Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: FFL341 Tym on December 12, 2000, 02:34:00 PM
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Many times I cannot get the lock to follow my target. My view still looks at the empty sky, in locked view, while my target gets away.
It does not have to do with field of view as the target can still be seen, If I switch to another view. Is that a bug or a feature ? If that's a feature what is it supposed to model ?
Most of the time it seems that the lock is one "movement" late. Just as if "lag" was the cause.
Worst, I frequently get a "rudder" view. My eyes look down to the floor of the plane. Am I vomiting of fainting ? Most of the time it's after a black out.
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I am not so well into padlock, but I seem to remember someone posting something similar as this. I believe the problem was when the target was above you AH would change between the snap views in a not so clever way.
As for the "vomiting" view (hehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) this is AH's way of model pilot injury; slow blackouts combined with head swinging down. To be certain try press Ctrl+D next time it happens and see if "pilot" is written in red.
You will eventually die from your wounds in some minutes.
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Thank you Sneffens...
This sim is very disturbing a mixed bag of good features and roughly finished others...
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FFL341 Tym
Intelligence Officer
341 "Alsace" Squadron
http://sqdr341.free.fr
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I dont even know how to use padlock... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Tym... my guess is an extremely small part of the community uses padlock.
Have a go without it +)
AKSKurj
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Hmmm, it is possible that a hard blackout is breaking the padlock and leaving you looking at the floor. I'll have to test this and see, as I have only used padlock for training purposes. Are you always locking enemy planes, or are you trying to lock friendlies? When you say the target can "still be seen", do you mean the icon or the actual plane?
If you really want good situational awareness in Aces High, you need to learn the snap-view system. Aces High has the best viewing system I have ever seen, it's just a matter of picking modes to suit your tastes. That said, although tougher to learn, the snap view system is the most efficient. It will allow you to follow your opponent in your views while having a good orientation of your aircraft while still maintaining good SA.
I'll try out the padlock in the arena and see if I can duplicate any of the issues you are having.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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The padalock will shut off when the airplane goes out of view behind your nose, behind your tail, or under you.
Practice against the drones, though you need to set the padalock to friendly targeting.
Hans.
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Lephturn
I've always found your comments to be excellent sources of info. But several times now, you've made the assertion that AH has the best view system of any sim 'you have ever seen'...which sorta raises the question of how many sims this might be! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Or do you mean the best views of the WW2 sims?
The reason I ask is that my writing in this gaming genre makes it necessary that I be familiar with what the market has to offer...that, and the fact that viewing systems has always been a favorite subject of mine. While I think the fixed views in AH are well done as is the ability to customize them for a specific aircraft, I do not think that qualifies Ah as the 'best' in the viewing department.
I'm not sure what sim would hold that title, but Falcon4 comes about as close as any for my money.
Now, if AH were to implement a player to target external view and a workable padlock...then I'd be willing to rethink the question!!
Andy
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Now, if AH were to implement a player to target external view and a workable padlock...then I'd be willing to rethink the question!!
Geez Andy.. you mean in real life you can jump out of your aircraft, take a good long 'player-target' view, then jump back in the plane to continue the fight?
Wow.. I knew those new US fighters were advanced, but that's fantastic ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think what Lephturn meant to say is that AH has the best 'realistic' viewing options of any sim he's flown. i.e. no 'magic' or 'God' views when in fighters etc.
Well, except for the 6 view, that is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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IMO padlock is just a computerized form of target fixation. I can Padlock just fine with my hat switch thank you.
I've played many flight sims from Harrier Jump Jet on a 286 to Falcon 3, Aces of the pacific, Red baron, to every boxed ww2 sim rerleased in the last 2 years, falcon 4, Air Warrior, and now aces high.
Throwing out the external (unrealistic) views Aces is by far the best view system I've used. Air Warrior gave the ability to completely remove obstructions (cept for front windscreen guages etc) which is unrealistic... The customizability of the AH views makes it tops in my books.
AKskurj
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Oh boy... Andy did you open a Big Ole Can of Worms.
Yes there are games out there with view systems that have very interesting and configureable view systems.
But! Are they competitive, player versus player online games? At least as their primary intent and focus?(not including small H2H functions)
You of all people Andy, should know the old axiom.
"Lose sight, lose fight"
How do you do this in a game like Aces High, without giving an artifical advantage to players using systems like Padlock?
