Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mitchk on November 18, 2004, 04:24:02 PM
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OMG people. I just read about half the post below about this and I can't believe how stupid some of you are.
first off. the marines are allowed to handle both obviouse and percived threats with force. the man facking death was a precieved threat.
2 the Geneva convention does not applie to the innsurgents, they are not part of a millitary they are civilians with guns.
3 If you want to applie the rulse then the marine had every right to kill the man as he was facking death.If you listen to the video the clearly says "he's facking he's dead . he's facking he's dead."
And if the guy wasn't facking then he was dead and the marine shot a corps.:D
stop listening to CNN.
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what was the man doing to death....?
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I agree. Facking death is t3h bad.
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he obviously went to the HiTech Creations schule of speeling.
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The power of brainwashing is increadable.
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Originally posted by mitchk
OMG people. I just read about half the post below about this and I can't believe how stupid some of you are.
first off. the marines are allowed to handle both obviouse and percived threats with force. the man facking death was a precieved threat.
2 the Geneva convention does not applie to the innsurgents, they are not part of a millitary they are civilians with guns.
3 If you want to applie the rulse then the marine had every right to kill the man as he was facking death.If you listen to the video the clearly says "he's facking he's dead . he's facking he's dead."
And if the guy wasn't facking then he was dead and the marine shot a corps.:D
stop listening to CNN.
It is that most of the people have no clue. They just won't peace and happiness, they (the people that are saying hang the Marine) have never been in a war and never had to do any thing like that.
Now with that I am a U.S. Marine, and I have been in for 9yr. I have not been to Iraq, but I have been to Afghanistan, And other ***** holes to.
WAR $ucks it is not fun to kill a man!!!! It $UCKS!!!!
But if that was me would have shot him to!!!!!!!
Now ask any one that has had to fight in combat and about 99% will say the same the 1% are the John Kerry's.
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the question should be asked.. If that were an 'inusrgent' shooting a face down marine in the head, what would you say about it?
Step back and do some thinking.
Would an insurgent shoot a marine in the same situation?
you betcha!
Should a marine shoot an insurgent in the head in that situation?
Call me a bleeding heart liberal but, no. Why? Because i still hold out some hope that we are a cut above the insurgents, or lets just call them what they really are. The enemies army without the money for a uniform. Since there was a cameraman in the room, we have to assume that the situation was well in hand, save for a booby trap. And then we may as well execute each and every iraqi we see.
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Im not sure how anyone can second guess or pass judgement the Marine over there with his bellybutton on the line. The insurgent got what he had coming to him.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
the question should be asked.. If that were an 'inusrgent' shooting a face down marine in the head, what would you say about it?
Step back and do some thinking.
Would an insurgent shoot a marine in the same situation?
you betcha!
Should a marine shoot an insurgent in the head in that situation?
Call me a bleeding heart liberal but, no. Why? Because i still hold out some hope that we are a cut above the insurgents, or lets just call them what they really are. The enemies army without the money for a uniform. Since there was a cameraman in the room, we have to assume that the situation was well in hand, save for a booby trap. And then we may as well execute each and every iraqi we see.
Ok you are a bleeding heart Liberal.
1st he was not face down, 2nd he had a AK-47 4ft from him, 3rd he was playing dead, 4th the Marine had a bud killed the same way the day before.
You are just what I was talking about.
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Originally posted by mitchk
2 the Geneva convention does not applie to the innsurgents, they are not part of a millitary they are civilians with guns.
I question just this part , if geneva convention don't apply what are the rules ?
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
the question should be asked.. If that were an 'inusrgent' shooting a face down marine in the head, what would you say about it?
Step back and do some thinking.
Would an insurgent shoot a marine in the same situation?
you betcha!
Should a marine shoot an insurgent in the head in that situation?
Call me a bleeding heart liberal but, no. Why? Because i still hold out some hope that we are a cut above the insurgents, or lets just call them what they really are. The enemies army without the money for a uniform. Since there was a cameraman in the room, we have to assume that the situation was well in hand, save for a booby trap. And then we may as well execute each and every iraqi we see.
Assume watermelon dummy. Making assumptions about that guy being harmless, about the situation being "in hand" will get you killed quick. Thank God the Marines and Soldiers there are brighter and more in touch than you are. Have you missed the newsreports about booby trapped injured and dead bodies?
And,
Did you miss this???? Where have you been? Where was your righteous indignation then???
4 Marines slain
Iraq massacre video shows looted bodies
BY RICHARD SISK
DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU
Grim video shows bodies of U.S. Marines killed in ambush.
WASHINGTON - Four Marines were shot to death in Iraq yesterday - and a video of the soldiers sprawled in the dirt was delivered to news outlets.
