Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: VWE on November 27, 2004, 03:43:07 PM
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france (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139709,00.html)... where else?
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:eek:
It takes his killers two minutes and five seconds to saw off his head. In the small, dark living room where it's being watched, no one even flinches.
This is a recruitment video screened by a French convert to Islam (search) who is looking to bring holy warriors into the fold.
It's a scene increasingly common across Europe — young Muslims being tapped to fight U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, a secretive process that can take months.
"It's definitely conditioning people slowly, over a long period of time for war, for holy war (search)," said political scientist Asiem El Difraoui.
In France, with more Muslims (search) than any other European nation — nearly 6 million — that recruitment often starts in the mosque and the ethnic ghettos that ring the capital.
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"Where do muslim extremists get new blood?"
We create Moslem extremists- every time photos of prisoner abuse are released, every time a wounded Moslem is shot, every time we drop a bomb- we are creating more extremists whose only goal in life is to kill us.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"Where do muslim extremists get new blood?"
We create Moslem extremists- every time photos of prisoner abuse are released, every time a wounded Moslem is shot, every time we drop a bomb- we are creating more extremists whose only goal in life is to kill us.
You know, I agree, every time we fight back we just create more radicals. Therfore we should do nothing and preferably withdraw from the world. That way everything will be fine and the muslims will hopefully start killing the french again.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You know, I agree, every time we fight back we just create more radicals.
Yes we do, Grun- but remember, through indocrination and religious zeal they hated us to begin with,only now they have targets of opportunity upon which they can demonstrate their hatred of us.
In fact this is exactly why I've opposed the Iraqi war- all we're doing is putting targets on our kids chests, and every Moslem who hates us is hitchhiking, taking a bus or riding a camel to get to Iraq so they can shoot at us.
Do you honestly believe force is the way to win hearts and minds? Do you believe there's a snowball's chance in Hell that we can establish a democracy in Iraq?
I don't, but Bush has 4 years to prove me wrong- I'm betting it's another Viet Nam, we'll spend a few thousand lives of our best and our brightest, and eventually we'll be driven out.
Hope I'm wrong tho, but I've seen all this before.
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My point is that we cant just do nothing, even if no single course of action can produce ideal outcomes.
If we withdraw, then they will say they won and that they scared us off.
If we fight back, then we are evil crusaders.
If we are nice to muslims and try to be good peace brokers then the terrosrists use that time, the 1990s to be specific, to plan the worst attack against us...
I hate to quote Bush because he is such a terrible speaker but I think I understand why he repeated "Its hard work" so often in the debates, it really is, there is no easy eloquent solution.
BTW I wanna clarify, I dont actually want french people to be harmed, execpt SAW.... ;)
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We can fight them here or over there. I'm an over there kind of guy. We were not fighting them before 9/11 in any major way and they murdered over 3000 people in an unprovoked attack. As long as they are actively fighting over there I like it better than if they decide to come back over here.
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Originally posted by Maverick
We can fight them here or over there. I'm an over there kind of guy.
That kind of thinking got us involved in Viet Nam.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"Where do muslim extremists get new blood?"
We create Moslem extremists- every time photos of prisoner abuse are released, every time a wounded Moslem is shot, every time we drop a bomb- we are creating more extremists whose only goal in life is to kill us.
The problem is that everytime one of them blows himself up, taking one of our people with him, there are extremists created over here, among our citizens, among our military, among parents of the potential soldiers of the future... No, we may not shout 'Allah akbar!' but we do see them as less and less human--and this is the at the core of any extremist rift.
The fact that we can kill them far more efficiently, while, simultaneously exercising so much more compassion for the lives of our own puts us into a kind of disadvantage in fighting a guerilla war--where every one of our deaths, in their eyes, more than justifies every one of their sacrifices.
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Originally posted by Airhead
That kind of thinking got us involved in Viet Nam.
No what got us involved in Viet Nam was trying to shore up the French as they were losing their colony. Later it was justified by Eisenhower as stopping the domino theory. The final aspect was the abortion lbj foisted on us.
A more critical difference is that the VC did not come to this country and murder over 3000 people.
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Neither did Saddam Hussein. But retribution for 911 was not a reason behind the Iraq war...
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Originally posted by Neubob
The problem is that everytime one of them blows himself up, taking one of our people with him, there are extremists created over here, among our citizens, among our military, among parents of the potential soldiers of the future... No, we may not shout 'Allah akbar!' but we do see them as less and less human--and this is the at the core of any extremist rift.
The fact that we can kill them far more efficiently, while, simultaneously exercising so much more compassion for the lives of our own puts us into a kind of disadvantage in fighting a guerilla war--where every one of our deaths, in their eyes, more than justifies every one of their sacrifices.
