Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: killnu on November 11, 2004, 07:59:41 PM
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i thought you would not be able to do that in AH2? guess i was wrong. or am i?
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Are you kidding me?
Since AH2 came ou thats all people do. Up down left right, pull back on stick as hard as posible to stall out and pray they dont auger.... Its shameless.
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not only dont they auger? they seem to end up following you as soon as you pass them with no loss of E at all?! very frustrating.
every time it has happened to me, they end up 400 off my 6, and as fast if not faster than before, dont matter if im diving, pulling up,level flight, they right there on my 6 after their plane goes into convulsions. would be amazing thing to see, real plane doing those kinda flop and twitches that fast...:mad:
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The death of ACM in AH. Welcome N00bs. :)
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ive seen "vets" do it :(
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The "vets" (which is a word I hate in here) do it because they know they can.
The noobs do it because thats all they know.
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Originally posted by killnu
not only dont they auger? they seem to end up following you as soon as you pass them with no loss of E at all?! very frustrating.
every time it has happened to me, they end up 400 off my 6, and as fast if not faster than before, dont matter if im diving, pulling up,level flight, they right there on my 6 after their plane goes into convulsions. would be amazing thing to see, real plane doing those kinda flop and twitches that fast...:mad:
I was Played AHII for the two week trial coming back from a lay off from AH, and I was flopping all over the place in a low slow turn fights. Just struggling to stay flying. The FM has changed some or the trim on the planes have gotten to be more important than it used to be.
The torque on some of the planes were more than i was used to. Like the spit xiv. when i got slow with I forgot to reset the trim and man what a handfull it was to turn.
I didn't think trim had that much affect of the flight of the plane as it should have on the stick, but thats jMHO.
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Not to be confused with a nice barrel roll though.
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Am I missing something here?
If I'm in front of you and I manuver onto your tail, aren't I doing my job?
Stick Stirring? I mean what exactly does that mean really? Does that mean that the guy you were following snap-rolled and you couldn't follow it so now you whine?
Or does it mean that they barrel rolled and jerked out of it? And you blew past?
I just don't get what it is that you want the guy to do... Just put on auto pilot so you can shoot him?
So far, from what I read on this board, I'm not supposed to boom 'n zoom, I'm not allowed to pull any moves if I'm your victim, I'm not allowed to vulch you if you're an idiot and can't figure out there are 35 red airplanes over your base. I'm not supposed to fly high because then I'm an Alt Monkey, I'm not allowed to shoot at the front of your plane because then I'm an H.O dweeb... and so on.
You dudes really should take two steps back and look at what you're saying. Because really what you're saying is that you don't like it when guys squirm out of your sights. And you don't think anyone should be allowed to shoot you down. At least thats what I'm reading.
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Stick Stirring - invision a Large Mouth Bass hooked on a line and the line is attached to your plane, the propeller is trying to reel in the fish yet he flops left, right, up, down and can not make up his mind which direction he wants to go! ( porpoising also comes to mind here!)
not to be confused with snap rolls, lag rolls, barrel rolls, and othe maneuvers like the scissors maneuver in which all are flown in smooth fluid motion, regardless if fast or slow.........
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not to be confused with snap rolls, lag rolls, barrel rolls, and othe maneuvers like the scissors maneuver in which all are flown in smooth fluid motion, regardless if fast or slow.........
Might I add with forethought to reverse the situation.
------------------------
CO CM daddog
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Noses in the wind since 1997.
daddog@hitechcreations.com
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If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. Mark Twain
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Originally posted by daddog
Might I add with forethought to reverse the situation.
ok daddaog,
I just woke up so this went right over my head, LOL! it is not registering in the noodle yet ;)
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LOL
:)
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Originally posted by KurtVW
Stick Stirring? I mean what exactly does that mean really?
Randomly and rabidly jerking your stick about in every direction in an uncontrolled manor. not only does it stall you but it produces lag and warps. not to be confused with lagitamate jinking.
the bigest issue I have with stick stiring is the warp it produces. its also not a lagitimate manuver. real wwII pilots didn't stick stir. they kicked their ruders they manuvered including jinking but they didn't stick stir (woulda been suicide).
