Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Terror on November 30, 2004, 04:01:54 PM
-
Here is a Gun Facts pamphlet. Gun control advocates, please read all 86 pages and respond. Lets hear some good arguments against the points in this pamphlet. Please hold the flames/trolls/HiJacks to a minimum.
Gun Facts v4.0 PDF (http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.0/GunFacts4-0-Screen.pdf)
Try this link to find out more Gun Fact WebSite (http://www.gunfacts.info/).
Terror
-
86 pages??? :eek:
No thanks, I'll wait for the DVD to come out.
:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by AWMac
86 pages??? :eek:
No thanks, I'll wait for the DVD to come out.
:rolleyes:
OK. Well at least scan through some of it. You will find quite alot of interesting information.
Terror
-
Read 86 pages of lazsisms...no thanks.
-
Originally posted by Curval
Read 86 pages of lazsisms...no thanks.
LMAO, that's what I was thinking.
Cue: ArrrRRRGHhhh, YOU CANT FACE THE FACTSS!!!111one
-
Whilst I've no intention of reading all 86 pages, I did have a quick look at the contents page, and went straight to the section on the UK.
As expected, it's either badly mistaken, or an outright lie. If they can't get their facts straight on that, what's the chance all their other facts are correct?
The bit about Britain:
Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In
America, a gun crime is recorded
as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there.
(This is completely untrue.)
-
Yes, Nashwan. And what's also worth remembering is that in Britain, if a criminal uses a replica gun (our gun control laws having successfully prevented him from getting his hands on the real thing) that is still recorded as a gun crime, even though (as it turns out) the weapon was not a gun at all.
-
Originally posted by beet1e
Yes, Nashwan. And what's also worth remembering is that in Britain, if a criminal uses a replica gun (our gun control laws having successfully prevented him from getting his hands on the real thing) that is still recorded as a gun crime, even though (as it turns out) the weapon was not a gun at all.
So your gun laws have made handguns unattainable in England?
-
I like guns!
-
yes i like guns to. horay for guns.:aok
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
I like guns!
Me too!
Karaya
-
The only way to win an anti-gun vote is to shoot everyone who opposes your side.
-
Heres a Gun Fact for you.
The people who are neutral on this matter do not publish brochures, web sites, or other 'stuff'. So assume anything you read is:
a) biased
b) misquotes everyone
c) uses the statistics that only favour their point of view
d) skews the statistics as much as they can in their favour
e) when stating facts will always forget to mention the stuff that goes against their favour
-
Originally posted by AWMac
86 pages??? :eek:
No thanks, I'll wait for the DVD to come out.
:rolleyes:
For the liberals, the DVD *is* indeed out. Its called "Bowling for Columbine" or "How I duped the left by splicing and dicing, then calling it a documentary"
-
Beet1e? :
Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate
Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of
crime – especially violent crime – has risen.
Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was
up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.
Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime.
In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there. To make matters worse, British law
enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.
Fact: A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation - double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago - and that
criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of 25 possesses or has access to a firearm.
Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership.
References:British Home Office, reported by BBC news, July 12, 2002
Gallant, Hills, Kopel, “Fear in Britain”, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000
U.K. Violent Crime and Firearm Ownership
Source: "Criminal Statistics, England and Wales 2000",
British Home Office
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Beet1e? :
Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate
Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of
crime – especially violent crime – has risen.
Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was
up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.
Biased facts. Whats the numbers per capita. These statistics only use percentages because they look the best. If you use the per capita ratios the US looks absolutel f**ked for guncrimes.
IIRC there was a crime drop in some offences in the later 2000s for Britain, Australia, and NZ. Hence you find these figures specifically identify years like 2001 but exclude figures like 2003. Or select specific crimes like street robberies, when house burglaries might have dropped.
I bet you I could pull those same reports and find stats that work the other way just as easily.
-
Vulcan, the crime stat that jumped out at me when comparing US and GB crime rates is the number of residential burgularies in the UK- it's about three times our rate in the US.
Burgulars are emboldened in the UK because they are confident the most they might be greeted with is a cricket bat; conversely, Lazs owning a gun keeps burgulars "honest", so I have less a chance of my home being burgled, rather I choose to own firearms or not.
-
Same thing in Australia, gun crimes may be slightly down on pre-ban levels, but home invasion and burglary sure isnt.
-
Bluedog, do you feel upset about what happened to your gun rights?
I'm not trying to be smart....just honestly feel bad for you guys and wonder if many of you feel that the gun laws are terrible and useless.
