Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on December 07, 2004, 01:13:57 PM
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Dutch man arrested over Saddam nerve gas deals
LINK (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1392610,00.html)
A Dutch Businessman accused of supplying Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons that were used to kill thousands of Kurdish civilians is due to be charged with war crimes this week more than a decade after he fled to Iraq.
Frans van Anraat, who lived in Baghdad as a fugitive for 13 years, was seized by Dutch police yesterday and is due to appear in court in Arnhem where he faces charges of complicity to commit genocide and breaking the laws of war.
"The man is suspected of delivering thousands of tons of raw materials for chemical weapons to the former regime in Baghdad between 1984 and 1988," Dutch prosecutors said in a statement.
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But but but.... I though we sold it to them?
Did he work for the CIA?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
But but but.... I though we sold it to them?
Did he work for the CIA?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-30-iraq-ushelp_x.htm
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The "Samples" we sent over were to be used for preventing illness on the Iraqi's from stuff that the Iranians could possibly use. Just like a common vaccine, all the samples were neutered, unable to be replicated, unable to replicate themselves and couldn't cause a single sneeze.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The "Samples" we sent over were to be used for preventing illness on the Iraqi's from stuff that the Iranians could possibly use. Just like a common vaccine, all the samples were neutered, unable to be replicated, unable to replicate themselves and couldn't cause a single sneeze.
Laser, ya beat me to it. Thanks for pointing this out.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The "Samples" we sent over were to be used for preventing illness on the Iraqi's from stuff that the Iranians could possibly use. Just like a common vaccine, all the samples were neutered, unable to be replicated, unable to replicate themselves and couldn't cause a single sneeze.
You should have just sent them a picture then. There is nothing in the article I posted that suggests that the samples were "neutered", and I don't think you can make an antidote, which is what your claiming, from the so called "neutered" sample unless its an antidote for nothing.
The point is samples were provided to who was then considered to be an "friend" of the US and who the US were supporting in thier (the Iraqis) war against Iran. Much like the US supported Mujuhadin in thier fight against the Russians, it's unfortunate that the Mujuhadin later to evolved into the Taliban and Al Queda.
I was just tyring to answer GtoRA2's question
Originally posted by GtoRA2
But but but.... I though we sold it to them?
:p
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No way!!!!
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Originally posted by Rude
No way!!!!
Way
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Originally posted by Ripper29
You should have just sent them a picture then. There is nothing in the article I posted that suggests that the samples were "neutered", and I don't think you can make an antidote, which is what your claiming, from the so called "neutered" sample unless its an antidote for nothing.
The point is samples were provided to who was then considered to be an "friend" of the US and who the US were supporting in thier (the Iraqis) war against Iran. Much like the US supported Mujuhadin in thier fight against the Russians, it's unfortunate that the Mujuhadin later to evolved into the Taliban and Al Queda.
I was just tyring to answer GtoRA2's question
Originally posted by GtoRA2
But but but.... I though we sold it to them?
:p
"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former U.N. biological weapons inspector.
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Originally posted by Krusher
"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former U.N. biological weapons inspector.
I am not disagreeing with you on that point, but the fact remains that they provided the Sadman with the samples.
Thats like me saying I did not deliberately impregnate that woman.....
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Originally posted by Ripper29
I am not disagreeing with you on that point, but the fact remains that they provided the Sadman with the samples.
Thats like me saying I did not deliberately impregnate that woman.....
Gas was used on the Kurds not bios. So pointing fingers at the CDC for an accident that led to nothing is what?
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Doubt we'll; see GScholtz, Staga, Maniac, et al ********s posting comments here. ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Doubt we'll; see GScholtz, Staga, Maniac, et al ********s posting comments here. ;)
you probably dont even see the irony of your post.
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Guilty your Honor...
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He must have been a dutch republican
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The "Samples" we sent over were to be used for preventing illness on the Iraqi's from stuff that the Iranians could possibly use. Just like a common vaccine, all the samples were neutered, unable to be replicated, unable to replicate themselves and couldn't cause a single sneeze.
Sorry, but this is just totally incorrect. Link (http://www.chronicillnet.org/PGWS/Tuite/CHAPTER1.HTM)
The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction.
Also, the US was fully aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons and on occasions even went as far as to provide intelligence to the Iraqis in the full knowledge that they would react with chemical attacks. I guess that would make the US complicit in the crimes this dutch guy is accused of?
I'd be interested to see how this guys case goes, given that in the 1980s every western government almost without exception was falling over itself to trade all kinds of crap with the Saddam regime. To see some of you guys trying to deny US involvement in this process 20 years after the fact is pretty laughable.
By the way, the biography of Saddam Hussein by the American-Arab writer Saíd K Arburish has MASSES of detail about who sold what to Saddam, and believe me, US corporations are well up there on the list, along with those from the UK, France and just about everyone else.
Carry on with your revisionist circle jerk now Rip ;)
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Originally posted by Momus--
Carry on with your revisionist circle jerk now Rip ;)
Partial quotes from a committe hearing that failed to find fault or any illegal activities is pretty telling.
Carry on with your revisionist history lesson.. I am not buying it.
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Originally posted by Krusher
Partial quotes from a committe hearing that failed to find fault or any illegal activities is pretty telling.
Carry on with your revisionist history lesson.. I am not buying it.
Whether the commitee found evidence of wrong-doing is irrelevant, the point was that bio material sold to Saddam wasn't "neutered" as per Lasersailor's assertion.
Nice try at muddying the waters though. If I am guilty of selective quoting, then please provide the reference from the same commitee that disproves my argument.
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Originally posted by Momus--
Whether the commitee found evidence of wrong-doing is irrelevant, the point was that bio material sold to Saddam wasn't "neutered" as per Lasersailor's assertion.
Nice try at muddying the waters though. If I am guilty of selective quoting, then please provide the reference from the same commitee that disproves my argument.
The terminoligy used does not prove your point. It is not CDC policy to send active cultures anywhere. "If" active cultures were sent it was done by accident.
quote:
"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former U.N. biological weapons inspector.
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Originally posted by Krusher
The terminoligy used does not prove your point. It is not CDC policy to send active cultures anywhere. "If" active cultures were sent it was done by accident.
quote:
"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former U.N. biological weapons inspector.
Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument is that all the US companies involved in this type of trade *accidentally* supplied live bio-cultures to Iraq in lieu of neutered ones. Is that correct? That's isn't what the Senate Commitee report says, unless you can point out the part that I've missed?
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Also, you missed out a bit from the Johnathan Tucker quote. The full quote reads:
"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former United Nations biological weapons inspector.
"But they did deliver samples that Iraq said had a legitimate public health purpose, which I think was naive to believe, even at the time."
Accident? Naive?
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I was under the impression we supplies tons of stuff among them anthrax to iraq in the 80s. But when I think about it, it sounds ridiculous the shipping of tons of bios and chemicals over there. So smaller started "seed" packages make sense.
I know we gave them WMD's I remember seein different politicians talk about it.
here is the link...
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/nation/4185241.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
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Originally posted by Momus--
Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument is that all the US companies involved in this type of trade *accidentally* supplied live bio-cultures to Iraq in lieu of neutered ones. Is that correct? That's isn't what the Senate Commitee report says, unless you can point out the part that I've missed?
First off it was the CDC a public health orginaization, and yes they used an American company as a supplier.
The accidental part was "possibly" sending live versions. It is not and has never been CDC policy to send active versions. So unless you see black helicopters, it was and accident.
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Originally posted by Momus--
Also, you missed out a bit from the Johnathan Tucker quote. The full quote reads:
quote:
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"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former United Nations biological weapons inspector.
"But they did deliver samples that Iraq said had a legitimate public health purpose, which I think was naive to believe, even at the time."
Accident? Naive?
accident or naive, it is still not willful.
Keep in mind this investigation was done by democrats trying to embarrass a Republican. If you have paid any attention to this board or the US news you would have noticed a trend that makes it difficult to believe they would sugar coat the results.
And again' gas killed kurds and possibly Iranians not Bios.
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Originally posted by Raider179
I was under the impression we supplies tons of stuff among them anthrax to iraq in the 80s. But when I think about it, it sounds ridiculous the shipping of tons of bios and chemicals over there. So smaller started "seed" packages make sense.
I know we gave them WMD's I remember seein different politicians talk about it.
here is the link...
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/nation/4185241.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
I dont do subscription sites.
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Originally posted by Krusher
First off it was the CDC a public health orginaization, and yes they used an American company as a supplier.
The accidental part was "possibly" sending live versions. It is not and has never been CDC policy to send active versions. So unless you see black helicopters, it was and accident.
They also got stuff from ATCC in the US, was it also a mistake that *they* supplied live strains and not the neutered ones? BTW, Iraq later admitted using these shipments to make bioweapons.
Keep in mind this investigation was done by democrats trying to embarrass a Republican.
Embarrass them how? By telling the truth?
And again' gas killed kurds and possibly Iranians not Bios.
Some of the US corporations implicated in Iraq's chemical weapon program in the same 1992 Senate Commitee report
ALCOLAC INTERNATIONAL, INC
POSI SEAL, INC.
PURE AIRE CORP.
SULLAIRE CORP.
There's other stuff too wrt chemical weapons but I'm not at home and can't check any written references right now.
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There's no question that the US was making friends with Iraq in the 1980s even after we knew they had used poison gas. Even if the US didn't directly assist Iraq in getting those weapons, we weren't too concerned about it and helped block UN action against Iraq.
This has to be viewed in the context of the time, when Iran and Iraq were viewed above all else as important squares in the US - USSR global chess game.
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Originally posted by Momus--
They also got stuff from ATCC in the US, was it also a mistake that *they* supplied live strains and not the neutered ones? BTW, Iraq later admitted using these shipments to make bioweapons.
Embarrass them how? By telling the truth?
Some of the US corporations implicated in Iraq's chemical weapon program in the same 1992 Senate Commitee report
ALCOLAC INTERNATIONAL, INC
POSI SEAL, INC.
PURE AIRE CORP.
SULLAIRE CORP.
There's other stuff too wrt chemical weapons but I'm not at home and can't check any written references right now.
Implicated in what?
And you you seem to ignore where the lions share of the tech came from?
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Momus, serious question, I want your perspective.
The Clinton administration supplied the Chinese with the technological information to make ICBM's and advanced rocketry. In your opinion, did we give China the capacity to deliver WMD more accurately?
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didnt realize it was...
Heres the story Philly paper
Iraq got germs for weapons program from U.S. in '80s
The CDC and a biological-sample firm sent strains of anthrax and more, government records show.
By Matt Kelley
Associated Press
WASHINGTON - The Iraqi bioweapons program that President Bush wants to eradicate got its start with help from Uncle Sam two decades ago, according to government records that are getting new scrutiny in light of the discussion of war against Iraq.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention sent samples directly to several Iraqi sites that U.N. weapons inspectors determined were part of Saddam Hussein's biological weapons program, CDC and congressional records from the early 1990s show. Iraq had ordered the samples, saying it needed them for legitimate medical research.
The CDC and a biological-sample company, the American Type Culture Collection, sent strains of all the germs Iraq used to make weapons, including anthrax, the bacteria that make botulinum toxin, and the germs that cause gas gangrene, the records show. Iraq also got samples of other deadly pathogens, including West Nile virus.
The transfers came in the 1980s, when the United States backed Iraq in its war against Iran. They were detailed in a 1994 Senate Banking Committee report and a 1995 follow-up letter from the CDC to the Senate.
The exports were legal at the time and approved under a program administered by the Commerce Department.
"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former U.N. biological weapons inspector. "But they did deliver samples that Iraq said had a legitimate public-health purpose, which I think was naive to believe, even at the time."
The disclosures put the United States in the position of possibly having provided key ingredients of the weapons it is considering waging war to destroy, said Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D., W.Va.), who entered the documents into the Congressional Record last month.
Byrd asked Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld about the germ transfers at a recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing. Byrd noted that Rumsfeld met Saddam Hussein in 1983, when Rumsfeld was President Ronald Reagan's Middle East envoy.
"Are we, in fact, now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown?" Byrd asked Rumsfeld after reading parts of a Newsweek article on the transfers.
"I have never heard anything like what you've read, I have no knowledge of it whatsoever, and I doubt it," Rumsfeld said. He later said he would ask the Defense Department and other agencies to search their records for evidence of the transfers.
Invoices included in the documents read like shopping lists for biological weapons programs. One 1986 shipment from the Virginia-based American Type Culture Collection included three strains of anthrax, six strains of the bacteria that make botulinum toxin, and three strains of the bacteria that cause gas gangrene. Iraq later admitted to the United Nations that it had made weapons out of all three.
The company sent the bacteria to the University of Baghdad, which U.N. inspectors concluded had been used as a front to acquire samples for Iraq's biological weapons program.
The CDC, meanwhile, sent shipments of germs to the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission and other agencies involved in Iraq's weapons-of-mass-destruction programs. It sent samples in 1986 of botulinum toxin and botulinum toxiod - used to make vaccines against botulinum toxin - directly to the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons complex at al-Muthanna, the records show.
Botulinum toxin is the paralyzing poison that causes botulism. Having a vaccine to the toxin would be useful for anyone working with it, Tucker said.
The CDC also sent samples of a strain of West Nile virus to a microbiologist at a university in Basra in 1985, records show.
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2002 Philadelphia Inquirer and wire service sources.