Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on November 23, 2004, 08:41:29 AM
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watched some of the one on jfk assasination... really liked the part where the guy said.. "it's not a single bullet theory, it's a single bullet fact"
Also liked the way they dissasembled that hate monger liar stones movie. to me, stone and michelle moore are cut from the same lying cloth.
lazs
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Was that the one where they made the replicas of JFK and Connolly out of Ballisitic Gelatin, and re-enacted the magic bullet...several times?
I think it was done by an Aussie researcher.
That the one your talking about?
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Kinda funny how the Dallas Police and the FBI botched the crime scene. You'd figure they'd be extremely careful as it was the President that was assassinated.
Single bullet fact LOL.... Lone assassin? LOL
The Warren Commission was a joke.
:rolleyes:
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They managed to replicate all 7 wounds of the magic bullet on the documentary.....3 times out of 3...using the same parameters as the assasination.
I USED to believe it was a conspiracy....
Even the odd shape of connollys back wound was exactly the same as the one they replicated.
very convincing stuff.
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I guess we'll really never know for sure.
:confused:
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Originally posted by AWMac
I guess we'll really never know for sure.
:confused:
You seem pretty convinced in your first post.... :)
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Still am convinced it was a conspiracy.
:D
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After I die, if there is an afterlife, that's one of the first questions I'm gonna ask.
I'll let you know...
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Sure it was a conspiracy however there was only one shooter. How else can you account for the results turning out like they did repeatedly with the ballistic gelatin and the same lot number ammunition from the same series rifle as the one LHO used to shoot Kennedy.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Still am convinced it was a conspiracy.
:D
Regardless of what you may have read or heard, on Nov '63 I was not in Dallas peering through a scope and a sewer grate on Elm St.
I have an alibi, and so far it has been air tight. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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ballisticall if shot from behind (where oswald was) the back of JFK's head should not have blow off! the opposite should have happend............hint the shot came from the fence behind the grassy nole!
hehe
i think ive seen em all .............
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Originally posted by boxboy28
ballisticall if shot from behind (where oswald was) the back of JFK's head should not have blow off! the opposite should have happend............hint the shot came from the fence behind the grassy nole!
The massive exit wound is in front of the ear, as this frame from Zapruder shows.
bloody (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/z335.jpg)
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Originally posted by Reschke
Sure it was a conspiracy however there was only one shooter. How else can you account for the results turning out like they did repeatedly with the ballistic gelatin and the same lot number ammunition from the same series rifle as the one LHO used to shoot Kennedy.
Didnt see the show.
but in their tests did the top of the head blow off and back in the direction the bullet supposedly came from too?
Wish my father was still alive to give his input.
He devoured any and all information available on the subject.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The massive exit wound is in front of the ear, as this frame from Zapruder shows.
bloody (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/z335.jpg)
Kinda hard to definively see anything in that pic
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The red bloody stuff in front of his right ear is brains.
Here is frame 313, the burst of the exit wound..
313 (http://www.hobrad.com/z313.jpg)
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Assassins came in through Mexico, dressed like police officers, shot the president, hid in a safe house for a few weeks, then left through Canada.
Cliche, but the truth is out there. It just has to be discerned from all the other theories.
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Originally posted by AWMac
I guess we'll really never know for sure.
:confused:
We may know eventually the whole truth.
Or at least some of the youngest members here may eventually know.
but the whole truth wont be let out until well after anyone even remotely connected to the case is dead
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Magic bullet theory eh Laz...
you being a gun loving nut knows that a bullet does not hit bone and metal smack into a car dash and come out all pristine...now now Laz think about it...
Oh and bullets do not turn 90 degrees mid-flight :D
research this...
It was a classic snipers triangle.
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Why are all the biggest America haters here usually conspiracy nuts too? Tweety, SLO, Whitehawk, Kappa/DudeTheVant etc etc they are all like that? Whether its 911, Kennedy, the moon landings whatever its always the evil USA that did the bad stuff somehow, someway...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why are all the biggest America haters here usually conspiracy nuts too? Tweety, SLO, Whitehawk, Kappa/DudeTheVant etc etc they are all like that? Whether its 911, Kennedy, the moon landings whatever its always the evil USA that did the bad stuff somehow, someway...
You are in serious breach of breaking your stupidity record in so few words, calm down Grun:D
No one said we hate the U.S...we just said its obvious there was more then one shooter. Conspiracy or not, there was more then one shooter;)
now back to your local paranoid delusional self...yes this is a conspiracy against you Grun...:lol
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Originally posted by SLO
You are in serious breach of breaking your stupidity record in so few words, calm down Grun:D
No one said we hate the U.S...we just said its obvious there was more then one shooter. Conspiracy or not, there was more then one shooter;)
now back to your local paranoid delusional self...yes this is a conspiracy against you Grun...:lol
Hey SLO
How do you know there was more than one shooter?
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Hey why dont we just write Kennedy out of the history books so we can forget this whole silly episode... You support that sort of thing when it suits your biases SLO, dont ya?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Hey why dont we just write Kennedy out of the history books so we can forget this whole silly episode... You support that sort of thing when it suits your biases SLO, dont ya?
no
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Originally posted by NUKE
Hey SLO
How do you know there was more than one shooter?
Think about it Nuke, killing a Prez. would you do it alone as a sniper or TRAP em with a team.
and that damn cheap Italian Carcano rifle was not so very accurate...
now shot a moving target with it, pretty self-explanatory.
3 shots 6.7(Approx.) seconds moving target.
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Originally posted by SLO
no
BS
You clearly want obvious facts removed from history books because you dont like them...
Not only are you insane you are a liar too.
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SLO,
Sorry to burst your bubble bud, but bullets DO sometimes tumble during flight. All it has to do is touch something...anything...no matter how insubstantial.
The 6.5 mm bullet that hit Kennedy was a solid metal projectile...not a hollow point. It was fired at a relatively low velocity for a rifle round...approximately 2300 feet per second. After passing through Kennedy and Connelly it could well have imbedded itself in another soft object without being deformed.
The 6.5 mm caliber was adopted by several countries in Europe and Asia as their main battle cartridge because of its low recoil and superb accuracy. The Italian Carcano used by Oswald, while hardly of the quality of a Mannlicher carbine, was certainly of sufficient accuracy to do the job.
Also, more than one marksman has duplicated Oswald's feat with the same type of rifle, from the same range, and at a similar elevation and angle. The Zapruda film shows Kennedy and Connelly reacting simultaneously to a bullet strike. Three dimensional recreations of the event, using computer graphics, have shown that the the two men were, without a doubt, struck by a single bullet. It passed through Kennedy's upper back, out through the lower part of his throat, through the seat in front of him, into Connelly's back, and left and inch and a half exit wound just below his right nipple.
The computer recreation featured on the History Channel, which was programmed by modern day police investigators, using modern investigative techniques applied to the Zapruder film and the autopsy reports, determined that the bullet that struck Kennedy and Connelly was indeed fired from the window of the Texas School Book Depository building.
Three shell casings were found underneath the window. The rifle was found hidden in another part of the building. Oswald was the only employee not in the building when the police searched it. He is the only employee known to have committed a crime that day...the murder of Police Office Paul Tibbets.
No other evidence has EVER come to light concerning the presence of another shooter.
I will admit to the POSSIBILITY of Oswald acting on behalf of the mob, or perhaps some shadowy foreign agency, but the overwhelming evidence points to only one logical conclusion...that the President of the United States, the most powerful man in the world, was killed by a little pip-squeak with a "head full of scrambled eggs."
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clicky (http://littleshop.physics.colostate.edu/belize/SJCJC/Images/7.jpg)
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Eye witness accounts report seeing a muzzle flash and smelling cordite from the area around the grassy knoll.
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Originally posted by lazs2
watched some of the one on jfk assasination... really liked the part where the guy said.. "it's not a single bullet theory, it's a single bullet fact"
.
lazs
The real world is scary, the land of make believe is not.
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Originally posted by boxboy28
ballisticall if shot from behind (where oswald was) the back of JFK's head should not have blow off! the opposite should have happend............hint the shot came from the fence behind the grassy nole!
hehe
i think ive seen em all .............
Maybe, or maybe the sewer drain along side of the curb just a few feet from the car. The shooter would have ben able to exit using the serwers.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
.
.
No other evidence has EVER come to light concerning the presence of another shooter.
I
Read the 1978 House assassinations committee report, for official evidence. Use the other 99% of your common sense for the real eveidence.
the real world is scary, the land of make believe is not.
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fact is that someone from that window in the depository fired 4 shots and one of those shots killed kennedy. That person looked like oswald and oswald carried a package the size of a gun up there... he latter ran away and shot a cop when cornered.
Anone who believes the "pristeen" bullet crap is being conned... the bullet was a solid and it was dented and highly flattened. I have seen bullets look better after hitting a solid dirt bank at half again that speed.
face it... the guy manged to shoot kennedy. who knows if it was his idea or not?
lazs
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The sewer drain was ruled out by modern police experts because of the difficult angle to the target and the narrowness of the aperture. How could a sniper have fired from that position, with people standing literally on top of him and directly across the road, and not be seen?
This same police investigation, after studying photographs and films taken by spectators all around the plaza, ruled that no shot could have come from the grassy knoll, for there was no one in position there. Nor could the shot have come from the highway overpass toward which Kennedy's limo was headed. No one was there either.
oswald fired three shots. The first missed and was never recovered. The second hit both Kennedy and Connelly. The third hit Kennedy in the head. The massive shock of that death wound caused his body to arch in agony. The human body almost always arches up and back under such an injury to the brain. Arm-chair detectives have erroneously assumed that this movement was caused by a bullet strike from the front. The force of the blow exploded pieces of Kennedy's brain and skull in every direction. A single large piece landed on the rear of the limo. Again, nimrod arm-chair investigators have assumed that this meant a bullet strike from the front.
It is possible that Oswald was working for someone or some agency. Nevertheless, he acted alone.
Truth is never as dramatic or entertaining as fantasy.
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Originally posted by lazs2
fact is that someone from that window in the depository fired 4 shots and one of those shots killed kennedy. That person looked like oswald and oswald carried a package the size of a gun up there... he latter ran away and shot a cop when cornered.
Anone who believes the "pristeen" bullet crap is being conned... the bullet was a solid and it was dented and highly flattened. I have seen bullets look better after hitting a solid dirt bank at half again that speed.
face it... the guy manged to shoot kennedy. who knows if it was his idea or not?
lazs
uhhhh..the oswald theory is based on him firing 3 shots. any more wouldve been impossible to do in the amount of time and confirmed the conspiracy theory as fact.
If it was just a matter of an incridible bullet doing massive damage and coming out looking like a bullet fired in a water tank, then fine, wow. But the x rays of connallys wrist show more fragments than what is missing from the magic bullet, eliminationg the magic bullet as a possibility of the projectile that did the damage to connallys wrist. Therefore, the magic bullet thoery is impossible in the real world.
To try to clear things up, the magic bullet is the only piece of evidence that links the Manlicher carcano rifle to the murder of JFK. They couldve fished pieces of bullets out of the presidents brain for more evidence, but, they uhhhhh, forgot. Yea thats the ticket, forgot. Not only that, they couldve used the presidents brain to find beyond any doubt the angle of the fatal headshot, but, they, uhhh forgot to do that in the autopsy also. But dont blame the doctor at the autopsy, it was his first homicide autopsy.