-
Honestly? Yes and No.
Yes because I liked being able to walk into my local firearms dealer and pick up a Mini 14 or SKK or FAL.
No because I have seen enough of the general public to know that 99.999999% of them cannot be trusted with a firearm, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near one if you value the safety of yourself, your loved ones and your property.
Most of the shooting I did was while employed by the Dept of Primary Industries on pest erradication programmes, so a lot of it was shooting at 10, 20,30 animals in a mob, from a hovering hellicopter, in that situation, a semi auto was a big plus, but I agree that for hunting purposes, if you need thirty rounds, you shouldn't be carrying a weapon.
I have a Lee Enfield jungle carbine in my gun cabinet, along with a double barrel 12 guage and an old .410, any of which are more than enough to scare the ****e out of your average home invader/burglar, and if it doesnt scare them, they are capable home defence weapons, if not ideal.
The thing is, all guns arent banned, just semi auto ones and pump action shotties, and private ownership of handguns is pretty much a matter of leave them at the club these days, but we are allowed to have guns.
So to answer your Q, yes, it makes it that I cannot legally own the firearms I most enjoy using, and no because even most of my mates, I wouldn't trust with a gun, so knowing Johnny Public is less likely to get his hands on a gun when he wants to go postal is actually quite a relief.
-
Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime.
In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there.
It's completely incorrect.
For a start, if a crime is only recorded when there's a conviction, then the clear up rate (the percentage of crimes solved) would be 100%. It's actualy around 25%.
For murder, in 2002/2003, by the time the figures were published, 257 muder cases had resulted in a conviction. Try to find a source quoting 257 murders in England and Wales in 2003. You won't.
The only substantial difference in the way murders are recorded in the UK and US is that the US doesn't include manslaughter due to negligence, the figures for England and Wales do.
-
Vulcan, the crime stat that jumped out at me when comparing US and GB crime rates is the number of residential burgularies in the UK- it's about three times our rate in the US.
Burgulars are emboldened in the UK because they are confident the most they might be greeted with is a cricket bat; conversely, Lazs owning a gun keeps burgulars "honest", so I have less a chance of my home being burgled, rather I choose to own firearms or not.
There is some distortion in the figures, because the US counts many burglaries where the home owner is present as robberies, not burglaries.
-
There's a thread on this very topic here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=autogun&msg=1517.1
Some key data published in it is this:
"Info from a Government consultation document on firearms law. The source was the Small Arms Survey Yearbook 2003:
Firearms homicide rate per 100,000 population: Europe in 2000
Lithuania 2.25
Slovakia 2.17
Estonia 1.53
Latvia 1.26
Portugal 0.84
Switzerland 0.56
Germany 0.47
Denmark 0.26
Sweden 0.20
UK 0.12
Elsewhere
Canada 0.54
New Zealand 0.47
Australia 0.31
Japan 0.03
Hong Kong 0.01
For 2000, the US Bureau of Justice reported a rate of 3.6 firearms homicides per 100,000 population in the USA; or exactly thirty times the British rate."
Now while there may be some differences in definition, thirty times is one hell of a difference to make up.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
-
Originally posted by Airhead
Burgulars are emboldened in the UK because they are confident the most they might be greeted with is a cricket bat; conversely, Lazs owning a gun keeps burgulars "honest", so I have less a chance of my home being burgled, rather I choose to own firearms or not.
That's only part of it. You have to remember that we live under the dictatorship of President Blair, and his govt. thinks it's OK not to jail burglars. The lack of a deterrent amounts to a carte blanche to burglars to go on to commit more crimes, and for more people to enter the burglary profession in the first place. The solution would be for much tougher sentencing, but this would need more prisons to be built. President Blair feels that the money is better spent on an army of Whitehall civil servants, whose numbers now exceed the population of the city where Dowding lives.
Footnote: Despite his guns, Lazs's house has been burgled, and mine never has.
Ripsnort - read my sig text. I didn't say it, but it's my feelings entirely.
-
Originally posted by beet1e
Footnote: Despite his guns, Lazs's house has been burgled, and mine never has.
LOL...
ooops Airhead.:p
-
real men use knifes and broke beer bottles!
sissy gun nuts.
-
well beetle... nice of you to mention that my house was burgled again...
I mentioned it to you during a private conversation about my daughters drug use and subsequent recovery as a way of explaining how serious the thing was. My house was not so much burgled as allowed to be burgled by her while I was away.
There is no measure that you could do in england for your house that would prevent a drug addict relative from stealing from you or allowing others in to do so while yu were gone. I hope that you never have to go through it...
