Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RedDg on November 25, 2004, 09:14:13 AM
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Title says it all.
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Build some speed, in a dive, or just flat lvl running. Pull up, and as you reach the top of the loop, roll aircraft 180 degrees....so your lvl again, and repeat.
Some aircraft will be very hard pressed to do a "double", where others can make a triple. It depends on how well the plane climbs, and maintains "E"
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Same way you gt to carnagie hall. Practice practice practice. LOL
E
E is the key
And perhaps a notch or two of flaps on the second one depending on plane
Also dont pull on the stick too hard
You want to pull hard enough to do that manuver but not so hard you blow all your E
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Whipped this up, hope it helps RedDog.
(http://members.cox.net/dipstick/doubimmel.gif)
PS... Glad to cya back bud. :)
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beyond being more evasive wouldn't it burn much more e than a smooth zoom climb?
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
beyond being more evasive wouldn't it burn much more e than a smooth zoom climb?
True but often you can get the persueing AC to bleed off more E trying to get a lead on ya by making him pull harder on the stick.
It also puts you in a very good position to come back down on your prey. Often just as he is finishing his first immelman.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
beyond being more evasive wouldn't it burn much more e than a smooth zoom climb?
The main point of a double Immelman (IMO, this is the way I always taught it) is surprise. Of course it bleeds more E than a simple, smooth zoom climb. But when you see your opponent climbing up and rolling level at the top of an immelman, most people will expect him to use his alt to make an attack without the higher speed of a BnZ. Meaning, they expect him to engage, and will be trying to bring their nose (and guns) around to bear, or at least deny him an easy chance at locking onto your tail and not letting go. Then he does something unexpected and begins climbing into another Immelman, and the other plane is left wallowing and has to dive away. The higher plane can then roll out and make a diving pass, and if the situation is advantageous chop the throttle and saddle up on his 6. Both planes are going to be at a fairly low E state. The double Immel is mostly a delaying tactic to throw the other guy off his game and give you a chance for a 6 shot instead of having him facing you and ready for you.
You have to judge your E state relative to your opponent's, your plane vs his, your skill vs his, and decide if a double Immel is worthwhile, just like any other move. It's definitely worthwhile to have in your book of tricks for the right moment.
Its also useful as a reverse of the split-s maneuver, although you wont see many people use it that way. Except that instead of losing alt and keeping your speed, you lose speed and gain alt, without changing direction. I do it sometimes to climb up to a bomber formation, as it slows me down enough that I have time to get back up to level speed before engaging, instead of climbing the entire time and coming into firing range with no speed to maneuver.
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i use the double immelman alot in merges.. it usually ends up in me hanging the con below me...and thus ending the fight or giving me a major advantage
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How do you perform a double immelman?
Do a single immelman twice.
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Avoid 'gimmicks'...
Something like a 'double immelman' can be countered easy enough. The reason things like this work in AH is because the relative skill level in AH is extremely low.
Squad guys used to ask about 'scissors, ropes etc...'
For the most part these are just gimmicks used to exploit the ignorant.
A safer more efficient manuver is a spiral climb. Just tighten the sprial as you go, this will force the pursuer to pull more lead as he tries for a shot. Depending on the plane match up he will bleed more e and be left hanging.
In a spiral you can better manage your own energy state by either loosening the turn or decreasing your climb angle.
You also can maintain better SA just in case another bad guy joins the attack.
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Basic ACM's 1 The Immelman
The Immelman, or Immel is the most effective, and energy effecient way
to change your direction 180 degrees.
The Immel is simply a half loop up, commonly ending with a roll to
un-invert your plane at the top.
There are some exceptions depending o_n the plane type,but think of
turning your plane as you would a car. The slower you go
the tighter you can turn. This is why the immel is so effective, when
you turn your plane up, you have both the drag of your turn slowing you
and gravity. Its effecientcy comes from the fact that you are now
higher than when you started your turn. You have just converted speed
into altitude. You now have the option of trading that altitude
for speed if it is needed.
Flyboy nailed it. The main point is for turning 180 after a merge. If both planes turn 180 up, thats a 2nd merge. New merge, same questions. Are you going to turn 180? What is the best turn to perform aginst what the other guy is doing? Often it leads to another immelman.
Other uses being mentioned here are just secondary tactics.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Avoid 'gimmicks'...
Shhh Wotan! The newbies don't need to know this, it might make them harder to kill! Even worse, they might start learning how to have a good fight!
:D
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Can I throw this question in? Ok you are merging so both have noses down to try and get below each other as they cross.
Doing so they both pull up to immel back. Do you
a) pull tightly to try and get a snap shot at him before he does to you?
or
b) dont pull so tight, accept that he may get a snap shot in, then continue to double the immel to get above him and hold the advantage.
(G'day Blue, long time)
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Originally posted by FTJR
Can I throw this question in? Ok you are merging so both have noses down to try and get below each other as they cross.
Doing so they both pull up to immel back. Do you
a) pull tightly to try and get a snap shot at him before he does to you?
or
b) dont pull so tight, accept that he may get a snap shot in, then continue to double the immel to get above him and hold the advantage.
(G'day Blue, long time)
Hiya FTJR - also long time
(c) Pull tight , let him take the shot on the first immelman (even if you can take the shot), while he's taking shot , immel again , you will have position.
