Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: humble on November 12, 2004, 07:35:29 AM
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sigh.....
I simply suck (in 38 at least)....
http://www.azhacker.com/images/film75.ahf
http://www.azhacker.com/images/film70.ahf
I feel like in any other plane I own both those fights...lala in particular was flown just pitifully....I'm just a total 38 noob...
Obviously something is really wrong....:( :o :confused: :mad:
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Humble, I can't get the second film, the link does not work for me.
In the first film, you looked to be late on every merge, and you held your drop tanks (at least you had tanks in the film). I'll look closer later, and I may be wrong. You have to be more agressive than you were, and I no longer bother trying to run down an LA7. I climb out and let them run or wait for them to come back. Very quickly when you chase them as you did, your speed equalizes and eventually the LA7 gets faster, he extends and comes back with a speed advantage or an E advantage on that merge. Had you dropped your tanks and been more aggressive on the merge in the first half, you'd have had at least one or two shots I saw. When you go vertical like you did, use your flaps and get over faster. There was one point where you had him very slow, and had you gotten over a little faster you'd have hammered him there, and it would have been over.
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whoops...typo on 2nd link....(fixed)
I'm at work, I'll look at films tonight...
From what I remember the lala was above and taking a nose down shot on initial merge...had no problems there cept I goofed the shot....
on "remerge" after he extends I just blew chunks...just "processing" wrong...tweaked cause the lala driver was pathetic...even in a p40b I'd of cleaned him up both times...sigh.
I wasnt really trying for shots on 1st go around...maybe thats a problem...simply looking to gain angles equalize E state...just didnt convert the shot I set up...
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Humble ...
LOSE THE DROP TANKS !!! ... hehe
I think, had you not been strapped down with those drop tanks, both fights would have told a whole different story.
This really is the only mistake that I can honestly see. They were definately hampering you to the point that I can not critique anything else in these films ... it would not be fair.
Whenever I take the P-38 up, 99.999% of the time I only take 75% gas. It takes me to where I want to go (75% has good legs) and keeps me agile. If I am taking one up for base defense then I will drop the gas to 50%.
Don't give up on it ... your almost there, and when it hits ya ... well ... you will feel very powerfull in that machine.
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I usually fly with 50% and the DT's....
Whats funny is I'll fight the Ki-61/-1 hog/P51 with DT's no problem...obviously will drop em if I have to...
Think I just forgot em:eek: ....
Did I have em on during the spitty fight also??...have to check...
I'm not gonna give up on it...in fact curly (AKcurly) and I were yaking about flying them next tour exclusively. I just dont know if the joystick wall and dog will all survive the experience:D...
What so disheartening is I cant even "replay" the thing in my mind and have a clue. Normally if I lose a fight and the reason isnt obvious immediatley I can go back and review and go Ahhhhh...I had to much speed at the merge ...etc...
Best example of that is in the clip I posted at bottom of other 38 thread...you keep hereing bout how bad Ki (61) isin the vertical but I've learned the hard way to use it...the little wing over vs the spitty is something I never did until I finally hit it via "replay" with the well A,B,C dont work what the heck...so now I'll go "vert" even if I'm almost wallowing...
38 is most counter intuitive plane for me....
Thanks again for the help/comments....
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I saw the drop tanks on both films. It was painful watching you wallow around in your loops and wingovers (rolls).
50% with DTs is cool ... but ya gotta get rid of them if your really gonna fight the 38. What works for the 51 does not directly correlate to the 38 ... for just about everything.
If you want to make 1 or 2 passes with DTs, you might get away with it, but for the fights that you had in those 2 films ... not gonna work out to well. Response was like molasses from my viewpoint.
The thing that I always try to remember is that I am flying a BIG aircraft and try to keep that in mind at all times. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but should be a critical decision maker while flying and fighting.
Glad to see your gonna stick with it ... when get thru this, you will be one deadly pilot in this bird.
