Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oboe on December 07, 2004, 07:20:24 PM
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Hamid Karzai, took an Oath of Allegiance to defend Islam last night before he was sworn in as President. I watched it myself and was surprised to see it.
Defending Islam will be his highest duty, more important than defending the country. I have to assume it indicates that Islamic religious leaders will be pulling the strings of government power.
I also read somewhere that Karzai considers fighting the opium drug cartels more important than finding Osama Bin Laden. I hate to see OSB free and unpursued. He must be laughing his prettythang off at us.
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Originally posted by oboe
Hamid Karzai, took an Oath of Allegiance to defend Islam last night before he was sworn in as President. I watched it myself and was surprised to see it.
Our presidents make an oath to God, so whats different?
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It wasn't an oath to God - it was a pledge to defend Islam.
An odd thing for a head of state to swear to, in my mind.
We don't make our Presidents swear to uphold Christianity. Not sure of the words to our oath, but I imagine it goes something along the lines of swearing to uphold the Constitution, so help him God. Something like that, right?
Very different than what Karzai swore to, and not only that, it was a distinctly separate oath from the oath to office. I was looking on google from the text of the oath of Alligience to Islam but no one carried it to that detail.
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Our presidents make an oath to God, so whats different?
not really
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as long as the pipeline goes thru his territory(country) he can do whatever he wants...
and who is this OBL guy:p
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Must be great being the president of Kabul
Tronsky
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Check the vote tallies again, Trots.
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Yes Lizking but I'm sure we both know that the UN forces only control the 8 provinces surrounding Kabul. However they will be trying to expand that shortly by sending forces into the outlying provinces.
I have great hope for this process, though it will be very dangerous.
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So did the vote cover the country or was it Kabul?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Our presidents make an oath to God, so whats different?
Jeezy's right..
Art 2 section 1"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
The "So help me God" is not consitutionally mandated, it is added optionally. Truman ended his oath with, "And thus I swear."
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One thing you will never see in your lifetime is Osama Bin Laden speaking in public.
He is destined to spend the rest of his life in a serious state of hiding, however long that is.
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President Bush says God told him to invade Iraq. Someone please hand him a biology textbook...
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Do you have a link to that statement?
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No, I remember watching him say it, perhaps during one of the debates. He talked about praying to God and then saying that God told him to invade.
George Bush is a born again Christian. Are you surprised he said that?
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..President Bush had told him this: " God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam [ Hussein], which I did..
Originally reported in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, repeated here in the Washinton Post: link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37944-2003Jun26?language=printer)
It wasn't an oath to God - it was a pledge to defend Islam. An odd thing for a head of state to swear to, in my mind.
Why? The country's full name is "The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan". The government is supposed to be Islamic in nature. They don't enjoy the nominal separation of church and state the US enjoys.
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Originally posted by oboe
I also read somewhere that Karzai considers fighting the opium drug cartels more important than finding Osama Bin Laden. I hate to see OSB free and unpursued. He must be laughing his prettythang off at us.
Afghanistan is again the #1 producer of raw opium in the world and it is also the #1 generator of funds for the outlawed Taliban and some other renegade warlords like the one that allied himself with the Taliban. Cut that off and you cut off a major source of funds for the Taliban and the various renegade warlords.
Personally, it seems like the leaders of this country have given up on trying to find bin Laden, why else would we start to reduce the numbers we have in Afghanistan? If we haven't gotten into that B.S. that was the Iraq War and instead concentrated on the real threat and used the resources we wasted on Iraq for Afghanistan things might have been different.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by SunTracker
No, I remember watching him say it, perhaps during one of the debates. He talked about praying to God and then saying that God told him to invade.
George Bush is a born again Christian. Are you surprised he said that?
You remember watching him say that, but according to my search, it is what Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said that Bush told him in a private interview.
Either your memory is hazy, or sorry for questioning you Mr. Prime Minister.
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Or, Choice C: He made the statement again at a televised interview.
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Got a source for that? My search brought up nothing of the sort.
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First hand account as told by author.
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I would have though that a clip of him saying that would have been played ad infinitum by Move-On during the campaign... Or in Moore's 9-11... guess they missed it.
