Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: JB35 on November 18, 2004, 10:03:23 AM
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Found this and thought it would be a nice addition to the guns on the F-8
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2164
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I don't think they were used in combat. The SG113A 'Förstersonde' was installed in at least one Fw 190 F-8 (Werk Nr 582071) in October 1944, but probably no more prototypes were finished and it never went into production.
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From the info on the site it appears to have beem deployed in combat.....
One of the most interesting weapon of the FW190 was the SG 113A "Fostersonde". It was a couple of 77mm antitank-recoiless guns installed vertically in the wings of the plane. When it was passing above a column of enemy tanks , these weapons were activated by the electromagnetic field generated by a tank and began to shot downward, penetrating easily the little armor on the superior part of the tanks. This weapon was employed particularly on the eastern front.
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well if that ain't the darndest thing....i guess it can't be reloaded inflight?
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You guys need a copy of 'Flying Guns - World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45' :)
This is an extract:
"More unusual was a series of German weapons designed for upward (or, in one case, downward) firing and intended to be triggered by automatic sensors. These were known as the SG series (usually given as Sondergerät = special equipment, but other contemporary documents give Schiessgerät, or shooting equipment). They were late-war developments which were tested but did not enter service. The SG 117 consisted of seven MK 108 barrels, each loaded with a single 30x90RB round, which were clustered together for firing upwards at bombers. The total weight was 28 kg. The barrel block slid downwards out of the aircraft during firing, sequentially triggering the shots as it did so (at an effective rate of 10,000 rpm) and simultaneously absorbing the recoil. A more conventional recoilless approach was taken by the SG 116, which consisted of three 30 mm barrels (each weighing 30 kg) firing special combustible cardboard RCL cartridges (315 g at 860 m/s ), and the 50 mm SG 500 Jägerfaust (1 kg - containing 400 g of HE - at 400 m/s). In both cases, the recoil was balanced by firing a counterweight from the back of the gun, as originated in the Davis guns; in the Jägerfaust, the counterweight was the cartridge case which was also extended upwards to act as the barrel. The firing of all three types was by electro-optical sensors as they passed beneath the target aircraft. An even more ambitious project was the SG 113, which was intended for attacking tanks. It consisted of a 7.5 cm gun firing a 4.5 cm saboted projectile downwards at 650 m/s, once again balanced by a Davis-type counterweight. Total weight of one barrel was 48 kg. The gun was intended to be triggered by the electrical impulse caused by flying over a tank at low altitude, but this proved unreliable.
Even more unusual was the 2 cm Harfe (harp) which consisted of single-shot RCL barrels (using the gas jet principle) firing fin-stabilised 135 g shells at 320 m/s. The barrels weighed 2.3 kg each and were intended to be assembled fifteen or twenty at a time, pointing upwards for attacking bombers and arranged in a line to minimise aerodynamic drag (hence the name). This was as fruitless as all of the others."
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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About the only "big gun" WWII plane I can think of is the B25-H
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Try these: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Originally posted by Zanth
About the only "big gun" WWII plane I can think of is the B25-H
If I'm not completely mistaken, Hs-129's were equipped with the 75mm BK 7.5.
Anyways, back to the 190F-8, through some googling and reading "the Butcher Bird" it seems that no more than 3 prototypes with the SG113A were completed, so I doubt that the 77mm AT gun saw any action on Focke-Wulfs. Unless there were some field modifications...
edit: Sorry, Tony, read your article after posting... Thanks! :)
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Originally posted by Zanth
About the only "big gun" WWII plane I can think of is the B25-H
Did not the Piaggio P108 have big cannon? 102mm iirc.
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Most of the 190 pilots I have interviewed say that they used this weapon daily.
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Originally posted by Zanth
About the only "big gun" WWII plane I can think of is the B25-H
I have a print of Me-410s with a 50mm AT gun in a gondola
under the belly. Also the infamous Mosquito Tse-Tse model
mounted a 57mm gun.
Then there was that 262 "rhino" variant, but that was just
silly :)
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There was also the IJA twin engine scout plane that got an odd caliber (47mm? Not sure) big cannon for bomber interception.
Not 100mm+, but still pretty big.
EDIT: I'd rather see the 190 with the rutsatz of a pod with 2x20mm under each wing (4x20mm in pods), still has its inboard cannon (now 6x20mm) and also has the 13mm MGs (now 6x20mm & 2x13mm).
Imagine that firepower. NOBODY would be safe in a bomber, anywhere!
Hell, it could probably do a lot of damage in ground attack as well. Take out GVs in single bursts :lol
Would be a hoot.
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Hi Tony,
>This was as fruitless as all of the others."
Well, the Jägerfaust at least was successful in combat when it was used by Me 163 pilot to kill a B-17. As far as I know, this was the only operational sortie with the Jägerfaust, but it proved the concept.
(Ethell/Price, "Die deutschen Düsenflugzeuge im Kampfeinsatz")
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Gotta love the Me262 with the 50mm cannon out the nose. It only stuck out 8 feet and required a counter weight in the tail. I think we need that in the game.