I can live with Alt monkey If I had the patiants Ide climb to 30k to. i can live with HO dweebs. If I could aim that well Ide do it to. I despise stick stirers and wish they would bring back locking the controlls when it's done.
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It does happen at times when one is being chased by 4+ bandits, although not intentionally he goes to maneuver out of the way from 1 bandit to find he is flyinto another bandits fire and so on and so forth that he actually ends up doing a lil stick stirring, then one of the 4 if not all say hey nice stick stirring , or say you stick stirring dweeb or something of such, neglecting the fact that the 4 chasing the 1 looked more dweebish.............
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Originally posted by KurtVW
So far, from what I read on this board, I'm not supposed to boom 'n zoom, I'm not allowed to pull any moves if I'm your victim, I'm not allowed to vulch you if you're an idiot and can't figure out there are 35 red airplanes over your base. I'm not supposed to fly high because then I'm an Alt Monkey, I'm not allowed to shoot at the front of your plane because then I'm an H.O dweeb... and so on.
Sig Material.
Karaya
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Well, I guess I'm honored to be on your sig... Wait a minute.. Right next to ZAZEN?
Man, you sure know how to scar a guy.
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If i'm deep in the ****, I'll fly the plane to the absolute edge of lift barrier. If I stall out, it's purely by accident.
Btw, if you cut throttle as you come in the stick stirring creates a huge nice target in front of you which you don't overshoot too quickly.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
It does happen at times when one is being chased by 4+ bandits, although not intentionally he goes to maneuver out of the way from 1 bandit to find he is flyinto another bandits fire and so on and so forth that he actually ends up doing a lil stick stirring, then one of the 4 if not all say hey nice stick stirring , or say you stick stirring dweeb or something of such, neglecting the fact that the 4 chasing the 1 looked more dweebish.............
TC
a stick stiring dweeb is an entirely difrent animal. 1 on 1 you get on his six and his nose is bouncing every wich direction almost like he's starting to spin an all his axis at once then stops dead in space for 1 second then warps. these are delibrate not accidental. Ive seen guys pull up into a stall or roll or jink into a stall wich is all lagit. Ive seen noobs do what looks like stick stirin right into a spin wich is becuase they really don't know any better.
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Kurt nailed it. I get stick stirring whines in the MA constantly. All I do is an evasive barrel roll and 200 lights up.
Defensively, use the barrel roll to force your attacker to overshoot and pass you.
Initiate a barrel roll by rolling slightly and applying pitch. Keep the nose pitched to spiral around the axis of your flight path.
(http://www.ao.net/~chuck/atf/barrelr.jpg)
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agreed on the ACM evasives, but some of em really should burn more E, IMO
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It's my stick and I can play with it how I want to and as fast as I want to. So there. :lol
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sorry, kurt and rpm, i know what a barrel roll is, i do know some of that acm stuff, believe it or not. but, i also know that when a plane goes from from straight(we'll say 90 degress) to .5sec later to nose360, then 180, then 270then 90 and everywhere in between in matter of a second is nothing resembling a barrel roll. it is done on the same axis, straight line, no roll what so ever. does look like a fish out of water tho, well close.
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90-360-180-90 in a second? That's not stick stirring, eh heh heh heh.
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I NEVER stick stir :shifty eyes:
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Originally posted by killnu
not only dont they auger? they seem to end up following you as soon as you pass them with no loss of E at all?! very frustrating.
every time it has happened to me, they end up 400 off my 6, and as fast if not faster than before, dont matter if im diving, pulling up,level flight, they right there on my 6 after their plane goes into convulsions. would be amazing thing to see, real plane doing those kinda flop and twitches that fast...:mad:
If done properly the 38 can do a climbing turn (or rope) at least 90% of the time after this and give you the opportunity to re-six them .. That is IF they follow you up.. 8)
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Its just gaming the game. You should know it.
Another funny thing is when you chase an aircraft at 1000yds and suddenly it head-on you without any (apparent) maneuver and/or lateral separation.
Yup, gaming the game and lag, these are the problems.
