Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Octavius on November 21, 2004, 06:59:01 PM
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News broke in a little while ago during football. They're saying 5 hunters were killed and it was not an accident.
Can't find any more info yet.
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Wisconsin isn't weed growing country is it? Could be PETA!
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I knew there would be trouble when they passed the Deer-Carry law.
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It's just the opening moves of our invasion force.
Seriously though, no information at all yet?
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5 killed 3 wounded. Some other Hunters might be missing. The story doesnt say if they shot back though.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5097995.html
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Anyone know what an "automative assault weaspon" (sic) is?
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Ford Pinto?
(http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1977/09/fire.jpeg)
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Originally posted by jigsaw
Anyone know what an "automative assault weaspon" (sic) is?
:rofl I read that too
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Anyone know what an "automative assault weaspon" (sic) is?
Soccer mom in an SUV with a cellphone in one hand, applying makeup with the other.
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Originally posted by pugg666
Soccer mom in an SUV with a cellphone in one hand, applying makeup with the other.
While yelling at her 3 kids that won't listen to her because she allways wanted to be sensative to their needs.
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What, weren't they in season?
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Another story (http://www.jsonline.com/) main headline
Was a dispute over a tree stand. The shooter was from the Twin Cities and was caught at the county line later on. Local news station said it was an AR15 assault rifle.
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Over a tree stand, sounds like something that happens in the city during a snowstorm over a parking space. I guess the country and city are not too different after all, eh?
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Heh, where do more than half these hunters come from? :D
They just bring the parking spaces with'em ;)
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Wasn't a deer with an AK in a balaclava was it?
Tronsky
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It's MY tree stand!
No Walter, it's OUR tree stand.
It's MY tree stand!
No Walter, it's OUR tree stand.
It's MY tree stand!
No Walter, it's OUR tree stand.
It's MY tree stand!
No Walter, it's OUR tree stand.
It's MY tree stand!
No Walter, it's OUR tree stand.
It's MY tree stand!
No Walter, it's OUR tree stand.
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They should ban deers.
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packers season tickets available.
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It's because those bleeding heart liberals took their grenade launcher away, or they would have took that zombie out!
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Five people being shot dead might be a tragedy to their families, but you guys make it all sound really really funny. You need to send this thread to the families of the deceased. I'll bet they'll laugh too.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Five people being shot dead might be a tragedy to their families, but you guys make it all sound really really funny. You need to send this thread to the families of the deceased. I'll bet they'll laugh too.
Not funny at all, but from what I hear, gallows humor is a way to deal with it. You see it all too often these days, senseless acts of violence. Car cuts another off, someone dead, someone takes someone else's parking space, someone dead, someone looks at someone else the wrong way, someone dead, someone on someone else's tree stand, 5 dead.
It's like human life has no value anymore. I can't imagine taking someone else's life away, I mean, if I had to in a defensive situation to protect my family, I guess I would have to, but I still wouldn't feel good about it. The way it happens today, it just boggles my mind, I don't understand, it makes no sense. I just don't get it.
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Teh internets has made me desensitized. I could hardly give a flying **** about these guys. If I'm not supposed to be concerned about guys running around with guns, then don't expect me to get all teary eyed when they go berzerk.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Five people being shot dead might be a tragedy to their families, but you guys make it all sound really really funny. You need to send this thread to the families of the deceased. I'll bet they'll laugh too.
Racist
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Do deers really need assaulting? Hardly sporting, what, what!
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Racist
:lol
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Originally posted by Airhead
Five people being shot dead might be a tragedy to their families, but you guys make it all sound really really funny. You need to send this thread to the families of the deceased. I'll bet they'll laugh too.
Agreed. Its tragic. Father and Daughter were members of the dead.
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5 Killed, 3 Hurt in Wis. Hunting Dispute
2 hours, 16 minutes ago U.S. National - AP
By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer
BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter shot and killed five people and injured three others in northwestern Wisconsin following a dispute about a tree stand during the hunt's opening weekend, authorities said.
The 36-year-old alleged gunman, who lives in the Minneapolis area, was arrested Sunday afternoon, Sawyer County sheriff's officials said. Jake Hodgkinson, a deputy at the county jail, identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no additional details.
The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.
It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.
Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said.
The dead included four males — including a teenage boy — and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.
All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.
"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.
Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.
Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.
The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said. When he emerged, a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back, given to police by a victim, Zeigle said.
The man was out of bullets and was arrested, Zeigle said.
One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.
Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. After they got word of the shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.
"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."
It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said. "We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."
"Charlie didn't get much USO. He was dug in too deep or moving too fast. His idea of great R&R was cold rice and a little rat meat. He had only two ways home: death, or victory."
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All I made fun of was a stupid reporter who can't spell for chit.
Originally posted by Airhead
You need to send this thread to the families of the deceased. I'll bet they'll laugh too.
Step up or shut up. Send it to them or get off your soapbox.
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Originally posted by Nash
Teh internets has made me desensitized. I could hardly give a flying **** about these guys. If I'm not supposed to be concerned about guys running around with guns, then don't expect me to get all teary eyed when they go berzerk.
I'm with Nash on this one.
I do feel badly that people were hurt and killed...but an argument over a tree stand??!!..please. 5 dead as a result?
Guns don't kill people...umm...hunters...errr ...tree stands do. Yea...whatever.:rolleyes:
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Ok.. there was no assualt rifle only hunting rifles. A person went crzy.
you can't stop crazy people from killing if they decide too. Would you rather he waited and drove his Lincoln or pickup through a school yard?
I figure if guns save a percent or two of the 1.5-3 million people crimes they stop that are potentialy deadly... we are still ahead...
even nashs hero kerrie (the loser) doesn't want to ban hunting.
lazs
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Pioneer Press
METEOR TOWNSHIP, Wis. — Five people were fatally shot and three others seriously wounded around noon Sunday by a deer hunter from St. Paul after he was told to leave a deer stand on private land near Birchwood, a small community in northwest Wisconsin, Sawyer County authorities said.
The suspect, Chai Vang, was arrested about 5 p.m., Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said.
When Vang was arrested, he was carrying a high-powered SKS assault rifle and was out of ammunition, Zeigle said.
