Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dago on November 12, 2004, 03:30:54 PM
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For many years Ben Stein (comedian, actor, does the Visine commercial) has written a biweekly column for the online website called "Monday Night at Morton's." Now, Ben is terminating the column to move on to other things in his life. Reading his final column to our military is worth a few minutes of your time because it praises the most unselfish among us; our military personnel, others who protect us daily and portrays a valuable lesson learned in his life.
Ben Stein's Last Column...
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How Can Someone Who Lives in Insane Luxury Be a Star in Today's World?
As I begin to write this, I "slug" it, as we writers say, which means I put a heading on top of the document to identify it. This heading is "eonlineFINAL," and it gives me a shiver to write it.
I have been doing this column for so long that I cannot even recall when I started. I loved writing this column so much for so long I came to believe it would never end. It worked well for a long time, but gradually, my changing as a person and the world's change have overtaken it.
On a small scale, Morton's, while better than ever, no longer attracts as many stars as it used to. It still brings in the rich people in droves and definitely some stars.
I saw Samuel L. Jackson there a few days ago, and we had a nice visit, and right before that, I saw and had a splendid talk with Warren Beatty in an elevator, in which we agreed that Splendor in the Grass was a super movie. But Morton's is not the star galaxy it once was, though it probably will be again.
Beyond that, a bigger change has happened. I no longer think Hollywood stars are terribly important. They are uniformly pleasant, friendly people, and they treat me better than I deserve to be treated. But a man or woman who makes a huge wage for memorizing lines and reciting them in front of a camera is no longer my idea of a shining star we should all look up to. How can a man or woman who makes an eight-figure wage and lives in insane luxury really be a star in today's world, if by a "star" we mean someone bright and powerful and attractive as a role model?
Real stars are not riding around in the backs of limousines or in Porsches or getting trained in yoga or Pilates and eating only raw fruit while they have Vietnamese girls do their nails. They can be interesting, nice people, but they are not heroes to me any longer.
A real star is the soldier of the 4th Infantry Division who poked his head into a hole on a farm near Tikrit, Iraq. He could have been met by a bomb or a hail of AK-47 bullets. Instead, he faced an abject Saddam Hussein and the gratitude of all of the decent people of the world. A real star is the U.S. soldier who was sent to disarm a bomb next to a road north of Baghdad. He approached it, and the bomb went off and killed him.
A real star, the kind who haunts my memory night and day, is the U.S. soldier in Baghdad who saw a little girl playing with a piece of unexploded ordnance on a street near where he was guarding a station. He pushed her aside and threw himself on it just as it exploded. He left a family desolate in California and a little girl alive in Baghdad.
The stars who deserve media attention are not the ones who have lavish weddings on TV but the ones who patrol the streets of Mosul even after two of their buddies were murdered and their bodies battered and stripped for the sin of trying to protect Iraqis from terrorists. We put couples with incomes of $100 million a year on the covers of our magazines. The noncoms and officers who barely scrape by on military pay but stand on guard in Afghanistan and Iraq and on ships and in submarines and near the Arctic Circle are anonymous as they live and die.
I am no longer comfortable being a part of the system that has such poor values, and I do not want to perpetuate those values by pretending that who is eating at Morton's is a big subject.
There are plenty of other stars in the American firmament....the policemen and women who go off on patrol in South Central and have no idea if they will return alive, the orderlies and paramedics who bring in people who have been in terrible accidents and prepare them for surgery, the teachers and nurses who throw their whole spirits into caring for autistic children, the kind men and women who work in hospices and in cancer wards. Think of each and every fireman who was running up the stairs at the World Trade Center as the towers began to collapse.
Now you have my idea of a real hero. We are not responsible for the operation of the universe, and what happens to us is not terribly important.
God is real, not a fiction, and when we turn over our lives to Him, He takes far better care of us than we could ever do for ourselves.
In a word, we make ourselves sane when we fire ourselves as the directors of the movie of our lives and turn the power over to Him.
I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters. This is my highest and best use as a human.
