Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Airhead on December 06, 2004, 08:36:56 PM

Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 06, 2004, 08:36:56 PM
...Why there's been such a massive, and month long celebration, in the O'Club over Nov. 7th's election results.

It's natural to be happy when your guy wins, but most people I know who voted for either side had reservations about the guy they voted for during the campaign...Bush voters questioned the Iraq war, Kerry voters questioned Kerry's flip flopping... Even here Bush supporters had reservations about their guy- So, why the month long celebration? The result wasn't a surprise; Bush was expected to win.

Why the big party? Most Kerry voters I know were "over it" by Nov. 8th; and, for many Dems, Bush's election was a relief because we're off the hook. Now he has Carte Blanche to establish a Democracy in Iraq, topple the N.Korean and Iranian regimes, and destroy those who might commit acts of terror against us- it is up to Bush to deliver, and those pesky Dems are out of the loop.

Is it the unfettering of America's military might as we FINALLY strike against these oppressive Nations  that has caused this mass celebration? I decided that wasn't it because we don't celebrate wars until they're over, and the War on Terror has just begun.

Why the celebration, complete with cartoons of copulating animals? (And Bodhi told ME to grow up :rolleyes: ) Why the jokes?

Well, I think I have the answer. Fanatics, from either side of the political spectrum, see every issue as black vs. white. And the average conservative poster here, the ones starting French-bashing threads or posting nasty gifs, are as fanatically right wing as MG was fanatically left wing.

They believe that, because they would be devistated had Bush lost, that all of the people who voted for Kerry are still hiding under their beds, curled in a fetal position. They imagine lines of Liberals marching into Canada. They imagine much wailing and gnashing of teeth among Liberals. They believe every Kerry voter is in pain, and now they're rubbing salt in the wound.

I got news for you guys- There's no wound to rub salt in. 98% of America accepted the election results and we've moved on- it's only that 2% of you left wing or right wing fanatics who can't let it go.

By all means tho, carry on- it's entertaining and I've laughed at some of the "milk toast" jokes (sorry MrLars), but really, any of you who believe a liberal poster here is "devistated" and "fears for America's future" over this election is indulging in mental mastrubation. I'm sure we'll all be fine.
Title: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: hawker238 on December 06, 2004, 08:42:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
Why the celebration, complete with cartoons of copulating animals? (And Bodhi told ME to grow up :rolleyes: ) Why the jokes?


Yeah, that interspecies stuff was a little freaky.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: NUKE on December 06, 2004, 08:46:18 PM
Airhead, I think it's much more simple. It's just human nature.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: ra on December 06, 2004, 08:49:15 PM
Quote
Why the big party? Most Kerry voters I know were "over it" by Nov. 8th; and, for many Dems, Bush's election was a relief because we're off the hook.

If you had posted this on Nov 8th everybody would have laughed at you.  The Dems were going through psychological turmoil, flooding the Canadian immigration website, talking about secession, and going to their shrinks for p.e.s.t. treatments.  

I don't see much celebration lately, so this post is about 2 weeks too late.

ra
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 06, 2004, 08:50:55 PM
Well I personally got tired of the radical lefty whackjobs in here spinning BS and saying decidedly that Bush would lose.  I know there are "wounds" there and I have ample salt.

I could be a gracious winner but the guys I'm referring to, for the most part, are such salamanders that I don't feel like it.

I could list names... but we all know who they are.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 06, 2004, 08:54:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ra
 The Dems were going through psychological turmoil, flooding the Canadian immigration website, talking about secession, and going to their shrinks for p.e.s.t. treatments.  

I don't see much celebration lately, so this post is about 2 weeks too late.

ra


See? Black and white. Because a Canadian immigration website was "flooded" that means ALL Dems were in turmoil.

Now define "much" celebration lately. Two threads today? Three? That's not "much." ;)
Title: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: Tumor on December 06, 2004, 08:54:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
...Why there's been such a massive, and month long celebration, in the O'Club over Nov. 7th's election results.

It's natural to be happy when your guy wins, but most people I know who voted for either side had reservations about the guy they voted for during the campaign...Bush voters questioned the Iraq war, Kerry voters questioned Kerry's flip flopping... Even here Bush supporters had reservations about their guy- So, why the month long celebration? The result wasn't a surprise; Bush was expected to win.

Why the big party? Most Kerry voters I know were "over it" by Nov. 8th; and, for many Dems, Bush's election was a relief because we're off the hook. Now he has Carte Blanche to establish a Democracy in Iraq, topple the N.Korean and Iranian regimes, and destroy those who might commit acts of terror against us- it is up to Bush to deliver, and those pesky Dems are out of the loop.

Is it the unfettering of America's military might as we FINALLY strike against these oppressive Nations  that has caused this mass celebration? I decided that wasn't it because we don't celebrate wars until they're over, and the War on Terror has just begun.

Why the celebration, complete with cartoons of copulating animals? (And Bodhi told ME to grow up :rolleyes: ) Why the jokes?

Well, I think I have the answer. Fanatics, from either side of the political spectrum, see every issue as black vs. white. And the average conservative poster here, the ones starting French-bashing threads or posting nasty gifs, are as fanatically right wing as MG was fanatically left wing.

They believe that, because they would be devistated had Bush lost, that all of the people who voted for Kerry are still hiding under their beds, curled in a fetal position. They imagine lines of Liberals marching into Canada. They imagine much wailing and gnashing of teeth among Liberals. They believe every Kerry voter is in pain, and now they're rubbing salt in the wound.

I got news for you guys- There's no wound to rub salt in. 98% of America accepted the election results and we've moved on- it's only that 2% of you left wing or right wing fanatics who can't let it go.

By all means tho, carry on- it's entertaining and I've laughed at some of the "milk toast" jokes (sorry MrLars), but really, any of you who believe a liberal poster here is "devistated" and "fears for America's future" over this election is indulging in mental mastrubation. I'm sure we'll all be fine.


Trying to mask your tears is just wasting energy :)
Title: Re: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 06, 2004, 08:58:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
Trying to mask your tears is just wasting energy :)


LOL Tumor, I had to go to a Doc in the Box today to get some drops for pinkeye. I am literally typing through my tears. :D
Title: Re: Re: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: NUKE on December 06, 2004, 08:59:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
LOL Tumor, I had to go to a Doc in the Box today to get some drops for pinkeye. I am literally typing through my tears. :D


The tears of a clown.

:)
Title: Re: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: vorticon on December 06, 2004, 09:00:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
Trying to mask your tears is just wasting energy :)



your right


were tired of your whiney liberals up here, take them back...oh wait to late, they all died in the cold
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: ra on December 06, 2004, 09:02:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
See? Black and white. Because a Canadian immigration website was "flooded" that means ALL Dems were in turmoil.

Now define "much" celebration lately. Two threads today? Three? That's not "much." ;)

No one said ALL dems are in turmoil, but enough were to require a new psychological disorder acronym.  Two or three "celebration" threads is not much.  Unless you are suffering from  p.e.s.t.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Nash on December 06, 2004, 09:15:26 PM
I think you gotta go deeper. My "Bogeyman" post merely took a swipe at it. It's psychological.

What makes a fanatic, and why do they create scenarios that always involve defending themselves. They'll go to extremes, begging to be attacked, so they can feel the rush of defending themselves. It's more than that, even.

They'll turn to the radio, to the TV, to the Internet -  to wherever an attack can be found. They'll create attacks out of thin air where none existed.

Does it have something to do with identifying with underdogs? Does it have its roots in the Civil War? That's way beyond my pay grade... I just have no idea.

Though, I'm definitely not above it. I live for elections. Just absolutely love that watermelon and everything about them. Sigh - my cross to bear. But when the games over, well... we'll get 'em next time. It's not a permanent state.

Gscholz, rpm, etc - realize this. You are not accomplishing very much. You are feeding a monkey. Their monkey. Unless you've succumbed to the same affliction and need your monkeys fed in return. Think about that - do you share their addiction? Is it symbiotic?

Probably... It's by no means limited to Republicans. Not even close. It's on both sides. Just happens to be more Republicans here than Democrats is all.

But it's a problem nonetheless. It's hurtful behaviour. To yourselves. It's negative. On no level does it have any relationship to a better, happier, more fulfilling life. On no level does it make better the country you share.

It's not borne of any tangible imperative... It's in the head, like a defect.

That's my junk science. It'd sure be interesting to hear someone who knows what he's talking about speak on this.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Lizking on December 06, 2004, 09:21:19 PM
Will you pet my Monkey?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Nash on December 06, 2004, 09:21:52 PM
I thought you'd never ask.

You and me.

Bike racks.

3:30
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 06, 2004, 09:23:56 PM
"Does it have something to do with identifying with underdogs?"

Oh no, not at all- identifying with the underdog requires compassion for his plight. Extremists, either left or right wing,  have no compassion and prefer a pack mentality where there's a shared responsibility for their vileness.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Tumor on December 06, 2004, 09:27:21 PM
The internet is an easy place for those who can't handle reality.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 06, 2004, 09:35:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
The internet is an easy place for those who can't handle reality.


Why, but of COURSE, Tumor! After all, how else can you describe someone who's admitted to voting for Kerry? There ARE no varying shades of grey! This is a black and white issue! Anybody who voted for Kerry is incapable of facing reality! They are Tree Huggers!

:lol
Title: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: CAVY on December 06, 2004, 09:36:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
...Why there's been such a massive, and month long celebration, in the O'Club over Nov. 7th's election results.

