Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Simaril on November 24, 2004, 06:34:45 AM
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Why do most players ignore the strat part of the game? At the most basic level, because their gameplay impact is too indirect. If your goal is to keep troops down, it's more effective, safer, and faster to send a solo 110 across the entire front NOE than it is to send buffs on deep penetration at altitude. Those bomber missions are long and often thankless -- and in AH, boring is gameplay death. Hitting strats CAN impact play, but in the flow of the MA it jst isnt worth it.
And any small effect on gameplay will be DEFENSIVE in nature, adding to the stalemate. Troops: stop the enemy from attacking you. Ordinance: stop the enemy from attacking you. Ack: ridiculously easier to take out the guns, so who cares about the strat. Refinery: useless with 75% basement for base fuel supplies.
Which is why a map can have disconnected strats that nobody notices. They just dont care, because it doesnt impact gameplay.
So here's a thought.
One: Since base fuel cant go lower than 75%, the fuel strats are especially meaningless.
Two: The major impediment to effective base capture with non-horde numbers is difficulty getting and keeping the base safe for M3/goon.
Three: FH and VH down times are just a bit short to allow attackers to clear the defenders adn bring in the goon. This cycle is where most stalemated attacks stall.
Suggestion: Why not convert the currently useless Refinery strats to Manufacturing strats, that affect the hangars' down times? Terminal damage to the strats could cause hangars' down time to extend from current roughly 15 mintes to maybe 30 of 40 minutes, with incremental effects for partial damage.
This change alone would radically change the way that the capture crew approached a base. I suspect we'd see less of the horde, actual concerted defense of a strat target, and a breakdown of the stalemate seen in so many maps.
Simaril
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Works for me!
Well thought out post sir.
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I like that Idea.
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Yes, good idea...how easy would it be to implement? I am a computer moron, and therefore have no clue.
MRPLUTO
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As I've thought about it more, and reread Citalbria's plea for more strat play depth, I'm even more convinced that the need for hordes and porkers comes directly from the DEFENSIVE nature of the current strat system.
Adding the manufacturing strat would allow strats to be part of base capture in a way that simply doesnt happen in the MA now. I don't believe the current situation comes from lack of understanding alone; the defensve nature of strat game keeps it from having offensive meaning.
Unlike what I've read of prior efforts at "factories", these would not be tied to specific planes or types. Like other strats, these facotires would affect the time it takes to restore base functions. In this case, it'd be the VH, BH, and FH.
IOur current strat game is like WW1 in the trenches -- we have better ways of stopping the other guy, than we have of getting our attacks going.
And this idea would fix it.
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Great ideas, but what are the chances of this being implemented?
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Air Warrior had something like this, and it added some really fun possibilities for making your enema miserable (which we all know is really F_U_N :))
Another feature was that resupply depended on AI drone gooneys successfully completing resupply runs for regeneration to happen. This meant gooney hunting was another great way to spread The Hate.
Mage put up a little 'splanation that I liked so much I saved it H_E_R_E. (http://home.rgv.rr.com/casamyers/AWStrat/AWstrat.html)
Lots of good gameplay resulted, I enthusiastically endorse this idea being considered for the MA.
culero
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WB's strat hooked into this at one time long ago if memory serves..
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Well, hell, was just reading the other thread. It seems a lot of what I was talking about is already in there (trains etc instead of goons, but there). Never mind :)
dweebalero
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I like the idea, but many of the current maps make this a bad idea.
On maps where the factories are close to the initial front lines, many time, the factories end up behind enemy lines. If there was a factory that could effect hanger regeneration times, it would be constantly under attack and very difficult for the owning country to defend it.
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I thought the City already effected Hangar rebuild times......is this not the case?
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in order to encourage player to bomb strat targets, there's a need for detailed statistics of the effects. example:
a sheet that describes the down times for various objects - when a bomber mission wrecks the factories they can SEE the effect immediatly. This also gives the bomber pilots something to gloat about, like announcing to the countrymates: "bish hangars downtime now 30min, with the blessing of XXX squad"
This increases the "achivement" feeling.
Bozon
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Originally posted by AcId
I thought the City already effected Hangar rebuild times......is this not the case?
