Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB73 on November 26, 2004, 11:20:20 AM
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from here:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/278618.asp
A spiritual leader, jailed in killings
Shooting confuses Vang's friends
By VIKKI ORTIZ and NAHAL TOOSI
vortiz@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Nov. 25, 2004
A man who authorities say admitted gunning down six hunters in northern Wisconsin was a respected spiritual leader in the Hmong community who comforted the sick and dying.
The week before Chai Soua Vang, 36, went hunting on opening weekend in Wisconsin, he performed a funeral ritual in St. Paul.
"Other people think he's a killer - but in our culture, we just think he's a regular person," Ber Xiong of St. Paul said through his son, adding in English, "He's my friend."
In Stockton, Calif., where Vang lived in the 1990s, neighbors remembered him as a nice man who presided over a busy household that was often filled with visiting family members. He drove a semitrailer truck, and sometimes a bulk cement truck, so he was often away from home, but Vang told a neighbor that he wanted to move to Minnesota, seeking a better life for his wife and children.
Pheng Lo, executive director of the Lao Family Community of Stockton, remembered Vang as an outgoing guy with a friendly face. Which makes it so difficult for Lo to understand how the man he knew could be accused of shooting eight hunters and killing six of them.
"I said something must really, really have happened to him. He was so mad or angry, or maybe he had mental problems lately," Lo said.
Friends in disbelief
In St. Paul, Xiong, 42, said he felt confused and heartbroken after learning of his friend's arrest this week because he could not imagine him killing anyone.
"I thought, 'How could the problems happen so fast? He never had any problems before,' " Xiong said through the translation of his 14-year-old son, Dang Xiong.
Similar disbelief was echoed by some of Vang's St. Paul neighbors Thursday, as they gathered for Thanksgiving meals on the same block where the accused man's two-story yellow house stood with uncollected mail piling up in a basket on the porch.
"He's a nice guy," said next-door neighbor Koua Vang, who is not related. "He lived a quiet life."
Authorities said Vang, 36, told them he opened fire with an SKS semiautomatic rifle on a hunting party in Sawyer County on Sunday after being told he was trespassing on private land. Vang was sitting in a tree stand on private property when confronted. Witnesses said he climbed down from the stand, removed the scope from his rifle and began firing at the hunters who tried to flee but were shot, some in the back, as they ran through the forest.
Vang has given authorities a sharply different account of what happened, saying the shooting didn't start until after a tense, racially charged confrontation in which a hunter fired at him first. Vang is being held in Sawyer County Jail on cash bail of $2.5 million. Charges are expected to be filed Monday.
Wanting to know more
The conflicting stories have left Xiong hungry for more information.
"I want to know what happened. Did they say something bad to him for something to happen?" Xiong asked in his own English. "I'm so sad. I'm so sorry."
Xiong said he first met Vang in 2000 when a co-worker, who is a relative of Vang's, invited him along on a hunting trip. Xiong said Vang's passion for hunting was immediately apparent. He bagged a deer almost effortlessly and had a strong command of the Department of Natural Resources rules and regulations.
Although Xiong prefers to hunt in Minnesota because he thinks it's easier to differentiate between public and private land, Vang mostly liked to hunt in Wisconsin because he said he was familiar with the land divisions, Xiong said.
During one hunting trip to Green Lake, Wis., Xiong and Vang were issued $244 citations for trespassing. But Xiong said they believed the warden was mistaken because they were on public land.
The citation did not ruin the mood of the trip for Xiong, Vang and Xiong's then-12-year-old son, Dang, and they feasted on a homemade chicken and rice lunch Vang had packed, Xiong said.
If Xiong couldn't join Vang on hunting trips, Vang would stop by with packaged venison to share with his friends and neighbors.
A religious leader
In time, Xiong and Vang became friends outside of hunting, and Xiong said he learned his friend was a shaman, or respected spiritual leader for the Hmong community in the St. Paul-Minneapolis area.
While Vang was living in Stockton, Calif., he often participated in religious activities at his home, said a neighbor.
Gerzon Dominguez said he often heard the traditional handbells used in Hmong ceremonies coming from Vang's home. One time he remembers the family slaughtering a goat in their yard, another shaman practice that is common before traditional Hmong funerals.
Dominguez, 52, recalled Vang telling him that homes and land were cheaper in Minnesota and he figured he could get a better, higher-paying job to support his family.