It's natural to be happy when your guy wins, but most people I know who voted for either side had reservations about the guy they voted for during the campaign...Bush voters questioned the Iraq war, Kerry voters questioned Kerry's flip flopping... Even here Bush supporters had reservations about their guy- So, why the month long celebration? The result wasn't a surprise; Bush was expected to win.

Why the big party? Most Kerry voters I know were "over it" by Nov. 8th; and, for many Dems, Bush's election was a relief because we're off the hook. Now he has Carte Blanche to establish a Democracy in Iraq, topple the N.Korean and Iranian regimes, and destroy those who might commit acts of terror against us- it is up to Bush to deliver, and those pesky Dems are out of the loop.

Is it the unfettering of America's military might as we FINALLY strike against these oppressive Nations  that has caused this mass celebration? I decided that wasn't it because we don't celebrate wars until they're over, and the War on Terror has just begun.

Why the celebration, complete with cartoons of copulating animals? (And Bodhi told ME to grow up :rolleyes: ) Why the jokes?

Well, I think I have the answer. Fanatics, from either side of the political spectrum, see every issue as black vs. white. And the average conservative poster here, the ones starting French-bashing threads or posting nasty gifs, are as fanatically right wing as MG was fanatically left wing.

They believe that, because they would be devistated had Bush lost, that all of the people who voted for Kerry are still hiding under their beds, curled in a fetal position. They imagine lines of Liberals marching into Canada. They imagine much wailing and gnashing of teeth among Liberals. They believe every Kerry voter is in pain, and now they're rubbing salt in the wound.

I got news for you guys- There's no wound to rub salt in. 98% of America accepted the election results and we've moved on- it's only that 2% of you left wing or right wing fanatics who can't let it go.

By all means tho, carry on- it's entertaining and I've laughed at some of the "milk toast" jokes (sorry MrLars), but really, any of you who believe a liberal poster here is "devistated" and "fears for America's future" over this election is indulging in mental mastrubation. I'm sure we'll all be fine.


As I read you diatribe above...I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, However...I'm not buying it....You liberals are all alike...the first thing you want us to do nowadays is to move on..unfortunately it was the conservatives who coined the phrase..because we've been telling you it since election 2000..You guys are just sore losers because you had The Michael Moore's, Sean Penns, Peter jennings, Ted Koppell, Ben Aflleck and his ahole buddy, Cher, The Dixie Chicks, Linda Rondstatt (Feel Free to add names) and just about everybody in Hollywood and every newspaper and television network in the country on your side and you still lost...and ya no why???Your message stinks.. and like Ronald Reagan said..."When it comes down to it...You just have to trust the american people...They know what to do" And they did it.
So..in closing I'm going to gloat and gloat and gloat, and every opportunity I get to speak about it..Im gonna do it...:aok
Title: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: Holden McGroin on December 06, 2004, 09:42:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
...Why there's been such a massive, and month long celebration, in the O'Club over Nov. 7th's election results.
 


It only took better than a year to build to the election.  The month afterwards is understandable, it's like delaying taking down the Christmas tree until well after New Years.
Title: Re: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 06, 2004, 09:44:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by CAVY
As I read you diatribe above...I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, However...I'm not buying it....You liberals are all alike...I'm going to gloat and gloat and gloat, and every opportunity I get to speak about it..Im gonna do it...:aok



:aok :rofl :aok
Title: Re: Re: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: CAVY on December 06, 2004, 09:46:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
:aok :rofl :aok



I look forward to the battles Air...:D :aok
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Lizking on December 06, 2004, 09:47:27 PM
Airhead doesn't battle, he prattles.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: CAVY on December 06, 2004, 09:48:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
Airhead doesn't battle, he prattles.


:lol :aok
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Tumor on December 06, 2004, 09:49:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
Why, but of COURSE, Tumor! After all, how else can you describe someone who's admitted to voting for Kerry? There ARE no varying shades of grey! This is a black and white issue! Anybody who voted for Kerry is incapable of facing reality! They are Tree Huggers!

:lol


So you assume I was limiting my statement to libbies?  It's easy to make your own reality on the Internet too :)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Nash on December 06, 2004, 09:54:27 PM
Ugh....
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: rpm on December 06, 2004, 09:55:40 PM
Airhead, Nash...well said.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: vorticon on December 06, 2004, 09:56:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
It's easy to make your own reality on the Internet too :)


if you have a fair understanding of programming...



:aok
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Tumor on December 06, 2004, 09:57:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Airhead, Nash...well said.


Too late rpm LOL
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 07, 2004, 01:19:07 AM
Quit trying to take the high road.  You liberal biitches were drudging up just about every insult you could come up with while adding with much confidence that Bush would lose.


He didn't.  Your self professed war criminal did.


Take it!
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: lazs2 on December 07, 2004, 08:26:06 AM
this just keeps getting better... Everyone expected Bush to win???  what BB were you reading?  

For me.... it is a good thing... kerrie and company can't do bad things to me or my hobbies for a while.   The NRA is happy and Hot Rod magazine is happy so.... so am I.

moore and stern and 90% of hoolywood won't be able to crown themselves kingmakers.   All the movies and phony news shows didn't work...  The armyu of lawyers assembled to take any election that was remotely close backfired..

The guys who posted some phony or missrepresented anti Bush story every other post are now calling for "an end to gloating and name calling"  and a kinder gentler BB.... sheesh... they were throwing molatov cockltails and standing on overturned cars in the riot a month and a half ago.

The influence of the likes of soros and english folk who took out adds in American newspapers and/or donated huge sums of money to Bush's defeat are themselves defeated..

move on dot org  has.... well.... moved on.  

The women and womenly men and city folk and blacks lost... they should have lost... they were wrong.

lazs
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Nash on December 07, 2004, 08:28:58 AM
Good morning lazs!
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: AKIron on December 07, 2004, 08:36:18 AM
Don't give up so easily Airhead, there's still hope.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140689,00.html


Well, ok, maybe not.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: DREDIOCK on December 07, 2004, 08:39:22 AM
yer all nuts
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: lazs2 on December 07, 2004, 08:54:14 AM
mornin nash.

lazs
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 07, 2004, 09:39:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
this just keeps getting better... Everyone expected Bush to win???  what BB were you reading?  



The guys who posted some phony or missrepresented anti Bush story every other post are now calling for "an end to gloating and name calling"  and a kinder gentler BB.... sheesh... they were throwing molatov cockltails and standing on overturned cars in the riot a month and a half ago.



lazs


I was looking at the polls for my information, not the uninformed opinion of a BB poster. And I'm not calling for a "kinder and gentler" BB either...That wouldn't be as much fun. The vast majority of Kerry voters (and Bush voters, for that matter) voted for their guy with at least a little bit of reservation cause they weren't perfect...

It's only that 1% of the Left Wing Lunatic Fringe who were throwong Molotov cocktails and standing on overturned cars..and had Kerry won you'd see a Right Wing Lunatic Fringe element doing the same thing. The rest of us are someplace in the middle- we're the guys who have jobs, pay taxes, raise families- we ARE America, and even though "our guy" didn't win we'll continue living our life- it was only a life and death election for 2% of you...the other 98% of America have moved on.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 07, 2004, 10:39:06 AM
This has got to be the most pathetic liberal feel good post I have ever seen.  

Airhead, you're pathetic, or it's a damn good troll...  I bet it's the former.

oooh, almost forgot my INSERT
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: rshubert on December 07, 2004, 10:46:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
I was looking at the polls for my information, not the uninformed opinion of a BB poster. And I'm not calling for a "kinder and gentler" BB either...That wouldn't be as much fun. The vast majority of Kerry voters (and Bush voters, for that matter) voted for their guy with at least a little bit of reservation cause they weren't perfect...

It's only that 1% of the Left Wing Lunatic Fringe who were throwong Molotov cocktails and standing on overturned cars..and had Kerry won you'd see a Right Wing Lunatic Fringe element doing the same thing. The rest of us are someplace in the middle- we're the guys who have jobs, pay taxes, raise families- we ARE America, and even though "our guy" didn't win we'll continue living our life- it was only a life and death election for 2% of you...the other 98% of America have moved on.


Then put yourself solidly in the fringe, airhead.  You obviously have not gotten over it, or other people's posts would not give yo the heartburn you have now.  Face it, you are not part of "the rest of us".

Neither am I, for that matter.  I would gloat over the results, but I get no satisfaction from torturing small helpless animals.  Shooting them and eating them, yes...torture, no.



shubie
Title: Re: NOW I understand...
Post by: EN4CER on December 07, 2004, 10:46:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
By all means tho, carry on- it's entertaining...


It is - but don't sit there and state that only one party is celebrating the outcome of the 2004 election.  There are two parties that are celebrating as far as I'm concerned - The Republicans and the Clintons.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: mosgood on December 07, 2004, 10:50:25 AM
If YOU were over it.... you wouldn't have posted this...... :rolleyes:
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: GtoRA2 on December 07, 2004, 10:59:33 AM
Airhead just needs a long walk on the beach.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 07, 2004, 08:06:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mosgood
If YOU were over it.... you wouldn't have posted this...... :rolleyes:


LOL "over it?" I beg your pardon, mosgood, but I was "over it" before 11-7. I understood my side might lose but I also understood that even if we won it'd be status quo, so the election wasn't the earth shaking event all you 1 percenters assume it to be.

I get up in the morning.

I go to work.

I do my best.

And that is my daily reality....just like before November 7th.

It's only "you guys" who have changed the dymacic, that imagine 100 million plus Democratic voters are are leftist homeless people, and all I'm saying is we aren't- we're your neighbors, your co-workers, your softball team teammates. We don't have time to riot- we're doing the same thing you're doing, which is just getting by.