Unfortunately, no. According to the Strategic Targets portion of the help, Fighter, Bomber, Vehicle Hangers, and shore batteries are simply down for 15 minutes. If I'm reading it correctly, no resupply will bring them up faster and no strat target will keep them down longer.
Town buildings are the same except their downtime is 45 minutes.
City buildings only resupply HQ and/or the factories in the zone.
So from the looks of things, the only thing you can really have an effect on with strat strikes are the ack, radar, fuel, troops and ord loadout. All of which can also be resupplied by diligent goon drivers.
... and YES, I would love for strat to mean a little more than "points"
:aok
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hey anthing that makes it so that when you log on you have no one to fight has to be a good thing eh?
lazs
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One answer [SIZE=10]TOD[/SIZE]
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Originally posted by mars01
One answer [SIZE=10]TOD[/SIZE]
yeah... and until then, its SOSDD. Basically, the stuff that buffs should be hitting will be bypassed due to its lack of impact.
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There are plenty buffs flying in this game they are hitting fields etc.
I would rather see HTC spend their time getting TOD done rather than waste time making MA strat model work.
As for SOSDD, so if the Buffs had other strat targets than the fields, it would still be SOSDD.
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Originally posted by bozon
in order to encourage player to bomb strat targets, there's a need for detailed statistics of the effects. ....Bozon
Feedback is important for that sense of success -- and lets face it, as guys we generally act like instructions are for emergencies only. ;)
What if the base info window was modified slightly, so underneath the "training 80%" or whatever, it also said "troops re-up in 15 minutes"?
That way players could see the impact of strat play and resupply right off.
Simaril
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Originally posted by mars01
I would rather see HTC spend their time getting TOD done rather than waste time making MA strat model work.
I have a strong feeling that while the bored vets and the realistic immersion crowd will throng to TOD, AH2's bread and butter will remain the MA. Getting that area right, with multiple layers of play challenges and complexities for everybody, will bankroll the rest of HTC's efforts that much more.
Simaril
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If there is a factory that can be bombed to make hangers stay down longer it will kill the game for alot of folks. Lots of folks have no interest in the *war* and are here mainly for the fights. Those folks will end up leaving and playing other games.
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Originally posted by Elfie
If there is a factory that can be bombed to make hangers stay down longer it will kill the game for alot of folks. Lots of folks have no interest in the *war* and are here mainly for the fights. Those folks will end up leaving and playing other games.
This idea wouldnt prevent upping, players could still fly in from next base. And, the same dynamic applies to the bases THEY are trying to capture -- if they plan ahead and take out OUR factories, then our zone gets harder to defend. If we see cons going after the factory strat, there'd be a major incentive to break out and go after the buffs.
The idea wouldn't make it harder to fly, but it would make the fronts more fluid. Right now it seems the only ways to capture are to sneak, or to horde. There is very little in between, and it can stagnate game play.
Getting the vh/fhs down and keeping them down is hard enough, and truth is they tend to pop up jsut as the last batch of defenders is cleared. Getting them to stay down by hitting a strat will help the strat players have something meaningful to do, it will let the landgrabbers have stuff to play with, it'll make defenders work a little harder. I think it'd make the game more, not less fun and interesting.
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Originally posted by Elfie
If there is a factory that can be bombed to make hangers stay down longer it will kill the game for alot of folks. Lots of folks have no interest in the *war* and are here mainly for the fights. Those folks will end up leaving and playing other games.
Personally, I have very little interest in the "war". If I up a jabo, it's because I want a jabo mission, not to win the war.
Having hangars stay down longer, does not change anything from the furballers point of view - unless upping from vulched fields is your cup of tea that is. Once fighters are disabled, you will roll from the next field anyway. So you'll have to do it for 15min longer which is about 1 sortie time.
The reward for the furballers is the option of hunting the bombers otw to the factories.
Bozon
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simiril... if you want "multiple layers of gameplay" and to "get the arena right" then you would no doubt agree that a furball island type of gameplay such as the carrier idea I suggested in another thread is essential for the furballers to enjoy the arena also?
lazs
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Originally posted by Simaril
I have a strong feeling that while the bored vets and the realistic immersion crowd will throng to TOD, AH2's bread and butter will remain the MA. Getting that area right, with multiple layers of play challenges and complexities for everybody, will bankroll the rest of HTC's efforts that much more.