Taking a shot on the first immel , is effectively the same as taking a HO shot on merge, if you miss you will have lost position usually.
this is assuming same or similar planes and E ( duelling type conditions)
Usually you can sum up pretty quickly after the first , and you can see what he's doing , to respond accordingly.
A series of immelmans like that is just basically using a number of vertical lead turns to get an advantage.
Never shoot when nose to nose , always lead turn - well pretty much always ;)
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Originally posted by Wotan
Avoid 'gimmicks'...
Something like a 'double immelman' can be countered easy enough. The reason things like this work in AH is because the relative skill level in AH is extremely low.
Ahh but sometimes even the grisled veterans can get caught by a gimmick.
Got one just last night using the double. My A8 against his La7.
No need to embarrass him farther by saying who he was here.
He knows I got him and how, As do I.
and thats good enough for me.
Thing is when you do sucker someone like that there is that moment when you KNOW he's all yours. And you know he must know it too.
You can almost sence the profanities of the guy cussing himself out for being so stupid or the resolution of the person saying to themselves "Im dead"
Funny thing is its a move I havent done in a really long time. And didnt really even plan on doing it untill I did it Just seemed like the thing ta do
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ahh but sometimes even the grisled veterans can get caught by a gimmick.
Got one just last night using the double. My A8 against his La7.
No need to embarrass him farther by saying who he was here.
He knows I got him and how, As do I.
and thats good enough for me.
So this La7, did he climb with you in the double immel? A "real vet" would know when to climb and when not to, depending on his E state, cause im pretty damn sure if you guys were in the same Energy state upon the merge he would have outclimbed you, double immel or no.
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Bat is right in alot in sense...
mix spiral with double immel...use aircraft ability to tail move(109 is good at that)...try different combo's will only make you better.
Oh and and if you are doing vertical moves learn to out stall your enme...
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Ive found in flight sims the worst thing you can do when trying to hang, is mix control inputs at the same time. Adding aileron, while using elevator, seems to eat E really fast. Not sure how realistic this is, or if it matters in here much. Ive flown a certain way so long I dont think of that stuff so much anymore.
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Originally posted by FTJR
Can I throw this question in? Ok you are merging so both have noses down to try and get below each other as they cross.
Doing so they both pull up to immel back. Do you
a) pull tightly to try and get a snap shot at him before he does to you?
or
b) dont pull so tight, accept that he may get a snap shot in, then continue to double the immel to get above him and hold the advantage.
(G'day Blue, long time)
Hiya FTJR! Yup long time. I'm still on break from the game but will return soon after I move house next month...
In any situation where you're on a nose to nose merge I always recommend not to take the shot. Use the time he's lining you up to gain angle on him by continuing a lead turn. If you're worried about him taking his shot add some roll to your immel to make it the start of a spiral climb.
The only exception may be if you are at a serious disadvantage/low fuel/damaged etc then you may want to give him a quick squirt then continue on and extend to bug out...
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Hi Redd, yeah long time m8.
Thanks for the info, I have found, (and I haven't been in the MA for 6 months now) that when we are looping, looking over my shoulder I can see whether the guy is out turning me in the vertical, and I find if he is I instinctively push forward on the stick to try and get through his snap opportunity as quick as possible.
Once through that I find that generally I dont have enough E to complete the second immel.
Should I fight the instinct?
From reading the above posts, does everyone accelerate in the level before attempting the 2nd immel. I always thought it was one continuous manouver?
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Whether or not you do the double immelman or the spiral climb depends upon the plane. You dont want to try a spiral climb in a Focke-Wulf or a P38. They are excellent in the vertical, so you stay with the immel or even double immel if you can get it. A P38 that tries the spiral climb is going to be in serious trouble against a 109 or spit for example, but a double immel can drain them of E in the vertical if they pull hard to get up to you after the first immel. It isn't a gimmick at all, and it doesn't depend upon a dweeb being the victim. And it takes more talent to actually pull a double immel off in Aces High than in any other flight sim out there. Those who can do it deserve the kill.
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Originally posted by FTJR
From reading the above posts, does everyone accelerate in the level before attempting the 2nd immel. I always thought it was one continuous manouver?
no. continuous. Only time Ive ever gathered speed was for a fourth immelman, and thats only when the other guy was too.
Oh, that "spiral" 180 is a chandelle.
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4th!!!, I can bearly get through the second. Im obviously suffering from
1: no talent
2: heavy handedness
3: no talent
4: no idea
Ok, please, in words of one syllable or less, how "hard" do you pull.. to the edge of blacking out? Or are you more or less pulling x amount of g 's,
In your particular plane, since those I know posting seem to have just the one ride, be it f6, p38 or p51. Do you aim to merge at a particular speed or is it dependent on your estimation of the enemy's E?
Thanks
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"spiral" 180
A chandelle is a climbing turn
(http://www.ufly.com/lessons/chandelle.gif)
What I mentioned was a 'spiral climb'...
Start with a wide angle and steep climb tightening the circle as you go up adjusting the climb angle to maintain energy. You are not climbing to reverse directions but to bled out the attacker.
You may make 2 or 3 360 rotations before your pursuer bleeds out. This is equally effective against an enemy with much greater energy. The faster he goes the wider his turning circle initially. If he pulls more lead he bleds quicker.
You due the same type of thing in a descending spiral.
You dont want to try a spiral climb in a Focke-Wulf or a P38. They are excellent in the vertical, so you stay with the immel or even double immel if you can get it.