"He was really the head of the family. His word is their word," Dominguez said in an interview Thursday afternoon at his duplex next to the light-blue duplex where Vang lived in the 1990s.
The Stockton neighborhood is culturally mixed with a number of Hmong families, though some neighbors said there aren't as many now because some Hmong families, like the Vangs, have moved away in recent years.
Vang was active in Stockton's Hmong community, volunteering his time for youth activities, Lo said. He helped organize youth sports games and leagues in soccer, volleyball and karate. He also arranged field trips for children and volunteered to help in the community's annual Hmong New Year celebration.
Hmong shaman are similar to medicine men in American Indian culture - people blessed with the gift to communicate with ancestors, said Lo Neng Kiatoukaysy, executive director of the Hmong/American Friendship Association in Milwaukee. They are called upon to perform spiritual ceremonies for sick or dying people in the community.
Kiatoukaysy said he could not confirm that Vang was a shaman because there is no official training or certification required for the esteemed title. But he said it was likely because in Hmong culture, every community is blessed with about five to 10 shaman.
"That means he must be really respected in the community," Kiatoukaysy said.
more craziness in Wisconsin all i got to say.
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You know if he was teased and called names I guess that explains everything. There is no excuse for racism.
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Sounds like it's the victims account vs his.
Hopefully they will get to the bottom of it.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Sounds like it's the victims account vs his.
Hopefully they will get to the bottom of it.
he admitted openly to "stalking" a few of the victims, and another he came back to and said "you aren't dead yet?" BLAM to the head.
the woman he killed was trying to hide behind an ATV, he came around the side of it to shoot here from less than 5 feet.
thats a shaman for ya.
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Sounds like he killed 6 people, running down 2 of them to shoot them in the back. I hope they fry him rather than having tax dollars support him in prison.
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Charlie don't hunt either.
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Actually I can understand his mentality in all this. First time I shot an animal didnt think much of it. Then I shot some more and more and it was alot of fun. Then one day I actualy took a look at the animal I shot and felt remorse so I stopepd my rampage of neighbor hood animal shooting. Now take a dear hunter into consideration. He hunts dear and keeps the head or will eat the meat. He will have to chopp it up and will eat it for dinner. From the perspective of the average city dweller, thats pretty unpleasant. So I can imagine that after killing animals for so many years and such that it can make you insensative towards life. Some people can kill dear and some can also kill dear and people. Its just the next step of insensativity towards life in general. We are all meat eaters but we are shielded from the gruesomness of the slaughter house by the meat industry. Beef is a burger not an animal. I think most people are clueless in the thoughts and physcology it takes to effortlessly take a life in modern society. This is not meant to be a new journal into physology or anything, just my opinion so dont take it too seriously.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Sounds like he killed 6 people, running down 2 of them to shoot them in the back. I hope they fry him rather than having tax dollars support him in prison.
wisco has no death penalty, dahlmer went to jail, albeit for a short time.
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Originally posted by JB73
wisco has no death penalty, dahlmer went to jail, albeit for a short time.
There was initial talk of charging him with federal crimes to apply the death penalty. I haven't heard anything the last few days, though.
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Originally posted by Habu
You know if he was teased and called names I guess that explains everything. There is no excuse for racism.
No excuse for killing people even if they do tease you and call you names.
Not far from where I live is a small lake. Fishing regulations specific to that lake are clearly posted as you walk in through the only gate in the fence. Regulations for that lake include, no fishing with bait, artificial flies and lures ONLY. Specific bag limits and size limits are also posted.
Asians more than any other group of people violated those rules daily. Many times it was the same people violating those rules day after day. Every single time I mentioned the rules to the people violating them I was accused of rascism and trying to relegate them to *2nd class citizens*.
Police officers and Game Wardens gave up writing them tickets because they go into court and say they need those fish for food since they are so poor. Funny thing about them being *poor*......they drove newer, nicer vehicles than I did.
If this individual was in fact hunting on private property without permission he should have offered an apology and left immediately.
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When in undoubt-able guilt, play the race card. Worked for OJ
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I say the Shaman was possessed by the spirit of a dead deer killed by the hunters earlier in the season or in a previous season. Finding a Shaman to inhabit, the deer's spirit wasted no time in tracking down the hunters and blasting them into non-existence ala the "Deer Hunter" line of games. Shaman gets an exorcism, he's free in a week. Case closed.