The bodies of the ambushed Marines were shown within feet of one another in the hostile town of Ramadi in what appeared to be a walled compound.
Their body armor - mandatory for U.S. troops in hostile areas - was missing, and a nearby field pack appeared to have been looted.
Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt declined to comment on reports that the four were shot at close range, possibly indicating that they were executed after being captured.
Freaking hand wringing tree hugging peta loving weeping liberals have no real clue about life outside their safe little enclaves. Get a clue.
dago
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Originally posted by Dago
Assume watermelon dummy. Making assumptions about that guy being harmless, about the situation being "in hand" will get you killed quick. Thank God the Marines and Soldiers there are brighter and more in touch than you are. Have you missed the newsreports about booby trapped injured and dead bodies?
And,
Did you miss this???? Where have you been? Where was your righteous indignation then???
Freaking hand wringing tree hugging peta loving weeping liberals have no real clue about life outside their safe little enclaves. Get a clue.
dago
Touche:aok
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It would appear, the enemy combatants dont quite meet the qualifications for POW status
According to the Geneva convention that is
seems they dont quite fulfill the conditions that need to be met to fall under militia status
"Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:
1. Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.
2. The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.
C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention. "
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whithawk... a simple armband has been recognized as a "uniform" by most nations and courts.
It is simple... blame the moron terrorist strategist that came up with the "fake surrender" "fake death" strategy.
If they move when I come into a room and I can't see their hand... I would shoot.
lazs
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The most stupid thing about this kinda action is that you actually make your enemy fiting until they die. That is their only option anyway. If they could surrender properly they might do that.
If that woulda been me in that sit. I woulda telled everyone to back out and granated the guy, if I was sure he had strapped a bomb to himselfe
edit: easy for me to say sofasitting it, the shooter prolly experienced a lot of crap before this happend. dosnt make the action legal anyway.
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Originally posted by mitchk
OMG people. I just read about half the post below about this and I can't believe how stupid some of you are.
first off. the marines are allowed to handle both obviouse and percived threats with force. the man facking death was a precieved threat.
2 the Geneva convention does not applie to the innsurgents, they are not part of a millitary they are civilians with guns.
3 If you want to applie the rulse then the marine had every right to kill the man as he was facking death.If you listen to the video the clearly says "he's facking he's dead . he's facking he's dead."
And if the guy wasn't facking then he was dead and the marine shot a corps.:D
stop listening to CNN.
Heh, learn to facking spell, why dontcha?
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All this hand wringing hoopla wouldn't even exist if the Marines had just tossed in a couple fragmentation grenades before entering the mosque anyway.
"Reconnoiter by high explosive" would be a good rule of thumb in Fallujah. :aok
dago
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Circumventing the language filter
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Naah, just lob the Zyklon-B canisters in from the windows and begun to dig the mass graves :)
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Call me a bleeding heart liberal but, no. Why? Because i still hold out some hope that we are a cut above the insurgents, or lets just call them what they really are. The enemies army without the money for a uniform. Since there was a cameraman in the room, we have to assume that the situation was well in hand, save for a booby trap. And then we may as well execute each and every iraqi we see.
I think that this is too simplistic of an argument. We are a cut above the insurgents, and this situation doesn't prove anything. This was a split second decision in a LIFE OR DEATH situation. The difference is, the insurgents would not hesitate to go in guns blazing because the only time they take prisoners, is to behead them. The Marine heard that the insurgent was playing dead and that was one of the dangers that he has seen.
Btw... why is it so easy for you to assume that the Marine is just a bloodthirsty animal that just wants to kill whatever he can get away with?
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Originally posted by mosgood
This was a split second decision in a LIFE OR DEATH situation.
How do you know? From the vid it looked like they had plenty of time to talk and tinker about the situation before blasting guys brains to the wall.
Obviously we have been looking different vids.
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Circumventing the language filter.
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Said
"WAR $ucks it is not fun to kill a man!!!! It $UCKS!!!!"
This is from a guy who's served.
The rest of you rabid, probably Racist Hawks in here should listen to this.
Thankfully I've never had to go to war and probably never will, but I know it aint good. Why oh why can't we find another way.
War should be confined to history and the computer game! ( this is a WW2 simulation site )
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Originally posted by airguard
The most stupid thing about this kinda action is that you actually make your enemy fiting until they die. That is their only option anyway. If they could surrender properly they might do that.
If that woulda been me in that sit. I woulda telled everyone to back out and granated the guy, if I was sure he had strapped a bomb to himselfe
edit: easy for me to say sofasitting it, the shooter prolly experienced a lot of crap before this happend. dosnt make the action legal anyway.
your kidding , right?
You do know of course, that the "insurgents"who are fighting in Falluja are there for 2 reasons.