A 190 certainly isn't 'excellent in the verticle' unless you already have an energy advantage, i.e. a zoom climb after a dive. If thats the case a double immelmen is the quickest way to give up that energy advantage.
A double immelmen is a gimmick in that if you fight against any one with sense it is easy to spot and easy to counter. Just like the vaunted 'scissors' or rope a dope. The reason these manuevers work in games and especially in AH is because on average the skill level is low.
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Originally posted by FTJR
4th!!!, I can bearly get through the second. Im obviously suffering from
1: no talent
2: heavy handedness
3: no talent
4: no idea
Ok, please, in words of one syllable or less, how "hard" do you pull.. to the edge of blacking out? Or are you more or less pulling x amount of g 's,
In your particular plane, since those I know posting seem to have just the one ride, be it f6, p38 or p51. Do you aim to merge at a particular speed or is it dependent on your estimation of the enemy's E?
Thanks
if going for maximum turn rate and not caring about E retention - usually keep roughly a 2 -3 inch diameter hole in the middle of the screen
Usually merge with as much speed as is possible in the given situation , fast gives you options that slow doesn't. You can get slower if you need to.
I wouldn't get too hung up on dbl immels's and stuff like that in the MA , its' more a DA type of merge move.
A more typical MA opening if you have the E adv would be say immelman going into a spiral perhaps ( as some have mentioned)
The engagements in the MA are more about using the strengths of your plane and current situation/e-state against the weaknesses of his plane and current situation/e-state.
So merges are more driven by the plane types and their energy states than moves that you might "want" to do.
eg i wouldn't probably ever contemplate a dbl immel against a spit while in F6-f unless I knew I held a significant (and perhaps hidden ) E advantage, to do it co-e would be suicide against a decent spit driver.
How many co-E same or similar plane engagements 1 on 1 do you have in the MA ? pretty rare
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Red Dog....in Ole Airwarrior we called it the "Cuban"...some call it the vertical eight also.
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As a bit of trivia, Max Immelman never actually performed the maneuver named after him but instead used maneuvers similar to Chandelle's with rudder reversals. The Fokker Eindecker (EIII) he few would not pull the G's required for the maneuver and had wing warping controls. Later Fokker models allowed the Immelman.
The Chandelle is a more energy conserving maneuver than the Immelman but not necessarily an easier maneuver for air combat. You must lose sight of your opponent momentarily when performing a Chandelle.
Regards,
Malta
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Great, so far we learned:
1) that if you 'surprize' the other guy with a double imel, his plane will be wably and he wont be able to follow you up.
Why?
2) that a spiral clime will cause the persuer to lose E because he will be 'forced' to pull harder on the stick to get a shot.
How dead are you if he just follows and he is in a better climing plane?
Here is a question, Spit chased by 109g. lets say 109 at 1k or 1.5k behind the spit. Spit starts the spiral clime. What do you think the results are going to be? Try the same with the spit chasing the 109 without any assumptions.
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Originally posted by WldThing
So this La7, did he climb with you in the double immel? A "real vet" would know when to climb and when not to, depending on his E state, cause im pretty damn sure if you guys were in the same Energy state upon the merge he would have outclimbed you, double immel or no.
Actually I came in on him from his 4:00 and slightly higher, He broke hard left at which point I went up originally intending just to loop over onto him and did my first immelman, I saw him starting to climb up to me which had I come down would have put me in an HO situation. LA7 drivers being what they are these days and since I already had 2 kills already I didnt feel like jousting so I went up again and did another giving 2 notches of flaps just as I reached the top.
as I was comming over the top near as I can figure it looked like he was trying to immelman with me and didnt expect me to go for the second one (I was only barely able to pull it off and still maintain control) and didnt quite have the E to pull the second one off before I came down on him.
As I came back at his 6 he wobbled his wings right then left as if not sure which way to try to turn to get out of the way and realising he didnt have the E to do so even if he did know but by then it was too late and the explosion of his plane soon followed.
Near as I can figure while I did have some initial E advantage it wasnt by much. He blew a good chunk of he E on that hard left turn then blew more on the first immelman and probably expected me to zoom away as opposed to going upand over. then he got suckered again when I went over again. probably either didnt figure I had the E for it or expected me to go level and try to fly away as I said I only barely did I managed to come back down on him just as he was starting the second which he couldnt complete when I came back on him he was slow and probably near a stall.
Anyway it was fun. Dont do the move all that much and like I said at the time it seemed like the thing to do.
actually the only other time I remember doing it in AH was as a defencive move (out of desperation) against another La7 that was trying to rope me and went into a high loop and I managed to catch on his way down.
Was a really sweet move and the only time I've ever been accused of "cheating" till he saw his film of it at which point he aggreed.
but it was another one of those things where it seemed to be the thing to do at the time
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Originally posted by dedalos
Great, so far we learned:
1) that if you 'surprize' the other guy with a double imel, his plane will be wably and he wont be able to follow you up.
Why?
If you caught him off guard he blew most of his E on going for the shot after the first Immel
2) that a spiral clime will cause the persuer to lose E because he will be 'forced' to pull harder on the stick to get a shot.