:eek:
When some """conspiracy theorist'''' got wind of this 'slight oversight', he went to the national archives to retrieve the presidents brain for further examination, and to put to rest any conspiracy theories.
Drats, somebody lost the brain.:confused:
So, you can see why, even if oswald was the lone assassin, some people get a little suspicious and demand, that at least a professional investigation and perhaps, god forbid, a trial take place when one of our Presidients is murdered. What if the mob murdered Kennedy to take control of the white house, and thus, our military? This would all come out at the trial.
So, for some good reading try High Treason by Robert Grodin, this is very slanted for the conspiracy theory side, but it brings up some serious questions about the assassination. Also has some pics that are quite obviously faked autposy photos to help prove the 'official story'. After the zapruder film surfaced, the photos were obviously not that of the head of JFK AFTER the assasination and had to be admitted by the 'officials' as 'softened' because the originals were too gruesome.
For a good movie thats not quite so slanted, there is JFK i think by stanley Kubrick. A very good movie regardless fo what you believe.
The times we live in are very exciting if you use your own senses to draw your own conclusions.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why are all the biggest America haters here usually conspiracy nuts too?
GRUNHERZ - I love our country but it is quite obvious there was more that one shooter involved in the Kennedy Assignation. I have always found it intriguing how our premier law enforcement division, the FBI manages to foul up major investigations (Whether its done deliberately or not is another question). I have had a front row seat to cover ups on a minor level where the monkey wrench was deliberately thrown into an investigation to hink it up. We had an incident involving some high up bosses but phone calls were made to the DAs office by the Chief of Police (Retired now thank God and will always be a piece of S*** in my eyes) and it ended up as “A simple misunderstanding” – “Boys will be boys” BS! It made our Internal Affairs Division look like incompetent morons. I don’t like being privy to these things and what sucks worse is that you become powerless caught up in them especially when you are at the bottom of the food chain. We have new Administration now and I am proud once again of our department and the way Accountability is enforced. I don’t want go on a tangent but I worked the night of the TWA Flight 800 tragedy. I witnessed it from a great distance – to me it looked like a massive firework going off far away. I always found it interesting that the FBI told over 300 witnesses “You did not see that – You all saw this.”
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sorry... 3 shots fired and one chambered. I have never seen any evidence that suggested that there were fragments of the bullet taken from connelys wrist that were inconsistent with the facts.
There is no magic bullet... the bullet acted in a very normal way. It did very normal damage and was not a particularly spectacular or even lucky shot.
I have no idea where you are from but in this universe that is the way bullets act... sorry.
lazs
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If you think a second shooter fired from the sewer grate, perhaps you know too much.
(http://www.sandarsdimension.com/excavations/Archives_New/images/CSMIndex.jpg)
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The killing shot came from the sewer gate and blew JFK's forehead off.
The 6.5 was accurate slow and did not damage at all. All of those who used it in WW2 got their tulips kicked. The gun Oswald had was not accurate though. You could put the muzzle up to your foot, pull the trigger and still miss. I'm not saying that Oswald didn't try, he sure did. But he didn't hit anything.
I still mantain it was the CIA punishing JFK for all the men he killed at the Bay of Pigs. It was JFK who botched it because he only launched half the invasion.
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Actually, I have it from a top-level CIA source that, now you didn't hear this from me, that Rod Serling did it.
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Sooooooooo the evil sewer people from below did it now....
:rofl
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Sooooooooo the evil sewer people from below did it now....
:rofl
yes, the french did it!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
BS
You clearly want obvious facts removed from history books because you dont like them...
Not only are you insane you are a liar too.
And I'm smart enough to NOT listen to delusional folks like you :D
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DREDIOCK wrote:
We may know eventually the whole truth.
Or at least some of the youngest members here may eventually know.
but the whole truth wont be let out until well after anyone even remotely connected to the case is dead
and why that? if it was Osswald why hide it for years???
whats behind all that hide? i want it now!
not possible? lol
Osswald = E.T. ?
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Oswald was left handed. Laz, don't you operate the bolt action with your right hand? Now even if Oswald practiced alot with his right hand, he still wouldnt have been able to operate the rifle as fast as a normal right handed individual.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The killing shot came from the sewer gate and blew JFK's forehead off.
The 6.5 was accurate slow and did not damage at all. All of those who used it in WW2 got their tulips kicked. The gun Oswald had was not accurate though. You could put the muzzle up to your foot, pull the trigger and still miss. I'm not saying that Oswald didn't try, he sure did. But he didn't hit anything.
I still mantain it was the CIA punishing JFK for all the men he killed at the Bay of Pigs. It was JFK who botched it because he only launched half the invasion.
Just no time to search, to busy at work, but your idea is pretty much what I'm thinking too...along those lines anyways
btw anyone know were the magic bullet was found?
I'm trying real hard Shuckins to try and see things the way you say, just haven't seen much of solid evidence pointing to no conspiracy...
You say Oswald, alone, I say with others, hence his patsie comment, he felt cheated somehow, cries panstie, or if he was looking for recognition he was going the wrong way about it...
research carefully his background, pay specific attention to his radar ops days in Japon for U2's...and the consequences.
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One things for sure though, it was a sad day when that man died...
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JFK that is!!!
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Well, Oswald wasn't alone in the shooting, but he didn't work with anyone else if you catch my meaning.
JFK was not the silver star everyone thought he was. To finance his campaign he "Borrowed" a lot of money from the mafia. When he won and the mafia "Asked" for their money back, he said, "**** you!" So the mafia was after him too.
So, after JFK is dead, they catch Oswald. They send someone to kill oswald (Jack Ruby). So while we know that Oswald couldn't have possibly been the killer because of the gun, We know that the Mafia didn't kill JFK because they would have wanted to do it themselves. Instead they sent someone to punish the person who they thought killed JFK.
I don't think that Oswald was working for the Mafia, he was literally insane. Too much of a loose cannon to be hired by anyone with more than 2 brain cells.
So, in my mind, this leaves the CIA as the only one with a motive. JFK had in his hands the complete control over the Bay of Pigs. He decided to only send in Half the invasion force and would not support them at all which he promised he would. (As a side note: When the cuban invasion force was pretty much ****ed anyway, americans broke orders and tried to help them, but the damage was done anyway.) So many cubans died, not to mention some real soldiers and some CIA agents. All the blame was on JFK's lap. BAM! Motive!
**Edit: The best thing JFK ever did was to die.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Oswald was left handed. Laz, don't you operate the bolt action with your right hand? Now even if Oswald practiced alot with his right hand, he still wouldnt have been able to operate the rifle as fast as a normal right handed individual.
Incorrect, I'm left handed but prefer a right hand trigger, but I have a stronger left eye with my non-binocular vision. I can operate a bolt equally as fast in either hand. It just takes a little practise. So I can shoot left or right handed, with both eyes open.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Incorrect, I'm left handed but prefer a right hand trigger, but I have a stronger left eye with my non-binocular vision. I can operate a bolt equally as fast in either hand. It just takes a little practise. So I can shoot left or right handed, with both eyes open.
3 shoots in 6.5 sec. on a moving target...with a cheap gun and Binocular.
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Interesting stuff Vulcan. In the movie "JFK", I think they show Oswald operating the bolt with his left hand.
Nevertheless, I certainly could not fire 3 aimed shots in 6.5 seconds with a bolt action rifle without at least months of practice.
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Go somewhere quiet, sit down,
say it yourself at an even pace
one thousand and one
one thousand and two
one thousand and three
one thousand and four
one thousand and five
one thousand and six
one thousand and seven
I'd certainly have to agree, 3 shots at a moving target in that timeframe, you'd have to be lucky, but then again its not impossible - in fact better odds than winning lotta and look how many people are happy with taking on those odds.
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SLO,
Read my previous post. Oswald's feat has been duplicated, with the same gun, ammunition, and scope under the same conditions by expert police marksmen. If you haven't seen the special program that was on the History Channel you should. It is an eye-opener and completely debunks many of the junk theories so dear to the hearts of Oliver Stone and other conspiracy buffs. Viewers could SEE the officers duplicating the shot, and they did it more than once. The only problem was with the military surplus ammunition, which sometimes refused to fire. Police forensics, aided by modern computer technology, proved that Kennedy and Connelly were hit by the same bullet. When the program was over it left little room for doubt that Oswald was the only shooter, except for those who do not want to be convinced.
What so many conspiracy theorists conveniently forget is that Oswald served in the military and was a bonafide marksman there. He had training in the use of the bolt action rifle. He wasn't just some punk off the streets.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
What so many conspiracy theorists conveniently forget is that Oswald served in the military and was a bonafide marksman there. He had training in the use of the bolt action rifle. He wasn't just some punk off the streets.
Yep, he was a Marine and they stress marksmanship more than any of the other services...
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Grun,
Have you ever seen this done? Take one Ruger #1 single shot rifle, falling block action. Hold two cartridges base first between the fingers of the left hand. Load one cartridge into the chamber. Fire one carefully aimed shot at a target, and then reload and fire with the two cartridges in the left hand as rapidly as possible.
With a little practice, you can beat an experienced marksman with a bolt action rifle in placing repeat shots on target. The falling block action eliminates the awkward rock-and-roll motion the shooter has to go through with a bolt action to fire follow-up shots. The Ruger remains firmly planted on the shoulder, sigts aligned with the eye.
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He might have been a marksmen, but you still need a decent rifle to be able to do something.
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Originally posted by SLO
3 shoots in 6.5 sec. on a moving target...with a cheap gun and Binocular.
The doco I seen on the JFK asassination recently (English doco I think) said the three shots were fired in between 7 and 8 seconds not 6.5. They even had a guy demonsrtate that it was relativly easy to get 3 aimed shots off within that time with the type of rifle Oswald used.
The range from Oswald's position and JFK's car when he opened fire was only 88 yards. If the scope was zeroed prpoperly, that rifle did not have to be a tackholer to score hits at that range.
Oswald spent 3 years in the marines, he was a marksman in rapid fire with a rifle... it said so in the doco.
From an elevated rest he fired at target that was only 88 yards away, moving at a fairly slow and constant speed more or less directly away from himself.
I would be more amazed if he had missed
Excel
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Originally posted by SLO
Just no time to search, to busy at work, but your idea is pretty much what I'm thinking too...along those lines anyways
btw anyone know were the magic bullet was found?
.
The bullet pulled off one more feat of physics as it rolled out of connallys leg and wound up on his strestcher at parkland hospital to be found by a doctor. The bullet was not found inside of his clothes. It rolled out of his wound and throught the pants, i assume through the bullet hole and wound up on his stretcher.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Go somewhere quiet, sit down,
say it yourself at an even pace
one thousand and one
one thousand and two
one thousand and three
one thousand and four
one thousand and five
one thousand and six
one thousand and seven
I'd certainly have to agree, 3 shots at a moving target in that timeframe, you'd have to be lucky, but then again its not impossible - in fact better odds than winning lotta and look how many people are happy with taking on those odds.
Quite true vulcan. i coould get t 3 shots off in 7 seconds. But could I get 8 wounds from them at that distance? Would I pass up the front head shot as the limo was coming toward the book depository? IS it possible ? Hell yes. But American patriots dont ask "is it possible?" They ask "is that what probably happened?"
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Some more questions that need to be answered and facts that should come ou.
The only prints on the gun were a 1 palm print from oswalds hand. There is no mention of gloves found, but perhaps he could have got the rifle out of the bag and then put gloves on.