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So when they throw the 'Switch' soul will be at peace. He's got that going for him.....
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Originally posted by Otto
So when they throw the 'Switch' soul will be at peace. He's got that going for him.....
kinda like Carl....
when he dies, on his deathbed, he will recieve total consciousness
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Originally posted by JB73
wisco has no death penalty, dahlmer went to jail, albeit for a short time.
This would be a fitting conclusion for Vang as well.
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Originally posted by JoOwEn
Actually I can understand his mentality in all this. First time I shot an animal didnt think much of it. Then I shot some more and more and it was alot of fun. Then one day I actualy took a look at the animal I shot and felt remorse so I stopepd my rampage of neighbor hood animal shooting. Now take a dear hunter into consideration. He hunts dear and keeps the head or will eat the meat. He will have to chopp it up and will eat it for dinner. From the perspective of the average city dweller, thats pretty unpleasant. So I can imagine that after killing animals for so many years and such that it can make you insensative towards life. Some people can kill dear and some can also kill dear and people. Its just the next step of insensativity towards life in general. We are all meat eaters but we are shielded from the gruesomness of the slaughter house by the meat industry. Beef is a burger not an animal. I think most people are clueless in the thoughts and physcology it takes to effortlessly take a life in modern society. This is not meant to be a new journal into physology or anything, just my opinion so dont take it too seriously.
Don`t worry, we won`t take it too seriously. The first hint came in your spelling of deer. The second came in the rest of that load of horse manure.
I do , however, think you should seek professional help immediately. The use of "dear" in this instance just has to hold some hidden, under the surface desire of yours. :D
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Originally posted by JB73
kinda like Carl....
when he dies, on his deathbed, he will recieve total consciousness
:)
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Originally posted by JB73
kinda like Carl....
when he dies, on his deathbed, he will recieve total consciousness
Hopefully this will be soon.
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One of the posts brought up a point of feeling remorse after killing an animal an looking at it. I'm a meat eater, yet I do love animals and expect I'd feel the same if I was one who had to kill them. How do hunters overcome this feeling? Does it ever bother you? Now I know there are many playful comebacks (like how could a rib roast bother you?), but I'm just wondering how a hunter deals with it. If I buy a pack of pork chops, it doesn't look like an animal, so denial is pretty easy. Still, unless I was starving, I don't think I could slaughter a pig once I looked at it living, or looked at its eyes. How does the hunter get over his empathy toward animals?
Dont take this as anti-sportsman or anti-hunting. I'm just curious as I've never done it, and wonder if its always easy.
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Opus,
As a hunter and former butcher in a meat shop, I don't feel remorse per se. I respect the animal, (more so the wild ones like deer, elk, etc.) and enjoy the taking and butchering of them. I think my comfort with this arises from the fact that I grew up on a farm where we either ate something we grew from a babe to eating age or we killed it (deer, fish, grouse) and cleaned it.
I get bothered when an animal suffers wether it is a poorly shot animal or an animal raised in a environment not suitable for it.
Don't know if I shed any light on your question.
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"I learned a thang or two from 'Charlie' don't-cha know.."
"You better stay away from Copperhead Road"
..........................Ste ve Earl
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If it's just his word againstheirs, then innocent until proven tugildty.
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JB,
OT here - whats the obession with fat women who are also ugly?
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Originally posted by Tarmac
proven tugildty.
Down with tugildty!!!!!! :D
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Originally posted by dfl8rms
Opus,
As a hunter and former butcher in a meat shop, I don't feel remorse per se. I respect the animal, (more so the wild ones like deer, elk, etc.) and enjoy the taking and butchering of them. I think my comfort with this arises from the fact that I grew up on a farm where we either ate something we grew from a babe to eating age or we killed it (deer, fish, grouse) and cleaned it.
I get bothered when an animal suffers wether it is a poorly shot animal or an animal raised in a environment not suitable for it.
Don't know if I shed any light on your question.
Similar feelings. As a kid I shot and killed a lot of animals. Without thinking. Some (like gophers) were pests, but most was just killing. Now I look back and realize that if I'm not going to eat it or use the remains in some way (I suppose I could be making clothes or something out of them), I should leave it alone. Now that's the route I take.