1. to kill US soldiers
2. to die and go to vahalla
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Originally posted by Staga
How do you know? From the vid it looked like they had plenty of time to talk and tinker about the situation before blasting guys brains to the wall.
Obviously we have been looking different vids.
looked like 4 to 5 seconds from the time he noticed the guy too the shots.
That is Not very long, unless of course, the guy might have a frag.
In which case,it was 4 second too long.
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blue... I don't think anyone here likes wars.... I don't like to be in wars even when they only involve 2 or three people.
sometimes tho there is no other solution.
lazs
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Originally posted by Flit
looked like 4 to 5 seconds from the time he noticed the guy too the shots.
That is Not very long, unless of course, the guy might have a frag.
In which case,it was 4 second too long.
No, he is 1 second too long. Frags go off in 3 seconds.
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Originally posted by YTSSGTD
Circumventing the language filter
LOL ! Let me guess.. you were a sniper in your previous life and now you're training with counterstrike how to become l33t warrior but forgot to take your meds ?
You're nothing but a bad joke.
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he is sandman posting under that handle to get around backing that munster guy in the last election.
lazs
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Personal attack/Circumventing the language filter
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Originally posted by lazs2
he is sandman posting under that handle to get around backing that munster guy in the last election.
lazs
And no this is my handle oscar.
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Inflammatory (he really is a Marine)
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Originally posted by lazs2
whithawk... a simple armband has been recognized as a "uniform" by most nations and courts.
It is simple... blame the moron terrorist strategist that came up with the "fake surrender" "fake death" strategy.
If they move when I come into a room and I can't see their hand... I would shoot.
lazs
Here we go agreeing again. That was a clearing operation. Everybody shoots everrything that moves in a clearing operation. I was surprised by the discussion I heard in the video, frankly.
I read that during one terrorist takedown in London a few years ago, one of the terrorist bodies had more than 100 bullet holes. Every SAS troop that went past it shot it--per standard procedure.
Kiddies, this is COMBAT, and people get killed. If it's a fair fight, things did NOT go according to plan. The idea is to kill the opposition and make them stop trying to kill the good guys.
If the guy was so innocent, why didn't he go home a few weeks ago and STAY THERE? There was no good reason to be in that shot up mosque with an AKM at hand, unless he had plans to fight. Since he was a combatant, then he put his own life at risk, and died because of his own decisions.
shubie
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From Matthew Heidt at Froogy Ruminations this guy sums it up as I see it.
"It’s a safety issue pure and simple. After assaulting through a target, put a security round in everybody’s head. Sorry al-Reuters, there’s no paddy wagon rolling around Fallujah picking up “prisoners” and offering them a hot cup a joe, falafel, and a blanket. There’s no time to dick around in the target, you clear the space, dump the chumps, and moveon.org. Are Corpsman expected to treat wounded terrorists? Negative. Hey libs, worried about the defense budget? Well, it would be waste, fraud, and abuse for a Corpsman to spend one man minute or a battle dressing on a terrorist, its much cheaper to just spend the $.02 on a 5.56mm FMJ.
By the way, terrorists who chop off civilian’s heads are not prisoners, they are carcasses.
UPDATE: Let me be very clear about this issue. I have looked around the web, and many people get this concept, but there are some stragglers. Here is your situation Marine. You just took fire from unlawful combatants shooting from a religious building attempting to use the sanctuary status of their position as protection. But you’re in Fallujah now, and the Marine Corps has decided that they’re not playing that game this time. That was Najaf. So you set the mosque on fire and you hose down the terrorists with small arms, launch some AT-4s (Rockets), some 40MM grenades into the building and things quiet down. So you run over there, and find some tangos wounded and pretending to be dead. You are aware that suicide martyrdom is like really popular with these kind of idiots, and like taking some Marines with them would be really cool. So you can either risk your life and your fireteam’s lives by having them cover you while you bend down and search a guy that you think is pretending to be dead for some reason. Also, you don’t know who or what is in the next room, and you’re already speaking english to each other and its loud because your hearing is poor from shooting people for several days. So you know that there are many other rooms to enter, and that if anyone is still alive in those rooms, they know that Americans are in the mosque. Meanwhile (3 seconds later), you still have this terrorist that was just shooting at you from a mosque playing possum. What do you do?
You double tap his head, and you go to the next room, that’s what.
What about the Geneva Conventions and all that Law of Land Warfare stuff? What about it. Without even addressing the issues at hand you first thought should be, “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.” Bear in mind that this is a perpetual mindset that is reinforced by experiences gained on a minute by minute basis. Secondly, you are fighting an unlawful combatant in a Sanctuary which is a double No No on his part. Third, tactically you are in no position to take “prisoners” because there are more rooms to search and clear, and the behavior of said terrorist indicates that he is up to no good. No good in Fallujah is a very large place and the low end of no good and the high end of no good are fundamentally the same... Marines get hurt or die. So there is no compelling reason for you to do anything but double tap this idiot and get on with the mission.
