Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: deSelys on November 18, 2004, 03:57:43 PM
-
Originally posted by Habu in a locked thread
It really pains me to see young Euros being taught how the US was not a friend in WW2 until they were attacked themselves.
Wow what next? How bad can you make the US seem?
Question for you bright young guys. Why was the US attacked in the first place? I mean why shake the hornets nest if they are content to sit on the sidelines?
Why did the U-boat fleet redeploy after Pearl Harbour and sink hundreds of thousands of tons of US flagged shipping if Hitler had such a good thing going?
I am amazed at how stupid some people here are. And scared that they are living where this was was fought and they no so little about it.
What amazes me is how you can reach those conclusions if you've completely read the posts. So I'll ask you to read the thread again without going overly emotional.
What I mean is that bashing France for standing (together with UK) in front of Germany while the rest of the world was watching (or even worse looking elsewhere like my country did) is just plain wrong. The USA brought an uncomparable help to end WWII, yes. But at the beginning, with the exception of some courageous individuals *, they didn't do much.
Personally I'm not blaming anyone for this. Like you said, it was Europe's mess and the US were nowhere morally obliged to intervene. But making fun of a country (and mostly of people) who tried to stop a dangerous opponent is beyond comprehension.
Finally, negating the fact that a not negligible fraction of your population was supporting the nazis is revisionism of your own history. Those people were never extremely vocal nor explicit, and they went completely silent after Pearl Harbour, but they had some influence in the first months of the war.
* and please don't mix people (for whom I have the utmost respect) like the pilots of the Eaqle Squadron with the Flying Tigers: the first group came to help England while the country was facing a grim future and, as W. Churchill said, had nothing to offer but blood, sweat and tears.
The second group was made of military pilots (they were certain to be reenlisted at the end of their term in the AVG) who volunteered for a risky but extremely well paid job.
And btw Skuzzy, the other thread degenerated right at the beginning when some individuals couldn't refrain from cheap humor although the original poster had explicitly asked not to bash.
-
[SIZE=9]IN[/SIZE]credible! :D
-
INdispicable
:rofl
-
INescapably improper.
-
W. L. Mackenzie King Declares War
Below is an extract from a speech given by Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King in the House of Commons, in September, 1939.
For months, indeed for years, the shadow of impending conflict in Europe has been ever present. Through these troubled years, no stone has been left unturned, no road unexplored in the patient search for peace. Unhappily for the world, Herr Hitler and the nazi regime in Germany have persisted in their attempt to extend their control over other peoples and countries, and to pursue their aggressive designs in wanton disregard of all treaty obligations, and peaceful methods of adjusting international disputes. They have had to resort increasingly to agencies of deception, terrorism and violence. It is this reliance upon force, this lust for conquest, this determination to dominate throughout the world, which is the real cause of the war that to-day threatens the freedom of mankind.
This morning, the king, speaking to his peoples at home and across the seas, appealed to all, to make their own, the cause of freedom, which Britain again has taken up. Canada has already answered that call. On Friday last, the government, speaking on behalf of the Canadian people, announced that in the event of the United Kingdom becoming engaged in war in the effort to resist aggression, they would, as soon as parliament meets, seek its authority for effective cooperation by Canada at the side of Britain.
In what manner and to what extent Canada may most effectively be able to co-operate in the common cause is as I have stated, something which parliament itself will decide. All I need to add at the moment is that Canada, as a free nation of the British Commonwealth, is bringing her cooperation voluntarily. Our effort will be voluntary.
The people of Canada will, I know, face the days of stress and strain which lie ahead with calm and resolute courage. There is no home in Canada, no family, and no individual whose fortunes and freedom are not bound up in the present struggle. I appeal to my fellow Canadians to unite in a national effort to save from destruction all that makes life itself worth living, and to preserve for future generations those liberties and institutions which others have bequeathed to us.
--William Lyon Mackenzie King,
Prime Minister of Canada, September, 1939
-
INconceivable!