As said above, you should go to lengths to make sure there is no unneccesary suffering. But, it's still an animal. Sorry PETA, but it's not a person or companion. To me, respecting the animal means killing it cleanly, eating what you kill, and not taking more than the enviorment will allow.
I enjoy bird and big game hunting. I also grew up on a farm. To me, what you killed or raised to butcher tastes better than what you bought at the store.
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I don't particularly like harvesting or butchering anmimals anymore because I have grown soft and lazy. I do eat meat tho and know where it comes from.
If you eat meat and are afraid to see the process then you better get on your knees and kiss the privates of those who do the work instead of hypocritical and pointless moralizing.
lazs
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Originally posted by opus
One of the posts brought up a point of feeling remorse after killing an animal an looking at it. I'm a meat eater, yet I do love animals and expect I'd feel the same if I was one who had to kill them. How do hunters overcome this feeling? Does it ever bother you? Now I know there are many playful comebacks (like how could a rib roast bother you?), but I'm just wondering how a hunter deals with it. If I buy a pack of pork chops, it doesn't look like an animal, so denial is pretty easy. Still, unless I was starving, I don't think I could slaughter a pig once I looked at it living, or looked at its eyes. How does the hunter get over his empathy toward animals?
Dont take this as anti-sportsman or anti-hunting. I'm just curious as I've never done it, and wonder if its always easy.
I suppose it's different for others. I've known people who just loved to kill things. didn't spend any more time around them than I had to, but I've known a few.
but speaking just for myself, it's not about losing the empathy. I still can appreciate the beauty of the animal, feel remorse if I was sloppy and let it suffer more than necessary.
you just level with yourself on a few basic truths- 1. you are a meat eater, 2. he's lower on the food-chain than you.
I simply see it as more honest and more honorable. the kill, and ultimately dinner, are the natural conclusion to the hunt. this is not a time for philosophy, you've tracked him, found him, set up the shot, time to stop thinking and finish the job. it's what comes next, and as with most things in life it doesn't really make a damn how you feel about it, just get it done.
I've hunted off & on for 30 years. I still puke every time I open a body cavity. I still feel like crap if a poorly placed shot leaves a wounded animal, taking a day or so to die while I follow it for what seems like forever.
I think it is much more honorable, and definitely more honest with yourself to do your own dirty-work. I've also found that for the most part, people who take the life out of the meat themselves have a much greater respect for the animal and the meal.
I also think doing it yourself shows a level of respect for the animal. similar to the feeling behind having to put a good dog down. most people aren't going to find it joyful to put down a loyal dog, but it would be wrong to have someone else put down your dog for you.
one thing to consider. if you take a guy who relies 100% on game for meat (not exactly common these days I know), and compare him to a guy who eats only out of the grocery store. I'm sure you'll find that the hunter has a much clearer idea of how many animals have died in the name of filling his belly.
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I notice he's described as Hmong from Laos. When I first saw his picture it occurred to me that he might be Hmong. Coincidentally I was re reading my copy of 'The Ravens' by Christopher Robbins which is a history of the FAC's who served in the CIA's secret war in Laos in the sixties. The Hmong did most of the fighting on the American side and have suffered for it since, being heavily persecuted by the Communist government. Apparently the Hmong are essentially one generation away from being stone age hill tribespeople.
I'm guessing, but he must have being involved in guerrlla warfare when he was in Laos. So veggie speculation as to the possibility that he became desensitised to killing by shooting deer is nonsense. He must have killed men before probably in Laos and probably in battle. How else could you explain the fact that all of the people he shot were armed and could have shot back. He hunted and killed them like the pro he probably is. Taking the scope off his SKS is a clue there. Somethng must have cracked in him in some way. There is a lot more to this than a simple dispute over a tree stand or racist remarks. If one of the hunters fired first that may have pushed him over the edge. It's all speculation until we hear the facts.
We can anticipate this argument in his defence when it comes to court.
The fate of the Hmong in general is a tragedy and probably those hunters are in fact another casualty of the war in Laos.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
I'm guessing, but he must have being involved in guerrlla warfare when he was in Laos. So veggie speculation as to the possibility that he became desensitised to killing by shooting deer is nonsense. He must have killed men before probably in Laos and probably in battle. How else could you explain the fact that all of the people he shot were armed and could have shot back. He hunted and killed them like the pro he probably is. Taking the scope off his SKS is a clue there. Somethng must have cracked in him in some way. There is a lot more to this than a simple dispute over a tree stand or racist remarks. If one of the hunters fired first that may have pushed him over the edge. It's all speculation until we hear the facts.