It's ashame you can't get past your black and white view of the world and understand this, but then again I'm trying to address that 1% of fanatics who see a black and white world, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they roost.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Lizking on December 07, 2004, 08:16:23 PM
If the Dems had 100 million, they would have won by 90% + of the popular vote,  Airhead.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: 1K0N on December 07, 2004, 08:49:19 PM
Get back in your re-education camps you librul swine!
And stay down or will do it again!
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: TweetyBird on December 07, 2004, 08:57:41 PM
The cool thing to say would be write the over celebration off as a meager existence. But really I think its just a game nose tweaking (if the oc is a just another game).

My life life is the same as Nov 2nd , no tidal waves here...
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Masherbrum on December 07, 2004, 09:09:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
LOL "over it?"

It's only "you guys" who have changed the dymacic, that imagine 100 million plus Democratic voters are are leftist homeless people, and all I'm saying is we aren't- we're your neighbors, your co-workers, your softball team teammates. We don't have time to riot- we're doing the same thing you're doing, which is just getting by.

It's ashame you can't get past your black and white view of the world and understand this, but then again I'm trying to address that 1% of fanatics who see a black and white world, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they roost.


Hmm. I voted for Perot twice and Bush twice, I MUST BE a Conservative.  Wrong, I'm a gun owner who is tired of Legislation (EITHER Rep. OR Dem.) making me feel equivalent to a criminal.   I pay my taxes, go to work, raise my 3 years old son.  

Karaya

Karaya
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 07, 2004, 10:52:19 PM
Quote
But really I think its just a game nose tweaking



shhh Tweety.  You'll let the cat out of the bag and this is so much fun.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 07, 2004, 10:52:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead

It's only "you guys" who have changed the dymacic, that imagine 100 million plus Democratic voters are are leftist homeless people, and all I'm saying is we aren't- we're your neighbors, your co-workers, your softball team teammates. We don't have time to riot- we're doing the same thing you're doing, which is just getting by.


Airhead and fellow democrats.

You are right that you are NOT my neighbor.  My neighbor to my left is a hard working man of 69, who "earned" every bit of what he has, takes NOTHING from the US government and hates the democrats for pilfering more of his money and "giving it to the bastards who refuse to work for a living" (his own words).  My neighbors to my right are a young white couple who both work full time, and BOTH go to school FULL TIME to better themselves.  They do not qualify for YOUR programs, because they do not wan to quit their jobs and fake being destitue.  They are honest, good people, who struggle at times to get by, but they are, and are going to do better in a few years when school is finished.  They too, voted for Bush, as they "would rather see more people get out and work rather than leech off the system." (the wife's words, the husbands are not repeatable without breaching TOS)

You are NOT my coworkers.  My coworkers ALL voted Bush, because they have watched our company grow, and prosper under republican leadership.  They have watched the threats to our exixtence (democrats like Sen. Carl Levin) blow hard, and make no sense, other than allowing the terrorists to get ahead with modern technology.  They also benefited as we were able to employ more people with the benefits the company garnered in tax breaks and 100% write offs in new eqipment purchased.

You are NOT my softball teamates.  I do not play softball, I work, hunt, fish, ski, and play hockey.  My coworkers all Hate you and your ilk, my hunting buddies think there needs to be a hunting season on your pansey arses, my skiing buds laugh their arses off when you suggest higher taxes and flip you the bird while they invest more in the local ski towns in taxes on condos and chalets.  My hockey buddies are mostly Canadiens that think we are all crazy for having democrats here to begin with when they are not completely drunk and chasing women.

You DO have time to riot, whine, b itch and basically waste the rest of our time and money.  You do it through never ending demands for recounts, injunctive lawsuits to force recounts, and ideas for more taxes and beaurocracy to expand our government.  You do it through attempting to take "In God We Trust" from our money, the "Pledge of Allegiance" from our schools, and the desire to work hard from our young.  You disgrace our ancestry with the desire to get more for nothing and less work for more benefits.

But most of all, you claim to represent America, when you are at best representing the decline of americans into nothing more than socially dependent potatos.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Thrawn on December 07, 2004, 11:16:47 PM
Bodhi, you obviously don't know Airhead very well if you don't think he's worked his bellybutton off, owns his own business and fought in a war for his country.  You obviously don't know **** about liberals or democrats.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 07, 2004, 11:42:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Bodhi, you obviously don't know Airhead very well if you don't think he's worked his bellybutton off, owns his own business and fought in a war for his country.  You obviously don't know **** about liberals or democrats.


No, please, enlighten me by all means Mr. Foreign Liberal
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 08, 2004, 12:01:13 AM
Wow Bodhi, you are dragging the biggest whackjobs out of the weeds.  I agree that the liberal left, like Thrawn, RPM, and their ilk are dangerous to anyone who wants to keep the money they earn.  I'm just not convinced that my friend Airhead is off the charts to the left like  the heretofore mentioned whackos.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 08, 2004, 09:18:42 AM
hard to believe they are serious sometimes...
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 08, 2004, 10:36:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Airhead and fellow democrats.

You are right that you are NOT my neighbor.  My neighbor to my left is a hard working man of 69, who "earned" every bit of what he has, takes NOTHING from the US government and hates the democrats for pilfering more of his money and "giving it to the bastards who refuse to work for a living" (his own words).  My neighbors to my right are a young white couple who both work full time, and BOTH go to school FULL TIME to better themselves.  They do not qualify for YOUR programs, because they do not wan to quit their jobs and fake being destitue.  They are honest, good people, who struggle at times to get by, but they are, and are going to do better in a few years when school is finished.  They too, voted for Bush, as they "would rather see more people get out and work rather than leech off the system." (the wife's words, the husbands are not repeatable without breaching TOS)

You are NOT my coworkers.  My coworkers ALL voted Bush, because they have watched our company grow, and prosper under republican leadership.  They have watched the threats to our exixtence (democrats like Sen. Carl Levin) blow hard, and make no sense, other than allowing the terrorists to get ahead with modern technology.  They also benefited as we were able to employ more people with the benefits the company garnered in tax breaks and 100% write offs in new eqipment purchased.

You are NOT my softball teamates.  I do not play softball, I work, hunt, fish, ski, and play hockey.  My coworkers all Hate you and your ilk, my hunting buddies think there needs to be a hunting season on your pansey arses, my skiing buds laugh their arses off when you suggest higher taxes and flip you the bird while they invest more in the local ski towns in taxes on condos and chalets.  My hockey buddies are mostly Canadiens that think we are all crazy for having democrats here to begin with when they are not completely drunk and chasing women.

You DO have time to riot, whine, b itch and basically waste the rest of our time and money.  You do it through never ending demands for recounts, injunctive lawsuits to force recounts, and ideas for more taxes and beaurocracy to expand our government.  You do it through attempting to take "In God We Trust" from our money, the "Pledge of Allegiance" from our schools, and the desire to work hard from our young.  You disgrace our ancestry with the desire to get more for nothing and less work for more benefits.

But most of all, you claim to represent America, when you are at best representing the decline of americans into nothing more than socially dependent potatos.


Gee, my neighbor on one side was an African American U. of Georgia graduate who's an executive for PG&E. We talked football, pointers (we both bird hunt) and how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Neighbor on the other side was a Mexican immigrant who owned a string of Taquerias. He's an exercise buff, so we talked about exercise, food, and- how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Neighbor two doors down was a Doctor- nice guy, but he's hardly ever home cause he's still in residency, but when I'd see him we'd talk about lawn care, health, and how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Neighbor across the street was a retired car salesman. Quite the handy guy, too- he helped me put in a sprinkler system one weekend. We'd talk cars, remodeling, pool care, and how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Looking back now I am SO glad I never confessed my (gasp) liberalism. Why, if my more conservative neighbors had discovered my dirty little secret they'd have run me out of the neighborhood, right?

All you do is prove my point, Bodhi- you are among that 2% of extremists who has such a black and white, good vs. evil view of the world that you've convinced yourself that EVERY Kerry voter is a rioting, hand wringing tree hugger who hates America, who wants to see America defeated here and abroad...You know better, of course, in your heart of hearts, but by having such a ridgid view of "two legs good, four legs bad" you save yourself the trouble of thinking.

And that brings us back to my point- you imagine Democrats are jumping off cliffs in despair, but really- it's only that small, small percentage of "our" nutburgers who are distressed, and there's only a small, small percentage of YOUR nutburgers who imagine this distress, and use it for mental mastrubation.

Sorry to make you go limp, Bodhi, but that's just the way it is.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: mosgood on December 08, 2004, 11:19:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead

Neighbor on the other side was a Mexican immigrant who owned a string of Taquerias.



OMG.... Taqueria is the BEST , next day volcano bunghole tacos in the world!!
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Staga on December 08, 2004, 11:33:41 AM
Airhead you misspelled "masturbation":

   Definition:       

\Mas`tur*ba"tion\, n. [L. masturbatus, p. p. of
masturbari to practice onanism: cf. F. masturbation.]
Onanism; self-pollution.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 08, 2004, 04:33:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
Gee, my neighbor on one side was an African American U. of Georgia graduate who's an executive for PG&E. We talked football, pointers (we both bird hunt) and how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Neighbor on the other side was a Mexican immigrant who owned a string of Taquerias. He's an exercise buff, so we talked about exercise, food, and- how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Neighbor two doors down was a Doctor- nice guy, but he's hardly ever home cause he's still in residency, but when I'd see him we'd talk about lawn care, health, and how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Neighbor across the street was a retired car salesman. Quite the handy guy, too- he helped me put in a sprinkler system one weekend. We'd talk cars, remodeling, pool care, and how to keep the teenagers from racing up and down the street.

