Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CptTrips on November 23, 2004, 12:05:47 PM
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A friend of mine mentioned to me the other day that the french charge us money to maintain the American graves at Normandy.
Is this true? Can anyone confirm this? I've Googled but have not found any direct confirmation. I find that a little hard to believe, even for the french.
Wab
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Yes- the French charge us money for grave maintenance. They also charge rent for the Statue of Liberty and they fart in our general direction.
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Are you saying that it isn't true?
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Hes talking, but not saying anything - dont give it a second thought.
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Are you saying that it isn't true?
What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if it's true or not- this Thread will deterorate into a French-bashing one within twenty posts.
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Actually it does matter to me if its true or not. But thanks for your input.
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Actually it does matter to me if its true or not. But thanks for your input.
Wab
OK, assuming it's true, so what? C'mon c'mon Wab, get to the moral outrage part of this Thread- I don't have all day.
Frankly the cemetaries are American territory, IMO. Just like our Embassy. And yes, we pay the French maids for cleaning the Embassy, too.
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IIRC, there's a division of the State Department that is responsible for foreign cemeteries. Of course, they probably contract the work out to the locals, so you can still be hang on to your indignation.
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Actually I'd prefer not to assume its true. I found the claim incredulous. Not finding any Google reference suggests its not, but before I call BS I'd like to know I'm on solid ground.
I don't like the french, but the one classy thing I thought they did was provide this monument to all the thousands of American boys that died on their beaches trying to liberate their country. While individual people tend to forget the sacrifices others have made for them, institutions tend to have a longer memory. However, if their making a profit off it, it sorta make that argument seem rediculous.
Thanks,
Wab
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Originally posted by Tarmac
IIRC, there's a division of the State Department that is responsible for foreign cemeteries. Of course, they probably contract the work out to the locals, so you can still be hang on to your indignation.
Thanks for the info. Do you know if they lease us the ground or is it given?
And I don't believe I've expressed any indignation.
Wab
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§ 2104. Military cemeteries in foreign countries
Release date: 2003-05-29
When, as a result of combat operations, the Armed Forces establish military cemeteries in zones of operations outside the United States and the territories and possessions of the United States, the American Battle Monuments Commission and the Secretary of the Army, immediately on the cessation of hostilities, shall decide which of the cemeteries will become permanent cemeteries or, if they decide it is desirable, shall select new sites for the cemeteries at any other location. The Commission is solely responsible for the design and construction of the permanent cemeteries, and of all buildings, plantings, headstones, and other permanent improvements incidental to the cemeteries, except that—
(1) the Armed Forces are responsible for maintaining the permanent cemeteries until the Commission declares its readiness to assume the authorized administrative duties and powers;
(2) all construction undertaken by the Armed Forces in establishing and maintaining the cemetery prior to its transfer to the Commission shall be nonpermanent;
(3) burials and reburials by the Armed Forces shall be carried out in accordance with plans prepared by the Commission; and
(4) the Armed Forces have the right to re-enter a cemetery transferred to the Commission to exhume or re-inter a body if they decide it is necessary.
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"I don't like the french, but the one classy thing I thought they did was provide this monument to all the thousands of American boys that died on their beaches trying to liberate their country. While individual people tend to forget the sacrifices others have made for them, institutions tend to have a longer memory."
Ah...good, good...now we're getting to the moral indignation part.
Thanks for hurrying it up for me Wab.
Now get in here, Bodhi, Nubob and Mazz- we have a short week so we need to get this pigpile done by Thursday..
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The Commission administers, operates, and maintains twenty-four permanent American burial grounds on foreign soil. Presently there are 124,917 U.S. War Dead interred at these cemeteries, 30,922 of World War I, 93,245 of World War II and 750 of the Mexican War. Additionally 6,010 American veterans and others are interred in the Mexico City and Corozal American Cemeteries. For details about these cemeteries click on the link to the right. The following maps are available:
Eastern France, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg
Western France and England
Italy and Southern France
Central Pacific - Hawaii and Guadalcanal
Western Pacific - Philippines and New Guinea
http://www.abmc.gov/abmc2.htm
I would say that the answer to your question is NO, the french do not charge us to maintain our cemeteraries, or lease the land to us.