Nitrate tests on oswalds hands showed he hadnt fired a gun within the last 24 hours. (Why wasnt this issue addressed by the "official investigators"?). Again, the simple conclusion is that he wore gloves, but why are we, the bewildered public left to speculate? And why werent they found, he didnt have time to hide them anywhere not on a bee line path from the book store to his house to the movie theatre.
THE SAME TYPE OF BULLET THAT SHATTERED CONNALLYS RIB AND BLASTED THROUGH HIS WRISTBONE TO LODGE IN IS LEG IN RELATIVE GREAT CONDITION WAS COMPLETELY DESTROYED, EVAPORATED, PASSING THROUGH APPROXAMATELY 1/4" OF THE BONE IN KENNEDYS HEAD.
Why were the performance of the bullets so different? Again, the catch all phrase, 'bullets do strange things' is the bail out of the gobblers of the 'official story'. American Patriots demand to know "what probably happend", not "since strange things do happen, we are not to question our 'officials'." If none of us questioned our officials, you would see some real strange sht happen.
Do you realize that Oswald was arrested in the movie theatre for 'not paying for his ticket!'. The entire police force of dallas was dispatched to the movie theatre at a time when the president of the US was dying from a assassins bullet, to get some guy who didnt pay for his ticket? Lucky it just haoppend to be the guy who shot the president.
Maybe Oswald was part of the ring and was double crossed by Rubys bullet, maybe he believed he was a secret agent and was just doing as he was told in order to be the unknowing patsy, (bring a packeage in to the book store, wait in the lunch room for a phone call, etc.), or maybe he actually fired from the 6th floor.
Maybe the majic bullet actually did what they say it did.
I watch the zapruder film and I can plainly see, the bullet hit from the fron right, at about 2 oclk, the pieces of head slpatted in every direction except to the cone of fire, and the head learched to the back left, as the laws of physics would dictate from a front-right shot. I firmly believe in the laws of physics and my own eyes. I am not alone. If you watch the zapruder film and see something different and choose to side with the 'officials', then God bless. Like I said, as long as you use your own senses to draw your own conclusions, we can have a good healthy argument.
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geeze I love hearing about how guns work from guys who probly never shot one. For you who think a carcano is inaccurate I would ask you to stand or even run 300 yards away while I took a shot at you with one that was equipped with a scope.
The carcano has an extremely nice/easy bolt action and a worn one is even better. they are a very flat shooting round and one zeroed in at 100 yards like anyone would do at a range.... would be perfect at 70 to 150. Oswalds gun and ammo would probly group 2 inches at 100 yards.
Oswald went up to the window and with a gun package and someone then fired the 3 shots from there. the balistics of the rounds that were fired showed they all came from there. the rifle and spent rounds were found there with oswalds prints on em and the bullets recovered came from that gun...
a guy who looked just like oswald ran away and later shot a cop with another of Oswalds guns, a 38 with damaged rifling. Oswald was captured in the area.
Get over it... he did it. I don't know why but he did it.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Oswald went up to the window and with a gun package and someone then fired the 3 shots from there. the balistics of the rounds that were fired showed they all came from there. the rifle and spent rounds were found there with oswalds prints on em and the bullets recovered came from that gun...
a guy who looked just like oswald ran away and later shot a cop with another of Oswalds guns, a 38 with damaged rifling. Oswald was captured in the area.
Get over it... he did it. I don't know why but he did it.
lazs
lazs.. i can respect your point of view , but you are using the official story to prove the official story, which is what is in question.
If you believe the real people eyewitnesses that saw officer tippet murdered, there were 2 guys assalting him, and the shooter was much larger than oswald. Countless eyewitnesses were disregarded and ignored (and murdered) when they're story conflicted with the 'official' story.
The bottom line is, there are so many, 'well, its possible that it couldve happend this way' hurdles and hoops that the official story has to jump throguh that one can only look for the key piece of evidince to unlock the case beyond any doubt.
There are several. Number one, Lee Oswald himself. Shot dead by a distraught 'patriot' inside of the police station. Hmmmm. They shouldve hired security.
#2. The limo, which reportedly held evidence of more bullets, perhaps as many as 3 more bullets fired. Destroyed out of respect to the family.
#3. The presidents brain. A first year med student couldve reconstructed the brain in order to find out beyond any doubt whcih direction the head shot came from. Unfortunaltey, the military, for some reason, was in charge of this civilian autopsy and failed to deem that necessary. By the way, the photographer of the autopsy committed suicide shortly thereafter. Gunshot to the face. Hmmmm. The brain, a crucial piece of evidence in this crime, lost forever!
The question should be, since no heads rolled from these rediculous botches of the investigation into the assasination of the president of the US, is who was in a position to cause these 'oversights '? That is who had kennedy killed. It doesnt really matter who pulled the trigger.
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well history is usually his-story so a dry ice bullet would do the trick especially how the crime seen was tampered with the main suspect is murdered and technology was lightyears behind what we got now in the form of computer and forensic indentification..
watch the actual footage and watch his head snap back and forth a few times and then claim 1 shooter is beyond foolishness.. Look at his wounds highly irregular to say the least..
Olli stones movie is just that a movie.. But the actual footage I think tells the story pretty clearly if you know anything about ballistics... Throw in the fact that that JFK really was shaking washington up at the time and thru deductive reasoning its pretty obvious who, where, and why....
make your own deductions..
DoctorYo
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I have watched people in bullet proof vest take rounds more powerfull than the ones that Oswald shot at kennedy. They did not move at all.. there is no real push from the bullet... they flinched... real people hit by bullets have reactions that are not from the impact but from the muscle and nerve reactions of the wounded or dying brain. It is the hight of foolishness and ignorance to think that bullets were throwing the dead kennedy around. shooting people who are allready dead also proves this... they don't move at all or very little.
There is no evidence of more than three shots fired. There is no evidence that anyone but oswald was up there shooting and every ballistics test shows that the shots came from there.
Of course.... I don't have access to the real data like whithawk... I am only going by the data available to the public. My guess is tho that if you have any other data then you must either be or know the real shooters.
lazs
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I remember watching Stone's JFK but after watching Alexander the other night I immediatley purged every Oliver Stone movie I have seen from my brain, 110v wouldn't do it, had to plug in to 220v. Was JFK a conspiracy theory movie? ;)
Trust me on this, Alexander is really that bad.
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The home movie of Mrs. Muchmore , which was taken from the opposite side of the road from the Zapruder film, clearly shows the spray of blood, brain and bone from Kennedy's head being blown forward and upward. This is consistent with a bullet strike from the REAR.
Other home movies and still photographs taken at the time show NO ONE standing on the overpass or on the grassy knoll, two of the most often cited positions for the theoretical second gunman.
As to the missing brain, why haven't you mentioned the rumor that it was turned over to Robert Kennedy so that it could be interred with the body? Given the secretiveness of the Kennedy clan, as well as their political clout, I can't see them leaving John's brain to be preserved and gawked at by future generations of amateur investigators.
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Well, lets look at this from another standpoint.
Here is what makes me a conspiracy kook on the JFK thing.
Lazs stated that a Oswald entered the book store with a gun case.
Question: Do you honestly believe that the secret service would allow a man to enter a building with a snipers vantage point with a gun case the day the presidient was scheduled to ride in a convertable during the height of the cold war? The shot that Oswald would have had from the front as the limo approached the book store was far clearer than the one he took, it was the perfect snipers nest and yet no secret service? Does anybody know the name of the secret service agent in charge of security that day? Was he fired?
You see, the officials are so in tune with what it takes to pull of a successful mind ****, that they dont care how rediculous the story is.
Schuckins, I wasnt aware of that rumor about the presidents brain. It was pickeled and sent to the nat'l archives and promptly lost before conspiracy kooks could get thier hands on it and confuse the masses. Nobody knows what happened to the presidnets brain.
Question: Do you honestly believe that a sniper homicide investigation wouldnt think about determining the trajectory/path of the fatal head shot?!?! The simple fact that we are arguing amongst ourselves about where the head shot came from is testimony to the UNBELIEVABLE incompetence of the investigation. This is the president of the USA here.
One more question fromt he side of the 'official story': if the majic bullet wasnt the bullet that lodged in Conallys leg, where is it?
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Here is the load the warren commision wants us conspiracy kooks to swallow without som much as a peep.
1. With a downward angle of 17 it hits Kennedy in the right shoulder.
2. Then inside his body it turns upwards and exits through his throat.
3. On the way to Connally it pauses for 1.6 seconds and the proceeds in a zigzag move into the Governors right armpit.
4. Inside this body the bullet takes a turn 27 downwards and destroys Connallys 5th rib and exits through his chest.
5. Then the bullet turns right and enters his right hand where it pulverises the radius bone and exits the hand on the other side.
6. At last the bullet enters Connallys left thigh where it finally is "put to rest".
7. But it is not over yet! The bullet falls/crawls out of the Governor and ends up on the stretcher beside Kennedy in the Parkland Memorial Hospital.
These words are sarcastical but they are the facts of the majic bullet, for those of you that are wondering what all the hooplah is bout.
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I dont have enough info to formulate an opinion on the number of shooters. However I am convinced there was a conspiracy, the number of strange circumstances that had to out just exactly as they did, is far to great for it to be anything but a conspracy.
Starting with the unscheduled/unplanned removal of the cars top, the whole grassy knoll/magic bullet theories, the botched crime scene, the virgin M.E. working on the Prez. and botching the job, losing the brain, and all the other stuff I left out- it REAKS of conspiracy.
But that CANT be, the CIA would have nothing to do with any conspiracy of any kind.
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whitehawk... oswald worked at the book de4pository and carried a bundle that he said was curtain rods but was indeed a rifle... it was the rifle that killed kennedy. The bullet never paused for 1.6 seconds. It sounds like you are getting all your info from a..... movie... a movie that was made by a guy with even less honesty and credibility than michele moore.
face it... oswalds rifle killed jfk from the depository window while oswald was in the room with it.
lazs
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LOL @ "ice bullet" theory, what a handsomehunk idea.
The thing is about all this is it was the 60's, back then ballastics weren't what they are today, neither were forensics. Just look at how many unsolvedmurders from the 70's got solved in the late 90s/early 2000's.
Oswald may have got off more than 3 shots, he might have got off 5 or 6, with some missing, theres all sorts of stuff that could have gone on.
The point here to note is most of the conspiracy theories rely on throwing down "facts" which are blatantly incorrect and rely on the general publics lack of technical knowledge, such as the accuracy of such a rifle at 88 yards, the ability to get 3 shots in such a short time etc. The fact that the conspiracy theorists have to lie to add weight to their argument should say a lot to any logically thinking person.
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The over through of the US Government that took place on November 22 with the murder of JFK has been investigated by two official Government bodies. The Warren Commission found that there was one shooter. A second official Government body, The House Assassinations Committee report found that there was more then one shooter. Those are the facts. Next subject.
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Sigh. So much naivete...so little time.
Guys, I'm going to assume that you "true believers" have little or no experience with firearms and have no knowledge what a bullet is actually capable of doing after it strikes flesh.
I have and I do.
First, the 6.5 solid that hit Kennedy was traveling at 2300 feet per second. Think about that for a moment. That's more than a third of a mile per second. That caliber loaded with a solid projectile was used by Karamajo Bell to kill countless elephants in Africa. Single shots to the brain. A 140 grain 6.5 mm bullet has a LOT of penetrating power.