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I heard that the recoil from the 50mm was a terrible strain on the plane, and the flight characteristics were atrocious with it installed.
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Wasn't there a Ju-88 with something like a 300 mm strapped on the bottom, or something like that?
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Originally posted by airbumba
Wasn't there a Ju-88 with something like a 300 mm strapped on the bottom, or something like that?
ewww... now thats a mental image i didnt need. a leather wearing luftweenie with a strap-on.
nightmares for me.
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Originally posted by Furball
ewww... now thats a mental image i didnt need. a leather wearing luftweenie with a strap-on.
nightmares for me.
:eek: :aok
Haha, walked right into that one, wooohooo. Also gives new urgency to 'check six'.
I was gunna edit it, but for the sake of humour, i'll leave it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
There was also the IJA twin engine scout plane that got an odd caliber (47mm? Not sure) big cannon for bomber interception.
Not 100mm+, but still pretty big.
EDIT: I'd rather see the 190 with the rutsatz of a pod with 2x20mm under each wing (4x20mm in pods), still has its inboard cannon (now 6x20mm) and also has the 13mm MGs (now 6x20mm & 2x13mm).
Imagine that firepower. NOBODY would be safe in a bomber, anywhere!
Hell, it could probably do a lot of damage in ground attack as well. Take out GVs in single bursts :lol
Would be a hoot.
I bought the Armour die cast model of that FW from Bohdi
during his "clearance" sale. The toughest thing was trying to
get the plane out of the box without damaging the pencil lead
size 20mm pod barrels :)
It's a Walter Nowotny JG54 paintjob, and looks great though.
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Give us a Ju-87 G-1 first.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Most of the 190 pilots I have interviewed say that they used this weapon daily.
You too, huh?
:D
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Tony
I am supprised your article doenst mention the Sukhoi Su8
With 4 * 45mm cannons in the belly and 4400 hp of m71s and a forward fuselage of 4-15mm thick steel..
Certainly one of the most promising ground attack prototypes of the war.
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SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!
what ever, the fact the they could even make this effective back then is amazing.
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Most of the 190 pilots I have interviewed say that they used this weapon daily.
:lol
Hope you do understand though that it takes a lot of MONEY, time, and effort it takes do the research.
Speaking of Money, Time, and effort:
Let me take a second and extend an invitation to all the community of AH to join the White 1 Foundation.
We need the support. I have contributed a large portion of my document collection to the museum and Dr Timkens is probably the largest collection of translated Luftwaffe documents on the FW-190 in the world. We have 18 complete volumes of translated manuals and an 8x10 bookcase full of documents (original). I just sent a 6 inch stack of material off to our translator. Not only are members allowed access to the library, museum, and workshop where you can examine the FW-190 in intimate detail but we will be releasing documentation to members thru the newsletter. Each month it will cover a different topic of the FW-190 along with documentation.
http://www.white1foundation.org/index.htm
Help us out, Please!
Crumpp
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punt
SU8 (http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n2/su-8.html)
(http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n2/su-8detail.gif)
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Su-8, bring something like this on line and the Gvs had better find a deep hole to hide in :D
Tiger, Panzer, T34 would just be the start, imagine what you could do to a town or a field with this plane:aok
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Originally posted by Leayme
Su-8, bring something like this on line and the Gvs had better find a deep hole to hide in :D
They don't need a whole: we have bullet proff trees :D
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Come in on a shallow approach and with the extended range of those cannons, you could probably be able to thump them pretty hard, unless they are well under the trees, then a 1000 pounder in close proximity might do enough damage.
Either way spawn campers would definitely be a rarer event, given the lack of cover at some spawn points:D
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Originally posted by Leayme
Su-8, bring something like this on line and the Gvs had better find a deep hole to hide in :D
Tiger, Panzer, T34 would just be the start, imagine what you could do to a town or a field with this plane:aok
Bah! Using the current damage model, I'll simply haul out
my trusty Luger and plink your "Deathstar's" pilot :lol
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Just think what a formatiopn of these can do.:aok
(http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW4/Ju88-161s.jpg)
(http://www.luft46.com/mess/ju88p.jpg)
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Not close to what the SU8 would do. Its got real armour and a battery of 4 45mm belt fed cannons mounted arround the center line...
Even if you loaded 2 with AP and 2 with HE and had seperate triggers for them..it would absolutly rock.
I just cant believe that Tony didnt mention it in his article. Its the best concept for a heavy gun ground attack plane to come out of the second world war.
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Sukhoi Su-8
(Russia)
Twin-engined, long-range attack aircraft. The Su-8 was designed to support the army during offensives, and to combine heavy armament with a good performance. It had a very slim fuselage and was powered by M-71 radials. After the demise of the M-71 a version with AM-42 engines was designed, but not built. Operational needs for the Su-8 had disappeared.