How dead are you if he just follows and he is in a better climing plane?
very dead if he has good gunnery skills and is near equal E state, the E state at the beginning of the spiral climb will be the determining factor
Here is a question, Spit chased by 109g. lets say 109 at 1k or 1.5k behind the spit. Spit starts the spiral clime. What do you think the results are going to be? Try the same with the spit chasing the 109 without any assumptions.
depends on which spit and which 109G model, I would go with the 109 though most likely, unless spit had more E at the start in both instances
another thing to think of is instead of doing a true vertical immel, try pulling the Immel with an angle of around 70 degrees, this sometimes throws ya out of the views of the enemy ( forward up, up, back up, back) and also saves you some E........I am with Wotan on the Spiral Climb issue.....
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
depends on which spit and which 109G model, I would go with the 109 though most likely, unless spit had more E at the start in both instances
another thing to think of is instead of doing a true vertical immel, try pulling the Immel with an angle of around 70 degrees, this sometimes throws ya out of the views of the enemy ( forward up, up, back up, back) and also saves you some E........I am with Wotan on the Spiral Climb issue.....
I think we agree. I am talking about equal states. Only difference the plane and the pilot. The only reason i bring it up is cause I see people all the time trying to do this. Last night I had HURR a NIK try the spiral clime. Well not only I had more e but was in a G10. I think sometimes people read things here and just do them thinking one move beats another?
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Originally posted by FTJR
4th!!!, I can bearly get through the second.
Originally posted by Redd
iI wouldn't get too hung up on dbl immels's and stuff like that in the MA ...
Redds comment is the point I was making in my first post. Each merge is a fresh start. On one hand, it is good to know what a particular series of maneuvers are called (ie double immel) and how to do it fluidly. On the other hand, you only follow all the way through with an ACM series if the other guy stays in position for it. In other words, you dont just do it for the sake of it, at any point your opponent may position themself where you should abandond your ACM seiries in mid stride.
Originally posted by FTJR
Ok, please, in words of one syllable or less, how "hard" do you pull.. to the edge of blacking out? Or are you more or less pulling x amount of g 's,
Here again, (at least for me) it all depends on the opponent. I watch them and only pull hard enough to stay just inside, or in some cases if they are very aggressive, just try to stay out of the way of a snapshot, and build on my growing E advantage.
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Originally posted by Wotan
A chandelle is a climbing turn
(http://www.ufly.com/lessons/chandelle.gif)
What I mentioned was a 'spiral climb'...
Or you could say a series of chandelles growing progressively tighter. But my comment was actually directed not to you, but to the lurker. Two different discussions going here, one in the context of merges, the other effectively on roping. Guess each context is clear now.
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Or you could say a series of chandelles growing progressively tighter.
umm no you couldn't because you aren't doing a series of anything, its one continous manuever.
I am one who brought a 'spiral' and if you classify what I meant incorrectly I will correct it. If the lurker reads 'spiral' in my reply the reads 'spiral 180' in yours it only adds to the confusion thus my clarification...
A chandelle is rather technical in how its performed, a spiral climb is not.
Here is a question, Spit chased by 109g. lets say 109 at 1k or 1.5k behind the spit. Spit starts the spiral clime. What do you think the results are going to be? Try the same with the spit chasing the 109 without any assumptions.
The 109 can make up for its larger turn radious with its higher climb angle. The combination of both will lead the spit to pull more lead at a high angle and lose its energy. What happens here is you trick the spit into thinking he can get a gun solution if he just pulls a little more.
In both AH and FB/AEP flying just the standard G-6 I do this all the time.
Now if the 109 is chasing the spit the spit can turn tighter to begin with so a shallower climb can keep the spits energy up. The 109 has no hope of getting a gun solution. You would just level out extend a bit then go up.
But the variables are endless and there's no 1 set solution for every encounter...
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Originally posted by Wotan
umm no you couldn't because you aren't doing a series of anything, its one continous manuever.
I am one who brought a 'spiral' and if you classify what I meant incorrectly I will correct it. If the lurker reads 'spiral' in my reply the reads 'spiral 180' in yours it only adds to the confusion thus my clarification...
A chandelle is rather technical in how its performed, a spiral climb is not.
I dont see anything technical about it.. You have pulled straight up into vertical, you start to slowly turn, either right or left before you run out of speed, and thus going nose down on the enemy.. Not too hard to pull off, basically a rope with a "cool" name..
As for the spiral climb, which i have used alot more, it can be succesfull once you know your opponent has more E, it will bleed your energy really quick with all the rudder your pushing.. If you have a smart pilot following your spiral he can cut throttle for a few seconds and you can pretty much count he's gonna rip you a new one..
But for me, double immel is way safer than either the chandelle or the spiral climb.
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Its not a yoyo, its a climbing course reversal.
http://www.ufly.com/lessons/max_maneuvers1.html
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Originally posted by Wotan
umm no you couldn't because you aren't doing a series of anything, its one continous manuever.
Now you are being silly. A loop is one continous maneuver, but it can be broken down into a concecutive immel and split-s if you break it into 180's. What does your spiral climb look like when you break it into 180' turns?
I am one who brought a 'spiral' and if you classify what I meant incorrectly I will correct it. If the lurker reads 'spiral' in my reply the reads 'spiral 180' in yours it only adds to the confusion thus my clarification...
A chandelle is rather technical in how its performed, a spiral climb is not.