I can put it another way. Years ago, I realized I could never be as great an actor as Olivier or as good a comic as Steve Martin....or Martin Mull or Fred Willard--or as good an economist as Samuelson or Friedman or as good a writer as Fitzgerald. Or even remotely close to any of them.
But I could be a devoted father to my son, husband to my wife and, above all, a good son to the parents who had done so much for me.
This came to be my main task in life. I did it moderately well with my son, pretty well with my wife and well indeed with my parents (with my sister's help). I cared for and paid attention to them in their declining years. I stayed with my father as he got sick, went into extremis and then into a coma and then entered immortality with my sister and me reading him the Psalms.
This was the only point at which my life touched the lives of the soldiers in Iraq or the firefighters in New York.
I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters and that it is my duty, in return for the lavish life God has devolved upon me, to help others He has placed in my path.
This is my highest and best use as a human.
By Ben Stein
Faith is not believing that God can. It is knowing that God will.
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Nice article. Although he could have just as convincingly gotten his point across without getting all religious at the end.
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Good read
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>>I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters. This is my highest and best use as a human. <<
It a shame that such wisdom can get you labeled as a "LIBERAL" now.
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Although he could have just as convincingly gotten his point across without getting all religious at the end.
Morality and the Bible go hand in hand... so no, the point would not have been made as clearly without be able to reach deep inside.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
Nice article. Although he could have just as convincingly gotten his point across without getting all religious at the end.
Do you fault him for being religious?
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No. I took the article to be about the "real stars" in the world, about looking up to those putting their lives in harm's way instead of idolizing Hollywood. I felt it was a good tribute to those in the military, police, and fire/medical.
It just seems that at the end he ended up pushing an agenda.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters. This is my highest and best use as a human. <<
It a shame that such wisdom can get you labeled as a "LIBERAL" now.
It will only get you labeled a liberal if you coerce others to help, in a way that you dictate, and whether they like it or not.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
It a shame that such wisdom can get you labeled as a "LIBERAL" now.
:lol
Youre out of your mind!
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
It will only get you labeled a liberal if you coerce others to help, in a way that you dictate, and whether they like it or not.
That's a broad brush, even your hero Reagan, would not escape its path.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
No. I took the article to be about the "real stars" in the world, about looking up to those putting their lives in harm's way instead of idolizing Hollywood. I felt it was a good tribute to those in the military, police, and fire/medical.
It just seems that at the end he ended up pushing an agenda.
But doesnt every op ed push an agenda?
For example somebody who does not share your favorable view of the military might say that Ben Stein was pushing a "militarist agenda" in this article.
It seems that you are saying the same thing about him pushing a religious agenda.
Its a matter of preference and perspective.
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Reagan was as much our hero as he was yours, even though that's not something you will admit infront of your liberal democratic friends...
That's a broad brush, even your hero Reagan, would not escape its path.
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I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters. This is my highest and best use as a human.
tweety I don't see anything liberal about that at all. I'm not sure were you see it.
I thaught the article was very well written and inspiring.
The stuff in the end about giving yourself to God is great. Too many people in this world could benifit from some spiritual guidence.
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Originally posted by Torque
That's a broad brush, even your hero Reagan, would not escape its path.
Republicans are just relatively benign socialists. Reagan was no exception.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
Nice article. Although he could have just as convincingly gotten his point across without getting all religious at the end.
OMG RELIGION....NOT ONLY THAT BUT HE'S A JEW.....RUN FOR THE HILLS!
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>>tweety I don't see anything liberal about that at all. I'm not sure were you see it.
I thaught the article was very well written and inspiring. <<
I do too. I dunno, there's a certain segment in here that seems to enjoy the misery of others and thrive on villifying anything they disagree with. I guess its easy to focus on them and forget how few they are. That was an unfair thing to say in retrospect.
I did like that line and think that is the sort of thing people reflect on when their time has come. Everything else is just BS.
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It wasn't religion, it was spiritality. There wasn't an agenda, there was a belief.
An agenda would be, if as funked said, "you coerce others to help, in a way that you dictate, and whether they like it or not." (Unfortunately, considering the subject, he mistakenly applied that to liberals when I think you can make a much stronger case for the folks on the other side of the aisle.)
