Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Creamo on December 09, 2004, 11:24:00 AM
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To kill coyotes and varmints. No fancy gold plating, flash suppressors, folding stocks, 40 round clips, bayonets, or whatever will impress someone next to you at the range. I just want to plink mostly, and hunt once in awhile. The Ruger mini14 a good buy?
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Depends on what you want and what you can spend. A good varmint rifle like a Mini-14, or an Olympic Arms PCR-1 (M16 variant) will do the job pretty well. While I HATE any variant of the M16, they are accurate out to 300 or so yards against varmints. Just be prepared for a long night of cleaning; direct-gas operation blows a lot of crud into the mechanism. The Mini-14 is a fine little rifle, but the iron sights on it I'm not impressed with. YMMV. It is a definite step above any M16 knock-off from a cleaning and reliability stand-point, though.
For a bolt-action varmint gun, you've got a lot of choices. Remington, Winchester, Browning, Weatherby, Savage and a few others make mi-te-fine bolt guns for nailing varmints. My neighbor goes out several times a year with his Weatherby Vanguard in .257 Wby Mag to bag ground squirrels in eastern Washington. It isn't a real fancy or expensive gun: the stock is ugly as sin, the scope is a real cheap 6x Burris, but he has a lot of fun! A real kick-in-the-pants gun is a T&C Encore pistol chambered in .223 Rem. At $550 retail you can't go wrong, but it is single shot and really needs optics. The fun part is you can swap out barrels to suit whatever it is you're hunting. You can go from .223 for varmints to 30-06 for deer and up to .44 Mag for anything else. Replacement barrels are around $200, and drop in after tapping out the hinge pin.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/veggie.gif)
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.270 WSM 8)
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Barret Model 82 .50 cal.
Imagine with a .223 . Once you kill them, you have to go out there and clean them up. .50's vaporize those critters.
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Originally posted by Creamo
To kill coyotes and varmints. No fancy gold plating, flash suppressors, folding stocks, 40 round clips, bayonets, or whatever will impress someone next to you at the range. I just want to plink mostly, and hunt once in awhile. The Ruger mini14 a good buy?
The ruger mini-14 is wildly inaccurate at 100 yards, unless it's been taken in hand by a good gunsmith. I get 4" groups from mine, and it's the best one I have owned to date (I have had three).
Get yourself a Savage bolt gun. They make a very affordable .223 varminter, priced around $500, with a new adjustable trigger (that used to be savage's drawback). Remington and Winchester models are a bit more. According to Gun Tests, the Savage is the most accurate.
If you really, really must have a semi-auto, buy a new Ruger Mini-14 ranch rifle, (about $500), and send it off to Accuracy International (somewhere in texas). They replace the barrel, and guarantee 1" accuracy at 100 yds. That will cost about $1000, if i recall correctly.
shubie
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Barret Model 82 .50 cal.
Imagine with a .223 . Once you kill them, you have to go out there and clean them up. .50's vaporize those critters.
Exactly what I was thinking =)
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I wouldn't get a mini-14. It is inherently inaccurate due to the reliable but "sloppy" mechanism. I have a nice mini-14 and after spending 6 months working on the rifle and testing various types of ammunition, I managed a 4 inch 5-round group at 100 yards.
By comparison, my 7mm rem mag (browning a-bolt with BOSS accurizing and anti-recoil system) shoots a 1 inch 5-round group at 200 yards.
A 22-250 shoots flat and accurate, and a nice 270 would also work well. My brother picked up a bolt action 30.06 for a few hundred bucks and it shoots ok, but it's a little abusive on the shoulder for casual varminting.
The 7mm I have would explode a rabbit and pretty much mangle a coyote, but with the right ammunition (lightweight with composite tip and boat tail) it would be accurate enough to hit a coyote out to or beyond 500 yards depending on conditions and the quality of the rifle. Use heavy game ammunition and the same rifle can take an elk. I got this rifle because I wanted one rifle that could take anything I had any desire to hunt. I don't want to hunt bear and I have no desire to pack a moose out of the woods even though a well placed shot will take down a moose too, but it's perfect for almost everything else and since there's only a 4-6 inch or so drop at 300 yards, hitting what I aim at isn't much of a problem. If I sight it in at 200 yards, I can shoot out to almost 500 yards and the bullet will be within 6 or so inches of aimpoint, plenty accurate for a kill without much aimpoint guesswork.
One of the 22 magnum rounds would be cheaper and there are tons of varmint hunters buying up accurizing kits so you might be able to find a nice hopped up 22 magnum (hornet?) that would take coyote out to a few hundred yards without trouble. My Dad has a 22-250 and it's quite nice. Imagine a .223 round, but with an additional 1000 fps :)
For cheap varminting fun, even a ruger 10-22 can be accurized. My 10-22 will shoot 3 inch groups at 100 yards bone stock. Adding a bull barrel and a trigger kit would cut that in half, making it perfect for rabbit and ground squirrel. It'll take a coyote if you hit it in the right spot, but I don't think I'd want to risk a non-fatal shot so I'd use .223 or some other magnum .22 for coyote or larger. .223 is also good for deer if you can place the shots, but again you risk the animal running off and slowly dying somewhere else if your shot isn't placed right, and that's just not cool.
Just don't get a mini-14 and expect to hit anything with it. It would work up close against a coyote and they're reliable and easy to carry, but it's really not a good varminter and I haven't talked to a single gunsmith who said they can be accurized worth a damn.