We can anticipate this argument in his defence when it comes to court.
The fate of the Hmong in general is a tragedy and probably those hunters are in fact another casualty of the war in Laos.
the people he killed were all unarmed except 1
thats right there was 1 gun in the whole group.
also he was in the US military, i forget which. he came here as a child i believe.
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http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/nov04/statement112304edits01.pdf
For those interested in reading the report.
Edit: I found something curious about the weapon being described as a "Saiga SKS". I suppose a Saiga rifle could be confused for an SKS, but I'd think an official police report would get the facts straight. (Not that it really matters)
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Originally posted by cpxxx
I notice he's described as Hmong from Laos. When I first saw his picture it occurred to me that he might be Hmong. Coincidentally I was re reading my copy of 'The Ravens' by Christopher Robbins which is a history of the FAC's who served in the CIA's secret war in Laos in the sixties. The Hmong did most of the fighting on the American side and have suffered for it since, being heavily persecuted by the Communist government. Apparently the Hmong are essentially one generation away from being stone age hill tribespeople.
I'm guessing, but he must have being involved in guerrlla warfare when he was in Laos. So veggie speculation as to the possibility that he became desensitised to killing by shooting deer is nonsense. He must have killed men before probably in Laos and probably in battle. How else could you explain the fact that all of the people he shot were armed and could have shot back. He hunted and killed them like the pro he probably is. Taking the scope off his SKS is a clue there. Somethng must have cracked in him in some way. There is a lot more to this than a simple dispute over a tree stand or racist remarks. If one of the hunters fired first that may have pushed him over the edge. It's all speculation until we hear the facts.
We can anticipate this argument in his defence when it comes to court.
The fate of the Hmong in general is a tragedy and probably those hunters are in fact another casualty of the war in Laos.
The guy is 36. That would have made him about seven at the end of the Vietnam War. I am willing to guess that he left Laos not long afterward.
I know they train them young but I don't think this is the reason.
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I've hunted a long time, and most deer hunters I've hunted with say they're hunting soon as they leave the clubhouse and headed to the woods. They always have their rifles with them on the four-wheelers in the rack without exception, even if just out for a ride to scout or such. I carried a .44 bulldog with me in addition to the rifle. (Well at least I did back in my hunting days.) Many hunters carry handguns with them.
One reason is to be prepared for someone on the property like this fellow, who may have bad intentions. A few years ago there was an incident where some hunters were robbed and killed while out hunting. You don't know who is out in the woods these days, and it just doesn't sound right, these hunters not being armed...all of them.
Deer hunters take hunting seriously. It's serious business about others poaching, though there are right and wrong ways to go about dealing with poaching. Now I'm not saying this is what happened, and it's just my 0.02 worth, but I think the bad guy in this case was approached in a way that scared him. He might have thought he was about to be shot.
Will be devil's advocate here. Not trying to justify his actions in any way, but as a possible scenario, if the guy was scared and nervous, he would be capable of anything, as probably anyone here could be under certain circumstances. Most hunters I know, would have been on the ready to shoot a poacher if the poacher made a move with his weapon. At least that is the standard operating procedure discussed amongst my friends and me where I have deer hunted. Of course it's talk, and no one knows what they'll do until they do it. I wouldn't want to get shot if I was the hunter and found someone in my stand. I wouldn't want my friend(s) to get shot. I wouldn't want to get caught poaching if I was the poacher.
The smart thing to do would have been not approach the man at all, return to the clubhouse and figure out how to handle it. And that may not mean going back there and running him off, but think first before acting.
Unfortunately, there is no easy way.
I suspect this poaching was a year round thing for some of the neighbors, and they didn't care if there was a club there or not. It's possible the poachers did need the food. Then there's the cultural factor, which makes this situation a different breed of cat altogether the way I see it.
You just never know. All this will come out during the trial. Did the article or someone say game wardens had given up on arresting them? Hope I'm wrong but almost sounds like it could be a hunting ground war zone, or one in the making.