Still...
It was a good piece imho.
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"Morality and the Bible go hand in hand"
I strongly disagree. Morality has little or nothing to do with religion.
J_A_B
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JAB,
Interesting. Without faith, what is morality?
I see morals as living in faith. How do you see it?
Gooss
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Originally posted by Gooss
Interesting. Without faith, what is morality?Gooss
JAB didn't say anything about "faith". He said religion.
Religion, faith, values, the bible, morality.... how unneccessarily muddled.
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I'm with JAB on this one.
It was a good read but when he went to his religious beliefs I switched off.
All the things he aspires to - selflessness, service, suppoting others - these are all things that do not need religion as their basis. It is common humanity. As an aetheist I see religion as the key distorter of common human values.
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Originally posted by Sparks
All the things he aspires to - selflessness, service, suppoting others - these are all things that do not need religion as their basis. It is common humanity.
Whatever gives you the idea that religion was anywhere involved in what he said?
There was no mention of Catholic, Christian, Muslim, whatever...
So where was the religion?
Was it because he said "god"?
That is not religion. That is faith, unburdened by religion. "Selflessness, service..." is the true "morality", however blurred and coopted by evangelists for their purposes.
Morality should inspire - not be used as a weapon of guilt.
Don't confuse these things.
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I've said it before and I will say it again. There is a HUGE extreme difference between FAITH and RELEIGON!
Furthermore there is nothing wrong with Ben Stein being a practicing Jew. The man made it clear he sat by his fathers death bed and realized there are more important things in life.
Deep breath....
OK another way to look at it. Why not just say "good for him. Glad it works that way for him"
I will never say that a person who has no faith is imorral unless they are in fact an imorral person. I think faith teaches us morals and the only distortions on the subject come from extremest religions. It's when religion turns to activism when things go bad.
I admire Ben Stein ALOT more after reading this. I'm glad he found god. I'm glad he found a way to fill a whole in his heart that he probably had for a long time. anyhow that's my rant.
It's a shame this guy can touch on a few subjects some only see "god" and shut it off.
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Morality has to do with the "God center" of the brain/mind. It doesn't neccessarily come from religion (though it can) but philosophy, life events etc. as well. Its the objective, rational part of the psyche that attempts a broader perspective away from basic needs.
There are experiments that have pointed to its general location, just as they can point to the general location of language, sight, smell etc.
IMO, stating morality comes from the Bible is religious bigotry or niavity. Morality comes from the "inner eye" or "God center" of your reality, and has been discussed since before Socrates (3 faces of man etc.) Christian religions have adopted these 3 personalities of man as "The Father" (The God center) the Spirit (emotional, zealot) and the Son (the acting, basic needs, laborer).
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I saw this diagram once Tweety. I can't remember, but I think it was drawn around the time of Darwin. It seems to get at what yer saying.
It was a pyramid... and there were like, 6, maybe 7 levels to it. It had to do with human's needs.
On the bottom were purely survival things; food, shelter, water etc.
The top area started to shift towards spirituality. It was almost as if, once the basics, then the comforts, then the luxuries were taken care of, man could then afford to give some thought to spirituality.
I don't know how much weight I give it, because there are a whole ton of folks at the bottom who have no choice but to turn to god... but it seemed to make some sense... Wish I could remember why.
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I'm still searching for the dialogue ( I think its in the Repulic), but it talks about the 3 personalities of man (or 3 faces - I forget).
I do remember reading it though and thinking "Duh- thats where the trinity came from"
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Whether or not one believes in and expresses his opinion openly about his belief in God is not the point of the article. I am with Guns on this point.
Why can't people just read something and be glad for an individual for taking a stance on his/her point of view and be glad that they have something in life other than money, power and greed to go after.
Why can't we hold people up who do the little things in life such as teachers, military service men and women, fire fighters, police, etc...Probably because they are not the ones who are able to flaunt their wealth before our eyes. To me those are the ones who truly need guidance in life and its not necessarily spiritual guidance that they are in need of.