I was looking at your avatar and couldn't help but wonder if you aren't the Bob from the Levitra commercial? The guy with the perpetuial woody? No biggie, cause Viagra is my recrational drug of choice, b ut I think it's kewl you have named yourself after your libido.
Rock on. :aok
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Originally posted by Maverick
A more critical difference is that the VC did not come to this country and murder over 3000 people.
Neither did the Iraquis.
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Originally posted by Airhead
I was looking at your avatar and couldn't help but wonder if you aren't the Bob from the Levitra commercial? The guy with the perpetuial woody? No biggie, cause Viagra is my recrational drug of choice, b ut I think it's kewl you have named yourself after your libido.
Rock on. :aok
Actually, I named myself after a character in a novel I was working on earlier this year--something I'm trying to get published at the moment. You're pretty close to the truth though, he was a walking libido.
Nash made me the avatar, so I am in debt to him.
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Its a very good question.
Where do they get their new blood ?
Lets have a look at Pakistan - as one example:
Officially Pakistan is an ally of the anti-terror-front against Al Kaida and the Taliban.
For those who know that it was the same Pakistan under the same president of today which was the main supporter of the Taliban regime during the afghan civil war, this official statement always was an irony.
Especially in the pashtuni territory at the afghan borders there is still today much support for the Al Kaida, Bin Laden and the Taliban system.
Because these people all are idiots ?
No - its more complicated.
These region is poor - the people cant afford money to get medical care or even to send more than one of their many children to school.
And this is where the terrorist organisations step in. So called "welfare organisations", sponsored by money from rich islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, build hospitals and schools and offer these poor people to go there.
They dont have to pay money for medical treatment or for sending their children to these schools.
But there they are indoctrinated.
Little children learn to hate the USA and Israel, they learn that the highest goal for them is to become a Shaheed - a martyr for the Islam and that Osama bin LAden is a hero.
Day by day they have to learn the version of the Koran of these ultraorthodox fanatics.
And this happens in Pakistan - the ally of the USA in the war against terror.
And there the fighting against terrorism has to start.
The terrorists are clever - they use - or better: they abuse - the social problems combined with the money they get from supporter countries.
So - as long as countries like Saudi Arabia are allowed to pay these terror-education centres - there will be an endless flow of new recruits of suicide fighters and terrorists.
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Originally posted by Maverick
No what got us involved in Viet Nam was trying to shore up the French as they were losing their colony.
Damm I'm learning each day in this BBS.
This sentence is completly false ,there is about a 10 year difference between last French and 1st US intervention.
But I guess you prefer a version where you were dragued in the vietnam conflict by the evil French...
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Originally posted by straffo
Damm I'm learning each day in this BBS.
This sentence is completly false ,there is about a 10 year difference between last French and 1st US intervention.
But I guess you prefer a version where you were dragued in the vietnam conflict by the evil French...
no, no, no, they will claim they saved you and the world in vietnam, you owe them lots of money and you should worship daily at your america shrine to show your gratitude.
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Babek nailed it.
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Yep Babek nailed it ...
BUT he failled to follow the initial intent of this thread,
he posted facts (that can be checked) and a credible analysis
WHERE IS THE FRENCH BASHING Babek ?
It's all in the spirit ! :p
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Originally posted by straffo
WHERE IS THE FRENCH BASHING Babek ?
It's all in the spirit ! :p
Hey - I am an Iranian living in Germany and so I have only highest respect for the french culture and history, but maybe I have just been succesfully indoctrinated by Old Europe ;)
The last thing I would do is French Bashing or inventing funny new words like "Freedom Fries" or "Freedom Kiss" :D
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So if they're recruiting in France....what the heck are the French doing about it?
Honestly, the best way to realize fighting is pointless in this world is to think about your children.
Do you want them to grow up and be something in their life, or die because you're arguing because Craig didn't return the mower he promised or try to convert people to Christianity (I hate spelling that, I prefer Catholism)
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Originally posted by straffo
Yep Babek nailed it ...
BUT he failled to follow the initial intent of this thread,
he posted facts (that can be checked) and a credible analysis
WHERE IS THE FRENCH BASHING Babek ?
It's all in the spirit ! :p
It's bad enough we saved your arses in WW1, and WW2 straffo, and you beat us in the rugby last week - now this! :mad: :mad:
Saudi money...pakistani schools (and include ultra islamic "schools" across the world)...
...but what the hell are the French doin about it!!!!!!! :mad:
:p :D
Tronsky
ps. Babek- nailed it
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Originally posted by RTSigma
or try to convert people to Christianity (I hate spelling that, I prefer Catholism)
You don't consider Roman Catholics to be Christians?
:)
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Straffo,
There was no french bashing intended. If YOU look at the history you will find we started to send military aid to the french before dien bien phu. That was the start of our involvement in the region. Sorry to bust your bubble, feel free to feel sorry for yourself and country all you want.