The truth is as airhead says... you have burglars because you make sure that they have a safe environment to thrive in.
I don't want that for here.
and tony... you seem to be saying that the gun control in england is the reason for the low homicide rates when in fact it has not gone down at all from any of the draconian gun control laws that you have impossed. It is a constant or slightly rising figure. as is ours....
guns have nothing to do with it except that they make criminals a little more wary and drive down crime in general.
lazs
-
"My house was not so much burgled as allowed to be burgled by her while I was away."
Sorry lazs...didn't know. I take back my oooops comment.
:(
-
For the liberals, the DVD *is* indeed out. Its called "Bowling for Columbine" or "How I duped the left by splicing and dicing, then calling it a documentary"
Who the hell you calling a "liberal"? :mad:
I'm a hardcore Republican you "Peta loving, Tree hugging, CanaDUHian bound Democrap"
:D
-
no problem curval.. I just don't want it to be missrepresented.
lazs
-
I don't see what a house being burgled has to do with guns. My house was broken into and stuff stolen, no one was home except the dog. He was SOL with the shotgun, and got maced so was found cowering in the corner.
Promoting gun control is funny, because it always has misrepresented facts and out right lies.
-SW
-
Originally posted by lazs2
well beetle... nice of you to mention that my house was burgled again...
I mentioned it to you during a private conversation about my daughters drug use and subsequent recovery as a way of explaining how serious the thing was. My house was not so much burgled as allowed to be burgled by her while I was away.
Sorry Lazs - didn't know you'd told me privately. I thought you'd mentioned it already on the BBS when we were talking about locks. Otherwise I would not have brought it up.
My bad.
-
Putting the actual Gun Control issue aside - you are talking about a group of individuals who want to take away one of our rights granted to us by our constitution - the Right to Bear Arms. Let them take away that right and what's next - freedom of speech, freedom of religion? Union people know that you give up NOTHING in contract negotions. IMO I look at it the same way - It's a constitutional right - it's not for negotiation on the table.
-
2nd Amend ..protects the First Admen
-
no problem beet... not ashamed of my daughter.... hell.... I'm a recovered drunk and drug addict, biggot, biker, criminal myself... just felt that it was not really a matter of "burglary" per se.
lazs
-
" hell.... I'm a recovered drunk and drug addict, biggot, biker, criminal myself... just felt that it was not really a matter of "burglary per se."
lazs"
And your allowed to own firearms legally?
Shhheshh. Most of my buddys at the range including my self never even thought about pulling pillow tags off.
You as a "recovered" chemical abuser should not hold rights to own guns.
:)
-
I have no record that would prohibit me from owning firearms.
lazs
-
Originally posted by beet1e
Sorry Lazs - didn't know you'd told me privately. I thought you'd mentioned it already on the BBS when we were talking about locks. Otherwise I would not have brought it up.
My bad.
your an bellybutton hole... ofcourse its your bad.
You dont care who you hurt so long as the point your trying to make, as foolish or insignificant as it will be, is made.
Once a fool always a fool.
-
Wow.
Them Japanese are doing pretty good. They must all be heavily armed or something.
Cheers,
Scherf
-
streetstang... beet is a good guy.. he knows I'm not a real sensitive guy so it's not as bad as it seems.
sherf... two things about the japs... one, look at their suicide rate and two... would you want your society to be like theirs if you were to save a couple of lives per hundred thou? Not to mention that this is only the firearms homicide rates it by no means is any indication whatsoever that total homicides would go down if all firearms suddenly vanished.
In the U.S. to have a vibrant and free society with a lot of cultural diversity (half of all those firearms homicides are commited by blacks who are less than 17% of the population) in order to have our system...
you either have very high crime or you have firearms with some of the homicides, suicides and accidents then being firearms related. mostly tho... you have fireams preventing several million crimes a year. There is a good chance that there would not only be more crime but that there would be more death without em in OUR society.
I wouldn't have it any other way. Being a japanesse or british citizen holds no appeal to me.
lazs
-
"There is a good chance that there would not only be more crime but that there would be more death without [firearms] in OUR society."
So, there's a societal element to the link between firearms, crime and death?
Scherf
-
Originally posted by Tony Williams
There's a thread on this very topic here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=autogun&msg=1517.1
Some key data published in it is this:
"Info from a Government consultation document on firearms law. The source was the Small Arms Survey Yearbook 2003:
Firearms homicide rate per 100,000 population: Europe in 2000
Lithuania 2.25
Slovakia 2.17
Estonia 1.53
Latvia 1.26
Portugal 0.84
Switzerland 0.56
Germany 0.47
Denmark 0.26
Sweden 0.20
UK 0.12
Elsewhere
Canada 0.54
New Zealand 0.47
Australia 0.31
Japan 0.03
Hong Kong 0.01
For 2000, the US Bureau of Justice reported a rate of 3.6 firearms homicides per 100,000 population in the USA; or exactly thirty times the British rate."
Now while there may be some differences in definition, thirty times is one hell of a difference to make up.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
I'd just like to point out those figures from NZ actually include suicides, iirc which make up 2/3rds of the deaths. So it drops down to about 0.10 for NZ. (I think the same goes for Australia).
-
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I don't see what a house being burgled has to do with guns. My house was broken into and stuff stolen, no one was home except the dog. He was SOL with the shotgun, and got maced so was found cowering in the corner.
Promoting gun control is funny, because it always has misrepresented facts and out right lies.
-SW
Back on Thanksgiving 1980, I picked up my fiancee at a house she shared with a girlfriend and we went to my parents home for dinner. Later, we stopped at her parents home for dessert. They lived two houses away from my fiancee. My soon to be brother-in-law arrived and said that he saw flashlights upstairs in my fiancee's house. Together with my future father-in-law (a retired cop who was then teaching high school science) the three of us went to investigate, future father-in-law armed with his .38 S&W service revolver. Meanwhile, the police were called. Two of us went in the front while one watched the back and the upstairs windows. Just as we unlocked the front door, a cop showed up on foot, having parked in front of the in-law's house.
We encountered 4 teenage boys from the neighborhood. They were terrified at the sight of the cop and guns and 3 of them quickly gave up and came downstairs without any trouble. The 4th teen decided to jump from a window and attempt to escape. He kicked out the screen and leaped out. He injured his ankle when he landed on the concrete patio. He was detained by my fiancee's brother and a second cop who arrived about two minutes after the first one. This kid lived across the street, one house over.
The three who surrendered plead guilty to breaking and entering and were sentenced to community service. Mister numbnuts who jumped, he was given 90 days in a juvenile facility and paid a substantial fine. Largely due to previous problems with the law, being the ringleader and his escape attempt. Their parents had to pay for the repair to the basement window and several broken items of personal property.
Moral of the story: Don't trust those seemingly friendly neighborhood teens.
My regards,
Widewing
-
sherf... that is a kind of broad topic but let's boil it down... yes, there is some coralation between violence and societies... broad examples would be extreme governments like the former soviet union where murder was very rare and crime was punished in extreme ways..
Oppossite would be very free and vibrant societies with a lot of cultural diversity and opportunity. A gold rush in California say caused higher than normal homicide rates in the 1850's
Like I said.... very broad topic you need to narrow it down.
lazs
-
at some point we all depend on guns for our survival... you can either delagate their extreme power and hope that somehow you will find only good, all seeing and instantly reacting people will be carrying them or..
you can take your and your families defense into your own hands by owning your own firearm and assuming that no matter how good or noble or quick.... the good guys might not get there or even remain "good" forever... and that bad guys won't play by the rules and that someday you won't be able to wipe out six badguys with your bare hands and a cricket paddle anymore.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
at some point we all depend on guns for our survival... you can either delagate their extreme power and hope that somehow you will find only good, all seeing and instantly reacting people will be carrying them or..
you can take your and your families defense into your own hands by owning your own firearm and assuming that no matter how good or noble or quick.... the good guys might not get there or even remain "good" forever... and that bad guys won't play by the rules and that someday you won't be able to wipe out six badguys with your bare hands and a cricket paddle anymore.
lazs
Lazs, I refer you to the situation in Zimbabwe, where Tomato is from. There, those 6 bad guys might well be 6 of Robert Mugabe's henchmen, come to seize possession of a white owned farm or ranch. Even though many of the white farmers were armed, it didn't do them any good.
Tomato says hi, by the way, and no - you can't have her. :p
-
hi tomato! I thought we were keeping this toned down so far as eetlebay?
beet... I agree that it would be one hell of a fight. I might even lose. I still think that not being armed is worse... even in that situation. Isolated farms.... outnumbered severly by a population that hates you.... not a good situation but...
take the isralies.... there is a situation where having a gun gives you a fighting chance... not so outnumbered... not so isolated in the incidents.... very effective.
still... in either case.... I will trust to my own defense.. simple as that.
lazs