Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on December 09, 2004, 07:37:28 PM
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Hi guys,
A friend of mine wants to fly, so for christmas I'm getting him the Jeppeson book, a pilots log, an intro flight, and an hour rental w/ instructor of a Piper Warrior to get him started. I was at the place today looking at the walls, and suddenly thought 'Why the hell aren't I doing this too?'
Couldn't think of a good reason, so I got the wife's OK and think I'll be starting right away too. Santa Monica airport is just a few minutes from where I work right now, so...
The only reason I didn't sign up right away is because I'm moving to Eugene, OR in a couple months and I want to find a flight school up there that'll accept me and let me continue my lessons if I haven't gotten my license yet.
Anyhow, wish me luck!
Regards,
Chairboy
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Cool.
Go for your dreams man.
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If you're going to fly out of SMO avoid American Flyers. They're currently under investigation for abusing their self examining authority.
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The only reason I didn't sign up right away is because I'm moving to Eugene, OR in a couple months and I want to find a flight school up there that'll accept me and let me continue my lessons if I haven't gotten my license yet.
If your money is green any flight school will accept you.
But if you're moving in a couple of months you may as well wait. Moving, and getting settled in, takes time, during which you won't have time to take lessons, so you will lose a lot of what you learned. Start from scratch once you get settled in in OR.
MHO.
ra
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Originally posted by jigsaw
If you're going to fly out of SMO avoid American Flyers. They're currently under investigation for abusing their self examining authority.
I hope nobody investigates me.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Hi guys,
A friend of mine wants to fly, so for christmas I'm getting him the Jeppeson book, a pilots log, an intro flight, and an hour rental w/ instructor of a Piper Warrior to get him started. I was at the place today looking at the walls, and suddenly thought 'Why the hell aren't I doing this too?'
Couldn't think of a good reason, so I got the wife's OK and think I'll be starting right away too. Santa Monica airport is just a few minutes from where I work right now, so...
The only reason I didn't sign up right away is because I'm moving to Eugene, OR in a couple months and I want to find a flight school up there that'll accept me and let me continue my lessons if I haven't gotten my license yet.
Anyhow, wish me luck!
Regards,
Chairboy
Can I be your friend too??:)
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My family has already moved to Oregon, so most of the trauma of moving is over. I'm sleeping on someones couch right now and flying up to be with my family whenever I can. I've been in real flux lately, and faced some real challenges that I haven't mentioned. My thought is that learning to fly would be a great distraction right now, and it's something I've been interested in for years, so I'd better do it now while I have time (since I'm seperated from my family).
With all that in mind, I still think I want to start lessons now while I have the momentum. Just gotta find the right flight school in Eugene, OR that'll let me continue. Any suggestions?
PS, I'm not going to American Flyers, I think I'll use Skyward Aviation. It's funny you mentioned AF, one of the letters SA posted on their wall was a thank you letter from a previous student who mentioned trouble he had with AF.
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Good luck with it
Man, its $89 an hour for a C-172 here, add in $35 for the instructor and it gets expensive fast. Haven't flown since 9/11 happened. Prior to 9/11, rentals were $51 an hour (Hobbs meter, fuel included).
Love to get back into it...at some point.
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Originally posted by ra
I hope nobody investigates me.
As long as you were properly supervised, you'll probably be ok.:D
Originally posted by Chairboy
With all that in mind, I still think I want to start lessons now while I have the momentum. Just gotta find the right flight school in Eugene, OR that'll let me continue. Any suggestions?
How long until you move?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Hi guys,
A friend of mine wants to fly, so for christmas I'm getting him the Jeppeson book, a pilots log, an intro flight, and an hour rental w/ instructor of a Piper Warrior to get him started. I was at the place today looking at the walls, and suddenly thought 'Why the hell aren't I doing this too?'
Couldn't think of a good reason, so I got the wife's OK and think I'll be starting right away too. Santa Monica airport is just a few minutes from where I work right now, so...
The only reason I didn't sign up right away is because I'm moving to Eugene, OR in a couple months and I want to find a flight school up there that'll accept me and let me continue my lessons if I haven't gotten my license yet.
Anyhow, wish me luck!
Regards,
Chairboy
Good to hear. I take it the weight loss was a success, then. Good to hear that too. Good luck and have fun. Wish I'd finished mine. Soloed at 18 but didn't have the patience for the written exam and never went back to finish.
p.s. That sure was a generous gift, man.
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He's a real good friend, so it's worth it. The weight loss has been good, I topped out at 330 and now am down near 270. I asked the instructor if my weight was ok, and he said yes. I doubt I'll be flying the 152 with him, though. :D I think I'll be learning in one of their Warrior's.
In regards to how long till I move, hopefully at the end of March.
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If you weigh 270, and your instructor weighed as much as 180, better check the runway length if you do fly that 152. :D
I have flown from Springfield/Eugene. The airport was called Mahlon Sweet, as I recall. There is (was) a good flight school there. Interesting terrain around there, what with the Lookout Point reservoir, Sunriver, the Cascade Mountain range - Diamond Peak and the Three Sisters wilderness area. (Each of the Three Sisters peaks exceeds 10,000ft.) I flew up the valley and landed at Bend. It was about 90 nautical miles.
When I was there in '91, it was $40/hr for the C152 and $15/hr for the instructor. One of the best flying days I ever had. I wrote it up for a British aviation magazine. I still have the .TXT file it you want it.
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Flying a plane is like riding a motorcycle, it can be dangerous.
Small single engine planes crash more than any other type. My dad was a Lt in the Airforce auxillary and all they did was search for crashed civilian planes. They went down alot.
But if your sensible, don't fly at night, dont try to fly over mountain ranges, don't fly in bad weather, it isnt too dangerous.
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Get your medical/student certificate out of the way before you plan anything else.
The flight school should have a list of doctors in your area that can perform the exam. If they don't, let me know and I can shoot you an email with a list.
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Although you need to primarily learn in the plane you expect to fly most of the time, and do your checkride in that plane as well, you will get some good experience if you get stick time in a few different types of planes during your training. I found the C-152/172 to be great planes to learn and take a checkride in because it's easy to see the ground (and hence harder to get lost in!) but I also thought the couple of hours I got in a biplane, a GA tiger, and a mooney gave me a bit of extra experience and that always helps.
Slow and stable is your friend for your checkride, so avoid the trap of trying to get up in the sexy low wing higher power rides until you're done with your checkride. Get checked out in those planes after your checkride and you'll save money on instructor time.
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Well, the Warrior is definately a sexy low wing plane, but the school I want to train at doesn't have any high wings. I guess it'll be like learning to drive in a stick versus an automatic: It might be a little more challenging while I'm doing it, but I'll be able to fly more stuff afterwards. :D
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LOL,
The Warrior is by far a much easier plane to fly than a High wing.
A high wing airplane will go into a spin if you stall it and the ball is not centered.
The warrior doesn't even really stall ( it just msuhes along) let alone spin. If you do all your training in a Warrior make sure you go out and learn stalls and spins in a 152 or even in a 172. If your only expirience with stalls is in a low wing you may get yourself into trouble if you ever fly a high wing.
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Ok, thanks!
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Originally posted by mars01
LOL,
The Warrior is by far a much easier plane to fly than a High wing.
A high wing airplane will go into a spin if you stall it and the ball is not centered.
The warrior doesn't even really stall ( it just msuhes along) let alone spin. If you do all your training in a Warrior make sure you go out and learn stalls and spins in a 152 or even in a 172. If your only expirience with stalls is in a low wing you may get yourself into trouble if you ever fly a high wing.
High-wing and low-wing have nothing to do with dangerous spin characteristics. You would really have to be hamfisted to get a 152 or a 172 to spin unintentionally.
ra
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High-wing and low-wing have nothing to do with dangerous spin characteristics. You would really have to be hamfisted to get a 152 or a 172 to spin unintentionally.
Completely untrue! Nor did I say it had dangerous spin characteristics. A warrior doesn't really even stall so you don't even get decent stall training in one.
If you stall a 152 and do not add right rudder it's gonna spin no way around it. If you stall a 152 and add a little aileron it's gonna spin. When is the last time you flew and or for that matter spun one?
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I'm pretty sure I did full stalls in a warrior (it's been a while) The 150(2) broke pretty hard but that was during my first 10 hours, so it made an impression on me.
Piper Tomahawks were first touted as spinnable, as unless it was an Aerobat, nobody spun 150's
Nobody spins for private pilot training anymore; more folks were getting killed in training that they were saving by spin training. Save that for after you have your private or sport pilot cert.
My local airport has a instructor who has a Citabria and I did some spins, rolls and loops in that, as Cessnas and Pipers are generally not spun. A Citabria is an excellent choice if available to you, a pretty basic airplane that can allow some advanced maneuvers when you are ready.
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The thing with stalls in a warrior is that when it stalls even if you hold the yoke back it will just mush. It has a very gentle stall.
If your only expieriance is in a Warrior and you somehow get into a plane for the first time that has a much more pronounced stall and a tendency to spin, I certainly hope you are on your check out in type.
Spins are nothing to be afraid of and put no undo stress on an airplane since you are in a stalled configuration.
The most dangerous part of a spin is the recovery from the dive, you are invaibly in after breaking the stall. If you recover too late you could have some problems.
Should you do spin training during your private pilot training? If you are flying a Warrior no, if you are flying a High wing Yes! You should not even be able to practice stalls alone in a high wing unless you can recover a spin.
Also aren't spins a basic part of the CFI check ride.
A Citabria is an excellent choice if available to you, a pretty basic airplane that can allow some advanced maneuvers when you are ready.
Great advice and will only make you a better safer pilot.
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Originally posted by mars01
Also aren't spins a basic part of the CFI check ride.
You are required to have done spin training and received an endoresment to that effect for your initial CFI ride. You only have to demonstrate spins to the examiner if they find you deficient in that knowledge area.
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I really appreciate the info, guys! I called the place and the instructor was out on a flight (a good sign, right?) and the guy on the phone thought he might have an opening tomorrow. I'll be sure to post here after I fly.
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I have around 100 hours in 150/152/172 aircraft including some T-41 time, and I performed over a hundred stalls and not one of them threatened to spin. In fact, one of my instructors had a stability demonstration he had me perform where we did a gentle power off stall and held the controls full aft, and as the plane settled into the full stall, gently nudged rudder left and right. The nose of the plane would rotate a bit left and right along with the direction of the rudder application. At no point did the plane attempt to enter a spin and the recovery was as simple as relaxing the aft controls and adding power.
In the T-41, we did turning stalls, recovered both at the entry and at the full stall, and none of those developed into a spin either.
I'm not sure where you got "high wing aircraft spin easily" but in 17 years of flying experience I have never heard that. The high wing cessnas are very stable and forgiving in the stall, and if a spin is somehow entered they recover very easily.
The ONLY stability problem I ever heard of was in early high wing cessnas with the older tail without the longish strake, a 40 degree flap setting could potentially blank out the vertical tail if the aircraft was aggressively slipped with the flaps full down. This is why flap travel is limited on some models of the 150/152/172.
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Originally posted by mars01
Completely untrue! Nor did I say it had dangerous spin characteristics. A warrior doesn't really even stall so you don't even get decent stall training in one.
If you stall a 152 and do not add right rudder it's gonna spin no way around it. If you stall a 152 and add a little aileron it's gonna spin. When is the last time you flew and or for that matter spun one?
I've spun a 152, it doesn't go all that easily, it takes crossed controls to do it. And you still haven't explained how a high-wing plane spins easier than a low wing plane. All those planes are very stable and will not spin easily. They wouldn't be used as trainers otherwise.
ra
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Piper Tomahawks were first touted as spinnable, as unless it was an Aerobat, nobody spun 150's
I did my training in a Traumahawk, spins were prohibited.
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hehe I got a video I made last week of spining a 152. Like RA said it takes some forcing to spin. I had to have full left rudder and full aft yoke. It was alot of fun though. It was my first spin ever. Heres the link video (http://www.allenthomashome.com/downloads/spin.mov)
Some reason quick time will only play the video for me.
Chairboy I really recomend flying. I started fling last year now and have all my ratings and have enjoyed it alot. Im now looking forward to flight instructing. I recomend using Gleim products for your written test. They have helped me pass all my written test with ease. http://www.gleim.com/products/productdetails.php?proID=5249
A big question you need to ask yourself is what you are going to do after you get your PPL. To stay current and carry passengers you will need to log at least 3 take offs and landing in the preceding 90 days. It can get expensive just to remain current.
If you have any questions feel free to email me at mia_389@hotmail.com
Allen Thomas
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I paid $2/hr extra to not fly the tomachicken.
If I recall correctly, you can spin 150s and 152s if you adhere to the utility category limits, but nobody really does that since the previous pilots may not have paid much attention to the operations limits.
You can also roll a 172 if you're careful, but it's easy to accidentally overspeed the engine on the last third of the roll because the nose will drop pretty far even if you start the roll really nose high, and most inexpensive private aircraft gyros can't take that kind of abuse but can't be caged either, so the owner will get pissed.
Anyone wanting to do that sort of thing is better off renting a citabria or equivalent and going up with an acro instructor.
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According to Mazzai Flying Service (http://www.geocities.com/murphyslaw2001/Flypage/Piper_Tomahawk.htm) the Tomahawk was certifed for spins, but according to some other sites, it seems to have a bad rep because the design led to a higher incidence of stall/spin accidents, because the airplane cannot simply fly itself out of a spin like other trainers - it wasn't meant to, so that students would learn proper control inputs.
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Chairboy,
Take it from a CFII airplane and helicopter instructor.
1st Pick out an instructor you would like to fly with, if he or she turns out, not to be what you thought, get another one. This is KEY to good training.
2nd Make shure your instructor has a lot of experience, and that the ink on his or her instructor licenses are dry. Some of they guys bairly have a little more time in the airplane than you do.
3rd If your around 270lbs stay away from the 150 or 152 if your flying out of an airport above 2500ft elevation your going to spend all your training time just to getting to altitude, so you can do your manuvers. 150 HP or better.
4th People have preferances about high wing or low wing, tail dragger or tricycle, but what ever you fly have your instructor show you what it can or can't do to the fullest.
5th When its windyer than hell go flying get the cross wind training, get the thing up in the mountains youll learn a thing or two, Learn and learn weather as much as you can. If the hairs stand up strong on the back of your neck, when your going flying even with your instructor, go get a beer and stay on the ground and fly another day.
6 Theres going to be a time when you cant or feal you cant do anything right, dont worry it happens to everyone its the learning plateau. Then one day the light bulb turns on and off you go.
7 Just remember even after you get your license you will be learning to fly the rest of your life. Everyday is a different flying day. Your flight instructor is learning too.
8 Have your instructor, after you soloed, have him or her show you how to get the plane on the ground with a stuck throttle cable, in full throttle, and also have them show you how to get the plane on the ground with no elevator controll, (who knows what the mechcanic did). The same goes for aileron.
If you can fly the plane without these controlls, it will give you some great confidence in controlling any airplane. Its tough, but see if your instructor can do it first. This will give you more or less- confidence in your instructor. Dont take no for an answer. LOL Learning buy the book is one thing, learning from murphy is another.
This is a start so good luck! if you need some help just shout.
Oh! buy the way, put on your best shirt when you go solo for the first time.
Take care Straiga
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Great Points Straiga and dead on.
And for all you super heros, your wrong. I never once said that the 152 is unstable so find your BS some where else. :aok
I have 200 hours in a 152 and only about half of that is strait and level. Fk I bought the thing before my first lesson, 3 years ago, and still lease it back to the flight school.
Is it easy to keep the majority of the GA planes from spinning? Eh yeah for an expierianced pilot, no doubt, that is how they are made, to be stable. Why would anyone here suggest anything differnt or ASSume some one else was?
In fact, one of my instructors had a stability demonstration he had me perform where we did a gentle power off stall and held the controls full aft, and as the plane settled into the full stall, gently nudged rudder left and right. At no point did the plane attempt to enter a spin and the recovery was as simple as relaxing the aft controls and adding power.
LOL yeah next time ask him to crank an aeileron. Why do you think you only use rudders in MCA?
As for the stability check eagl, go get one more hour in a 152, put in MCA and hold the yoke back, dont give any right rudder and give it half an aileron deflection and let me know what your 101st hour was like lol.
I have stalled and spun a 152 countless times, a Katana about 4 times and 172 twice; the Katana spins like a top, man that thing spins fast and tight; the 172 is a biotch and needs a little power to get it to spin.
I have also done stalls in a warrior, J3, V35, 182 and a Baron. Stalls handled correctly are not an issue, but try to remember back to your first 20 hours, if you can then maybe some of you guys might get off your horses and put you D@#ks back in your pants lolh. :D
When it comes down to it a 152 is certified for spins and is easy to spin, it is also very easy to keep it from spinning. LOL cross control talk about hamfisted. Compared to a Warrior that barely stalls you will get much better stall and spin training in a 152. As for the Tomahawk yeah that like the 152 is a primary trainer. There is little else to do with it. I would expect to get good stall and spin training in it.
Chairboy, your first 50 hours are going to be some of the most exciting, exhilirating, challenging, rewarding, daunting and humbling hours of your life and flying carrer. Have a blast, stay calm, be prepared and relax.
Try to fly at least once a week till you solo, if you can. Then try to fly at least 1 every two weeks until your long cross country. By that point it wont be so much like starting over every time and you will maximize you money.
Good luck and keep you eyes open.
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mars, I mostly agree with what you say, but the cross control stalls in both the warrior and the 152 are really nothing IMO. The warrior stalls are worse when cross controled I think. The 152 has alot more aleiron surface and will come out of a cross control very easy and I couldnt get it to spin in a cross control stall. The warrior or cadet, it really makes no difference if cross countroled or not. For a private student though I do think the 152 has more of intense feeling when stalling. It will drop a wing, if not cornatied where a cadet or warrior will just fall and start flying again. I do disagree with alreirons in the 152 though. Ive found in "our" 152 it dosnt matter where the alierons are. To spin was full aft yoke and full left rudder at the right time. If you didnt get the timing down it would lead to a steep spiral. Every plane is differnt though and I only have like 20 hours in the 152. What I mentioned above is my expierence in the 152. I do have alot more experience in the warrior and the seneca.
Chairboy, Mars and Straiga have very good points. This isnt a bad message board to get info on flight training. Alot of the AH community are real pilots and instructors. One of my faviorte sites to goto for info, is http://www.thecfi.com . Alot of DPEs and flight instructors check that site daily
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Ill make sure Im not mistaken tomorrow when I fly the 152 :-) If my camera has batteries :-)
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Originally posted by Maniac
Cool.
Go for your dreams man.
Imagine if they didnt have flight school christmas gift vouchers. Then what?
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Originally posted by ra
I did my training in a Traumahawk, spins were prohibited.
Me too and I don't know if they were prohibited way back when this was taken but we did spin it.
(http://www.inettek.com/stuff/solo.jpg)
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Hi guys!
I just got back from my first lesson, and it was GREAT!
My instructor (Jeff Martin) has 2200 hours, I was sure to ask after someone on the thread suggested it. We did an hour of ground school, then he showed me how to inspect the plane, preflight basics, etc. We taxiied over to near the runway (SMO is busy) and went over more checklists while we were waiting, then finally got cleared to hold on the runway.
I gotta tell you guys... I've driven past Santa Monica airport for 7 years, and I never had any idea what I was missing. Sitting at the beginning of the runway looking out at the Pacific on this perfect sunny day was... amazingly beautiful. The sky was perfect, I could see boats out on the water, and the runway was covered by little blackmarks from thousands of take offs and landings. We began our takeoff role, lifted into the air, and like that, we were flying.
He showed me the noise abatement procedures for SMO (zag over to the left, straighten out over the golfcourse heading west), then we turned north as we crossed the beach.
He got us up to 1,800 or so and showed me the controls, then handed them over. I did a few small turns, then did a 180 and a 360, then did some 90 degree turns. Then he had me do climbing turns. I saw some close traffic and aborted a turn, so we also got to do collision avoidance. I got kudos for that, very exciting.
Finally, we got back into the approach pattern, flying in above Brentwood, then flying along the 10 to the 405, then making a couple of 90's right to put us in close final.
As we did the approach and landing over Centinela, I realized that for once, I was the plane coming in. I had seen a bunch coming in as a driver, so it was a real rush.
On the ground, we did the post landing checklist, then he showed me how to taxi. He had me do a slalom around the reflectors along the centerline as I taxied back to the parking space, then did braking.
It was an amazing rush, and I can't believe I didn't do this years ago.
Thanks everyone for the advice, it helped me ask some good questions.
I have a morning lesson tomorrow (one hour ground, one flying) and an evening flying only lesson, and I can't wait! I've also booked three lessons for during the week on monday, tuesday, and wednesday. Hope I don't get fired, cuzz I'm doing them on my lunch breaks.
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Sounds like fun! What kind of plane? The bigger they are the more expensive they get, but I know my Dad started renting 172s even when just taking up one person after he got his license, just so he wouldn't feel cramped.
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1981 Piper Cherokee Warrior, it was great.
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Originally posted by ra
I've spun a 152, it doesn't go all that easily, it takes crossed controls to do it. And you still haven't explained how a high-wing plane spins easier than a low wing plane. All those planes are very stable and will not spin easily. They wouldn't be used as trainers otherwise.
ra
I've spun 150s, 152s, and 172s. All of them require rudder kick to even get into the spin, and you have to hold rudder to maintain it. And I never found the stall on my 172 to be abrupt--just the opposite. It yells at you for a while, then breaks nose down about 20 degrees. Ho-hum.
Now, the Traumahawk was first approved for spins, then that certification was removed. They have a spin mode that is unrecoverable. The new Cirrus isn't approved for spins, and wasn't even spin tested, considering the cool parachute.
Low wing vs. High wing pilots are just like Chevy vs. Ford drivers. Everybody thinks the other guy's plane is junk. The truth is that they're all good, and all safe, if flown by an alert pilot within the aircraft's envelope. Get outside the envelope, and you're a test pilot without a chute.
shubie
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Doing the lessons in a short time is the best way. It will save you money in the long run, since you will not need to partially relearn your skills after a long layoff. I guess I am saying keep it up.
The only thing I regret about getting my license 10 years ago is the fact that I waited so long. I could have been flying 20 years earlier.
shubie
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Now, the Traumahawk was first approved for spins, then that certification was removed. They have a spin mode that is unrecoverable.
I been looking at my log book, over the last 31 years I have spun the Traumahawk 173 times myself or with students. The Tomahawk, is what I consider the best training airplane around, if you could fly this you could fly anything in its range. This plane you had to fly, not like the others that are so dawsail. I strongly disagree about the spin mode that is unrecoverable, what traumahawk were you flying.
Straiga
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Originally posted by Straiga
I been looking at my log book, over the last 31 years I have spun the Traumahawk 173 times myself or with students. The Tomahawk, is what I consider the best training airplane around, if you could fly this you could fly anything in its range. This plane you had to fly, not like the others that are so dawsail. I strongly disagree about the spin mode that is unrecoverable, what traumahawk were you flying.
Straiga
I've never flown one. However, the NTSB did require Piper to run a new series of stall/spin tests. Here's a link to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation information:
http://www.pipertomahawk.com/stallspin.htm (http://www.pipertomahawk.com/stallspin.htm)
Read it and draw your own conclusions.
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Chairboy: Grats on your first flight.
Straiga: If you've got an inside line for jobs, put me on the begging list. ;)
Re: Spinning Tomahawks. From what I've been told they tighten up in the spin during recovery, which causes some people to freak out and lose it.
My very first student was taught to come in high and hot in a Tomahawk. Had a hard time breaking her of that in her transition to a 172.
So far I've spun 152, 172 (pain in the arse to get to fully developed spin), and Extra 300. Most disorienting thing I've ever experienced was an inverted flat spin. Never seen a Warrior that was legal to spin.
rshubert: Rich Stowell is one of the foremost experts on the planet with regard to spins. Really nice guy as well.
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Jigsaw
Whats your hours and ratings. Any 135 experience?
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Originally posted by Straiga
Jigsaw
Whats your hours and ratings. Any 135 experience?
CASEL, CAMEL, (hp endorsed), CFII, MEI, AGI. 600T/130M last time I totaled. No 135 yet. If students or the photography biz don't pick up dramatically after the first of the year, I'm going to bite the bullet for a right seat 135 turbine training program.