And all you pro-Padlock players, please don't try to convince me that Padlock simulates how a pilots eye's work. It doesn't. A pilots eye's won't track a bandit thru area's where the pilot loses sight of the enemy (ie under the tail, behind a wing, etc.) and then continuously and effortlessly picks the "lock" back up when the enemy comes back into view.
And thats just one of the "magic" tricks that most padlock systems in todays games have. Others call it a "crutch".
So what Hitech tried too do, was build a padlock system that does not confer an artifical advantage to padlock users, while still maintaining functionality.
Did it succeed? Not to listen to Padlock users, and I don't use them myself.
It sounds like Tym's problem, is that he's losing lock (the enemy con is disappearing just for a second behind an obstruction) and he needs to relock the target.
My advice to Tym is to learn to use the normal view system. In a multi enemy environment like AH, padlock just gets you killed.
But Andy, what would you do to make the current padlock system "workable", without being unrealistic and confering advantages to a padlock player?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Hi all,
I warmly thank Snefens for his clever insights.
As for padlock, I don't think a well implemented padlock would be an error. The way it is there is a slight problem I think.
It may not be the best of thing to rely on it, I know. But it would be nice if you were not left the nose in the sky when you lose track, or worse still tracking a phantom plane... I think it is just a little bug to be cleaned off.
I do not want any unfair advantage using it, still anybody can use it, can't they ?
I have a sicking feeling this thread shows some "elitism" on the part of too many people. I note that the more helpful are the less elitist... This is something that always kept me away from those arena games. It seems that AH is just attracting those very same people. A pity... I guess I'll hapilly remain a dweeb...
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FFL341 Tym
Intelligence Officer
341 "Alsace" Squadron
http://sqdr341.free.fr
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'Can of worms'...? No...not as long as we have spirited, yet considerate responses as the last posts have shown.
When it comes to viewing systems, we all get to pick the one we like the best...or we should get to pick one. Each person's take on 'what it really looks like' is unique, and it would be truly wonderful if a sim offered all choices to its players. But, they don't.
AH probably has the most inclusive, most adaptive set of fixed views I've ever seen. They are very well done.
But do fixed views provide a feel for 'what it looks like for real'?
I don't think so, and I've written much on why. I don't try to persuade anyone to forego their own preference...I try to explain how the RL BFM experience can best be replicated in a sim.
I go back to my RL experience and use that to explain how BFM is taught in RL...how the student is taught to visualize the three dimensional environment...how advantage and disadvantage is conferred through split-plane maneuvering.
Is it possible to do that in a sim? To a great extent, yes. It's called the 'player to target' external view. It provides essentially the same perspective on an engagement that the RL BFM instructor does when he uses stick models (or his hands)...and in today's high tech world, that is still how BFM is taught.
I have always thought that if we took two players of equal competence...one who favored fixed views, the other one who uses the external...and let them duke it out, the external guy would be in the other's chili...every time!
Why? Because the external view provides as much of the whole picture as is possible...the fixed view can't (without constant switching views).
To me, the challenge in using fixed views is in manipulating the views. The advantage goes to the person with the most configurable flight stick/throttle...the person that has to use the key board is at a disadvantage. It's all a matter of time. If you want to know the academics of this, see my BFM articles that go into the OODA Loop concept ("It's All a Matter of Perspective" series, Air Combat Corner, www.simhq.com). (http://www.simhq.com).)
This view management becomes the focus in BFM when using the fixed views...as Verm says, "Lose sight, lose fight". This is all well and true. Keeping a tally is obviously critical.
But so is lift vector control and horizon awareness...and here the fixed viewing system is less effective.
The result...in my opinion...is that the fixed view folks spend more time in manipulating the views to maintain a tally than they do in lift vector orientation. It's not that they don't understand BFM...it's just the limitation of the views...the fixed view simply does provide enough of the 'big picture' in any one look.
The external player target view does...at least as much as we can expect considering the limitations of a computer monitor.
Folks have been anti-external for a good ten years now...much of it began with anti-cheat issues when on-line play became popular with Falcon3.
Others put aside the view on the grounds that it is 'unrealistic'. While I fully support their freedom of choice in the matter, at some point, the issue gets academic. That's what I tried to get into in my articles.
One other issue crops up in this discussion...the one of situational awareness (SA). Fixed view folks say that they have better SA because they can slew the view around to watch what's going on around them. No argument there...the fixed view system does that well...unlike the padlock or external system.