My brother has a long/heavy barrel variant of the olympic arms AR, (M-16) and it's very accurate for a .223. I'd trade my mini-14 ranch rifle for one except that the olympic arms rifles are very expensive due to the idiotic bans the weapon has faced because it looks scary. My mini-14 cost $350 and so far it's eaten 2 scopes due to the abuse the heavy bolt dishes out; My brother's AR is currently running around $1800 and faces state-specific export/resale restrictions. It's a bear to carry for long distances because of the heavy barrel but it points easily and hits right where you aim. Right after finishing Army boot camp, I saw my brother pick off 2 running jackrabbits at 75 yards with that thing. Just point, shoot, and mr rabbit exploded in a puff of fur and bloody goo, just like in the video games :)
edit - for the price of the accurized mini-14 shubie mentioned, you can get a nice AR-15 variant. Another drawback of the AR however is that every damn federal agent, whether it's FBI, BLM, or the girl scouts auxiliary, will try to confiscate the damn thing on sight. The mere sight of it invokes instant fear and hatred by the anti gun freaks and the fed jackboots. A stupid BLM guy tried to confiscate 4 weapons from me, my 2 brothers, my dad (while he was an active CHP officer no less), and a friend. This idiot was out in the middle of the california desert when he came across our little group. We had valid id (my dad had his badge too) and valid CA hunting licenses, and every gun was 100% legal, but this jackprettythang tried to take our guns. He must have had a deathwish because if we were "that type", he'd have been buried on the spot and nobody would ever have known where he went. As it was, he knew he was wrong and was lucky to be alive about 5 minutes into the encounter, but he wouldn't back down and called in our names and the serial numbers for an AR sporter, a mini-14, my dad's CHP issued service pistol, and my brother's olympic AR. His office told him to not be stupid, and he let us go. If we hadn't been about the most honest citizens on the planet, that idiot would have disappeared so we still have no idea what possessed him to hassle us. If we were the type of people that deserved law enforcement action, he would have died on the spot. Since we didn't jump him, there could be no possible reason for him to hassle us, but he still did.
So the moral of the story is if you get anything that looks like an M-16 or other assault weapon, expect to get hassled.
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stay away from the mini14
For coyotes get a nice bolt action with a scope in a light to medium caliber.
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For purely plinking/varminting at ranges no greater than 100yds, a Ruger 10/22 is a perfect rifle. Even a stock factory 10/22 will shoot less than 2" groups at 100yds. If you want more range/hitting power, an AR15 type of rifle is a better choice. Of course, an AR15 will more than double the cost of a 10/22.
The Mini-14 is a great plinking rifle, but has a definite accuracy problem. The problem with the Mini-14 is not the action, but the light short barrel. Vibrations that travel down the barrel with the round cause alot of variation in impact point at ranges over 75yds. A 4-5in. group at 100yds is about as good as a factory Mini-14 will get. The only real way to improve the accuracy of the Mini-14 is a barrel replacment (http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/mini_14_30_accessories.html) or a Harmonic Stabilizer (http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/ruger_mini_14_30.html). Both are rather expensive modifications to the Mini-14.
An SKS is a pretty good plinker also. It shoots the 7.62x39mm round. You can find pretty good setups for the SKS for around $200-$250.
Terror
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Originally posted by eagl
So the moral of the story is if you get anything that looks like an M-16 or other assault weapon, expect to get hassled.
Well, maybe if you live in the People's Republic of California. Here in flyover country, the state troopers, Fish and Wildlife, and local cops all shoot at the same range with us militia wannabes. One of my buddies, a police lieutenant in Arkansas, told me that the only way he would confiscate a gun is if he wanted it for himself!
We have machine gun shoots here on a monthly basis. Evil black guns with real full auto capability!
shubie
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I have a russian SKS and can hit a rabbit sized target quite a ways out. Never thought of it as a varmint gun.. but I guess it would work pretty darned good.
Definite Pros:
The gun is inexpensive(get the russian version as opposed to Chinese)
Ammo is very cheap and reliable.
Definite Cons:
Unless you have a composite stock(mine has the original wooden stock) it is rather heavy.
some say it is not a particularly accurate rifle. Compared to a precision hunting rifle that may be the case but I think it will suit your needs nicely.
I have open sights on mine... I wonder if there are good optics options.... wish Lazs or someone knowledgeable would chip in.
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Originally posted by Steve
some say it is not a particularly accurate rifle. Compared to a precision hunting rifle that may be the case but I think it will suit your needs nicely.
I have open sights on mine... I wonder if there are good optics options.... wish Lazs or someone knowledgeable would chip in. [/B}
A SKS Rifle Accessories (http://www.rifletech.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl/page=sks4.html) page.
Terror
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Cool Terror, thanks.
Which scope mount is the easiest to add?
On the linked page, the number 14 looks like something I want, I think.
What's a peep site system?
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I have a Russian SKS too. I like it a lot and it seems pretty accurate to me.
Like Steve said, it's a very inexpensive gun.
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Originally posted by Steve
I have a russian SKS and can hit a rabbit sized target quite a ways out. Never thought of it as a varmint gun.. but I guess it would work pretty darned good.
Definite Pros:
The gun is inexpensive(get the russian version as opposed to Chinese)
Ammo is very cheap and reliable.
Definite Cons:
Unless you have a composite stock(mine has the original wooden stock) it is rather heavy.
some say it is not a particularly accurate rifle. Compared to a precision hunting rifle that may be the case but I think it will suit your needs nicely.
I have open sights on mine... I wonder if there are good optics options.... wish Lazs or someone knowledgeable would chip in.
Steve,
there are options for scoping an SKS. most of the mounts use a new receiver cover that is bolted in place, and has some sort of tensioning system to keep it jammed in place against the receiver. They work ok, but not great. I have a B-square model on one of my SKSs.
Choate makes a good, light plastic stock for the SKS. I have one, no complaints. TAPCO (http://www.tapco.com) offers a really good,wide assortment of accessories for your SKS (this is not a paid advertisement).
shubie
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everyone here is right. depends on what you want... what rantges etc. If you never shoot at anything farther than 75 or 100 yards and smaller than a coyote... the mini 14 is great plus.. it is a good light carbine and stainless steel and uterly reliable and... can be pretty effective for self defense..
If more range is needed and you don't care about recoil.... a lot of surplus military bolt actions will all group an easy 3" at 100 yards and ammo is relatively cjheap.
If you want the most accurate new gun that you can get for the money in your choice of calibers... the savage is probly the best bet you can even get it with a scope allready mounted.. depends on what you want.
The savag, mini 14 and surplus rifles are all great values that you can knock around without feeling guilty... they all have their pluss's and mionus's tho. Why not get all three?
lazs
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I would suggest the Winchester model 94....comes in either .357 or 30-30...runs around $400.00.
It was my first deer rifle....very accurate for no scope and a shorter barrelled rifle.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Imagine with a .223 . Once you kill them, you have to go out there and clean them up.
thats a buzzard's job. yanno they need to eat too.
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There are lots of old mausers out there that can be had for cheap. I have a 1943 Turkish mauser that shoots 2" groups at 100yards with open sights. I paid $80 for the rifle. Ammo can be had for around $.06 per round for the surplus stuff.
Turk Mauser (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Turkish_Model_1938_Mauser_Rifle_Package.html)
Also I have a Yugo SKS. It is made with the same equipment that the russians used. They are just as accurate and reliable, but much cheaper. They also come with attached Grenade Launcher and bayonet.
SKS M59/66 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/SKS_Yugo__Yugoslavian_M59_66_SKS_7_62x39_Rifle.html)
Or without the Launcher for those in Cali
SKS M59 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Yugoslavian_Model_59_SKS_Preorder.html)
RHIN0
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I've always been partial to a simple bolt action .30-06 with 50gr 'accelerators'.
you can buy the sabots at any gun show and load your own, they haven't let you buy factory accelerators for about 20 yrs though.
IIRC the factory loads claimed somewhere in the 3,400 fps neighborhood.
they shot very flat. I've used them regularly out to 275yds and they were always very accurate.
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A gun thread without any gun pictures.
That sucks.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
I've always been partial to a simple bolt action .30-06 with 50gr 'accelerators'.
you can buy the sabots at any gun show and load your own, they haven't let you buy factory accelerators for about 20 yrs though.
IIRC the factory loads claimed somewhere in the 3,400 fps neighborhood.
they shot very flat. I've used them regularly out to 275yds and they were always very accurate.
got my hands on a box of .30-06 accelerators, those things are awesome. .22 cal. around 6000 fps. I was target shooting, loaded a bolt action savage with scope. sat down on a bench rest, aimed, pulled the trigger, heard the click of the hammer fall, seen a hole appear in the target, target fluttered, heard the loudest bang I've ever heard out of a gun of any kind(more like an explosion), then it kicked.
sighted in right, it'll be kind of hard to miss using them. by the time ya hear the hammer click, the bullet has left the barrel.< it seems anyway.
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Well, it's overkill, but the Springfield Armory Super National Match M1A with the 1 in 10 rh twist would be the way to kill anything out at 300 yards or more. :D
Of course, you could get the standard field grade and still have an excellant weapon for a lot less.
If budget and time aren't an issue, have the Fulton Armory custom build ya one, the peerless shoots sub 1" MOA at 100 yrds.
Of course, the 7.62x51 round is a tad strong for varmits, but it will do the job and be ready for anything bigger. :aok
dago
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If you're thinking bolt-action. There are a lot of good ones out there, but one of the best is the Weatherby Vanguard. They are made in Japan by Howa and you can get them at Wally-Mart. I own an older model that came in .338 Win Mag and I rebarreled in it .257 Wby. I have been really impressed with the fit and finish of this rifle. It comes with a duel locking log bolt and an M-16 style extracter.
(http://www.weatherby.com/images/vanguard/vguard_cutaway.gif)
I have bought new Winchester M70 Classics and know people who have bought new Remingtons, Dakotas and Kimbers. The Remingtons break extracters. One load of Kimbers would release the firing pin if you slammed the bolt home too hard. And a new .375 H&H Mag M70 Classic Safari that I bought was built so crooked, the barrel wouldn't line up with the receiver. You couldn't get the reticle far enough over to one side to get the crosshairs on the point of impact. And Brownings just aren't made that well.
Sure, some people get tack-drivers out of the box, but it's a crapshoot with modern CinC manufacturing.
The other idea would be to look around some gunshops and look for a pre-64 Model 70. Or, believe it or not, look for a Sears JC Higgens. In the 50's and 60's Mauser made rifles, with the best of all time-Mauser action, for Sears. Sears sold them as JC Higgins rifles. They aren't the prettiest, but are usually very good shooters. In fact, because new rifles aren't always the best, many people are searching for pre-64 Model 70's and JC Higgins actions to turn them into custom guns.
Ruger seems to be making some nice shooting rifles, although they can be a little shakey in the finish department. But, you'll be paying 3 to 400 bones more than you would for the Vanguard.
And for 'yotes, you'll be wanting a .25 caliber that shoots flat. Such as the .257 Wby, .25-06 or .264 Win Mag.
And for any of you who are interested in hunting, reloading or rifles in general, please check out this site: http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php
I can't recommend it enough.
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See, lazs says I was right.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I have a Russian SKS too. I like it a lot and it seems pretty accurate to me.
Like Steve said, it's a very inexpensive gun.
SKS can be very accurate. I hit 27 points (3 rounds at 50 meters = little over 50 yards without any scope, just regular sights) when serving in the Soviet army in 1980. And I know that the price is very reasonable. The only thing that can be considered as a drawback is the recoil which is a litttle harder than you may expect. And I also don't know if they have now folding butt for it.
And if you really want to impress people, consider made in Russia VEPR (Kalashnikov mechanism from RPK adapted for the accurate hunting rifle). It has several modifications with different barrel length, calibre of rounds, clip capasity. And you can get it in the folding variant. The price range (a month ago when I checked it on the Internet) was $600-$650 for the basic model without the scope. I think this is the best buy on the market right now.
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(http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/images2/barrettm82.gif)
:D
http://www.barrettrifles.com/
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Imagine with a .223 . Once you kill them, you have to go out there and clean them up. .50's vaporize those critters.
Trouble is, a .50 rifle is 20+ pounds and you can't do any light hunting with it. Unless all you want is hamburger.
What Dune said is prolly the best advice. A .257 Wby Mag is more than enough to take any varmint, plus you can go after game as big as deer with it. Vanguards are known to be accurate out of the box, and run around $480 retail. Top it with a nice little scope and you've got a rifle fit for game anywhere between rock chucks and deer. The best part is Weatherby won't sell a Vanguard that doesn't group at least 1.5-inch at 100 yds. Most shoot MUCH tighter groups than that. Bushnell makes a few nice scopes that won't bust your wallet up and can take a pounding. For top-notch optics, with a price to match, go Leupold.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/lie.gif)
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I have a SigSauer SHR-970 .30-06 with a Redfield 5 Star Scope. 1.5" groups of 3 at 100 yards.
Karaya
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SKS
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JAAK 5 (http://www.asetekno.fi/Valokuvat/JAAK%205%20urheilu.gif). One in link has some wooden parts but proto I was looking was full steel/aluminium. Can be manufactured in any cal you like with or without silencer.
If you really want people rub themself against your gun this is the real nut magnet. Mr Black would get an eternal woodie if he could get his hands in that.
Same gunsmith manufacturers "Black Cats (http://www.asetekno.fi/cat3.gif)", quite similar rifle but in cal 9mm para.
Weight 2,8kg, lenght less than 1 meter, price including 3-9x40 scope with silencer 580€ and without 470€. Not bad price for custom made rifles...
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I have a heavy barreled New England firearms single shot .223, Rifle itself is only around $200-250, add scope Burris Micro dot 2-8 and for around 400 total I have a very capable varmit rifle, Sage rats and rock chucks get smacked out to 400 yards and I have taking song dogs out to 450, with a solid rest. remanufactured ammo is easy to come by for .223 and with the single shot you get more plicking time as well, as stated before unless you can spend 800 plus the automatics like Bushmaster and the AR-types all you do is waste alot of ammo. If your going to spend money put it into the optics it will payoff in the long run.
:aok
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What about that new .17 stuff out there? Didn't/isn't ruger out with a 10/22 lookalike in .17HMR? To me that sounded like an xlent plinking rifle...plus the bullets are just soooo cute!(my wife says)
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creamo... it is really a probhlem orf too much choice rather than not enough.
price, looks, accuracy, caliber, weather conditions, range, local restrictions, recoil, ammo availability and selection and materials all play a part in your choice.
How many things you want the rifle to do... the old days of one rifle like a 30-30 lever or an old ought six bolt being the only rifle for all things... well that can still be the case but depending on what you want to do... you can get lightr years ahead of either of them or do it cheaper or whatever.
Any firearm mentioned in this thread will do everything you asked. That is the point. Some will do about ten times more than you need some will be marginal but... depending on your needs... will work for you all your life.
So many variables... synthtetic stocks and stainless steel have defeated weather problems but... if weather and cleaning are not a problem for you then why bother? things like that..
In the old days for instance you allways knew that no matter where you were you could get 30-30 or ought six ammo at a smallest towns hardware or general store... not much of a consideration today but you sure don't want to run out of rigby ammo say out in the boonies.
lazs
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Thanks for the info, lotsa good stuff to search.
To add just a bit of why I want a rifle is of course to hunt coyotes, but alot of it is because when I go out to the mountains with friends I really get no thrill out of shooting the 357's and other handguns because it's pretty hard to hit anything. Fun, but just not my thing. And I have owned alot of .22's, so that is out of the question, I want a 'real' rifle. I have only been able to use shotgun slugs for deer since I was very young because of county laws, so I always wanted a high power rifle.
Cost is a factor, and like any hobby, I'm not going to appreciate a good gun till I get into it, so I just want to get started. This rules out sending something in for $700 upgrade to change a 4" group to 1", although I see the point for verteran shooters.
Anyway, I'm pry now looking at going to wally world, getting a combo Savage; now just to pick a caliber. And like Lazs said, "why not get all 3?" I like that attitude. I can start with the combo, and get a bolt action in a old mauser or something in larger caliber for the boom and fun of it for very little extra investment, both for pry way less than a tricked out mini 14 or the AR's. I'll have fun with those, and then worry about a mini 14 which sounds like a ton of fun, and something i would like, but could certainly do without for the time being.
Again, thanks for the info.
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Does this mean this thread is done? I learned so much, enjoyed it immensely.
*whimper*
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creamo... if you are out plinking with your buddies and they are shooting handguns then the mini 14 will be a blast. Not so much over accurate or loud that the pistol guys won't still have fun and not so expensive to shoot that you won't be able to afford to shoot a few hundred rounds with em. pistol and revolver guys tend to shoot a lot more ammo in plinking sessions than rifle guys.
with the surpluss mauser for 150 bucks or so you can get 1000 rounds of old military hardball 8mm for maybe 100 bucks... you won't feel like shooting much more than 50 or so at a session anyhow and the fellas will all get a big kick out of taking turns shooting the thing... lotsa bang for the buck.
The davage won't be much fun plinking with the fellas but whatever caliber you get.... it will be a coyote killer supreme. Maybe if you were an old jaded varmit hunter who turned his nose up at anything less than 1/4" moa stuff it wouldn't do but for us mortals and fun guys it is more than enough gun that, In my opinion... you will never grow out of.
That is not to say that you will never lust for some other rifle.... just because..
lazs
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Creamo,
One of my Dealer Catalogs, Jerry's Sport Center, shows the Savage Accu-Trigger Package at $355 Dealer + shipping.
So, let that be your guide. If you can get anywhere close to that, jump on it. You might have to get a local dealer to order if for you. Let me know, I'll give you the catalog price so you can negotiate with him.
This package has a Savage Accu-Trigger Rifle, a mounted and boresighted 3X9 40mm scope, black synthetic stock with the action pillar bedded and a Doskosport hard case. The rumor is this trigger is a major improvement on the Savages; crisp with no creep.
For what you want to do, I'd get a short action round that is relatively light on recoil but is adequate to take deer if you ever get the urge.
For that reason, I'd seriously look at .243 Win. Inherently, it's a pretty accurate round and recoil is modest. I've shot a bunch of these that were an inch or under right out of the box from various manufacturers. I've seen deer and antelope taken cleanly out past 300 yards with them too. Ammo is easy to find and reasonable. I've also used them on prairie dogs and coyotes with no problem.
My other thought would be 7mm-08 Rem. It's a bit heavier and I'd pick this if I was going to do some hunting for big deer.
Good luck and have fun.
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Creamo....Lookie!!!!
Buy One of These!!! (http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/category.asp?cat=003C)
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rude and toad are/is correct... the savage is a hell of a deal and everyone who shoots 243's swears by the caliber. Sorta like a modern 7x57.
rude is also right that the lever gun in say 357 is worth owning... cowboy action shooting has made these real cheap and easy to get and increased quality... you will have a handgun caliber rifle... tons of fun for plinking and more than enough for a coyote out to 100 yards.
Ok... we are up to 5 rifles.
lazs
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If you get a mini-14, consider one of those little red dot sights, either with no magnification or a wide field 1.5-3x magnification. The gun points very easily so just having a little red dot to put on the target would make it almost as quick as a pistol to acquire, aim, and fire, and much more accurate outside 20 meters.
Mini-14s have a rep for breaking scope crosshairs, so the more durable a scope you get the better. You just don't need 9x mag on a mini-14 because not only is the gun not that accurate, the abuse will break a cheap or even moderately priced 3x-9x adjustable scope. I had a moderately priced ($200) fixed 4x scope on my mini and one of the crosshairs broke after 3 years. If I replace it, I might just go for an open or 1.5x red dot.
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Originally posted by eagl
If you get a mini-14, consider one of those little red dot sights, either with no magnification or a wide field 1.5-3x magnification. The gun points very easily so just having a little red dot to put on the target would make it almost as quick as a pistol to acquire, aim, and fire, and much more accurate outside 20 meters.
Mini-14s have a rep for breaking scope crosshairs, so the more durable a scope you get the better. You just don't need 9x mag on a mini-14 because not only is the gun not that accurate, the abuse will break a cheap or even moderately priced 3x-9x adjustable scope. I had a moderately priced ($200) fixed 4x scope on my mini and one of the crosshairs broke after 3 years. If I replace it, I might just go for an open or 1.5x red dot.
Or consider a scout scope mount. Here's a link:
http://www.ultimak.com/
I have a turkish mauser (8mm), sporterized, with a scout mount on it, mounting a 1.5-4x pistol scope. It is absolutely deadly for snap shots in the woods--you can leave both eyes open, and see the whole deer, rather than trying to identify the aiming point from a scope full of deerskin.
I put it together after missing two deer that ran past my stand at 15 yards.
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Originally posted by Toad
For that reason, I'd seriously look at .243 Win. Inherently, it's a pretty accurate round and recoil is modest. I've shot a bunch of these that were an inch or under right out of the box from various manufacturers. I've seen deer and antelope taken cleanly out past 300 yards with them too. Ammo is easy to find and reasonable. I've also used them on prairie dogs and coyotes with no problem.
Good luck and have fun.
Sigh. Back when I was stationed out in Idaho, I hunted antelope with a .243 Remington 700 BDL. I loved that rifle. Flat shooting, had a lot of knockdown, very accurate, and versatile. Light bullets were ok for varmints, heavy bullets were good for deer-sized game or antelope.
Sold it to a guy when I was transferred to San Diego, couldn't have hunting rifles on the sub. Freeking nazis.
shubie
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Shubie,
You have a pic of that sporterized Turk. I have one thats a sewer pipe bore. I have been thinking of rebarreling and looking for a few ideas.
RHIN0
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.17 mach iv
I just like the idea of a tiny 25gr 17 caliber bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3900 fps.
Kills with energy and does minimal damage to the pelt.
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In the spirit of adding more gun pics, here's my .257 Wby Vanguard:
(http://www.hunt101.com/img/162284.jpg)
And, while .243's will kill deer, I'd consider it the minimum caliber. Especially outside of 200yrds. I'm in the Elmer Keith "Get a bigger gun" camp. But that's my personal feeling. My main deer gun is a .300 H&H Mag.
And this is my pride and joy:
(http://www.hunt101.com/img/040358.jpg)
It's a .338 Win Mag on a 1903-A3 action with a 25 inch Douglas barrel. With factory Federal 225grn Trophy Bonded Bear Claws it will shoot almost 1/2 inch three shot groups at 100 yards. And a bonus is that the drop of the Bear claws is less than an inch off of when using the Ballistic-Plex reticle on my Burris scope. BTW, I would also recommend Burris scopes to anyone. They are comparable to Leapold for less money.
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Originally posted by kevykev56
Shubie,
You have a pic of that sporterized Turk. I have one thats a sewer pipe bore. I have been thinking of rebarreling and looking for a few ideas.
RHIN0
Gimme a day, I'll take one and post it, rhino.
shubie
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Nice pics, wha sort of hunting do you do?
:D
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Originally posted by lazs2
rude is also right that the lever gun in say 357 is worth owning... cowboy action shooting has made these real cheap and easy to get and increased quality... you will have a handgun caliber rifle... tons of fun for plinking and more than enough for a coyote out to 100 yards.
lazs
You can usually pick up a used Rossi made Winchester 92 fairly cheap. They are chambered in either .357 mag or .44 mag. I own the Rossi SRS 92 Trapper style carbine with a 16" barrel chambered in .357/38 Special. It shoots 4 to 5 inch groups at 100 yards using the iron sights. Bought mine about 16 years ago. The 92 has a much faster action than the 94, and weighs a bit less too (16" barrel SRS weighs about 5.2 pounds unloaded). For short range work (50 to 100 yards), a Marlin Camp 9 or 45 semi-auto carbine is another viable choice. Chambered in either 9mm Parabellum or .45 Auto, it's light, points quickly and surprisingly accurate. One thing I like about these is that you can get magazines anywhere. The Camp 9 originally came with a 12 round mag interchangable with several S&W 9mm autos, while the Camp 45 uses standard 1911 pistol mags. Naturally, any high capacity mags that fit those pistols will fit the rifles too. They employ a Garand type safety and the bolt locks open on an empty mag. Teardown is simple, but you need 3 hands to reassemble it as the mag interconnector is a bear to keep aligned. Accuracy is such that at 50 yards, you can make on large ragged hole in a target.
You can also buy Mosin-Nagant rifles for a song. I prefer the model 1938 or '44 carbine, although it kicks hard shooting the full power 7.62mm cartridge. Accuracy is more than adequate. You can purchase glass-filled nylon Monte-Carlo style replacement stocks for these for about $60.
Go to Tapco for good prices and reliable delivery (http://www.tapco.com). They also carry scope mounts, scopes, manuals and spare parts.
You can still find surplus Mausers and Enfields cheap enough. Either would be perfectly adequate for medium game. Just be sure to have older Mausers checked out by a qualified gunsmith prior to shooting new production ammo. I've seen stress cracks in the chamber area of older Spanish and Turkish Mausers after shooting full power ammo through them. Steel ages. I stopped shooting my WWI vintage Enfields years ago after I saw a lug recess on one fail at the local range. Thankfully, the remaining recess held or the shooter would have been eating the bolt. Enfields use locking lugs at the rear of the receiver. In this instance, the right side recess failed and that entire portion of the upper-right receiver fractured. If you wish to shoot ancient Enfields, I suggest hand loading reduced pressure loads to avoid damaging the rifle or yourself.
For additional firepower, you can pick up CETME rifles for under $400. These are built on U.S. made receivers, using Spanish made barrels and internals. This is a semi-auto version of a widely used battle rifle. They shoot the standard 7.62mm x 51mm NATO round (.308 Win). Magazines come in 20 and 5 round capacities. U.S. made receivers will accept H&K G3 mags as well. Diopter sights. Delayed roller locking action. Nice rifles, if a bit heavy. The H&K G3 was developed from the CETME. Again, Tapco has scope rails and adapters for the CETME as for the FN-FAL type (another good choice for an inexpensive, military type semi-auto).
Another very inexpensive rifle for varmint control is the Marlin MN25, bolt action, chambered in .22 Win. magnum rimfire. Don't underestimate the .22 Winchester Magnum, it's very capable. For coyotes, or smaller pests I'd suggest using hollow point rounds because the FMC rounds will often over-penetrate on smaller game. Rest assured that the .22 mag WILL kill a coyote. Back in the middle 1980s, a hiker killed an angry Black Bear with one shot from a .22 magnum. I also suggest 50 grain bullets. You lose some velocity (from a 24" barrel, expect 1,950 fps for 40 grain, 1,800 fps for 50 grain), but has about 3 times the muzzle energy of the typical .22 Long Rifle High Velocity round. Be advised that recoil is a bit stout for the typical rimfire scopes (although mild compared to centerfire rounds). Buy a high quality scope designed for centerfire recoil and shock. Accuracy is about the same for the .22 LR, but I noticed a greater percentage of "flyers". Try different brands of ammo. CCI ammo produced more flyers than Winchester ammo did.
My regards,
Widewing
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A friend put about 30,000 rounds through one of those camp carbines... 9mm ammo is cheap.
The enfields are cheap but the ammo is getting real expensive.. the naggant is cheap and the ammo is cheap... all the commie stuff is a good deal for plinking.
so creamo.... I will have to revise my post. I can not in good concience recomend that you get any less than a bare minimum of 9 different rifles the first year... you can fill out some of the gaping holes in your collection next year but that should get you by for the first year.
you shouldn't need more than $1500 worth of ammo and cleaning stuff and accessories to feed the first lot.
or... you could move to england.
lazs
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^ I agree. This is the safest way to handle the problem. And, not having enough guns, one for every conceivable situation, is a problem. Huge problem.
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I will admit that my personal collection of firearms is sadly lacking... many of my firearms would have to be pressed into use where a much more specialized firearm that I don't or can't own would work much better.
I will just have to limp along on what I have. those who know me know it is an apt analodgy.
lazs
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The Savage combo is probably the best solution for cost vs everything. I'm partial to Model 700's (Remington) myself, but you'll pay $200 more for the riffle than you would for a Savage combo.
We used to hunt coyotes in Idaho with 22-250s (someone else mentioned this caliber also). It was a very flat, very accurate round. The only thing to remember is that with coyotes, you'll never see one at 100 yards when you have a riffle in your hands. Think about 200-400 yard hunting when it comes to them. Also think about accuracy since only about 40% of what you see looking at a coyote is actually hittable target (no body... lotsa hair).
When you do get a riffle and kill your first coyote, please spit on it once for me. I can't stand the little critters.
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Well, it's certainly true that you can't have enough.
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BTW... for .223 plinking, I recomend going with the AR-15 over the Mini-14. An AR-15 has perhaps the most accessories for modification to whatever type of riffle you're looking for (accuracy vs quick squeezing trigger fun). It's about $550 to get your foot in the door, but modifications are reasonably priced after that. It's almost a curse.
I put together an AR-15 for $509 about 3 years ago (maybe 4). I built it myself. Then I got to looking at new upper receivers for scope mounting, different barrels for target shooting and different grips. All of which can take as little as 1 minute to swap out (a barrel attached to an upper receiver) by simply removing two pins. Of course, when you have a complete upper receiver, you start rationalizing purchase of a new lower receiver assembly so that you can just have 2 complete ARs... and it's a viscious domino effect. It's tough to own just one AR.
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Rhino,
here are some pics of the Turkish Mauser.
Specs:
barrel cut to 21 in. and recrowned
Choate stock
Timney trigger (set at 2 pounds)
Ashley Outdoors Scout Mount (I think they changed their name to AO systems)
Swift 1.25 x 4 pistol scope
7.5 pounds
8 x 57 caliber
I can usually put them in about 1-1/2 inches at 100 yards, if I turn the scope up to 4x and close one eye. For snapshots, I keep the scope turned down to 1.25x and both eyes open. As I said, it is deadly for close in shots.
(http://ftp.bops.us/shubie/dsc00200.jpg)
(http://ftp.bops.us/shubie/dsc00201.jpg) (http://ftp.bops.us/shubie/dsc00202.jpg)
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Shrink the pictures dude. That's murder on the download even with DSL.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Shrink the pictures dude. That's murder on the download even with DSL.
Then break open that piggy bank and get cable, dude. It took me about 5 sec to both up-and-download the pics.
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It works better if you stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalala". The pics are huge... reducing them would be polite. Being obstinate is not.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Then break open that piggy bank and get cable, dude. It took me about 5 sec to both up-and-download the pics.
I have cable.
There is no reason to post pics that large....unless you are trying to display some sort of extreme detail, which these pics don't have anyway.
Nice gun though.
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Shubie,
Very nice! Did you do the work yourself? How does the scope mount install? It looks as if it replaces the standard mil rear sights. Also did you have the bolt bent, most Turkish mausers start out with a straight bolt unless they are the short version. Turk short rifles are much more rare.
RHIN0
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Originally posted by kevykev56
Shubie,
Very nice! Did you do the work yourself? How does the scope mount install? It looks as if it replaces the standard mil rear sights. Also did you have the bolt bent, most Turkish mausers start out with a straight bolt unless they are the short version. Turk short rifles are much more rare.
RHIN0
Yes, I did the work myself, except recrowning the barrel. The scope mount installs by first sweating the rear sight off (they're soldered on), then using Brownell's acraglas and the supplied allen screws to mount the mount. It's very solid.
Actually, the bent bolt came with it. The Model 1949s all had a bent bolt, and 12 gazillion of them have come into the country in the last couple of years. The short rifles are no longer rare, and DAMN they are cheap. I paid $129.00 for mine, and the bore was absolulely perfect, I am not sure the gun was ever fired.
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Shubie,
If you can please direct me to a Turk short mauser. I have been looking and none of the dealers I know of have them. Most have the long turks for less than $80 but none have the shorts. I can find them from time to time on the trader boards but usually at tripple the cost of a long Turk. I have an FFL and order quite a few guns just havent been able to catch one of the short Turks.
I think I am just going to break down and have the receiver drilled and tapped. Going with the traditional mounts. I am still kicking around what round I will use. Leaning towards the 6.5x55. I think it will be more accurate than going back to the 8mm round. Barrels are cheap and they bolt right up to the turk receiver. Will make a good varmit or deer rifle.
I am going to put it in this stock, color will be Royal Blood Laminate.
Wildcat (http://www.reamerrentals.com/thumbhole_hunting.htm)
Thanks for all the info!
RHIN0
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Samco Global Arms
http://www.samcoglobal.com
Or Sarco
http://www.sarcoinc.com
Kiesler's Wholesale is advertising Yugo M48s (yummy) at $189.00. They can be reached at 1-888-543-7537. These yugo rifles are in fantastic condition. The one I bought was in cosmoline, and all I had to do was clean, clean, clean it, then use oven cleaner to get the grease out of the stock. It's freeking beautiful, and comes with an accessory kit.
shubie
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BTW, the guys at Accurate Reloading are having a discussion about varmit rifles as we speak in case someone is interested:
http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=852675&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21&fpart=1
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Here's a picture of my "varmint" rifle. A .300 Wby MkV in a B&C stock with a custom reticle Leupold.
My son was one of 7 people to draw a Kansas "any elk" tag this year. You get one "any elk" tag per lifetime.
A walking elk at about 325 yards. First shot hit his front right "elbow" clipped the bottom of the heart and out through the breastbone. Pretty much stopped him in his tracks. He popped him again for insurance as he stood.
He filled it yesterday and I got to be there and see it all.
A good day.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/116_1102914932_smelk.jpg)
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12FV 223 cal
Mcmillian A-5 stock
Tasco custom shop 10x40 power scope
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/481_1097786074_sv003.jpg
Great varmit gun.
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Originally posted by Creamo
To kill coyotes and varmints. No fancy gold plating, flash suppressors, folding stocks, 40 round clips, bayonets, or whatever will impress someone next to you at the range. I just want to plink mostly, and hunt once in awhile. The Ruger mini14 a good buy?
If you want to actually hunt and kill coyotes and other varmints, I'd suggest a mid priced bolt action rifle chambered in 220 Swift (my personal favorite), 22-250, or 25-.06 (the most versatile of the three), can be used to hunt more than varmints, effectively), with a nice 6x-24x scope. Any of the above will kill the desired game at ranges of 250 yards and more, especially the first two, if you're up to it they're good out to 400 yards or so. The 25-.06 is a great all around caliber for hunting game up to and including white tail and mule deer, as the 25 caliber round is a good performer on medium game, and the 25-.06 is a great 25 caliber round (I've never been a fan of the .243, I think 24 caliber is really small for medium game, and the round is not hot neough to make up for that on medium game, nor is it hot enough for true varmint hunting). One final possibility is the .270. The .270 is even better than the 25-.06 for medium game, and still retains good utility for varmint use. Both the .270 and the 25-.06 are a little large for true pure varmint hunting, and neither shoots as flat or has the range for varmints as the 220 Swift or the 22-250.
Should you prefer to just plink, I'd suggest you look for a nice .223 semi auto, I would prefer a better rifle than a Mini-14 myself, you spend enough making it (the Mini-14) truly accurate to buy an AR series rifle. If you don't CARE about really good accuracy (I consider the average stock Mini -14 to be adequate at best for a .223 chambered weapon), then the Mini 14 isn't a bad deal. Were I to buy a Mini-14, I'd get the stainless/laminate version.
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Originally posted by Toad
Here's a picture of my "varmint" rifle. A .300 Wby MkV in a B&C stock with a custom reticle Leupold.
My son was one of 7 people to draw a Kansas "any elk" tag this year. You get one "any elk" tag per lifetime.
A walking elk at about 325 yards. First shot hit his front right "elbow" clipped the bottom of the heart and out through the breastbone. Pretty much stopped him in his tracks. He popped him again for insurance as he stood.
He filled it yesterday and I got to be there and see it all.
A good day.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/116_1102914932_smelk.jpg)
Hey, that's great. Glad to see you are out and around.
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Originally posted by Toad
A good day.
Pretty rack. Not huge, but nicely shaped.
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This is gonna seem retarded, but I have no clue....
Okay, in that pic - you got the thing... now how do you get it out? Do you chop it up right there and just drag the good bits out? Do you drive a vehicle in to carry it away?
I just saw myself in that picture and my first thought was "Now what?"
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You quarter it Nash.
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Ah!
no... what is that?
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Originally posted by Toad
Here's a picture of my "varmint" rifle. A .300 Wby MkV in a B&C stock with a custom reticle Leupold.
My son was one of 7 people to draw a Kansas "any elk" tag this year. You get one "any elk" tag per lifetime.
A walking elk at about 325 yards. First shot hit his front right "elbow" clipped the bottom of the heart and out through the breastbone. Pretty much stopped him in his tracks. He popped him again for insurance as he stood.
He filled it yesterday and I got to be there and see it all.
A good day.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/116_1102914932_smelk.jpg)
I didn't even know they HAD elk in Kansas! Nice bull, give kudos to your son for us!
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You cut it up into quarters and pack it out.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I didn't even know they HAD elk in Kansas! Nice bull, give kudos to your son for us!
I'm not as amazed by the presence of elk. It's that hill in the background that surpised me.
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Originally posted by Mini D
I'm not as amazed by the presence of elk. It's that hill in the background that surpised me.
:)
Well, there's a few places where you can gain and lose a tiny bit of altitude here.
Ft. Riley is the home of Kansas' largest elk herd, about 200 animals. We have another smaller herd down in the SE corner with Oklahoma on the Cimmaron National Grassland but something happened out there and I don't think you can draw tags for that herd. Rumor is the ungrateful elk mostly up and moved back into Colorado and some into Oklahoma.
Anyway, he drew one of the 7 "any elk" tags this year and he hunted very hard every weekend from October 1 until yesterday.
You hunt on Riley's "maneuver area" where the troops drive tanks and Bradley's and practice firing every gun in the army. The place is roughly an 8 mile square, and all the old signs of human habitation have been removed. No old tumble down farmhouses or barbed wire fences. It's divided up into areas named alphabetically, and the Army posts a weekly list of what areas are open to hunters. Some days most of it is open, some days almost none of it is open.
So, it's a very tough hunt. You may scout an area and figure "this is the place" but come the weekend that area is "closed" and you have to try somewhere else. On top of that, the elk know it like the back of their hooves and you don't. And they've got 64 square miles to hide in.
The kid's a working stiff and could only get out on the weekends. I, of course, planned to be with him every weekend back when he drew the tag in July. Unfortunately, I only made opening weekend (we didn't see an elk!) and I also went out with him Saturday. I've had a few appointments that kept me out of the picture.
Anyway, he stuck it out, walking and learning the areas by himself, talking to "locals" for tips and finally found "the place". He hunted a little point between two draws that lead down into the artillery impact area the last 3 weekends. The elk like to spend the day in there because it's strictly "off limits" to hunters. His plan was to catch them at daybreak, just as they tried to slip back into the impact area.
His scouting, his plan and it worked perfectly on his third weekend of trying to ambush them their.
This bull was not the biggest elk on Riley or in Colorado by any means. There is a rumor of a big 9x9 out at Riley, a few "known" 8x8's and numerous 7x7's. I believe we caught a little group of "satellite bulls" on their way into the impact area; there were no cows with them at all. There was a smallish 4x4 raghorn, a big-bodied 6x6 whose rack was smaller and way lighter and this huge bodied 5x5. The bases on the rack are about 11-12" with 17" brow tines; we havent' had it scored yet.
It's a fine trophy for him though because he absolutely EARNED this one with his own sweat all by himself. Well, he did borrow my rifle ;)
Nash, you can drive on any established trail in the maneuver area, so we drove to within about 60 yards of him on a humvee/bradley/abrams track. There's tons of these tracks from all the wargaming. Pretty rough driving though. With me still pretty laid up and this elk weighing in right around 700+ after gutting him, we needed some help.
John called some local deer hunters that he'd talked to and one guy brought 3 folks with him to help load. We figured, what the heck, if abrams drive all over this place, the erosion of an F-250 isn't even going to be noticed. So we drove down the rise to the right of the elk in the picture and put the tailgate down about 3 feet from the rear of the elk. They drug him up and in and then we drove to my old elk hunting buddy's place about 2 hours West.
There, my friends pulled him out onto a concrete slab and we hoisted him as needed with the front end loader on a John Deere. After washing him, he's now aging in a cold shed, hanging from an engine lift they use to pull engines out of combines. He's BIG bodied; he just clears the floor with his hocks chained off to the top I-beam of the lift. We're going to age him all week and butcher next Saturday.
Anyway, it was just really a gift to be with him when he finally got his "once in a lifetime" Kansas elk. I'm a lucky man.
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Originally posted by Creamo
To kill coyotes and varmints. No fancy gold plating, flash suppressors, folding stocks, 40 round clips, bayonets, or whatever will impress someone next to you at the range. I just want to plink mostly, and hunt once in awhile. The Ruger mini14 a good buy?
So you're saying you don't want one of these?
(http://www.mustangmods.com/data/6689/sr25cropped.jpg )
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22-250 for critters here......in kansas...the 22-250 will shoot all the way to colorado from Kansas City and get there quick. Well maybe to topeka.
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:rofl ... that's not fair Weapons !!!
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All I know is I can hit stuff at 200yrds with no scope.
;)
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Originally posted by type_char
All I know is I can hit stuff at 200yrds with no scope.
;)
Mr Black?
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pretty easy to hit 5 gallon buckets at 200 yards with a handgun too.
lazs
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Uh... I'd suggest checking inside the 5 gallon yard-bucket for children before shooting at it.
Toad... Thanks for the explanation. GK- or whatever the right expresion is.
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naa... they got little pictures on em now that show a toddler in the bucket surrounded by a circle with a line through it. law has solved another problem.
lazs