As far as our combat involvement was concerned that was almost exclusively lbj's doing.
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quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
No what got us involved in Viet Nam was trying to shore up the French as they were losing their colony.
Damm I'm learning each day in this BBS.
This sentence is completly false ,there is about a 10 year difference between last French and 1st US intervention.
But I guess you prefer a version where you were dragued in the vietnam conflict by the evil French...
Ya could be right but maybe you should check the facts before putting typing fingers on the keyboard. ;)
or possibly history has it wrong and you have a version you would care to enlighten us with???
1950
Chinese, Soviets Offer Weapons to Vietminh
US Pledges $15M to Aid French: The United States sends $15 million dollars in military aid to the French for the war in Indochina. Included in the aid package is a military mission and military advisors.
1955
Diem Rejects Conditions of Geneva Accords, Refuses to Participate in Nationwide Elections
China and Soviet Union Pledge Additional Financial Support to Hanoi
Diem Urged to Negotiate with North: Britain, France, and United States covertly urge Diem to respect Geneva accords and conduct discussions with the North.
Diem Becomes President of Republic of Vietnam: Diem defeats Bao Dai in rigged election and proclaims himself President of Republic of Vietnam.
1956
French Leave Vietnam
US Training South Vietnamese: The US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumes responsibility, from French, for training South Vietnamese forces.
Appears the evil U.S. empire was in somewhat less than ten years after the French left.
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The only mistake we made in Vietnam was supporting Franch colonial imperilasim there after WW2. During the war US operatives got very close with Ho Chi Minh, in fact his US OSS (later to be CIA) advisers were on stage with him on film of a big speech the end of WW2. Some of his movement was inspired by US ideas even... Unfortunately we had to drop him and support our French "allies."
We gave France planes, tanks, rifles pretty much everthing so they could crush the vietnamese people in the 1950s.
And what did we get for all the suppot of the frence? We got a degaulle France that told us to screw off..
There is that great saying:
France, they are always there when they need you....
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Mmm France :)
A great country with great people.
Just ignore him my french friends
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"You know, I agree, every time we fight back we just create more radicals. Therfore we should do nothing and preferably withdraw from the world. That way everything will be fine and the muslims will hopefully start killing the french again."
thats so wrong and yet makes so much sense... :) ;)
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War is inevitable. War is already here.
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Maverick & MrBill
When was US involvement comparable to the French one ?
It don't start in 1956,when did the Tokin gulf incident took place ?
It will be about 1964 no ? not 1956...
GRUN it was a very stupid post ,you even managed to put de Gaulle in this nice try :)
-tronski- I give you a 10/10 ;)
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Originally posted by Airhead
Neither did the Iraquis.
We had some pretty legitimate excuses to go into Iraq and create a democracy. This is just the beginning.
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Originally posted by AKIron
We had some pretty legitimate excuses to go into Iraq and create a democracy. This is just the beginning.
Even IF it were possible to establish a democracy in Iraq- and that's a mighty big if- it's not our responsibility to do so, nor is that whole region worth the blood of even one American boy.
"This is just the beginning." I'm afraid you're right about this- we're seeing the beginning of another long war that can't be won.
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If we aren't proactive in this I'm afraid there will be a much larger price to pay later.
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If we aren't proactive in this I'm afraid there will be a much larger price to pay later.
Isn't that the reasoning the soviets used for invading Afghanistan?
My uncle was practically a communist, and he justified the invasion of Afghanistan at the end of the 70s in the same terms. The muslims were causing trouble in the soviet republics, and the Russians had to fight them on their home ground in Afghanistan.
Look how that turned out.
Too many people seem to look at it as a zero sum game. Kill X terrorists and we've won.
The problem is, the terrorists come from a pool of a billion muslims, and the more we kill, the more they recruit.
Israel has been following the same strategy for 50 years, and that fact alone should tell you something about how effective it is.
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Originally posted by straffo
-tronski- I give you a 10/10 ;)
Thanks mate :D
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Isn't that the reasoning the soviets used for invading Afghanistan?
Dunno about that but I do know it was the strategy we used against the Soviet Union and look how that turned out.
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sooo... babek nailed it? So if the U.S. just built a few hospitals and passed out some food once in a while then everyone wouod love us? don't know why we didn't think of that... seems so.... easy.
lazs
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If you really want to root off terrorism from the world then you have to go deeper; what you're doing now in US is you're treating the results, not the cause.
I just hope some day that one dumb fck understands that and looks farther than 4 years to the future.
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Originally posted by lazs2
sooo... babek nailed it? So if the U.S. just built a few hospitals and passed out some food once in a while then everyone wouod love us? don't know why we didn't think of that... seems so.... easy.
lazs
No, no...you're forgetting about the part where we would need to blame somebody else for all their problems, and get them all riled up against the "common enemy".