The problem is that in RL, once engaged, pilots have little opportunity to 'scan around'. It just doesn't happen...at least not much. That's what wingmen are for!
It's a shame that you guys with all your super enthusiasm cannot experience a furball for real. I've been in fights where upwards of 30 aircraft all came together at once...all with one objective in mind...killing the bandit! SA? Forget it...you won't believe how that goes out the window once the fight starts. Each pilot has three goals...pick out a target and kill it...keep from being someone else's target...and keep from running into somebody else.
I've seen all three goals met...and not met.
So, where are we in all this? I'd like to see two things. One, everyone be as smart as possible about how BFM is flown...and second, that we all afford each other the option of picking how we make that happen.
Fixed views, padlock, external...no matter. Let's just have some fun and be as inclusive as we can in the process!
Andy
[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 12-26-2000).]
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No No Tym, Verm maybe did come out a little strong +)
IMO padlock has never issued anyone an unfair advantage. Its magical abilities to track a target through sections of the sky obscured are IMO outweighed by the ease of fixation.
I really haven't tried the padlock system in Aces. I used to use the padlock in Falcon 3.0 years ago, but I found myself getting sooo disoriented it was useless to me in the end. My first experience with a game without padlock was good old Flying Circus!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) After that came Air Warrior, and I've never looked back!
Every sim or game offers padlock view these days, and frankly I don't use it at all, I have found my own control of the pilot's eyes much more intuitive (plus it doesn't make me sick.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) )
I suggest you all step away from this thread ASAP!! better yet close eet. This is one of the most abrasive arguements in flight sims today, and we don't want that Hengist dude in here do we?
P.S. I'll mess with padlock and see if i can find out what u mean Tym.
AKskurj
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I thank you SKurj and Andy Bush for your "positive" posts. The view system should be as realistic as possible, padlock included, enough said.
Now the question about the disadvantage one gets by using a padlock is another topic entirely. I know alot of virtual pilots that used the padlock in a sim, and left it behind in Aces High. There's nothing with it for me : it's likely padlock is simply reflecting lack of SA (focusing on only one target). But if one is included (I think it should be), it must be a good one... Now for the definition of good, every one is feft to his opinion.
But please, don't simply tell : "padlock's for dweed", it's useless.
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FFL341 Tym
Intelligence Officer
341 "Alsace" Squadron
http://sqdr341.free.fr
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I just went back and re-read my post.
I didn't call any names, didn't call anyone dweeb, and at worst said that padlock was a "crutch". Nothing more.
Sorry if I offended Tym.
But if that bothers you so much, your not gonna last long in the shark feeding frenzies around here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm
Sorry..I just noticed your question at the end of your post.
For starters, I'm not a big padlock fan. Most padlocks give me the heebie-jeebies...all I do is lawndart myself! Falcon4 is the exception. I think its padlock options are about as good as any sim made.
Perhaps the most common objection to padlocks is when the view stays 'locked' when the target fly behind an obstruction (usually aircraft structure). The typical fix is to have the padlock revert to the forward view after some short period of time. I consider this reversion back to the forward view to be worse than the problem that it was supposed to fix! In RL, if the target flew out of view, the last thing we did was look back forward.
What did we do? Two things come to mind. One, we continued to project the target movement along its last seen flight path and watched for it to come back into view (in this case, I am assuming no movement of the flight controls during this time), and second, we kept looking in that general area as we then made a control input designed to move the offending aircraft structure out of the way (such as a roll or rudder input to yaw the tail). In either case, we usually kept looking in the direction of the target.
One exception to this was when the target went out of view as it overshot at our six o'clock. If the overshoot was rapid enough, we would quickly roll in the opposite direction and look back to where we expected the overshooting target to be.
I have not used the AH padlock much myself since I've tried to learn the fixed view technique (without much success, I might note!), so I'm not really qualified to suggest a fix for it.
The one aspect of it that I do not care for is the lack of a fluid panning motion. At present, the padlock seems to be more of an 'automatic view changer' than anything else.
But I do appreciate the time and effort that HTC put into its development...maybe sometime they might make it more to the liking of the folks that want to use it.
Andy
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Andy,
I agree with your assertion that someone using an external player-target view has a significant advantage over someone using fixed views. There is still, clearly, some debate about whether such a view should be included in a sim or not. It's a valid point of discussion, although personally it removes some of the immersion factor. I get the sense of watching a movie rather than flying a plane when using the external views in a sim.