First of all this thread has no 'spiral' anything at all as the subject, so dont tell me who is interjecting with confusing information. Secondly, there is more than one definition of a chandell, aerobatic-30 degree bank (need not be taken to stall speed), obstructed approach-only involves climbing 90deg. Now here "The Chandelle, in very simple terms, is a climbing turn. That turn can range from 90 to 180 degrees." is the definition I stated in even less words. Since everything except your "one continous manuever" is a gimmick, mabey you should start a new thread about it.
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My reply was directed at the the original poster.
You confused what I said and I corrected you.
A chandelle by definition is a climbing course reversal which can be used defensivle or offensivley depending on the circumstance. The sprial climb in the context I described above is not. You confused the issue with the 'spiral 180' comment and I clarified it.
If you don't like that stfu and put me on your ignore list...
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The thing I enjoy most about AH is making new friends :)
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I was never your 'friend'...
and don't expect to be any time soon...
Hals- und Beinbruch!!!
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Give me ten bucks and I'll be your friend.
...or
7.52330 Euro..
For 2.50 ( 1.88083 Euro ) I'll just say hi when your online.
I accept paypal.
Email me.
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You should look into your rates dude. I charge $15USD. $5 more if I actually have to wing with them :D
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I have varied rates dependent on what is requested.
A listing is here:
Friend services (http://www.theblueknights.com/untitled1.html)
They are per tour pricing.
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LOL
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Thanks for the replies, it has been pretty educational.
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BTW franchises are available..
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Originally posted by Murdr
You should look into your rates dude. I charge $15USD. $5 more if I actually have to wing with them :D
20 Bucks Whats up with that? Then whats up with charging me $50. :D AM I that bad:rofl
Crims
479th Raiders
And Yes I know I am that Bad Already:D
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(http://jollyrogers.info/images/uberimmels.jpg)
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Originally posted by Arlo
(http://jollyrogers.info/images/uberimmels.jpg)
Ah that's the spirallingloopychanyrollrever salyloopyimmel climb (with pike) merge
Gotta be a hog pilot to be able to do that one Arlo - don't confuse things ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
(http://jollyrogers.info/images/uberimmels.jpg)
Thanks, I'll put this to good use in the jug immediately.
Wait I already know that one. It's where my prop transforms into a roto-tiller.
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Originally posted by Redd
Ah that's the spirallingloopychanyrollrever salyloopyimmel climb (with pike) merge
Gotta be a hog pilot to be able to do that one Arlo - don't confuse things ;) [/B]
I think you overlooked the tripple axle into the fakie kickflip indy in the center portion of that diagram.
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I see Arlo's working on fillers to get up to the 7000 posts mark.
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7000? No chit? (Looks over) :eek: :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
7000? No chit? (Looks over) :eek: :D
you BBS potato Arlo :D
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Originally posted by crims
20 Bucks Whats up with that? Then whats up with charging me $50. :D AM I that bad:rofl
Dont forget, that includes AKAK, multi-friend discount, and you also get the "bait man" discount. You got a real bargin :D
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Originally posted by Hajo
Red Dog....in Ole Airwarrior we called it the "Cuban"...some call it the vertical eight also.
The Cuban and Half Cuban are different maneuvers and was not another name for the Double Immelman.
ack-ack
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Immelman=1/2 loop
Half Cuban=5/8 loop
(http://www.airwarrioronline.com/films/halfcuban.jpg)
(http://www.airwarrioronline.com/films/cuban8.jpg)
I wonder how much the charge will be when nopoop recognizes the image components.
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Originally posted by nopoop
I have varied rates dependent on what is requested.
A listing is here:
Friend services (http://www.theblueknights.com/untitled1.html)
They are per tour pricing.
:rofl
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Originally posted by Wotan
Its not a yoyo, its a climbing course reversal.
http://www.ufly.com/lessons/max_maneuvers1.html
It's a useless move.
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I think this thread has been pretty informative. I especially like that reference to a 109 fighting a spit. I honestly think both maneuvers have their place in the MA (double immelman and spiral climb or whatever term you guys have agreed on), my question would be, since I really don't fly many 109s presently, is:
You are in a G10 and are being pursued by a spit (lets just say its either a 5 or a 9 because in the game you won't know which) you both are at the same alt, lets say 5k, and your speeds from what you can tell are pretty equal at 275. So if you are in the 109 and you want to try a spiral climb like wotan suggests at what point do you start the manuever in terms of how close the spit gets to you? Seems to me if you were to start when he is at d1000+, while you are in your turn he'd be able to close the distance and get a decent snap shot at you. But then again if he gets anywhere near d600, most of these guys will start blasting away at anything in the air, and you can't really rule out a lucky shot.
Seems I am just missing the "feel" for this maneuver... anyone have any thoughts on this one?
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Co-e at about d700-600 or so I would start a wide circle with a shallow climb inorder to suck the spit in and slowly tighten the turn and the climb angle all the time watching the spit over my shoulder.
You want him to commit to you and leave him thinking if I only pull a little more I will get him.
Once you see his wing wobble you can roll over and drop back on him because he will either stall or roll out of the turn and try to get away.
It's a useless move.
Who cares?
You didn't know what it was in your last post. I told you...
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Well, I'm not really a dedicated 109 pilot anymore.. but when I used to fly I typically wouldn't actually just go into a "spiral climb".