Looking back now I am SO glad I never confessed my (gasp) liberalism. Why, if my more conservative neighbors had discovered my dirty little secret they'd have run me out of the neighborhood, right?

All you do is prove my point, Bodhi- you are among that 2% of extremists who has such a black and white, good vs. evil view of the world that you've convinced yourself that EVERY Kerry voter is a rioting, hand wringing tree hugger who hates America, who wants to see America defeated here and abroad...You know better, of course, in your heart of hearts, but by having such a ridgid view of "two legs good, four legs bad" you save yourself the trouble of thinking.

And that brings us back to my point- you imagine Democrats are jumping off cliffs in despair, but really- it's only that small, small percentage of "our" nutburgers who are distressed, and there's only a small, small percentage of YOUR nutburgers who imagine this distress, and use it for mental mastrubation.

Sorry to make you go limp, Bodhi, but that's just the way it is.


I think you will find that I am not amongst the 2% of "extremists", rather, I am a member of the vast majority of citizens who feel this way, with one exception, I voice my opinion.  

That is great that you have neighbors that you talk to, and are able to help you out.  I have helped the young couple out by giving them my old GMC Sonoma so they can make ends meet just that much better.  No stipulations, no requirements.  Just gave it.  So, ok, we are probably both good neighbors.

As for you claiming to be a passive voyeur of this whole election process and that you are not an extreme "liberal", then WTF are these?

Quote
...I believe Bush will continue his imperialistic adventures in the Middle East while he works to oppress us, the American citizens, and deteroriates our civil rights.

In spite of all this- my belief in the evilness of right wing extremism- I will be voting for President Bush for another four years. And I will vote for every Republican on my ballot- I want them to continue to control all three branches of our Government for another four years. .. because, although I know just how barbaric conservatism is, many in America don't believe it is quite the threat the rest of the world views this administration...and by keeping them in office their policies will fail and they won't be able to blame it on the Dems.

Maybe another four years of our civil rights being violated and Bush starting wars based upon what God tells him to do- maybe more anti homosexual constitutional amendments, maybe more detainees held indefinately without trial- maybe four more years of the Conservatives selling out the common man, sending our jobs overseas-


or this?

Quote
Indeed, many of us "liberals" own firearms, too- it's only the firearms owned by you Neocons we want to see confinscated


Hell, from now on, I am just going to call you pot...



or this?

Quote
Yuk it up while you can, Neocons- the draft starts next week.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 09, 2004, 12:23:30 AM
Bodhi, my comments are no more outrageous than yours, only mine were (mostly) sound bytes.

All I'm sayin is that we ARE your neighbors, your co-workers. We're 48% of the population, and most of us work, have a mortgage and pay the same tax rate YOU do. We shop in your stores. Our kids go to school together. We don't have time to riot. We don't hug trees. Some of the crap (actually a LOT of the crap) the Democrats say embarasses me- but my personal beliefs of what Government should do are better represented by the Democratic party.

Anyway this election was a choice between billionares from the elite set, so it's not like we were running Fidel Castro against Adolph Hitler or nothing. It was a samo-samo propisition, for the most part.

This was the tough election, and in 2008 John McCain will run for the Republicans and win in a landslide...it doesn't even matter who the Dems put up. It doesn't even matter what happens in Iraq- if the war goes well McCain wins based upon that success, and if Iraq goes badly McCain wins on the promise to resolve the conflict.

So...if anybody feels like they can't live under a Republican Presidency then you better leave, cause we have eight more years of them. Me, I'm staying, growing my business and voting Democrat. Only I won't tell nobody.

;)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Mini D on December 09, 2004, 12:32:21 AM
Airhead.... your main problem is that you voted 4 days too late.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 09, 2004, 12:36:55 AM
Airhead, so now you say McCain will be the next president?

Weren't you the one who said that you were voting Bush so that the rest of the US would see that the Republicans were gonna fail and fade off like socialism and fascism???  Now you are saying McCain will win?

Please, wwhich mouth are you talking out of now?  It is hard to keep track of your different personalities...
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 09, 2004, 01:04:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Airhead, so now you say McCain will be the next president?

Weren't you the one who said that you were voting Bush so that the rest of the US would see that the Republicans were gonna fail and fade off like socialism and fascism???  Now you are saying McCain will win?

Please, wwhich mouth are you talking out of now?  It is hard to keep track of your different personalities...


Yeah Bodhi... I sincerely intended to vote for Bush...however, when I went into the voting booth I just couldn't do it. I tried, really- but I thought of the issues instead of the man, and I could not hang my chad in Bush's hole.

Don't get me wrong- I believe Iraq is a disaster in the making, mostly because we're so understaffed there. And, at the time, I felt if Bush fell flat on his face we'd get a Democrat in the Oval Office for 2008- but really, McCain is sitting in the catbird seat because he's seen as more bipartisan than Bush and the Dems have noone electable. Who they gonna run- Hillary? If Iraq goes bad he's a savior, if it goes good he's the heir appearent.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 01:45:43 AM
Quote
but my personal beliefs of what Government should do are better represented by the Democratic party.


Really?  And what specifically are you referring to.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Lazerus on December 09, 2004, 02:03:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
 Some of the crap (actually a LOT of the crap) the Democrats say embarasses me- but my personal beliefs of what Government should do are better represented by the Democratic party.  


Can you explaine for us, or hell, just for me, what you believe 'Government' should do and why the Democratic party represents that to you?

Sincerely curious.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 09, 2004, 11:03:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
Can you explaine for us, or hell, just for me, what you believe 'Government' should do and why the Democratic party represents that to you?

Sincerely curious.


Sure Lazerus- I'd be happy to.

Labor- I believe in a liveable minimum wage. I believe Unions provide middle class jobs and are a cornerstone of our society. Part of the deteroration of the middle class is the stripping of labor laws and rules which have protected Labor. The Democrats are more user friendly than Republicans on labor issues.

Capital Punishment- I am opposed to capital punishment for several reasons, the foremost being that we execute too many innocent people. Also it's more expensive to execute them than it is to imprison them, and we're just about the only modern society who still has capital punishment.

Abortion- I'm torn on this, but in the final analysis I choose not to prohibit abortion because I don't have the right to dictate others' morality. A halfway measure is allowing abortion for rape victims, but I see that as hypocritical- either the welfare of the fetus is paramount, or it's not. Either we allow abortions- or we don't. On a practical side outlawing abortions will only create a whole new group of law breakers, and put us back to the days of back alley abortions performed with coat hangers.

Gay Marriage- In favor. Or at least in favor of ending Government discrimination against gay people- and allowing gay couples the same rights and privelages hetrosexual couples have. Why should MY life partner be vested in my retirement,or be on my health plan when a gay couple, in a relationship just as committed as ours, isn't? I view this as inherently unfair, and am opposed to an anti homosexual constitutional amendment.

Gun Control- I'm in favor of a Nationwide background check, and registration of ALL firearms. Even if we keep one firearm out of the hands of a felon then it's worthwhile.

School Vouchers- Opposed. Who is going to set up a private school in Watts? All vouchers will do is further deterorate our public school system. OTOH part of the problem with public schools is the cerriculum has gotten away from the basics, and we have a philosophy of only moving as fast as the slowest student instear of the average student.

Iraq- Opposed from the beginning.

Welfare- Capitalism produces casualties- I'm in favor of a safety net to prevent children going to bed hungry. (Oh-oh, if I say "hunger in America" that means I AM a tree hugger) I'm also in favor of tighter controls and preventing welfare fraud. In fact I've talked about the "care giver" fraud in Humboldt County here.


There Lazarus, that's a short list on a few of the issues that divide Republicans and Democrats, and, as you can see, I'm a Democrat on most issues.

 I'm also a Republican on some issues, too- for instance, I believe in fiscal responsibility and a balanced budget. I also believe in individual States' rights and a less centralized Government...ironically, two issues Republicans seem to have flip flopped on.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Staga on December 09, 2004, 11:09:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead

 I'm also a Republican on some issues, too- for instance, I believe in fiscal responsibility and a balanced budget.


So you didn't get the memo? Balanced budget is something which happened in last century when democrats were running the country and has nothing to do with modern USA with republican president..
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 11:16:01 AM
A Balanced budget has NOTHING to do w/ the state of the economy.  Carter balanced the budget and the economy went in the tank.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 11:18:03 AM
Airhead, you're entitled to your views.

Hard to argue opinions.

Except your Union note.  Unions artificially raise wages. Someone has to pay for this and it's not the employer, it's the consumer.  The very people you are giving these raises to.  Unions are NOT good for employment or the economy.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: oboe on December 09, 2004, 11:20:36 AM
Just an question, Airhead -

Given your views on the issues, how could you have possibly gone into any voting both intending to vote for George Bush?

As you point out, even the last two on your list don't fit with what Bush has promised or done.

Also you left out two very large issues - Healthcare and Social Security.    Just curious, where do you stand on those issues?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: oboe on December 09, 2004, 11:43:44 AM
Steve,

I'm not a union member but I think your ideas about unions are way off the mark.   Do you realize what life was like in this country before unions?    10 hour days, 6 day workweeks, barely livable wages, no job security and unsafe working conditions were the rule of the day for working people.    In fact these conditions are why unions rose to power in the first place.
Unions (and the GI Bill) help usher in an era of prosperity for the middle class that helped make the American Dream reachable for many.

I'll agree with you that there are industries where unions became too powerful and became a detriment (airlines, autos).   Its all a cycle anyway, though; union membership has been falling for decades (as America loses its manufacturing base).