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Got the Spit film now. As Slapshot says, you MUST lose the tanks in fights like this. You may be able to fight P-47s with the tanks, but not Spitfires and Lavochkins.
I normally take 50% internal plus the drop tanks, and drop them no later than the second pass if I'm engaged with a plane such as a Spitfire or a Lavochkin. I only keep my tanks if I have EVERY advantage and am reasonably certain of a relatively easy kill, and even then only if I am a long way from home. If I am close to home, I'll drop them anyway. I'll also drop them if there is another enemy plane close enough to be a real threat.
Again, you must get more aggressive and move more quickly to get the kill. The P-38 is a large target, and you simply cannot afford to hang around and risk the enemy even getting a passing low percentage shot at you. Note that in both films, both planes took major control surfaces from your plane with relatively low percentage shots late in the fight. This is VERY common with the P-38 unless you have a large advantage and are simply playing with your food. The P-38 has plenty of ammo, and is a stable and accurate gun platform, don't hesitate to take good deflction shots if you have the chance.
You are getting closer to turning the corner, you are not that far off. The P-38 really takes a lot of time to master, I still have not mastered it, I'm only decent. You are correct that it does require you to fight very strictly to its advantages, and is flown like no other plane.
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Again, you must get more aggressive and move more quickly to get the kill.
This is what has been missing in the films and what I have been searching for ... and Savage hit the nail on the head.
Aggressive ... not like in a Spit and yank it all over the place ... just get busy and get right to it (without DTs ... ;)).
I too have not mastered the P-38, but in Tour 51 I did garner 580 kills vs 136 deaths with a K/D of 4.26 ... my proudest accomplishment in my AH career ... so take what I say with a grain of salt. I think we all have our own style, but share certain similarites when it comes down to fighting in the P-38.
I would love to hear from the likes of Ack-Ack, Delirium, Lazer, and a few other P-38 jocks on what they think of the films.
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Interesting points.....
I have a tendency to be a counter puncher...I'm used to being percieved as a "target". So I usually am defending and am pretty good at very aggresive reversals etc...on "normal" merges I tend to immediatley go angles and establish a "rear hemisphere" position and then watch and counter....
thanks again....
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I have been told the same....get more aggressive. At times I think I get too aggresive and that causes my undoing :) Heres a fight I had with Midnight in his Pony. I follow him because I'm just looking for a fight, he leads away because there was a nik in the area too. Most of this fight I fight in Lag because I gave up any advantages by chasing him so long. I think I start turning the tables on him, but go for a dumb shot and pretty much give it back to him. Even so I think in 80-90% of ponys ya run into I would have had him in the rope at the end but watch as he hammers the heck out of me at 75 knots ! My ponies fall out of the sky at under 100 ! Fun fight....even tho I lost... but it does show how aggressive you can get.
Mdjoe,P38 vs Midnight,P51 (http://www.lanncafe.dynu.com/maddog444th/mafia/midnight.zip)
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Humble: If you want a good transition ride to go from the ki61 to the P38 I sugguest you spend a tour in the new KI84. The 38 is very similar to the 84 in that it likes to win by getting slow. The other differences are pretty extreme, but this seems to be an essential move in both planes. Most of my kills in the 84 against the better pilots I've had to establish an advantage early by going verticle to get that speed down to 150 to drop flaps. The 38 only needs to get it's speed down to ~200, which makes things a little easier, but it's still the same approach to the fight. When you get slower faster those reversals you like so much get to play a big role in the TnB game, making the 38 a very fun ride to fight in. Just try going into a verticle scissors at such a low speed you hammerhead at the top for a quick sideways snapshot.
When you're learning just try to do high barrel rolls in every situation where an opponent has a shot on you to see when it works. You'd be supprised how many shots you can 'take away' and turn into a reversal in the 38.