Second, bullets of all types and velocities regularly DO change course within the body. All the slug has to do is strike a bone...whether a glancing blow or full on doesn't matter. It is not unusual for them to change direction more than twice. I once read an autopsy on a criminal shot with a .22 long rifle cartridge. If memory serves, it struck him in the elbow, traveled up his arm, ricocheted off his collar bone, bounced around in his abdomen a couple of times, and came to rest in his ankle.
Third, the second bullet, having exited Kennedy's lower throat, struck Connelly under his right arm because he had turned to look over his right shoulder upon hearing the first shot. Connelly, an experienced HUNTER, realized (and later testified to that fact), that the first shot had become from behind the limo and to his right.
Fourth, that bullet, after exiting just below his right nipple, came to rest in his leg, its velocity largely spent. Oh, and by the way, bullets often DO fall out of wounds in just such a manner as has been described in Connelly's case. I have found pieces of spent bullets on the back side of deer that have been shot.
Lastly, I have not, in any of my posts, denied that there might have been a conspiracy. The shooting of Oswald by Ruby provides circumstantial evidence of a possible Mob connection.
Nevertheless, there has never been any proof that there was a second shooter.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
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Oswald may have got off more than 3 shots, he might have got off 5 or 6, with some missing, theres all sorts of stuff that could have gone on.
The point here to note is most of the conspiracy theories rely on throwing down "facts" which are blatantly incorrect and rely on the general publics lack of technical knowledge, such as the accuracy of such a rifle at 88 yards, the ability to get 3 shots in such a short time etc. The fact that the conspiracy theorists have to lie to add weight to their argument should say a lot to any logically thinking person.
Jee Vulcan, when you say 'oswald may have gotten off more than 3 shots' you are saying, 'there may have been a conspiracy. ' Then you go on to ridicule conspiracy theroists even though you may be one of them.
I do agree with you thogh, people often get involved with such discussions without having educated themselves on the facts.
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Originally posted by lazs2
whitehawk... oswald worked at the book de4pository and carried a bundle that he said was curtain rods but was indeed a rifle... it was the rifle that killed kennedy. The bullet never paused for 1.6 seconds. It sounds like you are getting all your info from a..... movie... a movie that was made by a guy with even less honesty and credibility than michele moore.
face it... oswalds rifle killed jfk from the depository window while oswald was in the room with it.
lazs
Once again lazs, its 2 people hopelessly in disagrement. I respect your opinion and ability to stay within the argument and not start up with infantile name calling.
Keep in mind, the warren commission had to stick to their story and make things workout within the zapruder film, which surfaced long after the assassination.
From the point of a conspiracy kook, here is what I am asked to believe.
Our secret service at the height of the cold war, would be so incompetent, that they would allow a man with a package that could possibly hold a rifle into a building that has a brilliant snipers position. This man just happens to be a known communist cuban sympathizer and a former soviet citizen.
They did not sweep the area before hand, as is common sense as well as strict standard procedures, they did not have agents on rooftops with binoculars and radios. They had NO safeguards against snipers.
This man, in approxamately 7 seconds, fires 3 shots 1 miss, and 2 hits causing 7 wounds, 1 a fatal headshot.
One of the bullets has a remarkable journey. Admittadly, not impossible, but very remarkable. The bullet falls out of the body and rolls throgh the clothes and winds up on a stretcher. Another lucky break, the bullet is in good enuff shape to match it to the Communist who brought the package in broad daylight the day of the presidential motorcade.
The forensics at that time were so inferir than that of today that they could not determine the trajectory of the bullet by using sceince, even thoguh they had the forensics to plot the remarkable journey fo the magic bullet.
Case closed say the officials.
Then the zapruder film comes out and clearly (to me) shows the head shot from the front right. Here come the conspiracy kooks, really, can you blame them?
Us paranoids are not wondering who is presidinet, we are wondering who is in control of our military.
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whitehawk... not the warren commission but the witnesses.... oswalds co workers... they drove him to work that morning with a package that would hold a rifle.... they seen him go up to the floor with the "package" they heard the shots...
the shots were fair to middling good shots not even particularly lucky shots. the bullets all acted like real bullets would and they came from the rifle found in the window of the book depository that just happened to be Oswalds.
No other creditable proof of any other shot from any other direction.
and most of all.... After all these years.... no one is taking credit for it.
lazs
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if amateur detectives who wernt even born at the time can see through the CIA "cover up" its a wonder you arnt speaking russian...
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I was firmly convinced that Oswald shot Kennedy by the Dicovery channel programme which showed a man in his seventies getting off three aimed shots from a Carcano. Oswald was a young man with Marine training. He shot Kennedy, end of story.
But why? Maybe there was a conspiracy. I doubt if he decided to do it alone. I think it's quite likely that other people were involved. We'll never know but we can be sure Oswald shot JFK and was probably the only shooter. That is the most likely truth.
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I don't know or even really care if it was a conspiracy or not. Oswald was in the room where the rounds were fired from his rifle. He then ran away and was later captured.
lazs
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I saw a series of shows on the History channel a couple years ago about the JFK assasination. In one of them a photograph of the grassy gnoll was enhanced using computer technology. The photo clearly showed someone up on the grassy gnoll.
I have never heard that Oswald was an expert marksman. I have always heard that he was a mediocre marksman by Marine standards.
As far as the magic bullet theory goes, it had to break Kennedy's skull, then break a rib in Connaly, then break Connally's wrist, then enter his leg, all this from a bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps. Iirc the majic bullet was relatively undamaged.....after breaking at least 3 bones, I find that a bit hard to believe even considering it had a full metal jacket.
What do I believe about the JFK assasination? I believe we havent been told the truth, nor will we ever be told the truth.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Sigh. So much naivete...so little time.
Fourth, that bullet, after exiting just below his right nipple, came to rest in his leg, its velocity largely spent. Oh, and by the way, bullets often DO fall out of wounds in just such a manner as has been described in Connelly's case. I have found pieces of spent bullets on the back side of deer that have been shot.
Lastly, I have not, in any of my posts, denied that there might have been a conspiracy. The shooting of Oswald by Ruby provides circumstantial evidence of a possible Mob connection.
Nevertheless, there has never been any proof that there was a second shooter.
Your facts are not correct, after the bullet exited from Connelly's chest it struct his wrist (shattering the bone) then struck and came to rest in his leg.
For what it’s worth, I was a combat medic in the 5th Special Forces in VietNam from November 1967 to May 1969. I have both seen and treated gunshot cases. As part of the medical training for Special Forces Medics at that time the Army had us intern in major US cities prior to deployment. I spent 6 months training for care of gunshot wounds in the Downtown Hospital in Harlem, New York City, NY . When I was being trained, I saw anywhere from 2 to 5 gunshot cases a night. And because of the history of VietNam I saw many different kinds of gunshot wounds from all kinds of weapons and all kinds of ammo, some dating back to WWII. I never saw a bullet that had struck bone ( the wrist is a large dense bone) that was not deformed as a result. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Just that I had never seen it and I saw a lot of gunshot wounds in VietNam.
I also know how to read an Xray. I have seen Xrays that are reported to be of Connelly’s shattered wrist. The book “Best Evidence” is worth a look. The Xray I saw contains a lot of bullet fragments ( as you would expect, if the bullet shattered the wrist bone) The weight of the “Magic bullet” is inconsistent with the amount of bullet fragments that were removed and some of which still remain in Connelly.
Lastly your statement that “Nevertheless, there has never been any proff that there was a second shooter”. That statement is just plain wrong. Read the report by The House Assassinations Committee. The findings of that committee, an official government body, charged with the responsibility of re-investigating the JFK assassination, did find that his death was the result of a conspiracy. That two or more shooters were responsible for the assassination. They re-looked at the evidence and found proff of a conspiracy.
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Then, lets say you are right, Oswald did it..then we go down the path a bit further and my overactive conspiracy craked pod is at it again,...
The president was murdered by a former soviet citizen -communist cuban sympathizer from a snipers nest that should have been swept, cleared and maintained throughout the parade.
The 'no conspiracy' policy by the warren commission also ruled out these possibilities without ever considering them....
1.) the secret service agent in charge of the presidents security was involved in the assassination representing either cuba or the USSR. Was he ever investigated or repremanded for his horrific and possibly criminal failure? How could any investigator simply cast this possibility out as 'ho-hum' and 'anybody could have an off day'?
2.)Lee Oswald was acting on behalf of the USSR or Cuba and part of a larger organization within the USA promoting the communist agenda. After all, how many common folk, (non-spies) went from being a US citizen to a USSR citizen back to a US citizen during the cold war? My conspiracy cracked brain would venture to guess, not many, if any besides Lee H Oswald.
I'll admit, it probably is a personal mental defect of mine, I guess my boring old job,my 2.3 kids, my 96 beers per week, is just a little drab for my liking. Maybe Id just like to think that there is an 'underworld' cloak and daggar crowd with ambitions of world domination and the hidden little wars that would take place if it were true are fascinating to me. So , perhaps, I make it true in my own mind to liven things up a bit.
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Some of you could save yourselves a bunch of arguing and watching the show when it comes on next.
These guys recreated the shooting to the "T" using balsitic gel and human "sims" complete w/ bones.
Their bullet came out slightly warped but more or less intact. This whole "magic bullet" stuff is crap from what I saw. The two in the car were not seated in a row, connely was in a jump seat and slightly turned around when he got hit.
any decent marksmen could have done what oswald did that day.
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So WH...
The US GOVT/CIA killed Kennedy...
The US GOVT/CIA faked the moon landings...
The US GOVT/CIA faked the 911 attacks and blamed osama...
Whats else do we poor fools not know about?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Whats else do we poor fools not know about?
Everything around you, everything you thought was real and everything you've ever known is just a huge computer program. Welcome to the Matrix.
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Presidential security went through a major shakeup after the Kennedy assassination. Methods prior to that event were, by modern standards, somewhat lax.
While it is easy to point our fingers at the security personnel who supposedly "blew" their assignments on that fateful day, perhaps the biggest fool was Kennedy himself. Despite the urgings of the Secret Service he insisted on riding around in a convertible.
As to the magic bullet, let me say again that it is impossible to predict what a high velocity slug will do. There are so many differences in metallurgy between production lots of wartime ammunition, and indeed between individual rounds themselves, that it would be safe to say that no two would react the same way under similar circumstances. Some would break into two or three large pieces. Others would literally vaporize. Still others would emerge almost unscathed.
Under the right conditions, a single round could also injure two or more people.
Go on the net and look up the Muchmore film. It was shot from the left side of the limo. Stills from it clearly show blood and brain tissue being blown up and forward, leaving no doubt that the strike came from the rear.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
T
The president was murdered by a former soviet citizen -communist cuban sympathizer from a snipers nest that should have been swept, cleared and maintained throughout the parade.
if it was such a good snipers nest, why are you spouting so much "he couldnt possibly have done it from there" nonsense? all your arguments rely on the CIA being horribly inept...which is unlikely as if they were, you would be speaking russian.
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Originally posted by vorticon
if it was such a good snipers nest, why are you spouting so much "he couldnt possibly have done it from there" nonsense? all your arguments rely on the CIA being horribly inept...which is unlikely as if they were, you would be speaking russian.
You see now vorticon, it was a good snipers nest when it helps prove thatv the CIA was in on it.