In case you are wondering I do believe in God and have faith that at the end life will have been worth living; in all my sins and repentance. However I will never try to shove my ideas down your throat about religion. To me that is wrong and not what telling the world about my faith in God is about.
BTW nice article that Mr. Stein wrote.
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Agree 100% . How he came by his conclusions is trivial. The message had (is of) great wisdom.
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dang... forced me to look into what I was talking about.
Turns out it doesn't say anything wrt spirituality. I wonder why I perceived it like that when I first saw it. Anyways, here is is:
maslow's hierarchy
(http://vrd.ucv.cl/importaciones/Teaching-Learning/APEO_Faculty_Manual/maslow.gif)
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Nash -
From original articleGod is real, not a fiction, and when we turn over our lives to Him, He takes far better care of us than we could ever do for ourselves.
In a word, we make ourselves sane when we fire ourselves as the directors of the movie of our lives and turn the power over to Him.
No he doesn't state a specific relgion but to me, as an aetheist, I see someone who has faith in a God as he describes has a religion.
I think I get switched off because people seem to have to acsribe their improved morals to a belief in a God. I see it as a decent bahaviour to others as a facet of human nature - I don't need to be religious (by that I mean having a faith of any sort in a divine being) to have the same morals. It is as if they need an excuse for their behaviour before gaining faith - 'I was immoral before because I didn't have faith in God / allah / the great tree god' .
In my opinion there is an inference in any public declaration of faith like that that 'I have become a better person because of my faith therefore if you do not have faith then you cannot hold my moral values'. There rarely seems to be an acceptance in these public outings that he was probably a shallow selfish dick previously and he's sorry and has realised and changed his behaviour - the reason is always that he 'found' something.
Why not just say "good for him. Glad it works that way for him"
Because of what I said above - the inference. I would have much more respect for him if he just said "I realised I was shallow etc etc - I have grown and changed" leave out the justifictaion. If he has a developed a belief in a god all well and good but why proclaim it ?? Why do you need to justify this change unless it is to absolve your responsibility for your previous actions?
It just cranks me up ...........
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Actually the diagram reads as you stated. They just don't use the word "spirituality."
These different levels of reality are a common theme thoughout the history of man, and way before the Bible. Thats not to take a shot a the Bible. But it is accentuated in many religions and philosophies.
BTW has anyone here studied about the Dead Sea scrolls, and Jesus's travels to the east?
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Reschke
It was a good article I agree and it spoke of values we should all strive for ...... for the first two thirds. Then it became a public proclamation of faith and how it had changed him as a person and then a sermon.
I would agree with every value he has found in that article and I would say every person is capable of behaving in a way ascribed to in those values without the need for faith - so why raise it ?? Why even mention a God ?? Why not just say I became a better person ?? What is the necessity of a public statement of a belief in a god driving your behaviour ??
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Sparks - you made a damned good argument...
I'm trying at the moment to figure out how to split the hairs and come up with a reply to that...
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Because he's being honest and not contrived? If he feels he came to these conclusions through God, why not state it? If he didn't it wouldn't be honest would it? I don't think he said that's the ONLY way to come to such conclusions.
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Being honest would simply be about him realising he hasn't had the best values and he accepts his responsibilty for his past failings but he has changed.
If he feels he came to these conclusions through God, why not state it? If he didn't it wouldn't be honest would it?
OK if he came to his conclusions through a development of a faith then a simple statement would have been sufficient but it in being honest about his change of attitudes didn't REQUIRE it. Also the nature of the proclamation went beyond the requirements of personal honesty - it changed from "I" to "we" and "us" - it became inclusive. It even ended with a declaration of gods powers.
I also ask you this - if he had achieved this new morality through a belief that he had heard voices from an oak tree telling him to change his life do you think the artivle would be viewed in the same light??
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Sparks you make a good point. The same point can be made THAT:
If you study the teachings of christ from a scholarly stanpoint and not one of faith in a higher being you can come to learn the morals that his lessons do teach. Seriously, I can't recall JC saying a bad thing about anyone or anything.