Simaril
Well said indeed Simaril!
Lots of us look foward to TOD. But the reality is this is where we are, this is what we have, and we'd like to see a few changes. Tod or NO tod. The MA could use a few upgrades.
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Throw in several manned acks at the strat targets.
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I have a strong feeling that while the bored vets and the realistic immersion crowd will throng to TOD, AH2's bread and butter will remain the MA. Getting that area right, with multiple layers of play challenges and complexities for everybody, will bankroll the rest of HTC's efforts that much more.
I'm not sure about that. If they do TOD right then it should be all that the strat guys want. Hitting targets, flying escorts, taking fields and using some sort of strategy. Why would straters fly in the MA?
TOD will never apease the people who just want to up and fight, nor should it.
The problem with the MA apeasing everyone and getting it right, is that there is a conflict of interests between those that want to strategery and those that just want to fight.
The strat guys are about stopping the fights so that a field can be taken, thus supressing opposition ending the fighting.
The fight guys just want to fight. I think lazs is on to something, by allowing a place on each map where you can just fight. Then you could have a more restrictive strat and not piss off the guys taht want to fight. But then what happens when more people are just fighting rather then participating in the strat game?
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I believe that is the real fear.... the fear that if the desighners don't force us to play strat we will just be irresponsible and have..... fun.... and you know what your mom says about that sort of thing!
lazs
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This proposed change will just further (and incredably harshly)punish the side with lower numbers. I mean really who will be in a postion to take advantage of the change. The same side that now can spawn a dozen extra guys in bombers to take down the HQ.
The side with bigger numbers allready has a huge huge advantage. Why make it more severe?
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Originally posted by Pongo
This proposed change will just further (and incredably harshly)punish the side with lower numbers. I mean really who will be in a postion to take advantage of the change. The same side that now can spawn a dozen extra guys in bombers to take down the HQ.
The side with bigger numbers allready has a huge huge advantage. Why make it more severe?
I have to disagree, pongo. The reason large numbers are so powerful is the huge impact we see from the horde. You cant defend against the horde anyway, so we now see the low side resorting to porkage to slow the attacking down. It works, and we often see near stagnation.
By making it possible to take bases with smaller numbers, the less populated side becomes ABLE to counterattack when the swarm strikes. By hitting the other side of the map, the horde would be drawn down in defense -- all the while, giving the outnumbered side something to do (other than helplessly watch the horde hammer bases down).
The ONLY time this idea would take effect is when the FH's are hit. Otherwise, its situation normal.
Remeber, this idea ONLY takes effect when FHs go down. Because all FHs rarely go down at the same time, right now we'll often see 5 minutes of effect from FH hits. When the first killed FH pops up, the attacking team relies on vulching to keep the base suppressed. I'd argue that's no different from keeping the hangars down longer.
Again , the real benefit somes when numbers are lower. Provided the mission thinks ahead, smaller groups can take bases with this idea. That helps the early morning (EST) crew, it helps the outnumbered side when the killer bees swarm.
And we can alwys still pork.
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Originally posted by lazs2
simiril... if you want "multiple layers of gameplay" and to "get the arena right" then you would no doubt agree that a furball island type of gameplay such as the carrier idea I suggested in another thread is essential for the furballers to enjoy the arena also?
lazs
I have no problem with that idea at all.
My whole point is that the stratters -- guys who like to plan, and play the "Chess" aspects of the game -- simply have NOTHING to do right now. Its all furball, landgrab, or GV work.
"Strat" work DOESNT mean "grab a bomber and do a milk run." Thats score wh*ring. Strategy implies planning ahead, and altering conditions that have indirect effect on the "war". You never capture anything just by hitting troops or ack. The idea is to reduce enemy capabilities so that captures -- the basis for AH's military economy -- become more possible.
Hitting airbase towns, FHs and so forth is TACTICAL, which is why jabos can do it too. STRATEGIC action is differrent, and there is simply no strategic target left in AH2. None of the so called strat targets have a meaningful impact on offensive action, as I described at the beginning.