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Originally posted by KurtVW
Well, I guess I'm honored to be on your sig... Wait a minute.. Right next to ZAZEN?
Man, you sure know how to scar a guy.
hehe. :rofl
Karaya
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Originally posted by KurtVW
Am I missing something here?
So far, from what I read on this board, I'm not supposed to boom 'n zoom, I'm not allowed to pull any moves if I'm your victim, I'm not allowed to vulch you if you're an idiot and can't figure out there are 35 red airplanes over your base. I'm not supposed to fly high because then I'm an Alt Monkey, I'm not allowed to shoot at the front of your plane because then I'm an H.O dweeb... and so on.
You dudes really should take two steps back and look at what you're saying. Because really what you're saying is that you don't like it when guys squirm out of your sights. And you don't think anyone should be allowed to shoot you down. At least thats what I'm reading.
Actually, I feel his pain. I'm not gonna make this the "anti-whine, whine", but there is a lot of comments like, "X country are all alt monkies, flies in hordes, vulches, too timid etc." I do get the feeling that a lot of people just like to kill baby seals without finding a baby seal on their 6 or at higher alt, or rolling with a pack of baby seals for protection. Lotta people want to tell other people how to enjoy THEIR $14.95.
For the stick stirring part, well, I think that might be part of the reason you get the "stop stroking your stick so fast" message and then your controls lock up. Can't say for sure, but whatever, it's a game. You get a 2nd and a 3rd and a 4th and a 5th life if that guy ends up on your 6 and kills you. Might be annoying, but we're not playing this game to win anything are we?
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i got to fight shane last night him in P40E me in Zeek and lol he made me look like a fool did a great barrel roll and got me stall out my zeek:eek: (S)
iv tryed the stick stirr and it works great but im trying to not do it because i no it causes Warps i dont realy care if it was used by WW2 pilots because well WW2 pilots did not dive bomb B17's but what i realy dont like is geting on a 190 and then he just jerking like madd not a barrel roll just floping around so fast that hes warping everware on my screen
what would be very cool would for the screen to start get all drunk look after spining to much
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stick stirring
is that the little umbrella thing in my drink
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the worst is when someone just flops all over the place when you are 200 off him. you cut throt and flaps to slow but he is just motionless and if you dont collide with him, you lose your possition.
best tactic is to just rake the crap outta the stirrer as he strats his 'manouver'. whats losing a few extra round compared to punishing a dweeb?
bat
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Mechanic - I wish someone would film this as HTC has said they have NEVER seen it.
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There seems to be only two tactics that most seem to employ in the MA. Running and Stick Stirring. Both are signs of players without any knowledge of air combat, the maneuvers or the tactics to employ them.
ack-ack
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Kev, do not misuderstand my statement, I didn't say I havn't seen a plane flop around, what I have said I have never seen one do to stick stearing.
HiTech
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i have been acused, but only because i fly the most unstable plane in ah 190d9.
many times i have pulled a turn and snap stalled, and try to recover as fast as i can, but the plane appears ot be "flopping"
oh well.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
There seems to be only two tactics that most seem to employ in the MA. Running and Stick Stirring. Both are signs of players without any knowledge of air combat, the maneuvers or the tactics to employ them.
ack-ack
The typical response to aircraft flopping in MA is stick strirring. You accused me once of stick stirring when, in fact, the la5 that I was flying stalled violently twice.
Whats called stick stirring here can many times be traced to connection problems, stalling, ACM etc.
Acetnt
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so how should a plane respond when it stalls? just fall nose down? not turn every which way moving along same axis? then keeping E, just leveling out and following you. somebody brought up control surfaces in MA on 200 to me, said plane should just fall straight down, is that correct? if so, those who have posted about stalling and regaining control are not what i was talking about.
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Originally posted by killnu
so how should a plane respond when it stalls? just fall nose down? not turn every which way moving along same axis? then keeping E, just leveling out and following you. somebody brought up control surfaces in MA on 200 to me, said plane should just fall straight down, is that correct? if so, those who have posted about stalling and regaining control are not what i was talking about.