Its a bad snipers nest when it helps prove that even a trained marksman like Oswald could not possibly have made the shots.
This is the kind of sophisticated pareallel incongrous logic that one needs to get to the bottom of these tricky CIA lies about these major lies..
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Jee Vulcan, when you say 'oswald may have gotten off more than 3 shots' you are saying, 'there may have been a conspiracy. ' Then you go on to ridicule conspiracy theroists even though you may be one of them.
I do agree with you thogh, people often get involved with such discussions without having educated themselves on the facts.
Yes, thats right, I'm saying Oswald was having a conspiracy with himself :rolleyes: in conspiring to shoot faster than the pleebs of the world say he can.
Perhaps a little http://www.dictionary.com might be a wise move for you.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
As to the magic bullet, let me say again that it is impossible to predict what a high velocity slug will do. There are so many differences in metallurgy between production lots of wartime ammunition, and indeed between individual rounds themselves, that it would be safe to say that no two would react the same way under similar circumstances. Some would break into two or three large pieces. Others would literally vaporize. Still others would emerge almost unscathed.
Well I've seen it done. These guys in australia did it with only slight "anomolies"
Before I watched the show I was convinced there was a second gunman and that there's no way Oswald could have made the shot. After reading some of the "facts" it seems pretty clear to me that it is indeed possible. 6.5 seconds is a lifetime to get 3 shots off. 88 yards using a scope...cmon
(http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/magic-bullet.jpg)
phots like these have been used for years but are in fact grosly inaccurate. JFK's wound was a little higher on the back AND he had his arm up on the side of the car resting his elbow wich changes his posture. Same thing with connaly, he was actually slightly turned around looking back sort of PLUS he wasn't sitting directly in front of JFK he was in a jump sea, thus he was in front of and slightly to the left of JFK instead of right up next to the door.
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How many have been to Dealy Plaza? Ive watched plenty of stuff on the assassination, but actually going to Dealy raised the most doubt for me about the lone gunmen theory. You can stand at the window directly to the right of Oswalds position. I dont get why he didnt shoot the President as he came down the street ( dont know it off the top of my head) towards the school book depository. The president would have been facing Oswald for an extremely easy shot. He could have thrown the rifle out the window and hit thr President as he turned to Oswalds right directly below. It just didnt make sense to me to take the shot where he did. But mybe he was having second thoughts, I dunno.
Standing behind the fence at the grassy knoll raised some serious doubts as well. Its a hell of a lot closer to the street than it appears on TV. That being said, that History channel show seemed very well done and convincing, so im still riding the fence on the whole thing.
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I've been to Dealy Plaza, the whole area is much smaller than it appears in the film. There are trees blocking the area directly below, though they maybe weren't as big then as they were when I was there. Branches hid much of the view except for the angle downhill where the shots were taken.
The grassy knoll fence is about 50 feet from the street IIRC. There is a storm drain opening in the street there directly below the fence as well.
All this is in a compact area, and any shot from any of these locations would have been a close quarter shot.
The decision to not use the bubble top was a last minute thing as I recall from documentaries, and so was the change in route. Pres. Kennedy was warned ahead of time not to go to Dallas, but he went anyway under assurances he was loved by the people of Dallas. I don't know if JFK or his political advisors wanted the top removed, but that turned out to be a tragedy.
The route was announced ahead of time to the public, so there is some question of it being a conspiracy. I think Oswald took advantage of that, though it's possible he was not alone. We'll never know.
Les
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Originally posted by Slash27
How many have been to Dealy Plaza? Ive watched plenty of stuff on the assassination, but actually going to Dealy raised the most doubt for me about the lone gunmen theory. You can stand at the window directly to the right of Oswalds position. I dont get why he didnt shoot the President as he came down the street ( dont know it off the top of my head) towards the school book depository. The president would have been facing Oswald for an extremely easy shot. He could have thrown the rifle out the window and hit thr President as he turned to Oswalds right directly below. It just didnt make sense to me to take the shot where he did. But mybe he was having second thoughts, I dunno.
Standing behind the fence at the grassy knoll raised some serious doubts as well. Its a hell of a lot closer to the street than it appears on TV. That being said, that History channel show seemed very well done and convincing, so im still riding the fence on the whole thing.
Why not shoot him in the face?
Simple, he would far more likely to be spotted by the motorcade if he tried position himself to fire at it from the front. Naturally far more eyes would be looking forward than back.
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Slash,
Oswald probably took the going away shot because it offered an unobstructed view of the President. He would not have got such a view prior to that as the President came down the street toward the plaza.
Also, this view offered an almost perfect "going away" shot which, at that distance, required the shooter to use a mimimum of "lead" in order to hit the target. Since he was shooting from a rest, Oswald had a far less difficult shot than many non-shooting laymen have assumed.
I have always suspected that much of the confusion which has led to the "second gunman" theories was the number of echos that undoubtedly resulted from all the high-rise buildings, the overpass, and the knoll. To those unused to such things, it must have seemed that there were gunmen everywhere. If you've never experienced it, you would not believe how many echos can result from firing a high-powered rifle in an open field bordered by trees.
Having said that, spectators standing near a rifle when it goes off could not mistake it for an echo. Many of the closest spectators immediately pointed to the window of the school book depository as the source of the shots. Those standing furthest from the depository were the most likely to be confused by the echos, at least in my opinion.
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Simple, he would far more likely to be spotted by the motorcade if he tried position himself to fire at it from the front. Naturally far more eyes would be looking forward than back.
Maybe so.
If you've never experienced it, you would not believe how many echos can result from firing a high-powered rifle in an open field bordered by trees.
Are you kidding me? Im from Texas:rolleyes: ...............:D
Heat with Pacino and Deniro captured what high powered rifles going off surrounded by tall buildings must sound like. Not that Ive been in urban combat, just saying though.
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guys... oswald worked at the book depository... he could safely go there with a package and get away with it... I bet he had been up in that window smoking cigs and looking down at cars that went by there and thought... "I bet I could hit anyone in the head with the old 6.5 from here... might go proactice a little with the scope tho.."
It was a pretty easy shot. I have known lefties that used bolt action rifles... they seemed to work em as fast as I did.
The bullet was extremely flattened from the base to about half way up... I have seen better looking bullets that struck dirt banks and rocks at higher velocities.
face it... he did it. I don't know why and don;t know it he was the only one in on it but he did the shooting all by himself.
lazs
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Yes, thats right, I'm saying Oswald was having a conspiracy with himself :rolleyes: in conspiring to shoot faster than the pleebs of the world say he can.
Perhaps a little http://www.dictionary.com might be a wise move for you.
I cant believe the warren commission didnt think of this.
Take a pumpkin at 88 yards. Get your bolt action rifle. Load the chamber aim and fire, reload the chamber via the bolt, aim, fire, reload the chamber, aim fire. From the first fire to the last you have 7 seconds. The commission stated that a minimum of 1.5 seconds is required to actuate the bolt. That is 3 seconds for bolt and 4 seconds for positioning the gun and aiming.
2 seconds per shot for aiming at a moving target.
Lets add 1 shot ...4.5 seconds for bolt 2.5 seconds for aiming, thats 2.5 divided by 3. Thats .833 seconds for positioning the gun and aiming at a moving target at 88 yards throguh oak tree foilage at the last 2 shots.
Hmmm, maybe the warren commission did think of this.
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http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/abrahamzapruderfilm.htm
Well, here is a link that shows the critical head shot. To my eye, the shot came from the front right. This was not the magic bullet, just an ordinary one from a high powered rifle.
Ive just read a very compelling argument about how the magic bullet was perfectly plausable, the guy went throgh a very scientific and beleiveable argument, to systematically eliminate any other possibility outside of the Single bullet theory.
The 2 men were aligned properly for the bullet to exit kennedys throat and enter connally without nearly as dramatic a zig zag as the conspiracy kooks write. The timing anomaly was not addresed, i dont really understand it myself.
I still have problems with it tho.
1) the author took the SBT and worked from there. Took the SBT and made it fit the evidence as opposed to taking the eveidence and concluding the SBT. Kind of like working a maze from the finish to the start. (does it make a difference, i dont know).
2) Addressed the issue of Kennedys back wound being lower than his neck wound by syaing, 'there would have had to be a gunman on the trunk, therefore thats not possible' even though, he used the 'bullets do amazing things' argument to bridge the gaps in his proof of the SBT. In other words, bullets do amazing things when conforms to the official story. If it doesnt reinforce the official story, even a fool can see that that is impossible.
3) Didnt address the botched autopsy that couldve put the whole issue to rest. i.e. bullet paths through the body, trjectory analysis, etc.
For what it is worth, take a look at the film and tell me what you think.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Thats .833 seconds for positioning the gun and aiming at a moving target at 88 yards throguh oak tree foilage at the last 2 shots.
Hmmm, maybe the warren commission did think of this.
Wow, nearly a full second to acquire and aim :rolleyes: thats impossible to do for a trained marine marksmen huh.
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vulcan and wh... get over it... it is not impossible. You can't eliminate thje obvious... that oswald fired his rifle from the book depository window and made a few decent shots and one really crappy one.... bout like a day out shooting.
You guys ever go out and shoot? Us guys that shoot a lot don't see anything atr all strange about it...
lazs
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Lazs..Click the headshot link above and tell me that you believe that the fatal shot came from the back. Say it in black and white.
We see the same pics, but we see two different things. An honest and incurable disagreement.
Then there is no point in arguing the SBT, Oswald may very well have shot the majic bullet, somebody else, in my humble opinion, shot the fatal headshot. There is no way, in my eyes, that that shot came from the back.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Wow, nearly a full second to acquire and aim :rolleyes: thats impossible to do for a trained marine marksmen huh.
Here in the USA vulcan, we dont go by impossible we go by reasonable doubt.
tell me Vulcan, how many shots from a bolt action rifle can you get off in 7 seconds. 45? 50? 100?
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Wh... I don't see what you are talking about? Are you saying that a shot allways forces a person to move away from the impact? That is just wrong. guys get hit with .50 cals and 2mm cannon rounds and shotgun slugs and fall forward toward the impact.
Yes... I am saying in black and white that the rounds came from the 3rd floor of the depository from a 6.5 carcano and that someone who was either oswald or his twin fired the shots... his co workers heard not only the shots but the empty brass hitting the floor above them. Oswald fired one carefully aimed "couldn't miss" shot and then two fairly hasty other shots... one went wild and one hit the mark... about average shooting.
How much have you shot rifles? I am not a good rifle shot but I am pretty sure I could duplicate it.... Hell... bet I could get 2 out of three hits with an off the shelf .357 or .44 mag revolver.
Nothing mysterious about the conclussions of the commission that studied the shyooting... everything was possible and the other possibilities were extremely unlikely and without any tangible proof.
Anything could have happened but there is a 99% chance that it happened exactly the way the warren commision and all the data shows it happened.
You are welcome to your theory.... If you voice it tho.... expect people to snicker at it behind your back.... or... in my case... "in black and white".
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Wh... I don't see what you are talking about? Are you saying that a shot allways forces a person to move away from the impact? That is just wrong. guys get hit with .50 cals and 2mm cannon rounds and shotgun slugs and fall forward toward the impact.
lazs
Oh, so thats the problem. I have never shot a person in the head. All the objects that I have shot have always moved away from the rifle barrel, not towards it. Pumpkins, cans, mailboxes, milkjugs etc.
