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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MadSquirrel on November 27, 2004, 01:25:55 AM

Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: MadSquirrel on November 27, 2004, 01:25:55 AM
About 6 to 8 months ago, I read a thread that talked about how aircraft killing tanks had been way wrong.  I would really like to see that thread again and can't find it.  If it was a quote then I would like to find where it was from.  I have searched and been unable to find it.  I hope one of you can help me.

I discussed how straffing might have blown the external fuel tanks on some German tanks, but done little more.  It went on to talk about how bomb blasts might have flipped the tank and might have killed the crew.  It talked about how pilots might have seen the fireball of an exploding fuel cell and thought it was a dead tank and reported it as such, but in fact very few tanks were killed by straffing or bombing aircraft.  Way fewer than had been reported.

Thanks in advance.

LTARsqrl  
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: JB73 on November 27, 2004, 03:11:02 AM
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/search.php?s=
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: MadSquirrel on November 27, 2004, 03:33:40 AM
As stated in my original text, I have done a search for this and been unable to find it.
Title: Re: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: DREDIOCK on November 27, 2004, 09:25:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
About 6 to 8 months ago, I read a thread that talked about how aircraft killing tanks had been way wrong.  I would really like to see that thread again and can't find it.  If it was a quote then I would like to find where it was from.  I have searched and been unable to find it.  I hope one of you can help me.

I discussed how straffing might have blown the external fuel tanks on some German tanks, but done little more.  It went on to talk about how bomb blasts might have flipped the tank and might have killed the crew.  It talked about how pilots might have seen the fireball of an exploding fuel cell and thought it was a dead tank and reported it as such, but in fact very few tanks were killed by straffing or bombing aircraft.  Way fewer than had been reported.

Thanks in advance.

LTARsqrl  


I remember that thread. it was in the Gamplay feedback forum.

I think the general concensus was not so much the bombing but the straffing.
I know I've said several times that the majority of Tanks that were killed by aircraft were due to them being bombed. Not strafed.
And that while they may have taken some damage due to staffing, Straffing alone more often then not didnt "kill" them.

How its modeled now seems to be pretty right on. IMO
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: DREDIOCK on November 27, 2004, 09:35:46 AM
BTW I think this is the thread you were looking for

]when is the Gv damage model getting fixed (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123524&highlight=Drediock)
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: bj229r on November 27, 2004, 09:56:54 AM
Saw a Discovery Wings thin about IL2, they kilt MANY tanks by strafin in packs (of course they didnt do it with .50's like in here)
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: MadSquirrel on November 29, 2004, 06:35:54 PM
The thread that I read came out way before AH2 was released.

I have used the search engine to look for the article with no luck.  

I don't remember exactly what the main topic was about, but the article was very specific as to the fact that Bombing and Straffing of tanks was commonly reported as kills, when in fact most were not kills.  With all the GV folks out there, I figured someone would have remembered this article as it was very good.

I am still hoping someone remembers it and can direct me to it.

Thanks again.

LTARsqrl  
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: hyena426 on November 29, 2004, 06:41:46 PM
i remmeber reading a book were it talked about straifing tanks,,and it was saying that p47 pilots didnt have the gun power to kill a tank,,so what they would do is shoot infront of the tank,,and the mount of lead and bullets going under the tank would raize the dirt so fast,,it would flip the tank over,,im not sure how true this story is,,but thats what i read once,,lol
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: Kweassa on November 29, 2004, 08:47:27 PM
In order to flip a tank by digging dirt you'd need to grind off truckloads of them near a tank.

 That's like trying to dig a swimming pool in your back yard with shotguns. I seriously doubt a single P-47 would ever have so much ammo, or opportunity, to strafe a tnak in that manner.
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: GRUNHERZ on November 29, 2004, 08:53:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hyena426
i remmeber reading a book were it talked about straifing tanks,,and it was saying that p47 pilots didnt have the gun power to kill a tank,,so what they would do is shoot infront of the tank,,and the mount of lead and bullets going under the tank would raize the dirt so fast,,it would flip the tank over,,im not sure how true this story is,,but thats what i read once,,lol


A new twist on the shooting at the road to kill the tank fantasy!


:D
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: Masherbrum on November 29, 2004, 11:42:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hyena426
i remmeber reading a book were it talked about straifing tanks,,and it was saying that p47 pilots didnt have the gun power to kill a tank,,so what they would do is shoot infront of the tank,,and the mount of lead and bullets going under the tank would raize the dirt so fast,,it would flip the tank over,,im not sure how true this story is,,but thats what i read once,,lol


Were you sober when reading this?  This might be the most insane post I have ever seen.