If there was a Spit going the same speed as any 109, the Spit is going to do fine in the vertical. I'd really level out and get your speed up to ~350 or so, then pull into a low-G (3ish) immelman. If the Spit "cuts the corner" so to speak, you can do a couple things. If he is headed right at you, I'd recommend getting a little wiggle room by getting off to one side of him and pulling up into another immelman. If he has a shot, you may want to go into a spiral instead, but you still want to go vertical.
If you just pull up into any kind of vertical move with a spit closer than about 2k, odds are you are going to die if he is co alt with you and close to your speed. He doesn't have to actually be able to get as high as you, he just needs to get within ~600 yards of your motionless plane and have some kind of control.
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Originally posted by Howitzer
I think this thread has been pretty informative. I especially like that reference to a 109 fighting a spit. I honestly think both maneuvers have their place in the MA (double immelman and spiral climb or whatever term you guys have agreed on), my question would be, since I really don't fly many 109s presently, is:
You are in a G10 and are being pursued by a spit (lets just say its either a 5 or a 9 because in the game you won't know which) you both are at the same alt, lets say 5k, and your speeds from what you can tell are pretty equal at 275. So if you are in the 109 and you want to try a spiral climb like wotan suggests at what point do you start the manuever in terms of how close the spit gets to you? Seems to me if you were to start when he is at d1000+, while you are in your turn he'd be able to close the distance and get a decent snap shot at you. But then again if he gets anywhere near d600, most of these guys will start blasting away at anything in the air, and you can't really rule out a lucky shot.
Seems I am just missing the "feel" for this maneuver... anyone have any thoughts on this one?
Exactly, same speed at d1000 and you start spiraling the 109 you are dead. AT best you will get oil damage or a pilot wound. That shorty is over. Unless you have the better turning plane, turning with the bad guy 1000 behind you will most likely result in death.
So, if you are D1K and at the same speed with the spit, start a 1K or 2K clime. That will slow him down. Once the distance starts growing stipen your clime. What I do at that point is waching what he does. If he tries to follow I keep climing and stipening the clime. There will come a point that the spit will either give up (now you can start the fight again), will eventually stall, or you will be able to loop over and drop on him.
(Excluding the 38) Spiral climb when you have the better climbing plane, gives away your advantage and most likelly will get you killed. Fighting is simple really, once you are able to estimate accuratly the other guys e state. Thats the only hard part. Once you know he is coalt and co e, its easy. You are in a g10. There is only one thing g10 is the best at. Use it. Straight shalow climb and stipen slowlly. That move does not have a cool name though.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Co-e at about d700-600 or so I would start a wide circle with a shallow climb inorder to suck the spit in and slowly tighten the turn and the climb angle all the time watching the spit over my shoulder.
You want him to commit to you and leave him thinking if I only pull a little more I will get him.
Given net lag and hizookas, you just died. Not to mention that the spit will be able to tighten the turn better than you.
In anycase, anyplane co-e at d600 on your six and its time for tea in the tower most of the time.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Given net lag and hizookas, you just died. Not to mention that the spit will be able to tighten the turn better than you.
In anycase, anyplane co-e at d600 on your six and its time for tea in the tower most of the time.
Nonsense...
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Last time a played AH for more then just a quick 1 tour 're-trial' was as Batz..
Flying the G-6 never above 10k, always in the fur never running using that 'spiral' just like I said above:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/334_1101743674_batz.jpg)
The G-6 can barely out climb anything, its top speed is well below 400 under 10k, almost all planes can out turn it.
I only flew with the 3cm, no gondolas..
Fly how you want but don't tell me whats what.
I am not posting the above image just to show 'scores'. Urchin's 10 times better then me, so is Wildthing but don't make blanket statements as if they apply to every one.
My last 're-trial' of AH was in tour 53 (returned as wotan). I mostly flew the A8 with ex-squaddies but spent some time in the G-6 and everything was still the same.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Flying the G-6 never above 10k, always in the fur never running using that 'spiral' just like I said above:
Good for you. No one said you weren't. Now, assuming I understand the spiral (and as a noob I probably cannot grasp the concept) you will be kind of slow as you reach the top. In a fur, thats one of the best ways to die. Then again, a fur to you maybe a lot of red and green at 1K and you comming in at 3K at 400mph trying to get someone to follow up.
The G-6 can barely out climb anything, its top speed is well below 400 under 10k, almost all planes can out turn it.
So, co alt and e, at d600 and the better climbin/better turning plane loses because you do a spiral. Thats great !!! Good thing the Germans did not figure that out cause my German is a little weak.
Fly how you want but don't tell me whats what.
Got it. Only you can tell us what's what. I am not telling you whats what. I am saing that if you turn that not good turner/climer plane at d600 against any noob with cannons, you are dead. 50s probably have already removed parts from your plane beginning at 800. Again, I am talking about equal states of e. Also, because of net lag, when you see 600, the bad guy could be seing 400 and hit sprites on your plane.
Now, take your pills and relax. Maybe, do a spiral or two. It was just an opinion
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Originally posted by dedalos
Good for you. No one said you weren't. Now, assuming I understand the spiral (and as a noob I probably cannot grasp the concept) you will be kind of slow as you reach the top. In a fur, thats one of the best ways to die. Then again, a fur to you maybe a lot of red and green at 1K and you comming in at 3K at 400mph trying to get someone to follow up.
Yeah i sort of have to agree here with Dedalos.. I wonder what kind of furballs those were...
Flying such a tedious plane too..