S'all good.   I do believe if things keep going the way they are, you'll get to experience living in a society without a middle class.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 09, 2004, 11:46:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Airhead, you're entitled to your views.

Hard to argue opinions.

Except your Union note.  Unions artificially raise wages. Someone has to pay for this and it's not the employer, it's the consumer.  The very people you are giving these raises to.  Unions are NOT good for employment or the economy.


Steve, do you believe we'd be better off if we abolished the minimum wage, abolished the 40 hour week, abolished OSHA and workplace safety, and abolished child labor laws? All these came about because of the Labor movement, which is currently under Republican assault.

Unions provide jobs which allow people to live a middle class lifestyle. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 11:47:46 AM
Quote
Unions provide jobs which allow people to live a middle class lifestyle. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.



At the expense of others.  Do you think, seriously, that the cost of higher wages is absorbed by the employer?  That the employer will lose money so he can employ union labor?  

Quote
Steve, do you believe we'd be better off if we abolished the minimum wage,


Absolutely.


Quote
All these came about because of the Labor movement


I didn't assail the labor movement, just your incorrect stand on Unions.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 11:49:40 AM
Quote
which is currently under Republican assault


Ya better educate me here.  I don't know how it is under assault.  Fill me in, I'm unaware of what you are referring to.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 09, 2004, 12:04:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
Just an question, Airhead -

Given your views on the issues, how could you have possibly gone into any voting both intending to vote for George Bush?

As you point out, even the last two on your list don't fit with what Bush has promised or done.

Also you left out two very large issues - Healthcare and Social Security.    Just curious, where do you stand on those issues?


Kerry's character was a HUGE issue with me. I watched that 1971 interview with Kerry where he claimed GIs  were cutting off ears, raping civilians, etc., etc.- and all he was doing was repeating "jungle legend." There may have been autrocies, as there is in every war, but he never witnessed any, and by claiming it was widespread he helped to stigmatize the returning Viet Vet as a drug addicted, sociopathic cowboy. I felt like he was politicking, even then, and he sold out GIs for political gain. That, and Kerry seems pompous and stuffy to me.

And Bush, OTOH, is actually a likeable kind of person with a good sense of humor. Although I disagree with his policies, I'd prefer hanging out with Bush over Kerry.

It wasn't quite the cut and dried decision you might think.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Staga on December 09, 2004, 12:49:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
A Balanced budget has NOTHING to do w/ the state of the economy.  


Okay if you say so :)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 02:09:22 PM
Staga, please show me an example in the U.S. of how the budget is the key factor the the state of the economy.

Our economy is BOOMING, growing nicely thank you;all the while the deficit increases.

What are you going to say?  The hammer is going to fall?  Borrowed time?   Blah blah blah, we've run at deficit for many many years, during that time we have remained the most productive country , THE world power, most charitable country, maintained among the highest standard of living, increased homeownership significantly.... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

How again is the balanced budget the key factor in our economy?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Furious on December 09, 2004, 02:36:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
...Unions provide jobs which allow people to live a middle class lifestyle, reguardless of whether or not it is actually deserved or earned. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.


I changed your quote a little bit to make it more correct.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 09, 2004, 03:30:29 PM
Quote
...Unions provide jobs which allow people to live a middle class lifestyle, reguardless of whether or not it is actually deserved or earned. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.



ding ding ding ding

We have a winner!
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: mietla on December 09, 2004, 04:36:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Airhead.... your main problem is that you voted 4 days too late.


so what? every vote counts.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: oboe on December 09, 2004, 05:42:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Staga, please show me an example in the U.S. of how the budget is the key factor the the state of the economy.

Our economy is BOOMING, growing nicely thank you;all the while the deficit increases.

What are you going to say?  The hammer is going to fall?  Borrowed time?   Blah blah blah, we've run at deficit for many many years, during that time we have remained the most productive country , THE world power, most charitable country, maintained among the highest standard of living, increased homeownership significantly.... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

How again is the balanced budget the key factor in our economy?


I could maintain a "booming" household economy too, if I kept getting new credit cards and maxing them out.  Sooner or later the bill will due, and I don't think the creditors will accept "Blah, blah, blah." as payment.

The United States has a much higher average hours worked per person than many countries, yet we have more people below the poverty line than 26 other nations.     Our standard of living is in the lower half of the top ten; we are consistently lower than the Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia, and Japan.   The American health care system is one of the best in the world, but is one of the worst amongst developed countries.
Our grade school education system is below many developed countries.  

The truth may hurt, but I don't think we have much to brag about standard-of-living wise to citizens of other developed countries.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 06:27:08 PM
Quote
could maintain a "booming" household economy too, if I kept getting new credit cards and maxing them out. Sooner or later the bill will due, and I don't think the creditors will accept "Blah, blah, blah." as payment.


Make excuses all you want. invent things all you want.  You cannot deny that the housing market is booming.  Try this, just once: the economy is growing.

Maybe you're one of those whackjob leftists that just cannot face that things are going good in the economy.... can't help ya.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 06:27:57 PM
Quote
The American health care system is one of the best in the world, but is one of the worst amongst developed countries.


This is just plain bulllshiit
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Maniac on December 09, 2004, 06:30:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
You cannot deny that the housing market is booming.  Try this, just once: the economy is growing.



That may be because its so cheap to make loans... The interest is low, so people can afford to loan money to buy a house.

But when the interest goes up?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 06:32:55 PM
Quote
That may be because its so cheap to make loans... The interest is low, so people can afford to loan money to buy a house.



Certainly low interest loans have something to do with it.  Interests rates WILL go up.  Someday the housing market will not be as booming as it is now... is that your point?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Maniac on December 09, 2004, 06:38:26 PM
I dont really have "point" i just replyed to your post...

I can relate to over here, alot of people that "lives on the margin" sees the house market to make money, they buy houses/appartments to SICK prices right now, due to the interest rates being so low...

And if the interest rates would go up 1-2 notches due to whatever reason, then theres alot of people wanting to sell their stuff because they cant afford to live there anymore.

And if this happens, they will flood the market. And prices will drop alot.

IMHO.

EDIT : but it sort off aplies to what oboe said :

Quote
I could maintain a "booming" household economy too, if I kept getting new credit cards and maxing them out. Sooner or later the bill will due, and I don't think the creditors will accept "Blah, blah, blah." as payment.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 06:44:06 PM
Maniac, most mortgages are fixed rate.  Even the ARM's have a maximum amount that they can go up.  A sttep rise in interest rates would no doubt impact new loans/housing starts but would have little effect on those that already have loans.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Maniac on December 09, 2004, 06:47:48 PM
No prob man.

Over here everyone is running a "floating rate" and they have a "option" to bind it.. (fixed rate). But as soon as you go for the Fixed rate, it aint so appealing anymore. Because the "floating rate" is much much much cheaper interest wise...

I dont know much about this topic, im just using common sense when i watch this phenomon (sp?) from the sidelines.

I just cant get the feeling away that this is the next "IT-Bubble" waiting to burst.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Thrawn on December 09, 2004, 06:49:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
I agree that the liberal left, like Thrawn, RPM, and their ilk are dangerous to anyone who wants to keep the money they earn.



I'm more of a capitalist than you could ever dream of being, but go ahead and pidgeon hole, it means you have to think less.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 07:00:59 PM
ahhh.   Here "interest only" loans are big.  The housing market is so big that there is a lottery on new lots.  I bought a rental with a nothing down loan.  If I had more money I'd make a mint on the housing market here in AZ and there is no sign of it slowing down.

I'm getting my real estate liscense so I can get into it more.  I've already made some  money and it's not due to any special brilliance on my part ( I'm your average guy).  It's a no brainer right now.

Here's how simple it is:  You buy a house in the new stage of a development.  Then you allow the contractor to delay building it as long as they want.  by the time the house is completed in 6 months it's worth 20K more than you paid for it.  You can sell it in one day.  Houses are selling like hotcakes for full pop.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 09, 2004, 07:02:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
I'm more of a capitalist than you could ever dream of being, but go ahead and pidgeon hole, it means you have to think less.


provide details ohh mr capitalist extrodinaire...

otherwise, STFU
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 07:04:11 PM
Thrawn, your politics are so far left of center tha tthey're off the page, whackjob.


Quote
I'm more of a capitalist than you could ever dream of being


You have no idea how much of a capitalist I am, fruitcake.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Maniac on December 09, 2004, 07:05:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
ahhh.   Here "interest only" loans are big.  The housing market is so big that there is a lottery on new lots.  I bought a rental with a nothing down loan.  If I had more money I'd make a mint on the housing market here in AZ and there is no sign of it slowing down.

I'm getting my real estate liscense so I can get into it more.  I've already made some  money and it's not due to any special brilliance on my part ( I'm your average guy).  It's a no brainer right now.

Here's how simple it is:  You buy a house in the new stage of a development.  Then you allow the contractor to delay building it as long as they want.  by the time the house is completed in 6 months it's worth 20K more than you paid for it.  You can sell it in one day.  Houses are selling like hotcakes for full pop.


I hear ya man. Its the same situation over here, but with a twist.

But you have to ask yourself... SOMETIME people will have a limit to what they have money wisey to shell out. A roof is bound to be hit.

Or am i wrong? After all, peoples salaries aint rising with the same rate as of the house/appartment costs?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 07:14:11 PM
Well your bubble speculation could be right.  I believe that one should know when the market is going to have a downturn.  I don't have a crystal ball but dramatic housing and interest rate changes  are not that hard to foresee, IMHO.

One day the housing market will have a downturn, no doubt.