Karaya
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: vorticon on November 29, 2004, 11:48:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Were you sober when reading this?  This might be the most insane post I have ever seen.

Karaya


dont read the o'club much, do you?
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: hyena426 on November 30, 2004, 12:02:59 AM
Besides their bomb and rocket payloads, the P-47 and the Typhoon both boasted powerful gun armaments. The Typhoon had four 20mm Hispano cannon. The P-47 carried eight .50 cal. machine guns with 400 rounds per gun, and it proved "particularly successful" against transports. The machine guns occasionally even caused casualties to tanks and tank crews. The .50 cal. armor-piercing bullets often penetrated the underside of vehicles after ricocheting off the road, or penetrated the exhaust system of the tanks, ricocheting around the interior of the armored hull, killing or wounding the crew and sometimes igniting the fuel supply or detonating ammunition storage. This seemed surprising at first, given the typically heavy armor of German tanks. Yet Maj. Gen. J. Lawton "Lightning Joe" Collins, Commander of First Army's VII Corps, was impressed enough to mention to Quesada the success that P-47s had strafing tanks with .50 cal. machine gun fire.


thats about all i can find about it at the moment about tanks being killed to by 50cal gun fire,,like i said about the mound of dirt thing,i have no idea if it was true or not,,but i read about it,,lol
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: Masherbrum on November 30, 2004, 12:31:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
dont read the o'club much, do you?


Did a Search for entire BBS, and NADA.

My statement still stands.

Karaya
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: vorticon on November 30, 2004, 12:43:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Did a Search for entire BBS, and NADA.

My statement still stands.

Karaya


it pains me to have to do this, as it is myself i am ridiculing...

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50012&highlight=american+planes+over+europe

3rd post down...


I WIN
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: save on November 30, 2004, 02:21:14 AM
you dont kill mbt tanks (ie 1943-45)  with 20mm or .50s

period.

you can deny them their fuel and support and maintainance , but you dont kill tanks with them.

The only worthy contender in the tankbusting business is the ju87g
with its 30mm gun and tungsten core.


Typhoon rockets may have killed a few tanks but they where extremely  hard to hit with.
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: bozon on November 30, 2004, 03:32:18 AM
I find it very hard to belive hispanos or 0.5s "killing" tanks.

They might cause considrable amount of external damage to the tank (supplies attached, machine guns, periscopes, radiator, maybe loosing a track) but notting beyond repair or kill anyone inside. That is unless someone is stupid enough to man the turret machinegun while being strifed, like in the game...

Bozon
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: BUG_EAF322 on November 30, 2004, 04:26:26 AM
Quote
someone is stupid enough to man the turret machinegun while being strifed, like in the game...


oh well what about the ostie it's like a closed turret
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: ra on November 30, 2004, 07:20:42 AM
Most ground vehicles were not main battle tanks.  They were mobile artillery, armored cars, half tracks, trucks, and lighter tank destroyers.  So when fighter bomber pilots reported destroying "tanks" they were probably destroying everything but main battle tanks.  No way strafing is going to destroy a large tank.

Somewhere on the web I saw documents where the British tested strafing tanks with 20mm in 1940, when they were worried about a German invasion and thought they may be able to use their 20mm armed fighters as tank busters.  They concluded that even a medium tank was more or less immune to 20mm rounds.  They decided that cluster bombs where best, or 250-500 lb bombs.  1000 lbrs weren't much better than 500lbrs.

ra
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: Slash27 on November 30, 2004, 07:54:43 AM
Quote
The only worthy contender in the tankbusting business is the ju87g




Why would you leave out the ILs and the Hurri IID?
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: Masherbrum on November 30, 2004, 08:11:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
it pains me to have to do this, as it is myself i am ridiculing...

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50012&highlight=american+planes+over+europe

3rd post down...


I WIN


Win what?  

I have still YET to see a Legitimate SOURCE of an ACTUAL WWII account proving this BS of "FLIPPING A GERMAN TANK WITH 50 CAL".   Your banter doesn't explain anything in your post.  Sorry.

Karaya
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: hyena426 on November 30, 2004, 01:47:43 PM
mashburn you and vort are talking about somthing else i think,,,lol,and about the flipping of a tank,,like i said above
Quote
im not sure how true this story is,,but thats what i read once,,lol
i did read it,,but what you read doesnt mean its true,,just figured some one else mite have some light to shed on this story,,lol like i was saying,,i didnt really beleved it my self,,,lol
Title: Armor vs. Aircraft
Post by: midnight Target on November 30, 2004, 04:16:26 PM
Well I guess no one watched Saving Private Ryan and the stellar performance of the "P-51 Tankbusters".

For shame!