The player-target view also acts as a kind of super-padlock. The biggest concern that I've heard of regarding "perfect" padlock views is that they eliminate the chance to surprise your opponent by an out of view manuever. It seems like that could be solved with a padlock view that tracks what it last saw or simply stops tracking if it loses sight, but an external view has no such problem.
Regarding SA, I think the ability to take a quick look around is very critical. In a multiplane environment where new bogies are constantly appearing, the ability to quickly scan around is a key to not getting bounced yourself. That's the big reason that I use the fixed (adjustable) views, so I'd insist that any padlock feature allow you to scan the fixed views and return rather than having to unlock or switch modes or whatever.
Finally, I'd submit that the perfect view system for jet combat sims such as Falcon 4 (an awesome sim btw!) might be different than those in a prop sim. This is simply because the two types of combat environments are wildly different. In jets you have the advantage of better information going into the fight, but the combats are mind numbing in their speed and intensity. In props, you have more time, although this can work both for you and against you.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the helmet that just lets me look where I want to look (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) We've got one in the lab, but the resolution is poor and the price tag is astounding. Once we solve that, we'll get to work on artifical gravity so all these guys can have the fun of looking over their shoulder while pulling 4 G's.
Soft Landings!
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How many of you ever played with NO views but a forward view? I've done this several times in the TA by disabling my hat views...guess what, your SA INCREASES 10 fold.
I'm against using, or training anyone to use any sort of target lock on any sim, simply because it distracts what the goal of good flying is, Situational Awareness.
Try flying with only a forward view for a few days in the TA, you'll see your SA become sharp as a wet-stone knife.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
How many of you ever played with NO views but a forward view? I've done this several times in the TA by disabling my hat views...guess what, your SA INCREASES 10 fold.
I'm against using, or training anyone to use any sort of target lock on any sim, simply because it distracts what the goal of good flying is, Situational Awareness.
Try flying with only a forward view for a few days in the TA, you'll see your SA become sharp as a wet-stone knife.
That's whack. What do you do when you avoid a HO shot and then pull back? How do you know if the bogey is egressing upward or turning back quickly? Use the force?
If you getting stalked, you would have to change your entire flight style to accomodate the fact you cant see when he makes his run at you.
I personally think you would pick up bad habits doing this, although it would teach you to be really aggressive.
X2
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Hmmm, missed this one a while back I see.
Andy, I do think, in my opinion, AH has the best view system I have seen in a flight sim for the PC. I have played a few in my time, although I'm sure all here have. Although I don't have F4, there have been a few jet sims I tried, such as F-15, F/A-18, and USAF. I've played stuff like Fighter Duel, Longbow I and II, and much, much more. While I don't claim to be an expert in building view systems (though I would certainly consider one of my squaddies and expert), I do have my own opinions. When I make statements like that, I do try to be clear that it is only my opinion, so I think that's fair. I guess in the post you replied to, I should have made the point more clearly that this was my opinion only. However the answer is yes, I do honestly think it is the best view system I have ever seen in a PC air combat simulation.
I truly feel that the fixed view system that HT and Pyro developed first for WB, and have evolved in AH is the best thing going. This view system allows me to do with my thumb what I would normally do with my neck and eyeballs. I think that's a good thing, and I certainly find it preferable to the other systems I have tried. While it may have steeper learning curve, the fixed view system gives me the speed, flexibility, and feedback I need for a good view system. No other system I have tried gives me those things. No padlock system gives me the instant PHYSICAL feedback that the fixed view system provides, nor can it. It's the closest I think you can come to moving your eyes and head.
I guess this all comes down to what we consider "best". My definition of "best", is the one that makes the most sense, is easy to use, and is as realistic as possible. I think we agree on the facts, just not what is "best". As you mention, the player-target external view is a great tool for teaching BFM and ACM. It would be great to add them to the film viewer for teaching purposes. If the goal was to come up with the best teaching tool, I would agree that a player-target external view system such as you describe would be the best solution. However, for an air combat simulation that strives for some type of realism, I don't think it is proper. What is "best" depends on what your goal is, and I think simulating air combat is the goal in a game like AH, not teaching it.
