Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rasker on November 11, 2004, 12:27:49 PM
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http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/Ki84Ia.htm
There used to be a lot of info up on the Airwarriors Ki84, still looking for it tho.
Nakajima Ki-84Ia Hayate (Frank)
Plane: Nakajima Ki-84Ia Hayate (Frank)
Weight (Empty/Loaded/Max): 5,864lb/ 7,955lb / 8,576lb
Wing Area: 226sq ft
Wing Loading: 25.9lb/sq ft / 35.2lb/sq ft / 37.9lb/sq ft
Length: 32' 7"
Span: 36' 10"
Wing Aspect: 6.0
Engine: 1800hp Nakajima Ha-45 Radial
Flaps: 3 settings
Visibility:
Front: Good
Sides: Excellent
Rear: Good
Control Feel:
Slow: Poor roll, Good Rudder/Elevator
Near Sustained: Poor roll, Good Rudder/Elevator
Fast: Poor roll, Good Rudder/Elevator
Stall Speed 1k (No Flaps/Full Flaps) 90/80mph
Guns:
type/ammo ROF Duration WB Punch Muzzle Velocity Ammo/Gun
Primary: 2x12.7mm Type 1 Ho-103 MG 10.8/s 23.3s 2.7x.50cal/ping 2,560ft/s 250
Secondary: 2x20mm Type 1 Ho-5 Cannon 12.8/s 11.8s 3.2x20mm/ping 2,460ft/s 150
Ordnance:
0: none
1: 2x100lb
2: 2x500lb
3: none
Fuel Time/Percent: 52 seconds/percent
Power/weight (Empty/Loaded/Max): 3/2lb/hp / 4.4lb/hp / 4.8lb/hp
Corner Velocity: 270mph
Durability: Fair
WEP time: 10 minutes
Maximum Angle-of-Attack (no flaps/full flaps): 17/17 degrees
Wing Incidence Angle (no flaps/full flaps): 3/4 degrees
Accleleration:
1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
Stall-200mph 13.8s 14.9s 17.6s 22.7s
150mph-200mph 7.2s 8.1s 10.4s 13.9s
200mph-250mph 10.1s 10.9s 14.4s 21.1s
250mph-300mph 19.7s 22.1s 32.5s 66.0s
Climb:
1k-5k: 41s
5k-10k: 56s
10k-15k: 70s
Zoom Climb:
1k 400mph: +5800ft
1k 300mph: +3700ft
Dive:
Max Speed After 30s After 60s
15,000ft to 10,000ft 360mph 340mph 335mph
15,000ft to 5,000ft 490mph 365mph 355mph
10,000ft to 5,000ft 395mph 355mph 350mph
10,000ft to 1,000ft 495mph 380mph 360mph
5,000ft to 1,000ft 380mph 360mph 350mph
Max Speed
1,000ft 5,000ft
Climbing before levelling 350mph 340mph
Diving before levelling 350mph 340mph
Turn Performance
300mph 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 12.5s 14.1s 15.5s 16.7s
Two 360s 29.0s 32.3s 36.4s 41.2s
250mph
One 360 13.0s 14.3s 15.6s 18.8s
Two 360s 30.4s 32.0s 36.2s 45.2s
Sustained
No Flaps 17.4s 18.9s 21.7s 25.8s
Full Flaps 16.4s 18.0s 20.4s 24.8s
Best Flap full full full full
Speed/best 110mph 115mph 115mph 105mph
Corner Speed and Radii (1,000ft):
Speed: 270mph
Radius: 531ft
Sustained Turn Speed: 160mph
Sustained Turn Radius: 650ft
Full Flaps Speed: 115mph
Full Flaps Radius: 440ft
Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees 5.8s 6.0s 6.9s 7.7s
360 degrees 13.1s 14.1s 15.9s 17.9s
Roll Rate:
150mph: 6.2s
200mph: 4.9s
250mph: 5.1s
300mph: 6.5s
350mph: 9.9s
400mph: 16.0s
Minimum Full-Flaps Full-Power Split-S altitude:
150mph: 900ft
200mph: 1100ft
250mph: 1500ft
300mph: 1900ft
Hoof's Tips and Opinions:
The Nakajima Ki84 could arguably be the best fighter in Warbirds, as it does so many things so well. Unlike the other excellent performer in Warbirds, the Lockheed P38L, this plane takes an experienced hand, and someone familiar with the plane to do well. There are just so many ways to fly this plane wrong.