Thanks
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The British Gliding Association syllabus included performing a solo spin viewed by an official observer on the ground, and you had to complete this before they'd let you go cross country. My total weight in those days, with parachute, was about 200# - and the really hard thing was not the recovery (which was easy) but getting the thing (K13 glider) to spin in the first place. Often it ended up as a spiral dive. Powered planes generally had a placard reading "Intentional Spins Prohibited".
I think a 270# occupant in a C152 should be fairly safe from unintentional spins. :cool:
Hmmm I noticed high wing types like 152/172 were more popular in the US than they are here. I preferred low wing like the Warrior, and owned a half share in one once, and leased it back to the club - till some dork crashed it trying to land in a field the size of a shoe box. :mad:
Yes, the PA38 Traumahawk - I think there is something in what Rshubert says - I've never been in one, but I've heard about them being impossible to recover from a spin - an inverted spin - something to do with the airflow to the elevator being blocked because of the high tail. If it had a low tail it would have been all right (?). Apart from gliders, the only plane I ever flew with a high tail was the Piper Arrow 4 (once) which seemed reluctant to flare on landing - instructor seemed to think it was because the tail was not in ground effect for the landing. Long time ago, can't remember...
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Try Scenic Airlines Pt 121 DH-6-300 Twin Otters Las Vegas Nv
Vision Airlines Pt 121 Donair 128 Las Vegas Nv
Air Vegas Pt 121 BE-99 Las Vegas Nv
Mesa Air RJ-145 Phoenix AZ
Island Air pt 121 Dash 8 Honolulu Hawaii
These are all low time starting jobs but it all Pt 121 airline experience.
Good luck Straiga
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Originally posted by beet1e
instructor seemed to think it was because the tail was not in ground effect for the landing. Long time ago, can't remember...
T-tail doesn't have the added airflow from the spiraling slipstream. Flew an Arrow IV for my complex endoresment right after I got my PPL. You could feel the stabilator kick in at about 70 kts on the takeoff roll.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Hmmm I noticed high wing types like 152/172 were more popular in the US than they are here. I preferred low wing like the Warrior, and owned a half share in one once, and leased it back to the club - till some dork crashed it trying to land in a field the size of a shoe box. :mad:
Yes, the PA38 Traumahawk - I think there is something in what Rshubert says - I've never been in one, but I've heard about them being impossible to recover from a spin - an inverted spin - something to do with the airflow to the elevator being blocked because of the high tail. If it had a low tail it would have been all right (?). Apart from gliders, the only plane I ever flew with a high tail was the Piper Arrow 4 (once) which seemed reluctant to flare on landing - instructor seemed to think it was because the tail was not in ground effect for the landing. Long time ago, can't remember...
Not knockin you beet, just quoting. The whole T-Tail scare thing came about when folks didn't know what would cause what became known as the 'deep stall.' Experimental rocket and wickedly insane mega huge performance jets (F-104 Starfighter as an example) could fly with such a high AoA that the airflow over the horizontal tail...well there wasn't any.
Many are familiar with the first tail dragger version of the Me-262 and that the test pilots needed to tap on the brakes to get the tail to rotate up while rolling down the runway. Much the same thing, there simply isn't any air blowing over the tail surface to make it do anything.
There really isn't any big problem with this in smaller less performing airplanes such as the Tomahawk (a fun airplane in my own opinion). Even big king airs like the 200 and 350 won't have much problem with it even if the situation came where it could even go into a deep stall situation.
I'd spin it. I won't ride on an Airbus. Two simple facts for me :)
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Originally posted by Straiga
These are all low time starting jobs but it all Pt 121 airline experience.
Good luck Straiga
Got an app in with Scenic and know a few people working there from my old flight school. I'll look in to the others. Thanks for the tip.
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Yes, the PA38 Traumahawk - I think there is something in what Rshubert says - I've never been in one, but I've heard about them being impossible to recover from a spin - an inverted spin - something to do with the airflow to the elevator being blocked because of the high tail. If it had a low tail it would have been all right (?). Apart from gliders, the only plane I ever flew with a high tail was the Piper Arrow 4 (once) which seemed reluctant to flare on landing - instructor seemed to think it was because the tail was not in ground effect for the landing. Long time ago, can't remember...
Give me a break! People who havent flown the PA-38 have so many opions and spread more lies about something they havent experience. Hanger flying is for the birds. Go fly it or who cares what your opion is. (the smoke is now disapaiting)
If you cant get a Piper Arrow IV to flair your flying it wrong, yea you probable need a little more airflow across the T-Tail, and yes the tails in ground effect.
Your right Golfer, let them have it.
The King Air 200, 300 and 350 are easy to deep stall you wouldnt believe it. 3100 ft per min rate of sink though.
Straiga
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I would add that my T-Tail experience involves three airplanes to my memory at the moment.
BE-76 Duchess
PA-32-RT-300 Lance
PA-38 Tomahawk
The Duchess is a light twin and I find it has a tendency to have a slight (very mild) but unexplained fishtail to it. Even in fairly smooth air I found that it would sway from side to side, but not enough to be uncomfortable to me or passengers.
The Lance is a truck. I loved it for weather flying because of its stability and you can pile as much as you want into it and it'll still go. (I have ~50 hrs in a 1997 Saratoga IIHP and found it to be better than the 1970something Lance, but that could just be the modern niceities and minor aerodynamic refinements over 20 years)
The Tomahawk, well it's a fun airplane. I have liked them ever since I saw one do a roll in "Iron Eagle".
Straiga: Didn't know that about the bigger horses in the King Air stable, I know that their horizontal tails are frickin huge and they go faster than me at the present time. When in flight can you get them to go into a deep stall (Refresher for those reading, that is when the airframe, typically the wing, blocks air from even blowing over the horizontal stab and elevator) and what's it take?
Definatlely no shortage of monday morning quarterbacks, back seat drivers and armchair generals in this game. I had hardly noticed that everyone is a certified expert in aerodynamics!
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During the 60's there was several crashes of T-tailed prototype airliners due to deepstall. The Brits overcame the problem by installing stick pushers that prevented high AOA situations to the BAC-111 and to the Trident. The Americans put vortex generators on the wings of the DC-9 to make sure there was enough airflow on the tail even in high AOA situations.
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Had my second lesson today. It was foggy, so we did an hour of ground school and then he had me preflight the plane. I did that, then did the startup checklist, started the engine, then shut it down and did the postflight checklist, etc.
Very educational, the guy has a great teaching style. Lots of question/answer sessions, and it makes me deduce WHY certain things happen, so I'm really engaged.
Of course, being really interested in the subject is probaby helping my enthusiasm.
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When you stall the King Airs you enter power off like any other airplaneyou hear the horn first, then the buffett then the stall it easy, but for a deep stall just hold it off and hold it off. It just get mushy and enters a deep stall, at about 3000 ft per min rate of desent. To recover lower the nose to the horizon apply full power and it accelerates out.
Now power on stalls around 100 kts pull the nose up ad full power and keep on pulling up and up and up. It will stall about 55 degrees nose up and stalls about 61 kts. To recover just push the nose to the horizon, and it will accelerate out.
Straiga
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We took off this evening and climbed above the weird haze that was blanketing Santa Monica. We flew out to Malibu and did some descending turns, then it got dark pretty quick, so he had me do some instrument flying with a hood. I got to fly it through the landing with some assistance, first landing AND it was dark, pretty cool.
This flight, I was doing all the taxiing and checklists, so it's really starting to feel real.
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Golfer - no problem, mate. Like I said, I have never been in a PA38 Traumahawk, and I'm not nor have I ever been a certified expert in aerodynamics! I was quoting Rshubert, as I had heard the same thing about the PA38 behaviour in a spin. How come you'd never ride on an Airbus? - Because it's fly by wire? I wonder how many airliners with conventional controls will be left in 20 years time.
Mora said "During the 60's there was several crashes of T-tailed prototype airliners due to deepstall. The Brits overcame the problem by installing stick pushers that prevented high AOA situations to the BAC-111 and to the Trident. The Americans put vortex generators on the wings of the DC-9 to make sure there was enough airflow on the tail even in high AOA situations." Yes, and I was sharing a house with a BA Trident pilot in the 70s. I've mentioned this somewhere else - he thought things were bad enough if the stick shakers started up, but was appalled at the thought of the pilots holding the thing in a stall so long as to get stick push!
Straiga - it seems you have some worthwhile input to this thread, but cannot add it without ranting at people. I wasn't "hangar flying" the PA38. I was commenting on the fact that I'd heard the same as Rshubert viz. its spin characteristics. If you cant get a Piper Arrow IV to flair your flying it wrong,
Like I said, I flew a Piper Arrow 4 ONCE - that means one time only. The landing was fine. I merely observed that it was slightly more reluctant to flare than other types with a conventional tail. :rolleyes: Hanger flying is for the birds.
Perhaps your opinion would carry more weight if you could spell HANGAR correctly. And while we're on the subject, it's flare (not flair), opinion (not opion), haven't (not havent), and dissipating (not disapaiting). Jeez, even the Norwegian/Finnish guys can do better than that. You, sir, are an opinionated salamander, who cannot impart his knowledge without ranting and becoming rude. If I were to go for another checkride (tomahawk or arrow4) I would choose an instructor like jigsaw or golfer. I would avoid you like the plague, as I would any instructor who has an inflated sense of his own importance.
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Well excuse me sir, I was up for 18 hours and I missed spelled a few words. Also I miss qouted the wrong quote, sorry. and for some peoples opinion it frustrates me that they know ALL without some experiences, flying the airplanes.
With over 600 students that received there ticket with me I must be doing something right.
Later this salamander has to go flying!
Straiga
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Enjoy the flying Chairboy. Have you noticed though already that flying is almost as controversial as politics at least amongst us crazy pilots. People spinning insults at each other:aok . The other thing about becoming a pilots is the fact that once another pilot is around there is nothing else to talk about except flying. Very boring for normal people.
On the spinning controversy I with a friend did multiple spins in a C150 from 11 or 12k down to about 4k one of which went inverted. Great fun and a tribute to the 150 in that it did nothing dangerous or even attempt to flatten out. A good solid trainer. I have spun a 172 but it feels like cruelty to dumb animals as you really have to force it.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Of course, being really interested in the subject is probaby helping my enthusiasm.
Coll, eh? I mean, youre interested in planes (you play AH...) and you made the step to your local airport to take flying lessons. Remember what you always thought earlier, when you saw other ppl flying? Something like "Nah, its too expensive" or "I would but I dont have the time right now" and stuff. Now, would you stop taking lessons if they became a bit more expensive?
I thought so. What does that mean? YOURE SOLD, BUD! ;)
I remeber someone posting on this bbs about taking a few flying lessons just until he goes solo. I cannot image anyone having the self doscipline to just stop flying when he just goes solo.
I'm just done for half a year with my PPL, so I dont have the experience many ppl here have. But I can vivdly remember much stuff when I learned to fly, how exciting it all was.
Its really cool, stick to it, it will even get better.
Good luck!
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I've spun 150s, 152s, and 172s. All of them require rudder kick to even get into the spin, and you have to hold rudder to maintain it. And I never found the stall on my 172 to be abrupt--just the opposite. It yells at you for a while, then breaks nose down about 20 degrees. Ho-hum.
A 152 does not require a rudder kick to get it into a spin. It requires a complete stall, no right rudder and some aileron. How do I know this? Before my first lesson any experience I had was thanks to MSFS going back to the beginning. If any of you flew it you would know that the stalls, even now to some degree are not modeled too well so I had gotten used to using ailerons rather than rudder. So naturally my first stalls incorporated the first parts of a spin as I would level the wings with aileron rather than rudder. Once you get used to holding right rudder it seems like you have to use opposite rudder to get into the spin, but that is only because you are trained and naturally holding a little right rudder. So try this next time you are doing stalls in a 152 - get it to stall, do not apply any rudder and level the wings with aileron.
Low wing vs. High wing pilots are just like Chevy vs. Ford drivers. Everybody thinks the other guy's plane is junk. The truth is that they're all good, and all safe, if flown by an alert pilot within the aircraft's envelope. Get outside the envelope, and you're a test pilot without a chute.
That is a ridiculous statement. I have not once met anyone that was a low wing or high wing pilot like I have met Chevy and Ford people. Nor are any of my remarks tied to some stupid need to promote one or the other. Personally a plane is a plane and they all have their own characteristics to watch out for. Again if you were reading with your eyes open you would note that nowhere in this thread has anyone said any of the aforementioned planes were dangerous. What was mentioned and is correct is the fact that a Warrior barley stalls let alone spins, where as a 152 will spin if you do not hold right rudder and user any aileron. If you don't believe this go and try it for yourself, then you will understand.
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Mars,
What you're describing is more of a "tip stall", where you are stalling the wingtip before the wing root due to the depressed aileron increasing the angle of attack of the outer few feet of the wing beyond the critical angle of attack. It results in a rapid roll-off away from the roll control input. Due to the inherent stability of the cessna designs if you start it from medium to high altitude, it will at worst progress into a high speed spiral dive. At low altitude, the pilot in this situation finds himself inverted and about 30 degrees nose low, at which time he typically pulls the stick full aft and attempts to roll back the other way, which aggravates the problem and the plane "spins" into the ground. It's more of a snap-roll however, since the total energy of the aircraft remains higher than that required to stabilize a spin. The adverse yaw of the aileron that is drooping also aggravates the situation. Simply releasing back stick pressure and centering the roll input will immediately resolve the situation although some residual roll inertia may cause the roll rate to coast to a stop instead of immediately halting.
I've induced spins in a T-37 by doing this, but it takes patience. You can get the tipstall to occur but it takes a persistent misapplication of the controls for it to get into an actual stabilized spin. The FAA was all excited about this final turn stall-spin scenario you describe while I was undergoing my initial flying training in 152s and 172s, and the upshot is that it only happens if you horse the controls around, and if you try it from altitude you'll probably overspeed everything instead of entering a conventional spin. Simply releasing the controls will cause the rotation to stop leaving the plane flying just fine in whatever attitude and bank angle it was at when you released the controls.
Search AOPA pilot magazines from the 1986-1990 timeframe and you'll probably find a wealth of information on this including complete aerodynamic analysis. It was just after this period of investigating this scenario that microsoft added the tipstall characteristic to their flight modelling of all aircraft. I know, because at the time I was putting over 80 hours a month into flying various MSFS versions and I was excited to see MSFS model such an aerodynamically interesting portion of the flight model.
It's an aero quirk that AH never seemed to quite capture, but flight modelling in any game/sim will never be perfect so it's just not that big of a deal in our game.
FWIW, the F-15E also does this if the controls are misapplied. With a high AOA on the aircraft from full aft stick, if the control stick is rapidly pushed to neutral and then shoved to the side before the nose has a chance to drop, the plane will usually rapidly roll in the opposite direction of the control input, combined with a yawing nose slice in the direction of the roll. It's a classic tip-stall scenario and almost any conventional aircraft will do it, not just high wing designs.
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Straiga - it seems you have some worthwhile input to this thread, but cannot add it without ranting at people.
I'm gonna get ya for this one, beet.
Straiga knows his stuff. He's got a bag full of experience and I'm still dishing out of my bag of luck. He is a guy that I'd go to for an answer, is very personable and always willing to help out. That gets lost sometimes over the internet when emotion, and true sense of what they're saying can be lost.
For what it's worth, you've see 'The Right Stuff' I am sure. Between pudknocker and prime pilot, I don't even have the prerequesites for being a pudknocker.
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What you're describing is more of a "tip stall", where you are stalling the wingtip before the wing root due to the depressed aileron increasing the angle of attack of the outer few feet of the wing beyond the critical angle of attack. It results in a rapid roll-off away from the roll control input.
Eagl good explanation and you are correct except for your conclusion. What you are describing is what causes the spin. 1 wing stalls and as that happens the other wing starts to fly and hence you go into a spin.
Due to the inherent stability of the cessna designs if you start it from medium to high altitude, it will at worst progress into a high speed spiral dive.
This does not happen because you are in a stalled condition. It would only happen if you did not stall the aircraft first.
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The Duchess is a light twin and I find it has a tendency to have a slight (very mild) but unexplained fishtail to it. Even in fairly smooth air I found that it would sway from side to side, but not enough to be uncomfortable to me or passengers.
I know the V35s fishtail because of the length of the fueslage, perhaps it is the same with the Duchess?
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Golfer - knowing one's stuff is less than 50% of the equation. What's the use of that if you cannot impart that knowledge without a rant? Sorry, but my judgement still stands. He may know his stuff, but he's not the only one who knows his stuff. I'd pick one of the others who knows his/her stuff.
Originally posted by Golfer
For what it's worth, you've see 'The Right Stuff' I am sure.
Yes, and I've also watched a BBC production called "The Wrong Stuff". This was a programme which examined disasters, often where experienced pilots had been involved. In each case, the Achilles Heel tended to be "Attitude" - and I'm not talking about the nose angle of the planes they were flying.
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The thing is, you're not completely stalled. The design of the cessna wing causes the wing root to stall first, and if no aileron input is introduced, in the normal CG range there is not enough elevator authority to cause the entire wing to stall. The stall progresses from the wing root out to maybe 2/3 of the wingspan. Short of using a very nose high stall entry or some other way of forcing a higher angle of attack (aft CG for example), you simply can't force the entire wing to stall using elevator only. This results in the very straightforward stall characteristics of the cessna high wing aircraft.
Adding ailerons only may cause that outboard portion of the wing to stall despite the lack of elevator authority, because the drooped aileron increases the angle of attack. However when this occurs it's not really a true spin because the roll rate accompaning the yaw rate will force the nose down, typically causing the speed to increase. If the controls are held in the entry condition, it should degenerate into a spiral dive, not an upright spin. The problem for most pilots is that the initial departure is sudden, probably unexpected since only a noob or poorly trained pilot would force the plane into such a position, and also probably low to the ground since the landing phase and final turn are typically where you find someone flying slow, pulling too hard on the controls, then trying to roll out of the turn with the plane in the stall.
That's why the control inputs for a departure recovery are "max relax roll", not "roll, relax, max". As in Max power, Relax the back control pressure, and Roll wings level. If you do it out of order, you're just begging for a snap roll, spin entry, or tipstall.
It's a shame a bunch of guys had to pack it in before the deadly "final turn spin" myth was debunked along with the "downwind turn" myth. The downwind turn is only hazardous if you are flying only by reference to the ground and completely ignore airspeed and what the plane is telling you, and the cessna "final turn spin" is only hazardous if you pull the plane into a stall while turning, then try to aggressively roll the wings level before relaxing the aft yoke pressure. It's just basic aerodynamics, but lots of pilots really never get more than a rudimentary grasp of the forces involved in keeping a plane airborn and pointing in the right direction.
BTW you can get many planes to tipstall even without the plane being "stalled", just like you can get a plane to stall well above it's designed level flight stall airspeed. It's all about angle of attack, and it's why snap rolls are so violent. The difference in angle of attack between the left and right wings is large in a snap roll, and that's pretty much what's happening with a tipstall except the area of concern is typically the wingtip or outer portion of the wing where the ailerons are.
That's one reason why some planes use spoilers for roll control. Control reversal due to wing warping at high speed is another, but that's a completely different thread :)
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eagl, do you agree with the following...
In the 152 defiantely and most aircraft, if no rudder is added during the stall the left wing will droop, if you crank in right aileron to lift the left wing, the adverse yaw will further slow the lefft wing down more than the right wing thus sending you into a spin.
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I flew again today, and it was great! I took off on my own, flew out over the ocean, then turned to Simi Valley. Once we got there, I did some slow flying (60 knots), then he had me put on a hood so I couldn't see out the window and had me do turns using the instruments alone. Very cool, kinda disorienting at first, but he says that I'm doing really good with the instruments and thinks it might be because I've spent so much time on simulators.
I did the whole approach pattern on my own (with him running the radio, of course) and then landed it. We're going through the material really quickly, and he's quizing me a lot so I know I'm picking it up.
One habit I definately need to switch is the concept of using throttle to control altitude and elevator to control speed. Seems backwards, but with his explanation, I can understand why, just a hard habit to break.
Weather permitting, I'm doing another lesson tomorrow at 9AM.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
One habit I definately need to switch is the concept of using throttle to control altitude and elevator to control speed. Seems backwards, but with his explanation, I can understand why, just a hard habit to break.
Yes, indeed. ;) Glad you've learned this early. I bet the flightsim gamey types would have real trouble with this. :lol
Just wait till you fly a plane with constant speed prop - you'll never want to go back...
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Chairboy, I think what you are doing is great! Best of luck to you.
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Thanks! It's a lot of fun, and flying every day is really helping me get the skills down. Today we did steep turns, more slow flight, and more instrument time under the hood. There's sure a lot of things to track, I find myself having a hard time breaking my eyes away from the horizon during take off roll to check the instruments, but I'm sure I'll get better as I get more time in the cockpit.
Got quite a nice compliment today, he said that I'm a 4 hour pilot flying like a 14 hour pilot. I mentioned that during landing, I felt more like a 40 minute pilot, but again, practice will probably help out quite a bit.
I just ordered version 8 of X-Plane. It's on sale for $50 right now, and I think I'll practice my checklists (preflights, startups, take off, descent, etc) while I'm up in Oregon for the X-Mas break.
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Landings are tough to grasp at first, but before long you'll be doing Zen Landings where it's second nature.
If you're having trouble not looking at the instruments, see if your instructor has something like this cover up (http://www.imfi.net/resources.php).
The little suction cups are great for learning power management on short final. You can get them at pretty much any office supply store.
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Actually, my problem with the instruments was the opposite. When I was taking off, I never looked down to check my instruments because I was so focused on keeping my take off roll stable. There was a crosswind, so I was worried that if I wasn't actively watching and correcting (because I was glancing at my gauges) that I'd veer off the runway or worse, tumble the aircraft.
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well I back from flying,
Now, I have the right to rant its good for blowing off steam.
Now when someone calls someone else a name, this goes to what I was saying about someone not knowing or have enough information to form an opinion about something. When someone has to call somebody names this is childish and belongs in the play ground or sand box or something, but not in the "O" club.
People who talk and not listen dont learn anything, but they still know all.
In the 152 defiantely and most aircraft, if no rudder is added during the stall the left wing will droop, if you crank in right aileron to lift the left wing, the adverse yaw will further slow the lefft wing down more than the right wing thus sending you into a spin.
You got it mars01
Actually, my problem with the instruments was the opposite. When I was taking off, I never looked down to check my instruments because I was so focused on keeping my take off roll stable. There was a crosswind, so I was worried that if I wasn't actively watching and correcting (because I was glancing at my gauges) that I'd veer off the runway or worse, tumble the aircraft.
Chairboy dont worry your ahead of the game, most students you cant get there noses out of the cockpit. If you can learn pitch and power this will make you a better pilot.
Golfer - knowing one's stuff is less than 50% of the equation. What's the use of that if you cannot impart that knowledge without a rant? Sorry, but my judgement still stands. He may know his stuff, but he's not the only one who knows his stuff. I'd pick one of the others who knows his/her stuff.
Dont waste your time golfer this is a lost cause. Thanks anyway
knowing one's stuff is less than 50% of the equation.
I still trying to figure this out. I think I need to rant.
I guess the the other 50% is experience that Beet1e dosent have.
Later all Straiga
Beet1e you have sand in your shoes! Did I spell that right.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Actually, my problem with the instruments was the opposite. When I was taking off, I never looked down to check my instruments...
As Straiga said, you're ahead of the curve at the moment. Relax, slow down, run your check lists, check your instruments on take off roll. Get the procedures down. It's a lot harder to unlearn a bad habit compared to learning it right the first time. The speed will come with experience. Your instructor isn't going to let you get into a life threatening situation.
Talk yourself through things out loud. It helps reinforce learning and also lets the instructor know what's going on in your head. You can practice in your car with things like "There's a red light. I'm going to let off the gas. As the car slows I'm going to start applying the brake." Sounds silly, but once you get in the habit it becomes second nature, and people you fly with will be impressed.
The car is also a good place to practice the ICAO alphabet. Start reading license plates with it.
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Chairboy keep posting updates.
I started my PPL lessons last year and passed my flight test about a year after I started. It was a frustrating experience to have lesson after lesson cancelled due to weather but that is the price you pay living in Canada.