Type: Su-8
Function: attack
Year: 1943 Crew: 2 Engines: 2 * 1490kW M-71
Wing Span: 20.50m Length: 13.58m Height: 5.09m Wing Area: 60.0m2
Empty Weight: 9168kg Max.Weight:
Speed: 552km/h at 4600m Ceiling: 9000m Range:
Armament: 2*g45mm 5*mg7.62mm 1*mg12.7mm
The offensive armament was, of course, the aircraft's real reason for being, and here the design team excelled themselves. The main armament consisted of a battery of heavy cannon sized to defeat even the heavy Tiger and Panther tanks. The guns were housed in a broad, shallow pod under the center fuselage. The first prototype had four 37-mm 11P-37 (later NS-37) automatic cannon, each loaded with 50-round clips by the air gunner. Each gun could fire 735-gram shells at about 250 shots/min with a muzzle velocity of 900 meters/sec. They would penetrate 40-mm armor at any angle up to 45 degrees. In the second prototype, these weapons were supplanted by a quartet of 45-mm OKB-16-45 (later NS-45) automatic antitank guns, essentially the same weapon with a larger bore and shorter barrel. These formidable weapons fired 1065-gram shells at the same rate with a muzzle velocity of 850 meters/sec, and could guarantee penetration of 58-mm armor. These, too, were clip-fed in the prototype. But the OKB-16 design team already had a fully automatic feed system in test. On their own, these guns fired approximately 1 ton/min, the heaviest weight of fire achieved by any wartime aircraft. For sighting and for attacks on soft targets, eight 7.62-mm ShKAS machine guns were mounted in the wings immediately outboard of the propellers, each gun being capable of rates of fire between 1800 and 2700 rounds/min. In addition, four 150-kg FAB150 general-purpose bombs could be carried in bays between the engines and the wing guns.
Many, perhaps most, heavily armored attack aircraft have emerged overweight, underpowered, and ill-handling. Even the successful ones were often tolerated for their utilitarian virtues rather than loved for their flying qualities. But the Su-8 was reportedly an excellent airplane, with first-rate handling at all design weights. Maximum speed was 311 mph at sea level, 342 mph at 15,000 ft. It could takeoff in 1300 ft and land in 1528 ft at a modest 87 mph. It could climb to 10,000 ft in 7.3 min and to 16,000 ft in 9 min. Service ceiling was 28,000 ft. Range with maximum weapons load was 373 miles, 932 miles without the bombs.
By the time the Su-8 appeared, however, its time was already past, in the eyes of officialdom at least. Russia was clearly winning the war, and anything that might interfere with the production of the existing, war-winning aircraft types was frowned upon. No doubt this was the right decision, given the outcome. But there can also be little doubt that many a Soviet soldier would have been glad of the assistance of this last and greatest of the Shturmoviks, especially during the last, frantic dash for Berlin, when Soviet spearheads often faced elephantine heavy tanks 150 miles or more from the nearest air support.
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Originally posted by Rino
Bah! Using the current damage model, I'll simply haul out
my trusty Luger and plink your "Deathstar's" pilot :lol
You know what? You're probably absolutely correct:D
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If you were looking through the Soviet/Russian section of the MAD (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/index.html) you probably saw this also:
------------
Grigorovich IP-4
(Russia)
Monoplane fighter, a smaller derivative of the IP-1, armed with four recoilless 45mm cannon. One built, a second was abandoned uncompleted.
Type: IP-4
Function: fighter
Year: 1934 Crew: 1 Engines: 1 * 640hp Wright Cyclone 9
Wing Span: 9.60m Length: 7.08m Height: Wing Area: 16.36m2
Empty Weight: 1080kg Max.Weight:
Speed: 435km/h Ceiling: 8300m Range: 830km
Armament: 4*g45mm 2*mg7.62mm
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4*45mm is a hell of an armament package for 1934, especially considering most fighters were given the WW1 standard 2*0.303 in those days
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Originally posted by airbumba
Wasn't there a Ju-88 with something like a 300 mm strapped on the bottom, or something like that?
There was a late Ju88 prototype with an 11" battlecruiser gun installed for use on capital ships, the blast was too big for the plane tho. Tony Williams and I talked about it in another thread. Search under Ju88 and Munchausen, that might work.
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From 'Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45':
"Largest of all the RCLs considered for firing from aircraft was a German weapon, the Rheinmetall G104, a 36,5 cm calibre gun designed to fire a 635 kg shell at 315 m/sec, the recoil being balanced by the expulsion of the equally heavy cartridge case to the rear. The intention was to hang the four tonne gun under a bomber and fire it in a steep dive, battleships probably being the main intended target. However, ground firing tests demonstrated that the muzzle and venturi blasts would be so severe that the aircraft would be unable to survive them, so the idea was abandoned."
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion
forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Originally posted by sullie363
Gotta love the Me262 with the 50mm cannon out the nose. It only stuck out 8 feet and required a counter weight in the tail. I think we need that in the game.
get FB AEP
I haven't managed to hit any B17s with it l though :(
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Japanese KI-109 "PEGGY" carried a 75mm cannon to hunt B-29's with and actually saw some combat I believe
As for the FW-190F - IMO the HE and AP versions of the PANZERBLITZ rockets would be MUCH more usefull than the 77mm "coconut thrower".
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Ya, I'd be happy if they just slap on the 82mm Russian rocket from the IL2 as an interim measure for the 190-F