Housing costs/salary ... interesting.  Yes, with rising housing costs, maybe..... smaller/cheaper houses?   Dunno.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Staga on December 09, 2004, 07:35:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Thrawn, your politics are so far left of center tha tthey're off the page, whackjob.

You have no idea how much of a capitalist I am, fruitcake.



I'M BIGGER CAPILIST THAN ANY OF YOU! :mad:
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Maniac on December 09, 2004, 07:38:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
I'M BIGGER CAPILIST THAN ANY OF YOU! :mad:


Go to bed allready ;)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Bodhi on December 09, 2004, 08:44:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
I'M BIGGER CAPILIST THAN ANY OF YOU! :mad:


Nice Communist accent there Stalin...
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2004, 09:04:41 PM
Nothing says a bright future more than endless bi-partisan jacking off.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 09, 2004, 11:04:17 PM
Bite the pillow Arlo, I'm almost there.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 09, 2004, 11:06:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Bite the pillow Arlo, I'm almost there.


Ah...so you are in favor of gay marriage then, huh, Steve?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Arlo on December 09, 2004, 11:17:23 PM
You say ya wanna revoluuuuution ... wellll, ya know ..... ya gotta be careful what ya wish for ......
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Staga on December 10, 2004, 04:49:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Nice Communist accent there Stalin...


Sorry Bodhi; You won't find any communist or even socialist from this family but if you like the idea then keep it and have fun with it :)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 10, 2004, 10:35:08 AM
Actually Airhead, I have no issue w/ gay marriage other than I do not think a gay couple should be allowed to adopt.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: lazs2 on December 10, 2004, 10:40:31 AM
so airhead... other than a nationwide background check and the regestration of every single firearm.... you have no other gun control restrictions?

lazs
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 10, 2004, 10:54:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
so airhead... other than a nationwide background check and the regestration of every single firearm.... you have no other gun control restrictions?

lazs


Increased penalties for gun crime, Lazs...that's about it. Penalties for participating in the "underground" gun trade maybe...Personally I have no problem with a waiting period. I don't know how many felons it's prevented from buying guns, but if it's prevented any at all, then why not?  Other than that my feeling on firearms is that I benefit by being allowed to posess firearms whether I actually own any or not. Your ownership of firearms acts as a deterrant to home invaders and burgulars, and the chance of your firearm being used against me is astronomical.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: lazs2 on December 10, 2004, 11:05:02 AM
I agree on the penalties but don't consider them a gun restriction...  I have a problem with regestration as I don't really see how it prevents anything... sorta like the failed ammo regestration scheme a few decades back.... I am also not comfortable having government know exactly what tools I own to keep them in line and where to pick them up if they decide to.

Waiting periods?   not a big deal unless you need a gun right away... there are several cases of women being killed while waiting for their firearm by husbands or boyfriends who have threatened them and had restraining orders filed against them.   If a waiting period causes the death of even one person it's a bad idea.

instant background checks?  no problem.   depending of course on what you are checking for.  

probly tho... I could live with your restrictions if they weren't abused.    I don't trust governmment to not abuse restrictions tho.

lazs
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 11, 2004, 10:55:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I agree on the penalties but don't consider them a gun restriction...  I have a problem with regestration as I don't really see how it prevents anything... sorta like the failed ammo regestration scheme a few decades back.... I am also not comfortable having government know exactly what tools I own to keep them in line and where to pick them up if they decide to.

Waiting periods?   not a big deal unless you need a gun right away... there are several cases of women being killed while waiting for their firearm by husbands or boyfriends who have threatened them and had restraining orders filed against them.   If a waiting period causes the death of even one person it's a bad idea.

instant background checks?  no problem.   depending of course on what you are checking for.  

probly tho... I could live with your restrictions if they weren't abused.    I don't trust governmment to not abuse restrictions tho.

lazs


Quicker Goverment response is something I'd like to see too- it took 120 days to get a DofJ security clearance recently. But to have a quicker beaucratic response might require more beaucrats...
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 11, 2004, 11:25:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Wow Bodhi, you are dragging the biggest whackjobs out of the weeds.  I agree that the liberal left, like Thrawn, RPM, and their ilk are dangerous to anyone who wants to keep the money they earn.  I'm just not convinced that my friend Airhead is off the charts to the left like  the heretofore mentioned whackos.


Well, I hate to jump into this one but I just cant resist.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

(CBS/AP) President Bush signed legislation on Friday raising the government's debt limit by $800 billion and clearing the way for Congress to send him an overdue $388 billion spending bill to finance most federal agencies.

The new federal borrowing cap is $8.18 trillion; that's 70 percent the size of the entire U.S. economy, and more than $2.4 trillion higher than the debt Mr. Bush inherited upon taking office in 2001.

The House approved the debt-limit measure Thursday by a near party line 208-204 vote. Its passage was not in doubt because the alternative was a jarring federal default, but it was nonetheless a battlefield for partisan fingerpointing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Steve, who is going to pay for this?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Staga on December 11, 2004, 12:52:50 PM
What do you mean who's going to pay? Government of course, are you saying individual Americans should pay that debt? :aok
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 11, 2004, 01:10:18 PM
Whitehawk, you know who is going to pay for it.  Do you have a point?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 11, 2004, 01:14:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
What do you mean who's going to pay? Government of course, are you saying individual Americans should pay that debt? :aok


No, steve seems to subscribe to that theroy and I agree.

I dont wanna pay for no mammies 15 illigitamate, father unknown, street dwelling, crack junkies, and i dont wanna pay for no, loot america while we enrich ourselves and blame it on the terrorists, either.
  Maybe we should let each individual decide where his tax money gets spent.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 11, 2004, 01:27:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Whitehawk, you know who is going to pay for it.  Do you have a point?


No, i must be in the wrong thread, sorry.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 11, 2004, 01:31:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Wow Bodhi, you are dragging the biggest whackjobs out of the weeds.  I agree that the liberal left, like Thrawn, RPM, and their ilk are dangerous to anyone who wants to keep the money they earn.  I'm just not convinced that my friend Airhead is off the charts to the left like  the heretofore mentioned whackos.


Oh yea, here it its.

Do you think that a massive financial debt is dangerous to those who want to keep the money they earned?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Swager on December 11, 2004, 01:42:28 PM
Sometimes people find it had to let go as they watch their country slowly spiral down the crapper.

I do have faith in this country for she'll recover from her mistreatment in the long run.  Maybe not in my lifetime, but she will recover from the damage.

Hopefully in the near future we can have presidential candidates who are ethical and possess integrity.  I know it is a dream but I am not so ignorant to believe that we actually have that now.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 11, 2004, 04:34:40 PM
Quote
Do you think that a massive financial debt is dangerous to those who want to keep the money they earned?


Dangerous?  Nope.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Thrawn on December 11, 2004, 05:30:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Dangerous?  Nope.


Nice answer Kruschev.  When you go into debt you give power to those who you are indebted to.  Which sucks if you like freedom, but is great if you are commie.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 11, 2004, 07:10:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Dangerous?  Nope.


Okay, so lets sum this up.  Whackjobs like thrawan and rpm are dangerous to those who wish to keep thier hard earned money, but a debt that requires emergency legislation to prevent the country from going bankrupt, no problemo eh?

Must be nice to be a conservative, so loud, yet so simple.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 11, 2004, 09:08:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Okay, so lets sum this up.  Whackjobs like thrawan and rpm are dangerous to those who wish to keep thier hard earned money, but a debt that requires emergency legislation to prevent the country from going bankrupt, no problemo eh?

Must be nice to be a conservative, so loud, yet so simple.


WhiteHawk, a balanced budget is the cornerstone of a fiscal conservative agenda, which is one of the few conservative agendas I believe in. Unfortunately, the current administration breaks from this tenant of conservatism in favor of buy now pay later policies- and the fanbois excuse this by making believe nobody will ever, ultimately, have to pay the debt.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 11, 2004, 10:42:23 PM
Yes Airhead and Whitehawk, we should fight the war with no budget, right?  You studmuffings cry on one hand that there isn't enough armored vehicles to go around then cry on the other that the budget is too high.

You piss and moan out of both sides of your mouth.

My view is simple:  the war is just, and must be paid for.


Tards like Thrawn and Co. want to take my hard earned income and redistribute it.  It was this I was originally refering to, not the budget.

Get it?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Thrawn on December 12, 2004, 03:32:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Tards like Thrawn and Co. want to take my hard earned income and redistribute it.


Prove it.  If not, TAKE IT!


Quote
My view is simple: the war is just, and must be paid for.



Sweet, sweet commienism.  You believe in it, therefore you want all the other taxpayers to pay for it, even if they don't believe in it.  Thanks for proving my point again Trotsky.  You can't possibly know if you are a capitalist, socialist or not because you don't know the difference.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2004, 05:21:02 AM
Quote
You can't possibly know if you are a capitalist, socialist or not because you don't know the difference.


*snicker*

Are you randomly putting words together to form sentences?


I have to prove nothing.  You've already establised that you're a socialist whackjob.



Quote
TAKE IT!



heheheheh!
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Staga on December 12, 2004, 09:40:43 AM
Steve you might want to stop digging any deeper :aok
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2004, 12:46:58 PM
Staga, STFU I don't know you.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: AKIron on December 12, 2004, 12:53:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
WhiteHawk, a balanced budget is the cornerstone of a fiscal conservative agenda, which is one of the few conservative agendas I believe in. Unfortunately, the current administration breaks from this tenant of conservatism in favor of buy now pay later policies- and the fanbois excuse this by making believe nobody will ever, ultimately, have to pay the debt.