However I bought my own plane and found a good freelance instructor and at the end flew over 15 hours in 2 weeks.
At a certain point you begin to fly without thinking about what you are doing. Stalls spins slow flight takeoffs and landings are all automatic. It is like riding a bike you just know what the plane will do to every input. And it is pretty hard to get it to spin if you fly a high wing.
My best advice to you is always land the plane with the nose high. Don't fly the plane onto the ground with the nose flat, keep adding back pressure and let the mains settle on their own. If you do that you will avoid all sorts of potential problems. It also means you flew a correct approach and did not come in high or fast.
Landing like that each time means you understand approach speeds, effect of the engine on the controls, effect of flaps on the stall speed and the feel of the plane in very slow flight.
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Also mars,
In a powered off stall you will get prop slip stream effecting the tail, pushing the nose ever so slightly to the left helping to drop the left wing.
We ought to have a forum called ask the CFIs for guys who need help wth there flying.
Straiga
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Well stuff all the arguing.
A few weeks ago I took my first flight in a flexwing micralight. Now that is flying! Closest thing I can find to an airborne motorbike! Sadly I'm too poor to continue lessons at the mo. But when finances improve I'm going to carry on. It takes a bit of adjusting but control is realy simple and its amazing being up there with nowt around you. I'm pretty sure its as close as we get nowadays to the pioneering days of flight!
Chairboy you are lucky. Enjoy it.:aok
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I instructed for about 3 yrs before getting on with the airlines. The school i taught at had 6 c152, 2 c172, 2 Pa28-161's, 2 pa28-140's, both the T-tail and "conventional" tailed arrows, 2 seminoles and a seneca. I personally have over 100 hours in each type, over 600 in pipers and about 500 in cessna's (did my training in pipers at Florida Tech university where i got my BS in Aeronautical science and my MS in Aviation sciences.)
As for stall characteristics piper generally was more "mushy" but will break suddenly on occasion. Commonly when student starts to let one wing drop in setting up stall and tries to correct with ailerons right as they are entering stall. Cessna's will break a little harder in general but typically will not spin unless forced. assuming the plane is rigged correctly (doesn't require a lot of rudder in cruise to be coordinated) will stall straight ahead or with slight left wing drop. If then put in right aileron and do nothing else will develope into a steep diving spiral, not a spin. The natural tendancy of the nose dropping causes airspeed to increase and AOA to decrease to point you are no longer stalled. I trained many CFI students and Used c-152 for spin training with them and typically took several tries to get them to spin while trying to.
As for t-tail, Flying both arrow types i found they handle nearly identically in all stages of flight including stalls. The only real differnce is on runway. On takeoff the nose wont come up (soft feild takeoff) till a higher speed in t-tail cause elevator is not in prop wash and is thus remains ineffective till higher speeds. Same on landing as t-tail will cause nose to drop suddenly as tail stalls at higher speeds without added airflow from prop.
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Chairboy, that's great! The best to you, and congrats! Keep us posted. I love reading this post. :aok
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Commonly when student starts to let one wing drop in setting up stall and tries to correct with ailerons right as they are entering stall. Cessna's will break a little harder in general but typically will not spin unless forced. assuming the plane is rigged correctly (doesn't require a lot of rudder in cruise to be coordinated) will stall straight ahead or with slight left wing drop. If then put in right aileron and do nothing else will develope into a steep diving spiral, not a spin. The natural tendancy of the nose dropping causes airspeed to increase and AOA to decrease to point you are no longer stalled.
The above is not what I am talking about, the above assumes you released back pressure and broke the stall before the spin started.
If you are telling me that holding full back pressure in the stall that the plane will break the stall, I would disagree. Again this is all without using rudder. Of course with correct rudder you can hold the stall and mush the 152 just like the warrior.
If you stall the aircraft with out corrective right rudder, the left wing droops, and if you mainain the back pressure, thus maintaining the stall and try to correct with right aileron the plane is going to spin. Lets face it all you have to do is let the controls go and it will start flying again, I am not arguing that it is hard to stop, but for the inexpierianced pilot it is also an easy place to get into.
Now caught quickly it is easy to stop and avoid, for the first time pilot this may be a different story. Again, my only point is to say if you plan on flying a 152 and to some degree any high wing get some stall and spin training first, otherwise be careful. Anyone that tells you different does not have your safety in mind.
Personally my motto is, "It's better to expieriance something for the first time with an instructor on board than by myself."
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If you maintain full back on the yoke in a c152 and full cross control the plane will still end up in a steep spiral most of the time in my experience teaching spins. Most people mistake the spiral for a spin especially those who haven't been in a real spin. Many times my cfi students could swear they were just in a spin. Then we get into a real spin and they see what one really is like. Now im not saying it wont spin if your not trying, nor is the steep spiral a good thing to find yourself in either especially if low experience or altitude. Even at altitude in the steep spiral situation you will find yourself at Vne very quickly if you dont correct.
As for doing stalls in a high week aircraft with an instructor before flying it solo, that goes for low wing as well. Besides anybody who would check out a person to rent any airplane with requiring the full series of stalls doesn't deserve doing rental checkouts. When i checked people out stalls were the one thing i never skipped regardless of how much time that person had in that type of aircraft.
The one thing i wish is that tailwheel aircraft were more common today. I was blessed in that my flight school i taught at had an aeronca champ that i gave training in. I required all my private student to do at least one flight in it. Most enjoyed it enought to get there tailwheel endorsment after finishing their private, but all learned how to use a rudder properly.
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LOLH, the whole spiral dive thing cracks me up. In over 200 hours in a 152 and 100 in unusual attitudes I have never been in a spiral dive. I have been in plenty of spins. And again my scenarios are not cross controlled they are with out rudder.
AS for people not recognizing a spin, well a new pilot I would understand maybe, but honestly if your airspeed is increasing you are definately not stalled and therefore not in a spin. And I have to question how an instructor would ever let it get established in a spiral dive.
As for people taking up planes and not being appropriately checked out, well you can only wish people do the right thing, but does this mean we shouldn't pass on usefull knowledge because we hope people do things correctly?
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Two things:
1.) I think AKIron still wears that shirt.
2.) I learned in the PA-38, and my instructor gave me spin training in it. Since that was the first plane I'd ever flown it didn't seem to bad at the time. The 172 seemed like a kitten after trolling around in the Traumahawk.
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Just had another lesson, this one was a doozy.
We climbed out over the beach, then turned right to Malibu. He had me level out at 3,000 feet and enter slow speed to do some more maneuvers. He's been having me do some slow flight for the past 3 lessons, it's very educational.
Then the hard stuff started. He had me do more steep turns, and this time, I had more trouble then before. I was applying cross controls and consequently it got real squirrely, plus I was using bad turn technique by not neutralizing the turn once I had reached my desired attitude. Finally, there was a lot of turbulence over Malibu today, so I hd a pretty rough ride. I aborted the maneuver carefully (I had done clearing turns, so I was clear of traffic, the sky was empty over there) and discussed the problems I was having with my instructor. He told me about my cross control inputs and why it was causing the problem, then helped me review the basics on proper use of rudder w/ ailerons when entering turn. I realized that before, I hadn't really USED the rudders the way I should have, and the steep turn really brought that to a head.
With his advice in mind, I did the steep turns again following his instructions, and did like a thousand percent better.
Then I did instrument flying, with turns, descents, ascents, etc under the hood. It was very choppy, so after a few minutes he asked me if I was queasy and I responded no, but within like a minute of him asking, my stomach started to protest. I didn't say anything, but the rest of the flight I felt pretty rotten. More like 'ate too much greasy food' than 'gonna ralph!'.
We did pattern flying, right hand approach, did a low pass, then did a couple of left handed approaches per tower with another low pass, then I landed it.
This was the rottenest flight so far, I'll have to remember to drink something before flying and not eat a corndog right before I go up.
Next lesson is tomorrow at 9 AM.
Funny thing, last night I was stuck in traffic on the 405 near the airport, so I turned my scanner to SMO tower frequency just as I heard 58 Sierra (the Piper I train in) request landing. Busy little plane!
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biggest help with performing a steep turn easily is trim. in both the warrior and the cessna if it is trimmed for level flight add 2 full turns of trim wheel as you roll in. this will almost always give you a properly trimmed a/c in the turn, then you can concetrate little corrections instead of how much back pressure it is taking if you dont trim.
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Todays lesson went a lot better, even if the weather didn't entirely agree.
We did an hour of very enlightening ground school where my instructor gave me more insight into WHY certain things happen in stalls, spins, etc. The aerodynamic aspects are all hooked together, and there were a few times where I was able to extrapolate how things I had learned before connected directly to what we were discussing, and the instructor seem very pleased to I had made the requisite leaps.
He briefed me on what we would be doing, then we went out and pre-flighted the plane again. As I have in the last few lessons, I taxiied up to near the runway on my own, then did the next checklist. Tuned in the radio frequencies, checked ATIS for weather and set my altimeter, etc. My instructor radioed for clearance to taxi as usual, and we taxiied to the hold short line, then we switched to tower and got clearance. So I put us on the runway, then 'Lights' (landing lights), 'Camera'(Transponder to ALT), 'Action' (full throttle) and started the takeoff.
Santa Monica has a noise abatement procedure in place for the neigborhoods at the end of runway 21. After a few seconds of climbing, you dog leg to the left so you're over a golf course, then straighten back parallel to the runway while climbing towards the shore.
At the beach, we made a right turn (away from LAX) and flew towards the channel islands.
One thing I immediately noticed was that the winds had really picked up. The plane was bucking a lot, and when I checked the ocean down below, it was absolutely covered with whitecaps. My instructor was pretty impressed at the winds down there and mentioned it was probably a good day for kite sailing (a new sport where people on surfboards fly kites and get thrown around on the water).
He had me turn towards Van Nuys and transition between two mountains. As I turned, the wind really picked up, and by the time I was lined up, the plane felt like it was flying sideways. The crosswind was so pronounced, we were pointed north, but the plane was actually travelling west/northwest over the ground. Pretty hairy, especially since I was looking down out my window at the mountain and it felt like I was going to just fall out of the sky.
I crabbed it a little bit and we got into the valley. We were going to do ground reference maneuvers, so I dropped to 1,800 so we'd be around a thousand above a prominent street in Van Nuys, but the turbulence just went crazy. I was flying through it fine, using rudder to correct the instead of aileron as the book taught me, and got into position. The instructor took the controls so he could demonstrate the S-Turn, but after a minute of flying, decided that the wind was really a little too high. Van Nuys ATIS was reporting winds over 25, and 150 at 6, so....
I flew back out to Malibu and I did more power-off stalls. I really had to pull the yoke back all the way to get it to honestly stall, and I noticed that it didn't have a huge tendency to roll in either direction. My instructor dryly noted that I didn't have to actually point the nose straight down to get my airspeed back because we just want it to generate lift again, so that was good to know.
During another maneuver, he told me to get the nose back down to the horizon, and I told him I noticed my airspeed had jumped up 20 knots (probably because of a gust, it was really wild up there) and I was correcting, and he agreed with what I did and commented something to the effect of that being something an advanced student would notice, so that was pretty cool.
I did another instrument approach to the pattern with my hood on, then we followed a Cessna in for a very tight landing pattern, tower really wanted us on the ground and off the runway fast because of some inbound traffic.
I pulled off the side of the runway, and got to do my first radio call. I was really nervous and didn't want to pooch it, so I practiced a couple times, then called "Santa Monica Ground, Cherokee 8258 Sierra requesting taxi to lower southeast." My instructor did the little victory gesture and told me I nailed it, and I felt pretty danged good. Then he did the readback confirmation over the radio when we got our clearance and told me about how I'll need to remember to repeat the tower's instructions back.
While I taxied back, got to listen to a mistake someone else made that was useful. Another plane either didn't call out his id or hit the button late in his call, and the tower called him on it. My instructor told me about how the other common error some students make is holding down the transmit button (which is on the yoke) while they're going through checklists, not realizing it. I'd guess ground control isn't a huge fan of that, and will try to avoid it.
I parked the plane by myself, it's an interesting maneuver. Cherokee 58 Sierra parks tail first at the edge of the tarmac. There's a slight downward angle to the hill facing the fence, so I bring it in, turn it around 270 degrees (so I have maximum maneuvering room), then do my shut down checklist with the brakes applied. Once I'm ready, I let off the brakes and rock myself a little to get the plane rolling backwards, then use rudder to steer it into position.
Pretty darn good lesson, even if we had to abort the ground reference maneuvers.
I'm flying up to the fam tomorrow, so this is my last lesson until the beginning of January when I return, hope I don't forget everything! :D
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I flew back out to Malibu and I did more power-off stalls. I really had to pull the yoke back all the way to get it to honestly stall, and I noticed that it didn't have a huge tendency to roll in either direction.
Yep thats a warrior. Very nice stall characteristics. Almost too nice for primary training.
Good Job! Sounds like you are doing great! I miss my training days, always had a reason to fly. I'm sitting at work wishing I could find a reason to go up now lol. Thats the only bummer about getting done with your PPL, you fly alot less. I found I got pretty bored going up and puttsing around. Thats why I'm in the market for an S2B then I can go up and really have some fun :D.
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Welcome to the world of the $60 hamburger and $80 grapefruit. Why so expensive? Because you'll end up flying places, grabbing a bite to eat at the airport or buying whatever local produce is sold in the terminal or FBO (grapefruit and dates are popular at the California desert airports) and then flying home. When you get home, your wife/spouse/kids ask what you did, and the only thing you'll be able to really say is that you went somewhere, had a burger or bought a bag of grapefruit, and it cost $80 in fuel and hobbes time.
Catalina island makes a great day trip, and if you have a free weekend during the dive season it makes for a nice dive trip. The airport sells great buffalo burgers (I think they grow their own buffalo, no shxt you can see them walking the hills near the airport) and the landing fee is reasonable considering you're out on an island. There is a shuttle bus to the isthmus and lots to do around the island. There are some rules, both written and unwritten, about flying around Catalina however so read up on the airport, ask around, and give the FBO a call before making your first trip. Also, the airport ends at a cliff and is set at a fairly steep angle so there is a nasty visual illusion when landing. If you don't fixate on the runway and remember to look at the horizon and other visual cues however, it's not too bad. Just don't try to land in the first 100 ft or you might land a bit short, and that means you hit the cliff face instead of the runway. It's about a 700 ft drop to the base of the cliff if I recall correctly... I've been out there 4 or 5 times and it's been a nice trip each time. Fly out with some friends, and that $80 buffalo burger only costs $40 or $20 :)
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I'm flying up to the fam tomorrow, so this is my last lesson until the beginning of January when I return, hope I don't forget everything!
You won't forget. Its like riding a bicycle. I started flying when I was 19 but had to quit before I got my ticket due to lack of funds. 15 years later my wife bought me a intro flight gift cert. at the local flight school. The instructor let me take off do most of the flying and land. It all came back though my landing was not as smooth as before. :D
I plan on re-starting my flying since I'm able to afford it now. I just need to find a good flight school in the Seattle area.
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Originally posted by Stringer
Two things:
1.) I think AKIron still wears that shirt.
2.) I learned in the PA-38, and my instructor gave me spin training in it. Since that was the first plane I'd ever flown it didn't seem to bad at the time. The 172 seemed like a kitten after trolling around in the Traumahawk.
LOL, I probably would if it still fit. I've put on a few pounds since 1979.
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About the Tomahawk...
When I went to flight school (Beverly/Danvers Mass.) I had all my time in C172s and already had my license. They had Tomahawks considerably cheaper (as I recall, C172 was $79 an hour, Tomahawk $52). Instructor took me up a few times for familiarization and I thought it was a fun bird to fly. He warned, over and over, never to spin the thing, even for fun or training recovery. Mentioned they had a nasty spin.
What's the 411 on the Tomahawk and spins? I'd just like to know, I've never intentionally spun an aircraft unless it was approved for and part of training.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
checked ATIS for weather and set my altimeter, etc.
Money saving tip: Get ATIS with your scanner, a cell phone, or the stack in the plane without the engine running. Over the course of your PPL you'll pay for a lesson in the savings of getting it while the hobbs isn't turning.
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LOL! - any of you land-lubbing willy-wooftas tried any over water flight? Call yourselves men? :lol
Of course, living on a tiny little island, it follows that one would traverse the ocean to push back the frontiers presented by aviation. For me, those 37 nautical mile hops across to Le Touquet became routine. But I also visited the Channel Islands, and various French destinations. Longest over water flight was from the French airfield of Fréjus - out over the western Med to St. Tropez, then out to point MERLU, and then a direct track to Corsica, landing at Propriano - 160 nautical miles, almost all of it over water.
Beat that!
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/xmas.gif)(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/xmas.gif)(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/xmas.gif)
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Your story is bringing back memories Chairboy. I remember similar early days of flight training. Don't worry when you seem to go backward and screw up things you thought you'd nailed. It's the same with everyone. One thing that puzzles me is how much hood time you've done. It seems very early in your training. Is it an FAA thing?
Beetle, maybe not 160 miles but as someone living on an even smaller island I 've flown over the Irish sea to England a few times. A lot scarier than the Channel. The thought occurred to me more than once that if the single engine out in front, stopped now over the water and with the land only a distant smudge on the horizon then I'd feature on the six o'clock news in two countries that evening. Without the word 'rescued' in the report either. I somehow doubt that ditching a fixed gear high wing aircraft like a 172 is particularly surviveable. I was never that nervous about it though. Unlike a friend who developed a trembling knee and a sudden intense interest in the engine controls as 'auto rough' syndrome cut in while flying back from the Isle of Man one dull, cloudy wintry day.
Flying over the Channel was an experience too as was flying up the length of the Normandy beaches. Flying in the very space that saw so much history is spooky. Crossing the channel I tried to imagine the scenes played out in the very place I was so placidly cruising through. We were in loose formation with another aircraft and at one point I lost sight of him. It really brought home how on the ball you had to be in back in the 1940's if you wanted to stay alive.
That is one thing American flyers miss out on. The ability to fly in and see the very places we now simulate on HTC and other sims. It really brought it home to me at the time.
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Regarding the hood time, he's having me do a few minutes each flight, and I'm finding it very useful.
He asked me today while I was under the hood "What would you do if you entered a cloud by accident?" Without hesitating, I responded that I'd turn around. That was apparently the right answer, and he told me to keep all my instrument turns shallow.
"You're not in a hurry, keep the bank angle shallow to help avoid disorientation", he said. Makes a lot of sense, I banked a little far once while under the hood and could really feel how someone could become disoriented quickly.
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Oh, no bites - just a nibble from cpxxx - How ya doing!
Yes, I can imagine the Irish Sea could be interesting, with weather and all. What always amazed me about crossing the Channel was that the weather on one side could be completely different from the weather on the other side. Le Touquet was prone to fog. The hotels there do a roaring trade from stranded VFR pilots, and I was sometimes one of them. Cpxxx, I take it your licence is issued by the Irish authorities? Do you have that IMC rating that we have here?
The one thing I made sure of for those overwater flights was to do what chairboy is doing, and get plenty of hood time in. Although conditions could technically be VMC, as you know it was often not possible to see anything. The condition which our CAA identifies as "empty vision myopia". One time I was flying Jersey to Southampton. It was CAVOK at Jersey and 8km vis. at Southampton. But in the middle, over the Channel - oh boy. :eek: My intended heading was 010°, and I was trying to fly VFR. The sea seemed to be sloping away and when I looked at the DI I found I'd made an unintentional turn onto 270°! From that moment, I kept my head inside the cockpit, glued to the instruments while my passenger looked out the window. I'd descended to 1500' and Southampton gave a timely reminder that my minimum safety altitude in that sector was 2300ft - because of that TV mast on the Isle of Wight. I decided to climb to MSA, and it was awful. The sea was still visible, but that was it. According to Southampton, there was only one other aircraft in the area - another PA28 about 15 miles ahead of us going in the same direction. We continued for what must have been about 20 minutes, and then... we could see sailing craft in the waters below. It was the most beautiful sight! Came in over Southampton Water and landed. This was c1989 in the days before the A-G airspace. I forget what Southampton's airspace was called, but in the reduced visibility I asked for a Special VFR clearance to Enstone - my home base, right next to USAF Upper Heyford. As a VFR pilot (no IMC) I should not have asked for that clearance, although when I checked later I saw that Rule 36 allows ATC special dispensation to grant one to a VFR pilot.
You're right about the ditching of a 172 - not a good prospect. Low wing with retractable would be the least bad prospect. My latest plane was a TB10 - low wing, fixed gear. The thing is, surviving the ditching would only be the first part. As you know, those Channel waters are cold enough to kill, even in the summer. I wore a life vest, but my life expectancy in that water was probably around 2 minutes in the winter, maybe a whopping 4 minutes in the summer. I always kept an eye on where the surface vessels were, and there are many in those waters. There are also sharks - but blue sharks that eat plankton or small fish, ie not interested in a 200lb steak.
Mars01 said "I miss my training days, always had a reason to fly. I'm sitting at work wishing I could find a reason to go up now lol. Thats the only bummer about getting done with your PPL, you fly alot less. I found I got pretty bored going up and puttsing around." Not baiting you, because you're an old friend :aok but I can't help noticing how our Aces High gameplay personalities carry over into real life. You are clearly very good and knowledgeable about your 152 - spinning, general handling etc. But where we differ is that I found my hours skyrocketed after I got my licence and bought a ½ share of a PA28-151 shortly thereafter. As in AH, I wasn't terribly interested in all that yanking and banking. ;) (And this was years before I knew my first flightsim!) I did some, of course, but as in AH it would not have held my interest. I wanted to use the aircraft to go sightseeing! Tail wagging dog on occasion, but I loved every second. In my peak years 1989-94, 75-100 hours a year was typical for me. It was a different skillset from yanking & banking. My forté was route planning, NAV & MET, and doing those 250 mile flights - over water and mountain flights at my oxygen ceiling were of particular interest.
Chairboy has a lot to look forward to, especially if he were to spend a season flying around Europe. Might have to rob a few banks first though. :lol
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Mars01 said "I miss my training days, always had a reason to fly. I'm sitting at work wishing I could find a reason to go up now lol. Thats the only bummer about getting done with your PPL, you fly alot less. I found I got pretty bored going up and puttsing around." Not baiting you, because you're an old friend but I can't help noticing how our Aces High gameplay personalities carry over into real life. You are clearly very good and knowledgeable about your 152 - spinning, general handling etc. But where we differ is that I found my hours skyrocketed after I got my licence and bought a ½ share of a PA28-151 shortly thereafter. As in AH, I wasn't terribly interested in all that yanking and banking. (And this was years before I knew my first flightsim!) I did some, of course, but as in AH it would not have held my interest. I wanted to use the aircraft to go sightseeing! Tail wagging dog on occasion, but I loved every second. In my peak years 1989-94, 75-100 hours a year was typical for me. It was a different skillset from yanking & banking. My forté was route planning, NAV & MET, and doing those 250 mile flights - over water and mountain flights at my oxygen ceiling were of particular interest.
LOL don't get me wrong beat, I have had my license for a few years and in the beggining I did all the trips too, my longest was from CT to Pittsburgh PA. I think the trip was about 400 miles or so. I rented a 172 in Jackson Hole WY and flew around Yellow Stone.
I never turn down a flight or ride and make routine trips around the Statue of Liberty all the time. I was hanging out at our flight school just this past weekend and sat back seat in a Barron 58, while my instructor (now good friend) was giving an IFR lesson. Talk about a beautiful plane. Full, glass cockpit, full leather, our GS to Harford was 260 miles an hour with a nice tailwind.
But honestly I got my license to fly acrobatics, so the mulling around has gotton somewhat mundane, but I still love it!
Anyway, you know the old saying...
"It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here."
I only felt that way once, early in my training, practiceing landings on a bit of a windy day. hehehehe lol. Boy was I happy to get that thing down and parked hahhahaha lolh.
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Originally posted by mars01
But honestly I got my license to fly acrobatics, so the mulling around has gotton somewhat mundane, but I still love it!
OK, fine. I've done quite a bit of aerobatics too in my gliding years. Over the winter months there was bugger all else to do, as soaring was out. It could get expensive though. When you start aerobatting in a glider from 3000', it's not going to be long before your E is all gone and you have to land.
Mulling around would bore me too. But I never got bored on those foreign trips. Every flight was different. I met so many people, and saw so many different attitudes and approaches to flying.