Les
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bet hunters around there carry handguns now tho. I allways carried one too. I carried a 22 auto for coupe de gras shots if nothing else.
lazs
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Howdy Lazs,
it's "coup de grace" actually,
a coup de gras would be a "blow of the fat". ;)
kbman
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Almost kbman but as he wrote "coupe" and not "coup" it would be a "slice of fat" :p
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Lazs, the game wardens around these parts carry M-16 full auto rifles, the job is so dangerous.
Les
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lol I was just kidding. Its obvious this guy went nuts. Some people go nuts unprovoked and some people go nuts when provoked. Now thats more realistic I think.
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well.... .22's work good on that slice of fat thing in any case.
not bad on berserk laotians either I would think. Buddy of mine is a forest service guy and they issued him a mini 14.
lazs
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Poachers demonstrate contempt for landowners and legal hunters just by the act of poaching. As a land owner it's not so much the fact that they are taking game that they are not entitled too that annoys me,( if they ask me I might let them hunt)
it's that there is some armed bastard that I don't know from adam wandering around my property without my knowledge.
I would think most poachers would be aware how property owners feel about poaching, but it doesn't stop them. So to my way of thinking that puts poachers potentialy a few rungs lower on the sanity ladder. But your not going to find that out until you confront them. When I did, the guy was barely on the ladder, he was truly a sandwich short of a picnic. There was no fear, guilt or an apology and he didn't leave quietly. There was however, justification, beligerance and ranting verbal abuse from him despite me being armed with an ar15 and getting more pissed by the minute. If I was in his shoes you wouldn't have seen me for dust, I would have been out of there... but I'm almost sane. He eventually walked, he had too, I didn't give him a choice. For me it was a lesson learned, but those hunters killed in Wisconsin may have been more trusting.
Excel
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exel... I believe you are right. I am allways more cautious around potentialy dangerous situations. I know I would have felt very uncomfortable in the woods there and had my handgun out or easy to draw. just like when people aren't armed and things get angry it is allways best to keep arms length.
lazs
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actually, Vang's confession sounds fairly believable (and the female, Jessica, was not the male, Lauren, hiding behind the ATV. He also returned fire, so two of the initial group had access to firearms -- whether the same gun or not, I don't know); guy not looking too closely, or caring too much, about private property goes hunting, gets caught. Confrontation ensues; owners are understandably pissed and belligerent. Someone makes the tactical mistake of throwing in some racial insults
---let me stop here a second. Racism isn't a justification in this case; far from it. But if you're threatening to shoot a poacher,make sure he knows you'll shoot him for being a poacher, and not for some reason entirely unrelated. If Vang were a drunk hillbilly with an AR-15, would you yell insults about his recent marriage with his sister-mother? Now here you're dealing with a member of a group that's been told both here and in SE Asia that they were less than human, and their response over there has been to fight back mercilessly. --
okay, so then something happens -- I don't know, a twitch, a warning shot, something -- and the guy starts killing.
These are based on speculation, but here are some lessons I draw from the story:
A) If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
B) Don't piss off the guy with the gun, especially if you have one too. I don't care what you've been drinking.
C) If shoot at someone, make sure you hit. Vang's story may not be credible, but he claims the first shot was fired by the rightful owners, the range 100 feet, and the round fell 30-40 feet short. As a "reaction shot", that's poor; as a first shot, that's unacceptable.
D) If you receive a call for help RT, the gist of which is "a nut with a gun has just shot all of us", do not hop on your ATV and drive right up to said nut. If you do drive past him, do not stop -- keep going until you hit cover.
E) if you're bridging the morning hunt and the evening Packers game by drinking, let someone sober deal with the poachers.
F) Before a belligerent confrontation, make sure you have the firepower advantage. Five guys with one or two breach-loading rifles have a significant disadvantage against one guy with a 20-round 7.62x39 clip.
G) If the defendant's confession, in which he admits at the very least least to multiple counts of second-degree murder,contains a reference to his adversaries using racial epithets, the media will seize on this; conservatives will jump up and down insisting that this is an attempt to make murder "PC". Give me a break guys.
H) Next season, the SKS is going to be very popular indeed.
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I don't know how many were armed but they should have been and they should have been ready. I doubt that much verbal abuse occured unless the guy was beligerent himself.
The SKS will never be very much more popular than it is right .... it is a crap gun and everyone knows it.
lazs