But, just to make things clear for me, you are saying that kennedys head moved towards the gunshot? And that is what usually happens when a person is shot? Just the opposite of pool ball physics?
To my 'inexperienced in gun physics' eyes, I saw Kennedys head jerk viciously to the rear left as the right front of his head exploded.
My bad, his head jerked viciously TOWARDS the shooter, as is usually the case in people shootings. Thnx. I wish the officials would have pointed this out, it could have saved a buttload of mass confusion. Im so embarrassed.:(
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Do pool balls have muscles in them?
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I have shot lots objects..... pumpkins, watermellons, onions, car parts, bottles, cans etc.
They never go flying backwards away from the direction of the shot. ( well, maybe a can will if you just nick it it the right spot)
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Oswald may very well have shot the majic bullet
I still don't understand why this bullet is considered "magic" It did exactly what a bullet should do.
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Yep, sure as sht. I ran over to my fathers, grabbed his british 303/ Placed a volley ball on a tree stump, shot it, and it at 100 feet and it blew off the stump, one bounce and hit me right in the nose. I'll be dammed. Thank god. Man, all this time i was worried about assssins and conspiracys and what not. Whew.
Wow, life sure is alot simpler now. Simple world for simple people. Thnx guys and :D
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Watch the film closer.. Kennedy's head is pushed forward then recoils back, like anyone's neck would do.. almost like whiplash.
Whitehawk.. aww never mind.. you're too much of a whacko to actually have a discussion with.
Kerry lost.
Take it!
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Yep, sure as sht. I ran over to my fathers, grabbed his british 303/ Placed a volley ball on a tree stump, shot it, and it at 100 feet and it blew off the stump, one bounce and hit me right in the nose. I'll be dammed. Thank god. Man, all this time i was worried about assssins and conspiracys and what not. Whew.
Wow, life sure is alot simpler now. Simple world for simple people. Thnx guys and :D
You seem to fail to grasp fundemental physics. The head is attached to the body, via the neck, bones and a whole lot of muscle, plus the nervous system hold it all together. Expecting the result to be simplified reaction is something I'd expect a "consipiracy theorist" to go for.
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Whitehawk,
Oswald only had to work the bolt twice. When Kennedy's limo first appeared, he already had a round chambered. Set the clock to zero...bam, first shot...work the bolt...bam...second shot 3 to 4 seconds later...work the bolt...bam...the third shot also approximately 3 to four seconds later.
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Typical gunshot wound: entry wound small and fairly clean. Exit wound generally rather large and messy. Which direction his head "appeared" to jerk is immaterial.
kbman
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Whitehawk,
Oswald only had to work the bolt twice. When Kennedy's limo first appeared, he already had a round chambered. Set the clock to zero...bam, first shot...work the bolt...bam...second shot 3 to 4 seconds later...work the bolt...bam...the third shot also approximately 3 to four seconds later.
most people don't realize that in this kind of situation 6.5 seconds is in fact a life time.
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Add to the formula the limo driver accelerating...
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Doesnt it really say it all when these conspiracy kooks think its more likely that Kennedy was shot from a street surface level sewer cover grate, and all that firing position implies, than from behind in an easy shooting position above...
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Vulcan,
The limo driver did not begin accelerating until after the President was hit. Jackie had time to crawl back across the trunk and get a security guard to climb onto the limo...and pick up a piece of the President's brain.
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Oh, by the way, the 6.5 carcano is a very low recoil round. It is possible with a 4 x scope to fire 3 shots at a moving target and never lose the sight picture.
I regularly hunt with a 6.5x55mm Swedish mauser cartridge, a round that is very similar to the 6.5 carcano. It actually has slightly greater recoil than the carcano...but it is still a very manageable cartridge and easy to keep on target after a shot.
By no stretch of the imagination was Oswald undergunned.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Vulcan,
The limo driver did not begin accelerating until after the President was hit. Jackie had time to crawl back across the trunk and get a security guard to climb onto the limo...and pick up a piece of the President's brain.
That's is a fact Vulcan, She recovered either a large part of his Skull bone or part of his brain (or both) from the left rear part of the trunk of the limo and is captured in the film.
If the Kill shot came from the back (Oswald shooting down and from behind) why was anything on the trunk of the car, shouldn't it have been blown into the front of the car or out of the car to his right front, if the shot came from behind, striking the Occipital bone (back of the head) and exited from the right prattle bone(just in front of JFK's right ear, as the Warren Report states)?
That one segment of the film makes me believe that the fatal head shot came from his right front and exited the back of his skull, blowing the Occipital bone out and away from the back of his skull leaving bone and brain matter on the left read of the limo.
On November 22, Doctors at Parkland Hospital reported treating JFK for a massive exit wound to the Occipital area of his skull, That’s the back of his head. By the way, none of the doctors that acutally treated JFK that day appeared in front of the Warren Commission, their bosses did.
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I've said this before in another thread on the same subject, but I can say it again.
Ive been in the army one way or another since I was 15, and I have used bolt-action rifles alot both in the military and as a civilian. And if you can find me a guy who puts three rounds in a 1/2 moving target at 100+ meters under seven seconds with a bolt-action rifle and scope, I will be very impressed. Personally I dont think anyone can do that. Marine or not. Most people would be hard pressed to hit a stationary elephant at 100 meters under those conditions.
And btw, the "Oswald was a Marine and OMG the Marines are so good"-argument is just plain silly.
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hortlund... he didn't put three rounds into a moving target in 7 seconds... he put on round into a slowly moving away from him target and then fired 2 more shots in 7 seconds one of which actually hit the target.
2 shots in 7 seconds.. one decent and one lousy. you saying you couldn't take 2 shots in 7 seconds with a bolt action scoped rifle and hit a target that was slowly moving away from you at less than 100 yards.... hit that man sized target.... once out of two times?
Wh... shoot pumkins all day.. they don't have muscles and are just sitting there but, even then... a lot of em will explode and then fall forward off the table... tilt the table forward just slightly and they will allmost all fall forward.
you want to believe that some loony couldn't just walk on up to a good sniper position and kill one of the kennedies... I don't think there ever was a decent kennedy but that is beside the point... What the warren commision says happened is probly about exactly like it happened. nothing about it is impossible and nothing else has any tangible proof whatsoever.
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Originally posted by lazs2
hortlund... he didn't put three rounds into a moving target in 7 seconds... he put on round into a slowly moving away from him target and then fired 2 more shots in 7 seconds one of which actually hit the target.
2 shots in 7 seconds.. one decent and one lousy. you saying you couldn't take 2 shots in 7 seconds with a bolt action scoped rifle and hit a target that was slowly moving away from you at less than 100 yards.... hit that man sized target.... once out of two times?
[/b]
Well, its a scoped rifle, so it will take a bit longer to aquire target after each shot. First shot was the best aimed shot, and if anything is truly strange with the lone gunman theory its the fact that the first shot wasnt fatal. Second missed everything, and the third was a hit.
The seven second clock probably starts ticking at the fist shot, meaning that you have to account for recoil and bolt action movement before shot nr two.
So the sequence of events for the shooter should be
recoil, bolt action movement, re-aquire target, aim, shoot,
recoil, bolt action movement, re-aquire target, aim, shoot.
All of this by a left-handed shooter with a normal (right handed) bolt action rifle, all of this under 7 seconds.
I doubt it. *shrug*
Wh... shoot pumkins all day.. they don't have muscles and are just sitting there but, even then... a lot of em will explode and then fall forward off the table... tilt the table forward just slightly and they will allmost all fall forward.
you want to believe that some loony couldn't just walk on up to a good sniper position and kill one of the kennedies... I don't think there ever was a decent kennedy but that is beside the point... What the warren commision says happened is probly about exactly like it happened. nothing about it is impossible and nothing else has any tangible proof whatsoever.
I dunno lazs, I havent said anything about the head movement, bodies will act strange when high-speed projectiles enter them.
What I find odd with the warren-commission findings is the 3 aimed shots in under 7 seconds-part. I've used bolt-action rifles enough to know that that part is improbable as hell. Fact is, I seriously doubt that many of the guys on this message board could get off 3 shots at all with a bolt-action rifle in under 7 seconds, but thats another story.
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It's been stated before that the Carcano is a low-recoil weapon. That and the fact that the bolt was well worn from use, equalling a smooth backstroke and forestroke, woudl mean the sight picture would not move much at all once the round was fired and chambered.
Since Oswald was a Marine sniper, it's doubtful he would have moved his eye from the scope to chamber a new round like most people think he did. He probably managed to keep his target centered as he worked the bolt and compensated for the recoil. His first shot was not fatal but it went right where he aimed it. His second shot was hastly because he was nervous and jittry, and most likely his misjudged the speed of the limo and ended up shooting wide. His third shot was the one that blew Kennedy's head all over the limo, and that shot was probably just as hasty but Oswald had managed to readjust his aim. His second shot going wide was probably him assuming the limo driver was speeding up when in fact he had no idea the president was it.
I myself can fire 3 shots in 7 seconds. I can do it with a .22 and with a .30-06. I am by no means a trained shooter and there is no way I could hit a target with all three, but I can do it. It's really not that hard to do.
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Ok. Lets assume that Oswald was the lone shooter. Who put him up to it, and why did Jack Ruby shoot him? Also, why did so many police respond to the movie theatre call?
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Interesting stuff Vulcan. In the movie "JFK", I think they show Oswald operating the bolt with his left hand.
Nevertheless, I certainly could not fire 3 aimed shots in 6.5 seconds with a bolt action rifle without at least months of practice.
Several years ago at the Second Chance combat shoot (used to be held up in Michigan) they had a little contest, to see who could duplicate the event. Over 60 guys shot the same model as Oswald, with the same scope mounted.
Starting with a loaded carcano, I did it in 6.1 seconds, all three hits on the target at 100 yards. I was NOT the fastest shooter there--the winner did it in about 5.5 seconds!
More than 50% of those who tried did it faster than 6.5 seconds. Of course, most of the guys had never handled that rifle before. The carcano is an awesome carbine--very fast to manipulate, smooth, and handy. Oswald could easily have gotten those shots off, and made the hits he did.
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yup.... and that is all there is to it. It is easily done.
I think that people like stone are exploiting the fact that most people don't know much about firearms and are using that to play you guys like a fiddle.
michelle moore does the same thing... they feed the desires of those who see conspiracy in everything and don't really have any personal knowlege about the subject matter and then....
lie to you.
lazs
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The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is the piece of brain/skull being on the back of the limo. Does anyone of an explanation for that?
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thrawn....shoot stuff.... pieces go everywhere. Animals, pumpkins.... even gallon jugs full of frozen water .... it goes everywhere.
lazs
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Thanks.
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Everyone keeps talking about three shots. That's just wrong. Fact: 4 shots were fired. FACT: Shot 1, Connelly reported hearing a rifle shot and turning in his seat to look back at the President. The first shot missed everyone in the car, struck the pavment and wounded a bystander in the leg. That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
Shot 2, struck JFK in the back, passed through him and struck Connelly ( the magic bullet). That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
Shot 3 missed everyone and struck the windsheild frame, cracking the right front windshild. That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
Shot 4 Struck JFK in the head, the fatal head shot. That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
That's 4 shots in 6.5 seconds not 3. Using a $60. bolt action rifle.
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Originally posted by texace
It's been stated before that the Carcano is a low-recoil weapon. That and the fact that the bolt was well worn from use, equalling a smooth backstroke and forestroke, woudl mean the sight picture would not move much at all once the round was fired and chambered.