I could not have done what I did in a rental plane. Too many restrictions/stipulations. Eg., some FBOs (as they're known in the US) would not let you take a plane on an overnight trip. Most would stipulate a minimum number of hours the plane would have to be flown each day if you were taking it away. Some did not like you taking the plane into a foreign country. Sometimes I'd get in that plane and go off for a week, ten days or even more. "It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here."
Hehe, yes! We have that saying here too. But even though I put myself in some heavy workload situations, the position never became irretrievable. I mentioned that one flight to illustrate the importance of instrument proficiency on overwater flight. I'm sure you would agree.
Where's Chairboy? I hope we haven't scared him off! (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/xmas.gif)
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I'm up in Oregon for the holidays, so my flying is on a temporary hiatus. I thought about maybe getting a couple hours in a local 172 or something, but decided not to until I after I solo. I want to give my instructor a chance to give me the right mix of habits before I involve someone else, plus I really want to spend every minute with my family.
Another part of the reason I'm doing the lessons now in LA is that I've moved my whole family up to Springfield, OR while I look for a replacement job. It was either learn how to fly or start drinking, I figured I might as well spare my liver for now.
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Originally posted by beet1e
LOL! - any of you land-lubbing willy-wooftas tried any over water flight? Call yourselves men? :lol
Of course, living on a tiny little island, it follows that one would traverse the ocean to push back the frontiers presented by aviation. For me, those 37 nautical mile hops across to Le Touquet became routine. But I also visited the Channel Islands, and various French destinations. Longest over water flight was from the French airfield of Fréjus - out over the western Med to St. Tropez, then out to point MERLU, and then a direct track to Corsica, landing at Propriano - 160 nautical miles, almost all of it over water.
Beat that!
I fly over Georgian Bay going from Toronto to Sudbury quite a bit. Not sure how long the Bay is but it is probably a good 60 naut miles based on how long it takes to fly.
I ususally climb up to 9500' in the 182 and have the throttle all the way in. Usually cruise at 130 to 150 knots depending on the tailwind.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Another part of the reason I'm doing the lessons now in LA is that I've moved my whole family up to Springfield, OR while I look for a replacement job.
Are you going to be buying another pizza restaurant? You could make deliveries by air! (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/xmas.gif)
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I suspect that delivery method might disturb the toppings.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I suspect that delivery method might disturb the toppings.
:lol <-first laugh of the day is always the best!
Seriously, you can do it. If you're flying your plane properly with coordinated turns it should not be a problem. Did you ever see an aerobatic performance by the legendary ace, Bob Hoover? He did a demonstration with a camera in his cockpit - the one where he has a jug (oops - pitcher) of water, which he pours into a glass on top of the combing (<-unsure of spelling). He was able to barrel roll the aircraft while pouring the water, and because he kept it in positive G, no water was spilt.
I saw Bob Hoover perform at the 1991 EAA Convention at Oshkosh. He did an amazing display in his twin engined Shrike Commander - and then he did the same thing with one engine out...
...and then he did it with NO engines!
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Chairboy what happened to the restaurant? Did it not work out?
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The restaurant is doing fine, making a profit too now that we've paid off the loan and own it outright. The restaurant is here in Springfield and my wife runs it.
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Over water a piece of cake.
Depart KLAX climb to 33k two hours into the flight climb to 39k after 5 hours flight time decend into KHNL and land. The next day depart KHNL climb to 34k direct to sydney and land. Then fly it back shooting a CAT III aproach to minimums into KLAX. Piece of cake, real men at work flying a B-767-300ER. Fly two of these trips a month and kick back the rest of the month.
Straiga
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Originally posted by Straiga
Over water a piece of cake.
Ya'll using INS or GPS?
One of my classes next semester is "Air Traffic Control." Should be fairly easy, but now you've got me wondering how ATC works for flag operations.
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Ya'll using INS or GPS?
One of my classes next semester is "Air Traffic Control." Should be fairly easy, but now you've got me wondering how ATC works for flag operations.
I'm not sure of the ISBN now, but I've got books and books and books about International ops. Took "High Alt/Intl Ops" two semesters ago and it went over the whole shebang in great detail. Slightly lacking in GPS technology, but the book was a few years old at the time. Great stuff on Inertial Nav and so forth. Also lots of detail on JAA, flying in Europe, Pacific and Asia.
I could send em to ya to borrow for only shipping if you need em for the quarter. I just need to dig em up.
Lemme know. I can compare ISBNs and prices on Amazon.com (where I order all my books now) as I recall they were fairly cheap in the $30 range.
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Originally posted by Straiga
Over water a piece of cake.
Depart KLAX climb to 33k two hours into the flight climb to 39k after 5 hours flight time decend into KHNL and land. The next day depart KHNL climb to 34k direct to sydney and land. Then fly it back shooting a CAT III aproach to minimums into KLAX. Piece of cake, real men at work flying a B-767-300ER. Fly two of these trips a month and kick back the rest of the month.
Straiga
Hey great! Big automatic plane which flies itself. WTG! :aok
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Originally posted by Golfer
Lemme know. I can compare ISBNs and prices on Amazon.com (where I order all my books now) as I recall they were fairly cheap in the $30 range.
Thanks for the generous offer Golfer. I'm not sure what the textbook is yet, but I'll let you know once I find out.
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Hi guys!
Just got back from a great holiday spent with my family up in Oregon, so it's time to start flying again.
Today, we did an hour of ground school, then went flying. I did my first tower call to request take off ("Santa Monica Tower, Cherokee 8258S holding short runway three request takeoff with left downwind departure.") I took off, then flew through a canyon to Chatworth, west of Van Nuys. There, I dropped to 1,800MSL, about a thousand feet above the ground, and did S-turns back and forth over a road. When we were done, my instructor said, and I kid you not, 'Just like typical Ben flying, you aced it on the first try.' Gotta like it! That was a great thing to hear, and I was very careful not to pooch up my next maneuver after he said that. During the S-turns, I was able to control my altitude precisely, watch for traffic, keep my airspeed within 5 knots, everything. It's all starting to feel like second nature, and I'm getting a lot more comfortable at scanning inside and outside regularily so I have no surprises.
After this, he put me under the hood again (so I couldn't see out the window) and had me do a number of maneuvers like changing altitude, heading, and both at the same time. Something he did differently this time that I noticed was he started piling a few things on me at once, gradually increasing the number of tasks to complete. He never overwhelmed me, and it helped me gain confidence in my cockpit management skills.
As I completed my descent checklist, I scanned for traffic every few seconds and saw a twin converging with us at altitude. I immediately pointed it out to my instructor and he took the controls and maneuvered us behind him. The scanning pattern really works for finding traffic, and he commended me. We watched the twin do some erratic maneuvering, it looked like a student pilot who didn't do a clearing turn before making a big turn. We split off from him and headed into Santa Monica for a left hand pattern approach. Because of the wind, we got vectored in to the VA hospital near Wilshire, then into the pattern heading to the ocean. There was a jet coming in, so the tower asked us to do a real short approach and get on the ground quickly. My instructor took the controls and brought us in real quick. While he was maneuvering, tower told the jet to continue a mile past the shore before turning back to give us time to land, then canceled that saying 'That Cherokee did a real nice job setting up for landing, cancel that and turn left at shoreline.' My instructor laughed, and said 'I think I just got a compliment!'. He handed back the controls to me and I brough it in and landed it. I flared a little high, I need to work on getting my perspective of the runway down, but that just meant I landed a little long.
When we were off the runway, I called to ground control and requested taxi, then parked the plane.
It was a great lesson, and it really felt good that I didn't forget everything during my multi-week hiatus.
I'm back flying every morning this week, then hopefully I'll do double lessons on the weekend.
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Originally posted by mars01
LOL,
The Warrior is by far a much easier plane to fly than a High wing.
A high wing airplane will go into a spin if you stall it and the ball is not centered.
The warrior doesn't even really stall ( it just msuhes along) let alone spin. If you do all your training in a Warrior make sure you go out and learn stalls and spins in a 152 or even in a 172. If your only expirience with stalls is in a low wing you may get yourself into trouble if you ever fly a high wing.
A friend took me up in his Aviat Husky (a high-wing plane) and let me stall it by easing the nose up and backing off on the throttle. It was the most docile thing. Now, I admit the ball was centered and wings level. It just mushed over in a nose-down attitude and picked up speed very quickly and I was in controlled flight again. It barely even shuddered when it stalled. Was a thrill for a non-pilot like me.(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/64_1104956921_aut_0109.jpg)
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Another lesson today, converted more cash into lift.
I preflighted, then we took off and flew up to Malibu again. On the way, he had me transition in and out of slow flight. I get nervous down at 60 knots, as flying the sims has taught me that 'e is life'. My instructor briefed me, then had me do some more power off stalls to review. I've gotten a lot better at recovering, I really need to stomp on that rudder and avoid trying to use my ailerons.
Then we did something new, we did power ON stalls. Basically, I'd throttle back to descent, pull back the yoke until the stall horn started buzzing, then I'd throttle up to 2100 RPM, which is right around cruise. Then I extend the nose even higher until buffeting started, and when it stalled, I'd recover. I did this like 5 times because I had a real bad habit of trying to use ailerons, but my instructor rapped my knuckles on it long enough that I got it down finally.
Next, he simulated an engine failure for me. We were out by Malibu again, so he set the best glide speed (in this plane, 73 knots), identified the field at Pepperdine University as his landing spot, and then walked through the troubleshooting checklist. After going through the troubleshooting, he simulated calling radio w/ Mayday (121.5mhz, if I recall) and then set up an approach to the field. As we came in over the shoreline, he applied power and we pulled away. If I was on the ground, I would have been paying real close attention, because I'm sure we looked like we were in trouble!
We flew back to Santa Monica and he let me do all the planning, checklists, and radio calls to the tower. I landed it on my own, then pulled off to the side of the runway and prepared to call to taxi back to parking, but he told me to request taxi for another take off. So I did, and we took off again with a closed left hand pattern. This time, he had me call the tower to request 'The option', which sounded mysterious. Dutifully, I called 'Santa Monica Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra requesting the option'. Tower responded clearing me for it, then the instructor filled me in on how 'The Option' means that I can either land, touch and go, or just do a low pass. When I lined up and was about to touch down, he had me initiate a go-around and throttle up.
I dog-legged over the golf course like usual (I wonder if the people below appreciate all the effort the pilots go through to be quiet for them) and turned left at Lincoln again, then did another Left hand pattern approach, this time with clearance to land.
Most of my other landings, my instructor has been helping with the controls a bit and sort of overriding me. This time, I asserted myself and told him I had it, then brought the plane in for a really smooth landing. As we touched down, he seemed real pleased, so I'm looking forward to doing more on my own.
One area I've got to pound into my head is how big the runway is. I tend to flare a little early because I'm used to narrow runways in my simulators & Aces High.
It was a good lesson, I parked the plane and did a little ground school. I bought my first map, the LAX area one, and I'll be studying it tonight.
Tomorrow morning, another lesson!
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Cool beans. Nice to see you progressing.
As you're setting up for power on stalls and adding back pressure, hold it in when you go to add power. That will make the stall happen earlier and more smoothly.
A common thing is to let the nose down a bit just before you add power. That raises your airspeed and prolongs the stall, making the nose go higher before it breaks. Not an overly big deal in trainers, but as you get into bigger planes you can end up going ballistic before getting to a pretty harsh break. Better to develop a good habit now.
Golfer: ATC class doesn't require a book. Just a current AIM. Thanks again for the offer.
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Golfer: ATC class doesn't require a book. Just a current AIM. Thanks again for the offer.
No problem, mon.
I caught in another thread you're in advanced aerodynamics...whats the text?
Even though it may not be used for your course, I suggest:
"The Illustrated guide to Aerodynamics" by H.C. "Skip" Smith
ISBN 0-8306-3901-2
Good read and its not as dry as an aerodynamics book should be. Those are almost as fun as that blue 'Aviation Weather' book..ugh!
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Thanks for the tip Golfer. I'll check it out.
Was in the pilot shop by my old flight school one day and a guy working on his private asked me what I thought about the book "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators." I recommended him getting down the basics first.
Not taking Advanced Aero this semester. Haven't decided on my fall classes yet, but that one will probably be fall or next spring. I'm taking summer off for a change, though.
edit- Oh yeh, I just had to buy another copy of the "Weather" and "Weather Services". Yeehaw!
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aerodynamics for naval aviators isn't bad for a private student. It's good to pick through it at your own pace and you'll be ahead of the curve when it comes time for more advanced ratings. Go apologize to that man! :)
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Went to class, but was unable to fly today because of weather. My instructor said that it's fine for us to fly in rain if we have high enough ceiling and good enough weather, but he implied that he sort of drew the line at thunder and lightning.
We spent groundschool going over charts. Boy howdy, I think learning the different airspace types is going to be a real challenge. I bought my LAX area chart that I'm studying, he's gonna quiz me mercilessly tomorrow.
An interesting new development, he needs to see my passport or birth certificate to verify citizenship. It's some new FAA or TSA requirement. Seems kinda silly, actually. Since I haven't ever seen my birth certificate, I requested a duplicate copy from King County.
Anyhow, short update because... no flying.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
An interesting new development, he needs to see my passport or birth certificate to verify citizenship. It's some new FAA or TSA requirement. Seems kinda silly, actually. Since I haven't ever seen my birth certificate, I requested a duplicate copy from King County.
New thing that just started. CFI is responsible for student verification.
Get a copy of "Aeronautical Chart User's Guide." Excellent learning/reference tool.
If ever have problems finding something at your fbo, try this place http://www.san-val.com/main.htm
They're over at Van Nuys.
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Went flying yesterday, very interesting experience as it was raining. It was light rain, visibillity 5 miles, so we taxied to the runup and, after completing preflights, I radioed for a closed left pattern. This means I'd take off, then turn left after a half a minute or so, then turn left again so I was flying alongside the airport. Finally, I'd start my descent and come in and land again in a closed rectangle that's maybe a few miles long.
So I got clearance and began my takeoff. It was raining, and it was fascinating to watch the water blow off my windshield as the propeller spun up to speed. I passed 60 knots and pulled back the yoke to take off like usual. As I took off, a wind gust blew me to one side unexpectadly. I recovered and got a compliment from my instructor. I continued my climb, noticing the differences in feel. The cold air meant that the plane performed great and climbed quickly, but the rain meant I couldn't use my normal landmarks (like the horizon) to set my angle of attack. Instead, I glanced at my airspeed indicator and artificial horizon to keep my speed up and wings level.
Santa Monica airport has a noise abatement procedure when taking off from runway 21. After you pass the end of the runway, you make a short left turn until you're over the golf course, then turn back until you're heading for the shore again. This means that most of your low altitude climb will be at least a little away from houses.
I made a left turn at Lincoln boulevard, flew for a 10 count or so, then turned left again for my downwind leg. The airport really looks interesting when its raining. Lots of water flow over the asphalt and taxiways. We were pretty much the only plane flying because of the weather, so as I reached pattern altitude (1,400 feet at SMO) the radio called out that I was cleared to land. When you're the only plane, you get really good service!
I began my descent when I was abeam the tower and turned to base. As I was turning from base to final, my stall horn beeped unexpectadly. I checked the airspeed, and I had somehow slowed to 60 knots! My instructor gave it a little power and mentioned that could have been bad if I had stalled at low altitude. Indeed.
I landed pretty well, then taxied off the runway to a stop. Immediately, the radio crackled to life and the tower said "Cherokee five eight sierra, stay with me and clear to taxi to two one." The controller must have been bored because he told us not to switch to the ground frequency and sent us back to the runway for another takeoff without us even asking for it. As we pulled up to the runway, he radioed "Cherokee five eight sierra, clear for takeoff." Again, without us even asking. I took off and landed like this a few more times, each time getting clearances without having to ask. On my final landing, I pulled off the runway and stopped. The tower cleared me for taxi to the runway again, and this time my instructor radioed back "I think we'll **** it down for today and taxi to lower southeast." Tower cleared us, so I radioed back 'taxi to lower southeast, five eight sierra goodday.'
At ground school I learned about transponder codes. 7700 was emergency, I already knew, but I also learned about 7600 (radio out, so they know to route traffic around me) and 7500, which means "I am being hijacked by an amateur." It used to just mean "I am being hijacked", but my instructor noted that it's probably not that easy to pull off anymore because hijackers these days know about things like that. Hence, my interpretation.
I found something cool, I can actually watch a recording of sorts of my flight online. If I go to http://www4.passure.com/lax.html and select 'January 8, 2005 at 10:16 AM' and watch the Santa Monica airport (which is a few inches above LAX (which is in the center of the page)) you'll see a plane suddenly appear after about half a minute. Click on it, and it will say 'General Aviation' and list the altitude. I was able to watch myself takeoff, do the dogleg over the golf course, and do my pattern flight to landing. A few minutes after landing, I take off again, and so on repeated. It's amazing what technology can do.
Today, weather wasn't so great. Rain, visibility five, but a ceiling of 1,000 feet. Since I need to climb to 1,400 to do even a pattern flight, it was right out. Instead, learned about weather and things like katacraptic winds (or something like that).
Hopefully it will clear up tomorrow. My intstructor thinks that, because of all the rain and groundschool we've had lately, I'll probably get to do mostly just flying this week. Hot diggity!
I also went out and bought my first green airport book, the one that lists all the info for all airports nationally that I use for planning.
In the meantime, DAMN YOU RAIN! (shakes fist at ceiling)
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Had a great flight today. LA has been hit by some severe storms over the last few days, but today it cleared up and looked great. Of course, there was a lot of wind, but it was still a good day to fly, especially compared to the last few.
I made a different radio call, "Santa Monica Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra holding short of runway two one, request climbing two seventy."
I took off with something like a 20-25 knot crosswind, and that was a wild ride. We had climbed past 1,000 before hitting the end of the runway, the plane went up like an elevator. I made a right turn at the shoreline and circled back over the airport in a climbing, 270 degree spiral. As I leveled out at 3,500 feet, I was heading straight for Los Angeles International Airport. I aimed for the middle of the airport and set my transponder to 1201 and tuned in 128.95mhz and called out 'LAX corridor, Cherokee 8258 Sierra on southeast transition at thirty five hundred feet, one mile north of LAX.' This was the first time I flew south instead of north, and it was amazing. I flew over LAX in a special corridor that's set aside for general aviation, and it was an incredible new experience. I flew over the airport and was looking down at 747s landing, other big planes taxiing, and truly, it was spectacular.
I exited the corridor and we flew over near Long Beach and did some review maneuvers of things I hadn't done in a long time, and I nailed 'em all. It was very satisfying. The steep turns (45 degrees) were still disconcerting, but I was able to pull them off without problems. The view of the harbor was great too, I look forward to being able to snap a bunch of pictures.
I did some more time under the hood and did good at maintaining altitude during things like turns, then did some climbing and descending turns by instrument only. I'm feeling really comfortable with these skills and I know that if a cloud forms in front of me that I can't dodge, I'll be able to safely turn around and fly out, even if I can't see. It's not the same as an instrument rating, but it's just enough to hopefully get out of trouble and trust the gauges.
I climbed to 4,500 feet (the altitude for the northwest transition corridor over LAX) and called out my location and intention. A minute later, we hear another call on the radio from a Cessna that's making the same transition, and he gives basically the same location where we're at. Puzzled, my instructor calls back to him 'Cessna, where are you?' He responds 'Assuming you're the Cherokee transmitting, I'm at your, uh, 8'oclock.' I turn and look over my shoulder, and just coming into view past the control surfaces is a Cessna 172, and he's close. It was like we were flying in formation, he had to be less then 100 away. My instructor radios back "Oh yeah, we see you." Technically, since we were the plane on the right, we should have had right away, but he ended up passing us, thankfully while diverging.
I began the descent once we left the corridor, watching for traffic that might be entering the corridor at 3,500 coming right at us. Out over Brentwood I made a 270 degree descending turn to my left and entered the downwind pattern with landing clearance. The winds were really picking up, and it was an exciting approach. Winds were over 20 with gusts to 30 at the runway, so I asked the instructor to assist with the landing. We came down and floated a while, and bounced a bit, but since most of the wind was coming right at us, we ended up touching down at a really low ground speed. As I drove off the runway, I commented that I had taxied faster then we had landed, and the instructor agreed, noting the effect that winds have.
As we taxied back to the parking, my instructor went over what we did in the flight and said that he was really happy to see me doing all the maneuvers so good after such a long gap. I felt pretty darn good too, and we taxied and parked the plane.
Spent more ground school talking about the weather. The whole thing is making a lot more sense to me now. Before, I knew basically what cold and warm fronts did, but now I've got a good idea on how storms are created, and how to plan my flights to keep an eye on things like cloud formation.
Also learned a neat trick in my book. If I know the dewpoint and the temperature, there's a simple equation I can do that will give an altitude of where to expect clouds. I tried it out, and it works. It's the damndest thing!
sKool iz gud!
I asked my instructor to take some pictures, I'll post 'em soon.
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Here are some pics from flying:
http://hallert.net/misc/flying01-11-05/index.htm
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Chairboy, I did my long X/C VUO-->EUG-->SLE-->VUO
Stopped for 11 gallons of 100LL & an order of fries (Roscoe's Landing) at SLE. Big fun, easy VFR navigation & a transition through the PDX class C...VUO is the world's oldest continuously operating airport & they have a nice muesem there a quarter mile walk from the transient parking area. Tillamook has a great museum also. So does McMinnville.
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I thought College Park, MD was.
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CGS was shut down for several months when the TFR was put over DC, even now it is a farce of a public airport. SFAR 94 expires soon, so hopefully CGS will be fixed back to it's former glory. Great Museum there & an excellent library also.
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Ah...I am one of those who will gladly 'forget' about the TFR around DC and not count that as the airport not operating.
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Hey Jigsaw,
Sorry to respond this late. But we use GFMS (globle flight management system) In the L1011 and DC-10 we had a HT-9100 by honeywell and in the B-767 we have the pegasus.
I can also talk about overwater opps if you want in RVSM airspace, to give you some Idea what its all about.
Striaga
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Today was a great flight! I flew up the coast to Camarillo, first time I landed at another airport. On short final, there was an agriculture helicopter right under my glide slope that wasn't talking to tower, so that was a bit hairy. I just increased power and climbed over him to stay well clear, then got back into the glide path and landed without incident.
Weather was great, skies clear and low winds. I'd fly in this weather anytime!
We taxied back to the beginning of the runway, admiring the prairie dogs or whatever those rodents were that lived between taxiways, then held short of runway 21. I requested clearance, and they had me hold there as a bunch of traffic suddenly appeared out of nowhere. We had to wait like 5 minutes while some guy in an experimental chattered back and forth with the tower, then at least three other planes landed before he cleared me. I took off, did a closed left pattern loop around the airport, then did my first touch and go. After taking off, headed back up the 101 to Malibu canyon, then crossed over to the ocean. Instructor had me do the mountain crossing under the instrument hood and gave me various altitude adjustments and heading changes to keep me occupied. Over Pacific Palisades, I started an uneventful approach and landing into Santa Monica.
Great stuff, and my instructor told me to go ahead and get my medical out of the way because I'm just about ready to solo.
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Little story. I am under the hood working on my instrument rating. Just the instructor and me in the mighty 172 headed out to the practice area. As we switch from tower to practice area and make the call, we get a response from another group in a 152 headed our way in the same practice area. Now I am under the hood and not supposed to be looking out, the instructor is the safety pilot and scanning for traffic. When I hear the call the hairs stand up on the back up my neck, they are in our area and headed toward us and I am head down, not a comfy feeling. After 2 exchanges between my aircraft and the other and neither one seeing each other something makes me look up. As I do, I see a 152 headed straight for me, I tell the instructor I have the plane and make a pretty sharp turn and dive a little to get out of the way. The 152 screams over head and we continue on with me muttering something under my breath.
When we get back on the ground after the flight and talk to the other guys, no one except me had seen it. Now its 4 licensed pilots, 2 intructors with a minimum of 2k hours each and another pilot during some commercial license work. The only guy to see and avoid the collision is the one who is supposed to be under the hood. Still love the hell out of it though.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Here are some pics from flying:
http://hallert.net/misc/flying01-11-05/index.htm
Chairboy, you bear an amazing resemblance to Andy C.. a pilot I flew with back in '89 in Tennessee. He was from North Carolina though. A crazy guy, loved low flying, aerobatics, fast driving and Ford Mustangs. I have some great photos of Mississippi barges taken at nought feet and from upside down Cessnas. Fearless until he saw even a small amount of blood at which point he passed out cold. I guess he's flying for the airlines unless he augered in from some of hairier exploits lol.