To me he (christ) is the standard of morals not the source. One can be a religious scholar and have no morals whatsoever! People that hold "religous leaders" as the standard for "religion" arent making a fare comparison for religion is not the same as faith to me. It's kinda like taking the president of any country and saying the people of that country are exactly like him.
as far as the article goes.....I don't consider myself a hero for serving my country yet people all the time thank me. I don't consider my Mother a hero for recently retiring from teaching High School for 27 years Yet I know she is to some people and have actually talked to some of her former students that say she changed their lives. But she is a hero for being a mother
I do consider my dad a hero, he worked for a company as a manager for 30 years and was fired for company politics. He took a job managing a fast food place at the age of 46 to put food on tabele and put a roof over our heads.
Heroism to me is doing more with less to help somone when there is no reason to put forth the extra effort. The Marines in Faluja right now are my heros. The firemen down the corner that wont bat an eye at running into a burny building to savy one of my kids are my heros.
John Cusak (SP) may be one of my favorite actors but he's nothing special in real life.
It's great that somone from the "elite hollywood" crowd feels that way and feels compelled to write about it. Plus it's Ben Stein: "Buler, Buler, Buler, Buler?"
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Originally posted by VWE
Morality and the Bible go hand in hand... so no, the point would not have been made as clearly without be able to reach deep inside.
You do not need the bible to be moral.
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IMO, stating morality comes from the Bible is religious bigotry or niavity.
O.k. faith would have been a better choice of words than bible though my faith is derived from God. But what ever religion you practice, God is still the center of it. Morality and religion go hand in hand.
Let the flames continue... carry on. :aok
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How incongruous it is for some to extoll "diversity" while simultaneously recoiling from a heartfelt and non-threatening statement of an individual's spirituality.
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Actually I don't think so. Bin Laden has faith, but no morality. While in general a lot of people have gotten their morality from their faith, and many through their religion, there are those, like James Jones, that take people's faith and twist it to their own desires.
I am personally a religeous man, and I hope a man of faith and of morality. I learned my moral code (basically to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ) from my parents. Others can learn of a similar morality (treat others as you would treat yourself) without a religion or even a 'faith' of any kind.
I do think it is possible. I also believe that there is nothing wrong with saying God is responsible for his beliefs. Even if you don't believe in God you can still acknowlege that, for this person at least, this 'God figure' was an influence in his life. If it makes him an upstanding member of society and a good father, husband and human being then it really isn't a bad thing.
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You don't need religion to be moral. You don't even need religion to be spiritual. There is a much higher incidence of antisocial behavior in the religious part of the population when compared to the irreligious.
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JAB,
Interesting. Without faith, what is morality?
I see morals as living in faith. How do you see it? "
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I view morality as attempting to do the right thing, because it's the right thing. You do not have to believe in any particular religion to know right from wrong.
Saying that morality = faith is automatically dismissing all agnostics and atheists as immoral. To me, that seems rather silly. Likewise...having a religion doesn't automatically make you a moral person...we all know plenty of scumbags who go to church weekly. It's HOW you live, not what religion you subscribe to--if any--that matters.
J_A_B
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Nicely put JAB :aok
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Originally posted by Shuckins
How incongruous it is for some to extoll "diversity" while simultaneously recoiling from a heartfelt and non-threatening statement of an individual's spirituality.
It's callled tollerance! :)
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Is Morality attempting to do the right thing? Or is Morality the right thing we attempt to do?
I see morals or morality as the right thing to do as defined by God and administered by His Church. With regards to Christians (I'm Catholic), immorality is, by definition, sin.
Please do not judge religion by religious people who are "scumbags". (If their religion is correct, they'll get what they deserve eventually.) Should atheists be judged the same way in fairness? By the secular scumbags? Let's not go there for the sake of this discussion.
In a non-religious sense, what is the standard, the "right thing"? Who defines it? For the non-religious person, what is morality?
Gooss
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I posted the Ben Stein column because I thought he was dead on about celebrities being overrated in importance (especially in their own minds), and the concept that our society should view our military and emergence services personell as the true heros and people who matter.