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Originally posted by mars01
I'm not sure about that. If they do TOD right then it should be all that the strat guys want. Hitting targets, flying escorts, taking fields and using some sort of strategy. Why would straters fly in the MA?
Why shouldnt they? Why shouldnt the game offer even a simple strategic level of play? Why should players with that interest be forced to go to another arena to get it?
The problem with the MA apeasing everyone and getting it right, is that there is a conflict of interests between those that want to strategery and those that just want to fight.
Its not really appeasement, its finding a balance that works for everybody. If the game were primarily chess-like strategy, to be honest it would be a loser. What I'm suggesting is a mildly increased strategic flavoring -- which I think would actually improve the fight balance by spreading out the horde, as described above.
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Originally posted by Sabre1
Throw in several manned acks at the strat targets.
Interesting, but i suspect most strat flyers come in above 7k AGL. Manned acks dont do much there.
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Originally posted by bozon
Having hangars stay down longer, does not change anything from the furballers point of view - unless upping from vulched fields is your cup of tea that is. Once fighters are disabled, you will roll from the next field anyway. So you'll have to do it for 15min longer which is about 1 sortie time.
The reward for the furballers is the option of hunting the bombers otw to the factories.
Bozon
My thoughts exactly, Bozon.
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well... simaril... if you think that the game is all furball and gv and landgrab and the furball guys think it is all strat game and gv's and landgrab (which we think of as the "strat" of the game)....
then something is really wrong. no one is happy except the landgrabbing gv guys.
Furball guys don't care about landgrabbing or gv's and now yu tell me that the strat guys don't either..
perhaps we have common ground. I have no problem with any strat that doesn't make the game a 10 hours on or nothing kind of situation so long as there is allways something for a furballer to do. We have short attention spans so... when we only have an hour or two to play we don't care who is winning the war or whatever... we don't want to fly around doing nothing for those precious hours....
might as well fix the dishwasher.
oh... and "hunting bombers" or even having bombers in the game is no reward for furballers... we have no use for bombers or fighting them... they are a non element as far as furballers are concerned... you only shoot at bombers when you are bored witless... a condition that your ideas seem to highten.
lazs
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Why shouldnt they? Why shouldnt the game offer even a simple strategic level of play? Why should players with that interest be forced to go to another arena to get it?
Right now is a very simple strategic level of play and it is not enough. I have no problem with the strat game playing in the same arena as the rest, but there has to be a safe haven for people who could care less about land grab or strat.
Land grab and strat has one main goal lessen or stop your opponents from being able to fight. For people that just want to fight this is a problem.
Thus Lazs idea, which should be simple enough to implement. All you need are three bases or three carriers off in the corner of the map.
I agree breaking things up into seperate arenas stops people from shifting gears quickly and is the main reason why seperate arenas are a bad idea. Unfortunately it's not our choice.
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We’ve had this discussion innumerable times in the past. The current strat situation is a direct result of HTC listening to the players and trying to find a solution that would satisfy both the bomber cult (to steal a phrase from history) and the fighter cult. Unfortunately, it proved inadequate to the former, and irritating to the latter. TOD is supposed to be HTC’s next attempt at providing something for the immersion crowd; i.e. those who like to fly in a more historical context, whether in fighters or bombers. I look forward to TOD, but also wish the MA had a slightly more historical feel as well.
However, in the mean time I will wax philosophic on how I’d change the MA in the absence of TOD. First, in addition to being able to pork the supplies at a field/base by direct attack, I’d also make it possible reduce them over time with attacks against the strategic source of that supply (factories/facilities). It’s a question of cause and effect. Attack the source, and you create a temporary shortage of that supply for all fields in that zone. Damage or destroy the fuel depot for instance, and in a short period of time all bases in that zone would have reduced fuel, just as if someone bombed it. Say, 25% damage to the fuel depot would reduce fuel at bases in that zone by 25% after 10 minutes. Damage the depot 50%, and fuel would drop to 50% at bases. Say you were only concerned about one base? Hitting a base’ supply convoy would have a similar effect, but only at that base. A minimum of fuel and gun ammo would still always be available (as it is now).
I would also tie rebuild times at base towns (which control whether a base is “capture-able”) to safe arrival of trains. Each base town would have a train track leading to it. Kill the train, and it slows the town’s rebuild. You might also tie the number of troops necessary to capture the maproom in the town to safe and timely train arrivals, making it easier to capture a base if you cut its supply line. Any bridge used by a train or truck convoy would be destroyable, though it would require several thousand pounds of bomb damage to do so. Cutting the supply route in this way would stop the train or truck convoy from continuing.
The remainder of the strat system would remain in place, i.e. the capital city of a zone would still control rebuild time of factories and such; however, it would also control rebuild time of bridges.
This would not change the situation for furballers, but would give strat-guys the means to affect the war in a unique and (perhaps slightly) more realistic way.
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Like I said... noting much wrong with any of you guys strat ideas so long as the players who like to furball or even have a lot of action have someplace to go...
The problem is that if you don't throw us that bone then your "stat" ideas simply make things even worse for us. We don't stay on line for 10 hours at a time and are not in the least concerned with some huge team effort to win the enormously rewarding...... reset.
throw us a bone first and then you can decide amoung yourselves what you want for strat... If we have no place to go tho we will fight every effort you instigate to make the game even less fun for us.
point is... to be blunt... all your ideas offer nothing for us and in most cases just make things worse for us.
lazs
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Exactly Lazs.
This would not change the situation for furballers, but would give strat-guys the means to affect the war in a unique and (perhaps slightly) more realistic way.
Yes it would and we would be back to the same place when fuel was an issue.
When fuel was porkable to 25%, I could log on and not find a fight within two sectors of the front line. At the height of the fuel porking problem that is all Strat guys would do. This would then allow them to attack a base almost virtually undefended.
Like Laz points out...
If the strat game is going to limit the ability to up and fight at any given time, then it will not work for a sizeable group of people that play this game. If on the other hand, you strat guys break the back of one country, but we can still go to a corner of the map and fight like crazy, then you could pretty much implement anything you want.
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Mars, your concern is a valid one. However, I'd suggest that porking the fuel depot (as an example) would require more than it does now, in terms of effort. With greater reward must come greater effort. So, one guy in a bomber could not reduce the fuel depot to 25%; more like a half dozen. As it is now, base resupply by goon/m3 ought to have the effect of rebuilding the fuel supply (for example), but on a temporary basis in the case of fuel porked via strat bombing. Indeed, it might be desirable to have more load-out options for C-47's, breaking it down into type of field supply to deliver. You could further add the option of C-47 formations, to carry more supplies. And again, you would still be unable to reduce fuel to below 25% at a base, or deny gun ammo.
Lasz, I don't have a problem with having a section of the map, somewhat isolated, that would have a handful of un-porkable fields within a short distance of one another. I'm not sure how used this area would be, as the fights seem to alway evolve out of a base-capture attempt in the MA. However, I don't see that it would cause any problems. Some players seem to get bored with upping time and again with no objective other than to shoot down another player.
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So let me get this straight.
Strat guys want to efect the corse of the battles, speed of the landgrab, ect. They want their bombing to afect something.
Furballers want to fight, twisty turny one on one, goggles and silk scarves, fights. Bombers don't turn or twist so there no fun to shoot down.
Have I got it so far?
Strat guys are unhappy that they have no efect on anything. they can't stop the horde, bombing strat targets doesn't do anything worthwile.
Furballers don't want to strenthen the strat system, cause that means they will have to go hunt the boring bombers.
It sounds to me that the only people that are happy are the furballers. Hitech must balance this out so that nobody is happy ;)
No really I do think that the original strat system worked one factory refiinery ect.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I have to disagree, pongo. The reason large numbers are so powerful is the huge impact we see from the horde. You cant defend against the horde anyway, so we now see the low side resorting to porkage to slow the attacking down. It works, and we often see near stagnation.
By making it possible to take bases with smaller numbers, the less populated side becomes ABLE to counterattack when the swarm strikes. By hitting the other side of the map, the horde would be drawn down in defense -- all the while, giving the outnumbered side something to do (other than helplessly watch the horde hammer bases down).
The ONLY time this idea would take effect is when the FH's are hit. Otherwise, its situation normal.