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While individual people tend to forget the sacrifices others have made for them
Not much for sticking up for the French but if it wasn't for them, would we be who we are today. They are the ones who helped us win our independance.
68Parker
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Ah...good, good...now we're getting to the moral indignation part.
The indignation was against the idea that the french goverment only maintained the graves because we payed them. I assumed the french did it out of respect. To simplify it for you, in the strict context of this particular issue, I was on the side of the french.
So again, thanks for your input, but try and pay closer attention.
Wab
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[I would say that the answer to your question is NO, the french do not charge us to maintain our cemeteraries, or lease the land to us.
Bohdi,
Thanks, thats interesting. So the land the cemetery is remains french property? They allow us to site the monument there free of charge and the US is responsible for maintainence?
Or did we buy the ground?
Thanks,
Wab
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Originally posted by parker00
Not much for sticking up for the French but if it wasn't for them, would we be who we are today. They are the ones who helped us win our independance.
68Parker
INCOMING!!!!!!!!
True, but nevertheless....DUCK. ;)
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You Americans are really turning stones to find a argument to bash a Europe country nowadays aint you?
The hate against Europe seems to have increased after this last election...
Enjoying your Freedom Fries AkWabbi`t? :rolleyes:
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quote:
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Originally posted by parker00
Not much for sticking up for the French but if it wasn't for them, would we be who we are today. They are the ones who helped us win our independance.
68Parker
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I think thats an interesting issue worth discussing, but I think it deserves its own, separate thread.
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Actually I'd prefer not to assume its true. I found the claim incredulous. Not finding any Google reference suggests its not, but before I call BS I'd like to know I'm on solid ground.
I don't like the french, but the one classy thing I thought they did was provide this monument to all the thousands of American boys that died on their beaches trying to liberate their country. While individual people tend to forget the sacrifices others have made for them, institutions tend to have a longer memory. However, if their making a profit off it, it sorta make that argument seem rediculous.
Thanks,
Wab
yeah if it was not for the USA we woulda been speaken German all of us, and USA woulda have to bargin with them after you beat the Japanese (if). There is no way in hell USA coulda stayed out of that war anyway. And it is a pity too see how some is using the fact that thousands of american soldiers died in Europe that way. They was killed because they belived in freedom not for you guys to use it against Europeans 50 years later.
While you liberated the French coast you libereated yourselve also, dont forget that.
What you guys is forgeting is that you did not have much or none civilian losses in that war, what if hitler woulda won the european mainland and England. He woulda been in the position to manufacture nuklear weapons too and that woulda been nasty.
You are slashing the same thing over and over again just to remind us of how much we need you, and yes we need you Americans. But you need us Europeans too, we are the only part of the world that have the same way of life, but some of you guys seems to forget that.
Please could the stupid Euro vs USA soon stop ?
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Originally posted by Maniac
You Americans are really turning stones to find a argument to bash a Europe country nowadays aint you?
The hate against Europe seems to have increased after this last election...
Enjoying your Freedom Fries AkWabbi`t? :rolleyes:
Mainac,
You aren't terribly bright are you? Thanks for your input.
:rolleyes:,
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Bohdi,
Thanks, thats interesting. So the land the cemetery is remains french property? They allow us to site the monument there free of charge and the US is responsible for maintainence?
Or did we buy the ground?
Thanks,
Wab
the ground is considered US soil, and it was given, or I prefer to think paid for... sadly it was with their blood.
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I recently watched a documentery about the french grounds keepers at the US War Cemetary in Normandy.
Regardless of exactly who's tax dollars pay these men, what they do, they do for the US, and out of respect for the young men who gave their lives on French soil.
It really came across that these guys didn't just consider their jobs as 'work', to them it was obviously a great honour to be entrusted with the upkeep of the last resting place of so many American soldiers.
I guess what I am trying to say is that no matter wether it is the French people, or the American people who pay their wages, the men who look after the cemetary do an exceptional job, and they are fully aware, and certainly grateful and respectful of the sacrifices made by those who rest at their feet.
There are several Australian War Cemetaries around the world, (even a couple in France) and every single one of them has it's upkeep payed for by the Australian Govt.....regardless of where they fell, those men were fighting for Australia, just as the men who fell at Normandy, although there to free the French, were fighting for America.