If you are a veteran then everything I have just written is self evident, if you are not a veteran than at least try to put yourself in the situation. Remember, in Fallujah there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow, there is only now. Right NOW. Have you ever lived in NOW for a week? It is not easy, and if you have never lived in NOW for longer than it takes to finish the big roller coaster at Six Flags, then shut your hole about putting Marines in jail for war crimes. Be advised, I am not talking to my readers, but if this post gets linked up, I want regular folks to get this message loud and clear."
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Originally posted by mosgood
I
Btw... why is it so easy for you to assume that the Marine is just a bloodthirsty animal that just wants to kill whatever he can get away with?
Why is it ok for you to assume that that is what I assumed, imbecile.
If the enmey warrior is faking death wiht an ak 47 next to his head, then he deserves to die a KIA.
The news, at the time of this post, was reporting, "unarmed, wounded, iraqi". I guess they forgot to update it to the "dirty bearded flea bitten rabid terrorist reaching for his gun'.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
The news, at the time of this post, was reporting, "unarmed, wounded, iraqi". I guess they forgot to update it to the "dirty bearded flea bitten rabid terrorist reaching for his gun'.
Dang that media. They very seldom report the truth.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Staga
LOL ! Let me guess.. you were a sniper in your previous life and now you're training with counterstrike how to become l33t warrior but forgot to take your meds ?
You're nothing but a bad joke.
Im a Marine gunner on a CH-46E I've been in for 9yrs and I have been in COMBAT. How about YOU.? BOY!!
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
"unarmed, wounded, iraqi". I guess they forgot to update it to the "dirty bearded flea bitten rabid terrorist reaching for his gun'.
Things is.
Did they know the Guy was unarmed before they killed him, or after.
Easy to say after they killed him he was unarmed.
If they had stuck their head in the room saw the wounded guy and backed off leaving him there the reporting undoubtedly would have read.
"It was unclear if the was armed or not".
In the end with the media its a no win situation.
Lets flip the coin over for a moment and say the guy was armed and pulled a gun and blew the guy away.
the media would be reporting on what a terrible and dangerous situation they were in.
Thats if it made the news at all.
And everyone here would be commenting on what an idiot the marine was
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Things is.
Did they know the Guy was unarmed before they killed him, or after.
Easy to say after they killed him he was unarmed.
If they had stuck their head in the room saw the wounded guy and backed off leaving him there the reporting undoubtedly would have read.
"It was unclear if the was armed or not".
In the end with the media its a no win situation.
Lets flip the coin over for a moment and say the guy was armed and pulled a gun and blew the guy away.
the media would be reporting on what a terrible and dangerous situation they were in.
Thats if it made the news at all.
And everyone here would be commenting on what an idiot the marine was
Well Said....
And just a a side note.....I saw the unedited version of that Video. Ya know..they report that the an unarmed man was killed...yet NEVER ever say anything about the OTHER wounded Insurgent that was taken care of lying there under a blanket.
Now It seems to me that the Marine in question probably made is decision based on a threat he percieved at that moment. The guy moved and he thought it a threat.
The guy behind him covered in a blanket talking was watched closely by 2 other marines. Yet , that guy wasn't shot or even given a hassle.
Leads me to believe that the one killed definatly was a threat and dealt with. Especially if there was an AK47 laying there. There certainly wasn't one laying by the other wounded guy.
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If I was there I would shoot everything, just to make sure it's dead. Don't like the job i'm doing, send me home, plz.
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Originally posted by YTSSGTD
Im a Marine gunner on a CH-46E I've been in for 9yrs and I have been in COMBAT. How about YOU.? BOY!!
Served my time in Finnish Army in eighties as combat engineer, half of the time in the woods, but no combat experience. However my guess is I could blow your copter to the next century quite easily; I liked plastic :)
"Boy"... :D
You might think how to behave when discussing in public; You seem to be a bit "special" when you call others as "boys" and use... err... what the heck is oscar ?
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<----saunters by draggin a lawn chair...
who's got th beer?:)
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Originally posted by RedTop
Dang that media. They very seldom report the truth.:rolleyes:
Absolutely. As they are not allowed to by the govt. The government is not confident in your ability to make the decision whether this war is justified to continue, endlessly, creating huge, possibly unrecoverable debt for the USA. '
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Absolutely. As they are not allowed to by the govt. The government is not confident in your ability to make the decision whether this war is justified to continue, endlessly, creating huge, possibly unrecoverable debt for the USA. '
:rofl