[/b]
Im sorry, but Im gonna call BS on this one.
"Low recoil rifle that let the shooter keep the target in the scope during the recoil" LOL yeah right. He was shooting prone too remember... And the well oiled worn down mechanism just flashed through the motions like a oiled lighting...
Basically when you feel a need to construct arguments like that, then maybe you should reflect over whether you are arguing on the wrong side of the issue or not...
I myself can fire 3 shots in 7 seconds. I can do it with a .22 and with a .30-06. I am by no means a trained shooter and there is no way I could hit a target with all three, but I can do it. It's really not that hard to do.
Like I said, I honestly dont think you would be able to hit a stationary elephant at 100 meters with shots 2 and 3 and do it inside 7 seconds. This is not meant to diminish your shooting abilities or anything. But like I said, I have been using bolt action rifles fairly often for more than 15 years, and I seriously doubt it can be done.
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4th shot is inconclusive as not every witness that was interviewed recalled hearing 4 shots. Even if there was a fourth shot its still within the realm of possibility that LHO could have gotten off 4 shots within the time frame previously specified with that weapon.
Again it was a conspiracy to end Kennedy's life and time in office...and yes there was more than one person involved only there was a single shooter....Just my opinion and I was a former multiple shooter theory believer until I saw this show the other week.
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there is no credible evidence of another shooter. There is tons of credible, plausable and possible eveidence that oswald was the lone shooter.
It was such an easy shot that there would be no need for a risky backup shooter in any case even if there were a conspiracy.
and... I have shot a 6.5 it makes a 7x57 mauser seem like a hard kicking gun and that (7x57)is considered a womans gun... It has a very smooth bolt besides... flat shooting... a pretty good choice for the intended purpose.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Like I said, I honestly dont think you would be able to hit a stationary elephant at 100 meters with shots 2 and 3 and do it inside 7 seconds. This is not meant to diminish your shooting abilities or anything. But like I said, I have been using bolt action rifles fairly often for more than 15 years, and I seriously doubt it can be done. [/B]
1st time I ever fired a bolt action larger then a .22, was with my K98. I hit a tuna can at 30 meters and hit it again as it hit the ground 2 seconds later.
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Originally posted by Reschke
4th shot is inconclusive as not every witness that was interviewed recalled hearing 4 shots. Even if there was a fourth shot its still within the realm of possibility that LHO could have gotten off 4 shots within the time frame previously specified with that weapon.
Again it was a conspiracy to end Kennedy's life and time in office...and yes there was more than one person involved only there was a single shooter....Just my opinion and I was a former multiple shooter theory believer until I saw this show the other week.
The total number of shots is not inconclusive. Read the Warren Commission Report completly. The evidence shows the number of bullet and bullet fragments recovered and accounts for 4 bullets. Shot 1 hit the pavement and struct the bystander. Shot 2 hit JFK and Connelly, shot 3 struck the front windshield and cracked the front right windshield ( they recovered that bullet).
shot 4 was the head shot. The Warren Commission Report one of two official government versions of the murder of JFK documents 4 shots. The House Committee Report in 1978 found as may as 5 shots may have been fired. Given that all the experts say that the file shows a total time of 6.5 seconds for the entire event and everyone says it takes 1.5 seconds just to work the bolt action on the rifle. Lets see that's three complete bolt actions, at 1.5 seconds for a total of 4.5 seconds just to work the actions. that leaves a total of 2 seconds to aquire aim and fire. Maybe that's why he was such a bad shot and only hit 50% of the time, or maybe he only fired the first shot and others fired the rest. That was the conclusion of the House Commission Report.
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Lazs being a gun experten why does his entry wound look like a exit wound...
anyone?
Ive never seen a wound like that.. then again anything is possible right?
what type of rifle round makes a bigger wound on contact before it mushrooms... maybe the round shattered on his skull wtf.. talk about hard headed.. :eek:
Enlighten me..
Doctoryo
PS: Kennedy is dead whats done is done ... just the wound, dead attacker, and other evidence dont match the official story, "E Tu Brutus"...... we are neo rome you know.. and he pissed off alot of people..
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The Warren Commission was a joke.
And one of the members of that commissin went on to become president. Gerald Ford.
;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn....shoot stuff.... pieces go everywhere. Animals, pumpkins.... even gallon jugs full of frozen water .... it goes everywhere.
lazs
Plus the open limo was moving forward.
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Originally posted by Traveler
Everyone keeps talking about three shots. That's just wrong. Fact: 4 shots were fired. FACT: Shot 1, Connelly reported hearing a rifle shot and turning in his seat to look back at the President. The first shot missed everyone in the car, struck the pavment and wounded a bystander in the leg. That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
Shot 2, struck JFK in the back, passed through him and struck Connelly ( the magic bullet). That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
Shot 3 missed everyone and struck the windsheild frame, cracking the right front windshild. That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
Shot 4 Struck JFK in the head, the fatal head shot. That's fact (Warren Commission Report)
That's 4 shots in 6.5 seconds not 3. Using a $60. bolt action rifle.
There's was no factual finding of a 4th shot :
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jpotato peelinfo/wcr3.htm
Number of Shots
The consensus among the witnesses at the scene was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shots, while others testified that they heard four and perhaps as many as five or six shots. The difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of gunshots required careful scrutiny of all of this testimony regarding the number of shots. The firing of a bullet causes a number of noises: the muzzle blast, caused by the smashing of the hot gases which propel the bullet into the relatively stable air at the gun's muzzle; the noise of the bullet, caused by the shock wave built up ahead of the bullet's nose as it travels through the air; and the noise caused by the impact of the bullet on its target. Each noise can be quite sharp and may be perceived as a separate shot. The tall buildings in the area might have further distorted the sound.
The physical and other evidence examined by the Commission compels the conclusion that at least two shots were fired. As discussed previously, the nearly whole bullet discovered at Parkland Hospital and the two larger fragments found in the Presidential automobile, which were identified as coming from the assassination rifle, came from at least two separate bullets and possibly from three. The most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same rifle that fired the bullets which caused the wounds. It is possible that the assassin carried an empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same shot. Soon after the three empty cartridges were found, officials at the scene decided that three shots were fired, and that conclusion was widely circulated by the press. The eyewitness testimony may be subconsciously colored by the extensive publicity given the conclusion that three shots were fired. Nevertheless, the preponderance of the evidence, in particular the three spent cartridges, led the Commission to conclude that there were three shots fired.
The Shot That Missed
From the initial findings that (a) one shot passed through the President's neck and then most probably passed through the Governor's body, (b) a subsequent shot penetrated the President's head, (c) no other shot struck any part of the automobile, and (d) three shots were fired, it follows that one shot probably missed the car and its occupants. The evidence is inconclusive as to whether it was the first, second, or third shot which missed.
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The First Shot
If the first shot missed, the assassin perhaps missed in an effort to fire a hurried shot before the President passed under the oak tree, or possibly he fired as the President passed under the tree and the tree obstructed his view. The bullet might have struck a portion of the tree and been completely deflected. On the other hand, the greatest cause for doubt that the first shot missed is the improbability that the same marksman who twice hit a moving target would be so inaccurate on the first and closest of his shots as to miss completely, not only the target, but the large automobile.
Some support for the contention that the first shot missed is found in the statement of Secret Service Agent Glen A. Bennett, stationed in the right rear seat of the President's follow-up car, who heard a sound like a firecracker as the motorcade proceeded down Elm Street. At that moment, Agent Bennett stated:
...I looked at the back of the President. I heard another firecracker noise and saw that shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head.
Substantial weight may be given Bennett's observations. Although his formal statement was dated November 23, 1963, his notes indicate that he recorded what he saw and heard at 5:30 p.m., November 1963, on the airplane en route back to Washington, prior to the autopsy, when it was not yet. known that the President had been hit in the back. It is possible, of course, that Bennett did not observe the hole in the President's back, which might have been there immediately after the first noise.
Governor Connally's testimony supports the view that the first shot missed, because he stated that he heard a shot, turned slightly to his right, and, as he started to turn back toward his left, was struck by the second bullet. He never saw the President during the shooting sequence, and it is entirely possible that he heard the missed shot and that both men were struck by the second bullet. Mrs. Connally testified that after the first shot she turned and saw the President's hands moving toward his throat, as seen in the films at frame 225. However, Mrs. Payne further stated that she thought her husband was hit immediately thereafter by the second bullet. If the same bullet struck both the President and the Governor, it is entirely possible that she saw the President's movements at the same time as she heard the second shot. Her testimony, therefore, does not preclude the possibility of the first shot having missed.
Other eyewitness testimony, however, supports the conclusion that the first of the shots fired hit the President. As discussed in chapter II, Special Agent Hill's testimony indicates that the President was hit by the first shot and that the head injury was caused by a second shot which followed about 5 seconds later. James W. Altgens, a photographer in Dallas for the Associated Press, had stationed himself on Elm Street opposite the Depository to take pictures of the passing motorcade. Altgens took a widely circulated photograph which showed President Kennedy reacting to the first of the two shots which hit him. (See Commission Exhibit No. 900, p. 113.) According to Altgens, he snapped the picture "almost simultaneously" with a shot which he is confident was the first one fired. Comparison of his photograph with the Zapruder film, however, revealed that Altgens took his picture at approximately the same moment as frame 255 of the movie, 30 to 45 frames (approximately 2 seconds) later than the point at which the President was shot in the neck. (See Commission Exhibit No. 901, p. 114.) Another photographer, Phillip L. Willis, snapped a picture at a time which he also asserts was simultaneous with the first shot. Analysis of his photograph revealed that it was taken at approximately frame 210 of the Zapruder film, which was the approximate time of the shot that probably hit the President and the Governor. If Willis accurately recalled that there were no previous shots, this would be strong evidence that the first shot did not miss.
If the first shot did not miss, there must be an explanation for Governor Connally's recollection that he was not hit by it. There was, conceivably, a delayed reaction between the time the bullet struck him and the time he realized that he was hit, despite the fact that the bullet struck a glancing blow to a rib and penetrated his wrist bone. The Governor did not even know that he had been struck in the wrist or in the thigh until he regained consciousness in the hospital the next day. Moreover, he testified that he did not hear what he thought was the second shot, although he did hear a subsequent shot which coincided with the shattering of the President's head. One possibility, therefore, would be a sequence in which the Governor heard the first shot, did not immediately feel the penetration of the bullet,
Commission Exhibit No. 900
Commission Exhibit No. 901
then felt the delayed reaction of the impact on his back, later heard the shot which shattered the President's head, and then lost consciousness without hearing a third shot which might have occurred later.
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The Second Shot
The possibility that the second shot missed is consistent with the elapsed time between the two shots that hit their mark. From the timing evidenced by the Zapruder films, there was an interval of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds between the shot which struck President Kennedy's neck (between frames 210 to 225) and the shot which struck his head at frame 813. Since a minimum of 2.3 seconds must elapse between shots, a bullet could have been fired from the rifle and missed during this interval. This possibility was buttressed by the testimony of witnesses who claimed that the shots were evenly spaced, since a second shot occurring within an interval of approximately 5 seconds would have to be almost exactly midway in this period. If Altgens' recollection is correct that he snapped his picture at the same moment as he heard a shot, then it is possible that he heard a second shot which missed, since a shot fired 2.3 seconds before he took his picture at frame 255 could have hit the President at about frame 213.