No idea what stick stirring is, but I know there have been times where I've reacted to hard to a guy I didn't see until almost too late. Pulling hard into a turn I've high speed stalled, snap rolled it and come out of it nose low headed in the same direction.
I don't recall ever getting a shot off at the guy who scared me, but they tend to end up way out front of me.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack There seems to be only two tactics that most seem to employ in the MA. Running and Stick Stirring. Both are signs of players without any knowledge of air combat, the maneuvers or the tactics to employ them.
Wrong! Both show what a real pilot would do in a disadvantage situation.
"stick stirring": Shaw describes this quite well in his book (air combat: tactics and manouvering). If there is an enemy on your tail you do absolutely everything to get him off. Throw your stick from on corner to the other, step full rudder just to pull to the other side in the next moment. Push man and machine to the limit - you got nothing to loose! Coordinated smoothly flown manouvers are nice but belong to airhows, not dogfights. There is a USN pilots notice who describes the japanese as masters at the stick, coordinating turns with rudder etc. He says it was really nice to look at but also really easy to predict, hence to shoot down.
"running": Well, reality check again. The doctrin is: Only fight at your advantage. Those pilots who dashed into the fray doing all these fancy manouvers did not live to tell anybody. The great aces knew when to attack and when to disengage. Why were the planes getting faster and faster? Speed meant the luxury of disengaging at will which meant to control the fight. Dogfights aren't won by turning, turning is defensive manouver - if at all.
So, as a wanna be computer hero pilot you can whine about stick stirring and running. But that was how it was fought in the RL.
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Kiran, if you have seen a stick stir in game, you would know that is not what he is writing about. ill have to start filming...
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Kirin,
No one is complaining about the moves. They are complaining about the mini warps stick stirring generates
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I think we now have to coin a new description ...
We all know what "stick stirrin'" is ...
This is what I would call "stick stallin'" ...
I fought a guy one night and each time I got ~400 off his six, he yanked as hard as he could to induce this funky stall and cause me to overshoot, so as not to ram him ... cause its like they throw some serious air brakes on and stop in mid-air.
Each time I managed to not get into a bad position on the overshoot and get back onto his six. Well, about the 3rd time he did this (and he was doing it on purpose), I finally said screw it and held the trigger down on him and he finally exploded just before I would have rammed him.
Those who are defending or condoning this (very loose term) manuever are probably those who use it with regularity.
The only time I have ever seen a real plane pull this kind of trick is when watching aerobatic planes, and their recovery is never horizontal, but rather perpendicular, while falling to earth to regain airspeed.
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So far, from what I read on this board, I'm not supposed to boom 'n zoom, I'm not allowed to pull any moves if I'm your victim, I'm not allowed to vulch you if you're an idiot and can't figure out there are 35 red airplanes over your base. I'm not supposed to fly high because then I'm an Alt Monkey, I'm not allowed to shoot at the front of your plane because then I'm an H.O dweeb... and so on.
Welcome to AH2.
Turn off channel 200, and ignore the stuff you read on the BBS.
Fly the way you want, have fun the way you want too.
Fly low and knife fight if you are a Spit-Dweeb, Bore n Zoom if you are a Luftwhiner. HO if the other guy lets you, jerk your stick around if that is how you like to shake a bogey.
You may find me vulching you, back stabbing you, cherry picking you, gang banging you, or you may find me being vulched, back stabbed etc. But you won't find me whining on channel 200 or this BBS about how you want to fly or that you did something I didn't like. :)
But then I am not a "Honorable" pilot, who flies by some unwritten code, defined differently by different pilots.
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Reminds of the old CHIPS episode where the bad guy speeds by doing 90 mph and Ponch and John start their bikes. 3 seconds later - the next scene their right on the bad guys bumper.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Welcome to AH2.
Turn off channel 200, and ignore the stuff you read on the BBS.
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I concur - Well Put.
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Originally posted by killnu
so how should a plane respond when it stalls? just fall nose down? not turn every which way moving along same axis? then keeping E, just leveling out and following you. somebody brought up control surfaces in MA on 200 to me, said plane should just fall straight down, is that correct? if so, those who have posted about stalling and regaining control are not what i was talking about.