-pellik
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Originally posted by pellik
Humble: If you want a good transition ride to go from the ki61 to the P38 I sugguest you spend a tour in the new KI84. The 38 is very similar to the 84 in that it likes to win by getting slow. The other differences are pretty extreme, but this seems to be an essential move in both planes. Most of my kills in the 84 against the better pilots I've had to establish an advantage early by going verticle to get that speed down to 150 to drop flaps. The 38 only needs to get it's speed down to ~200, which makes things a little easier, but it's still the same approach to the fight. When you get slower faster those reversals you like so much get to play a big role in the TnB game, making the 38 a very fun ride to fight in. Just try going into a verticle scissors at such a low speed you hammerhead at the top for a quick sideways snapshot.
When you're learning just try to do high barrel rolls in every situation where an opponent has a shot on you to see when it works. You'd be supprised how many shots you can 'take away' and turn into a reversal in the 38. -pellik
I've only been flying the Ki-61 for 3 or 4 weeks...I tend to fly em all in spurts...38 is really the only one I simply cant fly at all. I'll work with the barrel rolls...as for speed I tend to slow every plane down. The 38 actually stays fast to easily for me...I think the biggest issues I'm seeing in the 38 so far are....
1) you need to fly it to its strengths...as a "read and "react" angles type I'm almost always flying to the other guys weakness. So planes like Ki-61/F6/F4U-1/109G2/205 all "fit" me better since you can fly them any way.
2) I'm a "tail dangler"....I love to wave my prettythang out in the wind and rarely get it shot off (totally at least). Not only does the 38 have a BIG tail...it doesnt waggle all that well....
3) I tend to give/allow alot of "low percentage" shots, I tend to get away with them in other planes...but in the 38 there not all that low a percentage I guess....
4)Some of the correct moves in a 38 seem to be "counterintuitive" and I'm dumb as a brick...takes this old dog awhile to learn new tricks....
However,
I will endeavor to persevier (boy that spelling ought to make hitech proud:))
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All I can say is about avoiding shots, always have your rudder slipped in the direction your going, because it makes you a hell of a lot harder to hit.
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Originally posted by humble
I've only been flying the Ki-61 for 3 or 4 weeks...I tend to fly em all in spurts...38 is really the only one I simply cant fly at all. I'll work with the barrel rolls...as for speed I tend to slow every plane down. The 38 actually stays fast to easily for me...I think the biggest issues I'm seeing in the 38 so far are....
1) you need to fly it to its strengths...as a "read and "react" angles type I'm almost always flying to the other guys weakness. So planes like Ki-61/F6/F4U-1/109G2/205 all "fit" me better since you can fly them any way.
2) I'm a "tail dangler"....I love to wave my prettythang out in the wind and rarely get it shot off (totally at least). Not only does the 38 have a BIG tail...it doesnt waggle all that well....
3) I tend to give/allow alot of "low percentage" shots, I tend to get away with them in other planes...but in the 38 there not all that low a percentage I guess....
4)Some of the correct moves in a 38 seem to be "counterintuitive" and I'm dumb as a brick...takes this old dog awhile to learn new tricks....
LOL :)
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Originally posted by humble
I've only been flying the Ki-61 for 3 or 4 weeks...I tend to fly em all in spurts...38 is really the only one I simply cant fly at all. I'll work with the barrel rolls...as for speed I tend to slow every plane down. The 38 actually stays fast to easily for me...I think the biggest issues I'm seeing in the 38 so far are....
Keep hitting that flaps out button. Just don't stop. If they're not out full they arn't out enough. Full flaps and you're turning like a pro at 100mph.
1) you need to fly it to its strengths...as a "read and "react" angles type I'm almost always flying to the other guys weakness. So planes like Ki-61/F6/F4U-1/109G2/205 all "fit" me better since you can fly them any way.
The 38 offeres more range of flying style then any other plane in the game. It turn fights almost as well as a well flown spitV. It can beat 51s and 190s in E games. It out dives most of the plane set when it has to. It just wins stall fights. There really is no better plane for taking advantage of your opponents weaknesses. The 38s strengths won't win it many fights directly, but a good 38 pilot knows there is no plane in the game that he doesn't have some sort of advantage over. Basically, you're just wrong here.