Remeber, this idea ONLY takes effect when FHs go down. Because all FHs rarely go down at the same time, right now we'll often see 5 minutes of effect from FH hits. When the first killed FH pops up, the attacking team relies on vulching to keep the base suppressed. I'd argue that's no different from keeping the hangars down longer.
Again , the real benefit somes when numbers are lower. Provided the mission thinks ahead, smaller groups can take bases with this idea. That helps the early morning (EST) crew, it helps the outnumbered side when the killer bees swarm.
And we can alwys still pork.
I believe you are totaly mistaken. Any advantage that the few smaller side guys might gain if they could disengage long enought to fly to the enemy strat would be totally eradicated at will by the larger side.
Cant believe you dont see this.
This change would totaly favour the larger side. Giving them an even more powerful way to stick it to the smaller side. A way that would not likley be answerable.
Its self evident. This is a strat change that would moslty only be excersised by the side with a numerical advantage.
Why add some other target to the game that can just be NOE suicide bombed by dweebs who want to ruin the game..why arm them to do so?
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Originally posted by Pongo
I believe you are totaly mistaken. Any advantage that the few smaller side guys might gain if they could disengage long enought to fly to the enemy strat would be totally eradicated at will by the larger side.
Cant believe you dont see this.
I admit i'm missing something here pongo -- how exactly is getting vulched at a heavily outnumbered, capped field different from not being able to take off for an extra 10 minutes?
I guess I'm thinking that the best defense can be to attack elsewhere and deprive the swarm of the advantage of initiative. Responding to my attack lightens the numbers at their horded point, and makes it possible for my teammates to come in from the next base, and maybe break cap?
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blackcross you were getting it right up until the end where you said the only people happy in AH are the furballers....
You must not read the board much or play AH looking for good furballs. The game is set up so that no one has fun as much as they like. That includes furballers.
It is also a zero sum game. every time you make things better for one group you make it worse for another. Seems that the only solution is a group of carriers off to the side in the maps where furballs can happen. with that out of the way..... the strat guys can get as maceavellian and punative as they want... It can be as compex and boreing as a chinesse puzzle for all I care.
saber.... you are correct... and endless furball at on spot would get boring 100% of the time but... It would be a blast for most of the time... it would be a relief when the strat people had shut down the map so that it was useless for our type of gameplay..
furballers would still play in other spots when there was something worthwile going on... problem is... there is seldom a long enough or good enough fite on the maps we have now.
lazs
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Originally posted by Simaril
I admit i'm missing something here pongo -- how exactly is getting vulched at a heavily outnumbered, capped field different from not being able to take off for an extra 10 minutes?
I guess I'm thinking that the best defense can be to attack elsewhere and deprive the swarm of the advantage of initiative. Responding to my attack lightens the numbers at their horded point, and makes it possible for my teammates to come in from the next base, and maybe break cap?
Your picking one small potential side effect of your proposed change(less vulching) attributing it to your change(without any support) and ignoring the fundimental truth of your proposed change.
Deep penetration strat raids are almost the exclusive capablility of the side with superior numbers.
When there is parity, sure why not give the more orginised side a target to hit that might impact the deadlock. I aggree its not a bad idea in that sense. But in implementation, it would only be done to countries that were allready in the bucket. We are talking about the MA here.
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Gosh, Lazs, it almost sounds like we agree on something:eek: . Anyway, I look forward to TOD as an outlet for my immersion fetish. It would be great to hear some more detail from HTC on where that's going. The role-playing aspect is something I miss from my boxed-sim days (Aces over the Pacific, Falcon 3.0, Midway).
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That;'s a good idea..It'll never happen.
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sabre... I have never tried to restrict the way others play so lonjg as it doesn't restrict how I want to play.... I am not asking everyone to have nothing to do but furball... in fact, all I want is one little area.... say 3 carriers out of a couple hundred on each map where furballers could go and fight our kind of fight without it being shut down by those who shut stuff down simply to get attention.
The rest of the map you guys can make as anal and boring as you can stand. If a fight accidentaly breaks out in your part of the map..... I'll be there with a lampshade on my head.. So long as I dont have to talk military.
lazs
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I'm sorry, Lazs, but only military talkers will be allowed on the rest of the map:D .
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I was afraid of something like that..
lazs