An SKS is an assault rifle, isn't it, Laz?
But I agree with Laz. This incident is not about assault rifles or the dangers of hunters. The victims were a rural group of family/friends who had been hunting in the area for years. The suspect is apparently a SE Asian immigrant from the nearest urban area, who was on private land without permission. Its hard not to draw your own conclusions, but I'll wait for more information on the incident and the background of the suspect.
Sixpence, I'm with you when you decry the loss of value of human life, sadly we don't need to look much further than many of the responses in this thread to see it.
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Originally posted by Nash
Teh internets has made me desensitized. I could hardly give a flying **** about these guys. If I'm not supposed to be concerned about guys running around with guns, then don't expect me to get all teary eyed when they go berzerk.
What's tragic is there's so much potential for GREAT lines-
"What's the bag limit on Cheeseheads?" or
"Give an Asian immigrent a gun and they'll shoot everything in the woods"
but instead we get
"Wasn't a deer with an AK in a balaclava was it?" and
"I knew there would be trouble when they passed the Deer-Carry law." (Actually that one is funny, I just had to read it twice.)
And Nash, I know you don't care about these guys cause you're a Canadian and you hate America.
Everybody hates America.
Beatle called us fat even.
Give us your WMD or we will destroy you...What? No WMD?? Tough luck for YOU, Canada!!
:mad:
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another reason to do your hunting in the meat section of your local grocery store
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hehe Airhead. :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
another reason to do your hunting in the meat section of your local grocery store
Its evident you don't know that hunting is not just about meat and horns. :rolleyes:
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what goes around comes around
the hunters got hunted
i guess they know now it´s not funny to be hunted
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its evident you don't know that hunting is not just about meat and horns.
That's right! There's often a lot of drinking involved too.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
what goes around comes around
the hunters got hunted
i guess they know now it´s not funny to be hunted
Deer tend to starve to death on a 5 year cycle due to over breeding, and the lack of sufficient food to feed them all.
Ignoring your obvious trolling style post above, do you think its better to harvest these deer (some of which their meat will populate food banks for the needy) or to simply let them starve to death in an unmerciful way?
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Originally posted by Airhead
Five people being shot dead might be a tragedy to their families, but you guys make it all sound really really funny. You need to send this thread to the families of the deceased. I'll bet they'll laugh too.
The two most abundant things in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. I see you continue to choose the latter.
Karaya
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Originally posted by myelo
That's right! There's often a lot of drinking involved too.
That goes for all sports ;)
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Deer tend to starve to death on a 5 year cycle due to over breeding, and the lack of sufficient food to feed them all.
first murder it´s natural enemy i guess bears and wulfs
than blame the deer and make it big entertainment to kill em
really since when does nature need men to survive
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
really since when does nature need men to survive
Since men started affecting the environment.
In this case, we have diminished the population of many of the deer’s natural predators, mostly through alteration of their habitat. Thus the deer population would be dangerously out of control without hunting.
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I wonder if he imigrated from Vietnam.
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Originally posted by Pongo
I wonder if he imigrated from Vietnam.
Are you drawing a straw horse for "revenge for my fathers death in Vietnam"?
I'm guessing it will be determined that this guy is just a nutcase who feels similiar to BUG332, "How does it feel to be hunted?"
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Guns dont kill people, deer kill people.
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St. Paul has a very large Hmong population. The Hmong people have a very interesting history with the US government. I cant say for sure this shooter was Hmong, but the odds are very likely.
Anton
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The two most abundant things in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. I see you continue to choose the latter.
Karaya
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :D :lol :rofl
Man, you are so funny! You are just FULL of the one liners!!
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :rofl
You go, boy- You are on FIRE!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl
:aok
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Originally posted by oboe
Sixpence, I'm with you when you decry the loss of value of human life, sadly we don't need to look much further than many of the responses in this thread to see it.
Well, like I said, you see gallows humor everywhere. I was 20 years old when the first space shuttle accident happened, and it wasnt 3 days before I heard the first joke, and i'll admit, I repeated them. My point is in how quick and casually someone will pull the trigger on someone else without conscience
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" When Vang was arrested, he was carrying a high-powered SKS assault rifle and was out of ammunition, Zeigle said.
An SKS is an assault rifle, isn't it, Laz? "
actually.... no. Not only is an sks not a real assault rifle but it isn't even considered one under any weenie ban ever made.. and.... an sks is not considered to to be a high powered rifle by any standards.
oh... how did the deer survive before hunters? they simply bred to the point that they overpopulated an area and then slowly starved to death or died of disease or were ripped apart by predators.
lazs
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I don't think its funny. Its one thing to shoot in an arguement, but its another to HUNT the rest of the guys down to KILL THEM.
I'm sure if they showed names and pictures everyone would be saying something different.
Yes its something trivial like a tree stand, but it got blown way out of proportion. A father and daughter are dead either way. This is a few days before Thanksgiving for goodness sake.
Name 5 of your friends or family you're close with and say goodbye to them because someone got into an arguement over a parking spot or a movie seat. In today's world, that will happen.
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Originally posted by RTSigma
Yes its something trivial like a tree stand, but it got blown way out of proportion.
Ya don't say....
:D
You condemn the jokes, and end up saying the funniest thing in the entire thread. Holy, did that ever crack me up.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Are you drawing a straw horse for "revenge for my fathers death in Vietnam"?
I'm guessing it will be determined that this guy is just a nutcase who feels similiar to BUG332, "How does it feel to be hunted?"
lol
You dont know what straw man means do you..admit it.
But I do think this guy should have his sentence added to for all the deer that will starve to death because there are 5 fewer hunters to save them.
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Originally posted by Nash
Teh internets has made me desensitized. I could hardly give a flying **** about these guys. If I'm not supposed to be concerned about guys running around with guns, then don't expect me to get all teary eyed when they go berzerk.
So the fact that they wander around the woods, engaged in a legal activity, somehow makes their murders less less tragic? I hardly think that the man who did the killing was not one of them. His being in the same place, at the same time, says nothing about his mental state.
This is pretty upsetting, Nash. You've become markedly meaner since the election.
I hope I'm just misinterpreting you.
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ROOOAAAAAR!!!!
heh....