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Originally posted by RedDg
Thanks, I'll put this to good use in the jug immediately.
Wait I already know that one. It's where my prop transforms into a roto-tiller.
HAH! You guys are soooo limited. Why, I can do that one in ANY plane in AH!:p
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Originally posted by Wotan
Once you see his wing wobble you can roll over and drop back on him because he will either stall or roll out of the turn and try to get away.
One of my favorite moves against wannabe ropers is to fake stalling out by "wobbling" my wings on purpose even though I'm over 200mph. Almost all of them will, at that point, roll over and come down for the easy rope kill. Or so they think.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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It was just an opinion
Here's what you said as it was a fact:
you just died.
You may die tooling around in an La7 but it doesn't happen to me that way...
I wonder what kind of furballs those were...
The ones where you don't toggle your eng on/off...
Lotsa folks have flown with me in this game, Urchin has, we were squaddies for years. Maybe he will tell you...
One of my favorite moves against wannabe ropers is to fake stalling out by "wobbling" my wings on purpose even though I'm over 200mph. Almost all of them will, at that point, roll over and come down for the easy rope kill. Or so they think.
I have been caught by that few times. Drex got me in the CT one time in an F6F I was in niki. I came down fast on him and to my surpirse he killed me.
I asked him 'how did you have that e for that...
He said I fooled you...
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Originally posted by Wotan
The ones where you don't toggle your eng on/off...
O those!! I prefer to call em "Hit and Run" furballs.. You know the ones that mostly consist of higher cons trying to cherry pick me a new a-hole..
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No, I meant the ones where you don't have time to think about the 'ole on/off switch...
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Sure thing chief! :aok
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Originally posted by Wotan
You may die tooling around in an La7 but it doesn't happen to me that way...
Oh no, tell me you did not look at my stats. I've been busted. Now every one knows I have been in an LA7. Now I don't have any credibility what so ever any more.
The fact that I have been in an LA7 makes your statements correct. You must know whats what because I have been in an LA7. Did you know that I have flown 262s also? That should make you an even better pilot.
Going to the MA now to get 2 kills in a 110 and land them. Then, I will post the image of the land message here. After that, I will know whats what and you will be wrong :rofl
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Originally posted by dedalos
Oh no, tell me you did not look at my stats. I've been busted. Now every one knows I have been in an LA7. Now I don't have any credibility what so ever any more.
The fact that I have been in an LA7 makes your statements correct. You must know whats what because I have been in an LA7. Did you know that I have flown 262s also? That should make you an even better pilot.
Going to the MA now to get 2 kills in a 110 and land them. Then, I will post the image of the land message here. After that, I will know whats what and you will be wrong :rofl
You paranoid about something?
I don't care anything about you outside of your stupid claims in response what I said...
My reply was an answer to Howitzer's question:
Just a reminder his question was:
Seems I am just missing the "feel" for this maneuver... anyone have any thoughts on this one?
Your reply was whole bunch of nonsense as I said above. To support what I said I posted my G-6 scores because thats the actual plane I fly. According to you that plane should 'get me killed' every time.
It didn't, of course I took a look at what planes you fly to get an idea of your experiences to help me understand where you are coming from. I don't care about your K/D and can't tell you what it is in any plane.
But you fly the La7 more then anything else and if you make a definitive claim like:
you just died.
I will call bull**** on you. Now get back to your La7...
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Wotan,
I don't see how what I fly makes your BS claims valid. They are still BS. Yes your plane will get you killed everytime if you do a spiral in furbal or if you start the spiral withing d600 or 800 from the bad guy. (remember all this is when equal states). For you to claim that not only you will not die but you will win most of those situations shows how mach you know about the game.
Howitzer is missing the feel for the move because he really does get it. If you read his post he is telling you the same thing I am. The spit will close in on you and get a shot if at 1K. At D600 you will be another stat.
The spiral is very valid and it works. Just don;t tell people to start it when at close range, at equal e states, and with a plane that does not outclime or outturn the bad guy. Its just stupid to even argue that.
As far as the lala goes, if you looked more carefully you would see that I fly a different plane in every tour. In this is 110 and LA7. Last one was 110, typh,Spit,p38. The one before was spit, g2, la7. I fly everything. In any case, what I or anyone else flies, does not make what you said valid.
If you want to call BS, call it on your self. But, thats expected from an expert that does not even play the game.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Wotan,
I don't see how what I fly makes your BS claims valid. They are still BS. Yes your plane will get you killed everytime if you do a spiral in furbal or if you start the spiral withing d600 or 800 from the bad guy. (remember all this is when equal states). For you to claim that not only you will not die but you will win most of those situations shows how mach you know about the game.
Howitzer is missing the feel for the move because he really does get it. If you read his post he is telling you the same thing I am. The spit will close in on you and get a shot if at 1K. At D600 you will be another stat.
The spiral is very valid and it works. Just don;t tell people to start it when at close range, at equal e states, and with a plane that does not outclime or outturn the bad guy. Its just stupid to even argue that.
As far as the lala goes, if you looked more carefully you would see that I fly a different plane in every tour. In this is 110 and LA7. Last one was 110, typh,Spit,p38. The one before was spit, g2, la7. I fly everything. In any case, what I or anyone else flies, does not make what you said valid.
If you want to call BS, call it on your self. But, thats expected from an expert that does not even play the game.