The result of a stall is dependent on the state of the aircraft at the time of the stall. Assuming both wings stall equally you would just go nose down. However more often than not in manuvering flight one wing will stall before the other creating an asymetrical lift problem which results in one wing dropping out. Stalling while a yaw force is applied results in a spin and so on including all kinds of combinations and variations of these 3 cases.
Also, the severity of the stall impacts the wings reaction as well. The aircraft and wing design play a role (cessnas are a lot more forgiving than Corsairs). Engine status - Power on, off, etc and in multi-engine planes asymetrical thrust can also come into play if one engine is producing more power than the other or if one is dead. In real life, the Corsair was known to be almost unrecoverable from a spin (and it behaves the same in AHII).
Anyone who told you a plane just drops straight out is clearly pulling answers from his rear-end. Thats farsical beyond explaination.
Volumes upon volumes have been written about this topic by far better authors than myself, but I figured as one of our MANY real world pilots in this game, my experience might help answer your question more than the make believe you got elsewhere..
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i apoligize if this was taken as a "whine", i really just wanted to know if you could stik stir in ah2 like you could in ah1. im sorry that some of you seem to want to ignore the fact that it happens. thats your deal. i do know what a barrel roll is, i know what acm is, i know what a HO is, and i know what a stick stirring plane looks like. simple as that.
thanks kurt for clearing up the response thing, that just further proves my point to stik stirring. ive stalled dang near everywhich way you can, and prolly made a few stalls up. :)
now ill just get it on film.:aok
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Originally posted by killnu
now ill just get it on film.:aok
Ok. But why?
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Let me tell you how I fight.
I will fly into a horde of 10 planes on my own.
I will stay and fight a fight i know i should lose.
I will HO, Vulch, and very rarley RAM if i have to.
BUT
If i am in a one on one, a fight between two pilots, alone, i will not do these things.
I have shot a guy up and blown his oil only to send out an and tell him to RTB. the fight is over, his plane is disabled, i dont care if i get the 'kill' or not.
I have been shot up and ditched and other pilots of great honour have flown over me as i ditch and NOT fired at my disabled aircraft.
You say about 'unwritten rules'. This is what i fight for. These unwritten rules are to the discretion of the plane who has won, not the plane who has fallen.
I have flown alongside the wing of an enemy who i have badly damaged and virtually waved my respects to him, then disengaged.
There is a cetain honour in dying and killing with grace, even if only vitually.
my point?
stick stirring is a way of unrealisticly avoiding an honourable death.
if you used this tactic in real life you would be a dead man.
if you didnt get shot you would stall to earth and crash.
I live for the fantasy that each engagement in AH2 is real. a real pilot is fighting against me for his life. I respect him and hope he respects me.
I respect his skills as i hope he respects mine.
when someone shows such a lack of air combat manouvers that they stall out and warp all over the place that respect is harder to give.
If you dont want to believe it is real combat, then just shoot AI morons down in IL-2 FB or something.
Im not trying to tell others how to spend and enjoy their money, just stating how my feelings are towards not playing with a true and noble heart.
ok, i'll be quiet now. have another puff on this big skin :D
all
batfink
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hiya arlo,
for those who seem to think it does not happen, its some acm (ie barrel roll) that ive nvr seen before. thats all. :) no other reason really. :D
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KillnU, the shame of it is, sometimes I get behind some of these guys that flop around like a fish, and as I frantically try to line up a shot because of my closing speed: "Dont move your controls rapidly!" ARRRRG . WTF is that? My stick doesnt cost $150 so I get peanalized for minor spiking? LOL, it doesnt happen too often, but it looked like a good opportunity to bring it up.
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Cheap stick to avoid at all cost: Logitech.
Cheap stick that works ok: Saitek.
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Sorry HiTech, wasn't direct at you thats why I put HTC.
Just remember talking to someone in the game from HTC and he asked for films as he had never seen it happening.
In fact right after talking to him two of us tried to reproduce it on film, and yup you guessed it - couldn't.
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Stick stirring in it's best form was at WB. That can't be done here because of the "Don't move your stick" code that kicks in.