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Originally posted by RTSigma
Yes its something trivial like a tree stand, but it got blown way out of proportion."
How do you know? It may have been one heck of a spot.
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Originally posted by Nash
ROOOAAAAAR!!!!
heh....
Big meanie.
Hey! I'm a senior member!
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Even when the whole human race dies
nature will contineu without it
where unimportant to it
:)
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To be honest, Neubob, my post was really only a way for me to try and get the word "berzerk" into a post. Not much else involved, really.
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so.... if this happened in canada would it be enough to get firearms banned like in england and australia?
This is an extremely rare event in a country with 300,000,000 people... oops... beetle will come unglued... In a country of 295,467,000 people....
you can't get rid of all the nuts... sometimes they aren't even from here.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
you can't get rid of all the nuts... sometimes they aren't even from here.
Ahhh.... but the nuts gravitate towards you... and that's really the whole underlying point. Why is America so attractive to nuts? See what I'm gettin' at?
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Originally posted by Nash
Ahhh.... but the nuts gravitate towards you... and that's really the whole underlying point. Why is America so attractive to nuts? See what I'm gettin' at?
So nuts are attracted to wealth?
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am i the only one who finds something fishy about the setup?
a visible minority member from a big city (gang, anyone?) goes hunting, with a assault rifle, then just happens to get mad enough to kill 5 people over a tree stand, on their, presumably well marked, property?
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wait - I see what yer getting at Vort....
THUG LIFE!
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Correct...ASIAN thugs :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Curval
Correct...ASIAN thugs :rolleyes:
That would be "Phug life".
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Originally posted by lazs2
so.... if this happened in canada would it be enough to get firearms banned like in england and australia?
This is an extremely rare event in a country with 300,000,000 people... oops... beetle will come unglued... In a country of 295,467,000 people....
you can't get rid of all the nuts... sometimes they aren't even from here.
lazs
If this happened in Canada it would not result in firearms being banned. I don't see what your overall problem with Canada is, it seems that in a lot of your posts you have to try and compare everything in the US to what is or has happened in Canada. Where you involved in some sort of horrific maple syrup accident when you were young?
And as being a "extremely rare" event,
2001, United States
Firearm Deaths
Deaths / Population
29,573 / 285,317,572
http://webapp.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe
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Originally posted by Pongo
lol
You dont know what straw man means do you..admit it.
I don't know what a straw man means, you're right....;)
http://home.t-online.de/home/toni.goeller/idiom_wm/id575.htm
straw horse:
an idea to be discussed and refined, a draft proposal or motion:
"I have an idea that may work - kind of a straw horse. I'll tell you about it and we can discuss its potential."
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ripper... I would say that mass murder is extremely rare here considering the population. I don't know where you are getting your figures but we are 295 million people with only about 12,000 firearms murders a year.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
ripper... I would say that mass murder is extremely rare here considering the population. I don't know where you are getting your figures but we are 295 million people with only about 12,000 firearms murders a year.
lazs
True mas murders are rare in most cultures, I was referring to firearms deaths. The link I post is busted but it should have gone to the CDC, and the umbers I posted were for 2001. I'll see if I can find a working link
edit... I followed some links in this site
http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
Regardless it is a criminal act that some will try to use for political gain and to advance thier cause whether it is gun contro. immigrationl or animal rights. Place the blame where it belongs..the shooter....
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Ding.
I had certainly never heard of a straw horse.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Ding.
I had certainly never heard of a straw horse.
It's what a straw man rides......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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Originally posted by Pongo
Ding.
I had certainly never heard of a straw horse.
Its probably a language barrier between the US and Canada. :lol
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ripper.... FBI stats for 2003 are the most recent... they show that there were 14,408 total homicides in the U.S. and of those about 67% were commited with firearms or, about 9,638
lazs
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Ok.. there was no assualt rifle only hunting rifles. A person went crzy.
The murderer used an SKS(according to reports I read). This isn't a hunting rifle. It's not really considered an assault rifle either, is it? Pretty much just an infantry rifle? I own a russian SKS... never considered it an assault rifle. Clue me in what it is correctly considered, please Lazs.
TY
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I would call it a medium powered semi auto carbine. People hunt with em.. they are perfectly legal to do so even tho they are perhaps a bit underpowered and inaccurate.
lazs
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ripper.... FBI stats for 2003 are the most recent... they show that there were 14,408 total homicides in the U.S.
No, the are the murders for which the FBI has supplemental homicide reports (SHR)
According to the FBI:
"There were 16,503 criminal homicides in the United States during 2003."
"During 2003, law enforcement agencies contributing data to the UCR Program submitted Supplementary Homicide Reports (SHRs) for 14,408 homicides."
and of those about 67% were commited with firearms or, about 9,638
9,638 out of the 14,408 murders for which SHRs were filled out.
If the 2,095 murders for which SHRs were not filled out showed the same percentage, the actual figure would be just over 11,000 firearms murders in 2003.
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Its that hip-hop bling bling wannabe gangsta music that did this....
THUGLIFE!!!!
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there were only the 14,408 reported homicides and 9,638 were firearms realted. If they have no report of a homicide then how do they know there was one?
even so... that is a far cry from 29,000
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
...even tho they are perhaps a bit underpowered and inaccurate.
lazs
I would say this case proves that to be incorrect!:eek:
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there were only the 14,408 reported homicides and 9,638 were firearms realted. If they have no report of a homicide then how do they know there was one?
No, there were 14,408 homicides for which they received supplemental reports.
The FBI crime report is quite specific on how many murders there were:
"There were 16,503 criminal homicides in the United States during 2003."
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/pdf/03sec2.pdf
It's the first line of text under the "Murder" section.
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Originally posted by Ripper29
Place the blame where it belongs..the shooter....
Bingo.
But, I would be in favor of following this up the chain a few more links though too - perhaps this fellow's hunting license or even firearm purchase should be looked at. Where and how did he acquire the rifle? What is his hunting background? I'm interested to see if there's any problems in his past that might indicate he was a risk.
Minnesota (St Paul in particular) has one of the largest Hmong populations in the nation, and we aren't doing a very good job of assimilating/integrating them into the larger society.
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Originally posted by Pongo
lol
But I do think this guy should have his sentence added to for all the deer that will starve to death because there are 5 fewer hunters to save them.