None of that has anything to do with the question Howitzer asked:
You are in a G10 and are being pursued by a spit (lets just say its either a 5 or a 9 because in the game you won't know which) you both are at the same alt, lets say 5k, and your speeds from what you can tell are pretty equal at 275. So if you are in the 109 and you want to try a spiral climb like wotan suggests at what point do you start the manuever in terms of how close the spit gets to you? Seems to me if you were to start when he is at d1000+, while you are in your turn he'd be able to close the distance and get a decent snap shot at you. But then again if he gets anywhere near d600, most of these guys will start blasting away at anything in the air, and you can't really rule out a lucky shot.
Seems I am just missing the "feel" for this maneuver... anyone have any thoughts on this one?
So his premise is :
You are in a G-10 and co - energy with a spit d-700 / d-600 back.
A G-10 can out accelerate (so can the G-6) and easily out climb a spit (not so easy for the G-6).
As the G-10 goes up into a climbing turn the spit will close a bit until he tries to follow. He will only get a shot by pulling lead. The G-10 or G-6 for that matter can find a sweet spot where he can hold a given climb angle and speed. The higher the angle and the tighter the turn the more the spit has to pull to get his site on target and as such the more 'ground he loses' on the G-10. If the G-10 gets in trouble or makes an error all the G-10 needs to do is level out or go nose down and accelerate away.
So no the G-10 is 'not dead' and since I do this very thing in a G-6 and don't 'end up dead' clearly you are mistaken. I no longer have my Ah films on my website. Its been some time since I played Ah regularly. I came back for the AH2 betas as Helvik and flew the 1st AH2 tour. This worked for me in AH1 and was even easier in AH2 since the icons moved below the aircraft.
I don't play the game because I don't like main game play. Until ToD arrives I only 'fly' in FB/PF. The same move I describe in this thread I use there. My guys are getting together on Wed (tomorrow) and if you have that game you can join us and see for yourself. In FB/PF I only fly the G-14. Slower then a G-10 and faster on wep (MW-50) then a standard G-6. We fight everything from spits to p51s.
My reply to your definitive claim that 'I just died' is 'nonsense'.
I don't care what plane you fly or how you fly it or what your k/d is. My only interest in looking at what planes you fly was to get an idea of your pov. I simply looked at what plane you got the most kills in. Usually its a reasonable indicator of what plane you fly the most. If you say you fly everything, well then ok...
You can get 1000 kills and no deaths or die every time it has bearing at all. The only reason I posted my G-6 score was as a counter to your claim. I am sure there are 1000 people in this game that are far better then me.
However, if you think I am some 20k cherry picking bore and zzz dweeb then oh well, I can only suggest asking those who have flown with me.
But what ever makes you feel better.
As I stated above I fly the very way I outlined to Howitzer and as such 'don't tell me what's what'.
You have your opinion, but it certainly isn't a fact.
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Originally posted by Wotan
None of that has anything to do with the question Howitzer asked:
So his premise is :
You are in a G-10 and co - energy with a spit d-700 / d-600 back.
OK, maybe I don't get it then. If the spit tigthens the climb and turn from 600 out he will end up very close to 200. But in any case, I am not going to convince you about this. Maybe the problem is the other game you play. The FM maybe different.
bytheway, since stats can give you an idea of my point of view, most kills this tour where in a 110 (200) with the lala second (100) followed by 38, g10 and g2, before that 110,Typh,Spit,P38,B26 and before that Spit, G2, La7. It seems that even though you don't care about stats you thought that pointing out the LA7 would somehow discredit what I had to say? :rofl
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I checked you career stats for plane usage. I didn't look at your stats for each tour because they are irrelevant and it would have consumed more time then I wished to bother with. I don't know why you are so hung about flying or not flying the La7; fly what you want I could careless.
What discredits what you have said isn't the La7 but my own experience. I would rather fight 20 la7s or Spits then 1 bore and zzz P5run. I will ahve to check my own career stats but I don't think I ever flew an La7 (could be wrong) but early in AH I flew the La-5FN quite a bit. It was a fun plane.
I played AH every tour for 3 years and intermittently since then so I am very familiar with the AH FM. From the pre 1.04 FM up to the current AH2 FM. In AH1 doing this move was more dangerous then in AH2 since the icons were above the plane and the hit resolution was larger.
FB/PF FM is very similar to AHs but with some noticeable differences.
As I said I fly the same way in both. I took what I did in AH and used it there.
OK, maybe I don't get it then. If the spit tigthens the climb and turn from 600 out he will end up very close to 200. But in any case, I am not going to convince you about this.
The spit isn't going to shoot into warp speed because you start a turn. You are not pulling a 6g black out turn.
As I said in another post above you start wide and shallow and then increase the angle and tighten the turn. Even if the spit has a slow closure you can start the turn slightly nose down to offset his closure then start the climbing turn.
Initially the spit will close but you will be out of plane, off to one side and slightly above. You aren't just flying level at d-600 waiting to catch a bullet.
The spit will need to pull lead to get a hit. As he is thinking about the shot you drag him up. It’s not an instant reverse. You may take him through 1 or 2 360s.
The 109 is not going to lose all its energy nor is the spit going to make any reasonable gain.
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All this technical stuff really hurts my head, everyone has their opinions on different methods of flying, i think it would be real manly if we just quit worrying about all this, and to each his own "technique"..