The Ki84 was developed from the hard lessons of fighting America in the first years of WWII. The designers at Nakajima listened well to the pilots and battle reports of combat, and learned that the prime ingredients of a good fighter were firepower, diving ability, durability, acceleration, and above all: speed. They delivered in spades with the Ki84, and even kept the Ki84 highly maneuverable. Despite it's maneuverability compared to most of the planes it fought, the Ki84 was a rather unmaneuverable plane by Japanese standards, in fact Nakajima had to add the famous Butterfly Flaps to improve it's low speed maneuverability. And these flaps are the key to why this plane is so good.
The two main areas where people go wrong with the Ki84 are low speed and high speed turning. At low speed, most first timers in the Ki84 will forget the flaps, and get eaten alive by even 109Fs. At high speed the very effective elevators of the bird will cause you to turn quick, but burn E very rapidly. It helps to have flown the F4U or P51 extensively before flying the Ki84 as they will teach you the fine art of E retention in high speed maneuvering. And finally, it is real easy to forget to pull those flaps back in when done turning, thus slashing the plane's acceleration/speed abilities significantly.
Most airplane designs focus on one attribute to the detriment of others. A plane optimized for speed doesn't turn so well. The reason for this is that a low wing loading creates an excellent turning plane, but at the same time, all that extra wing area adds drag to the plane, decreasing its top speed. The solution used in the Ki43, and employed very successfully in the Ki84 was to use extendable flaps optimized for combat, thus effectively adding more wing area when extended at low speeds for turning purposes. Naturally these flaps aren't as effective as regular flaps for landing purposes, but flaps designed for landing aren't designed with low drag in mind, as the idea is to *slow down* for landing, as well as provide more lift (thus allowing you to slow down even further before stalling). The Flaps are the key to the Ki84
The Ki84 is one of the fastest planes around, about 10mph faster than an F4U, and able to keep up with a P51 on the deck. It isn't the fastest plane, that honor goes to the infamous Dora, but she is one of the few that can extend reliably from most planes, and once away, can reverse and deal with that pesky Dora on her own grounds. This plane also dives quite well, with full elevator use clear up to 550mph. Unfortunately the ailerons tend to lock up at about 350mph, so be sure you are trimmed using auto-angle trim to ensure you don't die due to ailerons-trim-induced roll. This is important to remember when chasing/being chased by a good high speed roller (P38L, FW, F4U, P40E, P47), as it's often best to pull up and force the target/opponent to retreat/overshoot/burn E.
On the flip side, the Ki84 is rather light for its size, thus doesn't retain her speed above 350mph as well as other good divers. The P47, P51, F4U, and Dora will all dive faster than a Ki84, and will keep their speed for longer. The trade off? Acceleration. Weighing only 8000lbs loaded, the 1800hp engine can accelerate the Ki84 like a bullet, and her high sustained speed limit allows her to keep on accelerating until about 300mph or so (unlike other good accelerators like the Spit9 and 109F). A good tactic upon sighting a bogie is to zoom climb until at 150mph, and accelerate from there, you will get more energy overall than if you continue flying straight/level.
The Ki84, on the deck, can turn with a Spit9, and an F6F. But be careful getting into a sustained turn with these planes above 3,000ft. The Ki84, like the P39, loves to be low as her engine does not have a very good turbo (super?) charging, and thus her performance drops off with altitude. She can climb with a 109K up to 10k, from then on her climbing is not so good. Ironically, it is best to keep this bird above 7k, so you can use her awesome diving and zooming ability to best effect.
And finally, the Ki84 is the *best* vertical fighter out there. She has a low power/weight ratio, allowing her to zoom up almost 6000ft from 400mph, *and* she has the low wing loading to get that nose around once your follower has stalled out. The only other planes that can compete with her in the vertical are the Dora and 109K, both of which can't turn worth beans compared to the Ki84. The Spit9/109F both do quite well too, but the Ki84 can beat them both under 10k in a level turnfight.
Rules of thumb with the Ki84:
Flaps *in* when above 200mph
Flaps *out* if below 200mph and turning
Flaps back *in* when you stop turning
Don't turn with an F4F, P40, and Zero, the Ki43, or FM-2. Don't turn with a P38 or Spit5 above 3,000ft.