If you turn out half as a good a pilot as him you'll be doing well. The physical resemblance is remarkable.
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http://hallert.net/misc/flying01-11-05/index.htm (http://hallert.net/misc/flying01-11-05/index.htm)
The fifth picture in showing LAX if you look at the second terminal from the left terminal 2, you will see a plane at the left corner it looks really white, thats the plane I fly for Hawaiian Airlines B-767-300ER.
Straiga
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Nice!
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ah...I am one of those who will gladly 'forget' about the TFR around DC and not count that as the airport not operating.
Don't live in a fantasy world.
Think of it as unfortunate but true.
That TFR has been their for over 3 years & isnt going away anytime soon.
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Just had another great lesson! I'm gonna do two today, 45 minutes until I leave work to fly at lunch.
I taxied to the hold short line and waited like 5 minutes because a bunch of traffic was coming in. Finally took off and climbed out to the Pacific before turning right and following the shoreline.
I flew into the valley, descended to 1,000 above ground, and did some review S-turns around some big road near Chatsworth, then my instructor demonstrated 'turns around a point'. Basically, there's a resevoir/lake in the valley that's empty now that has a tree in the middle. He flew us around it and demonstrated how to keep the tree motionless in relation to the tip of the wing.
When it was my turn, I started out good, but ended up spiraling in a little bit until the tree was under my wingtip. I tried a couple times and did OK, but that tree kept creeping towards me. My instructor asked me why, and I told him that there must be a wind coming from over there (I pointed) and that I'm not shallowing out my turn slightly to account for the increased lift. He seemed impressed and commented that not only was that correct, but he could tell I had really been reading the book and remembering things. He said it's good to have a student to knows WHY something he did went wrong.
After a bit, we turned back towards Santa Monica and he put me under the hood again for about 5 minutes. During that time, he had me turn to new headings while climbing and descending, and I nailed 'em all.
When I took the hood off, he said "Ben, I'm not seeing anything I'm not liking. You're nailing all of this and doing great, and I can tell you've really been studying." Boy howdy, it felt good to hear that!
I flew into Santa Monica airspace and requested clearance for a touch & go. They told me to enter with right traffic but didn't clear me, so we did. I still hadn't heard from him when I was about to come abeam of the tower (I was getting ready to call in and report my position) when he cleared a jet for take off, then asked me to do a 360 turn so the jet turbulence could dissipate.
So I turned left and did a full circle, using the office building I work in as a reference point. I mentioned this to my instructor, and he seemed pleased that I was applying my lesson.
I got clearance for my touch and go and came in on a normal descent. Landed good, took off again, and climbed back up to circle left of the airport. There was a lot of traffic again, and the tower ended up telling us to extend our downwind leg so he had time to clear it all up.
When I got cleared, I turned and began my approach. My instructor didn't touch the controls, and I touched down PERFECTLY. I'm talking so smooth, it was hard to tell that we were on the ground. My instructor said "Niiiiiiiice. Guess I don't have to teach you how to land!" I told him he had done a good job teaching me already.
So, gonna do as much work as possible, then bust out of here to fly again in a little bit.
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I would expect him to cut you solo in the next lesson or two. Sounds like you are ready.
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Chair don't solo. We were just kidding aviation is all a ploy to get folks to take a lesson, hate it and then leave. Nobody ever lives through their solo and I didn't want to tell you. I've come to like you and your enthusiasm so much I just had to tell you.
PLEASE don't do it, please!
Been nice knowin' ya.
Golfer
Just be sure to dress nice. A nice shirt is important. If you solo and look like a slob, you are going to fly forever like a slob. Like days in High School when we had golf matches, we had to dress nice. Shirt, Tie, Dress pants ect ect...same goes for your solo. If you look nice, you will fly nice.
Godspeed...errr...nice knowin...errr...may the force...errr...
Have fun with it :)
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You idiot, you told him.
Spielberg is gonna kill us
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Heh heh, I'll be sure to wear a super nice shirt.
I probably won't solo before I leave for Eugene tomorrow evening, but maybe the week I get back. I still haven't gotten my medical out of the way, forgot about it.
And yeah, I'll be sure to wear my nicest shirt. :D
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Quick sitrep on todays second lesson. I flew closed left pattern and did some short approaches. Very interesting, full flaps and idle really makes it a quick descent. I then flew to Van Nuys and landed at the Van Nuys airport. Camarillo yesterday, Van Nuys today. This was educational as I got to see a two parallel runway setup. I landed on 16R the first time, then taxied around and took off from 16L and did three touch & gos. Then I flew back over the 405 along the Sepulveda pass and landed.
Between this morning and my lunch break, I did 2.8 hours of flying today! I'm up around 13 hours now, I think, and LOVING IT!
If you've ever been interested in flying, don't wait any longer. This is just too fun.
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This is probably the most interesting thread on the boards at the moment. For me anyway. ;)
Keep up the sitreps Chairboy, entertaining stuff. Someday I'll get my watermelon together and take some lessons myself.
Out of interest, would you mind divulging how much it costs per lesson over your way? The cheapest I have seen over here is about £70, somewhere around $130 I think.
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Typical hourly aircraft rental is between $55-$100 USD.
$55 for a C-152 on up to $100 for a brand new 172.
Any more you're getting ripped off. Really at $100 for the 172 you're getting raped but some schools only offer that.
The flight school I worked at rents 172K, N and P models for 68/hr. A 172R is 86. 172RG 82. Mooney M20J (My main get-around rental) is listed at $110 but I get it at a reduced rate due to the hours I fly it.
As an employee (There is always the option to work or even volunteer for a shift/week in exchange for reduced rental rates) I got to rent the 172s for $51/hr.
Instructor rates range from $20-30/hr for private instruction, and you can work out a deal with a 'freelance' instructor for $15-20.
Say the typical renter at our flight school wants a lesson, typically scheduled is a 2 hr block with 1.2-1.5hrs flight time
Figure 1.4 hrs @ $68/hr = $95.20
Dual 1.4 hrs @ $26/hr = $36.40
+ tax looking at $140 per a typical lesson.
Thats a good budget number I give to prospective pilots because you won't always fly the full 1.4hrs especially as an initial student. Fatigue sets in around 1.0 early on, you're absorbing a lot of information and too much flying can be overwhelming.
If you budget for it, that figure will have you coming out in the black in Ohio.
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I didnt realise there was that much to it :)
Im not sure how the one down my way is set up, I just seen the massive billboard advert saying 'Learn to Fly - £79' (hehe just as I was typing that I remembered it actually cost £79, not £70).
Since it actually says that, I would imagine the £79 covers both the plane and instructor. I'll try to check it out.
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Glas, that's probably the same as the $49 http://www.beapilot.com discovery flight. Usually lasts about half an hour.
172 rates in SoCal are in the $120 range. When I got my PPL in '98 it was $57 for a 172 and $60 for a Warrior.
I've been looking around lately for a place to get my tailwheel endorsement or maybe seaplane just for something new.
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I'm learning at Santa Monica, which is one of the more expensive airports. I'm not doing it because I'm rich, but because I know that if I do it elsewhere, I won't be able to fly every day. I'm skipping lunch nowadays to fly, and sometimes flying before work. SMO happens to be right next to my work and where I'm staying.
That said....
I pay $93 an hour for a Piper Cherokee Warrior. 160hp, it's in great shape and super clean. With the power, it climbs fast, so I get to pattern and maneuvering altitude fast which helps with the lessons. If I spent the whole time climbing, I'd probably be unhappy.
I also pay $45 an hour for the instructor.
It's a real kick flying out of this airport, there's a lot of history there. I know they built the DC-3s and C-47s there, and I think they made B-25 bombers there too. Casablanca tarmac scene? Filmed there. With a fake DC-3 of all things.
It's also a great place to learn because of the busy skies. I've learned a real respect for scanning. If I learned out of a podunk airport, I'd probably go through the gestures my instructor taught me for looking for traffic, but with the class D airspace wrapped in LAX's warm embrace with all the other fields, I was able to actually SEE traffic to avoid during my learning phase, so now I'm constantly scanning with my brain fully engaged because I've received feedback. Don't know if that makes sense.
It's really incredible, no time like the present. Find some way to set aside a chunk of money and do a block of lessons. It's really rewarding.
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120 for 172s model 110 for r model where I go. Its way to high. The just put a p model I think it us up for rent at 85 an hour. Diamond stars are also 120 an hour, blech. Instructors are 30 an hour here.
Look into a flying club, the prices drop dramatically when you do, 172s for around 45 an hour, weeeee.
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Today was my last day of flying before I go up to be with my family for a week, and it was a good lesson.
I got there at a quarter to 9 and went up to the classroom. It was locked, no instructor there. So I walked out and looked for the plane I train in, it was missing.
I started to second guess myself. "Did I have a 9 AM appointment this morning? Or was it later?" I waited a few more minutes, then called my instructor's cell phone. As it started ringing, I hear an engine rev up and I look over at the parking spot, and five eight sierra (the plane I fly) was just making its final turn into the parking spot right at the stroke of 9. That thing is quiet, I didn't see it taxiing!
So I preflight and we take off. Over Malibu, my instructor reaches over and pulls my throttle back to idle and says "Your engine just quit". I retrimmed for 73 knots and pointed out a field I wanted to land at and turned towards it. Then I began my checklist fly gliding over to the field. After pointing at the things I would try to get the engine running, I made a simulated radio call on 121.5mhz of "Mayday mayday mayday, Cherokee 8258 Sierra over Malibu, engine failure with two souls onboard, making emergency landing at Pepperdine" and performed my shutdown checklist. I told him to secure his seatbelt, looked for indicators of wind, then told him to open his door slightly (so that if the airframe buckles, the door isn't jammed shut). I eyeballed the field and extended my downwind a little bit, then turned towards it when it felt right. I glided straight towards it. When I told my instructor which field I was aiming at, we both realized he assumed I had pointed at another field and was gonna tell me I'd miss it, but when we clarified, he said I was on a good approach. He throttled us up and I turned away and climbed out over the ocean, (simulated) emergency over.
We did it again and I made it through the list faster (he told me I'm a bit chatty with the list, I should just go bam bam bam over each item when on my checkride. Good shot on the second failure, so he had me fly back to Santa Monica.
As we approached Santa Monica, some yahoo in a Bonanza was coming right at us. I moved over a little to give him some room. We made our call to tower and entered the pattern, and meanwhile this other plane turns around behind us (right in a real traffic hotspot and putting his belly to oncoming traffic so he couldn't see anyone) and begins closing in on us slowly as he enters the pattern too. I enter the pattern while watching him get closer and closer. I ask my instructor what call we should make, and he radios "Cherokee 58 sierra making a 360, close traffic." But the airport has radar and radios back "Negative, negative, make wide downwind leg" and he clears the other guy to land with a short approach ahead of us. We shrug and angle away from him and watch him do his approach. I follow another plane in and make a standard landing.
As we taxi back to runway 21, we pass the Bonanza that had cut us off and my instructor says 'there he is, let's flip him off'. We both laugh and do it in our minds, the guy is a real jerky.
We take off again, and then I spend an hour doing touch and goes with different approaches. More short approaches, I do some go arounds, then I do some landings without flaps. That plane really doesn't want to land without flaps, I have to almost bend the throttle back to idle it enough to set down.
It was a good day of flying, and now I'm at work staring at a computer but dreaming I'm flying.
My instructor says I'm ready to solo, and that I don't have any bad habits. This next week, I'll try to get my physical done in Eugene so I can solo when I get back. Yeehaw, and yikes at the same time!
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Originally posted by jigsaw
Glas, that's probably the same as the $49 http://www.beapilot.com discovery flight. Usually lasts about half an hour.
172 rates in SoCal are in the $120 range. When I got my PPL in '98 it was $57 for a 172 and $60 for a Warrior.
I've been looking around lately for a place to get my tailwheel endorsement or maybe seaplane just for something new.
Maybe you never noticed, but my prices were in £, since im in Scotland :)
Converting to $, it would be around $140-150, which would seem about the same price you guys are paying.
A question Chairboy:
Would you consider your experience flying in sims has helped, hindered, or done nothing at all for you?
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Originally posted by Glas
Would you consider your experience flying in sims has helped, hindered, or done nothing at all for you?
Definately helped. Whether I knew it or not I had at least a basic understanding of aerodynamics, certain behaivors and an understanding of inherent behaivors of airplanes.
The biggest training aid one can use nowadays would be Microsoft Flight Sim. It's incredible the detail they put into the game regarding real-life landmarks (damn near every tower is accounted for) and radio aids. Every approach is published, in fact there are some that are correct in flight sim that aren't even published on sectionals by the government. 3KY9 being one of them, Miles Field in Kentucky.
I use the CH Flight Sim Yoke with Mixture/Prop/Throttle control when I use flight sim. I try to spend at least one flight/day in flight sim. Like a LOFT scenario, all failures are hot and random. (LOFT=Line Oriented Flight Training) I always have something different happen and I made a very generic flight-sim checklist for certain airplanes. There are some times you can't do certain things (feathering an engine for example) without clicking on a button to view the throttle quadrant, so thats on the checklist as well.
As part of my regular CFII work, I am going to incorporate flight sim into the lessons simply because you can see the way things work without relying only on theory until you get into the airplane. I did this, and it helped me tremendously with procedures. Holding patterns, using an HSI for the first time and even some single-engine stuff while training for a multi-engine rating all came naturally in the airplane when practiced in the simulator first. This saves MUCHO-Dollar-o's.
My first flight with an HSI was as PIC in an airplane I'd only had the briefest of brief checkouts in prior to flying it on a long IFR trip. The airplane was a Piper T-Tail Lance. Well equipped, with a multifunction display and autopilot. I felt very comfortable with the avionics (I'd use the avidyne and S-Tec equipment before) and the HSI came naturally. So, Flight sim can work to help you out.
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Originally posted by Glas
Would you consider your experience flying in sims has helped, hindered, or done nothing at all for you?
No doubt about it, it has DEFINATELY helped. My instructor would give me a maneuver, and I'd get it the first time. I'd also be able to answer theoretical questions he'd throw at me based on experiences I had in X-Plane (my sim of choice).
On more then one occasion, my instructor has said that he can tell I used to fly R/C and use simulators because of how quick I pick up on things and how I already understand most of the basics of flight. It's not a substitutde for real flying, but it helps your head get wired properly.
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I thought you would reply as you did.
Alot of people I know who fly flight sims (I fly regularly in WBFH) and also fly for RL, say that there is no comparison between the two. But there was never any doubt in my mind that sims give you a good grounding.
I just felt the need to get the views of someone who was experiencing the real deal for the first time :)
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There is no way to compare the feeling of actually piloting an aircraft and any experience in a simulator. The simulator, as you said gives a foundation. The actual experience of flight is completely unique.
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I just got back from another trip up north to be with my family, so after a week on the ground, I was raring to fly again.
I get to the airport, and it's all sunny, but I don't notice that it's also really hazy and visibility is pretty low. By the time we get to the plane, it's up to 4 miles, but there's a haze over everything.
I take off, and because of the haze, I really needed to use my instruments because my usual landmarks (the beach, mountains, etc) are out of view. The only reason we flew was because we could fly under special VFR if it got worse, but for class D airspace, we were ok. I probably wouldn't solo in it as a pilot, though. An aside, we did a short lesson on special VFR in the classroom, and I was able to ask a question that merited a review of the FAR (it's the book of laws related to flight). My question was how to do special VFR at an uncontrolled airport, and it turns out you can't. Anyhow, back to flying: I flew up the coast to malibu, then did some stalls to review, then he had me do stalls under the hood.
It was a very different sensation, stalling under the hood, because the plane starts to shudder and the horn starts hooting, then it drops out and I had to use my artificial horizon to stay oriented during recovery. Did a few of those, and that was good.
Had a chance to tell some humorous ATC I'd read about on the internet (for example, the F-16 asking for immediate clearance to land because his engine was running peaked and being told that he was #2 behind a B-52 that had to shut down one of its engines. He responds, "Ah yes, the dreaded seven engine approach.")
Then I did some steep turns (45 degrees) over the Santa Monica Mountains to review, and he had me do THAT under the hood too. In some ways, it was easier to do that under the hood because I wasn't staring straight down at the ground.
I landed and went to work. This afternoon, I went back, and we did closed pattern flying. This is just taking off, turning, flying back along the airport, then landing, like a box.
I take off and as I passed 1,000 feet and was turning left to get into the crosswind leg, he pulls the throttle back to idle and says 'You just lost your engine.'
So I got the plane to 73-ish knots (the best glide speed of the Piper Cherokee) and looked for where to land. I looked back at the runway, and decided there was no way to make it there, so I started looking for other places. We're over Mar Vista/Venice, so it's really dense. I point out Venice High School's football field and say "I think I'll go there" and turn towards it. He says "I think I see kids on the field, and we don't have a horn on this." So I decide to put it down on Venice blvd instead. I begin my descent for a few seconds before he gives me back power and lets me climb up to the pattern altitude. In retrospect, I should have turned right and headed for the beach if it were a real emergency, but the thought never occurred to me because I was really worried (at the time) about pissing off ATC. In a real emergency, I hope I'd be able to put their concerns second so I could get down safe.
We do some landings, then some touch and goes. As I'm taking off one time, he pulls back the throttle a little and says 'your engine is sputtering', and I pull it back to idle and begin to angle off the runway before he tells me to go ahead and take off, so I throttle up and take off again.
The most exciting moment was a few minutes later when, on the downwind leg, he throws open the door and yanks the airplane onto its side and says 'We've just had a midair collision! Control your plane!' So I straighten up the plane and look for the airport. He asks 'Is it still flyable?' and I affirm, so I begin setting up for an emergency landing. I begin my descent, now that I know where I am in relation to the airport. Meanwhile, the cabin is full of noise because we're going about 90-100mph and the air is rushing around inside. I turn to final and my instructor suddenly says 'Oh crap!'. I ask him what happened, and he says the hood (that he has me wear for instruments) got sucked out the door. It's pretty funny, and I have to laugh. This lightweight plastic hood probably fluttered to the ground and looks so alien, nobody who's not a pilot who picks it up will have any idea what it is.
I come in a little high, so I do a couple of full slips to lose some altitude, then land us.
Tomorrow morning, we're gonna do some more full engine failures so I can do the whole checklist and on Wednesday, I fly with the owner of the airplanes. He wants to see me fly before he sends me up alone in a $60,000 airplane (I guess that's reasonable), then I'll be ready to solo.
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That sounds like an exciting flight, Chairboy & thanks for keeping this thread alive, it is one of my favorites. Get yourself a pair of Foggles for "hood" training. They're a real rippoff at about $20 (probably cost less than $0.20 to make), but every minute in the air costs (maybe about $1-2 for the plane & 0.50 - 1$ for the CFI) & they go on in about 2 seconds against about 30 for a hood...The guy who was my private pilot & instrument CFI has a Ph.D in economics gave me this analysis
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Nothing exciting in this one, just a couple of routine flights.
This morning, I flew to Van Nuys airport and did a touch & go, then flew back to Santa Monica.
In the afternoon, I showed up early and did a full pre-flight because I hadn't done one in a while (the instructor had done the external preflights on a few recent flights). I flew out to Malibu and did a pretty exciting maneuver. It's called an 'emergency descent', and the idea is to drop altitude as fast as possible (for instance, if there's a fire or a passenger with a heart attack, etc).
I set full flaps, power all the way to idle, point the nose down like 45 degrees and turn the plane sideways slightly. The plane drops like a freaking rock, the climb indicator is pegged at 2,000 feet per minute. I get the plane up to 100+ knots and am slowly spiraling down until he tells me to go ahead and recover, so I do. I climb up and do it again. Pretty scary, but good to know how to do.
Then he gives me an engine failure without warning. I set up my speed, find my landing spot, and go through my checklist while gliding towards Cross Creek (at the foot of Pepperdine University) before he tells me to head back to Santa Monica. I fly back (it's all hazy, but I know where the airport is) and land like normal. At one point, ATC is calling for me to follow a Mooney in, but I can't find it because of the haze. The controller is watching the weather pretty good and calls our base when she sees the traffic pass us (and THEN we see it, figures), and the landing is pretty standard.
I did some ground school, worked on my pre-solo exam, and we'll finish it tomorrow morning. Tomorrow afternoon, I go up with the owner so he can see I know how to safely fly pattern work, then sometime after that I'll solo! I'm pretty sure it'll be before the end of the week, weather permitting.
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So yesterday I was scheduled to go fly with the owner of the company for a final checkout before my solo. I call ATIS and hear that there are scattered clouds at 1100, but they look to be mostly clear of the airport, so, we can fly.
I meet with the owner, he does a quick verbal quiz to check my understanding of various concepts, then we go out to the plane. I do a full preflight, then start it up. It's running, and I tune into ATIS.
"Santa Monica Tower, you have information Lima. Visibility 5, Winds 220 at 4, blah blah blah, clouds 1200 broken-" whaza? Since I had listened a few minutes earlier, the clouds went from scattered to broken, and if they're gonna be like that, I need them at 1,700 feet above ground minimum, so I have to shut down the plane and reschedule.
This morning, ATIS tells a different story. Scattered clouds at 4,000, visibillity 10, slight tailwind on the active runway, but it's all good. I do my preflight, the owner walks up as I'm finishing the inside preflight, and we head off. His teaching style is definately different from my instructor, but the difference is really useful because there are some tiny gaps on both sides in terms of what they teach, so it's really good.
I get clearance to taxi to the runway, then get clearance to take off, and finally, we're up in the air!
I do closed left traffic around the airport and do two full stop landings w/ taxi back to the runway. After two flights, he says he's satisfied and we can wrap it up. I ask for one more flight (I've got time before I need to show up at work) and we do it. On this flight he covers my airspeed indicator (which is new) and has me land without it, and I pull if off no problem. In fact, I forget to extend my third notch of flaps (I got in the habit of full flaps landings) and my touchdown is glass smooth. He mentions that he usually lands w/ two for smoothness, so, that's a good thing to know.
I park the plane and he tells me he likes what he's seeing. He likes the fact that I'm methodical in the cockpit and says that people who are tense and moving their limbs fast and stuff kinda scare him, and he likes how I think things through and do them smoothly.
I called my instructor afterwards and scheduled a flight for this afternoon. The weather might get dodgy, but I'm hoping it's good. There's a slight chance I might solo, and I'm hoping it'll be sooner rather then later, as I'm running out of shirts I wouldn't mind being cut.
In regards to that, there's a tradition at some flight schools (don't know if it's at this one or not, but better safe then sorry) of, when you complete your first solo, they cut the shirt tails off. The story is that in the old days, the trainer would sit behind the student and, since they didn't have intercoms, would tug on the students shirttails to get their attention. By cutting the shirttails off, you're symbolically saying that the instructor doesn't need that 'handle' anymore.
Wish me luck!
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Show your contempt for that age old tradition and wear that fine silk shirt in for your solo. It'll be fine.
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Took off this afternoon, and did two touch & goes, then my instructor told me to do a full stop. So I land and he tells me to taxi over to a hangar by their office. He tells me I'm gonna solo! He runs over to grab the handheld scanner so he can listen to me, and I get clearance and taxi.
While I'm taxiing, I keep saying "Holy shit, I'm alone in the aircraft". I get my clearance to take off, so I methodically check to make sure my transponder is on, mixture is set, lights and fuel pump are on, then wheel it out onto the runway and go full throttle.
The plane jumps ahead and tears down the concrete. I check my gauges like usual and then, at around 65 knots IAS, I pull back and take off.
ALONE.
The plane shoots up like a rocket, I've got half fuel (it hadn't been refueled in a while, half fuel is like 3 hours of flight) and no instructor, between the two that's like 300lbs difference from usual. The plane climbs faster then before, and it's GREAT!
I turn left at Lincoln, always watching for traffic outside, then checking my gauges inside. My altitude is winding up, holy crap, I'm already at 1,100 feet when usually I'm at 800! I end up leveling out at the pattern altitude (1,400 feet MSL) before I turn to the downwind leg, so like 20 seconds before I usually do. On my downwind leg, the controller radios me. "Cherokee 8258 Sierra, you're cleared for the option on two one."