-
Royal Canadian Navy (RCN)
The Royal Canadian Navy started the war with 13 vessels, of which 6 were destroyers, and 3,500 personnel, and ended it with the third largest navy in the world with 373 fighting ships and over 110,000 members, all of whom were volunteers.
Escort of merchant ship convoys was the RCN's chief responsibility during the Battle. The first convoy sailed from Halifax on September 16, 1939, escorted by the Canadian destroyer St. Laurent.
Approximately 2,000 members of the RCN died during the war, and 24 RCN vessels were sunk.
Canadian aircraft and ships, alone or in consort with other ships or aircraft, sank 50 U-boats.
Merchant Marine
I know it was hard for the European powers all alone there in September 39 fighting the axis.
-
Habu, have I ever said something about Canada? I certainly don't discuss those facts.
-
Originally posted by deSelys
The USA brought an uncomparable help to end WWII, yes. But at the beginning, with the exception of some courageous individuals *, they didn't do much.
In the beginning we didnt do much because even if the public would have supported it we quite simple were nowhere near ready or able to do much other then what we did.
Our Armed forces were at a pitiful level.
Even going so far as having to train using sticks for machine guns and Trucks as make beleive tanks.
In between wars Patton himself was taking money out of his own pocket to get spare parts from Sears & Roebuck
What we needed was time to rebuild which Roosevelt wisely did.
But it takes time to retool to make machines of war.
Time to train troops and get and put together the logistics needed to place a force in the feild.
In the meantime its safe to say we did all we could
-
Good post DREDIOCK.
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Habu, have I ever said something about Canada? I certainly don't discuss those facts.
You said "What I mean is that bashing France for standing (together with UK) in front of Germany while the rest of the world was watching"
The rest of the world and specifically Canada was hardly watching.
-
Agreed Drediock.
How can we blame the generation who fought in the trenches during WWI for the bad preparation of the french, brit and, as you point out, US armies. There was a widespread feeling that WWI was a terrible mistake and that it could never happen again...
However the next disaster to come was already written in the Versailles Treaty: once defeated, the enemy shouldn't be humiliated. IMO the Nazi party wouldn't have had so much followers if Germany had been able to gain back its 'respectable nation' status after a few years.
-
Originally posted by Habu
You said "What I mean is that bashing France for standing (together with UK) in front of Germany while the rest of the world was watching"
The rest of the world and specifically Canada was hardly watching.
I agree. Sorry for that.
-
Different people...different ideas...different opinions...pretty hard to change them no matter how hard one tries...
-
Wow, this is completely amazing.
Never before in posting history on any forum have I seen every single post be completely FALSE, NOT TRUE, or just the stupidest things ever said.
Now, I don't mean one or two of the posts are bad. I mean every time someone tried to post something constructive, they were completely wrong. I'm astonished.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wow, this is completely amazing.
Never before in posting history on any forum have I seen every single post be completely FALSE, NOT TRUE, or just the stupidest things ever said.
Now, I don't mean one or two of the posts are bad. I mean every time someone tried to post something constructive, they were completely wrong. I'm astonished.
Thanks for bringing nothing (except your arrogance) to the discussion.
Move along.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wow, this is completely amazing.
Never before in posting history on any forum have I seen every single post be completely FALSE, NOT TRUE, or just the stupidest things ever said.
Now, I don't mean one or two of the posts are bad. I mean every time someone tried to post something constructive, they were completely wrong. I'm astonished.
Ok Hotshot. You seem to think your the expert
Correct us
I KNOW not a single thing I wrote in my post was wrong.
-
Fine.
But at the beginning, with the exception of some courageous individuals *, they didn't do much.
WRONG. Our entire economy had kicked up by the beginning of WW2 in europe. We were making parts, weapons and anything that could possibly be conceived to send (/sell) to europe.
Like you said, it was Europe's mess and the US were nowhere morally obliged to intervene.
WRONG. It's always everybody's responsibility to get rid of those who are corrupt.
In the beginning we didnt do much because even if the public would have supported it we quite simple were nowhere near ready or able to do much other then what we did.