Fly her with Energy always in mind. She is the best E fighter in the game, but her E fighting ability is useless if you are 100ft on the deck at 150mph.
Barrel roll for guns defense. Her roll is perfectly timed for net lag, as she rolls just fast enough to allow net lag updates to throw the attacker off, and slow enough to make them think they can follow you. There's nothing like "convincing" a Dora to burn E for a bad shot, then following him up into the vertical after he misses, showing him why he shouldn't go vertical with a Ki84.
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here's something regarding the Airwarrior Ki84 from http://www.itga.com.au/~gnb/AW/AWTA/disparit.txt:
11. Ki-84 Frank
A wonderful all rounder in the PTO, few planes can match it and none
at all in all areas. Very fast (at some alt's, P51/P47 can beat it)
and capable of out turning all but the Zeke...it is a formiderable
opponent. Ammo load is good, with cannon included in the first 50%
but like the spit once this has gone you have popguns ;}
Climb rate is only fair, and it has BIG problems in a dive or at very
high speed, compressability can set in easy and the wings will pull
off in high G response at speed. It is a bit of a fuel hog and is not
able to sustain the kind of battle damage the USA Iron can, although
it is more durable than a Spitfire, but less so than a P51.
Combat Manuevre flaps mean you can turn really well over a wide range
of med-high speeds, but do watch the wings ok ? It has good vertical
performance in a fight, due not to great climb which is actually only
average, but due to it's ability to be handled at EXTREMELY low speed
over the top where others might stall out. And it is VERY fast don't
forget that ;} One of the best rolling scissors performers out there.
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Well, who wrote Warbirds?
:D
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and heres some speed and turn daius diagrams for the Ki84 and other early AW aicraft: http://www.cactus.org/AirWarrior/Library/AWInfo/EMDiagrams.html
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WarBird's was done on different data.
Pyro modeled it as being fast there whereas in AH it's a slug.
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I thought that Pyro had determined that the KI84-la engine was not reaching full power - and that he was going to patch it soon???
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I thought that Pyro had determined that the KI84-la engine was not reaching full power - and that he was going to patch it soon???
That happened on the day it was released. v2.01 Patch 1 fixed that.
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Originally posted by Rasker
Flaps: 3 settings
The one we have here have 2 settings, 1 is 15 deg and the second is 30 deg.
So what are the 3 modes for ki-84 in wb?
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Actually the Ki-84 had 2 variants on the flap (The ratio of them is unknown).
The First one had 2 notches (15/30deg, another source 13/35deg).
The second one had 3 notches (15/35/53deg).
The 53 deg setting, was used as air brake after landing.
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The one we have has 3 settings. You just have to be slow enough to use them. 1 notch starts at 167 or so (same speed as gear down), second notch about 15-20mph less, maybe more (guesstimating here), and the 3rd notch comes out only when you're really slow, like say 100 or less (have not done tests on when notch 3 comes out)
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Originally posted by 1K3
So what are the 3 modes for ki-84 in wb?
I remember one Ki-84 model in WB, but FreeHost WB.
It was fastest plane in 1945 (It was Rolling Plane Set in WB FH - mean that aircrafts appear according to time they appear in RL during TOD).
It was fast as Yak-3, faster than P51-D. Only 1 prob - it was modeled like with unprotected fuel tanks. So pilots in WB FH call Ki-84 "flying lighter" :D :D :D
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The AW threads got me looking through my stuff, thought it would be interesting to compare the AW write up with the Warbirds writeup. Forgive it not being "cleaned up", it was turned into a .txt file for inclusion in the AWII manual and they just kept it all the way through AWMV without change (since the FM never changed anyway).
Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate "Frank"\
\
The Ki-84 is a fighter with few flaws; it's fast, maneuverable, and lethal.\
\
History\
\
Late in the war, after taking a pounding at the hands of powerful,
heavily armed, and durable American aircraft, the Japanese Army wanted a fighter
that could compete with heavy U.S. airborne iron on its own terms. In design at
least, they certainly succeeded with the Ki-84. Japan's badly decimated
aircraft industry, however, was not up to the task of producing the plane. Had
the Frank not suffered from appalling manufacturing deficiencies, it certainly
would have been one of the greatest prop fighters of the Second World War.\
\
The Ki-84 in Air Warrior - Relaxed Realism\
Fortunately for Air Warrior Frank pilots, the game does not model the failures
of material and workmanship the actual Ki suffered. The Frank has a 1900
horsepower Homare engine in an airframe more than one ton lighter than the
Corsair. This gives the Frank excellent speed - faster than even the Mustang at
low altitudes - along with a good climb rate. The Frank can out-turn every
plane in the Pacific except the Zero, at low speeds, and the P-38 at high
speeds.\
\
The Ki is lethal, sporting two 20mm cannon in addition to two machine guns, but
its lethality drops sharply after 35% of its ammunition is gone. Nonetheless,
the total ammo load on a Frank is substantial.\
\
Most planes in Air Warrior come with distinct assets and limitations that
dictate the way you should fight when flying them. The Ki, however, is so
versatile that it appeals to energy fighters and turn-and-burn dogfighters
alike. It's main deficiency against American planes is durability, but that is
perhaps its only drawback.\
\
The Frank in Full Realism\
Opinions vary widely over the values and vices of the Frank in full realism.
Some call it, "the Focke Wulf of the Pacific," due to its mixture of great guns
and speed, combined with its nasty departure characteristics. The Ki's
fundamental structural limitations, compared to American fighters, become
more of an issue in full realism. Whereas an American fighter can pull as many
as 8 or 9 Gs briefly at high speed, a similar stress to the Frank's airframe
would rip a wing off.\
\
Virtues
\
The Ki-84 is extremely fast - the fastest fighter in the Pacific at the low to
medium altitudes where most battles take place in the online, network arena.
In addition, the Frank is extremely maneuverable, particularly at speeds between
150-250 knots. At these speeds, only a Zeke can outturn it. Lastly, the Ki has
good guns, an ample ammo load, and excellent range.\
\
Vices
\
The Frank is not a sturdy aircraft. At high speeds you constantly run the risk
of ripping its wings off in maneuvers, and its controls turn to mush above 350
knots. Also, the Ki will depart into violent spins if pushed beyond its low
speed limits. Stalling this airplane when its wings are not parallel to the
horizon is almost certain to induce a nasty spin.\
\
Finally, with its radial engine and high parasitic drag, the Ki accelerates
poorly, and bleeds energy badly - especially in straight, boom and zoom
maneuvers.\
\
Flying the Ki in Scenarios\
Initially, most pilots would regard the Frank as an ideal scenario fighter due
to its range, guns, ammo load, speed, and maneuverability. While it indeed
possesses these attributes, the Ki is absolutely terrible at the extreme
altitudes typical in scenario play. It can barely maintain level flight at
35,000 feet - a common height for combat air patrols in the better high altitude
fighters.\
\
Tips
\
Throttle back in nose-down turns, especially if you're entering the turn at high
speed. Many novice Ki pilots tend to enter compressibility, over control the
plane to compensate, and then rip the wings off when they regain control of the
aircraft. Watch your airspeed in high speed tail chases, especially against
American fighters. Again, compressibility is the enemy here; you will lose
control over your plane before the pilot in the American fighter will. If you
throttle back, or make constant, though slight, flight adjustments as you reach
speeds of 375 knots and above, you can often stave off or delay the onset of
compressibility.\
\
Armament: two, 20mm cannon; two, 12.7mm machine guns. Ammo load: 700
machine gun rounds; 240 cannon shells. Payload: One, 500lb bomb.\
\
^
Performance\
\
The Ki is extremely fast and has excellent turning ability at low to medium
altitudes. Above 20,000 feet, however, its performance attributes begin to
steadily diminish.\
\
~
Performance Comparison\
\
Up to 20,000 feet only the Corsair and the P-38 climb better than the Ki-84.
The Ki is faster than all Pacific theater types at low altitude, and only the
Mustang is faster at medium altitude. In the thin air, however, the Ki is far
from formidable.\
\
Despite its impressive high speed numbers, low speed turning is what the Ki does
best. Only the Zero can do it better. In high speed turning, however, heavy
American iron can best the Frank easily.\
\
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good advice from Widewing on flying 84 generally and vs. the La7 specifically [from another thread]:
It's apparent that the recent addition of the Ki-84 has generally gone unnoticed in its effectiveness at dealing with the La-7.