2) I'm a "tail dangler"....I love to wave my prettythang out in the wind and rarely get it shot off (totally at least). Not only does the 38 have a BIG tail...it doesnt waggle all that well....
How good do you think you'll be at "tail dangling" when you get away with it in a 38? 38 pilots love reversals, the extra size just makes people over confident. You'll learn which reversals are dependent on luck and which ones really keep you out of their guns in this plane.
3) I tend to give/allow alot of "low percentage" shots, I tend to get away with them in other planes...but in the 38 there not all that low a percentage I guess....
The 38 is a very tough plane. You've got to watch out about taking hits in the tail, but other then that it can absorb quite a bit of punishment. Fortunately, reversals like the barrel roll expose only one engine and rudder and keep your tail hidden. You expose the side of your plane when they go to take a shot as part of the reversal. Even if they smoke your engine in this shot you've still got another.
4)Some of the correct moves in a 38 seem to be "counterintuitive" and I'm dumb as a brick...takes this old dog awhile to learn new tricks....
Find me in the MA sometime. I'll help you adjust your current move's timing for flying the 38. You're gonna have to react a little sooner, but you'll find it does most things much cleaner then most other rides. But basically, you want to keep going for the kill shot or quick kill reversals all the time. This plane puts on tremendous pressure when attacking, and is very hard to stick to unless things are totally co-E. Get as cocky and over agressive as you can and go for those nice deflection shots and 6 shots. No need to wimp out and turn away to force a HO. Just keep turning into your opponent and keep using high and low yo-yos and you'll be landing 10 kill sorties in it every day. But remember that it's not a 51 or la7. This thing doesn't win by building E, it wins by using it.
Keep at it. Once it clicks you're going to love the 38.
-pellik
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I'm gonna stick with it....
Agree and disagree with you on alot of it pellick...but again as I said I'm dumb as a brick sometimes. To me Ki-61 is much more dangerous than a 38...now a good 38 driver will dominate a Ki-61 in a 1 vs 1...simply a better plane.
Some of it is a different thought process....reversals I think for 1...in a Ki (or hog/jug/pony...etc). Where you are isnt relevent...i'm really just glad your there. I can reverse almost anybody in the game in a Ki....now the better sticks counter and often I'll end up in a 5 min knockdown stall fight and lose once the ki goes zero E....had a great fight like that last night.
In the 38 I think I need to be much more aware of where/what the cons doing...I need to make the "right" rev....subtely different for me.
I really dont do much of what I'd consider "barrel roll" reversals...dont even know if I know what a good one looks like...
I'll ceretainly look to see if your up....thanks for all the help....
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One thing no one mentioned. When you select the P-38 in the hangar, pick the option for only 200 rnds of MG ammo / gun. If you are taking a full load of ammo with you the p-38 will be a nasty tempered pig to fly in dogfights. The difference in weight comes to nearly 450 pounds, all of it forward of the pilot by a bunch.
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Like I mentioned in the other post you made about this, there is no appreciable difference in manueverability by taking the lower ammo load out.
ack-ack
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Hey guys,
I have fooled around with the 38 some. I've also done a ton of reading paying particular attention to who I consider to be top 38 flyers. Everyone says to ditch the Combat Trim when in the 38 and I understand why. However I am still not completely sure how you want the plane trimmed out.
Do you trim it out for level flight clean, or for level flight with flaps out. For example: I have the plane trimmed out for level flight at 190 mph with no flaps out. If I extend one notch at 190 mph, holding that speed, do I then adjust trim to fly level at 190 mph and one notch of flaps?
I have tried several times in the past to fly with manual trim. I guess I'm just not getting it. Reading several posts I have seen folks say trim the plane for level flight at 200 mph and forget about messing with trim. I have also seen folks say trim the plane for level flight no matter what you speed is.
Any suggestions would be most helpful in this regard.