You have no idea what it was like in WB, and EVERYONE did it. The plane would warp to different angles, jump positions. You couldn't sit back and track because it would warp from position to position. It sucked.
Few imploy the milder version here brought on with the FM revisions of AHII. Very tame in comparison. Gamey, but not a game breaker.
With the new gunnery just altering the flight path continually makes a six shot a biatch.
I saw a new way of gaming the evasisve the other day. The blackout/auto level evasive. Complete crap.
Chasing a G10 in a D9 he began a gentle decending spiral, balls to the wall. I was in lag at wep and had my blackout to the small circle maintaining the distance. When he straightened I'd be close to guns. But he slowly tightened his turn workin the manual trim into full blackout on the deck, held it there so the blackout locked in and then hit auto level.. Hell I was in full blackout in LAG.
That's bullcrap. THAT pissed me off.
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Batfink:
I a happy you like to fly in such a honorable manner and I salute you (really).
What grips me is when someone comes on the BBS or channel 200, and tells me I have to fly his way.
I would never let a bogey go, period, and I would shoot his chute if I could do so without blowing my E. :rofl
A good vulch session is as close to Nirvana as one can get. Although blowing a target fixated bogey off my team mates six is my favorite kill. Kinda funny that I have never had a team mate call me a gang-banger for shooting a bogey offa him, in fact, hard to beleive as it may be, I often get thanked. :D
In real life I am quite a nice guy, on-line I try to be about as ruthless and heartless an opponent as you could run into. If you fly well, I may give you a salute, but in all probability all you will get from me is tail full of 20mms. And don't try and talk to me on channel 200, I turn that thing off, I couldn't care less about listening to whines, and you won't hear mine. The pilots I personally respect the most fly like I do. Mean, heartless razor toting, scum, that shoot you in the back, then shoot your chute. :aok
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sir!
as long as you are honest about your online personality and fly true to yourself i respect that.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Batfink:
If you fly well, I may give you a salute,
Salute is my favorite toy... Sadly I VERY RARELY use it as a compliment. More often than not I use it as a taunt. Nothing can smoke a guys glasses up like vulching them then saluting them. Or if you're pretty sure its the same guy upping again, a real fun one is to salute them THEN vulch 'em.
Pretty much the only time a salute from me is a compliment is if I am in a bomber and someone makes a truely valiant effort to shoot me down and fails. I take pride in being a very good gunner. And I kill far more than I get killed in that role. Also, if someone is engaging my bombers and we beat the snot out of each other and I lose, thats going to earn an honest salute.
Any time I salute when I'm the one who lost, thats an honest one too... Getting cocky when you're in a chute is just kinda lame ;)
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I think I've seen it once in 3 years.
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i was high jug, inned on 2 low spits, in on trail one first, stick stir, zoom right past, in on 2nd spit, stick stir. zoomed up, repeated. one spit followed up, got on rope, back in on 2nd one, stick stir. he ended up 400 off 6 and tagged me. only one flight.:(
yes, it worked, i missed them, they lost the enemy on their 6, i acknowledge they did what ever it took to shake me(overshoot). this wasnt meant as much as a complaint about it, was meant as a question. i thought i read it wasnt going to be able to be done in ah2. that was it. i musta misread. no biggie.
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Stick stiring - LMFAO. OK from now on I promise to remain in steady - level flight at a constant speed so you can kill me!
:rolleyes:
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i dont need anybody to fly straight and level to kill them. heck, i expect them to fight back. but stik stirring, not what i expect normally. but, if you want to fly straight and level for me, go ahead, i wont mind one bit. :)
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Is that what that's called?! Looks cool from the guns of b26,27 ect.. I usually do a slow circle with the tail gun or gun i am on around his plane and kill him as he "stick stirs" himself into my rounds!:lol
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Originally posted by wrongwayric
Looks cool from the guns of b26,27 ect..
B27 :confused: :confused: :confused:
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i think he pressed a '2' not a '1'
kinda obvious :)
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Well of course thats what he meant to do...
But since I know you admire people who are true to themselves...
Well, I just wouldn't be me if I didn't exploit his error! :aok