Against all aircraft:
Ki-84 - 1.34/1
La-7 - 1.29/1
Against each other:
Ki-84 - 1.08/1
La-7 - 0.92/1
That's quite interesting, the mighty La-7 doesn't dominate the Hayate. And, that's in spite of being nearly 50 mph faster on the deck.
We can discount the newbie argument, because there's plenty of newbies flying the Hayate.
It boils down to the Ki-84 having more strengths and less weaknesses than the La-7, especially when you know how to set up the Ki-84 for maximum performance.
Fly with 50% fuel max... Need more range, take drop tanks. Use manual trim. In manual trim the Hayate pilot is not fighting his own elevators at high speeds. At 50% fuel, the Ki-84 has similar range to the La-7 with full bags. Climb rate is virtually the same under these conditions. Roll rate goes to the Hayate, especially at medium to high speeds where it excels. Turning ability is no contest, The La-7 is badly outclassed. Scissoring with the Ki-84 is certain death. Should the La-7 pilot find himself with the Ki-84 above him or Co-E, he can always bunt over and try to dive clear. Well, the Hayate can dive too, and if its under manual trim, it can turn just as well as the Lavochkin at high speeds. Plus, if the La-7 driver isn't careful, he will have serious problems with control stiffening. In all probability, if the La-7 doesn't auger, he will be able to get out of gun range... And he better keep on running too if the Ki-84 doesn't take the bait and remains above him. If the La-7 wishes to reverse and engage, he'll have to climb. Climbing will make him slow and getting slow around the Ki-84 means getting dead.
Rope-a-dope; I've had a few La-7s try this. They died. Trying to rope a Hayate with decent E is not a good idea. If you guys think the Niki is the premier UFO, you haven't seen the Ki-84 fight in the vertical. We have compared the Niki and Hayate head-to-head and the Hayate is superior in every category of performance. Should you think that trying to rope the Hayate is a good idea, consider this: Long after the La-7 has stalled and tumbled out of its climb, the Ki-84 is still climbing with complete control in every flight axis, right down to 50 mph. Indeed, the Ki-84 is the king of the spiral climb. You can take off, and right from the runway, pull into a climbing spiral. Averaging almost 4k per minute, you can spiral up to 12k, and never go outside of the base perimeter!
So, the La-7 has but two advantages over the Hayate. Those are pure speed and level acceleration. It needs those advantages to survive, because it is equalled or inferior in every other measure of performance. The standard La-7 practice of taking the fight into the vertical doesn't work against the Ki-84. Suddenly, the Lavochkin pilot must learn use similar tactics that P-51 pilots must use against the Spit IX; stay fast, don't climb steeply and never turn hard. And those are survival tactics, not fight winning tactics.
In my opinion, the addition of the Ki-84 has significantly changed the dynamics of the MA, and changed it for the better.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks, Widewing. Very nice summation - exactly what I was looking for.
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Forgot one thing in AH the Ki-84 has mad range,even more so than the Focke Wulfs.
On a 100% fuel I can go 3 sectors and back, most ussually my guns run out very fast leaving me with the pea shooters and just flying aorund iwith fuel to spare.
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Heh, so if I snap my ailerons off trying to pull out of a dive is that because I have auto trim on or because I'm a useless noob? :)
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Originally posted by Rasker
and heres some speed and turn daius diagrams for the Ki84 and other early AW aicraft: http://www.cactus.org/AirWarrior/Library/AWInfo/EMDiagrams.html
Yowza, that's some old stuff I posted back in the AW2 days (hosted by GEnie for ~$4/hr). Glad to see the data is still around and people are finding it useful. CACTUS was going to shut down the site after I left, but I guess it didn't quite get fully purged.
The diagrams came from Stu Butts, an Air Force test pilot at the time. There's a fair amount of analysis that went in to some of these, but I can't say that they match the current plane data.
I've been thinking of getting involved with online flying once again and have been looking for where everyone went. Looks like AW is dead, WB is under new mgmt (?), and AH has some of the "old timers". Sorry for the off topic comments.
Jim Knutson
Once was Red Beard
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No problem bro, good to hear from a "legacy". Folks like you helped make combat flght sims what they are today!
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Someone mentioned that you should turn auto trim off when flying the ki-84. Does this mean you need to manually change trim for different situations or are there settings you can simply place and forget?
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From what I understand, auto combat trim compensates for traveling at different speeds. With that off, you will have to manually adjust settings when changing speeds.