Zaphod
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I think most would say have all trim positions neutral. I only disengage CT before entering a fight.
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I'm sure I'm NOT on your list of P38 pilots, but this is what I do. I auto climb out...hence no worries about trim. once I get to crusing alt, or if I level due to a "dot", I'll run auto level till I get my speed up. Once the speed is up I'll trim the plane for level flight at crusing speed. Level flight is usally aligning the red indicator with the horizontal part of the "L" in "ALT" on the trim gauge.
For most flying from here the trims will be ok. As I increase in speed, as in a dive, it will have a tendancy to try to go nose up, so as my speed increases I'll add some nose down trim to keep it trim out the way I'm use to. The trick is to remember to trim it back as you slow or you'll be fighting a nose low condition.
As I don't fly as often, and there by don't get the "practice" these "aces" get, I "cheat" :) I have the key for combat trim mapped to a button on my stick. So flicking the CT on then off will trim the plane for what ever speed and attitude you are in when ya flick it. I also have elevator "up" trim mapped to my stick. It's great for when you dive after someone and they pull out of the dive on the deck and expect you to go "SPLAT", and you don't, and you got the big ol' P38 Screamin up their tail as the slowly loose there "E" :)
I'm still learning, but thats what I got ;)
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Originally posted by Zaphod
Hey guys,
I have fooled around with the 38 some. I've also done a ton of reading paying particular attention to who I consider to be top 38 flyers. Everyone says to ditch the Combat Trim when in the 38 and I understand why. However I am still not completely sure how you want the plane trimmed out.
Do you trim it out for level flight clean, or for level flight with flaps out. For example: I have the plane trimmed out for level flight at 190 mph with no flaps out. If I extend one notch at 190 mph, holding that speed, do I then adjust trim to fly level at 190 mph and one notch of flaps?
I have tried several times in the past to fly with manual trim. I guess I'm just not getting it. Reading several posts I have seen folks say trim the plane for level flight at 200 mph and forget about messing with trim. I have also seen folks say trim the plane for level flight no matter what you speed is.
Any suggestions would be most helpful in this regard.
Zaphod
With the P38, you only need to fiddle with the elevator trim and it's best to keep it trimmed to neutral or as close as you can to it. Approximate neutral for the P-38 at 300mph IAS is on the _ part of the L where it says ELV on the elevator trim indicator.
If you would like some more P-38 tips or want to take a hop as a passenger, look for me online, in game call sign is AKAK.
ack-ack
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Thanks guys,
MDJOE, you have to be better than me in the 38 :). I also have the CT mapped to the stick. I have to since I wind up with the plane so far out that it gets very difficult to control and I'm just not instinctively knowing how to fix it manually.
Thanks for the tips, I was fooling around with it last night some. It will take me some time to get used to it for sure.
Zaphod
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Like I mentioned in the other post you made about this, there is no appreciable difference in manueverability by taking the lower ammo load out.
ack-ack
I agree with AKAK. Does that mean much? Dunno, but between the two of us we have over 20,000 kills in the P-38L
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Originally posted by Murdr
I agree with AKAK. Does that mean much? Dunno, but between the two of us we have over 20,000 kills in the P-38L
Over 20,000 kills between the both of us in the P-38? I wonder how much of that is the total kills for the P-38.
ack-ack
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I have been flying the 38 alot. I really would like to learn to fly this plane. I tend to stall to the left at 175. 616Fubar witness this. I cant figure out what it is I am doing wrong. I can turn a jug and 51 at this speed but 38 stalls. He says I maybe yanking the stick to much and that I need to be smoother in movement. Wouldnt that affect me flying other planes as well? I also get into this unrecoverable spin in the 38 how can I fix these problems? I will film some fights and post them later.
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jamusta, just holler if you see me online and I'll help you out as much as I can. You should also ask Murdr, he's just as good but not as quick, otherwise I wouldn't be able to steal his kills like I do :P
ack-ack