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Originally posted by rshubert
No, no...you're forgetting about the part where we would need to blame somebody else for all their problems, and get them all riled up against the "common enemy".
that sounds more like.
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ok... so we pass out the goodies and blame all the bad stuff on the squareheads in finland?
lazs
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A bumper sticker on a mini van this past weekend Imagine no Liberals mmmmm, nice thought... that would be utopia.
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Originally posted by AKIron
We had some pretty legitimate excuses
Heheh. for honesty.
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Originally posted by VWE
france (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139709,00.html)... where else?
Well according to the article, Britain as well, or is your attention span too short for you to get that far down the page? :rolleyes:
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(http://images.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/09-12-03-motivational/mav.rc_potential.jpg)
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Originally posted by Airhead
That kind of thinking got us involved in Viet Nam.
No. what got us into Nam was bailing out the friggen French..again
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
No. what got us into Nam was bailing out the friggen French..again
You make it sound like the French are our belligerent friends who start barfights and use the buddy card to get you to stick up for them. I doubt it's that simple. I doubt we gave a Rat's Arse about France's reputation, or welfare, when we escelated Viet Nam. I imagine we were thinking about our own intrests.
While we have many reasons to hate the French- overpriced wines, clothes that don't fit American women, wet kisses from the only French guy I know- we cannot blame Viet Nam on the French. That was our fiasco.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"...clothes that don't fit American women..."
lol
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Uh...that wasn't the funny part of the post, Nash.
"wet kisses from the only French guy I know" was supposed to be the funny part of the post, and it's true- my buddy Jon Marie, married to a typically spoiled American woman, likes giving me wet kisses on the lips- so wet, in fact, that my wife refuses to kiss me until I brush my teeth and gargle with Listerine afterwards- nut it's no big thing, it's a cultural thingie.
And the only reason he grabs my buttcheeks is to hold himself steady while he kisses me.
It's a cultural thingie. Really. It means nothing.
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^
studmuffin
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You may think that was the funny part, but that was actually the weird part... that I pretended not to even read. No way I was gonna touch that. :D
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Originally posted by VWE
A bumper sticker on a mini van this past weekend Imagine no Liberals mmmmm, nice thought... that would be utopia.
Nazi Germany?
The Taliban?
Dark Age Europe?
Which of these anti-liberal utopias is your favorite?
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Nazi Germany?
The Taliban?
Dark Age Europe?
Which of these anti-liberal utopias is your favorite?
The opposite of liberalism is conservatism, not fascism, feudalism, or tyranny. Unless, of course, you are prepared to state that liberalism is equivalent to socialism...
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Originally posted by straffo
Maverick & MrBill
When was US involvement comparable to the French one ?
It don't start in 1956,when did the Tokin gulf incident took place ?
It will be about 1964 no ? not 1956...
GRUN it was a very stupid post ,you even managed to put de Gaulle in this nice try :)
-tronski- I give you a 10/10 ;)
Straffo,
Please note, in none of my posts did I state the US assistance to the french in viet nam was equal to the fre4nch involvement before 64.
I said the US provided military aid. I did not say we provided ground forces. Mr Bill provided a nice little bit of information that confirmed it in his own post.
Quote:1950
Chinese, Soviets Offer Weapons to Vietminh
US Pledges $15M to Aid French: The United States sends $15 million dollars in military aid to the French for the war in Indochina. Included in the aid package is a military mission and military advisors.
End quote
I also said that that lbj was the main architect for the US main involvement in viet nam. Since he was president after kenedy was assasinated in 63 it would obviously be after the french left. Prior to his death, kennedy did send military advisors into the country but not a large number of them and not for actual front line duties as combat troops. It was lbj that did that.
Nothing in my post was intended to bash france. You inferred what was neither implied or stated.
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Allright Maverick , I readed your post incorrectly so , and implied a lot.
In fact I was more thinking of the presence of US troop on Vietnam soil than the presence of millitary counsellor
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Which of these anti-liberal utopias is your favorite?
You sound like a leftist, not a liberal... you should learn how to define the difference and stop confusing yourself! :aok
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The opposite of liberalism is conservatism, not fascism, feudalism, or tyranny. Unless, of course, you are prepared to state that liberalism is equivalent to socialism...
That bumper sticker wasn't describing diametrically opposing philosophies - it was dealing with the absence of liberalism. The absence of liberalism is a key aspect of the three examples cited (certain periods of dark age Europe in certain locales).
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Dark Age Europe was cute and fund
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Originally posted by VWE
france (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139709,00.html)... where else?
You didn't kept us informed ... I missed part 1 and 2
Fortunatly part 4 is here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139807,00.html)