It would be a bit of a disgrace if our governments didn't pay upkeep on the foreign resting places of our fallen I feel, sort of an ultimate betrayal of sorts.
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I would complain IF:
The US Govt didn't pay to upkeep if the French didn't upkeep the site.
Or if the French want to get rid of the memorial.
Theres graves, the American flag, the monument, and upkeep at the site. If it was to be defaced, destroyed, or wanted to be rid of, then I bet there would be a lot of unhappy people.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"I don't like the french, but the one classy thing I thought they did was provide this monument to all the thousands of American boys that died on their beaches trying to liberate their country. While individual people tend to forget the sacrifices others have made for them, institutions tend to have a longer memory."
Ah...good, good...now we're getting to the moral indignation part.
Thanks for hurrying it up for me Wab.
Now get in here, Bodhi, Nubob and Mazz- we have a short week so we need to get this pigpile done by Thursday..
Does this look like French bashing to you, Airhead?
Originally posted by Neubob
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Personally, I don't harbor resentment. I've spent enough time in France(mostly in the south) to know that, like all places, the stereotypes don't hold out for too long. There's good in every group of people, enough of it to warrant a second, third and fourth chance to redeem the mistakes of the past.
This is the way I would want to be treated...
If you need to instigate, at least do it with real bait.
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Originally posted by Airhead
What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if it's true or not- this Thread will deterorate into a French-bashing one within twenty posts.
Hell thats not hard.
all you gotta do is start a thread titled" France" for that to happen
LOL
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Originally posted by Neubob
Does this look like French bashing to you, Airhead?
If you need to instigate, at least do it with real bait.
Nah Neubob, it looks like the villagers dropped their pitchforks and rakes, doused their torches and went home to their hovels. Whatever, nine out of ten threads that start out this way quickly degenerate into a French bashing fest, if this one didn't then that's a good thing and a tribute to Wab for being genuine in his question and not just opening the doors to another one of "those" Threads.
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It's managed by the "American Battle Monument Comission" and owned by the USA.
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Just a tad curious, are there cemeteries in America for the French soldiers and sailors, who died helping to gain independence from Great Britain?
Must be something around Yorktown, no?
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For years I have watch the ceremony's on TV with the American graves in the background. Where are the British and Canadien cemetary's located and do they show the ceremony's with their graves in the background on British and Canadadien TV ?
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check this ET : http://www.normandie44lamemoire.com/cimetieres/lescimetieres.html
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(http://www.dva.gov.au/images/commem/villersb.jpg)
Villers Bretonneux War Cemetery
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission (of which the Office of Australian War Graves is our representitive) duties are to mark and maintain the graves of the members of the forces of the Commonwealth who were killed in the two World Wars.
Tronsky
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Ever been at a european cemetry ?
I (eurotard) at least know how impressing it is.
Akwabbitt u hear what u wanna hear.
probably with a big plate in front of ur head.
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Originally posted by airguard
yeah if it was not for the USA we woulda been speaken German all of us, and USA woulda have to bargin with them after you beat the Japanese (if).
Earth to airguard, we did beat Japan. Not "if", it is "did".
There is no way in hell USA coulda stayed out of that war anyway. And it is a pity too see how some is using the fact that thousands of american soldiers died in Europe that way. They was killed because they belived in freedom not for you guys to use it against Europeans 50 years later.
While you liberated the French coast you libereated yourselve also, dont forget that.
What you guys is forgeting is that you did not have much or none civilian losses in that war, what if hitler woulda won the european mainland and England. He woulda been in the position to manufacture nuklear weapons too and that woulda been nasty.
You are slashing the same thing over and over again just to remind us of how much we need you, and yes we need you Americans. But you need us Europeans too, we are the only part of the world that have the same way of life, but some of you guys seems to forget that.
Please could the stupid Euro vs USA soon stop ?
We could have stayed out of the war dorkwad, but we choose not to. Yes it would have been a risk to let Hitler succeed in taking Europe, but we were well enough seperated by distance to pretty much prevent an invasion of America. Bombers didn't have that kind of range then, and European nations didnt have the aircraft carriers to attack us. Speaking of atomic bombs, we did manage to build a couple ourselves, and by the time Hitler would have had them, we would too. Standoff. Plus, I think your forget the Bear in the equation. Russia was still a powerful force for Hitler to overcome.