One way to eliminate the excessive spending of hundreds of billions on social programs is to go broke. That's what the democrats are really so angry about isn't it? That we're spending money on something besides them?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 12, 2004, 01:11:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
One way to eliminate the excessive spending of hundreds of billions on social programs is to go broke. That's what the democrats are really so angry about isn't it? That we're spending money on something besides them?


  I dont know what or if the democrats are angfy about anythin.  I am concerned that we are 2/3rds of our national value is debt.  So, in the future , instead of spending money on highways (good paying jobs), schools (good paying jobs), research and developement of alternative fuel sources (necessary investment in the future of america and the world),  a clean environment, (investment in america), etc.,, we are going to be paying interest, which as anybody with a credit card knows, is a waste of money.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 12, 2004, 01:45:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Yes Airhead and Whitehawk, we should fight the war with no budget, right?  You studmuffings cry on one hand that there isn't enough armored vehicles to go around then cry on the other that the budget is too high.

You piss and moan out of both sides of your mouth.

My view is simple:  the war is just, and must be paid for.


Tards like Thrawn and Co. want to take my hard earned income and redistribute it.  It was this I was originally refering to, not the budget.

Get it?


Ahhh, the namecalling.  Internet tuff guys always make me giggle.


Anyway, I cry that we dont have a war budget anymore or a national budget anymore, since our leaders just keep upping the limit, AND we STILL dont have enough armored vehicles to go around.  You see my point? Where is all this money going?  My hard earned money?

  I am calling your accusation that thrawn and his evil buddies would take your hard earned money and use it for social programs here, but you dont care that the Bush admin is taking your hard earned money and, if they ever finish this war,  are going to spend it on social programs in Iraq?  I am just curious as to what the diff is?  I am always eager to learn.

By the way, only a coward would use fightin words when there is no chance of a fight.
 :aok
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2004, 01:51:30 PM
Quote
but you dont care that the Bush admin is taking your hard earned money and, if they ever finish this war, are going to spend it on social programs in Iraq? I am just curious as to what the diff is? I am always eager to learn.


I care, and it sucks.

However, I feel that what we are doing in Iraq is necessary for our country.  I do not feel many social programs here in the US are.  I could list them but I think you can guess a few on your own.

BTW buckwheat, ya better check to see who started the namecalling and I haven't come close to fightin words.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: WhiteHawk on December 12, 2004, 02:22:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
I care, and it sucks.


BTW buckwheat, ya better check to see who started the namecalling and I haven't come close to fightin words.


Well, you called me a studmuffing and a buckwheat.  Thats strike 2, punk.:D
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 12, 2004, 04:00:21 PM
Buckwheat isn't really an insult, biitch.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: CAVY on December 15, 2004, 09:36:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Well, you called me a studmuffing and a buckwheat.  Thats strike 2, punk.:D



Man..You guy's should meet some place and settle this like the ladies you sound like:rofl :rofl :lol :lol ...Come On!!! Chill out...It's Christmas.....You sound ridiculous....
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 15, 2004, 10:30:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by WhiteHawk


By the way, only a coward would use fightin words when there is no chance of a fight.
 :aok


No, I think the correct phrase is "Only a coward would hit a fellow coward." It was uttered by Bob Hope in that classic Western movie, "Cat Ballou," as a bad guy was chasing him around the room. I've been using it for 30 years, and it has saved me from getting beat up on several occasions.
Title: Perspective
Post by: Toad on December 15, 2004, 10:40:29 AM
Yeah, like this is something really new and unheard of in US politics and policy.

Anyone want to find a similar listing that shows the National Debt as a percentage of GNP? That would be interesting too.


National Debt History (http://www.toptips.com/debt_history.htm)

Date Amount            
09/30/2003  $6,783,231,062,743.62      
09/30/2002  6,228,235,965,597.16      
09/28/2001  5,807,463,412,200.06      
09/30/2000  5,674,178,209,886.86      
09/30/1999  5,656,270,901,615.43      
09/30/1998  5,526,193,008,897.62      
09/30/1997  5,413,146,011,397.34      
09/30/1996  5,224,810,939,135.73      
09/29/1995  4,973,982,900,709.39      
09/30/1994  4,692,749,910,013.32      
09/30/1993  4,411,488,883,139.38      
09/30/1992  4,064,620,655,521.66      
09/30/1991  3,665,303,351,697.03      
09/28/1990  3,233,313,451,777.25      
09/29/1989  2,857,430,960,187.32      
09/30/1988  2,602,337,712,041.16      
09/30/1987  2,350,276,890,953.00      
09/30/1986  2,125,302,616,658.42      
12/31/1985  1,945,941,616,459.88      
12/31/1984  1,662,966,000,000.00    *
12/31/1983  1,410,702,000,000.00    *
12/31/1982  1,197,073,000,000.00    *
12/31/1981  1,028,729,000,000.00    *
12/31/1980  930,210,000,000.00    *
12/31/1979  845,116,000,000.00    *
12/29/1978  789,207,000,000.00    *
12/30/1977  718,943,000,000.00    *
12/31/1976  653,544,000,000.00    *
12/31/1975  576,649,000,000.00    *
12/31/1974  492,665,000,000.00    *
12/31/1973  469,898,039,554.70      
12/29/1972  449,298,066,119.00      
12/31/1971  424,130,961,959.95      
12/31/1970  389,158,403,690.26      
12/31/1969  368,225,581,254.41      
12/31/1968  358,028,625,002.91      
12/29/1967  344,663,009,745.18      
12/30/1966  329,319,249,366.68      
12/31/1965  320,904,110,042.04      
12/31/1964  317,940,472,718.38      
12/31/1963  309,346,845,059.17      
12/31/1962  303,470,080,489.27      
12/29/1961  296,168,761,214.92      
12/30/1960  290,216,815,241.68      
12/31/1959  290,797,771,717.63      
12/31/1958  282,922,423,583.87      
12/31/1957  274,897,784,290.72      
12/31/1956  276,627,527,996.11      
12/30/1955  280,768,553,188.96      
12/31/1954  278,749,814,391.33      
12/31/1953  275,168,120,129.39      
06/30/1953  266,071,061,638.57      
06/30/1952  259,105,178,785.43      
06/29/1951  255,221,976,814.93      
06/30/1950  257,357,352,351.04      
06/30/1949  252,770,359,860.33      
06/30/1948  252,292,246,512.99      
06/30/1947  258,286,383,108.67      
06/28/1946  269,422,099,173.26      
06/30/1945  258,682,187,409.93      
06/30/1944  201,003,387,221.13      
06/30/1943  136,696,090,329.90      
06/30/1942  72,422,445,116.22      
06/30/1941  48,961,443,535.71      
06/29/1940  42,967,531,037.68      
06/30/1939  40,439,532,411.11      
06/30/1938  37,164,740,315.45      
06/30/1937  36,424,613,732.29      
06/30/1936  33,778,543,493.73      
06/29/1935  28,700,892,624.53      
06/30/1934  27,053,141,414.48      
06/30/1933  22,538,672,560.15      
06/30/1932  19,487,002,444.13      
06/30/1931  16,801,281,491.71      
06/30/1930  16,185,309,831.43      
06/29/1929  16,931,088,484.10      
06/30/1928  17,604,293,201.43      
06/30/1927  18,511,906,931.85      
06/30/1926  19,643,216,315.19      
06/30/1925  20,516,193,887.90      
06/30/1924  21,250,812,989.49      
06/30/1923  22,349,707,365.36      
06/30/1922  22,963,381,708.31      
06/30/1921  23,977,450,552.54      
07/01/1920  25,952,456,406.16      
07/01/1919  27,390,970,113.12      
07/01/1918  14,592,161,414.00      
07/01/1917  5,717,770,279.52      
07/01/1916  3,609,244,262.16      
07/01/1915  3,058,136,873.16      
07/01/1914  2,912,499,269.16      
07/01/1913  2,916,204,913.66      
07/01/1912  2,868,373,874.16      
07/01/1911  2,765,600,606.69      
07/01/1910  2,652,665,838.04      
07/01/1909  2,639,546,241.04      
07/01/1908  2,626,806,271.54      
07/01/1907  2,457,188,061.54      
07/01/1906  2,337,161,839.04      
07/01/1905  2,274,615,063.84      
07/01/1904  2,264,003,585.14      
07/01/1903  2,202,464,781.89      
07/01/1902  2,158,610,445.89      
07/01/1901  2,143,326,933.89      
07/01/1900  2,136,961,091.67      

* denotes a rounding up to nearest million

NOTE 1: The National Debt has not gone down (from year to year) since the end of the Dwight Eisenhower administration
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 15, 2004, 11:38:06 AM
Toad, the phrase "He's bankrupting our country to fight a war" is a phrase invented by us, the Left. It is designed to scare voters into voting Dem in 2008- and for you to post a list showing a steady growth in our debt, regardless of who the President is, is dirty politics.

How DARE you bring facts, figures and logic to political debates! If you can't keep to denegration, name calling and buzz words then you shouldn't be discussing politics here. I'm not sure, but I think using logic is a violation of TOS...but I'll leave your potential banning up to Skuzzy.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2004, 12:02:39 PM
Nah Cavy, I actually met up w/ an internet tough guy once.  Even w/ the two friends he brought, he wilted at my invitation to get out of his car and have a discussion.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Red Tail 444 on December 15, 2004, 02:28:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Nah Cavy, I actually met up w/ an internet tough guy once.  Even w/ the two friends he brought, he wilted at my invitation to get out of his car and have a discussion.


LOL @ "Internet tough guy"

I guess you're the true internet toughguy, Toughguy :rofl
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Toad on December 15, 2004, 04:17:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
How DARE you bring facts, figures and logic to political debates! If you can't keep to denegration, name calling and buzz words then you shouldn't be discussing politics here.