I radio back "Santa Monica Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra, I'd like a full stop please." Technically, I don't have to ask for this because 'The option' allows for me to do a pass, touch & go, or full stop landing, but I figure that by telling her what I'm doing, she doesn't have to watch me when I'm down.
"Cherokee 58 Sierra, thanks, cleared for landing two one."
I wait until I'm abeam the white marks on the runway and begin my descent. As I pass the I-405, I turn left so I'm heading perpendicular to the runway, then I turn left again near the I-405/I-10 interchange and line up with the runway. I get a big crosswind up there and say out loud "Oh great, a crosswind landing on my first solo." I'm not enthusiastic, because crosswind landings are something I don't have a lot of practice with, but as I drop below 800 feet, it disapears.
I check the PAPI lights and see that I'm above the glideslope, so I throttle back and add another notch of flaps, and it turns out I was right next to it, I barely have to adjust at all to get a mix of red and white lights.
I bring the plane down towards the runway. About 10 feet above the runway I go full idle on the engine and pull back to flare like usual, but the plane is so light, it actually starts to go back up a couple feet. I bring it down right away and fly a few inches above the ground, slowly pulling the yoke back as I slow down until the stall horn just starts to hoot a little, then the wheels touch down.
It's the smoothest, best landing I've ever done.
I taxi off the runway, get clearance from the tower to taxi where I want, then do my post landing checklist and taxi over to pick up my instructor.
He shook my hand and congratulated me, said I did a good job!
I figure it's gotta be a good job if they can re-use the airplane, and I'm happy as a clam.
He took some pictures of me landing, I'll post 'em later.
I'm just below 20 hours, got something like 40-50 landings, and we're going to alternate for a little between solo and instructor flights as he shows me short field takeoffs, soft field landings/takeoffs, night flying, etc. We'll probably be doing things like stalls at night soon, sounds scary, but I'm ready.
So anyhow, YEE-freakin-HAW!
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What went wrong? You lived? Hmm...foiled my plot again.
:)
Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can move the world without the lever now, can't ya. You're a real friggin aviatior...how do ya like that buddy! Well done...enjoy your happy dreams!
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Grats
!
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Just do us favor till you some more hours can you call flight service and let them know when your going flying so all of us can stay out of your airspace. LOL
Way to go congrats.
Straiga
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Well done...personally, I like new pilots, they talk on their radios non-stop, so you always know when they're in the pattern & where.
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Congrats chairboy!
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Here are a couple pictures from my solo:
http://hallert.net/images/Back%20in%20LA,%20flying%20and%20stuff%20024.jpg
Me flaring
http://hallert.net/images/Back%20in%20LA,%20flying%20and%20stuff%20025.jpg
Flying a few inches above the runway, bleeding off speed.
http://hallert.net/images/autopilot.jpg
Well, you know.
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Congratulations Chairboy, made me remember my solo :)
Daniel
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Here are a couple pictures from my solo:
http://hallert.net/images/autopilot.jpg
Well, you know.
lol
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Chairboy, WTFG! I feel like one of the inmates in the assylum must have felt when the Chief broke out, in One Flew Over The Cukoo Nest .
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On Friday, the weather was really borderline, so my instructor and I decided to do some closed traffic work. We're going to alternate between solo and instructor stuff as needed.
There's a wind, something like 7-8 knots, blowing west, so instead of taking off on runway 21 like usual, we take off on runway 3.
As we climbed out of the airport, I looked over to the right and saw a big rainstorm creeping in from the south. It was already over Mar Vista, and there was no way I'd be able to do the downwind leg without coming too close to the cloud.
Since we knew we wouldn't want to turn left and go against traffic, we requested a 270 turn and a landing on 21. So I turn 270 degrees and come in for a landing. Problem is, it's a downwind landing, so I end up landing at like 80 knots. It's pretty neat, and a good demonstration of what a little tailwind can do.
On Saturday, I went to Tijuana to have my implant adjusted. My doctor was 2 hours late, and I knew I was going to be late for my 4:00 PM lesson, so I blasted up the coast. Right when I got into LA, my instructor called to cancel because the winds were really fierce.
This morning, I went and solo'd on my own. I called my instructor and told him what ATIS said the winds/vis were, and he told me to practice closed pattern work.
It was really different doing the pre-flight, startup, and taxi without anyone else in the cockpit. I was talking to myself the whole time I taxied up to the run-up area (where I set my instruments, revved up the engine, etc).
I got my clearance (for closed right traffic, which was unusual, because that's the leg that people usually enter the pattern with (and you don't want to go against traffic). I took off, circled, landed without incident. I sure felt good as I was taxiing back to the runway. On the observation deck, there was a family with their kid watching. I waved as I taxied past, and they all waved back. I felt a real twinge, because I was reminded of how I'm seperated from my family right now, and I really wished it was MY family watching.
As I pulled up to the runway, the tower was clearing people to land and take off left and right, she was super busy, so at one point, she squeezes in a call to me to clear me for takeoff. I radio back "Uh, Santa Monica Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra. Is that takeoff clearance still for right closed traffic?" There's a pause, then 'Cherokee 8258 Sierra, thanks, make that left closed traffic." She's so darn busy up there, I was glad getting the clarification worked out.
So I do three more flights and landings, and each one is better then the last. It was great, super exhilarating.
Afterwards, I parked, tied down the plane, and left a check for the time in the plane.
I went, played some mini-golf with some friends (63 on 18 holes, guess I fly better then I golf). I thought my next lesson was at 3:00 in the afternoon, but my instructor calls me at noon wondering where I am. CRUD! We end up rescheduling for the evening to do a night flight, and I retire to El Toritos to study and drink non-alcoholic blended fruit margaritas.
At 6, I get to the airport and we go out to the plane. I had picked up a flashlight with a red lense from a military surplus store so I could see in the cockpit. He shows me the pilot lounge (which will be my new hangout, no doubt) and all the flight planning tools, which are awesome. I can pull up radar data, weather predictions and more for across the country. It's amazing stuff.
We taxi up to the runway and take off after a jet. It was a Gulfstream V, pretty sweet ride, but a big plane so I had to fly off to the side to avoid their wake turbulence.
I climbed up to 3500 feet and flew over LAX using the special corridor. Over Long Beach, my instructor had me do a steep turn. The steep turn is already one of my least favorite maneuvers, because I feel like I'm gonna fall out of the plane, and it's not super great at night either, but I get it right first time.
He also has me do a power off stall, and I recover good, so that's good.
Next, I go under the (new) hood (remember, the last one got sucked out the door) and do some maneuvering. It's harder then at day, maybe my brain is looking out the corner of my eye or something when I'm turning, dunno.
Finally, I climb up to 4500 to transit back to Santa Monica over LAX in the special rules corridor. North is 4500, south is 3500, so when I hear someone heading south in the 3500, I looked for him and couldn't see him, but then I see another plane at the same altitude as me coming towards me. We figure that the guy got confused about the altitude he was supposed to be at and transited south on the north. He passes a couple hundred feet off to our side. After the corridor, I got my clearances and set up for a landing. I flared late, making my instructor nervous, but set down good.
We taxi back, take off again, and do another landing, which ends up better, except I use my yoke to force the plane down (because I'm high (on the glide slope) and get nervous about doing a full slip on short final) and I end up floating a long time down the runway. My instructor mentions that's a good reason NOT to use the yoke to force the plane down in the landing.
All in all, a good lesson, we're about to start doing cross country flights.
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Last night, we did some practice night flying. Just taking off and landing, over and over again.
This morning, we did something different. He had me study the info for Compton airport and plan a flight there. I get in at 8, we call 1-800-WX-BRIEF to get a weather briefing for the trip, then head out to the plane.
I fly over LAX using the same corridor I usually use, then make a call to Compton. The thing is, there's no tower there, so it was my first flight into an uncontrolled airport. I just make my calls, telling people in the area what I plan on doing, and listen for others to do the same. Theoretically, we can all fly in and out of the airport without running into each other if we're aware of our surroundings and communicating.
I descend towards the airport and make my calls, then turn and come in for landing. It's kinda unnerving, because there's a big building right next to the glide path, so I'm flying at it for a while before turning to final. Compton's runway is a lot shorter then Santa Monica, and nowhere near as wide either (60 feet versus 150 wide), so it's a challenge, but I come in and land it ok. I've got sort of a tendency to fly to the runway and set down without hearing the stall horn, and my instructor really wants me to work on slowing to stall speed as I touch down.
We taxi, take off, do a closed pattern, and the next landing is a little better. "I want to hear that stall horn this time", he tells me. I'm on short final, and begin my flare. I'm a couple feet away from the runway and worried that I'm not gonna set it off, so I pull back hard on the yoke. The stall horn sounds immediately and, since I'm spooked by it, I let off a little yoke pressure. The stall horn goes off, and I finish my landing smoothly and everything, but I get the definate impression that my instructor thinks I cheated because all I did was trigger the stall, then recover.
I vow to do better next time.
We taxi, I get to use a trick he shows me for taking off at uncontrolled airports. I pull up near the hold-short line of the runway and hold down one brake while advancing the throttle, so the plane slowly pirouettes in place. As it does, I scan the sky watching for traffic on various legs, then finally taxi to the runway, announcing my intentions. My instructor had also just told me that he wants me to just do the 'Lights, camera, action' in sequence and ONCE because lately I've been doing each item alone, and checking and rechecking to make sure I've gotten them. This time, I very methodically do it and he nods approvingly. I can really see the value of this, the more I get used to doing it in sequence, the less chance I'll miss something, and the less time I spend with my head in the cockpit triple checking myself when I should be watching outside the plane.
I take off, announce my intention to leave the airport, then head south to avoid Hawthorne airspace.
This time, he wants me to use the Mini-route to cross LAX. This is different from what I've been using in the past because the other route wasn't controlled. It was like a strip of uncontrolled airspace that poked directly across LAX at 3500 and 4500 feet respectively. This new route has me at 2500 feet and I cross the east end of the runway and talk to LAX.
I set my frequencies, and make my call. "LAX Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra enroute for northwest mini-route transition." The tower gives me a custom squawk code, tells me to stay at my altitude, etc, plus the most important "You are clear for class bravo transition". So I fly low over the airport and look out to my side, and there's an Air New Zealand 747 coming in to land right below me. It's quite a view, and really something to see.
As I exit the mini-route, LAX releases me and I call into Santa Monica and do a pretty normal approach and landing.
So, now I've flown in class B airspace, which is the most active, scariest airspace I'll ever fly in. In fact, it's the most active airspace ANYONE can fly in. So I've done Class B, D, E and G airspace for sure, can't remember if I've done class C yet. I won't fly class A until I buy my jet or find a way to get a Cessna/Piper up to 18,000 feet.
Pretty good flight, but I noticed my instructor making a bunch of corrections. After the flight, I was about to ask about it, and he said 'So, now that you've shown you're a good pilot with the big things (like not crashing, flying the plane, etc), I've started working on fixing the little things. You may have noticed, I was calling you on a bunch of things back there, it's just because it's time to start polishing up those tiny things." I told him I was getting worried that I had started backsliding, and he laughed. "No, I won't let you. You're doing fine with the big stuff, it's just time to start working on the little stuff. Don't worry, this is stuff you've been doing all along, you're not back sliding."
So, good lesson. Even if I felt a bit overwhelmed at times, I always aviated first (eg, kept my plane together), so as I get more comfortable with doing things like threading through complicated airspace (going to compton, I had to avoid Torrance, Hawthorn, LAX, and Long Beach airspace, it was a challenge), I'm sure I'll spend less time worrying about my workload and more time enjoying flying.
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Anyone here ever been in the Class G above FL600?
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WTG Chairboy!
Congrats.
I'm waiting for my chance to solo.
Due to lack of funds, I've been flying once every 2 weeks, but I'm just not learning fast enough, so I've upped it to once a week.
I'm at 22 hours now and feel like I'm ready.
I've finished all my pre-solo work and should get my prog check next week.
Still, I must not be ready if I'm still waiting to solo at 22 hours.
It's kind of depressing.
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Originally posted by bunch
Anyone here ever been in the Class G above FL600?
It's E up there.
Muck: Don't get discouraged. Fly the plane when you can. Fly an arm chair when you can't.
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Still, I must not be ready if I'm still waiting to solo at 22 hours.
It's kind of depressing.
Despite what you have heard, there is no race to solo. I read a newsgroup thread where one guy said he soloed back in the 50s after 8 hours, and I started getting anxious. Then I read another thread by someone who hadn't solo'd yet at 40 hours.
Myself, I did it at 20 hours, but I'm also flying every day. If you solo at 25 hours on a 'once every two weeks' training schedule, then you're doing awesome.
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I believe the longer you fly duel with the instructor the better. I was ready to solo at 10 hours in a Cessna (I alreay had solo'd in an ultralight) but the school kept me dual for 17 hours. It was really a non event when I actually did go solo.
You have enough on your mind the first time you fly alone that you really shouldn't be scared ****less as well.
A year later and I now have almost 200 hours and own a 182. I plan on taking it to Sun and Fun this spring. My first big x-country.
Great stories Chairboy. Keep them coming.
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Originally posted by jigsaw
It's E up there....
So it is...I guess i forget all the stuff that doesnt apply to me after i pass the exam
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Originally posted by bunch
So it is...I guess i forget all the stuff that doesnt apply to me after i pass the exam
Don't feel bad. I've gotten so used to filing IFR for everything, that I have to look up cloud clearances for airspace. :D
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I don't think many of us have been at FL600, no matter what the class is there. :)
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In my Jeppeson book, it shows the different airspaces graphically with example aircraft. For instance, class D might show a Cessna 172, Class A shows a widebody Jet, and above FL600, it's a drawing of a space shuttle.
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Chairboy,
Just out of curiosity, why are you doing full-stop patterns when solo instead of touch-and-gos? You can get a lot more bang for your buck if you do touch and go patterns... Less hobbes time on the ground and all that. Once you get let out to do more area solo stuff, you can head out to other airports and practice left and right patterns there without worrying too much about heavy traffic, and the getting there and coming back part can be good practice too.
Digging through my logbook, I found that my initial solo was at 15.1 hours, a .3 solo following a .8 warmup. That was in 1988 at montgomery field, San Diego, where I did all my private pilot training. My checkride was after about 75 hours due to a 2 year break in flight training, and I had 20.1 solo hours by the time of my checkride. My goal had been to solo at 12 hours but I had a few times where I couldn't fly for a couple of weeks, and that put me a bit behind. Almost all of that pre-solo flying was in a cessna 150.
Interesting things can be found in old logbooks :)
Dunno if you guys know who he was, but my civilian check pilot for my PPL was Glen "Pappy" Hesler. He wrote a book about his military experiences called "The heart of the tiger". I'm really lucky to have had the opportunity to fly with him.
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Congrats on you first Solo!!!!
Interestingly, here in Germany there is this tradition that you wear a tie when you have soloed and come to the bar that evening. It gets cut off by all the other guys. You are then honored by being allowed to spend some drinks :)
Its meant to remind you that planes and ties didnt match quite well, comes from the times when you had to hand-start every motor, and when a tie got into the propellor, well, it was unfortunate.
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Originally posted by eagl
Just out of curiosity, why are you doing full-stop patterns when solo instead of touch-and-gos? You can get a lot more bang for your buck if you do touch and go patterns...
I was soloing on a Sunday, and a Santa Monica Municipal, Touch & Gos are prohibited during the weekend or after hours during the week.
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So, I went flying today again, my last flight before a two week trip up north to be with the family again.
We took off and got in the air over the Pacific and my instructor had my tune in a VOR navigation beacon northeast of Santa Monica. I switched NAV2 over to Voice and listened for the morsecode identifier. After a few seconds, it started up and dotted and dashed. I tuned it in and got the needle aligned up just like my instructor taught me on the ground yesterday, and my instructor had me fly towards it.
As we crossed into the valley, my instructor had me tune in the VOR beacon for Camarillo and fly towards it, and got lined up succesfully. It was very rewarding learning this new instrument, now I'll be able to find where I am without relying on them fancy shmancy new GPS units.
We turned around and tracked towards Van Nuys for 10 minutes, enough for me to need to enter a cross-wind correction to stay on course, that went well.
As I was flying the course, my instructor reached over suddenly and pulled the throttle back all the way. "You've just lost your engine."
I immediately trimmed the plane for 73 knots and began looking for a field to set the plane down. I set up a slow turn and began working my way through my checklist. At one point, I stopped my checklist and started looking outside again. "I've got a lot of altitude, so I have time to look for a place to set down. Don't want to put it down on a road unless I have to." My instructor nodded his head and agreed. I picked a field and began setting up for it, then continued my checklist. I simulated my emergency call, etc, and as I was on final to the field, he throttled us back up and I climbed back up to cross the mountains to Malibu.
He had me put on the hood so I couldn't see out the plane, then told me to close my eyes and start spelling words outloud as he threw the plane around the sky. He did rolls to either side, sharp turns, put it into a sharp climb and steep dives, then finally put the plane on a dive and at an angle and told me to open my eyes and recover using intsruments alone.
I chopped the throttle, leveled the wings, and pulled out of the dive. He did this a few more times, leaving me at different angles and I got out quickly each time.
Then he had me line up with the Santa Monica VOR beacon and fly towards it. I got clearance, entered the pattern, and began my approach. The instructor took over for the landing so he could demonstrate a short field landing. He brought in, right above stall, and set it down with almost no float and said that's how I should do it.
I take off using the short field takeoff steps (full throttle, release the brakes, two notches flaps, etc) and do a pattern around the airport. As I'm on the downwind leg, I hear the tower trying to get ahold of a jet. "Jet 123, where are you?" He calls. After a few seconds, he repeats. My instructor and I start looking around kinda worried. Is there a jet nearby that's not talking to anyone? Finally, the jet calls in, and it turns out that it's taxiing up to the runway. I'm on base when the tower tells the jet to take off immediately. He isn't even on the runway yet as I'm turning to final, and I say to my instructor "This isn't going to work." The jet turns onto the runway ahead of me, but it's still not moving. I start doing S-turns to slow my approach even more, but the jet just isn't boogeying.
Finally, just as I'm getting ready to abort, the tower calls me and tells me to climb back to pattern altitude, so I hit full throttle, turn to the side, set my climb angle, then get rid of my flaps. As my instructor puts it, 'Cram, climb, then clean.'
The jet finally takes off and the tower has me do a 360 and come in for landing again. I do a couple of short field landings, then taxi back to put the plane away.
A good flight, but I know I'm gonna be jonesing while I'm in Oregon. Two weeks without flying is like an hour of not breathing.
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I took another two week hiatus from flying to be with my family in Oregon. I'm running out of time to get my ticket in LA without having to re-do a bunch of stuff to learn how to speak 'Cessna' (the plane I'm flying in a very different from the Cessna's in Oregon), so my schedule is going to be pretty aggressive now.
Today was a holiday, so I scheduled a bunch of flying. I had an 8-10 lesson with my instructor planned, a solo from 11-12, another solo from 1PM to 2PM, and a night flight at 6. I get in late last night, and fall asleep around 2 in the morning. I wake up a minute before my 7AM alarm (which is my cell phone, sitting on a cardboard box next to the couch I'm sleeping on) goes off. My head is pounding, my eyes are bleary from lack of sleep, and I keep hearing this rhythmic splatter noise. As I come full awake, the alarm goes off, vibrating my phone off the box and onto the floor. I scramble through the detritus to shut it off before it wakes the friend who's letting me live in his livingroom when I realize the odd noise from outside is heavy rain.
I look out the window just as I hear a peal of thunder in the distance, and I begin to suspect that my flying plans are somewhat in doubt.
I roll into the flight school and, with a cup of $1.09 candy coffee in one hand and my newly stocked flight bag (inventory below) in the other, casually stroll up to the classroom. At least, as casually as a man with his jacket covering his head from the torrential downpour of a southern storm can be. Maybe I can finagle some way to fly the pattern, I'm thinking. I passingly entertain the idea that my instructor doesn't realize what the sky looks like, and I briefly entertain the fantasy that he'll just say 'Go ahead and fly some pattern work around the airport' because he thinks its just rain. After all, that thunder could be miles away!
"Hi Ben!" I turn around, and the idle fantasy is dashed (much like my plane would have been against the Santa Monica mountains if I had really flown into the towering cumulonimbus clouds, but it was a momentary musing, never a real plan) as I see my instructor running up behind me with some vending machine coffee from the pilots lounge. The free trip planning computer up there never seems to work for me, but I hear that the pay vending machines are eerily reliable. No matter, the jig is up.
"Howdy! I was thinking we should get started on that instrument rating, ready to fly?" It's a weak shot, but I'll take what I can get. Sadly, he laughs at the joke and directs me to the classroom.
We did an hour of review and went over some aerodynamics stuff that helped me grasp some subtleties of doing slips. I've always been worried about inducing a cross-controlled stall/spin (think Goose in Top Gun) when slipping, as the control inputs for both are identical. When my instructor talks about the some sideeffects of stalls, it suddenly clicks in my head that the control inputs ARE identical, the real difference is the AIRSPEED when you do them. If you're slow and do it, bam, you could fall out of the sky (for at least a few seconds). If you do it with 80knots in the Piper Cherokee I fly, though, it's nothing. Sure, you still fall out of the sky, but it's in short, controlled bursts of coordinated falling where you're pointed at the runway the whole time. Airliners do it all the time, right? So I tell myself not to worry.
Afterwards, I head out. I spend some time buzzing around town running various errands. I Xerox part of one of my air charts so that I can see a whole route I plan on flying on one page instead of half of it being on the other side of the chart, go get some lunch at the Souplantation (Generic clam chowder, when 'augmented' with several ounces of bacon bits and half a cup of shredded cheddar with a serious pour of Tobasco sauce, becomes a whole new animal. If you're from maine, please don't kill me.)
I somehow find myself in Van Nuys at the pilot supply store SunVal and marvel at their high priced stock of aviation gear. I think the cheapest part of flying I've found is the $5 stack of 'flight planning' sheets. And even THOSE are disposable, so it hardly counts. I grab a nicely printed copy of the poem 'High Flight':
"High Flight"
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
John Gillespie Magee, Jr.
I'm not much for potree, but this one touched me, especially the first time I heard it back in 1986 when President Reagan quoted it in his memorial to the brave crew of the Challenger.
As each hour passed, I grew more and more anxious. Like someone needing a 'fix', I kept watching the skies above Los Angeles. Around one in the afternoon, the sun starts peeking out over my area. I quickly call the weather robot at Santa Monica and it tells me that the conditions have improved enough to go flying. Chortling, I call my instructor and ask if he wants to fly. Cheese it, he's got a student until three! I see storm clouds in the distance, and I know weather can move in any time, but I tell him I'll be there and cross my fingers.
I head out to Santa Monica and go up to the Pilot's Lounge. I'm anxious to try out my new eBay acquisition, a nice pair of David Clark HL10-40 pilot headset. It's green, looks like it was made out of bakelite in WWII, and has a kickin' articulated steel microphone boom that can double as a weapon in close quarters combat. That, and it's the same model I've been borrowing for training, so I know I'll like 'em. Turns out the planning computer is busted (they should have installed our software) and the headphone jack doesn't fit, so I sit down and start chatting with another pilot who's hanging out. After a few minutes, my cell rings, and it's my intstructor telling me that his two o'clock "just cancelled and would I be interes-"
BAM! I'm already out the door running to the plane.
I get there and start preflighting it, and he shows up just as I finish. I'm standing there right before he arrives, feeling the wind, and call the weather robot again. He had told me that the wind was 7 knots earlier, but it feels somewhat stronger. This time, he tells me that the winds are now only 5 knots, but I suspect this to be inaccurate when I notice the palm trees bent over at a 45 degree angle. That, and the occasional rock that blows across the pavement in front of me gives me pause, but my instructor shrugs and says we should trust the weather guys and make our call by the runway, because maybe it's not so bad up there.
Sure enough, as we pull up to the runway, I notice the 15 knot windsock is almost sticking straight out, but it's directly down the runway with no crosswind, so... we call ATIS and get a new report of 13-14 knot winds, but no mention of windshear or gusts, so we get clearance and take off. At this point, I'm overjoyed to find that my headset is working perfectly. The control tower is getting ever syllable of my confident Chuck Yeager-like radio voice, and I can hear them clearly.