WRONG. Not only did the Public SUPPORT it, but we did actually begin to do things in our industry and military training.
Our Armed forces were at a pitiful level.
WRONG. Government Officials and other people in the US recognized the impending war before the start in europe. Our forces started to recruit and build up. While it was nothing near our 1942 level, it was no where near pitiful level.
How can we blame the generation who fought in the trenches during WWI for the bad preparation of the french, brit and, as you point out, US armies. There was a widespread feeling that WWI was a terrible mistake and that it could never happen again...
WRONG. WW1 sucked, and many people died. But in no way did people just think that it was a terrible mistake. Everything in European history lead up to WW1 in a big bang. Europe was due for it and no one was sorry about it.
However the next disaster to come was already written in the Versailles Treaty: once defeated, the enemy shouldn't be humiliated. IMO the Nazi party wouldn't have had so much followers if Germany had been able to gain back its 'respectable nation' status after a few years.
WRONG. It wasn't involvement that lead to the Nazi party, but uninvolvement.
I actually was wrong too. I overlooked the canadian stuff. While I didn't see the other post, I didn't see how this bridged into what the topic was.
BTW, I encourage everyone involved to pick up a history book and learn this stuff for yourself. If you go out on your own free will to learn something, it'll have so much more power and influence.
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Agreed Drediock.
However the next disaster to come was already written in the Versailles Treaty: once defeated, the enemy shouldn't be humiliated. IMO the Nazi party wouldn't have had so much followers if Germany had been able to gain back its 'respectable nation' status after a few years.
On that point I would haveto agree.
I beleive even Alexander the Great tended not to totally humiliate his conquests but tried to more bring them into the fold
Good example more currently is East and West Germany and the differences between rebuilding in the west and supression in the east
-
lasersailor184
that had to be the most full of crap post I have read in recent memory.
Oh because you say "Wrong" makes it so?
I suggest YOU read your history books more carefully as you obviously havent much of a clue as to what your talking about
-
Habu,
Try Combat Mission. They have historical battles between the Germans and Canucks.
Did you mention they were all volunteers..:p
-
I can't belive such fuss was started over my thread about helmets...
It turned into a bash ,after I asked it not to...
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
WRONG. Our entire economy had kicked up by the beginning of WW2 in europe. We were making parts, weapons and anything that could possibly be conceived to send (/sell) to europe.
Correct but it wasn't it because of the foreign customer more than the will of the US governerment ?
WRONG. It's always everybody's responsibility to get rid of those who are corrupt.
Right ,I mean you're right not that your wrong is right (if this sentence make sense :p)
WRONG. Not only did the Public SUPPORT it, but we did actually begin to do things in our industry and military training.
Can't answer here having not a clear idea on this.
WRONG. Government Officials and other people in the US recognized the impending war before the start in europe. Our forces started to recruit and build up. While it was nothing near our 1942 level, it was no where near pitiful level.
Right and wrong ,the pitiful level was true (IMO of course) in 1939 (if you have doubt compare to 1941)
WRONG. WW1 sucked, and many people died. But in no way did people just think that it was a terrible mistake. Everything in European history lead up to WW1 in a big bang. Europe was due for it and no one was sorry about it.
Right and wrong , the average "Joe" (aka "Jean" in France :) ) thought it was a tragedie and came back from war with this : "Plus jamais ça" (never again)
Perhaps some people were war monger but a lot less in 1918 than 1914.
WRONG. It wasn't involvement that lead to the Nazi party, but uninvolvement.
I think it's right too.
I actually was wrong too. I overlooked the canadian stuff. While I didn't see the other post, I didn't see how this bridged into what the topic was.
Don't see either how and why it was draged here.
BTW, I encourage everyone involved to pick up a history book and learn this stuff for yourself. If you go out on your own free will to learn something, it'll have so much more power and influence.
I agree except I think you should use plural, reading sevral books will help form an opinion as truth in history is a shade of grey
lasersailor184 you should make this kind of post more often , it's far more interesting :)
-
Sorry lasersailor I'm not impressed. You're advancing your opinions, not facts.