At least we werent rollled over like bowling pins as were so many European nations.
dago
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At least we werent rollled over like bowling pins as were so many European nations.
The only thing that saved you was Atlantic Ocean, nothing more.
So could you please decide on one of two options:
a) we - USA - joined the war because of our own interests and strategic goals.
b) we - USA - joined the war to liberate france, europe and save people all over the place.
If answer is B, then follow up question: why did it take Pearl Harbour and slaughter of millions for you to start ?
This whole threat is silly.
French should be "greatful" ? And express it by blindly following Bush's will ?
By the same logic Eastern Europe should be so greatful to Uncle Joe Stalin for "liberating" it ( and mind you, lots of Russian Cementaries here ) that it was to for him to force political compliance with his own goals for 50 years, right ? Same logic same effect ?
As someone previously said, they fought for USA, their died for USA. I wouldn't be suprised if they wouldn't appriciate you using their deeds to prop up your political agenda.
France should show respect ? Respect is a funny thing, it works both ways. And by the token of how USA is acting those days, publicly, freedom fries and all, you can hardly expect any respect... as sad as it is.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Ever been at a european cemetry ?
I (eurotard) at least know how impressing it is.
Akwabbitt u hear what u wanna hear.
probably with a big plate in front of ur head.
Bug,
I'm going to assume from your minimal command of the English language that you simply have missed some of the subtlties of this discussion. Don't get you leather panties in a bind.
I was under the mistaken impression that the Normandy Memorial was french goverment run. The idea that they were sending us a bill to do so was annoying and didn't ring true. Bohdi's explaination make much more sense. The only other thing I wondered was if the french leased us the ground. Often rumours like this have some grain of truth. But that as well seems not to be the case. As far as employing locals to mow the grass and such, that doesn't bother me a bit. As long as it wasn't the french goverment itself sending us a bill.
Thanks to those who provided all the useful information. (Finger) to all the Ameristalkers. :)
Wab
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Originally posted by fd ski
The only thing that saved you was Atlantic Ocean, nothing more.
So could you please decide on one of two options:
a) we - USA - joined the war because of our own interests and strategic goals.
b) we - USA - joined the war to liberate france, europe and save people all over the place.
If answer is B, then follow up question: why did it take Pearl Harbour and slaughter of millions for you to start ?
This whole threat is silly.
French should be "greatful" ? And express it by blindly following Bush's will ?
By the same logic Eastern Europe should be so greatful to Uncle Joe Stalin for "liberating" it ( and mind you, lots of Russian Cementaries here ) that it was to for him to force political compliance with his own goals for 50 years, right ? Same logic same effect ?
As someone previously said, they fought for USA, their died for USA. I wouldn't be suprised if they wouldn't appriciate you using their deeds to prop up your political agenda.
France should show respect ? Respect is a funny thing, it works both ways. And by the token of how USA is acting those days, publicly, freedom fries and all, you can hardly expect any respect... as sad as it is.
What is it with Ameristalkers and this automatic assumption
of moral superiority these days. Because you disagree with US
policy does not mean you have all the answers.
One thing you might want to remember is that America had
to project power over the same oceans that apparently "saved"
us from the Axis. Oh yeah, and we fought 2 fronts our entire
war and won.
Respect is indeed a funny thing, and I'm sure it pains you
terribly to admit the US has ever done anything "right".
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Originally posted by Rino
What is it with Ameristalkers and this automatic assumption
of moral superiority these days. Because you disagree with US
policy does not mean you have all the answers.
Respect is indeed a funny thing, and I'm sure it pains you
terribly to admit the US has ever done anything "right".
Its in your mind dude.
This is what YOU want to belive.
Ameristalkers :rolleyes:
Flip the coin.
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I spoke too soon I guess, huh, Neubob? Thing is, there's only one way for a thread like this to go, and that's down. It doesn't matter if Wab has a legitimate question or not either- it still deterorates into a USA- Euro pissing match over a war that not one person here particapated in, nor is even old enough to remember.
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Personally I think the french government would have paid for this over the past few decades, but as that generation passes on, I wouldnt expect them to keep it up to infinity.
If that were the case, we'd still be holding french appreciation days for the help Lafeyette gave us in the American Revolution. The French have our grandfathers to thank, not us younger guys and gals.