I am deeply apologetic! Please accept my most humble apologies.

1. I didn't know it was wrong.

2. I am truly sorry and I beg your forgiveness.

3. I promise never to do it again.

(For those of you that don't recognize it, this is the "rule of three" they taught me in the AF. It's useful in many situations; feel free to make it your own.)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: oboe on December 15, 2004, 05:16:38 PM
I see the facts and figures, but where is the logic?

Or is the implication that the national debt is a nonissue because we've had one for so many years?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 15, 2004, 05:31:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
I see the facts and figures, but where is the logic?

Or is the implication that the national debt is a nonissue because we've had one for so many years?


It's a nonissue because we've had one under so many administrations.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: oboe on December 15, 2004, 06:29:39 PM
I think that could prove to be a foolish conclusion.

Things are quite different now than they were then.   Lots of things.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Masherbrum on December 15, 2004, 07:34:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
Steve, do you believe we'd be better off if we abolished the minimum wage, abolished the 40 hour week, abolished OSHA and workplace safety, and abolished child labor laws? All these came about because of the Labor movement, which is currently under Republican assault.

Unions provide jobs which allow people to live a middle class lifestyle. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.


You realize the middle class makes $100,000 a year?  

Karaya
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Toad on December 15, 2004, 09:04:23 PM
Oboe, regardless of how different things are "now", it's pretty clear that over the last 40+ years the debt has gone up every single year.

One could point out that lots of things have been "quite different" over that period of time but the penchant of Congress to routinely spend more than the government takes in appears to be unchanging.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Airhead on December 15, 2004, 09:39:37 PM
That's true, Toad, but the issue of tax cuts (which benefited the wealthiest BTW)  in the face of a rising deficit is what the Dems opposed. Frankly, that seemed the practical approach, but voters chose to burden our children's generation with even more debt.

Agreed tho, I'd like to know what percentage of GNP is service on the debt, and if it's significantly more or not. I just hate giving our kids a situation where a huge percentage of their assets are required to pay for wars, tax cuts or whatever- UN membership, even- that took place twenty, thirty years before they garnered any real political clout. It would be nice to give the next generation of leadership a clean slate to work with, or at least a less expensive burden of paying for our decisions.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: mietla on December 15, 2004, 10:44:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
I'd like to know what percentage of GNP is service on the debt, and if it's significantly more or not.



http://www.house.gov/budget/update090804r.pdf



(http://www.northoltwing.com/~mietla/budget2004.jpg)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Steve on December 15, 2004, 11:14:37 PM
Quote
I guess you're the true internet toughguy, Toughguy


nah, I'm just a guy.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Toad on December 15, 2004, 11:44:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
(which benefited the wealthiest BTW)  


Ok, let's get the obvious out of the way first.

If I pay 15% taxes on say $45,000 per year and you pay 28% taxes on $150,000 and we both get a roughly equal percentage tax cut, who will get the most dollars back?

Now we've got that clearly settled, I agree with you... partly.

The tax cuts might be a bit too large at this time, considering the war/security spending.

OTOH, using government spending to "prime the pump" also isn't a new tactic and was perhaps made most famous by Franklin D.

Suffice it to say, again, that nothing you see right now is new. All these economic tactics, charades and voodoo have been done before by Presidents of both parties.

The economy is, despite the crepe hangers, recovering somewhat. Without the tax cuts would it be better or worse?

Is it the best course? I don't know. They don't know. You don't know. Otherwise, we wouldn't keep going through these same cycles, would we?
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: oboe on December 15, 2004, 11:55:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Oboe, regardless of how different things are "now", it's pretty clear that over the last 40+ years the debt has gone up every single year.

One could point out that lots of things have been "quite different" over that period of time but the penchant of Congress to routinely spend more than the government takes in appears to be unchanging.


No arguing with those fact, Toad, that's for sure.   btw are those figures in today's dollars?    I'm just not sure if you are concluding that its OK for debt to continue to rise because of  this past history.

Consider the baby boomers aging and retiring.    This is a looming issue, and nothing like it is reflected in the 40 yr history of the ever increasing debt load.  

Or, consider the globalization of our economy.    Hasn't even been an issue for very many years, yet the job loss and wage depression due to its effects are beginning to be felt, and will only increase.   How can U.S. workers compete with people happy to work on 10% of what US workers get?

Consider who we owe the money to.   Odds are, it used to be US citizens and domestic corporations, and now we are in debt to foreigners.   Truthfully I'm not sure what the implications of loads of foreign debt are, but I'm not comfortable with it.    

What I'm suggesting is though we may have gotten away with it in the past, common sense tells me there is a wall somewhere out there, and we are speeding toward it.
Title: Re: Perspective
Post by: Holden McGroin on December 16, 2004, 01:16:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Anyone want to find a similar listing that shows the National Debt as a percentage of GNP? That would be interesting too.
[/B]


1930  16.6% of GDP
1931  20.1%
1932  28.9%
1933  39.3%
1934  44.2%
1935  41.2%
1936  43.0%
1937  41.5%
1938  41.8%
1939  45.4%
1940  52.5%
1941  50.5%
1942  54.9%
1943  79.2%
1944  97.6%
1945  117.5%
1946  121.6%
1947  109.5%
1948  98.2%
1949  93.0%
1950  93.9%
1951  79.5%
1952  74.3%
1953  71.3%
1954  71.6%
1955  69.4%
1956  63.8%
1957  60.4%
1958  60.7%
1959  58.5%
1960  55.9%
1961  55.1%
1962  53.3%
1963  51.7%
1964  49.2%
1965  46.8%
1966  43.4%
1967  41.9%
1968  42.4%
1969  38.5%
1970  37.6%
1971  37.7%
1972  37.0%
1973  35.5%
1974  33.6%
1975  34.8%
1976  36.2%
1977  35.8%
1978  33.1%
1980  33.3%
1981  32.5%
1982  35.2%
1983  39.9%
1984  40.7%
1985  43.9%
1986  48.2%
1987  50.4%
1988  51.9%
1989  53.0%
1990  55.9%
1991  60.7%
1992  64.3%
1993  66.3%
1994  66.8%
1995  67.2%
1996  67.3%
1997  65.6%
1998  63.4%
1999  61.5%
2000  57.3%
2001  54.5%
2002  52.2%

Looks like the Debt as a percentage of the GDP has been higher than it is now for much of the last 70 years.

graph (http://www.mindspring.com/~markwolff/gdp.jpg)
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: oboe on December 16, 2004, 07:07:15 AM
The statistical mean for your set of numbers is 55.16%.

I noticed your data set excludes 2003 and 2004, which no doubt would be higher than 2002.   But, I wouldn't be surprised if we are currently close to the historic average, perhaps a higher.

I don't take any comfort in this number.    If you can, find out how many workers were employed to support a single retiree's social security pension during since SS's beginning.  Then look at projections of how many workers will be working to support a retiree in the next 40 years.    With the baby boom retiring, the number of retirees will soar, while the number of workers has  decreased by millions in the last few years, as have their wages.
What do you think will happen to retiree's healthcare costs in the next 40 years?   Up or down?

With manufacturing jobs shipped to Asia and high paying service sector jobs being shipped to India, how many Walmart and McDonald's workers does it take to equal the SS contribution of a former manufacturing or service worker?  Probably 3 or 4.

This is what I'm concerned about for our future.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: lazs2 on December 16, 2004, 08:11:07 AM
in the 70's your social security extortion was only a certain amount per year... they only extorted so much per person and average wage earners would stop paying after about 10 or 11 months of every year.

I can't imagine that there is anyone who seriously expects to retire and live on SS benifiets.

lazs
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Toad on December 16, 2004, 08:42:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
btw are those figures in today's dollars?

It doesn't say that they are adjusted. However, you can still conclude that in any given short term period in that chart, the dollar values are very similar. Therefore, it's valid that it just keeps going up.

No, I don't think it's "OK", but like the sun rising tomorrow in the East, I also realize that it's going to happen despite my best efforts, wishes or desires.


   Consider the baby boomers aging and retiring...    
Or, consider the globalization of our economy. Consider who we owe the money to.
 

Consider this note that was at the bottom of the debt list I clipped:

Quote
NOTE 2: World War I increased the Debt by $25 Billion.

The Great Depression increased the Debt by $33 Billion and

World War II increased the Debt by $222 Billion. The

Clinton "peace time" years increased the Debt by $1,200 Billion.

I expect that the Geo. W. Bush years will be just as bad, except that Bush has the "War on Terrorism" to fund.

"It's the entitlements stupid!"
 

What I'm suggesting is though we may have gotten away with it in the past, common sense tells me there is a wall somewhere out there, and we are speeding toward it.

Maybe, but I'm sure that opinion was voiced several times by erudite scholars in the decades since Eisenhower.

I'm pretty sure of this. Unless there IS such a wall and unless we do hit it head on going 1000 mph, Congress will not change its ways. The spending will continue, the debt will rise.

Because "we the people" not only let them get away with it, we encourage them and we like the results.
Title: NOW I understand...
Post by: Toad on December 16, 2004, 08:49:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
The statistical mean for your set of numbers is 55.16%.
...I don't take any comfort in this number.  


Nor should you. But perhaps you should take no more discomfort from it than we all have over the last 40-50 years of deficit spending and National Indebtedness?

Looks pretty much like "business as usual".

As for the baby boomers, it's quite simple. Either SS taxes will go up dramatically or benefits/entitlements will go down dramatically (or a combination of both) UNLESS there's some incredible positive change in the economy.