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You dont have to be a genius to tell that Bushy is christian fanatic.
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He's just a little more politically astute that many give him credit for.
I'm sure he remembers the flak that Hillary got for imagining conversations with Eleanor Roosevelt. Her's was a fairly innocent statement that got blown way out of proportion. Had Bush made such a statement on camera the press would have followed suit and we would never have heard the end of it.
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Hillary was never a president, George is.
I don't mind at all that George is a Christian, but the mixing of politics and religion is not a good thing.
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They are both in the political arena, the parallel applies.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--"
The mixing of religion and politics happens whether we like it or not, as both are mirrors of society. We just need the wisdom to understand that we should allow each other to believe the way we believe. That the civil rules we adopt do not stomp our respective beliefs.
Even though I am agnostic I can still respect the Pope's thoughts.
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Im also an agnostic and I can even accept that we have a priest as a PM. My problem with George in this matter is that he uses his religion activly in his career as a president and uses it as a political tool.
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I doubt Bondevik leaves his beliefs at the office door.
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He does actually. He never mentions his belives or talks about god at all when doing his job.
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Perhaps he would be more declarative of his beliefs if he were trying to get Baptists from Alabama to support him.
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lol maybe :D
The conservative christian partys most extreme view is that they are against abortion, and there is even some debate about that within their own ranks so you can just imagine how liberal that party really is.
When we are used to very liberal christians then you can just imagine how shocked we get over here when we listen to the rather extreme (for us) american christian "preaching".
-edit- oh, and we have our very own "bible belt" down south were the christians are very hardcore :D
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Originally posted by Momus--
Why? The country's full name is "The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan". The government is supposed to be Islamic in nature. They don't enjoy the nominal separation of church and state the US enjoys.
If you are correct about this, then I'm afraid history is doomed to repeat itself. All the money we spent invading Afghanistan and toppling the Taliban regime will have been wasted. Not saying it'll occur immediately, but the fundamental change that was needed (separation of church and state) appears to be missing.
I just wish Bush would follow through on his promise to find Osama and bring him to justice. I wouldn't be surprised if OBL is already something of an Islamic folk hero, and I'm sure that any head of state whose primary duty is to defend and protect Islam will find many other projects to occupy his time rather than find OBL.
I agree with Ack-Ack, the US has all but given up on finding him. One of the most egregious flip-flops GWB made, IMO.
No doubt fighting the opium drug cartels is important from our point of view, however I wouldn't be surprised if Karzai starts waging a long, halfhearted and ineffective battle against them, since their profits support radical Islam.
From my point of view, Afghanistan now looks like a total bust.
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Originally posted by Yeager
One thing you will never see in your lifetime is Osama Bin Laden speaking in public.
Are you kidding??..
After this "Terrorism" thing all blows over,he'll be on tour in the US promoting he's own book(George and Me)...be busy securing the rights to a major motion picture(Osama Yo' Mama)...be sharing an objective conversation with Phil Donahue on live TV...be recording an Islamic/Rap CD(with Mike Tyson)...become a dastardly manager for professional wrestling...having his own "Islamic"s Court" TV show where Islamic sentences are graphically carried out...
Prolly end up dukin it out with GWB in "Celebrity Boxing" on PPV and ol' George boy givin him a whoopin..and pile drivin OSB neck first into the mat...OSB is carried out in a stretcher.
A rematch is born!($75 PPV)
This post brought to you by Coke..."Open a Can of Coke,Unleash a can of Whoopass!"...GWB(Smirky/Smile Pix)
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You need to distinguish between various manifestations of Islam Oboe. They are NOT all like the militant Wahabi/Deobandi/Safalist strains that were characteristic of the Taliban and groups like Al-qaeda and Islamic Jihad and largely foreign to central asia. The native form of Islam in Afghanistan is a mild type related to the Sufi branch of the religion.
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Originally posted by oboe
... Not saying it'll occur immediately, but the fundamental change that was needed (separation of church and state) appears to be missing.
The head of state in the UK has in her title "By the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her Other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith."
So much for seperation. The UK and it's commonweath are doomed.
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I hope you are right Momus. Although I have to wonder if Afghanistan is home to such a mild strain of Islam, how did the Taliban arise to such power in the first place?
I also wonder if there are any safeguards in the new arrangement to prevent it from happening again over a period of time.
What's certain is our money has been borrowed and spent, our soldiers have fought; some have died. And yet OBL is free, and the democracy we have installed in Afghanistan lacks one of the most basic tenets of our system - a separation of powers of church and state.
(Although I noted your use of the term "nominal separation" and give you a nod of understanding in light of the current US administration).
EDIT:
Holden - point taken, but which Faith?
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Although I have to wonder if Afghanistan is home to such a mild strain of Islam, how did the Taliban arise to such power in the first place?
In a nutshell, the Taliban was largely created by the ISI (Pakistani Military Intelligence), using resources provided to it by the US and Saudi regimes during the fight against the pro-Russian regime during the late 1970s and 1980s.
Some of the original Taliban fighters were Pakistani nationals. Many of the later members were students (Taliban literally means "Students") from the Saudi-funded fundamentalist schools or medressas that were founded to house Afghan refugees in Pakistan.
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Damn Saudi's keep comin up on to hit list...I wonder why?
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You dont have to be a genius to tell that Bushy is christian fanatic.
You do have to be a genius, however, to understand how adeptly Bush manipulates that perception of him for political power. Is it "harmful" to the body politic? probably, but it is in no way original, nor is it any more "harmful" than milking a perception of being non-religious.
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Originally posted by oboe
It wasn't an oath to God - it was a pledge to defend Islam.
An odd thing for a head of state to swear to, in my mind.
We don't make our Presidents swear to uphold Christianity. Not sure of the words to our oath, but I imagine it goes something along the lines of swearing to uphold the Constitution, so help him God. Something like that, right?
Very different than what Karzai swore to, and not only that, it was a distinctly separate oath from the oath to office. I was looking on google from the text of the oath of Alligience to Islam but no one carried it to that detail.
I believe their constitution *is* Allah and Islam. So help them, God. ;)
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Originally posted by jEEZY
You do have to be a genius
thank you :)
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You origionaly said
"I also read somewhere that Karzai considers fighting the opium drug cartels more important than finding Osama Bin Laden. I hate to see OSB free and unpursued. He must be laughing his prettythang off at us."
I hope he does tackle the drug trade. I work with young people and I have seen the horror that Heroin can cause first hand. It wrecks many many lives. It is the biggest weapon and the most insidious form of attack on our society of all. Far worse than the occasional terrorist attack as it is long term and destroys the fabric of our society.
Sorry but I think fighting thwe drug trade is a much higher priority than Osama.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Our presidents make an oath to God, so whats different?
Article 6
Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
No, I remember watching him say it, perhaps during one of the debates. He talked about praying to God and then saying that God told him to invade.
George Bush is a born again Christian. Are you surprised he said that?
Totally untrue.....nice spin.
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Sorry but I think fighting thwe drug trade is a much higher priority than Osama.
I would have to disagree with this. The use of drugs is an act of choice but the attack by terrorist is not..
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Originally posted by Tinpot
Sorry but I think fighting thwe drug trade is a much higher priority than Osama.
That was what the Bush admin was thinking when they gave the Taliban millions to reward them for their drug war success while still harboring Osama prior to 9/11.
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Originally posted by Tinpot
Sorry but I think fighting the drug trade is a much higher priority than Osama.
No apology necessary, Tinpot. As I understand it the drug cartels in Afghanistan are another U.S. caused problem, in that the Taliban had them crushed but they sprung up again after U.S. forces ousted their regime. I agree drugs are an insidious problem, and the cartels need to be wiped out.
But I would like Mr George Bush to stand up and do what he originally said he was going to do, which was capture Osama Bin Laden and bring him to justice. I don't see why both goals can't be accomplished, except that it appears the U.S. has just given up on it. How sad that we let a madman like that commit such a horrendous attack and then just let him get away.
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If you define "Cartel" as a bunch of broke-dick farmers trying to survive, then yes, the "cartels" are back in business. If we were allowed to shoot and kill drug dealers on sight, we too could eliminate the scourge of drugs, jst like the Taliban.
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How much of the opium is goes to legal buyers ? Seriously, I don't know.
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None.
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Originally posted by Lizking
None.
Cant be true. Some countries do not wage war on drugs much less a fake war on drugs..
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legalize it and let our farmers make that money.
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Originally posted by Lizking
So did the vote cover the country or was it Kabul?
The whole country. Be Canada could elect someone to be President of the US and it wouldn't mean squat because we couldn't inforce it. The Afghani government taking control of the entire country is an ongoing process.
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1. The quote by bush about god telling him to invade is true. (he has never denied saying it but you can find it on net)
2. It is not the same as the president swearing to god. It would be more along the lines of I sweat to defend christianity or whatever religion.
3. The opium that is used by all the "evil" warlords to generate funds for the "taliban",. you know who else grows poppy over there. Our "allied warlords" if you take their money away they are not gonna help us if what you call what they do help.
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Originally posted by oboe
. All the money we spent invading Afghanistan and toppling the Taliban regime will have been wasted. .
I just wish Bush would follow through on his promise to find Osama and bring him to justice.
No doubt fighting the opium drug cartels is important from our point of view, however I wouldn't be surprised if Karzai starts waging a long, halfhearted and ineffective battle against them, since their profits support radical Islam.
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Relax, oboe. Politicians lie all the time. Especially US appointed ones. Theres oil in them thar hills.
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Originally posted by Raider179
1. The quote by bush about god telling him to invade is true. (he has never denied saying it but you can find it on net)
I looked for quite some time. I was unsuccessful in finding this true statement. Perhaps you could provide us with a link.
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Cant get the whole article without subsribing I think but here is the link
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/352330421.html?did=352330421&FMT=ABS&FMTS=FT&date=Jun+27%2C+2003&author=Al+Kamen&desc=Road+Map+in+the+Back+Seat%3F
here is another link to the rest of the colum but unsure of its accuracy but seems correct.
http://www.unknownnews.net/insanity7.html
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Your link refers to what Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Abu Mazen says Bush told him.
Generally, hearsay is not accepted as proof.
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Holden, after you get done looking for links and if you have time, will you look at my question in the 55years thread and tell me if you know any of it?
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Dude, generally those accused of felonies have a jury trial unless the accused requests a trial by judge. Mandatory sentances take away descretion of the penalty from judges and juries.
I don't know why you should request this of me in this thread, my point throughout this thread is that the statement attributed to Bush is accepted as fact by many without proof.
Had Bush said it on tape, within earshot of witnesses, or repeated it to others, it would have been covered much more thoroughly, but as far as I can ascertain, only one person says that GWB ever said it, without corroboration.
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I have never seen a statement from the white house or anything else where Bush said it is not true. I have on the other hand seen it on the cover of numerous books about his presidency though.
oh and FYI I dont require the same "proof" as a court of law.
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How many times does hearsay need to be repeated before it becomes irrefutable? Is there a hard and fast rule?
If Bush denies it, does it become false?
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Holden it only becomes hearsay if Bush denies it. To my knowledge he has not.
If he denied it then the matter would be up for debate. But as he has not, the quote is seen as fact.
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It is not a quote.
It does not have to be denied to remain uncorroberated.
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If it were not true someone on the bush team would speak up. thats all the proof I need.
Corrobboration? lmao who needs that. This article ran in the washington Post and no retraction was ever issued. I am sure if you search through newspapers you will find it pretty much made all of them(the major ones) at one point.
maybe he didnt say it and he thinks it was something he should have said so he never discounted it. Or maybe it was similar enough to what he said. Sounds like bush to me. Am I sure? maybe lol
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Originally posted by Raider179
If it were not true someone on the bush team would speak up. thats all the proof I need.
I hope your never called to jury duty.
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I didnt realize this was a trial? are you sure it is??? lol
just for the record if I ever do go serve on a jury be sure I would take it with the utmost sense of respect and fairness. I would also would expect the defendant to deny the charges.
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No need to have a sense of respect or fairness elsewhere.
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ok forget it now. you are just attacking me personally.
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I held up a mirror to your statement. Take it how you like, however it was not a personal attack.
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Man, they probably let guys that think that way on juries all the time. Scary.