I never thought this would turn into a debate or even a discussion about religion. Kind of sad to me that is has gone that way. I personally practice more of a tolerance of differant religious views I guess. Believe in God or not, believe in Jesus or not, I don't care. I will believe, live and worship as I see fit, and expect others to do the same.
Oh well,
dago
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Originally posted by Dago
I never thought this would turn into a debate or even a discussion about religion.
lol, tune in tomorrow, it will probably be into abortion by then
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I think it been a pretty civilised discussion so far, was hoping to pull in more european views. :)
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Originally posted by Shuckins
How incongruous it is for some to extoll "diversity" while simultaneously recoiling from a heartfelt and non-threatening statement of an individual's spirituality.
Well said.
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...........from a heartfelt and non-threatening statement of an individual's spirituality.
That's your interpretation of non-threatening.
Believe in God or not, believe in Jesus or not, I don't care. I will believe, live and worship as I see fit, and expect others to do the same.
On one hand you say you don't care and then immediately after you say you EXPECT others to do the same ??? that sounds like a contradiction to me.
I see morals or morality as the right thing to do as defined by God and administered by His Church. With regards to Christians (I'm Catholic), immorality is, by definition, sin.
..As defined by god ?? So without a divine being (of any sort) you wouldn't know right from wrong ??
In a non-religious sense, what is the standard, the "right thing"? Who defines it? For the non-religious person, what is morality?
The standard is what you know in yourself as JAB said - you don't have to have divine guidance to know right from wrong. IMHO the dependance on religious guidance for moral decisions is a cop-out of your personal responsibility for your actions. If the Bible / Koran / Elves Handbook says it's ok then it's ok. This is what opens the door to extremism because responsibility then becomes a matter of interpretation, not personal thought and conscience.
To go back to the article - every value he says he has discovered is actually normal social conscience - we are just not very good at it. I ask you if I as an aetheist had written the same article with the same sentiments but without reference to a God of any sort, but finished with " I realised the values in my life were wrong and I've grown and changed" would you have looked on it in the same way ??
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Originally posted by Sparks On one hand you say you don't care and then immediately after you say you EXPECT others to do the same ??? that sounds like a contradiction to me.
I will believe, live and worship as I see fit, and expect others to do the same.
To supplement your comprehension, I will explain. It's really simple, and not a demand, I will do as I want regarding religion, and I would expect others to do as they want regarding religion. Worship, believe, or don't, doesn't matter to me.
I hope that helps with your confusion.
dago
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I ask you if I as an aetheist had written the same article with the same sentiments but without reference to a God of any sort, but finished with " I realised the values in my life were wrong and I've grown and changed" would you have looked on it in the same way ??
Here's a challenge, find anything written by an aetheist that even comes close to Ben Steins comments.
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Dago - apologies - I have re-read and I took the wrong interpretation - I see how you meant it now. (the sarcasm was not actually required though).
Here's a challenge, find anything written by an aetheist that even comes close to Ben Steins comments.
Ahhhh - here's the true colours - the only people capable of moral standing are the religious faithful ?? So aetheists are incapable of producing work of the moral fibre of a believer?? Or is that only a christian believer ?? What about a bhudist .... or a Hindu ...... or a aborigine ??? All have beliefs and morals - but not yours ......
So perhaps these "non-threatening statements of belief" have something a little more sinister behind them - like the setting of oneself above others.
How far of a step is it from the pious proclamation of the moral superiority of your beliefs to picking up an AK47 and shooting someone who disagrees with those beliefs ???
And this is what I find common in religions - the tolerance and teaching of equality very rarely exists in practice.
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Not yet an article but an interesting opinion..
Article on Atheist Morality (http://speakout.com/activism/opinions/4991-1.html)
Never heard of this guy but a Google search will bring up most things. Some of the statements in here are equally good if not better tha Stein
Article on Tai Solarin (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/Tai_Solarin.html)
I sure there's lots out there.
Just found something that says Old Abe was an atheist !!!
Atheist quotes - Einstien etc (http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm)
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Originally posted by Sparks
(the sarcasm w
Yeah, I can be kind of a jerk about that, my apologies back.
dago