:lol
That's the best line I've heard.......
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Nash, et al... many times I have disagreed with your views on controversial topics on these boards, but many times you have made sense. This is not one of those times. The men, boy, and woman who died all had family and relatives who loved them. You're sneering disrespect for those affected by this tragedy deprives you of any right to the respect of the more mature members of the these bbs.
Bug,
Explain to me, if you can, how the human hunting of deer violates ANY law of nature. If you eat meat, but don't kill it yourself, you have a surrogate to do your killing for you. If you consumed that meat for any purpose other than to fulfill basic bodily needs, i.e. enjoyment, you are a hypocrite.
As a species, we did not develop in a vacuum. Human ancestors have hunted other animals for millions of years. We have always been, and will always be, part of nature. Branding hunting as cruel is an attempt to graft human "morality" onto an amoral natural system. The killing of a wildebeest by a lion may be "cruel" when seen in the context of human "sensitivity" but it is not evil. It is a necessary part of the natural system.
You may be content to be merely a "spectator" of nature. I, however, want to be a participant.
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lol.... "sneering disrespect." Who woulda thunk it?
Shuckins, try some consistency and call it out every time you see sneering disrespect for the dead. Not just when I do it, but every time it happens. Mmmmkay great thanks.
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Wow! Awe-inspiring reply Nash! You certainly put me in my place with flawless logic and spot-on, to the point, commentary. I'd better shut up before you devastate me with a "Sez you."
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Almost forgot. When you call people out on their sneering disrespect for the dead, could you do it with the same sense of drama? I was really feeling that whole poetic moment there.
I almost wanted to pick up a hockey stick and bash whoever showed such disrespect until I remembered it was me. That's how powerful it was.
K? That would be choice. Thanks.
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Your past statements to the contrary, you don't really empathize with the sufferings of your fellow man, especially if the victims are wearing blaze-orange and there is a pc point to be made.
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People hunt with em.. they are perfectly legal to do so even tho they are perhaps a bit underpowered and inaccurate.
Ya, that's what came to mind when the SKS was mentioned. I enjoy plinking w/ mine, Nuke and I go out in the desert and blast assorted fruit/vegggies we bring as targets, but I don't really see it as much more effective than a good brush gun. I guess it would work if you could get close enough.... then again just about anything would.
Thanks for the info.
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Look, lets not fight tonight hon, I've got a headache.
Really, in all honesty, it's tragic what happened, okay? But like... if ya live by the sword and all that...
Now.... we get it shoved down our throats daily here that guns are good and this statistic and that statistic and whatever... Fine. But when folks with guns shoot other folks with guns, I'm gonna side with lazs and say this was a freak accident or something and not get too worried about it.
Rock climbers die when they fall. Surfers die when they get eaten by sharks. Now if ya wana run around in the woods with guns surrounded by complete strangers all runin' around in the woods with guns, have at er. To me, it's a risk same as anything else.
If I got worked up over every time someone died doing what they do, I wouldn't be able to move.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
It's because those bleeding heart liberals took their grenade launcher away, or they would have took that zombie out!
Rap Music led em to it. Them boyz got dissed, so they put a cap in them mofo's who high posted on their deer blind N chit.
:mad:
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Nash,
Now THAT was a rational response. I don't agree with its basic premise...but at least it wasn't insensitive.
Look...I've been hunting all my life. I'm also a good bit older than you. During those years I cannot ever remember a similar incident of mass murder taking place. There has, indeed, been the occasional accident. However, YOU are in more danger going for a drive down the interstate than I am in the deer woods.
Let me dispell a few stereotypes. All hunter are not drunks. The vast majority do not go into the woods drunk. Many hunt because they come from families which have hunted for several generations. My own grandparents started their family during the Great Depression. They hunted to fill the larder and for recreation. They loved their children and relatives, worked hard, and practiced generosity toward their fellow man. I was raised by that generation. Because of that upbringing, I respect but do not fear firearms. I fear only the irrational actions of nut cases, whether they are armed with a gun, car, or gasoline bomb. That type will always find a way to kill.
In all likelihood, although I cannot be certain, the people who died in this recent tragic event, were also decent, average people. Not politically correct caricatures.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Ya gotta understand, too, that when I made the comment about hunters going berzerk over a tree stand, the news had just broke, the thread was fresh, and for all I or anybody knew at the time... like, 8 people just started going nuts shooting at eachother a la OK Coral.
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Here's a picture of some OK Coral.
(http://www.toejamet.com/coralisland/french/images/coral.jpg)
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Roger that, Nash...understood.
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spelling mistake? who, me? :)
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That ain't OK, that is outstanding coral.
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I know a local potato farmer who is out standing in his field.
(sorry)
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d'Oh!
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Sux that those guys died... I have property in Northern Wisconsin... guess I should check to see how close it is.... don't feel like it rght now, I have to poop.
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Found some more info that made it hit closer to home. I just got an email from a squaddie a bit ago.
RTJonnyV had friends and family involved in the shooting.
My prayers are out to him and his families and friends of those who were slain.
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As far as the SKS goes, the 7.62X39 cartridge it uses is neither as powerful nor as accurate as the 30-30 Winchester, probably the most common and popular cartridge used in the U.S. for hunting, especially deer hunting.
On the other hand, to kill a human sized target, you merely need to be able to shoot about an 8" group at 100 yards. Most SKS rifles are capable fo doing so. That's usually good enough for deer as well. However, an SKS is a very poor choice for hunting use.
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SKS was precursor to AK..
SKS ..is an assualt rifle ..when fully AUTO...
its what they used .."the COMmies" in North Korea..
It is actaully banned in California..
its a fun rifle to shoot...but very old
much much bettr choices for killing peopl e,,and deer..but it defntly works..and you can buy them for under 150$
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For the NRA as long as the world knows that it wasn't the guns fault.
...-Gixer
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The NRA has done more for a gun safe/educated America then any other organization.
Moronic comments like that will not be let slid by. Dont be a dolt when you talk about NRA.
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UPDATE: A sixth hunter has now died from his injuries.