On the other hand, a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced. Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together, although some believed that it was the first and second which were bunched. To the extent that reliance can be placed on recollection of witnesses as to the spacing of the shots, the testimony that the shots were not evenly spaced would militate against a second shot missing. Another factor arguing against the second shot missing is that the gunman would have been shooting at very near the minimum allowable time to have fired the three shots within 4.8 to 5.6 seconds, although it was entirely possible for him to have done so. (See ch. IV, pp. 188-194.)
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The Third Shot
The last possibility, of course, is that it was the third shot which missed. This conclusion conforms most easily with the probability that the assassin would most likely have missed the farthest shot, particularly since there was an acceleration of the automobile after the shot which struck the President's head. The limousine also changed direction by following the curve to the right, whereas previously it had been proceeding in almost a straight line with a rifle protruding from the sixth-floor window of the Depository Building.
One must consider, however, the testimony of the witnesses who described the head shot as the concluding event in the assassination sequence. Illustrative is the testimony of Associated Press photographer Altgens, who had an excellent vantage point near the President's car. He recalled that the shot which hit the President's head "was the last shotthat much I will say with a great degree of certainty." On the other hand, Emmett J. Hudson, the grounds-keeper of Dealey Plaza, testified that from his position on Elm Street, midway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass, he heard a third shot after the shot which hit the President in the head. In addition, Mrs. Kennedy's testimony indicated that neither the first nor the second shot missed. Immediately after the first noise she turned, because of the Governor's yell, and saw her husband raise his hand to his forehead. Then the second shot struck the President's head.
Some evidence suggested that a third shot may have entirely missed and hit the turf or street by the Triple Underpass. Royce G. Skelton, who watched the motorcade from the railroad bridge, testified that after two shots "the car came on down close to the Triple Underpass" and an additional shot "hit in the left front of the President's car on the cement." Skelton thought that there had been a total of four shots, either the third or fourth of which hit in the vicinity of the underpass. Dallas Patrolman J. W. Foster, who was also on the Triple Underpass, testified that a shot hit the turf near a manhole cover in the vicinity of the underpass. Examination of this area, however, disclosed no indication that a bullet struck at the locations indicated by Skelton or Foster.
At a different location in Dealey Plaza, the evidence indicated that a bullet fragment did hit the street. James T. Tague, who got out of his car to watch the motorcade from a position between Commerce and Main Streets near the Triple Underpass, was hit on the cheek by an object during the shooting. Within a few minutes Tague reported this to Deputy Sheriff Eddy R. Walthers, who was examining the area to see if any bullets had struck the turf. Walthers immediately started to search where Tague had been standing and located a place on the south curb of Main Street where it appeared a bullet had hit the cement. According to Tague, "There was a mark quite obviously. that was a bullet, and it was very fresh." In Tague's opinion, it was the second shot which caused the mark, since he thinks he heard the third shot after he was hit in the face. This incident appears to have been recorded in the contemporaneous report of Dallas Patrolman L. L. Hill, who radioed in around 12:40 p.m.: "I have one guy that was possibly hit by a ricochet from the bullet off the concrete." Scientific examination of the mark on the south curb of Main Street by FBI experts disclosed metal smears which, "were spectrographically determined to be essentially lead with a trace of antimony." The mark on the curb could have originated from the lead core of a bullet but the absence of copper precluded "the possibility that the mark on the curbing section was made by an unmutilated military full metal-jacketed bullet such as the bullet from Governor Connally's stretcher."
It is true that the noise of a subsequent shot might have been drowned out by the siren on the Secret Service follow-up car immediately after the head shot, or the dramatic effect of the head shot might have caused so much confusion that the memory of subsequent events was blurred. Nevertheless, the preponderance of the eyewitness testimony that the head shot was the final shot must be weighed in any determination as to whether it was the third shot that missed. Even if it were caused by a bullet fragment, the mark on the south curb of Main Street cannot be identified conclusively with any of the three shots fired. Under the circumstances it might have come from the bullet which hit the President's head, or it might have been a product of the fragmentation of the missed shot upon hitting some other object in the area. Since he did not observe any of the shots striking the President, Tague's testimony that the second shot, rather than the third, caused the scratch on his cheek, does not assist in limiting the possibilities.
The wide range of possibilities and the existence of conflicting testimony, when coupled with the impossibility of scientific verification, precludes a conclusive finding by the Commission as to which shot missed.
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Time Span of Shots
Witnesses at the assassination scene said that the shots were fired within a few seconds, with the general estimate being 5 to 6 seconds. That approximation was most probably based on the earlier publicized reports that the first shot struck the President in the neck, the second wounded the Governor and the third shattered the President's head, with the time span from the neck to the head shots on the President being approximately 5 seconds. As previously indicated, the time span between the shot entering the back of the President's neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5 seconds. If the second shot missed, then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots. If either the first or third shots missed, then a minimum of 2.3 seconds (necessary to operate the rifle) must be added to the time span of the shots which hit, giving a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots. If more than 2.3 seconds elapsed between a shot that missed and one that hit, then the time span would be correspondingly increased.
Conclusion
Based on the evidence analyzed in this chapter, the Commission has concluded that the shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the sixth-floor window at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Two bullets probably caused all the wounds suffered by President Kennedy and Governor Connally. Since the preponderance of the evidence indicated that three shots were fired, the Commission concluded that one shot probably missed the Presidential limousine and its occupants, and that the three shots were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds.
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Someone else tells a very different tale:
"Uncle B.S., where were you on November 22nd, 1963?"
"November 22nd, 1963, let me think a second. That's the date where everyone's supposed to remember where they was. I was working in a school book depository in Dallas, Texas. Haughton-Mithlan had just come out with that new math and they had them real thick math books, and it was hard to move all them math books by myself so I said 'Y'all gotta get someone in here to help me with these boxes.' And they hired a guy named Harvey-something. I can't think of his name.
Well he had been in the Marine Corp and I, of course, in the Navy for 12 years. He kept goin' on about how much better a shot the Marines were than the Naval forces. So I said 'I tell you what, you little pinko-commie bastard! Today at lunch you go back to your boarding house and bring back your rifle. I got two tickets to the Texas Theatre says you can't hit that manhole cover down there by that grassy knoll.'
Well he done cracked off 4 shots...damned if the President of the United States didn't happen to drive by at that exact moment.
We felt bad about that."
:D
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his best shot should of been taken when the car was coming at him, If he was alone.
he wasn't alone, hence he waited for his time to shot in the sequence...
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Oswald was not an expert marksman, he barely qualified for Sharpshooter status on a system of marksman/sharpshooter/expert he scored 212, 210 being the required score for sharpshooter status. I dont believe he had the required skill to be trained as a sniper either, although so far I am having difficulty finding out exactly what his job as a Marine was.
While I was in the service I qualified as *expert* with the M-16, I sincerely doubt I could have fired 3 aimed shots in 6.5 seconds and hit my target at the same time. I also one time ( a LOT of luck involved heh) hit a thumbtack at 100 yards using a Remington model 700 7MM Mag and 160 grain bullet. The rifle had a Leupold 3 X 9 scope mounted on it. I was firing from a bench rest at the time.
http://www.fiftiesweb.com/kennedy/lee-harvey-oswald.htm
According to the Warren Report, "Oswald was trained in the use of the M-1 rifle. His practice scores were not very good, but when his company fired for record on December 21, he scored 212, 2 points above the score necessary to qualify as a "sharpshooter" on a marksman/sharpshooter/expert scale.
It's interesting to note that in 1963 there was no federal law that made it illegal to kill a US president so Oswald would have had to be tryed in Dallas for murder.
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deleted for duplicate
MiG
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Whats so hard about this shot?
Simulated shooting viewpoint
(http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/TINY_ASSASINVIEW.jpg)
Actual shooting viewpoint
(http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/locales/SMALL_oview.jpg)
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deleted for duplicate
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Originally posted by Elfie
so far I am having difficulty finding out exactly what his job as a Marine was.
Try Radar Ops, stationed somewhere in Japon...had something to do with U2's
interesting read afterward
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Originally posted by SLO
his best shot should of been taken when the car was coming at him, If he was alone.
How on earth do you conlude this?
If he tried to shoot form the front he would be much more likely to get spotted by all they eyes in the motorcde..
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I saw a show a couple of years ago...think it was the History Channel.
They created a duplicate of the whole shooting scene.
and a shooter using the same gun and a similar car with dummys in it. The shooter was an expert I *think*, but said the shots were not dificult.
The shooter had the same angle and view as in the original event and the car traveled the same path at the same speed.
The shooter was easily able to hit the "president" at least 3 times, over and over again within the time interval of the orginal shots.
He even stated that the going away shots were the easiest as the target was stable, traveling pretty much in a straight line and going away, requiring little effort to hit.
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a skull is hard and curved.... what the entrance and exit wounds look like depends on where it was hit and at what angle and where and what angle it exited from.
Most guys here can hit a target the size of a human upper torso at less than 100 yards with a scoped or open sighted rifle in that time frame pretty eaisly as related by the marksmen who actually tried it.
heck... Like I said... I could do it with an off the shelf .357 or .44 mag revolver and factory ammo.
lazs
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Proof! (http://www.theonion.com/history/index.php?issue=4047)
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Most guys here can hit a target the size of a human upper torso at less than 100 yards with a scoped or open sighted rifle in that time frame pretty eaisly as related by the marksmen who actually tried it.
Moving targets whether they are going away, coming at you, or crossing are much more difficult to hit than stationary targets on a range. You lazs, as an experienced shooter know this. Oswald was in no way an *expert shot*, he was at best...average.
For me personally I find the *coming at you* shot the easiest (even though alot of experts say that is the hardest shot) with the going away shot the next easiest.
Slo, thanks for that info, did you have a link for that info by chance?
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elfie... it really wasn't that great of shooting. Many people have tried it for themselves and found out just how easy it was.
Like I said... I could do it with a revolver.
lazs
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Kennedy wasn't the first person that oswald tried to assisinate with that same rifle. IMO he was definitely a shooter, probably the only one.
But what I'm undecided on is if he was just a borderline cucko like mcveigh, or a borderline cucko that the ussr took advantage of.
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The glaring question in my mind ever since way back when has been "Why?"
I refer to the fact that LBJ decided to seal the records of the Warren Commission investigation.
I've never understood that. It does make me suspect there were issues that related to national security, and the only reason I can imagine for that was that there was indeed a conspiracy that involved either elements of our own government or a foreign one.
culero
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Originally posted by Suave
Kennedy wasn't the first person that oswald tried to assisinate with that same rifle. IMO he was definitely a shooter, probably the only one.
But what I'm undecided on is if he was just a borderline cucko like mcveigh, or a borderline cucko that the ussr took advantage of.
Khrushchev to order assasination of JFK ?
Total nonsense !
Fidel ? Maybe.
LBJ ? Maybe.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
If you believe the real people eyewitnesses that saw officer tippet murdered, there were 2 guys assalting him, and the shooter was much larger than oswald. Countless eyewitnesses were disregarded and ignored (and murdered) when they're story conflicted with the 'official' story.
A late friend of mine and great scuba instructor Jack Tatum was am eye witness to the tippitt killing and he says he saw Oswald shot officer Tippet.
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/view/
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By a matter of conincidence, I know the guy who botched the autopsy.
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if you want a 24/7 veiw from the snipers perch clicky (http://www.earthcam.com/jfk/)