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Everything you need to know http://www.abmc.gov/
They do a good job too.
oops sorry - been posted.
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Sraffo, thank you. It was interesting seeing all those different
cemetary's. It's easy to overlook the others who died there when you usually see only the largest one in the pictures.
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Sorry , double post
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
I don't like the french, but the one classy thing I thought they did was provide this monument to all the thousands of American boys that died on their beaches trying to liberate their country.
Not that it seems like any american gives a damn about the other nationalities that lost servicemen trying to liberate europe, check out this website for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
http://www.cwgc.org Its a sobering experience searching for your surname and seeing page after page listed, especially since i have a rare surname.
The "Debt of Honour Register" is the Commission's database listing the 1.7 million men and women of the Commonwealth forces who died during the two world wars and the 23,000 cemeteries, memorials and other locations world-wide where they are commemorated. The register can also be searched for details of the 67,000 Commonwealth civilians who died as a result of enemy action in the Second World War.
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Originally posted by Airhead
I spoke too soon I guess, huh, Neubob? Thing is, there's only one way for a thread like this to go, and that's down. It doesn't matter if Wab has a legitimate question or not either- it still deterorates into a USA- Euro pissing match over a war that not one person here particapated in, nor is even old enough to remember.
I'm not gonna argue with you. Any thread containing the words 'French', 'France', or even 'Euro' is inevitably going to end up in a bunch of mud slinging.
I just wanted you to understand that I'm not somebody whose name should immediately pop into mind as soon as you see a thread going that route.
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Originally posted by airguard
yeah if it was not for the USA we woulda been speaken German all of us,
Wrong. If not for the Russians...
Please could the stupid Euro vs USA soon stop ? [/B]
Why shouldn't we bash? Why when the kaiser invaded France and Belgium bayoneting nuns, nurses, and babies, back in 1914, why the USA was right there to help out our French friends...in 1917.
And when the Nazis overan France and the Low Countries, in 1940, why we couldn't get there fast enough...as soon as Germany declared war on us in 1941.
Hey, our president has gone to Germany to decorate SS graves. What more do you want?
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Originally posted by Furball
http://www.cwgc.org Its a sobering experience searching for your surname and seeing page after page listed, especially since i have a rare surname.
Thanks for the link. I found my great-grandfather's brother.
http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=585742
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Just kidding.
Actually, I am never one to miss a chance to slam the French, since I find them reprehensible. (How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? No one knows, it's never been tried).
In this case, I hope WE PAY for the care of the cemetaries. They have no regard for the Americans who died freeing their country - screw having them maintain the graves.
(For sale, French surplus army weapons - Never fired, dropped once).
Have a nice day!
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Originally posted by TalonX
Just kidding.
Actually, I am never one to miss a chance to slam the French, since I find them reprehensible. (How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? No one knows, it's never been tried).
In this case, I hope WE PAY for the care of the cemetaries. They have no regard for the Americans who died freeing their country - screw having them maintain the graves.
(For sale, French surplus army weapons - Never fired, dropped once).
Have a nice day!
Why dont you bring your dead home?
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Originally posted by Maniac
Why dont you bring your dead home?
See what I mean?
Drinking beer behind the shoeracks again.
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Originally posted by Neubob
See what I mean?
Drinking beer behind the shoeracks again.
You see what you want to see, read the post by TalonX that i quoted.
You recive what you give...
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Originally posted by Maniac
Why dont you bring your dead home?
Don't you think it would be a shame for them to be in the same country as TalonX ?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Thanks for the link. I found my great-grandfather's brother.
http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=585742
Np, that database is a brilliant service. Really does prove that they will not be forgotten. Well, not by us anyway. our allies maybe.
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Originally posted by straffo
Don't you think it would be a shame for them to be in the same country as TalonX ?
No need to go that far, but im sure the war heroes would twitch and roll in their graves if they heard the oppinions of TalonX and his friends.
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To quote page 30 of the ABMC annual report. ' Cemetary land is owned by the foreign countries in which cemetaries are located, and is provided to the United States in perpetuity.'
Is that clear enough for you? Really I find this whole thread disrespectful to the dead in those cemetaries and to those French and others who quite properly respect and revere those men who died to liberate them. What has got into some of you?