I want a simulation that models the strengths and weaknesses of WW2 combat aircraft, at least as many of those attributes as is reasonable. Any external view system instantly destroys one set of attributes that play a very large part in such combat, and that is visibility. It SHOULD be harder to track a bogey in a Wildcat than a P-51. Heck, you want good BFM and ACM... well so do I. If you have an external view system what happens to all of those maneuvers that are specifically designed to work because you make the other guy lose sight? Wouldn't you say a pilot's skills were lacking if he didn't know any ACM designed to let him escape by extending to the target's blind side? I think that's a big part of air combat, and it's not a part I want to see eliminated by an external view system.
We all have opinions, and many of them are different. Though we disagree, it is great to debate these issues from time to time in a civil manner. <S> For the discussion and for the great information you provide on these boards as well.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-05-2001).]
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Hey Andy, good to see you!
I always tried to use padlock when I first started flying, but once I got used to the numpad view system, it's all I've ever used.
It works well for me in SDOE, Jane's, EAW, and seems to work pretty nicely in AH.
The ones I haven't liked are the Rowan sims, just because they don't give you a darn 5+8 numpad 45 degree view forward and up. It's either forward, or straight up.
Andy, once you get used to it, you'll catch people just inside the full 90 degree straight up view. You know you're in a turn with'em.
Then, if you start reeling them in, you'll notice you need to switch to the 5+8 view, and then when you notice you need to switch to the straight-ahead view, you start to get a little warm, runny feeling inside!
I've found that using numpad views is the only way I can tell where I'm at in the three-dimensional world.
And it's not really that big of a hassle to check six, or more accurately, about 4:30 and 7:30, due to the seat back and back of cockpit.
Plus, there's nothing like rolling the wings perpenicular, pulling back on the stick, and using numpad 5 to do a really quick "cover your butt" scan of the sky when looking for bandits.
I don't know. I've never been able to use padlock, because it totally disorients me, and I have no idea which way the nose of my aircraft it's pointed, and then I start losing the "feel" of how fast I'm flying, in which geometric plane, and then I get on the verge of stalling but I don't know why, etc.
And I don't know about padlock having an advantage. I know in SDOE I would use the padlock just to get in the general vicinity of the bandit, and then once I spied them visually, I'd go to numpad view.
Once engaged in a fight, I don't think the padlock fella had any advantage on me at all. Hell, I know where I am, and I know where he is, and I check for his buddies ever now and again, and rely on my squaddies to call out anything really bad.
You're probably right though Andy, an outside view probably would make a difference in a fight though, just because you could anticipate a little quicker, and use the three dimensions to your advantage.
That's probably why it's easier to pilot a NASCAR Cup Car in arcade mode as opposed to the through-the-windshield view.
Anyway, didn't mean to talk so long, but keep playing with the numpad view system, and try getting used to that "reelin'em in" feeling of going from 90 degrees up, then to 45 degrees, and then straight ahead.
Obviously if you aren't "reelin'em in," you're aren't turning with them, and it's time to put down the beer and try something different.
Good to hear from you!
Mk
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How many of you ever played with NO views but a forward view? I've done this several times in the TA by disabling my hat views...guess what, your SA INCREASES 10 fold.
Better still, disable ALL your views. That's right, as you head into that merge, turn your monitor off.
You'll find that you can maneuver into the kill zone just by using your sense of smell.
Then again, I usually hunt Rooks and Knights, so smelling your opponent may be easier for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And if he does manage to beat you..... you never know it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously though, disabling all but your front view is, IMHO, a bad idea. It might be good for your SA but it will be real bad for your BFM. Why? Well having only front view you may find you tend to just fly in the same flight plane as your opponent, trying to simply outturn him and bring him into your front view.
Hud BFM = BAD!
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 01-07-2001).]
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I just thought I might add something here to hash around.
IMO the padlock mode tends to cause a player to engage in high-g (hence e burning) manuvers (TnB). The snap views tend to favor the E fight (BnZ). In any flight sim I've played I've found this to be the case; the padlock view generally results in the pilot trying to pull as many Gs as possible to get behind the bandit. On the other hand, the snap view system generally favors the pilot who attempts to maximize his E by performing vertical manuvers (yo-yos, zoom climb, hammerhead, chandelle, etc).
I would say that if I were flying a zero the padlock would be very useful since any fighter that attempts to turn with you will likely be at a major disadvantage. If a were a p51, however, the padlock would probably result in a spin. (Inverted flat spin with my luck. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
This is just something to hash around. What do the rest of you think?
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS