Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ramzey on November 15, 2004, 08:08:49 PM
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I saw only 2 last sec of story ot KRO4
marines in the building checking who of iraqui is alive, then shot and camera blank
CNN is screamimg like this
whats happend?
(http://pliki.krionix.net/Snap050c.jpg)
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The Iraqi was wounded badly in a previous fight. Due to the ongoing battle he was left all by himself for over a day and was in terrible pain. It was a mercy killing, which is apparently illegal in US military law.
CNN is pushing this story very eagerly, though I cant say whether its some sort of bias or just CNN's retarded repetive reporting of just about any story every 15 minutes to fill their 24 hour schedule...
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A Marine is about to be made into an example. This guy and his chain of command have just entered a ****storm of epic proportions.
Mercy killing... my ass. Grunts are not trained to make medical assessments like that. Grunts are trained to capture POWs and get them to medical personnel. Medical personnel can then determine if the prisoner can be saved or not. If mercy killing is appropriate, the medical people can do it in a way that is humane and doesn't end up on CNN.
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Grun i can understand shot to relive pain if it will be done by insurgences, but by MARINE?
Also i read no newsgroup about same done earlier by other platoon. From 5 who surrender, 2 survive and one was recued by BBC reporter. 2 other was shot in a head by shotgun.
???????
wtf is going on? really secound vietnam?
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CBS found out about this and the producers 'wet their pants' getting it on the air.
The Marine who did the shooting had seen his friends killed and wounded. Was wounded himself the day before. And now faces Courts Marshall for killing someone that could have been one of the SOB's that were beheading U.S citizens the week before.
That's enough, got to stop 'venting'.....
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Otto it doesn't matter. American troops are not allowed to do this kind of stuff. And they damned sure better not do it front of a camera crew. I hope the military justice system takes a giant **** on him, if all this is true.
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Rush to judgement without the facts tards. You do Dan Rather proud.
For myself, I will wait until it is investigated and the details and facts are made public. Anyone who forms his opinion on this based solely on what CBS or CNN says is a squealing moron of epic proportions.
So, ignore the tactic the insurgents have been using, faking dead and then opening fire. Also ignore the recent tactic of booby trapping the wounded and the dieing, so as our troops attempt to give aid, they are blown up. Ignore that armchair warriors, so you can sit in judgement without any facts.
If that Marine was at fault, it will be discovered, and he will suffer the consequences of his actions.
Personally, I will mourn no insurgents death, regardless of how he was killed. I certainly have no illusion about how that would have gone down if that had been an American wounded surrounded by insurgents with the rifles in hand. Wasn't that long ago 4 Marines were found executed, remember that? Think they were treated in accordance with the "rules of war"? War is hell, and those that think Americans will always act in the purest manner are deluded.
This stuff happens in every war, and in large scale. Just most have enough sense not to do it on camera. It is very possible the Marine was in fear of his life and suspected that the insurgent was about to attempt to kill them.
dago
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this marine is jarhead
after vietnam they need to train them to not do such a thing in a front of camera.
Those one who play in this prison was MP from army or Marine?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Otto it doesn't matter. American troops are not allowed to do this kind of stuff. And they damned sure better not do it front of a camera crew. I hope the military justice system takes a giant **** on him, if all this is true.
Funked, maybe you should just 'be there' before you start throwing ****.
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Originally posted by Otto
Funked, maybe you should just 'be there' before you start throwing ****.
what for? law is law same for everybody, right?
arent we lawfull people?
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Originally posted by Otto
Funked, maybe you should just 'be there' before you start throwing ****.
So it's excusable because it was a crime of passion? That's just 2nd or 3rd degree murder instead of 1st degree.
I reiterate, if the story actually happened as reported, I hope they throw the book at him.
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People are shocked to find out that watermelon like this has ALWAYS happened in war? It's WAR, hello.
Guys with little sleep, faced with high stress and in a "kill or be killed" environment are sometimes going to do crap like this. Its war.
I'm not shocked at all.
The US will deal with it and punish the guy if it's as it looks on the footage. The US actually deals with these crimes unlike the people we are fighting.
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pretty sure I saw him reaching for a weapon...
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I reiterate, if the story actually happened as reported, I hope they throw the book at him.
So noted...
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Originally posted by NUKE
People are shocked to find out that watermelon like this has ALWAYS happened in war? It's WAR, hello.
Guys with little sleep, faced with high stress and in a "kill or be killed" environment are sometimes going to do crap like this. Its war.
I'm not shocked at all.
The US will deal with it and punish the guy if it's as it looks on the footage. The US actually deals with these crimes unlike the people we are fighting.
That Don't make it right. He shot a visibly unarmed wounded man. That's the bottom line. Right before the iraqi is shot, a marine was recorded by the camera saying "He's ****ing faking he's dead". Pretty damning documentation.
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I never said it was right. I said it happens in all wars. War is not right.
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stupid jarhead, he should have shot the news crew.
breaking news:::::
in a tragic frendly fire incident today, a inbeded CNN news crew was wiped out.
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More wasted lives for what? WMDs?
I don't think it's all that marine's fault; you just chose wrong guy to run the show; sad thing is it's not his arse on the frying pan.
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I'd rather see a US marine shoot an injured combatant than see an innocent person get his/her head sawed off by some terrorists.
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A BIG WHAT DAGO SAID!!!!!!
You guys know ZERO facts about this and allready people are rushing to make this into a HUGE deal.
and Staga our president does not run the battlefield he leaves that up to the Generals.
You guys are behind the pace here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135746
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Originally posted by NUKE
I'd rather see a US marine shoot an injured combatant than see an innocent person get his/her head sawed off by some terrorists.
you saying its excusable beucose he is US Marine?
or you say iraqui life is less valuable then U.S life?
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Originally posted by ramzey
you saying its excusable beucose he is US Marine?
or you say iraqui life is less valuable then U.S life?
I beleive he said PERSON not Iraqi or US but INNOCENT PERSON meaning somone who was murdered without cause.
That sounded very clear to me that he would rather see a US Marine kill an INSURGANT (meaning somone currently blowing up civilans and sawing the heads off of peple) than see another grusome kidnapping gone bad.
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A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."
The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/15/marine.probe/index.html
if the above quote is true it sounds justified to me.
EDIT:
Of course there's no outrage at
* the use of mosques as weapons caches and fighting positions
*The use of false surrender ruses
*the booby trapping of dead bodies
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Nope, he's saying there's nothing wrong if US Marines are murdering people.
Gunslinger who's the highest authority of US armed forces?
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Originally posted by ramzey
you saying its excusable beucose he is US Marine?
or you say iraqui life is less valuable then U.S life?
he is saying a Marine life is more vauable than a terrorst that cuts off the head of innocent civilians and blows up women and children with car bombs.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I beleive he said PERSON not Iraqi or US but INNOCENT PERSON meaning somone who was murdered without cause.
That sounded very clear to me that he would rather see a US Marine kill an INSURGANT (meaning somone currently blowing up civilans and sawing the heads off of peple) than see another grusome kidnapping gone bad.
oh, and we only accidently drop bomb on civilians, so sad
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I'm not saying it is excusable.
What I am saying is that I would rather see an enemy combatant be shot than see an innocent person getting their head sawed off by a terrorist.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I'd rather see a US marine shoot an injured combatant than see an innocent person get his/her head sawed off by some terrorists.
From the information presented so far, it appears that he shot a noncombatant. What I was taught is that the only acceptable time to shoot unarmed personel is during the assault.
I have a story about a cherry posing a question about this subject to a captain once a long time ago. But this isn't the place for it.
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The investigation will determine whether the Marine violated any rules or should be charged with any crime.
-SW
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Originally posted by Staga
Nope, he's saying there's nothing wrong if US Marines are murdering people.
Gunslinger who's the highest authority of US armed forces?
I'd rather see a US marine shoot an injured combatant than see an innocent person get his/her head sawed off by some terrorists.
REEEAADDDINGGG COOOMPRREEEHEEENSION!
he's saying that a terrorists life is less valuable PERIOD. If this guy had a gun or a grenade with the pin pulled the Marine and the camera crew would be dead. Sorry but If you're not going to play by the rules than you suffer as well.
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Well one thing is sure; US just got plenty of new enemies.
Oh well; You reap what you sew.
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Originally posted by Staga
Nope, he's saying there's nothing wrong if US Marines are murdering people.
Gunslinger who's the highest authority of US armed forces?
Staga,
You are taking your personal hatred of our President way too far. The CIC is never personally responsible for all acts committed, good OR by, by the Armed Forces. If you think so you have some issues to deal with and will need professional help.
If you are saying the President has given an order to kill all enemy wounded you are again way out there.
For the rest of you guys, you need to stop making judgements with incomplete information. You were not there, not in the situation and in no position to decide guilt, if there is any culpability at all.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
The investigation will determine whether the Marine violated any rules or should be charged with any crime.
-SW
Yup, justice will be served that is a given. If not he will be made an example of and our effort there suffers.
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Originally posted by Staga
Well one thing is sure; US just got plenty of new enemies.
Oh well; You reap what you sew.
Yea liberating a city from terrorist so they stop sending car bombs to kill policemen and school children.....those ANIMALS
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Originally posted by Staga
Well one thing is sure; US just got plenty of new enemies.
Oh well; You reap what you sew.
new enemies?
I'd have to say we are killing our existing enemies as they pop out of the woodwork.
The beauty is that we are killing them on their home turf.
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Animals yes; Just like those who are killing injured enemies. Both are no better than nazies.
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Staga you were talking about the guy running the show. The show is faluja and the comander is the CO of the Marines that are taking it out.
Do you think it's excusable for insurgents and terrorists to commit war crimes?
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Originally posted by Staga
Animals yes; Just like those who are killing injured enemies. Both are no better than nazies.
and now the city is under 100% Iraqi and US control. Too bad a few terrorists had to die.......
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Originally posted by Staga
Animals yes; Just like those who are killing injured enemies. Both are no better than nazies.
Aha and here it is. Your loss of control....compare them to Nazis.
I suppose you think its OK for a guy to shoot at somone while holding a kid as a human sheild but shooting someone that may still be a threat to you isnt.
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Nope; do you think it's OK for Marines to commit warcrimes?
Dejavu... http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/iraqiwar.wmv
"Hell that was awesome; Let's do it again"
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I'm not losing any sleep over the death of an enemy combatant.
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Originally posted by Staga
Nope; do you think it's OK for Marines to commit warcrimes?
Dejavu... http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/iraqiwar.wmv
"Hell that was awesome; Let's do it again"
ITS A WAR....WAR CRIMES HAPPEN ON BOTH SIDES....MOSTLY ON THE TERRORIST/INSURGANT TEAM.
THAT DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT. At least we have a justice system to deal with it. They kill indescriminantly...woman, children doesnt matter to them.
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OK I'm an idiot. I'm arguing with a moron that can't make a single point without calling somone a Nazi.
SILLY ME! :cool:
the irony is that he's finnish:rofl
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Looks like that "Enemy Combatant" was actually a prisoner of a war.
Well I feel sorry for the kid; he just royally screwed his life.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
ITS A WAR....WAR CRIMES HAPPEN ON BOTH SIDES....MOSTLY ON THE TERRORIST/INSURGANT TEAM.
THAT DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT. At least we have a justice system to deal with it. They kill indescriminantly...woman, children doesnt matter to them.
what is diference for you between terorist, bandit and freedom fighter?
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Originally posted by ramzey
what is diference for you between terorist, bandit and freedom fighter?
What do you see as the difference? Maybe that's a better question.
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You guys need to get some of that press out of there. This is rediculous. The CNN article mentions 'rules of war'. As far as I'm concerned, after fighting house to house for a day straight, most 'rules' are out the door. Dont assume to know what the situation was or what this marine had just been through.
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Mercy killing? Murder?
Where the hell you guys getting your news from, Al-Jazeera?
Way I hear it is there have been a bunch of incidents where Enemy combatants have been playing dead untill one of our guys get close, then come up shooting at our guys.
as well as booby trapped corpses.
What was he supposed to do? wait till the guy pulled a gun or a grenade to shoot him?
BFS
Had I been that soldier I would have done the exact same thing.
Like I said in the other thread.
If that guy didnt want to die he should have gotten out of town when he could.
Wasnt like it was a big secret we were goin in.
All this outrage over this. what people dont get is this type of thinig is the only thing these people understand.
We keep trying to beleive they think in the same way we do when what we are dealing with is an entire different mindset then we have in the west.
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Originally posted by newguy
You guys need to get some of that press out of there. This is rediculous. The CNN article mentions 'rules of war'. As far as I'm concerned, after fighting house to house for a day straight, most 'rules' are out the door. Dont assume to know what the situation was or what this marine had just been through.
Saw a show covering that exact topic.
Rules of war are also you dont take civilians hostage.
you dont dress in civilian clothes.
You dont intentionally harm civilians. and more
you dont Dress in the enemies uniforms such as police uniforms (I beleive the rule is you can be shot on sight for that offence alone)
these guys break more rules of war as a norm then we ever have
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It's also not legal for a combatant to fake like they are dead IIRC.
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Originally posted by Staga
Nope; do you think it's OK for Marines to commit warcrimes?
Dejavu... http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/iraqiwar.wmv
"Hell that was awesome; Let's do it again"
Itentional killing of civilians (Anyone got a link to that beheading video? Or how about some of those IEDs blowing up outside of hotels?)-- WAR CRIME
Kidnapping and Torturing of Civilians-- WAR CRIME
Torturing of Prisoners-- WAR CRIME
Killing of prisoners-- WAR CRIME
Dressing in enemy uniforms (such as police) WAR CRIME
Using Civilians for sheilds- WAR CRIME
Faking Death then shooting-- WAR CRIME
Faking Surrender-- WAR CRIME
Boobytrapping dead bodies --WAR CRIME
shall we go on?
Insurgents are guilty of all these things and much much more so lets not make like these guys are playing by the rules and we arent.
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And the ***** hit the fan....
Personally If I were put through all the stuff those soldiers have been , I would prolly do the same.
Its easier to defend your own country on your own soil than go abroad waging war... Theres no-one claiming justice for enemies when your own house is on fire.
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I would hate like hell to have a camera over my shoulder watching me at work. All the trips to the water cooler...stealing my co-workers' sandwiches out of the break room referigerator...surfing porn sites on the computer...
We need to get cameras out of the workplace, especially if your workplace is a war zone.
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it was a stray bullet. Off with their heads.
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Ya know what, its war - **** happens. The guy was wounded and probally had it comming anyway - otherwise why would he be wounded to begin with?
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You guys see an american shoot an unarmed man in the head at point blank range and jump to conclusions!
The real victim here is the marine.
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Originally posted by Pongo
You guys see an american shoot an unarmed man in the head at point blank range and jump to conclusions!
The real victim here is the marine.
Amen Pongo.
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Originally posted by Airhead
I would hate like hell to have a camera over my shoulder watching me at work. All the trips to the water cooler...stealing my co-workers' sandwiches out of the break room referigerator...surfing porn sites on the computer...
We need to get cameras out of the workplace, especially if your workplace is a war zone.
thats give me thought
how many incydents like that happend and was not recorded
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Originally posted by newguy
You guys need to get some of that press out of there. This is rediculous. The CNN article mentions 'rules of war'. As far as I'm concerned, after fighting house to house for a day straight, most 'rules' are out the door. Dont assume to know what the situation was or what this marine had just been through.
arent this rules make us more civilised and democratic country on the world? If we broke them , put a side, suspend, how much they are worth? nothing. Its hit to core of everything what we belive, right??
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The guy was a terrosit... Fugg him.
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I dunno, but last I checked insurgents weren't covered under the Geneva Convention - so gloves off. All is fair IMO.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
I dunno, but last I checked insurgents weren't covered under the Geneva Convention - so gloves off. All is fair IMO.
I guess that makes the executed partisans, aka insurgents, something we can write off of the nazi's misdeeds.
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I didn't say it was fair - but thats war. If you have a better fourm to solve disputes decisively, i'm all eyes. And the key phrase is "decisively".
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Originally posted by Wolfala
All is fair IMO.
Originally posted by Wolfala
I didn't say it was fair - but thats war.
Quick doublethinking, Batman! ;)
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Hard to judge from our comfortable chairs...
right or wrong, the guy was in the middle of battle, nothing is black or white in a war zone.
I would not jump to conclusions here.
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The marnine is a soldier serving in a war zone.
He is NOT a war crimminal IMHO.
The booby trapping of dead and wounded insurgents has led to this happening.
The real crimes of this war have been posted on the internet and depicting heads being sawed off while yelling "God is Great".
Sorry...I simply cannot call this a war-crime.
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I heard that the Marine had been shot in the face the day before and had just returned to duty 1 day after.
:eek:
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What does it mean to be a POW? After the eariler fighting when they were wouned and supposedly "captured" these guys were left unatenned in that mosque in an active war zone for a whole day during which the US army contined to take fire from that mosque. Do POW's engage in combat after they are captured?
Also what does unarmed mean? Unarmed means not having a weapon. It does not mean not having a gun or rifle. Correct? Considering the weapons and tactics of these indsurgents where they clerarly used wounded and dead men as booby trap weapons, can we really say he was 100% for sure unarmed.
I've seen clips of the video where the man is moving up to where he gets shot, how could those marines know he wasnt trying to roll over and expose a grenade or an armed mine to attack the marines?
I dont think its at all clear..
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Originally posted by GScholz
There can be no doubt that that marine committed a war crime. He shot and killed a wounded, unarmed POW (I don't think anyone can get more "non-combatant" than that). However there are some important mitigating circumstances: the illegal tactics employed by his enemy, the casualty his unit took the day before in a similar situation, and the fact that he didn't know the Iraqis were POWs. The man deserves punishment, but what "level" of punishment I cannot say. I do however have a feeling the tribunal will hang him out to dry, so to speak, since it is now an international news event and an embarrassment to the US forces.
At which point did he become a POW? Was he Tagged or marked as such? Was he cuffed?
Fact that he was wounded and laying there IMO doesnt make him a POW particularly in light of the mitigating circumstances.
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Is it a crime to shoot a wounded soldier who is trying to detonate an explosive as you approach him?
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Originally posted by GScholz
It really doesn't matter under what circumstances the shooting took place. An unarmed and wounded prisoner of war was executed. It is a crime whether it was accidental or not.
Problem with that idea is at the time they didnt know if he was armed or not.
And in light of recent events it was far from unreasonable to assume he was armed.
If he was previously determined to be a POW he should have been cuffed, wounded or not.
Hell police in this country even cuff wounded prisoners
Untill that point I dont see how he can be labled as a POW but still a potentialy leathal enemy combatant.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What does it mean to be a POW? After the eariler fighting when they were wouned and supposedly "captured" these guys were left unatenned in that mosque in an active war zone for a whole day during which the US army contined to take fire from that mosque. Do POW's engage in combat after they are captured?
Also what does unarmed mean? Unarmed means not having a weapon. It does not mean not having a gun or rifle. Correct? Considering the weapons and tactics of these indsurgents where they clerarly used wounded and dead men as booby trap weapons, can we really say he was 100% for sure unarmed.
I've seen clips of the video where the man is moving up to where he gets shot, how could those marines know he wasnt trying to roll over and expose a grenade or an armed mine to attack the marines?
I dont think its at all clear..
Good point.
These guys had been "captured the day before yet the marines ended up having to shoot up the place again the day after (before they re entered the place)
Therefore these guys were no longer POWs but once again enemy combatants
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what Dago and Curval have already stated:
"Sites reported a Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent."
Time to get the tv cameras out of the war zone, should never have been allowed in there in the first place
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GS they were POWs the day before, yes.
However the mosque was retaken by the insurgents and they fought against US forces again. Therefore they were no longer POW. I cant imagine that first days POW status would automatically still apply to them after they rejoined the battle alongside other insurgents from that mosque.
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well.. i know the polish and viking commie league is all wet and worked up about this but it might not be anything. The enemy are all war criminals.. they are surrendering and faking death and then firing on soldiers... if a wounded war criminal (soldier dressed in civilian clothes) is laying wounded and makes any move at all.... I'm gonna put a dozen more rounds in him
This is not a police stop this is war where you make a split second decision that may save a lot of fellow soldiers lives. You may not make the best decision but you can't be held accountable if you say that you thought he was making a move.
a bunch of war criminals are faking being wo0unded or killed in order to booby trap soldiers.. if they move they get shot again. good policy.
lazs
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So now its the marines warcrime that the insurgents took back the mosque and started fighting again???
Marines were fired on from that mosque on saturday, the day of the final incident...
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Originally posted by GScholz
Ah Eagler, so you mean it is not bad that war crimes are committed, only that they get captured on camera?
I do not see how it was a war crime.
they dont even know if this guy in question was one of the ones that were supposedly "Captured" the day before.
For all anyone knows this was quite possibly someone who hadnt surrendered, and may not have even been there the day before.
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The Marine who committed the act needs to be brought up on charges. That's all I will say in the matter.
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Iraq really is Vietnam in a way, the media coverage.
Vietnam was the first "media war". This coverage resulted in a lot of the media attention being used against the soldiers on the home front.
In some ways, it's happening again...
Would prefer the media stayed in the rear, then maybe had a reporter come in and report on the situation well after organized hostilities have ceased.
-SW
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Originally posted by lazs2
well.. i know the polish and viking commie league is all wet and worked up about this but it might not be anything. The enemy are all war criminals.. they are surrendering and faking death and then firing on soldiers... if a wounded war criminal (soldier dressed in civilian clothes) is laying wounded and makes any move at all.... I'm gonna put a dozen more rounds in him
This is not a police stop this is war where you make a split second decision that may save a lot of fellow soldiers lives. You may not make the best decision but you can't be held accountable if you say that you thought he was making a move.
a bunch of war criminals are faking being wo0unded or killed in order to booby trap soldiers.. if they move they get shot again. good policy.
lazs
Tell ya what, if the only way to make sure a war criminal (dressing in civilian clothes and pretending to be dead) Doesnt commit another war crime (pretending to be dead then shooting) is to become a "War criminal" myself.
Guess I'd have to become a war criminal too.
Better to be a live "war criminal" then a dead sucker because I decided to play Mr nice nice ina war zone Where enemy combatants are dressing as civilains, pretending to be dead then shooting at,wounding and killing my buddies or bobbytrapping dead guys.
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I saw it on the CNN article, if i read it correctly they were still fighting at the mosque on saturday when the final shooting took place.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/15/marine.probe/index.html
But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside. Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead, according to the pool report.
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If the marine suspected that the wounded guy was making an agressive move he had a duty to shoot the guy a buncha more times.
lazs
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Iraq really is Vietnam in a way, the media coverage.
Vietnam was the first "media war". This coverage resulted in a lot of the media attention being used against the soldiers on the home front.
In some ways, it's happening again...
Would prefer the media stayed in the rear, then maybe had a reporter come in and report on the situation well after organized hostilities have ceased.
-SW
So Panama was Vietnam? Was Grenada Vietnam? Was GW1 Vietnam? They all had reporters showing fighting.
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Vietnam used it extensively, just like this Iraq war.
Now go away.
-SW
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Originally posted by GScholz
Can you direct me to a news outlet that claims the Marines took fire from the building on that day? I can't find any. All I can find is that the Marines shot up the building (again) when they entered it (btw. that's just standard urban fighting procedure with suppressing fire), and that no weapons were found on any of the POWs/bodies.
And when you enter such building after firing upon it you are to assume all living inhabitants are armed and still dangerous.
Guess by your way of thinking they were supposed to politely ask if these guys had any weapons or not first before firing upon them.
Or we're supposed to go back to the tactic of not firing unless fired upon as we have so many times before that ended up getting untold amounts of our guys killed.
I dont think so
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Originally posted by GScholz
Can you direct me to a news outlet that claims the Marines took fire from the building on that day? I can't find any. All I can find is that the Marines shot up the building (again) when they entered it (btw. that's just standard urban fighting procedure with suppressing fire), and that no weapons were found on any of the POWs/bodies.
From Grun's link:
But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside.
Reoccupied. This poses a threat.
Sounds more and more like these guys were fighting to the end.
Either way, a full investigation still needs to be executed (and is underway)
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Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting
So clearly there was fighting on saturday.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
So Panama was Vietnam? Was Grenada Vietnam? Was GW1 Vietnam? They all had reporters showing fighting.
Neither Panama, grenada, or GW1 was covered to he same extent of Vietnam or this current conflict.
It isnt even a close comparison
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Neither Panama, grenada, or GW1 was covered to he same extent of Vietnam or this current conflict.
It isnt even a close comparison
I watched all 3 on the networks each night as events unfolded...:confused: Panama and Grenada did not have "imbedded reporters" though. The reporters were within the population rather than the fighting force of the U.S.
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If I were that marine unit now yanno what I would do?
Insist the embedded reporter check to see if these guys are really dead or not from now on.
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none of us were there... if it is a common tactic of the enemy war criminals to fake death or surrendering and then open fire on legitimate troops then it is the duty of the U.S. soldiers to open fire on any wounded or "dead" or "surrendering" war criminal that is making a suspicious move.
lazs
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Unlike the prisoner abuse at the prison these soldiers were taking fire from these guys the day before and I'm sorry but if someone was taking shots at me or fellow soldiers then the hell with what happens to them. And since I wasn't there I won't make any judgements on if it was right or wrong, but they need to stop doing this crap in front of the camera. There is another clip out there that has the soldier talking to the reporter after he did something similar. Although in the clip where he talks to the reporter it seemed they may of still been taking fire from somewhere.
68Parker
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I have to ask this GS, no malice intended. If its a war crime to abandon POW who are supposed to be under your care then is what dutchbat did to those under its care a warcrime too?
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No. Those soldiers did not take fire from that building the day before. Another Marine unit did, stormed and captured the place, and took five wounded enemy prisoner. The prisoners were left to be picked up later by a medical unit, but before that happened another Marine unit mistakenly stormed the building believing it was reoccupied, and shot four of the five prisoners.
Like I said, or my fellow soldiers. I didn't agree with the prison abuse because some of the people in the prison was rounded up in mass searches and may of had nothing to do with any attacks, but clearly these guys were trying to kill our soldiers and I don't care if was the day before or not. Hands are to be clearly in sight and after looking at the pictures and video clips I cannot say that I clearly see his hands or what they were doing.
68Parker
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Originally posted by ramzey
what is diference for you between terorist, bandit and freedom fighter?
I know you didn;t ask me this but I'll answer anyhow.
The differnece my friend is all in whom they (terrorist/bandit/freedom-fighter) target in their attacks. You attack the military you can get the last category from me. You attack undefended pipelines/power stations/bridges you are a bandit. You use car bombs, sever the heads from bound captives, and INDESCRIMINATELY target civilians then you are pure terrorist.
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no... heard and international war crimes lady talking and it would not be a war crime to shoot a wounded war criminal (terrorist in civilian dress) if you suspected that he would continue agression.
Mostly simply saying so would be enough... "I thought he was reaching for a weapon" mostly... it would never even come to light. It is especialy aprapro for the U.S. soldier to shoot if the tactic of faking death is common in the region of fighting.
lazs
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Whats the practical difference between abandoing POW and letting them go free.
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sholts... they are not even soldiers... they are terrorists in civilian clothing shooting at real soldiers.
lazs
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GS can you prove that Geneva applies to these fighters?
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Gsholtz, where was your rage when Marines were shot at when honoring the international symbol for surrender, a white flag...last week? I must have missed your post.
You see, both (this incident, and that one) were war crimes, but I must have missed your outrage last week.
Now, does this really surprise anyone that Marines might shoot first and ask question later considering the combatants we're facing?
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BTW, isn't this what John Kerry did in Vietnam...? Wasn't his 'Claim to Fame' jumping out of his boat and shooting a wounded VC? What 'Goes around, comes around'...
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shlotz... not allways... wearing the uniform of a medical worker or policeman for instance... it is a war crime to shoot at soldiers while wearing civilian clothes. even an armband is enough to be considered a "uniform" tho.
lazs
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It seems these Iraqi fighters do not qualify for POW status based on their actionb like repeatedly faking surrenders and using wounded as bait to then ill US soldiers with hidden explosives.
http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/Iraq/news-iraq4.html
The Right to be a Prisoner of War
It is important to understand that under the customary laws of war combatants have been historically classified in interstate hostilities as either “privileged” or “unprivileged” combatants. The privileged combatant is a person authorized by a party to such an armed conflict to engage in hostilities and thus has the “combatant’s privilege.” This privilege not only entitles him to directly participate in hostilities, but also guarantees him prisoner of war status upon capture and immunity from prosecution by his captor for his lawful acts of war. Members of regular armed forces, including militias or volunteer corps forming such forces, as provided for under Article 4A(1) and (3) of the Third Geneva Convention, are privileged combatants. Although members of regular armed forces are expected to comply with the laws of war, they do not forfeit their right to POW status upon capture even if they commit war crimes. They can, however, be tried and punished for such crimes by their captor.
An “unprivileged” combatant refers to a person who does not have the combatant’s privilege, but nevertheless directly participates in hostilities. Such combatants would include, inter alia, civilians who in violation of their protected status engage in fighting or other hostile acts. However, the law does sanction a levee en masse whereby civilians may spontaneously take up arms in order to resist an invading force. Spontaneity means that there is no time to organize into regular forces. Civilians participating in a levee en masse may qualify for privileged combatant and POW status, provided that they do not conceal their weapons and observe the laws of war. This is the single, limited exception to the proscription against civilians participating in hostilities.
The notion of unprivileged combatants has also been used to describe irregular or part-time combatants, such as guerrillas, partisans and members of resistance groups, who either fail to distinguish themselves from the civilian populations while on active duty or do not otherwise fulfill the requirements for privileged combatant status stated in Article 4A(2) of the Third Convention. This article effectively holds members of independent irregular groups to higher standards than those required of members of regular armed forces.
Specifically, in order to qualify as privileged combatants entitled to POW status, members of irregular groups must comply with the following stringent conditions set forth in sub-paragraph 2 of Article 4A: 1) they must belong to an organized group; 2) they must belong to a party to the conflict; 3) they must be under responsible command; 4) they must have a fixed, distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; 5) they must carry their arms openly and 6) they must conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
Most authorities agree that the first three conditions are applicable to the irregular group collectively, while the final three conditions apply both to the group collectively and its individual members. Thus, if a majority of the members of the group fail to meet, for whatever reason, all or any of the last three conditions at any time, then all members of the group will not qualify for privileged combatant and POW status upon capture. Unlike privileged combatants, therefore, unprivileged combatants can be tried and punished for all their hostile acts, even if they otherwise did not violate the laws of war. It should be understood, however, that unprivileged combatants are not as such war criminals although their specific acts might breach the laws of war.
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War is war. I have no doubt he thought there was immediate risk (I mean, his unit was operating with camera coverage for God's sake! This was no Rodney King deal!). The insurgent wasn't obviously surrendering, wasn't in captivity, there existed a previous pattern of wounded still inflicting casualties... The Marine made a call. Maybe a bad call, maybe not, I would disagree that in house to house fighting with split second decisions that there are many real "bad calls" when your troops are protected by the action.
This is war. Kick in the door, throw in the grenade, shoot whatever moves afterwards before it shoots you. This is not some rear echelon administrative area where he's shooting a bound and gagged prisoner. It's not some peace keeping mission where you don't shoot anybody, sometimes even if you're under fire. This is full scale ground assault.
The only question that must be answered, sooner or later, is if the war itself is just. If not it's just a sad criminal waste of lives and resources. This had really better be a liberation (since the main reason for the war evaporated) and not some failed, unappreciated (by the Iraqi people) foreign policy experiment that backfires.
Charon
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Iraq really is Vietnam in a way, the media coverage.
Vietnam was the first "media war". This coverage resulted in a lot of the media attention being used against the soldiers on the home front.
In some ways, it's happening again...
Would prefer the media stayed in the rear, then maybe had a reporter come in and report on the situation well after organized hostilities have ceased.
-SW
It is turning into Vietnam in another even more disturbing way the way I see it. US servicemen and women are being asked to take the same ground over and over. These guys will risk it all to take that hill or clear this suburb. It is wrong of their leadership to ask them to take it again.
No, I do not yet equate Iraq to Vietnam, I am merely seeing similarities cropping up.
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GS the insurgentrs do not meet several of the requirements, most notably they repeatedly do not follow rules of war.
Legally there is more than enough room to deny them POW privelages if it goes to trial...
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Originally posted by GScholz
If they are shooting at "real soldiers" then they are by definition not terrorists, but guerrillas or otherwise known as irregular forces. And they are protected by the GC ... everyone is. Even civilians taking up arms against an invading enemy.
IIRC the Japanese never signed the GC, they used this as an excuse to torture and behead legitimate POWs. I find it idiotic that the GC can apply to one of the sides in a conflict but not the other simply becasue they refused to sign it. Does anyone have any evidence that Muqtada or Zawahiri, or whichever al ****e-for-brains ever signed onto the GC?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Now it is my turn to ask for proof. Please provide evidence that these men (the ones that got shot) did not follow the rules of war. And what other requirements did they not meet?
From above. The insurgents dont play by the rules, thats established. Here is how it applies to the group and all its members.
"Authorities agree that the first three conditions are applicable to the irregular group collectively, while the final three conditions apply both to the group collectively and its individual members. Thus, if a majority of the members of the group fail to meet, for whatever reason, all or any of the last three conditions at any time, then all members of the group will not qualify for privileged combatant and POW status upon capture. Unlike privileged combatants, therefore, unprivileged combatants can be tried and punished for all their hostile acts, even if they otherwise did not violate the laws of war. It should be understood, however, that unprivileged combatants are not as such war criminals although their specific acts might breach the laws of war."
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
If I were that marine unit now yanno what I would do?
Insist the embedded reporter check to see if these guys are really dead or not from now on.
I LOVE IT!
All CNN personnel...TO THE FRONT!
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Originally posted by GScholz
First, I have not displayed any rage over this incident.
Secondly, I have yet to read someone here arguing that the rebels/whatever were justified in opening fire under a truce (white flag). It's a given that they are not. However I am seeing people here trying to justify shooting four unarmed POWs.
Okay, I thought you're original post was full of rage, but I am mistaken.
As far as the defending in this thread goes, when the enemy uses unusual and cruel means to kill, it tends to rub off on the opposing party. That said, I think the Marine should be brought to justice (which he is).
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Sure we signed the GC, but there are rules in the GCs that allow for people not to have POW rights.
Anyway good discussion GS, I tried hard to resist my usual temptations in these arguments and it turned out ok.
And yea this should certainly be investigated and taken very seriously.
Gotta log for now.
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Originally posted by GScholz
However I am seeing people here trying to justify shooting four unarmed POWs.
They were not proven to be unarmed (hand not in the air) and they were not POWs (arrested/bound/detained). You are right about the poor judgement of the marine in question though. He should not have walked up to those guys and shot them when they moved, he should have lobbed a nade in there and then moved on to the next room. In his shoes at that moment I'd have done the same thing. I could sleep with the death of another terrorist on my shoulder, but not with the death of a buddy beacuse I hesitated.
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I don’t blame him. Read this first.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138507,00.html
mutilated body of what they believe was a Western woman during a sweep of a street in central Fallujah.
From the Washington post last week.
…..Arms and Legs had been hacked off, and the face disfigured…..
The body was lying in the street covered with a blood-soaked cloth.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Natonski also said he had visited a "slaughterhouse" in the northern Jolan neighborhood where hostages were held and possibly killed by militants. He described a small room with no windows and just one door. He said he saw two thin mattresses, straw mats covered in blood and a wheelchair that apparently was used to transport captives.
Also, a Fox News reporter embedded with India Company of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment said the unit found five bodies in a locked house in northwest Fallujah on Wednesday.
All the victims were shot in the back of the head.
Their identities were not known, although there were indications they were civilians, the report said.
U.S. officials believe the al-Qaida-linked terror movement of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who claimed responsibility for many of the kidnappings and beheadings of foreign hostages, used Fallujah as a base. They said they believe al-Zarqawi may have slipped away before the offensive.
[I think I might have felt this way too.]
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20041116/2004-11-16T142730Z_01_N16187653_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-FALLUJA-INVESTIGATION-DC.html
"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."
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So Panama was Vietnam? Was Grenada Vietnam? Was GW1 Vietnam? They all had reporters showing fighting.
Ahem... If I recall correctly Grenada was off limits for the press Rip.
:D
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Originally posted by AWMac
Ahem... If I recall correctly Grenada was off limits for the press Rip.
:D
Off limits to imbedded reporters, yes. To the press in general? I don't think so... if it was, then how did we get these pics (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7963/grenada.htm)shown to us on the evening news?
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UH oh spagettios! Turns out the iraqis were shot up by a different unit of marines, and given medical treatment by the same unit that shot them up on friday, then that unit moved on and left the wounded iraqis there. Then next marine unit comes along on monday, and shoots an unarmed man in the head who had surrendered on friday.
Marines and soldiers are taught that any enemy body maybe fiegning dead, and or booby trapped. And they are also taught how to deal with it. Which is, one man in prone positing covering the body in question with his weapon, while other man aproaches body with weapon slung on his back and checks for traps, ID papers etc. If any funny buisness occurs the searcher rolls the body back onto the object or whatever and dives aside as the covering soldier opens up and hoses the enemy.
Saying a wounded soilder is faking death and shooting him in the head almost sounds like a pretty funny inside joke. If you're into that sort of gallows humor.
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Now that you mention Panama, a very similar incedent occurred in just cause. A pow surrendered with a hidden grenade. At an opportune moment, he used the grenade and killed some 82nd troopers. A company First Sargeant shot and killed the panamanian some time later. That First Sargean was court marshalled.
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What took place by this marine is nothing new to war....right or wrong, the same has existed by all sides throughout all time.
He will be dealt with and one thing for certain....ROE by US troops do not include the killing of unarmed and wounded combatants....to imply they do by anyone here merely shows your ignorance.
The days of clean and tidy Geneva laced fighting have been over for some time now....the western world seems to be the only players to attempt to abide by such noble warrants.
Bottom line.....war is ALWAYS horrific.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
GS the insurgentrs do not meet several of the requirements, most notably they repeatedly do not follow rules of war.
Legally there is more than enough room to deny them POW privelages if it goes to trial...
If other incedents in Iraq deny these insurgents the rights of combatants then this act denies the US soldiers the rights of combatants.
In general though. If an enemy is commited to just inflicting casualties on your side. And you have seen a few of them deliberatly blow themselves up just to get a few of you while you follow the rules..the rules go out the windows.
Those men have an obligation to keep themselves safe. Obviosly there comanders had issued orders to them to watch for certain sitations with enemy wounded and this guy thought he saw that situation.
Put people in that kind of cituation and they will do what they have to do and what makes sense to them at the time.
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I guess it could have been worse. He could have beheaded him, or better yet, hung his body from a bridge.
Just think how much pressure packs cost nowadays. You got to start saving somewhere.
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I feel sorry for this Marine. Obviously he is going through a terrible time, but if story is true he should be punished. Terrorist do not fight for any country they fight for a cause. Therefore Geneva Convention does not apply to them.
I regret the day that this practice becomes exceptable. We are a professional military. We are trained to handle booby trapped bodies and other situations like this. Going around executing people, enemy or not is morally wrong. It makes me sad to see some of you try to justify this. Some of you call yourselves Christians.
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Originally posted by Rude
The days of clean and tidy Geneva laced fighting have been over for some time now....the western world seems to be the only players to attempt to abide by such noble warrants.
Dude, those days never even begun. Think about it, if a country abided by the laws of geneva convention, would we be at war with them? Hell, the soviets, chicom, and north korean soldiers never even heard of the geneva conventions. You think their leaders wanted them to know how well they would be treated if they surrender? Victor Suvorov was a coronel in soviet military intelligence when he defected in the 80s, and he had no idea that hospitals and ambulances weren't lawfull targets.
Bottom line.....war is ALWAYS horrific.
Man everytime I here some ******** say this war is a disaster, or this war is a quagmire, I just want to hit them in the face with a brick. What a stupid thing to say. The day the war in iraq, or any war, improves to the state of disaster, I think we'll see celebratory parades.
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Regardless the circumstances of this killing, this imbedded journalism in the warzone has to go..
Im shure the footage seen is making great progress at winning the hearts and minds of the iraqi people..(though it may only be the braindead ones after abu torture sessions) Good thing Cnn was there to capture that.. (not)
I think its tactical failure on the commanders in region not to kick these bum journalists from my battlefield.. if they want to stay they can; just get the **** away.. and stay at your own risk..
Im against the iraq war.. But at the same time Im a realist... (its a big crap burger and sometimes we all must take a bite.. whats done is done..) and whats real is we are occupying them and as a result its a war... But these tactical failures over and over again from video torture sessions to murder on cable TV has to go if we want to see this thing thru.....
IMO we are sinking fast over there.. How do we telegraph the falluja attack so that they relocate (thats ******* bull ****) thats tactically inept to say the least.. if we continue to play tiddly winks with intelligence info on our attacks how the hell are we going to win a guerilla war.. A prime example is when we hit falluja they relocated and hit 3 other cities.. wtf.. where was the perimeter.. Ill tell you.. it wasn't in place when the freaking news was talking their jive... as a result they get the tipoff.. and adapt to meet our threat... pathetic display of tactics..
We better get smarter or set this occupation in the L column as opposed to the W column...
DoctorYO
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Originally posted by GScholz
I don't know about the Chinese and North Koreans, but the Soviets sure did know about the GC. Even in the most barbaric battle ever fought (eastern front WWII) the Soviets initially followed the GC and requested through their embassy in Sweden that the Germans to do the same.
lol
Why anyone takes Gshlotz seriously is beyhond me.
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Remember those fake american soldiers in the ardennes . They where shot.... but after a trial.
This marine played judge himself
It was wrong but understandable that means i do not symphatize that.
its time Bush goes Iraq and solve the problem instead of sending out those young man to Iraq.
Dogs of war they are always there.
That damned war mongering president Bush is the biggest prob.
Colin powell left the head of the national security left.
Its a big sign something is wrong stupid Bush voters u allushould go to Iraq U are responsible for more drama death and violence
Gawddamn in what world are my little girls gonna grow up.
:mad:
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Gawddamn in what world are my little girls gonna grow up.
:mad:
Probably in the good old USA. Everyone wants to come here.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Probably in the good old USA. Everyone wants to come here.
Ain't that the truth. Well, except for all those whiney bastards threatening to move to Canada. Wonder how many have left yet. I suspect none/zero/zilch, too bad.
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Truly when i was young i adored the USA
I like many things of it but Bush is just the deepest sinkin point the states ever got into
Ill keep flying the P38 ;)
and eat mc donalds KFC and do the burger king while drinkin my favourit coca cola
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
the head of the national security left.
:mad:
Yup, to become the SecState. Going to be hard to find someone to work that detail.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Remember those fake american soldiers in the ardennes . They where shot.... but after a trial.
This marine played judge himself
It was wrong but understandable that means i do not symphatize that.
its time Bush goes Iraq and solve the problem instead of sending out those young man to Iraq.
Dogs of war they are always there.
That damned war mongering president Bush is the biggest prob.
Colin powell left the head of the national security left.
Its a big sign something is wrong stupid Bush voters u allushould go to Iraq U are responsible for more drama death and violence
Gawddamn in what world are my little girls gonna grow up.
:mad:
The world you get when you sit on your stand up for nothing, tolerate everything, pat yourselves on the back and blame America for everything ass....maybe the kind of world you get when a Dutch battalion stands by while 6-8000 muslims are slaughtered in Bosnia....or perhaps the kind of world when you won't stand up for what is right and what is wrong and prefer to ride the fence of I'm better than you are because I stand for peace..... that's the world you're girls will grow up in.
Sometimes you stand down and let things pass for the better of everyone....this time, that posture by two US administrations brought us 9/11.
We're going to do what is necessary to protect our interests here and abroad....won't be perfect, won't be fun, won't be easy and evidently, it won't be with any help from the UN.
Don't fret though....I'm certain the day is coming when Al Queda lights off a nuke in a US city....then the world can rejoice in how we finally got what we deserve for being such uncaring bastards throughout history!
Cia!
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Originally posted by Rude
The world you get when you sit on your stand up for nothing, tolerate everything, pat yourselves on the back and blame America for everything ass....maybe the kind of world you get when a Dutch battalion stands by while 6-8000 muslims are slaughtered in Bosnia....or perhaps the kind of world when you won't stand up for what is right and what is wrong and prefer to ride the fence of I'm better than you are because I stand for peace..... that's the world you're girls will grow up in.
Sometimes you stand down and let things pass for the better of everyone....this time, that posture by two US administrations brought us 9/11.
We're going to do what is necessary to protect our interests here and abroad....won't be perfect, won't be fun, won't be easy and evidently, it won't be with any help from the UN.
Don't fret though....I'm certain the day is coming when Al Queda lights off a nuke in a US city....then the world can rejoice in how we finally got what we deserve for being such uncaring bastards throughout history!
Cia!
:aok
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Yeah!!!! What RUDE said!
:aok
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Yeah..double Yeah!! now where's that freakin gay thumb thing.
:aok got it
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Of course the USSR knew about the geneva conventions, that's why they kept it a secret from their own military. If you can find a source from a defected soviet cold warrior that states he witness soldiers being eductated about the gen cons. Then I'd like to see it, and if it's not a defector saying it, I'm not going to believe it. I hope you understand.
Ever notice every now and then, when North Koreans specops find themselves the least bit compromised they go on postal rampages?
The geneva conventions is a far greater psyops weapon than it is a guardian of chivalry.
BTW did you know the special operations forces are not protected by geneva conventions, as they are not "lawfull combatants" ie they wear no markings on uniforms, they sometimes where other countries uniforms, etc. I had been told this once by SF dudes when I asked them why 18Ds don't carry Gen con ID cards. I guess because a lot of their activities are closer to espionage than warfare.
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BTW you can thank Mr Colin "you break it you buy it" Powel for the current iraq situation. You could blame Bush sr too for listening to Powell's decision to stop the offensive and not go on to a real victory in desert storm. The entire coalition would've gladly gone on to Baghdad.
One repeating gripe that the Saudis of Bin Ladin's ilk have voiced is that we did not oust saddam in 91. We left him there so that we could stay in Saudi and Kuwait, and keep a hand and a foot in the arabian oil barrel. In some eyes we had become the preservers of not one but two tyranical arabian regimes. It's not such an implausibility that our reluctance to liberate Iraq contributed to 9/11.
You break it you own it.
:rolleyes:
Thank you very much for your pearl of wisdom old man, but we're trying to glue the shards from 91 back together.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Boroda, did you know the Geneva Conventions when you were in the armed forces of the USSR?
Why do you ask him such questions? You want him to lose his job or worse?
Besides I asked for a source from a former soviet. And you asked the guy who you don't even believe most of the time.
Beside that, he was a teenager when the states broke apart.
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No I obviously don't ********. You're getting pissy and that was a ****ty thing to say, that was tantamount to an insult. I don't even know if it's foolish of me to expect an apology. For all you know I could be russian. You can use soviet cold war propoganda for a reference if you want. You damn well know any 80s soviet military educational literature is going to be ridiculous. Nobody who posts on these boards is a cold warrior who escaped from the east bloc. So it's pointless to ask anybody here.
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Why not nuke the world before they gonna nuke u.
Oh and what about N korea.
it's got much more potentional than Iraq ever had
it's stupid ignorant to call in the alquada here because there wasn't any in Iraq
hey and now there is
actually the whole act over there is feeding it
But keep believe in that president of yours
theoretically bush stood closer with alquada than saddam ever did.
I wish iraq to be a democratic country.
but the way is goes now is to fast
and just simply impossible
oh and the dutch have troops there
and i won't say my country is perfect
It's just stupid to say yours is.
Keep the ignorance
:aok
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Pres. Bush did not go on to take Iraq in Desert Storm because he followed the U.N. mandate to just liberate Kuwait and throw the Iraqis out. Thats what happens when you follow a U.N. mandate.
Now the people who voted for that mandate criticize him for following it.
Its time the send the corrupt money grubbing useless UN packing.
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Yeah fk the UN
everyone for himself is way better
let's get back to the good old times.
more war is good we got a over population anyway
:aok
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Originally posted by ramzey
arent this rules make us more civilised and democratic country on the world? If we broke them , put a side, suspend, how much they are worth? nothing. Its hit to core of everything what we belive, right??
Wow.... it sounds very easy for you to spend the lives of marines for YOUR sense of right and wrong in a war zone.
So, even while insurgents are playing possum to kill marines that are trained to aid the enemy wounded, you would rather see a marine die from a trick like that than live by not taking that chance?
The wounded was a terrorist. he has joined the cause of men that are sawing off the heads of civilians..... why would you rather see a Marine risk his life by taking such a chance for that type of animal?
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Originally posted by GScholz
I didn't mean to insult you. Miko was a "cold warrior", even fought in Afghanistan. Too bad he was banned from this board. Are there any other ex-USSR people here? I seriously doubt I'll find any references of defectors talking about the GC.
If that ignore list gets any longer, you'll not be reading anything on this board except what you agree with! :lol :rofl With your fragile ego, that might be best for you GS.
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I remember Miko recomending Suvorov's books, so that may give us some insight on what Miko would say.
I did not know that he was cold warrior. Maybe he's on checksix.net.
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Now that you mention Panama, a very similar incedent occurred in just cause. A pow surrendered with a hidden grenade. At an opportune moment, he used the grenade and killed some 82nd troopers. A company First Sargeant shot and killed the panamanian some time later. That First Sargean was court marshalled.
And found innocent by that Court Martial.
As I am sure this Marine will be too. The bad guys are faking being wounded and killing the people who come to redender aid.
You can't fault a man in that situation for making an error on the side of his own, his buddies, and any innocent people in the area's safety.
Listening to the tape, he does not sound like a cold hearted killer too me. He just sounds extremely scared.
Crumpp
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again understandable but it's not good
especialy for a camera
what u think they gonna make prisoners now
:(
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what u think they gonna make prisoners now
Maybe the bad guys will make the hostages leave the plush hotels and get rid of the caterers?
Who knows maybe they will start sawing peoples heads off with butter knives. They might start to film it while the poor people scream for 10 minutes until they finally can work the knife into the vertabre and cut the spinal chord.
They might even post it on the web so folks can see it and blame the US.
Crumpp
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/16/iraq.hassan/index.html
Go see what these insurgents have done to Margaret Hassan!
Perhaps taking no prisoners when dealing with illegal combatants (non military insurgents) is the appropriate thing to do. I recall the beheading videos and I am inclined to prefer to see them all lined up and shot to death myself. Some human beings deserved to be killed.
Bush is doing the world a favour that no other man has the balls to do, with perhaps the exception of Blair but Blair doesn't have a large enough military to undertake such an operation on his own.
Bush is completely right going after these savage bastard barbarians with the USMC. Who else would have the guts to do what he is doing?
Just my opinion.
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Originally posted by Suave
I remember Miko recomending Suvorov's books, so that may give us some insight on what Miko would say.
I did not know that he was cold warrior. Maybe he's on checksix.net.
Oh no! Never read Suvorov. Except you want to get a portion of incredible lye.
I can answer you for Boroda. Soldiers in ex-USSR army were ruled by "Army Law", Boroda can translate it more correctly. So, if something were written there it was a law and rule for a soldier. As I remember, there were parts of GC. But without links to the whole document. So, the word GC wasn't there. Some rules are exactly as in GC. Some are very near to original.
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so bug... you liked the world better when the sadman was running things in iraq? your little girl was safer than from the big bad Americans? Bush is evil but whoever you have for a dictator in your country is a saint? quit being such a hypocrite.
lazs
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Originally posted by Estel
Oh no! Never read Suvorov. Except you want to get a portion of incredible lye.
LOL, That's funny, Miko said the exact opposite.
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Saddam was a big A-hole
glad he is gone
Stalin was a big A-hole still he was there on the right time i'm glad he was there.
Russia did it the natural way without interference the solved their dictatorial communism
That's the way
Not the the fast way it happens now
The citizens of Iraq lived years under terror.
Don't expect them to act normal they just don't know how.
It takes a long proces of generations to get there.
It ain't simple black and white like u guys want to see it
There is an inbetween.
But u guys will see it ain't over yet
Unfortunaly it takes alot off ur fellow countrymen i regret that.
Ask the familys of the died soldiers to continue the war.
Ask the children without their daddys if they understand.
U guys stiill think Iraq got something to do with 9-11
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Bug, your last item, I don't believe that Saddam had links to Al Queda like the main stream press reports (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39061), but I do think the action was prevention for another potential 9/11.
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so bug... since you are willing to watch the terror and torture you figure everyone else should too.... what would be a good time period for you to think stepping in would work? maybe wait a couple more decades? maybe wait till the sadman starts up his nuclear program again? You don't think that maybe getting a foothold in the region is a good idea? giving the terrorists fewer and fewer countries to have the run of and the support from? WMD.. 9/11? he had something to do with both in that he has allways been a safe haven for terrorists. I call what we are doing there a good start... I call what you are doing.... hypocritical.
as for the original post... if a combatant moves and you even suspect it may be agressive you shoot him.... end of story. If his fellow "freedom fighters" have been playing ded and then opening up on legal troops then you have every right to expect that any move from a "wounded freedomfighter" will be to kill you or yours.
Want to blame someone for being a war criminal? blame the guy who came up with the fake surrender plan.
lazs
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hypocryt than Iraq is not the only country in terror.
free N korea
free every country that disrespect human rights than ur going straight
it's just not that simple.
Look at china they getting along without interference.
could we have interfered ??
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Bug
(http://www.evsc.k12.in.us/schoolzone/schools/plaza/plaza2/Animated%20Gifs/hearts_burst_from_heart_hw.gif)
Pres Bush
get a room pls
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Love u too
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But it wasn't a fake surrender. That's the thing. The iraqi had allready surrendered to the marines on friday, and recieved some treatment for his wounds. The next unit of marines didn't find him untill monday. He was unarmed, and possibly barely alive. Maybe the army softened up my mind but I just can't see how laying perfectly still and playing dead is justification for instant execution. He shot a wounded pow in the head at near point blank. I don't see how you guys can rationalize that so easily.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
hypocryt than Iraq is not the only country in terror.
free N korea
free every country that disrespect human rights than ur going straight
it's just not that simple.
Look at china they getting along without interference.
could we have interfered ??
Why can't the rest of the Eurotards help out a little? Send half your Army. We'll feed both of them.
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Its easy from the chair behind the monitor that's why.
:rolleyes:
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Yeah, Bug, on behalf of all american's I'd like to apologize for everyting we needlessly put your country through under the guise of "liberation". We really shouldn't have. Things would've worked themselves out naturally, just like the USSR did despite our long cold war. Which probably just prolonged the soviet state anyway.
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Why can't the rest of the Eurotards help out a little? Send half your Army. We'll feed both of them.
We have marines, army over there
what u wanna say
we euro tards have a long history of war making
maybe we learned a bit more
"CowBoys"
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You have a long history of us saving your but, you meant.
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Actually he means that his enlightened country had a little something called the 100 years war. And before that it was pretty much continues war, and after that it was pretty much continuous war.
Then the USA and the UK and the USSR came and sat in their back yard with the bomb and nobody made a peep for 60 years. So now Bug feels qualified to enligten us on the finer european ways of peacekeeping.
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ur kidding
it's russia where germans got stuck on
13 million russians died
Usa came on the right time
i'm very thankfull we didn't become communist don't understand me wrong.
but europe history goes longer than the last war longer than it (america)really got discovered by the euro tards
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
ur kidding
it's russia where germans got stuck on
13 million russians died
Usa came on the right time
i'm very thankfull we didn't become communist don't understand me wrong.
but europe history goes longer than the last war longer than it (america)really got discovered by the euro tards
Europeans discovered america ? I allways thought that was funny when I sat in elementary school. We'd learn how Colombus discovered america. Then we'd learn about the people that were allready living here, lol.
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Portugal is not europe and we killed the natives there not much left off them isn't it
Oh it was for christianity
those indians where animals too
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Iraq is quickly turning into the next worse thing for the US military since Vietnam. And like Vietnam the more negative images like this then the more likely it is the general population at home will turn against the war It only took two very vivid and striking images on the news for that to happen in Vietnam.
Bush can call them terroists as much as he likes and try to connect battles like Falluja as the killing of terroists. But what he's landed his military into is an occupation of another country and a Guriella War in the worst environment possible. Urban.
...-Gixer
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Now that the discussions has gone far enough, I shall leave the sarcasm aside. (well, that one short post)
War is war. In the combat zone, if you grab á weapon, get a sucky wound and get killed by the enemy coming in to check the house.. too bad. Should of thought twice before doing so.
In an actual war, where there isn't a clear advantage over the enemy, it simply isn't possible to drag along prisoners you might find on the way. So what do you do? Shoot them of course. You don't want the prisoners to grab a gun and shoot half of your team, while trying to accomplish your mission, with no capability to look after the prisoners.
Once again, the enemy should of thought better... either to try and defend to death or pull back and surrender when possible (rather surrender before, when it would also be possible).
Especially the insurgents are hard to determine, whether they're going to blow up half your team, when given the chance, or not.
They're either frozen by fear and ****ted their pants or waiting to cook off a grenade.
But this case... didn't the american soldiers already learn? DO NOT DO IT WHEN THERE ARE CAMERAS FOLLOWING YOU, IDIOT.
Now good part of the muslim world is seeing nothing but the videos and news broadcasts of the evil american soldiers, who will rape and kill their allah fearing children.
Great stuff.. that soldier must been a real handsomehunk. Well, now hes likely ruined his own life (unless saved by the US govt.) and made some of the terrorist bosses happy of the free propaganda.
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Originally posted by Staga
Well one thing is sure; US just got plenty of new enemies.
Oh well; You reap what you sew.
They can wait in line just like the rest.:mad:
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With a nod to The Who:
We'll be fighting in the streets
With dead terrorists at our feet
And the evil that they practice will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song
I'll tip my kevlar to the new constitution
Take a shot at the new revolution
Smile and grin at the dead insurgents all around
Pick up my M16 and spray
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!
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Originally posted by RedTop
They can wait in line just like the rest.:mad:
Let me guess... 16 ?
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Originally posted by GScholz
.....Is hardly the correct way to take prisoners.
Its perfect. Less hassle that way.
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Originally posted by Rude
The world you get when you sit on your stand up for nothing, tolerate everything, pat yourselves on the back and blame America for everything ass....maybe the kind of world you get when a Dutch battalion stands by while 6-8000 muslims are slaughtered in Bosnia....or perhaps the kind of world when you won't stand up for what is right and what is wrong and prefer to ride the fence of I'm better than you are because I stand for peace..... that's the world you're girls will grow up in.
Sometimes you stand down and let things pass for the better of everyone....this time, that posture by two US administrations brought us 9/11.
We're going to do what is necessary to protect our interests here and abroad....won't be perfect, won't be fun, won't be easy and evidently, it won't be with any help from the UN.
Don't fret though....I'm certain the day is coming when Al Queda lights off a nuke in a US city....then the world can rejoice in how we finally got what we deserve for being such uncaring bastards throughout history!
Cia!
oh oh..rude is posting his true feelings again. we know where that got us last time.
pre war whining by rude (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79158&perpage=50&highlight=iraq&pagenumber=1)
well rude. You pulled up in front of Bagdad and they gave you the country. How many dead are there now anyway?
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Originally posted by Staga
Let me guess... 16 ?
16? :rofl :rofl
edited: It's just not worth it.
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is that your look at democracy?
thos one are good who agree with you, somone who have diferent opinion is enemy and not worth a penny?
you know, one guy with funny mustasches had same idea about 70 years go
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not my look at all....and as edited above........
it's not even worth the effort to explain it anymore.
So much hatred here on this BBS and in MY OWN country for this country.....Turns my friggin stomach at times.
And to think I served in the Military to protect their rights.:confused:
And don't compare me to Hitler.......ever:mad:
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Well what if we compare you to the SS troops (Not Waffen-SS but those others); also they didn't had much problems executing wounded prisoners but in those times it was a "no no" and when they got caught they were executed, if not immediately after capture then after martial court.
Have rules changed lately ?
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To know God , you must expierance God.
Redtop do you believe in God ?
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Your not allowed to redefine the word "hate" to mean anyone that disgrees with you.
your not microsoft.
or are you.
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It's war, stuff like this happens in war. If you start a war expect this. Both sides are fighting for their country and their way of life. Both sides think they're the good guys and both commit atrocities. If you think anything else then you are a fool. There are no good wars.
The fuss over this one incident is a farce. That kind of thing happens every day off camera. Marines murder people and so do the terrorists. There is no army that is not guilty of atrocities. Because armies are made up of humans and humans are killers. That Marine was wrong to shoot that man...........in front of the camera and because it made naive people out there realise that the glowing moral crusade they fondly imagine this war to be is just as brutal and vicious as any war.
They say the first casualty of war is the truth and you won't see truth again until long after the war.
RedTop calm down, your annoyance is understandable but it makes you look ridiculous. Remember the war was called 'Iraqi Freedom'. Freedom is the important word here. It works both ways.
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Originally posted by Staga
Well what if we compare you to the SS troops (Not Waffen-SS but those others); also they didn't had much problems executing wounded prisoners but in those times it was a "no no" and when they got caught they were executed, if not immediately after capture then after martial court.
Have rules changed lately ?
When you are fighting vermin that resort to waving white flags or feigning death or injury only start to shooting when approached the "rules" go out the window. These vermin have no one to blame but themselves. Do they believe they will make us look bad to the rest of the world by forcing us to kill surrendering or wounded troops? Who gives a rats ass? Well, besides those idiots posting on the "We're Sorry" site.
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has any country in the history of warfare not had at least a few examples of executing prisoners..
I know canada is guilty. I bet all are.
We dont brag about it and no one went to jail for it for some reason..but we definalty did so.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Your not allowed to redefine the word "hate" to mean anyone that disgrees with you.
your not microsoft.
or are you.
I didn't redefine anything.
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Originally posted by Staga
Redtop do you believe in God ?
What does my relegious beliefs have to do with anything here?
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Originally posted by Pongo
has any country in the history of warfare not had at least a few examples of executing prisoners..
I know canada is guilty. I bet all are.
We dont brag about it and no one went to jail for it for some reason..but we definalty did so.
Yes, same here, it's routine in war. Remember the scene in Band of Brothers when Captain Winters only allowed the man escorting prisoners one round of ammo because he knew he would shoot them all.
During our civil war the Irish army shot prisoners in reprisals and in one case killed eight prisoners by blowing them up with a mine.
No army is free of atrocities. It's never justified but it happens all the time.
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Originally posted by AKIron
When you are fighting vermin that resort to waving white flags or feigning death or injury only start to shooting when approached the "rules" go out the window. These vermin have no one to blame but themselves. Do they believe they will make us look bad to the rest of the world by forcing us to kill surrendering or wounded troops? Who gives a rats ass? Well, besides those idiots posting on the "We're Sorry" site.
Ahh... Guess you think SS-troops weren't then bad at all; they just executed civilians they thought were in "Resistance" like good soldiers should do then and now.
Okay :)
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Originally posted by Staga
Ahh... Guess you think SS-troops weren't then bad at all; they just executed civilians they thought were in "Resistance" like good soldiers should do then and now.
Okay :)
What an ass. (first time I've used that comment, should say something, eh?)
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Oh, and the BBSAS is now at Alert code color YELLOW--"ELEVATED".
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131907&referrerid=3203
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Originally posted by Staga
Ahh... Guess you think SS-troops weren't then bad at all; they just executed civilians they thought were in "Resistance" like good soldiers should do then and now.
Okay :)
I don't know how you can get that from what I said but whatever floats yer boat.
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Originally posted by Staga
Well what if we compare you to the SS troops (Not Waffen-SS but those others); also they didn't had much problems executing wounded prisoners but in those times it was a "no no" and when they got caught they were executed, if not immediately after capture then after martial court.
Have rules changed lately ?
Don't compare me to anything. Especially the SS or Hitler.
Ahh... Guess you think SS-troops weren't then bad at all; they just executed civilians they thought were in "Resistance" like good soldiers should do then and now.
Ripsnort put it politely to you Staga !!
Why don't you just say what your thinking....American Troops are SS or Nazis. Your inference is right there. Just say it and quit beating around the bush.
That Marine didn't execute anyone. He dang sure didn't execute a "Civilian". Neither as any other troop in this WAR in Iraq or do you have some "proof"? No...you don't.
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I don't think US troops are Nazies or that Americans are Nazies; it's just bizarre that some of you are justifying behaviour what made SS-troops famous, and which often took them in martial courts after the war and sentence usually, if not always, being death.
If you think that killing was justified then you also have to think think SS-troops were innocent for killing civilians; they just used field courts just like that marine; being prosecutor, judge and executor in same person.
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No idea what Ripsnort says and couldn't care less; I got tired of his cut'n'pastes and put him on my ignore list with Martlet :)
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Originally posted by Staga
Well what if we compare you to the SS troops (Not Waffen-SS but those others); also they didn't had much problems executing wounded prisoners but in those times it was a "no no" and when they got caught they were executed, if not immediately after capture then after martial court.
Have rules changed lately ?
Sorry to dissapoint you but there is somewhat of a difference between taking prisoners lining them up and machinegunning them down, and shooting an alleged prisoner who very well could have been hiding and ready to use a gun or explosive device.
Just heard on the news not 5 min ago that this very same unit lost a man the day before to a booby trapped dead guy.
Considering these guys we're up against think ts a great thing to blow themselves up while killing us. Its not too far of a stretch and certainly not unreasonable for these Marines to think this guy could very well have had a grenade or other explosive device ready for detonation.
Had he had a single grenade he could very well have taken out every marine in the room including the reporter.
In light of the mindset of the enemy we are against. And the actions that enemy has taken in recent days. Boobytrapping dead people, Pretending to be dead.
The marine in question was hardly unjustified in his actions.
A soldiers first and formost priority should be in keeping himself and the fellow members in his unit safe and alive.
Everything else is secondary.
Its far easier to second guess when your sitting in your comfy chair in your comfy house where your all nice and safe and your largest danger is in stubbing your toe on the way to the bathroom or in getting another beer then it is when your in combat, when opening the next door or turning over the next body can bring you instant death.
Second guessing at home means nothing more then you can get a third guess.
Second guessing on a battlefeild can get you put in a body bag if you guess wrong
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Staga
Civilians being executed is not what happened there. Now if you don't see that then you may not understand who the US is fighting.
The Insurgents , Terrorists , freedom fighters , paid killers , whatever tag you put on them are not civilians. When you pick up a gun and start fightinig the american servicmen you become a combatant. Big Difference.
No matter if that guy was wounded or what. He WAS a Terrorist / Combatant.
Do I think that the Marine was justified? I have no idea because I don't know the facts. Only a tape.
Lets try this...think a second about this.....
You been fighting an enemy for HOURS and HOURS..Days...and in that time you see dead people. You see people that were supposedly dead and in a split second , when they are just being checked they blow up a bomb and kill your buddies. You see this. And you hear of it happening in other parts of the battlefield.
Now you go to a building that you see the same senario possibly playing out. So , you decide not to let that happen again you fire. Bad choice? Possibly. But understandable.
Our Military is not killing civilians on purpose. It's not happening. Are Civilians being killed? Sure. But not on purpose by our guys. They are bing killed by the terrorists.
Kidnappings , be-headings , executions of innocent people are the terrorists doings. Reports of places where they are finding bodies of tortured civilians , beheaded people. Slaughter houses that the TERRORISTS held. Places they did the attrocities.
Bad things happen in war. I'm not justifying it by simply saying GOOD FOR HIM. I'm simply saying that until all the facts are in and NOT just some tape , my judgement is he acted in what he may have thought to be the best interest of his buds. IF he was committing cold blooded murder then he was wrong and should pay the price.
It just seems that it's so simple for everyone that doesn't like what is going on , to FUEL the fire with this type of CRAP.
It's never looked at as an isolated incident. It's looked at like it is standard practice.
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Originally posted by Staga
I don't think US troops are Nazies or that Americans are Nazies; it's just bizarre that some of you are justifying behaviour what made SS-troops famous, and which often took them in martial courts after the war and sentence usually, if not always, being death.
If you think that killing was justified then you also have to think think SS-troops were innocent for killing civilians; they just used field courts just like that marine; being prosecutor, judge and executor in same person.
considering that this Marine saw his buddy killed the day before, and the fact he got shot in the face the day before(musta been a crease, cant get closer then that), and the fact he had been in combat for days,would seem to be mitigating circumstances. And the fact that at the time they did'nt know these guys were in there from a fight before,If that dude on the floor had even twitched he was justified.
Thats different then lineing civilains up to the wall and pulling the trigger.
and the film is'nt clear enough to tell if he moved or not anyway.
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Still trying to justify of executioning of a wounded prisoner of a war who was captured by US troops day before?
Okay; it's your choice.
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Originally posted by Staga
Still trying to justify of executioning of a wounded prisoner of a war who was captured by US troops day before?
Okay; it's your choice.
He isn't a prisoner of war. He's a terrorist. They should shoot them all.
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Originally posted by Staga
Still trying to justify of executioning of a wounded prisoner of a war who was captured by US troops day before?
Okay; it's your choice.
Some international legal experts are saying that it was justified. The main question is weather he was a prisoner.
Why not wait to hear the real details before becoming such a frothing lunatic?
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Nuke they can't wait because they have too much fun bashing the US sesrvice members and using cute little terms like nazi for those who may not agree with them. :rolleyes: If they wait there may be information that they won't like or find out their rant might not have been justified.
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Originally posted by Staga
Still trying to justify of executioning of a wounded prisoner of a war who was captured by US troops day before?
Okay; it's your choice.
I give Staga...stalemate.
Not gonna argue what is clearly not the same as lining up civilians and killing them.
You wanna be sympathetic to the Insurgents or "Civilians" as you called em..then so be it.
Have a nice life
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Sheeesh, give our soldiers a friggin break already. If the Iraqi "freedom fighters" didn't use tatics like booby trapping bodies, or blowing themselves up to take out an enemy, then we wouldn't have to make damn sure they were dead before we could consider them neutralized. WTF do you think happened at Iwo Jima in WW2? Same thing- the enemy is there to fight, and willing to die to take you out.
This Marine did the right thing- he perceived a threat from a known enemy, presumably willing to die for his cause, and he acted most prudently...the number one priority in a war is to get your bellybutton home in one piece.If anything this should be a training video on how to treat enemies willing to blow themselves up just to take you out.
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Originally posted by Staga
Ahh... Guess you think SS-troops weren't then bad at all; they just executed civilians they thought were in "Resistance" like good soldiers should do then and now.
Okay :)
i think you miss the point
Topic is about 1 or couple marines who commited crime
not about unit who was dedicated to sloughter civilians
you cannot compare whole corps of mostly honorable mens to unit of criminals
even if that war is unfair
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The more I think about it, the more I stand behind the marine.
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Originally posted by NUKE
The more I think about it, the more I stand behind the marine.
same here
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Originally posted by Airhead
Sheeesh, give our soldiers a friggin break already. If the Iraqi "freedom fighters" didn't use tatics like booby trapping bodies, or blowing themselves up to take out an enemy, then we wouldn't have to make damn sure they were dead before we could consider them neutralized. WTF do you think happened at Iwo Jima in WW2? Same thing- the enemy is there to fight, and willing to die to take you out.
This Marine did the right thing- he perceived a threat from a known enemy, presumably willing to die for his cause, and he acted most prudently...the number one priority in a war is to get your bellybutton home in one piece.If anything this should be a training video on how to treat enemies willing to blow themselves up just to take you out.
what he said
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Originally posted by Staga
Still trying to justify of executioning of a wounded prisoner of a war who was captured by US troops day before?
Okay; it's your choice.
Best thing about this situation is that we didn't subject ourselves to any world court so your opinion really doesn't mean squat. The most you can do about it is post your angst here.
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Heres the bigger question: is Columbus In fact.......
HIMMLER!!!!!!!!!!!OH JEEBUS!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Dago
Rush to judgement without the facts tards. You do Dan Rather proud.
dago
Don't have the link off hand but watch the unedited version of the video. Think it was a NBC embedded reporter that shot the footage.
In the part of the video they've shown on TV where it's blacked out is the part that will show the Marine firing a burst at close range into the Iraqi that was cleary severly wounded and unarmed. There is also voice shouting out right before the gunshots that one of the Iraqi wounded was only playing dead. Seconds afterwards is when the other Marine lets off a burst that hit the Iraqi in the chest and head, blood splattering the walls behind him.
Sometimes the facts do speak for themselves.
ack-ack
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cleary severly wounded and unarmed
Funny, I saw the same video and concluded he could have easily had a grenade on his person. I'm amazed that you could see in his pockets and in his wasteband.
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Originally posted by Steve
Funny, I saw the same video and concluded he could have easily had a grenade on his person. I'm amazed that you could see in his pockets and in his wasteband.
also wallet, medications, portrait of saddam,flowers ..........
or even wmd
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You are going to war on some moral high pretext ( restoring democracy to a country crushed by a dictator perhaps? ) You'd better make damn sure that your troops maintain that moral high ground. descending to the level of some of your opponents destroys your moral legitimacy.
Sometimes you have to rise above the lowest level! Shooting unarmed woulnded people is decending.
We should just get out of there. Iraq is a new vietnam with one difference. Our idiot government has got us involved too!
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staga... I would not condem an SS trooper of WWII for shooting a wounded civilian freedom fighter who had been shooting at him earlier and whos buddies had in the past played ded to further aggression.
If the trooper says that he thought the guy was making a susspicio0us move... that is good enough for me. The nazis made no such pretense or claim. Like most european armies they simply slaughtered civilians and wounded as a matter of course.
the best place for a german male born after 1915 to be was in a U.S. prison camp.
lazs
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You'd better make damn sure that your troops maintain that moral high ground.
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130,000 people, a few will screw up. Get over it.
Sometimes you have to rise above the lowest level! Shooting unarmed woulnded people is decending.
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you weren't there. didn't hear, feel, smell, sense in any way any thing other than whatever media you choose to believe has told you.
We should just get out of there. Iraq is a new vietnam with one difference. Our idiot government has got us involved too!
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You were in vietnam? If so your statement here has some validity. If not.........
the contribution of your country is small enough to allow for a pretty rapid withdrawl if it becomes necessary to retreat (with alot of people thinking like you its a likely outcome anyway). In fact, Im surprised the UK is still in Iraq, it being all horrible and everything.
all in all a pretty depressing post there tinbot
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fd-ski wrote :
Reverse the situation and tell me it would be justified.
You all would be breaking your keyboards posting about "fuc.ing barbaric *******s executing helpless man"...
Hypocrites.
Every US serviceman knows his obligations within Geneva Convention. I'm sure this trooper does as well.
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Originally posted by Staga
No idea what Ripsnort says and couldn't care less; I got tired of his cut'n'pastes and put him on my ignore list with Martlet :)
Would someone kindly quote reply to my post above so that Staga *can* see what I said about him? :) Thank you.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Oh, and the BBSAS is now at Alert code color YELLOW--"ELEVATED".
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131907&referrerid=3203
Heh.
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Originally posted by Staga
Still trying to justify of executioning of a wounded prisoner of a war who was captured by US troops day before?
Okay; it's your choice.
Are you that ignorant or did you have to learn stupidity Staga? Seems to have came natural to you. Even after it's all explained to you you still rant your idiotic spewl. Have you ever served? Ever been in combat pissant? Ohhh wait you're Norweigian, that explains alot now. Moron.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Are you that ignorant or did you have to learn stupidity Staga? Seems to have came natural to you. Even after it's all explained to you you still rant your idiotic spewl. Have you ever served? Ever been in combat pissant? Ohhh wait you're Norweigian, that explains alot now. Moron.
fd-ski wrote :
Reverse the situation and tell me it would be justified.
You all would be breaking your keyboards posting about "fuc.ing barbaric *******s executing helpless man"...
Hypocrites.
Every US serviceman knows his obligations within Geneva Convention. I'm sure this trooper does as well.
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Ok... if Americans were boobytrapping our dead and pretending to surrender and then oppening up on uniformed soliers in iraq and pretending to be wounded...
I guess I wouldn't/couldn't blame an iraqi soldier who shot an American wounded in civilian clothes who had been shooting at him earlier and was moving to get a grenade or wallet or .... something.
there... I put myself in the reverse situation. happy now?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... if Americans were boobytrapping our dead and pretending to surrender and then oppening up on uniformed soliers in iraq and pretending to be wounded...
I guess I wouldn't/couldn't blame an iraqi soldier who shot an American wounded in civilian clothes who had been shooting at him earlier and was moving to get a grenade or wallet or .... something.
there... I put myself in the reverse situation. happy now?
lazs
No,
So the Iraqi was not wounded? And he was boobytrapped?
The mosque had been used by insurgents to attack US forces, who had stormed it a day earlier, killing 10 militants and wounding five.
At least three severely wounded men are seen in a room inside the building - two are slumped against one of the walls, partially covered with a blanket.
The NBC's Kevin Sites says the wounded men had been left in the mosque after being treated by a group of marines following Friday's fighting.
Mr Sites says soldiers from a different unit went and apparently shot the men again on Saturday without knowing whether they were armed.
"Then one of the marines points his rifle at the head of one of the injured, an old man, saying, 'He's faking he's dead'," Mr Sites' description continues.
"The sound of a shot is then heard. And in the background, another soldier says, 'Well, he's dead now'."
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Originally posted by Maniac
No,
So the Iraqi was not wounded? And he was boobytrapped?
Not THAT particular one, but many others...what Lazs is trying to say is, better to be sure rather than chance them taking you with them. After all, these guys don't take prisoners except if they plan on filming the execution.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Not THAT particular one, but many others...what Lazs is trying to say is, better to be sure rather than chance them taking you with them. After all, these guys don't take prisoners except if they plan on filming the execution.
So, you "good guys" are better than the Iraqi barbarians how?
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Originally posted by Maniac
So, you "good guys" are better than the Iraqi barbarians how?
99.9% are "good guys", you're always going to have a wild one in the bunch...on the other hand, the enemy is 99.9% evil as you've evidently been watching on the news I'm sure.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
99.9% are "good guys", you're always going to have a wild one in the bunch...on the other hand, the enemy is 99.9% evil as you've evidently been watching on the news I'm sure.
So we agree that what he did was wrong then?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Um ... define "evil" Ripsnort.
Beheading hostages.
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Originally posted by Maniac
So we agree that what he did was wrong then?
Yep. But look at the replies in this thread, comparing the U.S. Marines to the SS because of this incident...my God.. :(
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yep. But look at the replies in this thread, comparing the U.S. Marines to the SS because of this incident...my God.. :(
Havnt read every reply in this thread, but i certainly did not see any SS comparison...
The dude ****ed up, its ok to say it, even if you are a American.
Im sure he will get his punishment, even if he goes free from a court martial he will have nightmares about this for the rest of his life.
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That is indeed a bad comparison
one marine is not all marines too
Its just human behaviour under heavy circumstances
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Originally posted by Staga
Well what if we compare you to the SS troops (Not Waffen-SS but those others); also they didn't had much problems executing wounded prisoners but in those times it was a "no no" and when they got caught they were executed, if not immediately after capture then after martial court.
Have rules changed lately ?
here ya go Maniac
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How many of the US soldiers will come home disorted phygological messed up.
Its gonna cost some lifes back home
that's what's war doing.
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Originally posted by Staga
Animals yes; Just like those who are killing injured enemies. Both are no better than nazies.
Heres another one Maniac
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Originally posted by Maniac
Im sure he will get his punishment, even if he goes free from a court martial he will have nightmares about this for the rest of his life.
Agreed. What Raub said in the other thread made the most sense of all:
Raub:
Some of you people have no idea what it is like in these situations and should not be so quick to judge. Your opinions are more or less worthless. If you really think you'd be making well thought-out, rational decisions after many hours of combat in tight quarters you are seriously kidding yourselves. These guys are working on training and guts. I'm all for holding our troops to a standard, but **** happens in the heat of battle. Don't blame the guy who shot them, blame the unit that let these wounded guys sit there for day.
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That last one isn't SS Flit.
-SW
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
A Marine is about to be made into an example. This guy and his chain of command have just entered a ****storm of epic proportions.
Mercy killing... my ass. Grunts are not trained to make medical assessments like that. Grunts are trained to capture POWs and get them to medical personnel. Medical personnel can then determine if the prisoner can be saved or not. If mercy killing is appropriate, the medical people can do it in a way that is humane and doesn't end up on CNN.
Umm, 1st of all I'm not trained to take POWs, Im trained to make KIAs.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Agreed. What Raub said in the other thread made the most sense of all:
Nah, of course this sole marine is to blame. He pulled the trigger. He wanted to kill the iraqi no matter what...
I understand pressure and all, but that dont justify the killing.
In the West we have rules, and rules are there to be followed, no matter what pressure you have been under.
And for the Iraqi "faking being dead", WTH would you have done? being shot, and a gang of Iraqis enters the room, of course you would have tried to get out of the sitiuation by pretending being dead.
And on a side note... He might have been unconsious no?
This last two paragraph are not specifically pointed at you Rip.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If they are shooting at "real soldiers" then they are by definition not terrorists, but guerrillas or otherwise known as irregular forces. And they are protected by the GC ... everyone is. Even civilians taking up arms against an invading enemy.
If a civilian picks up a gun, knife or a FU(king rock. He is now a COMBATANT. So STFU you do not have a Fu(king clue.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
That last one isn't SS Flit.
-SW
close enuogh for me
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when a city village stand up for resistance they are not noncombatants.
(think leningrad/stalingrad)
i learned that in the army
oh u can assume someone is death when its head is at least a .5 metre away from the body ;) the army learned me that too.
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Originally posted by GScholz
You seem to think your enemy in Iraq is a single entity, and not an amalgam of different forces. I don't think you seriously think all the 1200 fighters you've killed or captured behead hostages. If you do then you are as big a fool as those that think most US soldiers execute and rape their prisoners.
I know it is not a single entity, but its apparent most Shiite's in Fallujah (as well as the insurgents coming in from Syria, Jordan, Iran) celebrate things like this (http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/pictures033104.html)
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Originally posted by GScholz
I do have a clue, but it seems you don't. The man that was shot did not have a gun or a knife or even a rock. He was laying completely still on the floor barely breathing.
easy to determine After the fact
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easy to determine after the fact (bad reply try above)
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All this debate and sometimes vitriol spouting out of some keyboards just tells me one thing.
The Iraq situation is a huge mess that neither Blair nor Bush should ever have got involved in. Violence only breeds violence.
The 20th Century was violent enough, lets not make this one as bad.
The whole thing stinks and its turning people into biggoted idiots witness some of the posts in these forums!
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Originally posted by YTSSGTD
Umm, 1st of all I'm not trained to take POWs, Im trained to make KIAs.
Besides the guys on the ground know that some northeastern pointy-headed liberal-activist judge on some appelate court would just set them free by applying some tenent of the habeas corpus to a non-citizen and free that bastard.
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Originally posted by GScholz
People as ignorant as you should be put down for the greater good.
This quote here is very telling Vidkun. It certainly states your position very clearly. It is very close to the rational used for eliminating the untermenschen. (sp) You need to go away for a while and calm down, this was totally uncalled for.
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a soldier shooting a wounded enemy soldier (or terrorist, call him what ever you want) after a gun fight...
this happens all the time throu out history, and has been done by all nations taking part in warfare, anyone who say it aint so is either a firm liar or a very naive person.
the only difference is that this time it was cought on tape...
ofcourse im in NO way trying to justify what has happend. im just saying.. War is Hell, there is no such thing as a claen war.
make up with that fact.
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My point remains... if wounded or surrendering fighters are faking it and continueing agression then it is perfectlt acceptable to assume that all wounded fighters are a threat... if they move then they need to be shot ded. the call is up to the guy on the ground and is not our call.
I don't care if someone from another unit was there yesterday. I don't know what was done at that time nor would I care. There were no marines guarding those prisoners... the prisoners were unguarded and free to have been up to anything. No one knew if they were reaching for a prayer book or the fuse on a sachel charge.
the marine did the right thing. I hope that he does not have second thoughts about it the rest of his life.
But next time.... make the camera crew check on wounded or surrendering "freedom fighters".
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
My point remains... if wounded or surrendering fighters are faking it and continueing agression then it is perfectlt acceptable to assume that all wounded fighters are a threat... if they move then they need to be shot ded. the call is up to the guy on the ground and is not our call.
I don't care if someone from another unit was there yesterday. I don't know what was done at that time nor would I care. There were no marines guarding those prisoners... the prisoners were unguarded and free to have been up to anything. No one knew if they were reaching for a prayer book or the fuse on a sachel charge.
the marine did the right thing. I hope that he does not have second thoughts about it the rest of his life.
lazs
agreed
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Originally posted by GScholz
People as ignorant as you should be put down for the greater good.
True as usual to my nickname for him, nazi boy.
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Originally posted by GScholz
No I don't think so. Not if the US keeps filling its armed forces with murderous morons like YTSSGTD here.
Hay oscarhole yes he did have a gun the news even said he did you Fu(K.
I can tell that you have never been in combat. you have no fu(king
clue. you are the type of guy that when the 1st round goes down rang you will pi$$ you paints, So STFU(http://www.r6-forum.com/nuke/modules/Forums/images/smiles/321.gif)
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Is it really neccessary to create a new account to be critical of someone who honestly deserves little more than a pathetic glance in the first place? I hope not.
If there is to be even a remote glimmer of this bsb having any value to anyone anywhere whatsoever then we need to keep our IDs up front and honest.
imo
correct me if I misunderstand
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And one more thing oscarhole you do not have the balls to say that to my face, B!t(h.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Is it really neccessary to create a new account to be critical of someone who honestly deserves little more than a pathetic glance in the first place? I hope not.
If there is to be even a remote glimmer of this bsb having any value to anyone anywhere whatsoever then we need to keep our IDs up front and honest.
imo
correct me if I misunderstand
what are you talking about?
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In
B4
Lock!
:D
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Originally posted by YTSSGTD
And one more thing oscarhole you do not have the balls to say that to my face, B!t(h.
You are a funnay intardnet tough guy.
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what are you talking about?
====
Forgive me. 6 posts just seemed a little short to be so taken aback by a regular flunky like gshmoltz.
Figured you were alt'ing with a new account to avoid recrimination with harsh intent in the body of your post.
In any event, Im in agreement with you.
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Originally posted by Furious
You are a funnay intardnet tough guy.
Ua, no that pice of work needs to stop runing his mouth. He has never been in combat, he has never had to kill.
I have been in combat, and It SUCKS. This guy has no clue, at what he is running his mouth about this is ovvious to any one that has been in combat.
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I just do not post, but I had to on this one.
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Originally posted by YTSSGTD
And one more thing oscarhole you do not have the balls to say that to my face, B!t(h.
MrBlack!! How ya been, buddy?:D
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Originally posted by GScholz
Yes it is easy to determine after the fact. It is also damned easy to determine by watching the video.
Comon GS.
Watching a video from your monitor in the safety of your house is a lot different than having to make a split second decision, with your life on the line.
so the question is, if you knew that wounded insurgents were boobie trapping themselves AND you are in a situation with a buddy screaming that something is wrong..... what would you do?
Personally, I would shoot first and ask questions later and I think that if this soldier is hung out to dry, we are screwing the rest of our troops big time.
This bullshiat, from armchair warriors, about needing to keep the prestine moral high ground at all costs is unrealistic. Why don't you put yourself in that position and take a good hard look at how much time YOU would take making sure that insurgent (terrorist) isn't gonna blow you and your buddies to hell.
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given the circumstances.... any of us with any brains at all would have done the same thing.... shot first. sclotz is simply on a mission to bash all things American.
he took our recent election really hard.
lazs
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Originally posted by mosgood
Comon GS.
Watching a video from your monitor in the safety of your house is a lot different than having to make a split second decision, with your life on the line.
so the question is, if you knew that wounded insurgents were boobie trapping themselves AND you are in a situation with a buddy screaming that something is wrong..... what would you do?
Personally, I would shoot first and ask questions later and I think that if this soldier is hung out to dry, we are screwing the rest of our troops big time.
This bullshiat, from armchair warriors, about needing to keep the prestine moral high ground at all costs is unrealistic. Why don't you put yourself in that position and take a good hard look at how much time YOU would take making sure that insurgent (terrorist) isn't gonna blow you and your buddies to hell.
I know what he will do, and that is piss is pants
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Originally posted by YTSSGTD
If a civilian picks up a gun, knife or a FU(king rock. He is now a COMBATANT. So STFU you do not have a Fu(king clue.
It would be nice if you could attempt to represent yourself as having more than 2 brain cells.. If your going to flame someone, at least have enough smarts about yourself to flame in context of the original post.. What you said here is true enough, but throws zero negative light on what GS posted. I certainly hope you were not attempting to disprove what he said because you didnt even come close. Actually, in your defense, I'll figure you had a brain spasm or the like and lost all cognitive ability..
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How did the Marines enter the room?
Did they just simply 'enter' the room or did they enter the room as a fireteam expecting a threat?
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I can tell that you have never been in combat, because then you would know that in combat you have about 1/4 of a second to racked to what is going on.
And no warrier will bash him for doing what any of us would have done.
And it is not that ezz to know that you just killed some one.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Actually he is Finnish. I'm the Norwegian guy.
There's a difference? :D
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Originally posted by GScholz
I know. Still what he did was wrong, no matter how understandable his actions were.
It was not wrong. And how can you say that ? It is a war.
And the News sad he had a gun next to him. Yes the guy was shot, yes he was alive. He he was playing like he was dead.
Now if the day befor the same thing happend and you bud was killed. And this oscarhole moves with a AK next to him, that is on him.
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Marines are ANIMALS!
(http://img51.exs.cx/img51/7773/ins_treating.jpg)
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HI! :rofl
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Welcome back GScholz!
:D
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That may get you banned nazi boy, hope not, you're usually good for a chuckle.
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Originally posted by YTSSGTD
And one more thing oscarhole you do not have the balls to say that to my face, B!t(h.
is this guy for real?! :rolleyes:
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For AKIron:
Why ? Does truth taste so bad in your mouth you're not able to take it?
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OK lemme get this straight... The Marines believed the guy was faking death... so:
A) Either the guy was dead and the bullet to the head made no difference
B) Or the guy was faking in which case he had alternative motives to surrendering and as such was still a combatant and thus a legitimate target.
Seems pretty simple to me. If its A) all the marine has done is disrespected a corpse, not a big issue, and if its B) all the marine has done is kill a an enemy combatant, which is what war is all about.
Case closed.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Marines are ANIMALS!
(http://img51.exs.cx/img51/7773/ins_treating.jpg)
These are the pics I'd like to see more; pics where US soldiers can be seen helping the people (even if they were who made the wounds); That's good for PR.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OK lemme get this straight... The Marines believed the guy was faking death... so:
A) Either the guy was dead and the bullet to the head made no difference
B) Or the guy was faking in which case he had alternative motives to surrendering and as such was still a combatant and thus a legitimate target.
Seems pretty simple to me. If its A) all the marine has done is disrespected a corpse, not a big issue, and if its B) all the marine has done is kill a an enemy combatant, which is what war is all about.
Case closed.
Or the guy was unconscious from the wounds and thus what the marine did was an execution. Remember they were already captured earlier and it looks like they weren't having any kind of weapons. Sounds like really bad news for the kid and rightly so.
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Originally posted by Staga
For AKIron:
Why ? Does truth taste so bad in your mouth you're not able to take it?
Staga, do you think I am an employee of HTC? Don't know what gave you that idea but I don't have the ability to ban anyone. Just making an observation based on what's been tolerated and what's been found unacceptable here on this board. Nazi boy seems to have stepped over that line with his graphic post and I was just warning him. Like I said, he's been amusing at times, would hate to see him banned.
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What the marine did was murder if the video is unedited.
I'm sure his mental state will come into play as a defense (as it should), but the act was no doubt a murder. If he is not a sociopath (like Timothy McVeigh), I think it might haunt him his entire life. If he is a sociopath (like Timothy McVeigh) I hope they find out before they turn him loose in America.
I hope people note, that there were many people there with guns and only one played God. The marines train soldiers, not murderers. The barbaric acts of a few shouldn't be used to smear all the good soldiers risking their lives over there for us.
Those in the forum who would defend murder, well all I can say is you indignation of terrorism is only tactical. You are of the same mindset.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Staga, do you think I am an employee of HTC? Don't know what gave you that idea but I don't have the ability to ban anyone. Just making an observation based on what's been tolerated and what's been found unacceptable here on this board. Nazi boy seems to have stepped over that line with his graphic post and I was just warning him. Like I said, he's been amusing at times, would hate to see him banned.
Ah so now GScholtz is a "Nazi boy"? And you're concerned about what's tolerated in this board?
Kinda funny isn't it?
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Originally posted by Staga
Ah so now GScholtz is a "Nazi boy"? And you're concerned about what's tolerated in this board?
Kinda funny isn't it?
Worried? Nah, I may be stepping over the line too but I don't think it's what HTC is so much concerned about. There have been repeated warnings about posting nudity or grisly pics. Of course nazi boy was talking about killing ignorant people to aid humanity and if that isn't a nazi precept then I don't know what is.
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What we have here is the Barnes/Elias phenomena.
(http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/169776.1020.A.jpg)
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I wish this topic could've had a poll enabled - the choices would go like this.
Do you ( ) Waste the mother****er
Do you ( ) Take the chance that he's alive and have an IED charger in his ass.
Your choice.
Wolf
Me personally, i'd shoot the mother****er - twice. But then again I am more Marine then most.
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Well I know what the corpsman who treated his wounds two days before he was killed chose.
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Suave that is true, but now I am hearing that the building was reoccupied by the bad guys before the incident happened. The thinking is that these guys could have been re-armed or boobytrapped at that point.
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How many didn't shoot? Were they trained badly?
Who is saying the marine was acting as trained?
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
How many didn't shoot? Were they trained badly?
Who is saying the marine was acting as trained?
The marine who noticed him moving shot. That's his job.
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``They had finished mopping up in Fallujah and they went back to double-check on some insurgents. From what we gathered, somebody playing possum jumped up and shot him,'' said his father, Joel Ailes, who learned of his death Monday evening. ``It's extremely hard.''
MercuryNews (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/10202599.htm)
That's what can happen if you don't. That would make anyone overly cautious.
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>>The marine who noticed him moving shot. That's his job.<<
No , thats *not *what happened. The marine who noticed him moving anouced it, and went through a 15 second monologue. If the guy was a threat, was he giving him warning to detonate something?? I doubt it. He was deciding to kill the guy.
And then he played God, because he could He didn't notice the guy moving and shot on instinct, he didn't defend his party (why annouce it???). He decided to kill the guy while others didn't.
But I'm sure you thugish people have no qualms about murder. I do. But don't take that as fear of you thugs in here who would defend murder.
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No , thats *not *what happened. The marine who noticed him moving anouced it, and went through a 15 second monologue.
No he shouted it twice and shot. No pause, no delay.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>The marine who noticed him moving shot. That's his job.<<
No , thats *not *what happened. The marine who noticed him moving anouced it, and went through a 15 second monologue.
And then killed the guy. He didn't notice the guy moving and shot on instinct. He decided to kill the guy while others didn't.
But I'm sure you thugish people have no qualms about murder. I do. But don't take that as fear of you thugs in here who would defend murder.
It wasn't a 15 second dialogue. He noticed, he announced, he acted.
Had the person in the link I posted noticed and acted, he'd be alive today.
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As I stated, the thuggish mentality that is common in here, wont be in the trial. Under duress of course, but murder. You all are not under duress and your support of murder speaks volumes.
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First. Thank God the Naysayers have no relevance in what will be the final determination as to if he was justified or not.
Interesting to see how they automatically place themselves on such a high and mighty pedestal that they feel qualified they can pass condemnation and label this marine a "war criminal" on this matter when ALL the facts aren't in except what has been reported to date by the media
Even more interesting is how you never see these same people condemning the many actions of the insurgents for which there is overwhelming evidence and even admission by way of proclamation by the insurgents themselves of their actions.
Yet when its even remotely suggested that someone on our side allegedly did something wrong. These same exact people are the very first to jump in with their condemnation and claims of war crimes without having all the facts.
Pretty pathetic.
That being said. If after ALL the facts are in it is found the Marine did something wrong he will be punished accordingly.
Which is just a tad bit more then what the insurgents/comatants do when their people conduct war crimes.
In reflection of all this it is quite obvious to me that the if these naysayers had their heads any farther up their prettythanges they'd be able to perform their own tonsillectomy from the inside out
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You all are not under duress and your support of murder speaks volumes.
No Tweety. Some of us understand the realities of the situation and recognize the correct action. Also we recognize those who would jump to conclusions and fry the poor guy without a fair shake.
Until all the facts come out we are just speculating. Contrary to what many have posted on this board, it looks like the guy took the correct action.
I wonder how many would have condemned the US if the Headlines read:
"BBC Reporter Killed in Falluja by explosion"
Crumpp
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Don't cloud the issue - NO ONE has defended the insurgents.
Thats an outright lie. Deciding to murder someone is a thug thing to do. Its playing God. Its unjustifialble. Was the marine in his right mind? I hope not. If he was, he is a sociopath and would do it again, in war time or not. Was the guy acting as a marine ?HELL NO. He broke.
And thats if everything is like the video depicts. You're right - due process. I speaking as if the video depicts events as they actually were. Sometimes thats not the case, I know, and that will come out in the investigation.
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>>No Tweety. Some of us understand the realities of the situation and recognize the correct action. Also we recognize those who would jump to conclusions and fry the poor guy without a fair shake.
<<
Well isn't THAT a contradiction. You talk about jumping to conclusions but are defending what appears to be a murder. It might not be, but its going to take a lot of extenuating circumstances to not be a murder. Who is jumping to conclusions?
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Don't cloud the issue - NO ONE has defended the insurgents.
Dont see much in the way of outrage or condemnation of them either.
Certainly not to the extent this marine has
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This isn't about the insurgents beheading someone. God knows - everyone on this board has expressed disires to have those tortured till they die from pain. Murder is friggin murder no matter what uniform you're wearing or not wearing. I don't for a second believe the marine was acting in his right mind. He shouldn't have even been there. More people than him made a mistake in having him there. But the act appears to be a murder. It has to be accounted for if we are an army and not a band of thugs. I am not for a second claiming the marine is responsible for his actions and, God, I hope he isn't. But it just plain WRONG to defend the act.
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You talk about jumping to conclusions but are defending what appears to be a murder.
It's not Murder if the terrorist were faking dead and killing soldiers Tweety. It's self defense and he would have been within the ROE.
Now that is provided the insurgent moved. If he even flinched or moved a hair it is a justified shooting acording the Staff Judge Advocate who is investigating the incident.
When you decide to use your wounded as a ruse to attack then don't be surprised when all procautions are taken. What is sad is that you, Tweety, are proving just how effective this approach is for the terrorist. The US is damned if they do help the terrorist by loosing soldiers to terrorist commiting war crimes or damned if they don't by world opinion.
If the US fries this guy for erroring on the side of caution then the terrorist will win as well because US casualties will rise as the soldiers become afraid to shoot.
Where is the outrage and indignity over the Terrorist violating non-combatant status? It's not there, why?
Difference is the we will police are own. If he did violate the ROE then he will be punished.
Tweety why don't you raise your right hand, take the oath, and put yourself in a position to make a difference instead of yipping at the sidelines from a position of safety at those in the arena.
Crumpp
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>>When you decide to use your wounded as a ruse to attack then don't be surprised when all procautions are taken. What is sad is that you, Tweety, are proving just how effective this approach is for the terrorist. The US is damned if they do help the terrorist by loosing soldiers to terrorist commiting war crimes or damned if they don't by world opinion.
<<
If the marine thought it was a ruse, he has a very strange way of showing it - announcing it. The worse thing to do when you are about to defend yourself is tell your attacker you're about to shoot. Actually its a ridiculous thing to do.
I think its much more likely that he was not right from being shot in the face a day before. I think he was pissed (and justifiably so).
I think he acted out of passion and not training.
99% of the population might have scewed up in his circumstance. But that doesn't relieve the US of the responsibility of accounting for it. It appears to be a screwup.
With so many fanatics defending murder for the "right" cause - are we going to start doing it too?
-
If the marine thought it was a ruse, he has a very strange way of showing it - announcing it.
And you would use what? Telepathy to warn the other occupants of the room?
The worse thing to do when you are about to defend yourself is tell your attacker you're about to shoot. Actually its a ridiculous thing to do.
BS. Ask any cop about verbilization. As a soldier I definately verbalize especially in the house where things can get confusing fast. Again, he warned his buddies and the insurgent that knew the guy was faking. Only a problem for armchair quarterbacks.
99% of the population might have scewed up in his circumstance. But that doesn't relieve the US of the responsibility of accounting for it.
Funny, I don't see the US relieving itself of responsibility. We are investigating the incident and will take appropriate action. We will not take action based on world opinion.
With so many fanatics defending murder for the "right" cause - are we going to start doing it too?
I don't see anybody defending murder. I do see folks defending due process.
Crumpp
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No I wouldn't warn the room, I'd remove the threat if I thought it was a threat that could be quickly removed.
And snipers dont warn anyone before they take them out if they have a deathgrip on someone. They remove the threat. They act in a trained manner.
If you don't see something broke in that video tape, you are choosing not to see. That was not training. That was something else.
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And snipers dont warn anyone before they take them out if they have a deathgrip on someone.
Umm, He was not a Sniper. Technically speaking he was an assaulter. Totally different ballgame and mindset.
No I wouldn't warn the room, I'd remove the threat if I thought it was a threat that could be quickly removed.
From your Sniper Hide across the room?
Crumpp
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
No I wouldn't warn the room, I'd remove the threat if I thought it was a threat that could be quickly removed.
And snipers dont warn anyone before they take them out if they have a deathgrip on someone. They remove the threat. They act in a trained manner.
Well, hopefully the marine will someday achieve your level of greatness.
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BTW, I am defending due proccess. I don't for a second think the marine was acting in his right mind. The video shows an *apparent* murder, and have state in another post, video lies sometimes. Even if the video didn't lie, I am not for a second saying the marine is a calculating killer. All I'm stating is barring any great extenuating circumstances, the act appears to be a murder.
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>>Well, hopefully the marine will someday achieve your level of greatness.<<
ok, I see, discussion off, insults on.
Here's mine. You are a thug and of the same midset as terrorists if you defend murder. And if you do it, I hope you rot in hell.
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His ghillie suit looks just like a toaster oven.
Complete with a warm pop tart stickin out the top.....
Here's mine. You are a thug and of the same midset as terrorists if you defend murder. And if you do it, I hope you rot in hell.
I think that is a just a little too left of reality for anyone to be offended. Try something relevant to the discussion. Dig into that cold snipers heart and find something else.
Crumpp
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Oh man, just when you think it can't look any worse for the US forces in Iraq this is on MSN International- (I'd link but I don't know, or care, how)
"Marines detained 47 men in Fallujah on Wednesday after residents were invited via loudspeakers to a mosque with the promise of food. Males ages 15 to 55 were tested for traces of gunpowder, which led to the detentions."
What kind of dirty trick is THAT- promising Iraquis food, then testing their hands for gunpowder residue? That has GOT to be a clear violation of the Geneva Convention, to actually lie to people like that.
Where is Due Process? Where is Humanity? And, most important of all, where in the HELL are the sandwiches?
-
What kind of dirty trick is THAT- promising Iraquis food, then testing their hands for gunpowder residue?
Those cold uncaring bastards! Imagine not feeding a terrorist.
Crumpp
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Tweety bird, you say "apparrent murder" and then you say murder in a matter of fact way in the very next post.
We have a video that shows a marine shooting a wounded man. Wounded men are still dangerous, especially those who may be zealots, who may be triggering an explosive.
I give the marine the benifit of the doubt until otherwise convinced, and in that video, the only certainty is doubt as to the mindset of both the marine and the wounded man.
A very slight unauthorised move could have signaled danger to the marine.
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>>BS. Ask any cop about verbilization.<<
I know the marine wasn't a sniper. But you are defending the act as if he felt the insurgent had a death grip on the room (a hidden gun, bomb etc.). No cop would verbalize that, he'd remove it, or verbalize while removing it.
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Originally posted by NUKE
It's also not legal for a combatant to fake like they are dead IIRC.
Maybe he was taking a nap?
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>>Tweety bird, you say "apparrent murder" and then you say murder in a matter of fact way in the very next post.
<<
I'm saying apparent murder because video DOES lie. Its two dimensional and some things not even considered are not shown on the video. A video is just one (or a few) snapshot in time and sometimes it poorly represents the whole story. If I missed prefacing "murder" with *apparent* sometimes, its not a plot. I just forgot. I think I've stated in a few post "if events are as the video depicts" or something to that effect.
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It's just that 'apparent murder' means something different from 'shooting' or 'killing'.
I do not have the evidence before me to move from a label of 'killing' to 'apparent murder'.
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I say apparent murder because of the audio. As I remember, the guy didn't sound panicked, and went through at least 3 lines of indicating he didn't think the guy was dead. He said nothing about fearing a bomb or gun. He did say he saw the guy breathing. It seemed like 15 seconds to me, but others say it was rapid. If everything was as it appears on video, that would be a murder and not a "shooting" or [justifiable]"killing."
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I heared some stress in his voice.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Oh man, just when you think it can't look any worse for the US forces in Iraq this is on MSN International- (I'd link but I don't know, or care, how)
"Marines detained 47 men in Fallujah on Wednesday after residents were invited via loudspeakers to a mosque with the promise of food. Males ages 15 to 55 were tested for traces of gunpowder, which led to the detentions."
What kind of dirty trick is THAT- promising Iraquis food, then testing their hands for gunpowder residue? That has GOT to be a clear violation of the Geneva Convention, to actually lie to people like that.
Where is Due Process? Where is Humanity? And, most important of all, where in the HELL are the sandwiches?
Residents?
Pretty safe bet at this point that the very vast majority of "residents" left in the town were of the enemy variety.
Doncha just love the way the media words things sometimes?
At first glance and if you didnt know better one would think they just rolled into town, set out a spread and annouced there was a free feast going on for anyone that was interested.
But I bet they probably made good on their offer of food. Gunpowder residue or not
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Next time throw a nade in the room first.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I heared some stress in his voice.
Hard to judge stress merely from the sound of a person voice as everyone reacts to it differently.
And after several days of fighting while he probably was wound up like a spring inside he probably wasnt as prone to show it verbaly
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Next time throw a nade in the room first.
I like my idea better.
Insist the embedded reporter check it out first.
Might be interesting to see what he would have thought they should do
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Just a question - if we hate reporters so much, just what is it we are defending in Iraq?
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Faking death is a violation of the GC.
Using a house of worship to store weapons or conduct combat operations is a violation of the GC.
Fake surrenders are a violation of the GC.
All of the above were commonplace in Falluja.
Other wounded insurgents were not shot, because they were not trying to conceal the fact that they were alive.
Weapons WERE recovered in the room (video shows AK-47s being carried out by Marines).
Did the Marine over-react? Maybe. But, what he did must be viewed in context of the environment. What he did may not have been PC, but under the rules of war, it wasn't illegal either.
This Marine will not be charged and will be back in his unit within days.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
At first glance and if you didnt know better one would think they just rolled into town, set out a spread and annouced there was a free feast going on for anyone that was interested.
But I bet they probably made good on their offer of food. Gunpowder residue or not
Oh man... I just read the Marines served ham sandwiches to the 47 starving Iraqi citizens.... This is just... inhumane. As an American I am overcome with shame at the insensitivity of these Marines to pull this cruel, hellish stunt... Really... How in the HELL can one eat a ham sandwich without Gray Poupon?
:confused:
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>>This Marine will not be charged and will be back in his unit within days.
<<
You may be right, but I'd bet my house you're wrong. I think he will be charged. And I'll add, I don't think its all his fault. I don't think he should've been there.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Oh man... I just read the Marines served ham sandwiches to the 47 starving Iraqi citizens.... This is just... inhumane. As an American I am overcome with shame at the insensitivity of these Marines to pull this cruel, hellish stunt... Really... How in the HELL can one eat a ham sandwich without Gray Poupon?
:confused:
Oh dear god - just wait till the *****ing starts about pork and damnation of the ham sandwich possie.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The military tribunal will decide. Somehow I've got the feeling that they will prove the murderous fascists prettythangholes in this thread wrong.
Posters in this very thread are murderers? :eek:
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I just believe after seeing the video that there is room for debate on whether the Marine was justified in a belief that a threat existed.
If it is reasonable to believe that a threat existed then perhaps the Marine acted appropriately.
Most acts of war appear inappropriate when witnessed from the safety of one's living room.
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Most acts of war appear inappropriate when witnessed from the safety of one's living room.
That is worthy of a sig file!
Crumpp
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If you shoot prisoners that have their hands up or in plain view and make no sudeden moves then it is probly bad judgement or worse... especialy if you have been guarding them for a while or have been observing them for a while.
if you burst into a room and see a maybe wounded guy moving and can't see what his hands are doing then you are stupid and negligent if you don't shoot. This is not an episode of "cops".
this is not nazis shoving people in ovens or shooting bound prisoners.
shlots is just mad because we defeated hitler and proved thnat the 109 was worthless because it had no range.
lazs
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well done pinhead....just goes to show that indeed we are a world apart.
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Originally posted by Pongo
oh oh..rude is posting his true feelings again. we know where that got us last time.
pre war whining by rude (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79158&perpage=50&highlight=iraq&pagenumber=1)
well rude. You pulled up in front of Bagdad and they gave you the country. How many dead are there now anyway?
That answer is simple....more dead than there should have been. If the UN would have helped us, then this thing would be much closer to being over.
Of course, why should the UN participate in something they feel is wrong when so much much right was accomplished by oil for food?
I don't like this war anymore than anyone else does....what I despise even more are two faced politicians pretending to be allies with the US when it serves them best....then the poop hits the fan on 9/11 and we have to listen to the UN and it's history of failures around the world, dictate to us what we should and should not do.
While you might feel it's ok to talk a good game, I'm from the school of talk is cheap....there comes a time when talking brings a deminished return and a different approach is necessary.
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Originally posted by Rude
That answer is simple....more dead than there should have been. If the UN would have helped us, then this thing would be much closer to being over.
Of course, why should the UN participate in something they feel is wrong when so much much right was accomplished by oil for food?
I don't like this war anymore than anyone else does....what I despise even more are two faced politicians pretending to be allies with the US when it serves them best....then the poop hits the fan on 9/11 and we have to listen to the UN and it's history of failures around the world, dictate to us what we should and should not do.
While you might feel it's ok to talk a good game, I'm from the school of talk is cheap....there comes a time when talking brings a deminished return and a different approach is necessary.
Good on ya Man.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Naw, I'm quite grateful the German Nazis were defeated. I'm just worried how much it will cost us to stop the American Nazis. That's all ...
Ignorence is Blessed, is'nt it
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Originally posted by Widewing
Faking death is a violation of the GC.
Using a house of worship to store weapons or conduct combat operations is a violation of the GC.
Fake surrenders are a violation of the GC.
All of the above were commonplace in Falluja.
Other wounded insurgents were not shot, because they were not trying to conceal the fact that they were alive.
Weapons WERE recovered in the room (video shows AK-47s being carried out by Marines).
Did the Marine over-react? Maybe. But, what he did must be viewed in context of the environment. What he did may not have been PC, but under the rules of war, it wasn't illegal either.
This Marine will not be charged and will be back in his unit within days.
My regards,
Widewing
Whoa!!! Hold on one minute!!!
You speak of violations of the GC??? Don't you know that only US violations or imagined ones are relevant???
The boys of the UN on this board only care about telling us how bad we all are....the fact that others repeatedly violate the GC daily and kill our troops by doing so doesn't bother them in the least and doesn't deserve a mention.
They have a US Marine to crucify....stop rainin on their parade with the truth.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Naw, I'm quite grateful the German Nazis were defeated. I'm just worried how much it will cost us to stop the American Nazis. That's all ...
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/carusoshreck.gif)
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My uncle was a Marine,and he sent this to me last night via e-mail.
" We have so damn many people who believe that life in a combat zone is like an old B movie,i. e., where only the bad guys shoot first, but they always miss so the good guys can shoot the gun out of their hands.. According to these folks, our guys should assume everyone they come upon is an innocent civilian until after that person opens fire. In the real world of harms way, doing that gets you and your buddies killed.
We were taught to: 1] never leave a live enemy in our rear, 2] anything worth shooting once is worth at least one more bullet, 3] when passing "dead" enemy, make certain they really are dead before they are behind you, 4] when headquarters wanted prisoners, patrols would be sent out to get them, otherwise we were to complete our mission, and 5]we learned from veterans not to assume anyone was a civilian, innocent or not, in a battle zone.
I have seen the video. The Marine could not see the guys hands. My only questions are what has happened to the practice of tossing in a grenade before entering an enclosure, and why were not more Marines shooting?"
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Originally posted by GScholz
Naw, I'm quite grateful the German Nazis were defeated. I'm just worried how much it will cost us to stop the American Nazis. That's all ...
American Nazi's....c'mon G.
All of this talk on this board is silly....this world if full of evil and darkness of which some of us have tasted more than others. The reality of it all is that no man or country or collection of countries will ever stifle evil on this earth.
My true hope is that only God's will be done regarding all of this and yes G, even in your little life.
This American Nazi hopes you someday find God's peace....until then, try smilin. In the meantime, you will just have to read my remarks and understand that depending on what kind of day I'm having, my intention is to never throw the first stone....I have my own issues as well.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/carusoshreck.gif)
who is that Rip?
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David Caruso, discussing Scottish Martial arts.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
No I wouldn't warn the room, I'd remove the threat if I thought it was a threat that could be quickly removed.
And snipers dont warn anyone before they take them out if they have a deathgrip on someone. They remove the threat. They act in a trained manner.
If you don't see something broke in that video tape, you are choosing not to see. That was not training. That was something else.
Ok, this post explains most of your problem:
Youre 17.
How do I know this?
You seem to be infatuated with snipers. As we all know, snipers are just plain cool, but the peak of their coolness exists within the male brain between the ages of 15 and 21. During this time, snipers are only rivaled in coolness by pirates, ninjas and softcore porn involving the Olsen twins.
Also worth a look is your mention of the sniper "death grip" as some sort of trained move, which is probably a talent more suited to a GI Joe action figure than a Marnie with a scope and a recon badge. Although I do agree... its a good thing you can recognize on sight that this Marine sn1per (who was just lending a helping hand and pulling a CQB shift) was indeed trained in the "sniper deathgrip" because without it he might have been SOL in that situation.
Now go clean up your room.
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I wish I was a pirate.
-SW
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Would that be the coolest, or what?
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It would! I'd be able to wear a cool hat, not shower, steal all the booty I want, be drunk all day, screw cheaply priced hookers and all the while stab people for no particular reason. SOB would be my monkey.
Awesome.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It would! I'd be able to wear a cool hat, not shower, steal all the booty I want, be drunk all day, screw cheaply priced hookers and all the while stab people for no particular reason. SOB would be my monkey.
Awesome.
-SW
You should probably get a monkey that could actually climb a rope or something...:eek:
I could be your parrot, I'd sit on your shoulder and say "Braaaaack! Cut -n - paste, Braaack!"
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All this, of course, begs the question... what would you name your boat?
Im partial to "Deathgrip," personally.
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SOB will climb anything when there's chicken wings involved.
I kind of like Ninja Deathgrip for the name of the boat. Yell "QUAH" just before stabbing people.
-SW
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I think "Fence sitter" is much more appropriate.:cool:
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Anyone for a parrot drumstick?
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Anyone for a parrot drumstick?
-SW
:D "Braaaaack!"
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:lol
Hijack... SUCCESSFUL!
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Ok, this post explains most of your problem:
Youre 17.
How do I know this?
You seem to be infatuated with snipers. As we all know, snipers are just plain cool, but the peak of their coolness exists within the male brain between the ages of 15 and 21. During this time, snipers are only rivaled in coolness by pirates, ninjas and softcore porn involving the Olsen twins.
Also worth a look is your mention of the sniper "death grip" as some sort of trained move, which is probably a talent more suited to a GI Joe action figure than a Marnie with a scope and a recon badge. Although I do agree... its a good thing you can recognize on sight that this Marine sn1per (who was just lending a helping hand and pulling a CQB shift) was indeed trained in the "sniper deathgrip" because without it he might have been SOL in that situation.
Now go clean up your room.
HAHAHAHA!!!! I said the same thing yesterday. To this oscarhole, he has no clue.
(http://www.r6-forum.com/nuke/modules/Forums/images/smiles/LolLolLolLol.gif)
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sclot5z... you better hope we never become nazis cause there wouldn't be a damn thing you could do about it except maybe go back to butt smooch mode.
lazs
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I hope we become pirates, be a lot more fun and we get to hunt for booty.
-SW
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we get to hunt booty.
I hunted a lot of booty before I got married.
:(
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I hunted a lot of booty before I got married.
:(
Crumpp
Yep, that $uck POOP, me to!
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Laz,
Vidkun schultz there would have plenty of ideas how to deal with nazi's. It's in his history to deal with nazis' He wouldn't get rid of them, just deal.
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but ya get to fly them neato 109's!
lazs
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109s are ghey, they look like vibrators with wings. Pirate ships and monkeys is where it's at. Plus booty!
-SW
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So what you are saying is that you don't like the ghey booty in the 109's????
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I don't like the ghey 109 because it attracts ghey booty.
-SW
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109's are ugly and annoying and the people who like them have really bad body odor.
lazs
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Damn... I love 109's. :(
I think most of that comes from AW though... where I was of the mindset that I couldnt be caught dead flying around the VOD in a Dweebfire in the RR arena. ;)
Az were definately the pirates.
Bz were the snipers (with deathgrip)
Cz were the Olsen twins.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Damn... I love 109's. :(
I think most of that comes from AW though... where I was of the mindset that I couldnt be caught dead flying around the VOD in a Dweebfire in the RR arena. ;)
Az were definately the pirates.
Bz were the snipers (with deathgrip)
Cz were the Olsen twins.
My first balsa model (where you had to CUT your own stringers, frames and chords from the balsa wood with a pattern) was a 109 when I was 11. Then I grew up and learned to love the F4U. :D
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I actually read each and every post in this thread. What I see is the same things happening in this thread as what happened in the thread about the missing explosives. People jumping to conclusions before an investigation has time to run its course. (Blah blah blah Free Shrek2 DVD blah blah blah)
Like I always do, I am gonna wait until the investigation is over. The Marine Corps will deal with this young man in an appropriate way whatever the outcome.
GS.....where is your outrage for all the violations of the GC by the insurgents? Where is your outrage for the innocent civilians that were murdered in Falujah by the insurgents? Why all the outrage over a video tape that most likely doesnt tell the entire story?
GS in America everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I am a firm believer in that policy. When that Marine is proven guilty by a Court Martial, only then by American law and American Military law is he guilty.
What will you do GS if the Marines investigating this incident decide the shooting was justified? Will you just disappear from this thread with no comment like you do in all other threads that dont pan out for you? Or will you apologize for insults thrown?
Just before I graduated from high school my dad told me.....It takes a man to say, I was wrong and I'm sorry. Are you a man GS?
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GSholz says.....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The military tribunal will decide. Somehow I've got the feeling that they will prove the murderous fascists prettythangholes in this thread wrong.
Naw, I'm quite grateful the German Nazis were defeated. I'm just worried how much it will cost us to stop the American Nazis. That's all ...
No but they are evidently murderous.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man you got issues with the U.S. :(
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Damn it, we're talking about being pirates here. Stop changing the subject!
-SW
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Originally posted by GScholz
Naw, I'm quite grateful the German Nazis were defeated. I'm just worried how much it will cost us to stop the American Nazis. That's all ...
Sionce it obviously costs nothing to stop people on this board, who are all powerless, you must be tossing that accusation to, other, more significant "American Nazis" that migh need stopping.
Who would that be?
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...Skuzzy? :(
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Originally posted by Elfie
GS in America everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
That's Bull**** and you know it. Guantamo is full of men who has been imprisoned for over two years without a chance to be heard in the court. That much about your "everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court".
It takes a man to say, I was wrong and I'm sorry. Are you a man GS?
Are you?
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And hundreds have been released from Gitmo too, proving that there is a system to judge the detainees guilt or innocence...
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Originally posted by Staga
That's Bull**** and you know it. Guantamo is full of men who has been imprisoned for over two years without a chance to be heard in the court. That much about your "everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court".
Pray tell... what is wrong with what we are doing in G-mo?
(aside from the fact that there arent any Pirates there)
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Originally posted by Airhead
Oh man... I just read the Marines served ham sandwiches to the 47 starving Iraqi citizens.... This is just... inhumane. As an American I am overcome with shame at the insensitivity of these Marines to pull this cruel, hellish stunt... Really... How in the HELL can one eat a ham sandwich without Gray Poupon?
:confused:
Marlon Brando put it best
"the Horror..the horror"
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Grun Sir.....
Don't bother to even reply to that crap. It will not make a differance what ya say....he and others here will just look for another reason to bash the U.S.
Be great if sometime when a "U.S." Thread comes along that they need to start with the Nazi name calling stuff......noone replied.
In fact....Almost be nice if any thread started by a few of these haters NEVER got replied to and were locked automatically.
Couple in this thread OUGHT to be banned period. IMO
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Originally posted by Staga
That's Bull**** and you know it. Guantamo is full of men who has been imprisoned for over two years without a chance to be heard in the court. That much about your "everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court".
Are you?
What do I have to be sorry for Staga? Have I called people murderous nazis? Have I insulted anyone?
The issue with people being held in Guantanamo Bay will be decided in the courts. I am not a lawyer, nor do I know the legalities of holding foreign nationals in our jails.
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GS you are absolutely over the line.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hitler had a system to determine guilt or innocence too, and hundreds were released! Go America! Perhaps you should relocate them to the east? The final solution to terrorism!
Thats just ridiculous GS...
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It would appear, the enemy combatants dont quite meet the qualifications for POW status
According to the Geneva convention that is
seems they dont quite fulfill the conditions that need to be met to fall under militia status as well as at least one all important condidtion "Following the laws and customs of war"
"Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:
1. Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.
2. The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.
C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention. "
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Originally posted by GScholz
I know, which is why I find it amazing (well, not really) that there are Americans here that would support genocide.
Which posts? Can you point them out? I really havent been following this thread much after everyobe stated their positions for the 4th time...
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Some people need to go to a school that teaches the ability to ignore.
I call that, pirate school.
At pirate school, anyone that says anything to you gets stabbed in the eyeball. No more effeminate crying over what someone says. Just deal with it like a pirate, stab your problem(s) away.
After you learn this awesome technique, you move on to learning how to commandeer your own ship. This course is relatively easy and involves much of the aforementioned stabbing.
Now, for the monkeys - they are your best friend. They do everything, and they have opposable thumbs - so they are the perfect right hand man.
Any questions about how great it is to be a pirate?
-SW
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Originally posted by GScholz
I know, which is why I find it amazing (well, not really) that there are Americans here that would support genocide.
Like Who ?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hitler had a system to determine guilt or innocence too, and hundreds were released! Go America! Perhaps you should relocate them to the east? The final solution to terrorism!
Your Unreal:(
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hitler had a system to determine guilt or innocence too, and hundreds were released! Go America! Perhaps you should relocate them to the east? The final solution to terrorism!
This, is Bull ****
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I dont think I saw a single post in 9 pages where ANYONE supported genocide.
I fear GS has finally gone off the deep end :(
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Hmmmm
Well anyway, so far no link has been established between Sadam and terrorist organisations, or him and 9/11, so lets not try justifying anything on that basis hmmm.
As far as the UN goes, the US administration had decided they weren't seriously going to try and involve the UN anyway, got persuaded by other countries to give the UN a go, but, well, is it a big surprise that given their lack of enthusiasm the US case didn't get UN backing hmm?
But anyway, back to the issue at hand.
First...umm, formal hostilities ended way back, so 'war' is actually not the right term (Someone who is well informed put me right if I'm wrong!). But that aside, the debate on the 'status' of the 'terrorist' side in terms of GC is fairly laughable. The 'hostile' people that have been fighting in Iraq can not just be labled 'terrorists', there look to be many groups as well as I am sure people who are not organsied in any noticable way. External (non Iraqi) Jihad types, Iraqi jihad types, Iraqi's who are fighting what they see as an invading army, and on that count, if you consider it from thier (probably fairly uninformed point of view, or just a very strong nationalist/defend my country mindset), which I would think many on these boards would understand if the situation was put into context of an invasion (however right or wrong) of their own country, and probably Iraqi's who are not going to move out of their homes just cos someone, anyone tells them to, and are going to shoot the first person of any type that comes at them.
Both of the last two types would not be recognised by the current rules of war as genuine combatants, but from a moral stand are very much in the 'right' to defend their country/homes even against an 'imposed' government. How ca you tell these latter 'Home defenders' from Jihaders or terrorists....you can't. My point....don't just lump all hostiles into one easy to describe and hate group called 'terrorists'.
Despite all of the above, in a combat zone where there has been a known pattern of the enemy using 'dirty tricks' (and when it comes to streetfighting you've got to ba a little dipsy in the head to not use any tactic that works), shooting first and asking questions a looong way second is only common sense. It may not be nice, or sporting, or moral, or following strict ROE, or the normal rules of war, but self preservation overides, thankfully all of the above. The marine's true crime....being filmed doing it. That modern wars arenot so tightly bound with the media is a whole other debate, and not a pretty one.
Anyway, there is my two pence worth for now, oh, and please stop the 'tards thing, it just shows that the person using has no respect for others, and if you really have no respect for others, well, lets not go there shall we!
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Well anyway, so far no link has been established between Sadam and terrorist organisations, or him and 9/11, so lets not try justifying anything on that basis hmmm.
That's not true. There were at least 2 terrorist training camps in Iraq. One was in the northern part iirc (if Iam mistaken I am 100% sure *someone*will step in heh), and the second one was just outside Baghdad.
Also it's well documented that SH paid the families of suicide bombers 25,000 dollars. Baghdad Bob bragged about it on Iraqi televsion. It's also being documented on how SH gave shelter and medical aid to terrorists.
As far as Al-Qeada goes, no, there arent any documented links.
Dunno about you, but those sure seem like links to terrorism to me :)
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Awesome, a new ameristalker shade account!
Heya Tali, I'm sure we will have fun, as always.. :rolleyes:
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1099100867_thread_direction.gif)
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Gschitz.... die.
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you guys must have really torqued old crusty gshmoltz off hehe
gshmoltz appears to have popped a systems critical O-Ring and is belching dark blue foul obnoxious gas as he wings over for the face plant lol
good work!
:rofl
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What do I have to be sorry for Staga? Have I called people murderous nazis? Have I insulted anyone?
Not gonna answer Staga?
GS.....where is your outrage for all the violations of the GC by the insurgents? Where is your outrage for the innocent civilians that were murdered in Falujah by the insurgents? Why all the outrage over a video tape that most likely doesnt tell the entire story?
What will you do GS if the Marines investigating this incident decide the shooting was justified? Will you just disappear from this thread with no comment like you do in all other threads that dont pan out for you? Or will you apologize for insults thrown?
What about you GS? You gonna answer any of that?
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Originally posted by Elfie
GS in America everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
You were wrong in this; proofs are imprisoned in Guantanamo.
Are you man enough to admit you were wrong and that everyone is NOT innocent until proven quilty?
I'm not saying all those people are innocent but US has been keeping them locked in for over two years without court hearings.
That's not how a civilized country acts; that's how "Banana Republics", Communists and Military Governments treat their prisoners.
"innocent until proven guilty" my ass.
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Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are war prisoners from Afghanistan. There are exceptions to this as stated in this article.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jan2003/guan-j03.shtml
I havent had time to read all of it. There is no guilt or innocence for prisoners of war. Those that were jailed wrongly need to be released asap.
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shlotz has finaly exposed his Amerihater self to even the dumbest kerrie voter on the board... see, liberals it doesn't matter what you do you will never get the love of this kind of euro.
He is simply angry because he has to speak Californian in order to have anything to say that means anything or... anyone who means anything listen to him.
we would learn to speak his language and go on his BB but... well... time better spent learning Spanish or even... canadian
lazs