I don't think its fair to blame the SKS. Put a more traditional bolt-action hunting rifle in that Hmong's hands and there still would've been fatalities, although with a slower rate of fire, its possible some may have been able to escape.
Don't blame the hunting culture either. Lots of hunters I know have a great deal of respect for life and knowledge of the natural environment. I have admiration for someone who knows what it is to go out in the wild and kill the meat they will eat. Compare that to someone who just buys it from the grocery store without a thought to where it comes form or how it got there. Odds are, the animal that was taken by the hunter had a much better life while it lived than the animal raised in a small pen and forcefed antibiotics and growth hormones until it was fat enough to be slaughtered.
More information is coming to light about this crazy Laotian, however. From a Pioneer Press article Minneapolis police said they arrested Vang on Christmas Eve 2001 after he waved a gun and threatened to kill his wife. No charge was brought because she didn’t cooperate with authorities, spokesman Ron Reier said. St. Paul police say they were called to Vang’s house twice in the past year on domestic violence calls, but both were resolved without incident and no police reports were filed.
Is this really the kind of guy we want to sell weapons, ammunition, and issue hunting licenses to? Laz?
The Hmong immigration is a whole 'nuther issue - a very sore spot with lots of people and rightly so.
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Even a single shot rifle would have been capable of killing all those guys. allmost any centerfire rifle you can name is more powerful than the 7.62 x 39 sks round but... it is still allmost twice as powerful as the most powerful handguns. slightly less accurate than a lot of handguns at 100 yards. Most bolt, pump or lever action guns can get off a lot of shots very quickly. a good man with a single shot can get off dozens of shots a minute.
even a shotgun would have been just as deadly.
Nash is wrong... this wasn't a case of "living by the sword" or a hunting accident. least ways, no more than say..... a man who was rock climbing gets to the top and starts cutting all the ropes of the other climbers plunging them to their deaths because he was up there first or felt it was his rock.
The NRA promotes hunter and firearm safety and the fact that they are no longer allowed to do an effective job in schools and other places is probly the cause of a lot of trajedy.
lazs
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Oboe,
Minnesota needs to adopt the law that many states have regarding domestic dispute. When police are called, they are REQUIRED to make an arrest of one or both parties involved, and the prosecuting attorney presses charges, otherwise women just take the abuse and don't do nothing about it.
Oboe, do you know where Forest Lake is? That's where I grew up, on a farm about 12 miles outside of town, until I was 18 and moved to WA state.
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oboe... if the guy was waving a gtun around and threatening peoples lives then he was commiting a gun crime in my opinion. I would not need a gun to kill a woman as an example
I have often said tho that I do not believe that unsupervised children or insane people should be allowed to have guns. About half of the insane mass murderers that do shootings do so with a legaly held firearm. I would close this loophole. I would also not allow crazy people to drive cars or own dangerous power tools.
in the case of immigration... it is often difficult to tell what is "insane" behavoir or just cultural.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
in the case of immigration... it is often difficult to tell what is "insane" behavoir or just cultural.
:rofl
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I guess what bothers me is that some will say that "since we weed out all the potentialy crazy people we need to remove everything from society that a crazy person might easily use to cause harm to others."
Some will say that it is a certain type of firearm that caused the trajedy... Some will blame hunting... all these people will have an agenda that has nothing to do with the situation at hand.
lazs
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nash... you would disagree? you would find all cultural (except religion I presume) behavior to be considered sane in all other cultures? circumcising women? canibalism? beating wives or killing them with impunity? hunting? worshipping cows? slavery?
lazs
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I think that was just a really funny thing to say. I laughed... but don't have much time atm to figure why.
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Rip- yep, I know Forest Lake - a beautiful area. Was just there this summer for a parade my oldest son's band was marching in. In college, I was crazy about Ann Sargent, a Landscape Architecture student and Forest Lake native I met at the U in '79 or so. Lost track of her though, and I doubt she'd remember me.
I'm originally from S Minnesota, near the Iowa border. Grew up in a small town but you're never far from agriculture down there.
Vang had already been arrested for threatening is wife with a gun - if a conviction had resulted, would that have been enough to keep him from owning firearms and obtaining a Wisconsin hunting license? I assume without a conviction, the arrest alone is nothing.
Laz- I agree with what you are saying and think your rock climbing example is an apt one. I don't understand the relevance of your statement about being able to kill a woman without a gun, but assume it has something to do with the separation of guns from violence. On that I would also probably agree with you, but I just wasn't able to follow the logic of your example.
I don't see how anyone can rationally place blame on the weapon (even if an SKS is construed as a high-powered assault-type rifle, as it is being reported in the press here) or the hunting culture. Clearly this was a case of a person who 'snapped' into violent anti-social behavior, one who had given multiple indications previously that he could be a problem. I do think it likely that the Hmong community will be scapegoated somewhat, and although it maybe unfair I welcome the scrutiny this may bring on the whole immigration issue, because there are alot of problems not being dealt with right now.
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oboe... my example with the woman is that you don't need a firearm to beat a woman to death if her death is what you desire... waving the gun around is even more bizzare imo. The man using a firearm to threaten someone that would be helpless against hin in any case would indicate to me that he has a problem understanding firearms rights.
lazs
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from the same article.
"“I still don’t believe it,” the suspect’s brother, Sang Vang, said. “He is one of the nicest persons. ... Maybe something provoked him or something. He is a reasonable person.”
"
ya.. waving a gun at his wife. repeated domestic calls. reasonable.
So these guys are Loatians that got to imigrate becuase they fought beside the US in the 70s or something?
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pongo... in some cultures a reasonable and "nice" man is normal if he waves guns around and smacks his wife around all the time.
lazs
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Originally posted by Sixpence
You see it all too often these days, senseless acts of violence. Car cuts another off, someone dead, someone takes someone else's parking space, someone dead, someone looks at someone else the wrong way, someone dead, someone on someone else's tree stand, 5 dead.
It's like human life has no value anymore. . . . .
. . . .
I just don't get it.
You get it alright. Human life has (never had) no value. Its all about individuals and property. In some countries more than others, but thats just due to sircumstances. Give humans a chance and they will kill in an instant in the name of relegion, property, because they are better than others, because they are the right color, because 'they were following orders', because of anything really.