After this, it's pretty much normal flying. I take off (like a helicopter, those headwinds really shorten your ground roll) and do some work in the pattern to get de-rusted after my extended absence from the controls. Everything is clicking, I'm doing everything right, and I make four take offs and landings before we put the plane away.
At six, I show up again and we go for a night flight. We stay in the pattern because there are some menacing clouds staring at us around the airport, and we don't want to be trapped elsewhere if they roll in and eat the airport.
My instructor throws various emergencies at me, including flap failure (landing without flaps is FAST), landing light failure (landing in the dark without headlights is DARK) and an "Oh no, there's a fuel truck on the runway!" right as I flare about 5 feet above the ground. I cram the throttle, set a climb attitude, then clean up the aircraft by carefully getting rid of flaps one notch at a time. My instructor shakes his fist in the air and tells me I got it perfect and he's really happy to see my reactions to the various emergencies.
I might not have gotten the 5 hours of flying I was hoping for, but the 1.4 hours I DID get were a lot better then sitting on a guest couch with a laptop, wasting a holiday.
I have 8-10AM flights all week plus any lunchtime flying I can cram in, so hopefully I'll be close to 40 hours by Friday the 4th when I head back up to spend some time with my family. I can't wait until my new job gets going (theoretically, at the end of March) but I'm also sorta hoping I can get my Private Pilot Certificate before the move, so... it's hard, I'm betwixt.
I'll try to keep some of my other updates this week shorter, I couldn't stop these fingers from typing tonight as I'm still all hopped up of flying. Being out of the cockpit is like going cold turkey on coffee. You don't like it much, but when you come back, it hits you twice as hard as usual.
I'll take mine with sugar and avgas.
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Chairboy,
Are you studying for PPL theory tickets at the moment or do you already have those?
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Chairboy
...I've got sort of a tendency to fly to the runway and set down without hearing the stall horn, and my instructor really wants me to work on slowing to stall speed as I touch down.
Ermmm...couldn't be those hot landings in the MA influencing ya, could it? heheheh lol...I can see ya now, checking yer 6 makin sure there's no nmy about to sneak up on ya as ya land yer kills.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Chairboy,
Are you studying for PPL theory tickets at the moment or do you already have those?
...-Gixer
I don't understand the question, please rephrase?
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^ I think he's talking about the written test.
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oooh... no, I'm not doing any prep work for that yet. I think I'd better start soon.
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I'm a CFII with over 4000 hours and type ratings in 727'2 A300 & G5
The best advice I ever received in learning to fly was not to do it one week at a time over the course of a year or two, but to get it done and over with, at least the private part as fast as I could afford. I saved up my money, took off work for 4 weeks went to florida and got my private in 24 days. that was in 1970 and a high priced CFI back then was $5.00 an hour, the C150 was $25 an hour wet, if I remember correctly.
Enjoy your flying, but don't, what ever you do, don't become a CFI. Become a ski instructor.
I"ve done both. As a CFI I have mantained my skills and fly with the FAA every two years to renew my CFII. I take and pass a first class medical every six months. I work at a flight school on weekends, I might fly with 4 to 5 students between 7:00AM and 9:00PM and receive $22.00 an hour for every hour of instruction I give, I don't get to pick who I fly with and if I"m lucky I get to eat lunch and dinner at the airport Dinner. Having a beer over the weekend, just can't be done. My flight instructor insurance is $3000.00 a year.
As a Ski instructor. My day is between 9:00AM and 3:PM I work with two groups of students durning the day, Many of them guest of the Hotel/resort, many of them young ladies in sexy ski outfits. I do a morning class of two hours and an after noon class of three hours, a total of 5 hours of instruction and Skiing, I receive $135.00 per hour. I stay at the hotel/resort for free and eat for free. My insurance as a ski instructor is $75.00 per year. There is no government agency watching over me. No medical required. Drinking starts around noon.
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I'm still interested in getting my CFI. I don't drink, I love flying, and I'd probably do it part time. Also, I don't know how to ski, and I think that might affect my ability to teach it.
:D
The instructors in LA make $40-45 an hour, in Eugene they make $30 an hour. I don't think I'd ever get rich as a CFI, but returning the gift of flight would sure be rewarding.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
oooh... no, I'm not doing any prep work for that yet. I think I'd better start soon.
Well it's just my two cents and from experience I would be studying flat out and ideally you need to have your passes in all theory before you reach halfway in your hours. Last thing you wan't is to get held up because you haven't got all your tickets and I've seen that happen alot to dumbarses.
Also if you've got time to write stories on the net then spend that extra time studying and go for the higher level classes and passes like ATPL or at a minimum CPL in all the core subjects, especially if later down the track you have plans to go commerical. Don't waste your time with PPL subjects now or CPL if your planning on flying passengers commerically at a later date you need to do ATPL. I did ATPL and glad I did, there is nothing to stop you from studying ATPL exams while doing your PPL licence.
PPL theory is ok if all your ever going to do is circuits and take mum or dad on a city scenic, but if you have any intentions at all in going further with your flying do the higher level exams and pass them well.
If you've told your instructor that you wan't to do CPL and he has told you to do PPL theory and then do CPL theory, dump him and get a new instructor. There's no reason at all to waste your time and money now on PPL exams if your going commercial other then they make twice their money out of you in course fees.
Plus if your looking at flying turbine aircraft of some sort start studying BGT (Basic Gas Turbine) make friends with the workshops at the local airfield and get them to show you a few engines,workings and startups.
The time will go quickly get the theory done and out of the way asap. Leaving you to concentrate on the flying and studying more advanced subjects.
By the way what medical class do you have? It costs more but before you start flying it's best to get a Class 1 that way you won't risk the bombshell later on when you wan't to go commerical in that you only have Class 2 level fitness. I know a guy who did all his CPL flying and theory only to fail the Class 1 medical.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Chairboy
The instructors in LA make $40-45 an hour, in Eugene they make $30 an hour. I don't think I'd ever get rich as a CFI, but returning the gift of flight would sure be rewarding.
LOL
I don't know a single instructor who's doing it for "returning the gift of flying" romantic but total rubbish. They all do it for one reason only, gaining hours. I don't know of any instructors who do it as a career goal. The problem they all have is lack of dual and turbine time. That's the hardest thing of all to get. Time in single engine trainers means very little, you need dual engine,turbine time for fixed wing and lots of it PnC before a operator will even look at you.
Plus the guys that are still instructing at 30, that's probably all they'll ever do, if your not in with a commerical operator by that age then it's highly unlikely you ever will be.
Of course if your doing helicopters that's totally different.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
LOL
I don't know a single instructor who's doing it for "returning the gift of flying" romantic but total rubbish. They all do it for one reason only, gaining hours.
There's an exception to that: aerobatics. I have learned a lot from instructors here at the club. Most of them wouldn't accept money, they just asked for dedication in return.
I myself have got to advanced (after a tour-de-force last week with lithuanian Vytas Lapenas, best aerobatic trainer one could ever have) and will start giving duals for beginners in a few weeks.
Daniel
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Haha. You should have started studying for the test the day you soloed :)
My Dad aced the test, 100%. I think I got one wrong on both my PPL and my instrument/commercial/MEL upgrade tests, but I don't really remember except being a little irritated at not getting 100%. You can buy books with all the questions and lists of which questions are on each test, so it's a matter of brute-force studying in addition to your normal ground school and general studying. There's always the chance you'll get a question or two that weren't in the study books, so it's better to know both the basic material AND study the actual questions. If you read through the questions twice, you'll probably be able to recognize the right answer when you see it so at worst you'll only have to really think on the flight planning questions that require calculations for fuel burn, wind correction, course corrections, etc. Of course, my Dad memorized the answers to those questions too so he finished the test in exactly the time it took to fill in all the bubbles on the answer sheet twice, since he went over the test 2 full times to make sure he didn't make any stupid mistakes. Like I did. *grumble*
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Additions after reading what others read...
I agree 100% about getting a commercial ticket. When I finished UPT, my entire class gave $40 each to one of our civilian instructors at Laughlin AFB and spent a weekend learning the rules. During the next week in our spare time, we drove to San Antonio, forked over some more bucks to the FAA, and took the written tests for instrument, MEL (centerline thrust limited), and commercial. Bang bang bang DONE. Guys who didn't already have their PPL also took that test at the same time.
Once you know the PPL rules, the commercial rules aren't that much more information. It's an additional couple of sections in the FAR/AIM manual to know, some more questions in the master question file to study up on, but that's it.
You don't always need a class 1 medical certificate to be a commercial pilot either. It depends on what part of the FARs you're operating under, and IIRC to charge more than expenses for short hops in light GA aircraft, you may only need a regular med certificate every 2 years. I could be wrong and it was 10 years ago when I took the test, but the FARs have multiple sections depending on the services you're providing and the number of passengers, that sort of thing, and for many commercial services you really don't need much more than what you need for your PPL. Say AHHHH and look at a color vision chart every 2 years, and maybe bend over and sing every 10th birthday if your flight doc takes his job seriously or is a perv.
The big thing about commercial ticket is that it makes it legal to say "yes" when you're going up for a joyride, and someone offers you $60 to take a carb, some oil, and a box of spark plugs to podunk airport because an instructor and his student are stuck away from their home field, or a buddy says he'll pay for you to take him and his girl out to Big Bear, Catalina, or Bullhead City for the weekend. Without the commercial ticket, they can't compensate you for more than your basic expenses. With a commercial, you can charge whatever you think you can get out of the cheap bastage and not worry about bumping into an FAA goon asking too many questions while digging through your logbook.
Oh yea... You're not legally required to have a logbook so unless you need to prove something, you don't necessarily want to carry that thing with you all the time. Carry a copy of your endorsements and your license/medical, but a logbook can be both proof and evidence :(
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I don't think it's smart to make a point of studying the questions and answers. Especially for flying. It's like these idiots who use to study 100 questions and answers and get their MCSE. Thing is they still no fu*k all about comptuers at the end of the day, your just robbing yourself. Maybe get away with it at PPL level but that's it.
...-Gixer
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Well, before I solo'd I took a pre-solo exam that the FBO uses to make sure I wasn't sleeping in ground school. Took a few hours to do, and I passed. I know enough to pass right now, what I haven't done is the intense studying to get a 90-100%.
I don't have a great place to study, I'm living on a friends couch right now, but I'll get one of the quiz programs and spend some serious time on the ol' Lappy 486 doing questions/answers whenever I can.
As for the gift of flying thing you laughed at me for, Gixer, that's fine and dandy for you, but I've always enjoyed teaching, and I figure that if there's anything I can do to get someone else to like flying half as much as I do right now, it'll be a good thing. Plus, if you really love your job, then it's like you're being paid twice. It used to be like that for me where I work now, and since it isn't any more, I'm keeping my eyes open for something else that sparks the same interest.
I'm usually the jaded one in conversation, it's interesting to be on the other side of the fence. Interesting.
Anyhow, I scheduled a solo for 1:30 to 2:30 today. A half hour before, I called ATIS and got an ok, if borderline, weather report. Not a big problem because I wanted to do some pattern work. I get to the airport, and I call the weather robot, and it tells me that the winds are now 9 gusting to 17. I wait around a little to see if it gets better, but it gets worse. When I leave, it's winds of 15 gusting to 25knots with visibility of between one and three miles.
I drove back to work, came up in the elevator. It's gusting like crazy as I go into the office. A few minutes ago (near the end of the block I had scheduled) I called again, and now winds are 10 knots steady, visibillity 3, clouds are fine..... bah. I managed to schedule the one block of time where ol' man weather threw up all over west LA. Gonna try again tonight at 5:00.
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"I've always enjoyed teaching, and I figure that if there's anything I can do to get someone else to like flying half as much as I do right now, it'll be a good thing. Plus, if you really love your job, then it's like you're being paid twice"
Yes that's nice but you still have to eat and it won't feel like it's paying your mortgage twice.
...-Gixer
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I re-read my post, and I don't see me saying I would do it for free.
I prefer to like doing what I get paid for. If the language I used is unclear, I apologize for any misunderstanding I may have caused.
Ah, and a quick followup, with the new business purchase my wife and I are completing this next week, I expect to pass the passive income point needed to pay all my bills. If that's all taken care of, it doesn't really matter that I'm not making $100K giving flying lessons, not if I'm doing what I love.
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You're right Gixer, however there is value to studying the test as well. My advice is always to study the basic core knowledge as if you didn't have the test questions, but to use the master question file as a supplement. That serves two purposes. First, it helps make sure you don't have any gaps in your knowledge. Second, it makes sure you don't waste money on having to take the test again. Most of the stuff in those tests is practical knowledge that any decent instructor will MAKE SURE you know and practice, so the purpose of the test is to help ensure nobody slips through the cracks without some basic knowledge. The REAL education comes through flight time and applying what you've read about, and you can't get the flight time without getting past the test.
So I recommend students study the flight manuals and all the other materials, and also take the time to go over the test questions to cover all the bases.
Instructor philosophizing follows:
A new pilot will likely learn as much or more in his first 100 hours AFTER his checkride than he learned throughout his training, and he'll remember it longer. Up to 500 hours, he'll keep learning. And then he'll get cocky and nearly kill himself somewhere between 300 and 700 hours. If he survives that period, he'll probably make it to old age.
My Dad learned enough in the first 300 hours to know that he was getting too old to survive very long as a casual pilot getting 50 hours a year, so he put his gear in the closet and quit. It was probably the safest flying decision he ever made. He was a good and safe pilot when he was flying more often, but after visiting half the airports in so-cal in the first few years, he realized he wasn't flying enough to keep up his skills so he quit before he killed himself. Smart move. Many people who are less honest with themselves would have kept flying and eventually bought the farm. For a while back when he was flying, it seemed like every month a low-time doctor would rip the tail off his bonanza because he didn't have the experience to do what he was doing and didn't have the honesty to admit to himself that he was over his head. That Kennedy learned that lesson a little too late a few years back, and he died with the stick pulled full aft past VNE in 80+ deg of bank, 30+ deg nose low, a perfectly good airplane. John Denver found it out over SF Bay when he ran himself out of gas and stalled while pushing full rudder trying to reach the fuel switch positioned on a bulkhead somewhere behind his shoulder because the builder was terrified of fuel lines routed through the cockpit.
The written test is (IMHO) mostly to make sure you're taking the whole thing seriously. The real test is when you get out there on your own with no CFI or evaluator looking over your shoulder, and you find yourself in a situation you've never seen before. That's when it matters if you've read the books or just memorized the test questions, and any honest self-respecting pilot has already decided that they'd rather know what's going on than rely on luck.
BTW I found it very interesting to know that as a military instructor, the FAA automatically gave me most of the privledges and responsibilities as a ticketed CFI. My instruction "counted" just as much as that given by an FAA CFI. There were some restrictions as to what endorsements I could give and I never tried to check anyone out or do anything on the civilian side of things, but I suppose I could have if I'd kept up my private flying. I am proud of every student I taught, soloed, and sent to checkrides, and I found that sometimes the definition of fear itself is letting a student fly formation lead with a solo student on your wing. :eek: That's probably our most hazardous training mission and we had a solo student die in a midair collision with a dual instructor/student crew during a formation sortie while the solo student was leading. I think even our most skilled instructors and dedicated students tried harder to do better after that mishap.
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Er... My point in my last post was that someone who doesn't take the ground and flight training seriously is gonna get killed regardless of how they past the test.
Good call on the WX cancel Chairboy... No point pushing things, especially at your phase of training. I know a couple of guys who got their first hour of IFR training while solo prior their first checkride, because they pressed when they should have weather cancelled. A bit of courage and some experienced controllers kept them from becoming dead solo students. You're not getting paid to press into bad weather, so play it safe, kick the dog if necessary, and fly another day.
On my first ever flight lead upgrade sortie, a 1v1 BFM ride out of Mt Home AFB, we were sitting in the arming area getting the pins pulled and I saw the weather was kicking up. My flight control computer kicked offline due to gusty tailwinds and as I fiddled with the systems getting them back online, I saw a line of thunderstorms building over the training airspace. I called the SOF to get a weather check, and he said on the radar he saw a thick line of storms between the base and the airspace, but beyond that he couldn't tell if it was clear or if the storms were occluding the radar returns, masking more bad weather in the traning area. He also said the weather guys estimated the storm front would hit the field in about an hour, which would give us just enough time to go out, get around the storms, get a couple of BFM engagements, and maybe race back home before the storms hit.
I asked my IP in the other jet what he thought, and he said it was time for me to make a flight lead decision. I thought about it a minute and WX aborted. During the taxi back, the winds kicked up to 35 knots, visibility reduced to a half mile, and it started a mixture of heavy rain and hail. During the debrief the IP said he likely would have pressed out himself, but as an inexperienced flight lead I would have probably spent 100% of the flight trying to keep us from getting killed and then we'd have diverted up to Boise and walked home, so aborting was as good a decision as any. The lesson there was that there is no training/non-combat mission worth unnecessarily risking your life or damage to your aircraft.
If we were in the bar where this discussion should have taken place, I'd finish my beer, gumble about how the damn kids these days can't make decent popcorn, and listen up for a reason to start cussing or making fun of vipers *P'tooie*.
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EDITED FOR CONTENT
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I was told it is not so bad to miss a few on the PPL written exam, as you then know what areas the examiner is going to focus on for the oral. This wasn't my experience, but the gent who told me is much more clever than i am.
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Well, had a very humbling lesson today. The plan was to do a mini-cross country to practice navigating by pilotage (flying from a map) and operating into and out of unfamiliar airports.
Ahead of time, I went in, read the charts and wrote down the frequencies for the various towers as well as cruising altitudes and figured that was it. It turns out that I was missing quite a bit.
I'm running late, so I get to the airport just past 8:00AM when I was supposed to meet the instructor. I should have arrived 10+ minutes early to pre-flight, but didn't. That was item the first. This created some time pressure a minute later when the instructor realized I hadn't called 800-WX-BRIEF to get a standard weather report. I had called and gotten the automated weather report for the various airports and thought I was ahead of the game, but it turns out that I should have actually talked to a flight briefer so I would know about any notices/airport closures/etc as well as enroute weather. Also, the act of getting the briefing means that your airplane # is put into the system so if you violate a temprary flight restriction they didn't tell you about, there's a recording of the call that'll clear you.
We taxied and took off with a left downwind departure, heading towards downtown Los Angeles. There's a big approach area for planes landing at LAX from the north, so we needed to stay below 2500 feet, but the congested ground and tall buildings of LA meant we needed to stay as high as possible, so I had a very narrow window to fly in and chose 2300 feet.
My instructor started asking me questions about our flight, like landmarks I had chosen, and I hadn't. So I pulled out the chart and started looking, then the instructor told me to check my altitude. I instantly realized I was less then a hundred feet away from infringing on LAX's airspace, so I learned the importance of flying the airplane first and not letting cockpit distractions interfere.
I started trying to correlate landmarks on the map with my path, and the thing I thought was a lake on the chart turned out to be a field, and that really messed with my head. I finally found the airport, got ATIS info for it, called in and got clearance to land.
My landing went ok, except I felt like I was high so I went to full flaps, but my instructor told me I was actually low by the time we were on short final. Afterwards, I realized that I had grown so used to Santa Monica's 1,200 foot traffic pattern altitude (above ground) that the standard 1,000 AGL traffic pattern at El Monte didn't feel right. After the flight, my instructor told me to trust the standardization of the airports a little more, eg, if you turn to base when the airport is at your 45, and begin your descent at the same place, etc, you'll be in a good position most of the time.
On short final, I heard a Cessna get clearance to position and hold (eg, park on the runway). My instructor grabbed the mic and called out that we were on final, and the tower told the plane to get off the runway immediately. We thought it was a little bit odd at the time, later on the ground we figured out (by hearing the someone talking in the background during a transmission from the tower) that a new controller was being trained.
As I landed, I dodged a big dead seagull lying int he runway. I reported it to the tower and taxied off. My instructor and I went over the flight and taxied back to the runway. As we did, tower sent a car out to clear the meat off the runway. We got clearance and I took off nicely. As I climbed out, tower asked if I was the guy that hit the bird, and I answered back it was dead already when I reported it. We climbed out and headed towards Whiteman.
I got confused a few times, reading the chart, because again, I hadn't set up landmarks and I was having a hard time figuring out where the hill with the Hollywood sign was on the chart. As I passed over Glendale, I called into Burbank (Class C) to get clearance to transition to Whiteman, which is a small airport that's like a couple miles past Burbank and is consequently nestled inside their airspace.
No response.
I looked at the radio, made sure it was on the right frequency, then called again.
Still no response.
I'm already a bit wounded from encountering all my other mistakes, so I'm starting to get stressed as I try to figure out what I screwed up. I ask my instructor, and he shakes his head and says it's not me. I'm getting real nervous because I'm about to enter his airspace if I don't turn, and I need clearance to do it. Right before I turn around, I call again and he finally answers and clears me. I'm thinking this guy is a real jerk, but I don't know what's happening in his tower, so I should probably just forget about it.
I fly over Burbank, land at Whiteman without incident (other then another full flaps, low approach because I'm not trusting the standardized patterns at the unfamiliar airport, oh and Whiteman doesn't actually CLEAR me to land until I'm on base, right as I'm ready to call him).
As I taxi back, the instructor asks me what my plan is to get us back home, and as I start to answer, the controller at Whiteman asks "58 Sierra, you planning on making a right downwind departure to transition south past Van Nuys at 1800?" My instructor is practically clawing at the radio because he wanted me to figure this out myself, but the damage is done. I answer in the affirmative and we take off when we get our clearance. I fly to the 405, talk to Van Nuys, fly back along the 405 without incident.
I go over the Sepulveda pass, make my radio calls, everything is fine until a private jet re-enters the atmosphere out over Las Vegas and gets cleared to make a fast approach in ahead of us, so I have to turn to follow him. I swear, I know the guy wasn't going mach, but he sure was faster then I was.
I come in and land, and my instructor tells me afterwards that I have 'light fixation' because I watch the PAPI too long while on short final when I should be looking at the runway. I land, chagrined, and we do a postflight while waiting for clearance to taxi while some other guy gets a long flight plan filed on the frequency we want to use.
As I park the plane, the instructor tells me we flew 1.4 hours, and I'm shocked. It felt like 3 hours with all the stress, and he laughs.
I've been trying to solo since I got back, and it's looking like I might be able to today at noon. So, looking forward to getting up alone again. It's been three plus weeks, and I've got a hankerin' for some aviatin'.
I told my instructor afterwards that my biggest problem was in preplanning. I thought I had done it all, but it turned out that I didn't know what I didn't know. He agreed, and said that was a really good way to put it.
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Chairboy,
First congrats on pursuing the license! :aok
Second, don't let a "bad" flight get to you. We ALL have them on occasion. Learn from the mistakes and just try to not make them again. Remember this is a learning process. If it were really easy there wouln't be a need for instructors. ;)
Sometimes it's best to get right back in the air but there are times when a day to sit and think about what you are doing while in the air is in order. Let it sink in if you will.
Lastly think of this. You are flying in some of the most complicated airspace in the nation. It ain't easy. I would hate like heck to try to do my flight cert. in that area. I learned at TUS and was told it was hard there with only one towered airport in the area. :) I still run into some folks that are intimidated by the airspace restrictions and they refuse to fly into anything but non towered fields.
Hang in there guy and enjoy the process. Remember you are doing what many dream of yet never attempt.
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C'Boy, once again, thanks for your posts. This is some of...no, this is the best reading for me on this board.
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Chairboy,
If he hasn't already done so, ask your instructor to step you through a 100% complete x/c flight prep cycle. From the day prior calling the FBO at your destination to see if they have gas, getting forecast winds aloft and planning crosswind directions, through pre-planned VOR cuts for nav assistance and all the other things you forgot.
At UPT, we basically plan the first instrument out and back flight for/with the student. We do the flight plan, the fuel cards, everything. We do it all 100% according to the book the first time. Then we have them do it the same way the next time. Then usually on a leg of our all-weekend cross country where we'll hit up to 5 destinations, we mix in "combat planning" where we show them how quickly you can come up with a plan when you're in a hurry, and how to rely on the "WANTS" check before departing any base. Weather, Alternate, Notams, TOLD, Shxt.
Anyhow, you might see if your instructor has the time to walk you through the entire process so you can see how he does it, and how much time it should take you when you get good at it.