Economy kicked in: maybe so, but you can hardly compare putting your life on the line with selling more goods.
Everybody's responsability: come on, this is pure utopia.
Public support before PH???? Have you links to back up this bold affirmation?
If you needed to recruit and rebuild your army, it is the proof that it wasn't in a good enough state to begin with.
Again, prove me that most people thought that WWI was a good thing.
Actually we agree about the nazi party, but I still can't understand how you misinterpreted what I said. Is my english so bad?
May I have the references of THE history book you've read? I would like to be sure to never recommend it to anyone.
-
Réveillé du pied gauche ce matin monsieur de Selys-Longchamp ?
:p
-
Hé....mes collègues savent qu'il faut m'approcher avec prudence avant ma 3ème tasse de café ;)
À propos je n'ai aucun lien avec la lignée de Selys. J'avais juste choisi ce nom par respect pour le héro.
-
Bah mince alors ... moi qui me félicitais de connaitre un baron de la haute :D
-
te faudra encore attendre, une fois.
-
Oh boy... what a way to start a day...
Now, where's that coffee machine?
-
laiser u are a moron..
Is that completly wrong?..lololo
u are too easy....YA usa was well prepared before 1942...
LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLLLLLOLolololo llolololololololololollololol ololololololololololollololol ololololololololololololololo llo
-
Originally posted by deSelys
Hé....mes collègues savent qu'il faut m'approcher avec prudence avant ma 3ème tasse de café
:lol
Je viens de boire la 1er tasse. Alors, je puis regarder le monde. Cherchez Morpheus!
-
All of europe erupted into a world war Greencloud. The government didn't have to go to a Mensa meeting to figure out what was going to happen.
Next, the army was bad because of isolationist policies AND the depression. But they kicked it up before the start of official war in Europe.
Most of the public (I should say) supported involvement. There are always those that don't like war at all. But most wanted to get involved.
What I meant about WW1 was that going into it, people really wanted it. The war sucked and a lot of people died for not much change.
Also, about the military levels. At 1939 we still weren't ready to fight a war, but it was a good amount more then we had 4 years earlier.
-
For those of you that dont speak french
Translator (http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn?lin=en&translate_me=yes)
-
Babelfish?
Using that as a translator starts wars.
-SW
-
Originally posted by Hawklore
I can't belive such fuss was started over my thread about helmets...
It turned into a bash ,after I asked it not to...
LOL, like telling a child not to touch the wet paint.
-
Originally posted by deSelys
If you needed to recruit and rebuild your army, it is the proof that it wasn't in a good enough state to begin with.
When war broke out how many allied countries were properly prepared to fight a war like WW2 ?
New Zealand wasn't, neither was Australia. When NZ declared war on Germany in '39 we only had raw manpower to send to your neck of the woods to fight the krauts. Inadequate training and hard fighting cost us high casualties.But for us and probably the other commonwealth countries delaying involvment in the war wasn't an option or even wanted.
For what ever reason, their wasn't the same urgency for the Yanks to get involved in the war from the outset. I don't care why they were late because all that matters is they eventualy did come to the party, bless their hearts, because I'm real bad with chopsticks.
Excel
-
According to Babelfish this is what was said
Straffo: Awaked left foot this morning Mister de Selys-Longchamp?
Selys: Hé... mes coll?gues know qu'il is necessary m'approcher with prudence before my 3?me cup of coffee ? matter I n'ai no bond with the line of Selys. Just selected J'avais this name by respect for the hér
Straffo: Thin Bah then... me which congratulated me to know a baron high
Selys: will still be necessary you to wait, once.
Beetle :Originally posted by deSelys Hé... mes coll?gues know qu'il is necessary m'approcher with prudence before my 3?me cup of coffee
I have just drunk the 1st cup. Then, I then to look at the world. Seek Morpheus!
Me: Well that's cleared that up eh?