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Originally posted by lazs2
pongo... in some cultures a reasonable and "nice" man is normal if he waves guns around and smacks his wife around all the time.
lazs
What about civil? Are these same men considered "civil" to their women?
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curval... as an individual and a member of my culture.... I would say no. I do not wave guns at women nor do I hit them. I don't believe that it is considered normal behavior in the U.S.
lazs
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Okay, fair enough...but your moral high ground disappears as soon as you start to suggest ending women's sufferage. You do realise that right?
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I've been a deer hunter for 34 years, and at times we used to have 20-22 people in our groups. We hunted in Northern Missouri and I cannot recall one time anyone left the camp without their firearm. The report I heard was that only one person had a gun.....something just isn't right with the whole story.
and the sad part is 6 of 8 took the story to their grave. I also own an SKS...with open sights I can group all 33/66 rounds in a 6 inch circle at 100 yards....but this weapon is not for deer hunting. My 30-30....ought 6....or 35 marlin are for deer.
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curval..... I claim no moral high ground.
I do claim that taking someones life unjustly or taking their liberty or maiming them or removing their right/ability to prevent those things from happening to them is against basic human rights.
lazs
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There are lots of problems integrating/assimilating the Hmong into our society. I've heard it before, and the evidence in this case supports it - they have little regard for private property. Also, they 'discipline' their children with a level of violence that we would easily term child abuse. It's the norm for their culture.
I have now heard Vang's side of the story; he says as he was leaving they group shouted racial slurs at him, and fired a shot into the ground near him. That's when he turned and opened fire.
The story goes he wounded one man, who called for help on his walkie talkie. Two hunters from the deer cabin came out to help in a 4wheeler and Vang shot them dead. I'm not sure how may were in the group total, but he emptied a 20-shot clip chasing them around and shooting.
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Originally posted by lazs2
pongo... in some cultures a reasonable and "nice" man is normal if he waves guns around and smacks his wife around all the time.
lazs
Of course, Americans never wave gunsand beat their wives...:rolleyes:
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red tail.... of course there are those who do... we are a very populous nation. I did not at any time say that it didn't happen here.
What I said was that in some cultures it was considered nice and reasonable to do so... I don't think that is the case in the U.S.
I do think the guy is smart to play the race card tho even tho it is a pretty weak reason for his rampage. still.... I'ts all he's got at this point.
anb it certainly looks like he was attempting to eliminate any witnesses to what really happened. People running away and possibly unarmed do not seem to be a legitimate threat.
lazs
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Originally posted by oboe
I have now heard Vang's side of the story; he says as he was leaving they group shouted racial slurs at him, and fired a shot into the ground near him. That's when he turned and opened fire.
Shouldn't have been on their property, and calling someone names doesn't give reason to shoot people. if a shot was fired near him, the detectives will discover that.
If you're gonna fire at somebody, warning shots are, apparently, a waste of ammo.
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Originally posted by Pongo
So these guys are Loatians that got to imigrate becuase they fought beside the US in the 70s or something?
Yep. The Milwaukee area, like the Twin Cities, has a decent population of Hmong and other groups immigrated here from that 'agreement.' I believe another 3,000 some are being / will be relocated to the area soon.
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Originally posted by oboe
An SKS is an assault rifle, isn't it, Laz?
I didn't look to see if Lazs answered, but no, the SKS is NOT an assault rifle. It lacks the characteristics used to define assault rifles.
Detachable magazine.
Separate pistol grip.
The SKS has a 10 round fixed magazine that must be loaded through the receiver with the bolt locked open. It has a conventional stock. I have 3 of them.
Since it is inexpensive and reliable and the cartridge has ballistics comparable to the venerable 30-30 round, it has gained acceptance for hunting medium size game. When used for hunting, most, if not all states require the magazine to be modified to limit capacity to 5 rounds.
Apparently, this psycho Laosian should have been disarmed when he was arrested several years before. He threatened his wife with a gun. But, you can blame his wife because she refused to cooperate with the Police and he walked.
My regards,
Widewing
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I honestly think this guy should get either life or the death penalty.
6 People. Over a tree stand and property.
the 6th one died from wounds and I can bet it wasn't pretty nor painless.
Meanwhile Vang was able to prove what? And you think pulling the race card will save him? If it does, I can gurantee he'll have his spot in hell.
It sickens me to know that this is going to be huge case that will either have justice or the biggest scandal in history. Mental problems abound he tracked and killed people in the forest who were probably unarmed and died alone or in pain.
Rot in hell Vang, don't care what you are, where you're from, but that kind of stuff doesn't fly here in America.
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Originally posted by oboe
The story goes he wounded one man, who called for help on his walkie talkie. Two hunters from the deer cabin came out to help in a 4wheeler and Vang shot them dead. I'm not sure how may were in the group total, but he emptied a 20-shot clip chasing them around and shooting.
The SKS has a 10 round fixed magazine, not a 20 round "clip". Even the term "clip" is incorrect. A clip refers to a stripper clip. These are used to load the magazine.
Some rare Norinco SKSs have a 15 round fixed magazine. There are 30 round fixed magazines available that can be mounted, but they are heavy and badly unbalance the already heavy rifle. Either way, if you show up to go hunting with a large capacity magazine, the rangers will be fitting you for handcuffs.
By the way, if some guys think the 7.62x39 round is borderline for deer hunting, it really isn't as it depends on the bullet almost as much as velocity. Many years ago I hand loaded 100 rounds of .357 mag for a friend who hunted with a rebarreled Winchester 1892 lever gun. Out of a 20" barrel, these chronographed between 2,150 and 2,200 fps for 135 grain and 1,800 to 1,850 for 158 grain bullets. Either will drop a buck at 50 yards. I seem recall the load was 21 grains of W296, but my memory could be faulty. Lazs would know if the powder sounds right, he reloads. I have the old chrono print-out, but misplaced the load chart I used.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hell, I've hunted with a 410 and slugs. If it shoots, it will kill deer. The guy most likely had only the SKS for hunting. He lost his temper, 6 are dead. If Wisconsin has a death penalty (Doubt it, very liberal, and incidently one of the highest taxed states) he'll cook.
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(http://www.simonov.net/images/custom/parked.jpg)
Had to look one up myself to see.
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.410 and 20 gauge with slugs, and a 12 gauge with buckshot. If you are hunting Pine thickets, you need something that just blasts through the little limbs, and you won't be far away when you see it.
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Originally posted by Lizking
.410 and 20 gauge with slugs, and a 12 gauge with buckshot. If you are hunting Pine thickets, you need something that just blasts through the little limbs, and you won't be far away when you see it.
Exactly. And a good deer stand gets the game closer.
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Originally posted by Curval
Okay, fair enough...but your moral high ground disappears as soon as you start to suggest ending women's sufferage. You do realise that right?
It should be ended. Haven't women suffered enough? We should also end the use of dihydrogen mono-oxide before it gets out of control.
Originally posted by lazs2
The man using a firearm to threaten someone that would be helpless against hin in any case would indicate to me that he has a problem understanding firearms rights.
Fiream rights heck. I'd say it's a problem understanding sanity.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Give humans a chance and they will kill in an instant in the name of relegion, property, because they are better than others, because they are the right color, because 'they were following orders', because of anything really.
I don't, and i'm not the only one. Lots live and let live, and value life very much. It must be that some have not evolved as far as others.
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wide... the loads you mention are very much on the hot side for the .357 but I would say that they were safe in a carbine.... 296 or h110 would be good powders for such hot loads in a longer barrel like a carbine.
You are correct in that the bullet itself is important. The problem with pistol bullets is that they are made to expand at relatively low velocities. This makes them less than Ideal for game. I have loaded 44 mags for pig and dear and bear huinters with 250-300 grain cast lead bullets at 1300 fps or so from revolvers that really anchor game when they hit... little or no expansion.
I would be interested in what kind of bullet the guy was using in the little 30 caliber SKS. certainly not FMJ? The SKS can be loaded from a "clip" but the clip is discarded after it is used to insert the rounds into the magazine. trivial stuff I guess.
I will admit to being surprised that so many died so quickly from their wounds... I would have expected less dead and more wounded.
oh..jigs... I meant that he didn't understand his rights on keeping and bearing arms. You don't have the right to threaten innocent people with em.
lazs
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I saw on the news this morning, the 6th victim to die was a young lady, in her picture she was dressed in surgical garb, probably was a nurse.
The shooter was on the other hunting parties private land in their privately owned deer stand and was told he would have to leave.
My understanding is, after he was forced to leave, he returned and opened fire. Not exactly defending oneself when you leave and then return to shoot them up. He is claiming that he was shot at first, but I don't think anyone will buy that story. Two survivors tell a differant story.
He is a Hmong from Laos.
dago
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Originally posted by lazs2
I will admit to being surprised that so many died so quickly from their wounds... I would have expected less dead and more wounded.
lazs
The guy earned a sharpshooter badge, seems he know just where to hit them. might be interesting to see if the victims were hit more than once.
I know that folks don't usually hunt in midday, but what were the other hunters thinking about not heading out w/o their weapons?
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My sks loads 5-10-20-30-and 33 round clips. the 5 is used for hunting...(never used it) I also have a few 33 round clips for taking cedar trees down. Most people by the cheap korean ammo...(has a funny smell) ....the avg. 7.62 hollow point is 122 grains....they have silver tipped at the same grain....and of course the AP anywhere from 54 grains up.....the ap will penetrate 13mm of steel. (or in my case a cedar tree with a 12" trunk).
I still think the guy "sniped" them as they came riding up on their ATV's.....the invistigation will bring out more facts or muddy up the current facts. ....The shooter also had been in the US Army....so I'm sure he was fully aware of what he was doing.
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So some nutcase killed 6 hunters just for fun; so far everything is clear.
Now what I'm interested is are you going to do anything to stop incidents like this happen again?
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You cannot.
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Well how about trying to make it a bit harder to commit murders like this?
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Sorry guys - getting to some of these late - I'm still in Florida for the Holidays.
Curious if they were Pistons or Pacers fans? Maybe they were arguing about the Basekt Brawl? Only other call that I hate responding to other than a Domestic Incident is Incident Hunters. Nothing worse than approaching a group of red neck hunters (Not all hunters are red necks but the ones that I usually have to deal with don't have a full set of teeth plus their usually salamandered) holding 12 gauge shotguns, giving you that mile long stare, and responding to your questions with nothing other than "Yup."
Fighting over tree stand territory - how primitive and tribal can you get?
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Now what I'm interested is are you going to do anything to stop incidents like this happen again?
Stop what?And who? Humm the death penalty is not enough of a deterent?
Guns don't kill people.... people kill people.
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Originally posted by Staga
So some nutcase killed 6 hunters just for fun; so far everything is clear.
Now what I'm interested is are you going to do anything to stop incidents like this happen again?
Death penalty has a zero recidivism rate.
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Maveric, I wonder how many of these snipers and "Hunter Hunters" are repeating their crime anyways; even if without deathpenalty?
I'd think bigger threat is that guy who is just about to snap but who still walks free, capable of buying a semiauto "hunting-rifle" just for fun.
It's about your childrens, your relatives, your friends... Not mine, if some nutcase opens fire with semi- or fullauto in US there's nobody I know under fire so frankly speaking I really don't care much.
I'm just interested about the issue because nutcases with firearms looks to be a problem in US but you're not doing anything about it.
Compare to Iraq; they weren't a threat for you but that didn't stop you invading there?
Oh well, there's saying "You made your bed; now you have to lay in it" or something like that.
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staga... what would you suggest that we do about it?
We could stop all immigration and give everyone left a psyc test every 6 months or so but with allmost 300 million people that might get a triffle cumbersome.
lazs
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Because everybody knows... all murders are committed by immigrants.
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damn i better get with the program and nail someone then ;)
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Originally posted by Nash
Because everybody knows... all murders are committed by immigrants.
btw we just marked the 1st anniversary of Dru Sjodin's abduction and murder. (http://www.grandforks.com/images/grandforks/grandforks/7396/54706502524.jpg) Wasn't she a beautiful young woman?
The man charge is Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. Here is his rap sheet from the Mn dept of Corrections:
==========================================
Birth Date: 2/18/1953
Race/Ethnicity: WHITE/Hispanic
Skin Tone: DARK
Hair Color: GRAY
Eye Color: BROWN
Height: 5'04"
Weight: 159
Build: MEDIUM
OID: 108212
Supervising Agent: Expired from court imposed sentence and supervised release
Release Date: 05/01/2003
Offense Statute(s): Att. Agg. Rape, Agg. Rape, Att. Kidnapping & Agg. Assault
Offense Information:
Offender has a history of sexual contact and attempted kidnapping with adult females. Contact included pentration in two instances. Offender used force and has used a weapon to gain compliance. Offender was previously known to one victim, not previously known to two victims.
============================================
Pretty damn sure this guy was not a real Minnesotan either. On the plus side, Dru's family is suing the State of Minnesota for $1,000,000 for her wrongful death. I hope they get it and more. This scum should have never been released.
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That's exactly what I'm saying oboe. Get rid of the immigrants, and ya get rid of the murderers.
God bless Dru Sjodin, and I know she's in a better place.
Now if ya could get rid of immigrants and people whose name sounds like, oh, Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. for example, then god willing there wouldn't be any more Dru Sjodins.
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Nash I know you aren't being serious. Getting rid of immigrants won't stop the violence. I think the real problem is people who have 'nothing to live for and nothing to lose' - i.e. the poor.
We need to get rid of the poor.
But how to go about doing that? Double digit increases in healthcare premiums, education costs, and gasoline make poor people poorer and drag the lower middle class down. Our minimum wage of $5.15/hr is well below the poverty level for a head of family. So it seems like we're going the wrong direction there.
Perhaps the President's rewrite of the overtime laws to take away their overtime pay will help - I don't know - he's smarter than I am and that's why he's President. Maybe his expanded global trade and the ease with which companies now export jobs to cheap labor countries will also help. Bush has been criticized for our trade deficit; we need to export more. Maybe jobs will become an even more important export item and help redress the trade imbalance.
I think Bush's proposed rewrite of Social Security to allow poor, uneducated people to 'play' the stock market with their retirement funds my improve their outlook. As would the administration's suggestion to classify their hamburger-flipping jobs at McDonalds as 'manufacturing' jobs. I know I'd feel alot better about working at McDonalds if it was considered a manufacturing job. That change alone can put alot more imaginary food on the poor people's tables and make the Administration look good doing it (for increasing our manufacturing jobs base). So it's really a win-win scenario there.
:)
I have to stop. This is the wrong road to go down on Thanksgiving.
God Bless poor people, our soldiers in Iraq, and those who have suffered tragedy and loss this year.
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Originally posted by oboe
I have to stop.
Dang... Oh well, it was good while it lasted. :)
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well... guess we are left with getting rid of all the crazy people.
then again... maybe we should realize that in a vibrant country that has a lot of different cultures there are bound to be some problems... sometimes with trajic results. In most cases, pretty much unavoidable.
These things will happen once in a while in a country this large with this much freedom and diversity. I bet that no one is considering moveing to finland over it tho.
lazs
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Staga is simply trolling, again. Even he knows thgere is no end to the duplicity of a human being. As long as there are people there will be instances of problems between them. What he likes to do is focus on the few instances of this type and ignore the rest of the population that does not have a problem getting along. It's better to punish the rest of society for the misdeeds of the few than just hold the few accountable in the "interest of safety". This premise denies the culpability of the individual and places the blame on the many or in this case an inanimate object.
The world is not a safe place and it would be far better teaching people how to get along in the first place instead of punishing or denying the many for the acts of the few.
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Originally posted by oboe
We need to get rid of the poor.
I have long been an advocate of putting poison in the glue used for food stamps.
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yep mav... it is like the example I gave earlier of a rock climber that goes crazy and get's to the top and starts cutting other climbers ropes, plunging then to their deaths..... Would staga come on here and claim that something had to be done to prevent that in the future?
How bout a woman who uses her car to drive up on the sidwalk in Reno and run down people? shouldn't something be done to prevent that from happening too?
we could ban gun or hunting or immigrants or rock climbing or cars or women from driving or whatever but in the end... as you say.. there is no end to the duplicity (or mental abnormalities) of the human being...
Taking away freedoms takes away from quality of life... choosing to take away freedoms that are unimportant to you personally is perhaps the most selfish act a human can commit.
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
Staga is simply trolling, again. Even he knows thgere is no end to the duplicity of a human being. As long as there are people there will be instances of problems between them. What he likes to do is focus on the few instances of this type and ignore the rest of the population that does not have a problem getting along. It's better to punish the rest of society for the misdeeds of the few than just hold the few accountable in the "interest of safety". This premise denies the culpability of the individual and places the blame on the many or in this case an inanimate object.
The world is not a safe place and it would be far better teaching people how to get along in the first place instead of punishing or denying the many for the acts of the few.
What ever.
You have two options: Sit on your butt and wait next nutcase with a sniper-rifle or a fullauto to find his/her way to the frontpages or do something to prevent it happening.
Choice is yours; it's up to you what kind of country you're leaving to the next generations.
You're clearly made up your mind :)
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staga... what sniper rifle? What full auto rifle? Neither of these was involved. The most dangerous weapon out there that day was the twisted mind of the killer.
Again... How would you prevent such a killing in the future?
How would you prevent the woman who ran down all the pedestrians on the sidewalk in Reno?
What about the man who killed all the people in the outdoor market with his car?
Those things will happen from time to time when crazy people missuse tools.
lazs
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That first rape abduction should be your death sentence. No matter how funy or normal your name is.
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Staga, whatever. Wonderful arguement, simply show disagreement with NO alternative to it. Brilliant. :rolleyes:
The only true solution is for human nature to change in a manner to totally avoid all conflict on all level. You want a utopia, show us the way, don't just belittle with no constructive comment.
Taking something away from the 99.9999% of law abiding citizens does not prevent homicide or assaults by the .0001% of the population that cannot live in any kind of harmony wityh their neighbors. The problem is in the human factor. There simply are folks who honestly believe that the world is there to serve them and some are truly what can be termed evil. If you can come up with the solution to that situation feel free to enlighten us all.
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pongo and maverick are exactly right on this.
lazs
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DAM some people just dont f#k around huh, crazy stuff here and sad.