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Thanks, slimm! And Eagl, I'll talk to my instructor about that, sounds very useful.
Did .8 hours of solo today, it was great to be alone in the cockpit and flying, I find that not having a pilot ready to take over really concentrates my attention like nothing else, and I got to practice landings.
The air was a little bumpy, but it seemed fine since I was staying in the pattern. The clouds were far off in all directions, it felt like flying in the eye of a hurricane.
I did two normal (for me, that means two notches of flaps (out of three)) landings, then I decided to do a one notch flap landing to see if it improved handling at all with the intermittent crosswind I saw on the first two. For all but the last landing, I consciously ignore the PAPI and instead stare at a spot on the runway so I can fix the 'low approach' tendency I showed this morning at unfamiliar airports.
I turn final with only one notch of flaps and the whole plane shakes hard and drops about fifty feet, then stabilizes. Pretty rough turbulence over the 405/5 interchange, but nothing I can't handle. I come in like normal, nailing the glideslope, and flare like usual. Unlike usual, the plane actually goes up a little before settling down into a normal flare and smooth landing. "Of course," I thought to myself, "I'm going about 10 knots faster with less drag, what else do I expect the plane to do?"
I taxi back one more time and do a perfect pattern. The plane jumps up into the cold air, the winds bump me around a little but it's all fine, and my approach is straight in on the glide slope, red over white, and I touch down smooth as silk.
All in all, a great counterpoint to this morning's rough flight. Tonight, I'll study some more and finish planning a Santa Barbara cross country flight, and with luck we might fly it this weekend.
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Today we did some scary stalls. The training is great because it really helps pound into both the warning signs (so you can avoid them) and the recovery techniques (so you know how to get out of them).
It looked nice from the ground, but when I called ATIS, I heard that visibillity was only 4 miles. After that, I looked at the horizon more closely and realized that I couldn't actually see it, it was just a gradual gradient of haze I was looking at that happened to be blue like the sky.
I got to the plane early because being late the day before had been such a pain. It was quite a trick as my cell phone (which I use as an alarm clock) was dead and I didn't trust the volume of my watch to wake me up. Add to this that I was at work until midnight assembling server racks and installing hardware, and it was a restless night. I woke up a few times and checked the time, finally dragging myself out of bed (couch?) 10 minutes before my alarm would (might?) have gone off.
So I wander out to the airfield.... and the plane isn't there.
Ok, no worries, I'm 20 minutes early, so I head up to the pilots lounge and call in to get a standard weather briefing (another side effect of my early flight yesterday. I might make mistakes, but I try not to make them more then once if I can help it.) and find that it's ok to fly out to Malibu.
The plane shows up at eight with my instructor and another student, and we take off and head north-west along the shoreline. Once we climbed a couple thousand feet, the haze disapeared, there was a light marine layer near the airport, but blue skies above.
He had me review my normal stalls first. I put the plane in slow flight (full flaps, cruise at 60 knots) and do a power off stall, then we did some power on stalls, then he showed me the new stalls.
The first one was the scary one, it was a cross-controls stall. This means that you might be trying to kick the plane around so it points elsewhere but you're using the aileron to try and level the wings. The effect is that the plane is flying sideways and the fuselage creates an aerodynamic 'shadow' that one of the wings is in. The effect is, the plane stalls and starts rolling towards the side that has the wing in the shadow. This is double scary because this is the perfect conditions for creating a spin, where the plane spirals down to the ground, and fast.
We also did trim stalls, where you have the trim set for a low cruise speed, then you jump on the throttle for some reason (say, the tower tells you to go around when you're on final) and the plane wants to pull up and up and up until it falls out of the sky. You have to actually muscle the yoke to keep it from stalling, so it was a good safety lesson.
I do a couple of these, but we're pretty conservative to stay away from actually fully stalling it as the plane we're flying is not rated for spins (some planes, like the Cessna 152, are designed to be safely spun as part of training. This used to be a normal part of flying lessons, but they removed the requirement because the training killed more people then it saved, much like autorotation training in helicopters, I think.) After I have my license, someday I'll rent a plane that's rated for spins and have an instructor show me, but for now, staying OUT of the spin is my priority.
We also did some turning stalls (pretty basic, you're in a turn with the nose too high for the power setting, you run out of airspeed and stall), and that was no problem, especially after the cross-controls one.
Then we flew back to Santa Monica with me under the hood. Pretty normal until he had me do some stalls WHILE UNDER THE HOOD.
Ayeee! It was scary, but also confidence building to see that a: the artificial horizon and the other instruments really told me what I needed to know to recover, and b: that the same procedures work just as well when you can see outside as they do when you can't.
I came in to land and did a short field landing, no problem. Basically, full flaps, touch down on the white marks, and then (simulated) maximum braking. This was no sweat, after all, if I can land a 747 on an aircraft carrier (simulated), then this is nothing.
We taxied back, did a short field take off (full throttle with the brakes held, rotating early and flying as if trying to clear trees right at the end of a short runway) and flew the pattern. On downwind, I got clearance to land, so I turned to base, then to final. As I was turning to final, the tower tells another plane to position and hold, which means drive out onto the runway. I say "This isn't gonna work", and sure enough, the tower immediately tells me "Make a left 270 and reintercept base". This call confused me because I'm already on base, which means I'm thinking I'd need to do a 360 instead. My instructor has me turn RIGHT (which double confuses me) and as I make a turn (and I've added power automatically to hold altitude).
I'm figuring 'reintercept base' means to come around until I'm on base again, then turn to final, but my instructor says "what are you doing?" when I pass the runway exactly perpendicular to it, and has me fix my approach.
Apparently, 'left 270 to reintercept base' actually means 'right 270 to intercept final'. On the ground, the instructor says that the 'left 270' was a mistake on the towers part because there was closed left traffic behind us that this would have put us head on with them. Control obviously meant for us to do this because they don't complain, so all is well.
Anyhow, good flying, and looks like we'll try and do the cross country to Santa Barbara this weekend. I've got another solo scheduled for today at 1:00 PM. Weather permitting, I'll fly myself out of the pattern for the first time and fly to Malibu, then back. This will be good practice for remembering to do all the checklists, get all the calls, etc.
Here's hoping!
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Did another solo today for lunch. Tastes better then anything else, except maybe pie.
I got there just as the plane was coming back from another flight. This little bird is in the air a LOT, I guess it's the only way to make any money is for it to be flying.
My instructor, a student, and two very unhappy looking kids got out of the plane as I walked up. Apparently it was a little choppier up at altitude then they wanted.
I pre-flighted, noted that the fuel was about half full, so no trips to Vegas. I took off and flew up to Malibu, first time leaving the pattern alone. It was strange, being in the aircraft without anyone else for a trip long enough to finish my checklists. I was admiring the scenery, watching for traffic, and having a great time. I flew up the coast at 2500 feet, did some slow flight (where you deploy full flaps and fly the plane level, real slow). I was crawling along at 60 knots with the nose up in the air for a little, then went back to level flight.
Above Malibu, I practiced some clearing turns (where you turn the plane back and forth looking for other planes), something you usually do before practicing wacky maneuvers (like stalls, or emergency descents).
Then, I turned and flew up to 3500 back up the coast to Santa Monica. I had the camera with me and took some shots while flying, I'll post some if there are any good ones.
I did my descent checklist, got clearance to enter Class D airspace by talking to Santa Monica tower and descended in over Brentwood. Got my clearance to land and made an approach without trouble. I came in, landed a little hot, and taxied back to runway 21 with the tower.
I did one more flight, staying in the pattern, and ran into some trouble. Nothing big, but it was puzzling. I was making my descent, and the plane felt like it was trimmed for slower flight then it was (it was neutral), so I needed to push a bit on the yoke as I came in to land. Nothing extreme, but I'll ask the instructor about it. It just didn't feel quite right, so I want to know what happened for the future. Airspeed was right, attitude was right, climb rate was right, it was just... off.
Anyhow, landed, taxied back to parking and did another first, I called for a truck to come and refuel the airplane (since the tanks were getting down). They have pumps where you can fill up the plane yourself, but they also have a fuel truck that'll come and do it and charge it to the plane's account, so why do two starts and pay for extra taxi time if you don't need to?
The neat thing about calling for fuel was, I didn't have the frequency memorized, and I forgot that the instructor showed me it was in the notebook where they track engine time, so instead I used my Flight Guide to look up ground services for SMO and got the frequency there. It was a little victory, but being able to use the reources at my disposal to solve a problem was still a good thing.
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trim indicators arn't an exact science. just trim for what you need. "nuetral" is just a good starting point for takeoff and landing. You dont want to be flying approach with it trimmed to the point where you need forward pressure on yoke. Thats how you get into those trim stalls you had so much fun practicing. Reading your posts is actually making me miss instructing new students. Its students like you that made being a cfi worthwhile.
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Had some ground school this morning, instructor approved of the work I did in planning a cross country trip up to Santa Barbara, so weather permitting, we'll fly it tomorrow (Saturday) morning. Afterwards, I was going to fly out to Malibu to practice steep turns on my own, but there was a cloud at the end of the runway at 1200 feet, so I did a WX abort. I have a 5PM block today, hope it'll clear up!
Have I mentioned that I love flying?
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Bah, I love flying, but I'm starting to hate weather. I called for a standard briefing for my solo tonight, and got a report that included words like 'thunderstorms' and 'severe turbulence' and '(do) not recommend VFR'. The only thing missing from the report was 'spiraling, fiery wreckage'.
After getting off the phone I pondered, then called back and got an outlook briefing on the route for tomorrow's cross country. Same stuff.
So it looks like I won't be doing the XC in the morning. I called my instructor and told him that if he DOESN'T hear from me, we're cancelled. That way he doesn't have to set his alarm clock.
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This morning, hoping things had turned out better then the forecast. I called 800-WX-BRIEF to figure out what the story was.
"Hawthorne FSS." "Hi, I would like a standard weather briefing." "Go ahead." "I will be flying VFR, tail number november eight two fife eight sierra. Aircraft type is a pappa alpha dash two eight dash one six one. Departing SMO Santa Monica via Ventura for SBA Santa Barbara at forty five hundred feet. Estimated time of departure, sixteen thirty zulu." He started giving me the briefing, then asked "Well, can you fly IFR instead?" Right about then I figured out that I would not be flying to Santa Barbara this morning after all. "Ah, that's a negative. Looks like I'll be staying home today." The weather briefer laughed, and I thanked him and hung up. I sat there for a few minutes, thinking, then called ATIS for Santa Monica to see how it was. Visibility was 4 miles, clouds were at two thousand.... not super, but doable.
I take a shower, then call in again. Visibility is improving, so I head out to the airport to solo. Enroute, I call my instructor and let him know that I want to practice landings and takeoffs in the pattern, and he tells me to stay close to the airport because the heading indicator is inoperative and visibility ain't super.
I get to the plane, and start my preflight. I immediately notice that the preflight/engine start checklist card is missing from the airplane. I'm guessing that the last person to flight accidentally took it with them, so I sit there figuring out what to do. I find the checklists for the plane in the operating manual and read over them, mostly the same stuff as the card I usually use, but there are differences. I try calling my instructor, but my cell phone can't connect and the payphone I drive to is busted, so I end up deciding to go ahead and use the manual.
I taxi out, do my runup, then pull up next to the runway.
"Santa Monica Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra holding short of two one, left closed traffic." I look over to the right and see a cessna coming in for landing. "Cherokee 8258 Sierra, position and hold." Whaza? He just told me to drive out onto the runway, and I see a plane a half mile out on final. "Santa Monica tower, confirm, there's a plane on final and you want me to position and hold?" "Affirmative." So I drive out, wondering what he's gonna do. "Cherokee 8258 Sierra, clear for takeoff." That's it, I know this plane is crawling up my right side now, so I call out "8258 Sierra unable, there's a plane on short final" as I get ready to drive off the runway, and sure enough, tower comes back with a different voice "Cherokee 8258 Sierra, taxi immediately off the runway to the north" so I punch the throttle and radio back "58 Sierra, exiting the runway with all haste." As I drive off the other side and turn around to hold short, the Cessna lands, and I know there's no way I could have safely taken off. Tower asks me to switch to ground, and I do, dreading the conversation. "58 Sierra with you" I call. "58 Sierra, things get pretty busy here sometimes, and when everything goes right, we can slip planes in and out of the airport real close together." I nod, then radio back "Roger that, I'll be faster next time" because I don't want to argue with them over the radio, but I'm still thinking it was TOO close. More likely, in the future I'll tell them I'm unable if the plane on short final is too close for me. Maybe when I've got more hours, it'll be different, but I could see that Cessna's pilot's Ray Bans...
So I get my clearance, take off, and fly the pattern. Then the next shoe drops. On downwind, the tower asks me to continue downwind as there's a jet on final. So it's pretty hazy but I continue out. I know the terrain, and I'm not gonna hit anything. I can still see at least three miles. Tower tells me they'll call my base turn.
I'm flying downwind, still flying and looking for that traffic when the tower radios "58 Sierra, you are turning base! Continue downwind until I call your base!" The thing is, I'm NOT turning base, just flying downwind, but again, I'm not going to argue. The jet passes me a mile off to the side, and they clear me #2 behind him. By now, the airport is almost out of sight, but I'm ok because, again, I know LA. At least, from the air.
I turn base, and come in behind the jet and land ok. After this, I'm really sweating because I'm convinced that the tower is gonna FAA me, especially if they think that I turned base early towards traffic when I didn't, but they don't say anything. Maybe they'll call the FBO I fly out of, I dunno, but I've got a case of the nerves.
I land, pull off the active and do my post flight checklist. I take a couple deep breaths to slow my heart, then ask tower for clearance back to the runway (they told me to stay on their frequency). I taxi back, and the rest of my flights are uneventful. My landings aren't as smooth as they've been in the past, but I get some good practice, and they get better each time.
Finally, I park the plane and put it all away. .9 hours of staying in the pattern, not as fun as my to-do cross country. I get back to the apartment I've been staying at that I'm helping move out of (ironically, I've been sleeping on a couch in an apartment that's in the building I USED to own, but don't anymore).
The skies immediately clear, and my instructor calls. "Hey Ben, wanna fly to Santa Barbara?" DOH! Now I'm in the middle of a move, but stuck on the ground.
Maybe tomorrow! I'm just under 33 hours now.
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Ran out of time to fly to SBA today. While the weather was fine, my instructor was working with another student of his who's taking his checkride this week. No worries, we scheduled another shot for Wednesday morning.
I was at an MP3car.com meeting to show off my car computer and check out others when my instructor called and told me to go get some solo time in. No argument from me, I jumped in the car and took off. Winds were 230 @ 11 knots steady, so I preflighted, did my runup and got cleared to taxi to the runway. I ended up waiting 4-5 minutes at the runway because of all the traffic, including a nice Gulfstream that took off right before me. "58 Sierra, cleared for immediate takeoff" comes the call, and, yesterday's flight fresh on my mind, I jump on the gas and drive out onto the runway while flipping switches. Fuel pump on, landing light on, anti-collisions on, all check. Transponder from standby to ALT, check. I was pushing mixture to full right as I finished turning down the runway, and I jammed the throttle to the stops.
I took off in no time, and the 11 knot wind I was flying into made the plane go up like a rocket. I made my right turn at the shoreline to the Pacific (did you know that the Pacific was named as such because it appeared to be a calm (eg, pacified) ocean? HA!) and headed out towards Malibu. I climbed to 2,500 feet and set the plane up for cruise and did my cruise checklist. I finished, then scanned the gauges, then set up a scan outside, then checked gauges briefly, etc. I set up the inside/outside scan when I saw a distinct cruciform shape in front of me. I watched, and sure enough, it turned out to be another airplane cruising in level flight coming towards me. He was off to my right, so I turned to avoid him and we passed a few hundred feet apart. I thought for a second... "I AM at the proper altitude for this flight, right?"
When cruising in VFR, you fly at an even-numbered thousands of feet altitude plus 500. Eg, 2000 + 500 = 2500, where I was flying. This applies when you are flying on any heading from 180 to 359 degrees on the compass (eg, westerly). If you're flying the other way, you pick an ODD numbered altitude and add 500. Since the other fellow was coming at me, I'm thinking he's in the wrong, but ok, the scan worked.
I fly over Malibu, then do some clearing turns to look for other airplanes around me. I definately want to know about traffic if I'm about to do some maneuvering. The steep turns I'm practicing definately count as maneuvering.
I turn the plane until it's turning at a 45 degree angle and hold it there. I'm making a lot less lift then before, so I have to add power and pull back on the stick to keep at the altitude I'm flying at. As I finish the 360 and level out, the whole plane shudders for a second, and I laugh out loud. That's the sign that you've done it right, because the shuddering is my flying through my own wake from when I started the turn.
I do another 4 or 5 of these, never losing more then 50 feet and usually staying at essentially the same altitude before I decide to head back to the barn.
I climb to 3,500 and fly back towards Santa Monica when I see another plane heading right at me. I turn to avoid him, but now I'm really paranoid. "I AM at the right altitude, right? Right?!" I double my scan and fly in. At one point, I hear another airplane call out as being at the same altitude, location, and heading that I'm at and I get nervous. I've already been closer to two other planes today, so I call tower. "Santa Monica Tower, cherokee 8258 Sierra, Pacific Palisades. Can you tell me where that last to call is in relation to me?" "58 Sierra, no, but there's noone near you." "Ah, roger that, 58 sierra." I'm guessing one of us called their location a little early or late, so all is good.
I come in and make a good landing. Not quite a 'greaser' (a very good, smooth landing) but the plane is reusable afterwards, so I'm ok with it.
It was a good solo, and I'm itching for more. Because of that other student getting some cramming in w/ the instructor and the plane, I'm not flying again until tomorrow night. We're gonna practice some more maneuvers at night as a refresher. If we can do the cross country on Wednesday, then we'll do a night cross country on Thursday.
Also, my instructor told me that tomorrow we'll sit down with a calendar and pencil in a tentative date for my checkride. Getting closer!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
....When cruising in VFR, you fly at an even-numbered thousands of feet altitude plus 500. Eg, 2000 + 500 = 2500, where I was flying. This applies when you are flying on any heading from 180 to 359 degrees on the compass (eg, westerly). If you're flying the other way, you pick an ODD numbered altitude and add 500. Since the other fellow was coming at me, I'm thinking he's in the wrong, but ok, the scan worked....
This rule does not apply below 3000', but I obey it down there if possible anyway. I wouldn't have said anything, but you mentioned the upcoming checkride....just looked in the FARs to make sure I was not providing bad info, it is actually 3000' AGL (91.159).
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We use to remember it as N.O.S.E North Odds South Evens.
Though flying helos never put it to practice as hardly ever at 500 let alone 3000
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by bunch
This rule does not apply below 3000', but I obey it down there if possible anyway. I wouldn't have said anything, but you mentioned the upcoming checkride....just looked in the FARs to make sure I was not providing bad info, it is actually 3000' AGL (91.159).
Ok, thanks! Good to know. It was interesting that I still saw that co-alt fella heading west at 3,500 feet, not climbing or anything. I'm reminded of a funny ATC conversation I read on AVWEB recently:
ATC: Saratoga 12345, traffic at 3,000 feet (same altitude), 1 O'Clock, 3 miles opposite direction.
Saratoga 12345: Roger, looking for traffic.
(long pause)
Saratoga 12345: Approach, Saratoga 12345, no joy on that traffic, can you give us a better location on it?
ATC: I can give you a much better location ... he's 2 miles behind you. Traffic no longer a factor. In spite of your best efforts, the Big Sky theory wins again.
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Flew with my instructor today. It's been a while, so I found out that I had developed a couple bad habits in my solos. The main one was using a little aileron to counteract the torque roll on takeoff. The other was that I didn't coordinate my flight as consistently with the rudder as I should. There's a turn indicator with a ball that I'm supposed to keep centered, and I've gotten a little sloppy there. Nothing big, just good stuff to get down right early on so I'm a tighter pilot later in life.
I learned how to do soft field take offs and landings. The soft field takeoff, something you'd use when flying on a grass/dirt landing strip, is awful interesting.
Since the ground can give way, you've got to taxi the plane softly. Don't jam on the brakes, make gentle turns, and when turning onto the runway, don't come to a full stop because you don't want to sink into the mud. So before I start moving, I set two notches of flaps, pull the elevator all the way back, and get my clearance. After that, I gently roll out onto the runway and hit the gas.
What's interesting is that I'm pulling back on the yoke and driving down the runway with the nose wheel in the air. As I get enough speed, the rear tires lift off. I'm not really flying fast at all, so this could be a dangerous combination. The only reason I'm in the air is because of the ground effect (think of it as extra lift that exists as a layer right over the surface and reaches up a few feet), so if I continue to climb, I'll climb to a point where I'm not flying and drop down again.
Consequently, the moment I get off the ground, I need to push the yoke forward a little and fly the plane along in the ground effect for a few seconds while the plane accelerates up to 63 knots (which, in this plane, is a flying speed) at which point I pull back and climb at that speed.
After a few seconds, my instructor calls the 50 foot imaginary obstacle that I was climbing to avoid (eg, there are trees at the end of the runway) so I carefully get rid of one notch of flaps, then another.
Ok, technically, that's the sequence the way it SHOULD go. In reality, my first try doesn't go that smoothly. I don't pull the yoke back far enough, and by the time I lift off into the ground effect, I'm already at 65 knots. I steer back to ground effect and end up accelerating to 80 knots before I rotate up to climb. Nothing bad, the takeoff just happens to be a little more like a standard takeoff then what was intended. My instructor briefs me, and we loop around the pattern and come into land.
Now I'm supposed to do a soft field landing. I'm interested to hear what fancy procedures are needed for soft field landings, and my instructor initially surprises me by saying just "make it your smoothest landing ever. The idea is to set down real gently so your tires won't grab in the mud and make you cartwheel." I gather by the look on his face that cartwheeling the airplane is counterindicated, so I follow suit.
Lately, smooth landings have been escaping me. My landings haven't been BAD, just... they could be a little smoother, and this build up isn't terribly re-assuring. Cartwheeling? I think to myself that it's a good thing that the training is taking place on a cement runway like usual.
I bring the plane in, a little high on the glide slope initially, but I fix it up, then flare and bring it down. I get the right nose attitude (eg, the nose is pointing up high), but the stall horn barely squawks right before I set it down, and it's not super great.... but it's better then some.
"Good, but next time, remember that a good landing is the result of a good approach." He then tells me that he saw me fudging with the throttle to fix my intercept of the glideslope. Busted. If I had coordinated a little better on the base leg, I wouldn't have needed to try and fix things. No biggy, but I take his advice in hand and determine to do it better next time.
We take off again. Same gentle roll, this time I really crank back the yoke and feel that front tire up in the air. The plane lifts off the ground and tries to jump up, but I get the nose down and fly into the ground effect until I hit 65k, then climb over an obstacle. My instructor nods and tells me that's more like it.
On downwind, he says that he's gonna throw something extra into the mix. "This time, when you're landing, I want you to add just a little throttle to make the touch down even smoother. Wait until the plane is descending with the nose high and just give the throttle a little touch, it'll make those last couple of feet even slower/smoother."
During this lesson, jets have been taking off left and right. It's like there's a learjet convention in town, but wake turbulence hasn't been too bad. As I'm on base turning to final, the controller tells another plane to follow mine, and says that I'm on 'short final'. Since I'm like 3/4 of a mile out and just turning to final, I figure that she's just gotten used to these business rockets coming in at 250 mph.
I come in on the glide slope, flare above the ground, then add just a little power. I end up using my aileron a little by accident to counter a bit of wake turbulence that's left from the Gulfstream that just took off ahead of me and my right wheel touches down first, then my other. I use the throttle trick, so other then being off balance, it's a lot smoother.
As I pull off the runway, the instructor says it's a lot better, and we do one more run around the pattern. This time, I nail the soft field takeoff, and on landing, it's a super smooth touchdown.
All in all, a great way to end the lesson.
Tomorrow, we're gonna try to do the cross country to Santa Barbara. The day after, I'm flying into Long Beach where, my instructor tells me, I'll be able to practice crosswind landings. Myself, I'm more interested in learning the complicated new radio calls to SoCal approach and Clearance Delivery. The airport is so big and the airspace is so complicated that they give all the flight instructions ahead of time while you're on the ground so that the controller just has to say 'