Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Morpheus on December 09, 2004, 05:45:51 PM
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A while back I had promised to post some pics of my twin turbo project I had been working on. Some of you guys wanted to see the whole project along the way so here are a few pics of my nightmare/dream.
It wasnt a kit that you buy, it was one that I was making. From scratch. All I had to start with was a set of brand new turbos I had aquiered and a little knowledge of how things work with a forced induction motor. The rest I learned along the way and from many sleepless nights of trial and error, reading and asking questions.
I started out with a 408 ci stroker I had built 6 months ealier and took it from there...
First week... Lots of work to go.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/100_1718.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/100_1717.jpg)
Drivers side turbo. Header some what fabbed up with flange and turbo mounted... All temporary at this point.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/100_1719.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/100_1714.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/100_1713.jpg)
Passenger side header... Beginings of fabbrication... Very early beginings.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/100_1715.jpg)
Ive got maybe hundreds of pics and even some LATE night early morning videos of me bugging my friends as they work on the car with me but I'll skip over all that stuff... You saw the beginings... Heres what things look like tonight. :)
Front view shot.
Different intake and lots of newer parts... Too much going on here to list it all. Tubos on, new compressor housings... All sorts of goodies to talk about here...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/copyofttme.jpg)
Drivers side Tubro.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/t3.jpg)
Passenger side....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/t2.jpg)
Its all on there and basicly DONE!
So what you see there is probably 6 months in the works. And im proud to say I did it all on my own, but of course with the help of friends. Working on these heaps wouldnt be any fun if you didnt have anyone to work on it with.
Well no car is ever done but this is done for now.
Going to start on 4 link 9 inch rear, mini tubs... Basicly back half the car. Streetability isn't really in the cards anymore. I mean you "can" drive the thing on the street but its pretty foolish to try to drive it for any long distance.
Thats that. Hope you guys like it.
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"You're gonna shoot your eye out!"
Good to see another Mustang driver.
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Exuse my drool over the fine accessories.
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Can you like, post a pic of the WHOLE car?
I dont care much for engines..
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Originally posted by Maniac
I dont care much for engines..
Thats what makes a car...
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Thats what makes a car...
Ya Ya, sure, but i rather would have a nice BMW than a juiced up Toyota...
If you catch my drift.
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True...would rather take a woodpanel station wagon over a rice burner.
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eeeehemm....... Toyota???
That word isn't allowed here.
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LoL!
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
eeeehemm....... Toyota???
That word isn't allowed here.
but Big Mexican Women is!!!
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
eeeehemm....... Toyota???
That word isn't allowed here.
Ahh, the words of one who hasn't driven a 900hp Supra. :)
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I'd rather drive an 800 hp mustang and not have to replace half shafts every time I get done with it at the track. Or worry about one breaking at the line.
This is one argument I've had with Honda drivers and others alike. Sure, they have 600hp, but the effort its taking to make that 600hp they "talk" about goes far beyond what it takes for a V8 to make 800.
And, there is no sweeter sound than a huffed 408 Windsor.
By the time you spool up that "900hp" supra, I'll be gone and done with my 1/4 mile. :)
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Morpheus! Hope your mom didn't mind paying the insurance! :D
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Originally posted by Maniac
Can you like, post a pic of the WHOLE car?
I dont care much for engines..
lol...first thing I thought too.
Way too many wires and complicated mechanical stuff in those pics.
;)
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haha... Well if she wants to pay for her 25 y/o sons money pit that he put together she can go right ahead. This car wouldnt pass a single emissions test, or a single state vehicle inspection for that matter. So driving it on the street right now is pretty much out of the question. Altho I am going to, it just wont be leagal.
I need to get my hands on a Conneticut state dealer plate.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
I'd rather drive an 800 hp mustang and not have to replace half shafts every time I get done with it at the track. Or worry about one breaking at the line.
This is one argument I've had with Honda drivers and others alike. Sure, they have 600hp, but the effort its taking to make that 600hp they "talk" about goes far beyond what it takes for a V8 to make 800.
And, there is no sweeter sound than a huffed 408 Windsor.
By the time you spool up that "900hp" supra, I'll be gone and done with my 1/4 mile. :)
Actually you'd be suprised. 2jz motors are pretty bullet proof, and currently power championship winning NHRA Pro-Compact Supras & Solaras. V8's are cheaper to make big gains on (and you can't argue with the raw torque they throw down), but again, the inline-6 2jz motors aren't that expensive to build up either, and don't have the extra weight of the big V8's... Plus, on both, once you hit a certain level of gains, they all become hideously expensive.
The Supra I drove can throw down an 8 sec qtr & was also a daily driver. The only problems with them I've seen (and I know several Supra owners) were a melted plastic T fitting that was in the wrong spot due to installer screw-up, and my roommate's who ran too lean and blew his motor because he cheaped out and didn't buy the proper electronics.
You're dead on about the Honda drivers :) People that want massive power from 4 cylinders of fury need to have their heads examined. You can go up to almost 50% gains without getting too crazy (exhaust, turbo kit, etc), but beyond that they're just asking to waste a helluva lot of money.
Lastly, I kinda prefer that chainsaw sound of Ferrari engines over the V8's... but they all sound beautiful to me :)
Btw, your setup is really, really nice. How/Where did you mount the intercooler? Definately need full car pics!
edit: I take that back, I just remembered a guy I work with. He was running at 800hp in an automatic, and if his tires chirped, the torque converter would pretty much explode. I chalk that one up to user error though :D
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There is a "time barrier" that defines how expensive a car is going to become when you start driving it. Pretty much its once you hit 10's the thing isn't really going to be the most affordable car to drive on a regular basis on the street.
The funny thing about turbos is they aren't creating a trumendous amount of power until you are in the boost. And unlike superchargers, tubos arent creating paracitic drag when they are sitting there not making any boost. Superchagers take a whole lot of power out of the motor just to spin. With tubo's, they are running of of basicly spent energy anyways. The efficiency of a turbo is far beyond that of a supercharger. My point is that an 800hp turbo car "can" be streetable. An 800hp car set up the way you see.
The thing that really makes me sick is... My friend just got an 03 cobra. He borrowed money against his house just to get the thing... He got that and ordered a twin turbo kit... Its estemated install time is about 94 hours. That car, with TT's on it is rated at 900 at the rear. Mod motors love boost. So im told. I hate them so I couldnt care less. They are just too much of a PIA to work on them. A few guys we have talked to that have them say they get 15mpg on the street, not beating on it ofcourse. Could you imagine a 900 hp car getting that? I can't... What makes me sick is I probably wont have the fastest car out of our little group when hes done with his car.
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The stang is looking sweet Morph. Glad you are over the hump with the knuckle busting. Gotta love the feeling of building them yourself. The first time it fires is almost orgasmic " I just learned this word 2 days ago and have been looking for a place to use it".
Keep the updates coming. Oh and by the way we want dyno numbers. Gotta know what you are putting down before I assemble the new set up cause I might have to go bigger incase I ever get the hankering to go north to race.
As far as the intercooler goes. Are you running one or injecting alchohol as a intercooler with high boost?
Have a good one.
Robert
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I think it needs a few more red parts.
eskimo
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So, how come ya mounted all that stuff if you were going to pull the motor out to paint the engine bay ?
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Originally posted by Flit
So, how come ya mounted all that stuff if you were going to pull the motor out to paint the engine bay ?
Thats simple. You can't paint an engine bay and then start grinding and welding, bolting/unbolting, fitting ect.... AND then expect it to still look good when your done.
This project wasn't a "bolt in" type of thing. It took alot of tweaking, alot of welding, fitting... Things get knocked around when your doing that. Not to mention that everything had to be fit while in the car. This isn't something you mock up on a bench and then hope it fits when you go to bolt it in the car. You mock it up while in the car, weld it while its in the car... Then take it out and finish it...
After the headers were welded up, and all of the other plumbing was fab'd, everything came out... Engine and all... I was going to paint it black again... The engine bay... But I saw a few yellow cars, mustangs, which yellow engine bays and I thought it looked nice. But black is much easier to keep clean under the hood. Easier than Yellow....
I had to pull the engine out regardless. Its got to come part way out just to take the oil pan off. You at the very least, need to hoist it up so you can manuver the pan out. So I figured I might as well put it out completely, clean everything up, polish the aluminum parts that I wanted to polish, prep and paint the engine bay... It was worth the extra effort, I think so anyways. Before it was just another mustang, with a big motor, and a set of turbos... More or less.... Now it looks a little nicer... I think anyways.
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The joke is that a 350BHP Supra and a 650BHP Supra are both 12 second cars.
Not suited to the 1320... great on highway pulls though.
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how much ya pay for that ghey snapon fender guard?
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An old friend of mine wrecked his `98 Mustang GT. Not sure of the various models, but his had a V8 and was b a d a s s. But he is a complete fool. It was uninsured and his 'love' of driving under the influence caught up with him. He's not dead, but his baby is gone, and he fled the scene.
Don't do the same morph :)
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Morph I'm kinda curious why you're still running it with that huge bellybutton radiator fan. Wouldnt an electrical set up be more efficient and free up an exponential amount of HP? Just curious.....the pics are cool man :aok
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Originally posted by SunKing
"You're gonna shoot your eye out!"
Good to see another Mustang driver.
LOL Your Mustang has about as much in common with Morpheus's 800 hp Mustang as my Taurus has in common wuith Dale Jarrett's Taurus.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Morph I'm kinda curious why you're still running it with that huge bellybutton radiator fan. Wouldnt an electrical set up be more efficient and free up an exponential amount of HP? Just curious.....the pics are cool man :aok
You are probably looking at the old pictures, before I replaced alot of the factory cooling equip..
If you look in the new pics I took, of the shot of the front, you can see the electric fan.
Your right it does. And thats why I got it. :)
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Morpheus, you are insane, drive on! :aok
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Cool pics! Do many others use the twin turbo's for 1/4 mile racing? Most of the tricked out Mustangs I have seen racing (all televised) used superchargers.
I considered installing a Vortec kit to my 98 GT. Never did it though. The car has been exceptionally reliable and I did not want to spoil that.
Good luck!
Malta
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Morpheus, maybe I missed it but what kind of intercooler are you running? Say its a stroker? How many #'s of boost are your wastegates set up for?
Looks great. Do you hang out at turbomustangs.com? Lotsa useful info over there. I've got a '88 rx-7 with a 88 302 HO in it with a powerstroke turbo I'm building. Had to slow down recently. Been spending too much money on it. :) I've got two late eighties probe GT intercoolers I welded together that'll be my intercooler. They fit between the rails with 1/2" to spare on each side. :)
Nice lookin build.
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Cool pics! Do many others use the twin turbo's for 1/4 mile racing? Most of the tricked out Mustangs I have seen racing (all televised) used superchargers.
Thanks stan. Its actually becoming much more popular to run turbos, or a turbo. A big single is much more popular for the track, but a street/strip car, twins are much better suited.
Superchargers were always more popular for a few reasons. 1 They are cheaper. 2, they require less effort to install. and 3 They are cheaper.
A supercharger kit, if you were to buy, would run you about $2000, give or take. Thats the going rate now adays for the street cars out there.
A turbo kit, either twin, or a big single, will most often run $4000-5000 depending on the manufacture you go with. For the newer cars, such as the mustang cobras, or GTs, a twin turbo kits are going for up and over $8000 dollars. So you can see why some find superchargers more apealing.
But, many people like me are finding it much cheaper, and not all that more difficult to just get a set of turbos, or a turbo, and fabricate all of the other components on your own.
A little welding, some trips to the hardware store, home depot, pepboys, and thank god for SUMMIT racing products, and you can build your own set up.
Here is a cool video, I think I may have posted this once before. Sorry if I did and am doing it again. All turbo cars, mostly from around here... Many of us got our cool videos together, either of track days/nights, or some fun on the street. And the turbo mustang shootout highlights which I was unable to attend due to my car being in the garage all summer! lol Its a cool video to watch. Lots of fast, turbo mustangs.
TMC Video (Please right click and save as) :) (http://142.179.180.218/turbomustangs/turbomustangs.wmv)
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blair thats awsome man! Id love to see some pics of your progress! I have become literally obsessed with turbo cars... Mainly mustangs! But I always love to look at another project in the works!
Here is my intercooler.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/mvc001s.jpg)
Its from TDC, rated at 860 hp. It hangs down ALOT in the front. I had to "delete" my front bumper leaving only the bumper cover. Thats the price you have to pay I guess for having a larger intercooler. I was going to take the bumper out and knotch it out where the interecooler was going to be but by the time I would have gotten done, there would be little left to be called a bumper. So i opted for deletion entrely.
With my boost... I started off at 5psi. That was on initial startup. I wanted to make sure the motor wasnt going to lean out, and if it did I wanted to see when and were along the power curve. So we loaded it up on the trailer and took it to the dyno for tuning. First pull was very rich. I have DFI or digital fuel injection which is bascily a computer controlled system that controls fuel delivery, ignition ect, via a laptop from inside the car. We started playing around with air/fuel and then brought the boost up from there. It sits now at 14psi. It ended up dynoing at 798 rwhp and 813 rwtq. 14psi is a bit much for the street. And the cool thing about turbo chargers, is you can control how much boost your going to make or want to make from inside the car with the puch of a few buttons. I'm done with the motor. Or my funds for the motor are. If I put any more into it I wont be able to do what I want to the rest of the car. It needs a cage, D/S safty loop, I need a scatter sheild now, and a bunch more safty crap. All small and relatively cheap things but they take time to do. I will be back halfing the car this winter and hopfully get it track worthy by the spring. Thats my next big project. And I know its going to be a nighmare already.
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Morph,
Sweet ride man. BTW, is that a 1990 GT? Damn fine job, I'm gonna get out that way from here in Michigan and ride shotgun.
Karaya
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Looks very nice. I wonder how fun it will be to do maintenance on it now that it is so crowded in there. ;)
BTW are you going to insulate the brake master cylinder. That plastic resevior looks to be very close to the exhaust and I'd be concerned about heating the fluid much less melting the resevior. Losing the brakes could be inconvenient.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Can you like, post a pic of the WHOLE car?
I dont care much for engines..
ROTFLMFAO!!...Man, that's cold!
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Morph
That is some impressive stuff.
I can turn wrenches on old cars, but the new cars always seemed to complicated... Huge for figuring it all out.
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Originally posted by hblair
Morpheus, maybe I missed it but what kind of intercooler are you running? Say its a stroker? How many #'s of boost are your wastegates set up for?
Looks great. Do you hang out at turbomustangs.com? Lotsa useful info over there. I've got a '88 rx-7 with a 88 302 HO in it with a powerstroke turbo I'm building. Had to slow down recently. Been spending too much money on it. :) I've got two late eighties probe GT intercoolers I welded together that'll be my intercooler. They fit between the rails with 1/2" to spare on each side. :)
Nice lookin build.
I weep for that poor mutilated RX-7.
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very nice morph. I agree that there seems to be a time barrier at this point... 12 sec cars are, or can be very streetable but when you get below that you really start turning them into special purpose cars that aren't very practical.
I admit that turbos are probly the way to go to get usagble HP especialy if you are running fuel injection.. your car at 3100 or so pounds is getting a lot of hp and torque per pound. you should easily get into the 10's except.... not in street trim. you can't get enough traction in street trim that is practical to drive to get into the 10's ... If you change suspension and rear end and tires to get the bite you need you have a nightmare to drive on a daily basis.
my comfort threshold is the 12's ... I did it in a much more primitive way. with two cars in two primitive ways. for the fat el camino at 3700 lbs I knew I had to have very low gearing and gobs of torque but... I needed to have a car with airconditioning and a good ride and the ability to handle corners well... A 468 at about 450hp and a six speed worked out... the first four gears are like running the quarter with an old 4.56 big block car 6th gives me a comfortable 2200 rpm 70mph the car is beefy and so is the drivetrain. A supercharger would make sense on this non injected car but... it is so darn reliable now that I hesitate.
My Healey is a 2000 lb car so uses a short stroke 331 with all mechanical lifters and antique hot rod stuff and double pumper holley etc... it is a 4 speed car and has very little low end torque... It doesn't need it to move 2000 lbs it is at 3000 rpm before you can get your foot off the clutch.
anyhow.... your car is a far superior comprimise. I would say that it should be far more capable and flexible than either of mine except..... you can't haul a washer and dryer in it or run with no top and the windsheild folded down...
I had two 302 mustangs both mild mods. I was shocked at how easy these cars are to get HP out of and how capable they are for the price.
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
Looks very nice. I wonder how fun it will be to do maintenance on it now that it is so crowded in there. ;)
BTW are you going to insulate the brake master cylinder. That plastic resevior looks to be very close to the exhaust and I'd be concerned about heating the fluid much less melting the resevior. Losing the brakes could be inconvenient.
Basicly the only luxury I have lost here, is the speed at which I could change plugs. But its still not all that difficult to do. I've done it once or twice already. It certainly isn't easier than before though.
As far as the BMC goes. Its close, but I've had the down pipes and the headers jet hot coated which greatly reduce radient heat. I've also, just as a precaution, wraped them. With the car sitting at an idle, after 3 pulls at the dyno there was no signs of anything melting. I dont think there will be any problems there. This set up is alot more "roomier" than some of the others I've seen. But it still lacks in space compared to a stock 5 liter. The wider 408ci engine took up enough space as it was. I was very doubtful if I'd even get the tubos to fit in the engine bay. My other option, and a better one now that I look back on things would be to put the turbos down and towards the front of the car. Which would be just infront of the fenders and have the turbo compressor housings just inside where the fog lights would be. Mustang GT owners know that there is alot of room for cold air intake pipes when you get rid of those big, ugly fog lights and replace them with somthing much more useful. But I wanted to get this done within a relatively short and resonable time span. Going that rout would have taken me much, much longer. But I'll be ok with this set up. And I'm happy with the way it looks.
Oh, did any of you guys check out the video I posted? Its not the best of download times but IT IS worth the wait. Makes the hair on your kneck stand up. hehe 8)
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Turbo mustangs are kind of rare, Superchargers are much more common.
Is that a Cobra badge on the fender?
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
As far as the BMC goes. Its close, but I've had the down pipes and the headers jet hot coated which greatly reduce radient heat. I've also, just as a precaution, wraped them. With the car sitting at an idle, after 3 pulls at the dyno there was no signs of anything melting. I dont think there will be any problems there. This set up is alot more "roomier" than some of the others I've seen. But it still lacks in space compared to a stock 5 liter. The wider 408ci engine took up enough space as it was. I was very doubtful if I'd even get the tubos to fit in the engine bay. My other option, and a better one now that I look back on things would be to put the turbos down and towards the front of the car. Which would be just infront of the fenders and have the turbo compressor housings just inside where the fog lights would be. Mustang GT owners know that there is alot of room for cold air intake pipes when you get rid of those big, ugly fog lights and replace them with somthing much more useful. But I wanted to get this done within a relatively short and resonable time span. Going that rout would have taken me much, much longer. But I'll be ok with this set up. And I'm happy with the way it looks.
I think you picked a good spot. Moving the turbo housings further away increases the lag. It's the reason why a WRX takes a bit to start spooling up. It may be very minor increases, but everything helps :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
very nice morph. I agree that there seems to be a time barrier at this point... 12 sec cars are, or can be very streetable but when you get below that you really start turning them into special purpose cars that aren't very practical.
I admit that turbos are probly the way to go to get usagble HP especialy if you are running fuel injection.. your car at 3100 or so pounds is getting a lot of hp and torque per pound. you should easily get into the 10's except.... not in street trim. you can't get enough traction in street trim that is practical to drive to get into the 10's ... If you change suspension and rear end and tires to get the bite you need you have a nightmare to drive on a daily basis.
my comfort threshold is the 12's ... I did it in a much more primitive way. with two cars in two primitive ways. for the fat el camino at 3700 lbs I knew I had to have very low gearing and gobs of torque but... I needed to have a car with airconditioning and a good ride and the ability to handle corners well... A 468 at about 450hp and a six speed worked out... the first four gears are like running the quarter with an old 4.56 big block car 6th gives me a comfortable 2200 rpm 70mph the car is beefy and so is the drivetrain. A supercharger would make sense on this non injected car but... it is so darn reliable now that I hesitate.
My Healey is a 2000 lb car so uses a short stroke 331 with all mechanical lifters and antique hot rod stuff and double pumper holley etc... it is a 4 speed car and has very little low end torque... It doesn't need it to move 2000 lbs it is at 3000 rpm before you can get your foot off the clutch.
anyhow.... your car is a far superior comprimise. I would say that it should be far more capable and flexible than either of mine except..... you can't haul a washer and dryer in it or run with no top and the windsheild folded down...
I had two 302 mustangs both mild mods. I was shocked at how easy these cars are to get HP out of and how capable they are for the price.
lazs
Damn Penelope Pitstop cars. If you ain't got a turbo you ain't chit! :aok
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so I am told funked.
lazs
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Originally posted by indy007
I think you picked a good spot. Moving the turbo housings further away increases the lag. It's the reason why a WRX takes a bit to start spooling up. It may be very minor increases, but everything helps :)
Well that and the fact that a 120 ci LEV engine with 8.0 compression ratio can't move much gas below 3000 rpm. It's got 3 @#$@#$ cats. Thank God for left foot braking.
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no turbo lag with blowers. still... I thought two small turbos were better than one large one so far as lag?
with two turbos and 400 inches in a 3100 lb car... very much lag seems unlikely.
lazs
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just another pony dweeb :p
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Originally posted by lazs2
no turbo lag with blowers. still... I thought two small turbos were better than one large one so far as lag?
with two turbos and 400 inches in a 3100 lb car... very much lag seems unlikely.
lazs
Yep you get less lag with more small turbos. You get more peak power with one big one. I'm sure that car could light up the tires in 3 or 4 gears even without the turbos, so who cares. :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
no turbo lag with blowers. still... I thought two small turbos were better than one large one so far as lag?
with two turbos and 400 inches in a 3100 lb car... very much lag seems unlikely.
lazs
Blowers don't lag, but they also have an output falloff the higher in the powerband you get.
Depends on how the turbos are setup. Sequential has 2 different sized turbos. 1 small that spools very fast, and a second larger turbo to take over boost. Another type of setup is simultaneous, where you're just trying to cram in as much boost as possible. I know in Supra's (cut me some slack, they're what I know), it's pretty common to replace the twin, sequential turbos with 1 big turbo when aiming for about 700hp. You can jump from a Greddy T78 to T88 (same price), and get an extra 100hp from the T88, but it also lags alot more. Once you go past 800hp, you'll see mostly big twin turbo setups. They lag so long though they normally end up using NOS to breeze past the first couple thousand rpm & get the turbos spooled up. Seen that done before on a couple of track Mustangs too, and they were all scary fast.
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yep indy... pretty much what I have heard. I still like a good clean blower installation tho. Hp does flatten out but... you are talking mild blower motors making lagless 800 hp in relatively mild small blocks.
I like the paxton type centrifical huffer through a carb. addmitedly old school but cool. I have also driven a few small blocks with the weiand roots type supercharger and again, in mild setups, they are great... the Ford lightning and cobras use this setup very effectively.
Right now.. I just don't need something else to drive off the front of my big block..
lazs
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Right on laz. I have a TRD supercharger for my 4Runner sitting in my living room. They're not spectacular by any means, but they're really reliable. I ended up getting it for free, just need the belt & extra injector. I really want to put it on, but more than likely I'll end up putting it on ebay... put my SUV in autotrader yesterday. Time to buy a coupe.