-
lol, it did indeed :D
-
Is that swahili Cpxxx ?
:D
-
Babelfish R0xx0rz! :lol
Straffo asked me if I got up in a bad mood. I answered that my colleagues usually leave me alone before I have my 3rd cup of coffee of the day. Then I pointed that I had no ties with the family 'de Selys', that I had chosen the name as a sign of respect for the belgian hero.
Straffo said that he was disappointed because he tought that he was talking to a real baron. To which I answered some belgian nonsense....
-
Pour une période de deux trois jour je vais utiliser babalfish pour traduire mes messages
Je sens que l'on va bien rire.
C'est incroyable de voir des traductions aussi comiques
BabelFish say :
For one period of two three day I will use babalfish to translate my messages I feel that l'on well will laugh. Incredible C'est to see such comic translations
-
For one period of two three day I will use babalfish to translate my messages I feel that one well will laugh. It is incredible to see such comic translations
Google language tools (http://translate.google.com/translate_t) works better. Except for the BGB or minus scripts.
-
Those language tools don't do a good job of converting English in the imperfect tense into French. The imperfect tense is of course I was or I used to do something. I used to give = je donnais - but the language converter I once looked at translated into something like j'ai utilisé de donner. :rolleyes:
-
Here's the Google version
Awaked left foot this morning Mister de Selys-Longchamp?
Hé... mes collcgues know that I should be approached with prudence before my 3cme cup of coffee R matter I do not have any bond with the line of Selys. I had just chosen this name by respect for the héro.
Thin Bah then... me which congratulated me to know a baron of high
you will still be necessary to wait,
once I has just drunk the 1st cup. Then, I then to look at the world. Seek Morpheus!.
Better but still mad
-
And translated back into French...quelle horreur!
Voici la version de Google
a-t-elle réveillé le pied gauche ce Monsieur de Selys-Longchamp de matin? Les collcgues de mes de Hé... savent que je devrais être approché avec la prudence avant que ma tasse 3cme de matière du café R je n'aient aucun lien avec la ligne de Selys. J'avais juste choisi ce nom par respect pour le héro.
Bah mince puis... je ce qui m'a félicité pour connaître un baron de haute que vous serez toujours nécessaire pour attendre, une fois
qu'I a juste bu la 1ère tasse.
Puis, I puis pour regarder le monde. Recherche Morpheus!.
Améliorez mais encore fou
-
Yes, translators cannot translate idioms. Clearly "Réveillé du pied gauche" is the French equivalent of the English expression "got out of the wrong side of bed", meaning started the day in a bad mood.
I learned French at school, then again in private tuition French lessons (No, not the kind of French lessons you see advertised in the phone kiosks outside Paddington station). And while this provided a good grounding (verbs and grammar) the only way to learn a language is to go to a country where they speak that language.
Otherwise, one sounds like an American gun nut who has Google-ised himself full of British gun control facts, and then purports to know what life is like in Britain. Translators cannot handle idioms (yet) just as Google cannot be used as a window on life in another country.
-
Wow, this got derailed really quick.
-
Originally posted by Hawklore
I can't belive such fuss was started over my thread about helmets...
It turned into a bash ,after I asked it not to...
Off Topic! Move along.
:D
-
That most people here have a relatively ok grasp of history. just differing views.
In response to the post that started this thread, I think what we are seeing is a bit of a backlash. Unfortunately much of hollywoods output, and the general attitude that the rest of us have to bow down and thank the USA every time the War is mentioned has given some of the younger generation the hump. No one is disputing that USA contributed greatly, its just that they did not win the war for us as we have so often been told. We were in it together, and Yes europe was in it longer and proportionaly suffered much more.
Lets stop telling the world that it owes the US and this backlash might stop.
-
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1093286587_moron.jpg)
sorry, not posted with any intent. just couldnt resist :D
-
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Oh god help us!
-
i would say it is BGBMAW in that picture, but there are too few spelling mistakes.
-
sniff..sniff..i cant take the personal attcks anymore..
sniff..sniffle
You know..you guys dotn get moderated when you attack me...
But..so Skuzzy came for me.....but ..Yoiu guys didnt care ..becuase it wasnt you....
Skuzzy came for furball......but you gusy didnt care ..becuase it wasnt you..
Skuzzy came for ...welllsomthn like that...
SAVE ME....my fweeelings are hurt!!!
RAINBOW WARRIORS!!!!
Love
BiGB
xoxo
-
I wonder if there already exists a statistical study about the correlation between poor spelling and mullet?
Pulitzer price material IMHO.
-
LOL
-
Originally posted by Hawklore
I can't belive such fuss was started over my thread about helmets...
It turned into a bash ,after I asked it not to...
That is absolutely the best way to get a bashathon going. :D
-
Originally posted by Blue2
That most people here have a relatively ok grasp of history. just differing views.
In response to the post that started this thread, I think what we are seeing is a bit of a backlash. Unfortunately much of hollywoods output, and the general attitude that the rest of us have to bow down and thank the USA every time the War is mentioned has given some of the younger generation the hump. No one is disputing that USA contributed greatly, its just that they did not win the war for us as we have so often been told. We were in it together, and Yes europe was in it longer and proportionaly suffered much more.
Lets stop telling the world that it owes the US and this backlash might stop.
Those are lame reasons you give for not wanting to give credit where credit is due, in regards to the United States impact on the war. To say the US contributed greatly is a big understatement, it was the major differance between victory and defeat. If some Euros have a problem acknowledging that, then I think the reasons might run deeper than them just getting the "hump" over hollywood entertainment or the possible few Americans who actually think the US won the war singlehanded.
Excel
-
Originally posted by Excel1
Those are lame reasons you give for not wanting to give credit where credit is due, in regards to the United States impact on the war. To say the US contributed greatly is a big understatement, it was the major differance between victory and defeat. If some Euros have a problem acknowledging that, then I think the reasons might run deeper than them just getting the "hump" over hollywood entertainment or the possible few Americans who actually think the US won the war singlehanded.
Excel
1 word....
ARROGANCE
-
As you know, I enjoy yanking yanks' chains on this board. :lol
But I do concede that we could not have won WW2 without them. A quiz question I once heard was "who was the first country to declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor?" The unconfirmed answer I heard was Britain! - Because Churchill was desperate for America to weigh in on the British side, and decided to make sure they did!
I think what irks some people (certainly myself and possibly guys like Blue2) is arrogant yanks who use the US involvement in WW2 as a means of crowing that their country is better than anywhere else (not true). Their crowing is doubly annoying given the fact that they almost certainly have not been outside the US (the ones who have do not see the need for crowing of this kind) and the fact that they personally had sweet naff all to do with the progress and outcome of WW2, despite the fact that they'd like to think that they did.
-
my view is...
USA didnt save us, we saved ourselves. We wouldn't have lost the war without US help, but i couldn't see us winning it alone either.
The Soviets could have won it though, so i believe the outcome would have been the same. It just would have taken a lot longer.
The war in the Pacific is where the credit really should go to the US, they virtually did that on their own, so kudos to the Yanks.
-
furball..you got to be kidding yourself..
England would of been germany FORSURE
You know what Churchill was most scared about..
U-BOATS!!!
they woudl of strangled you guys easily....with 2 things
1) USA not being able to send you guys..gas..guns..ammo..raw materials..ect..
2) If Dornitz wouyld have been givin the U boats he requested...they woudl have slayed all of the atlantic
btw beelte..USA is #1...
-
Originally posted by GreenCloud
furball..you got to be kidding yourself..
England would of been germany FORSURE
You know what Churchill was most scared about..
U-BOATS!!!
they woudl of strangled you guys easily....with 2 things
1) USA not being able to send you guys..gas..guns..ammo..raw materials..ect..
2) If Dornitz wouyld have been givin the U boats he requested...they woudl have slayed all of the atlantic
btw beelte..USA is #1...
my grandfather was RN, i know all about the convoys. My position stands.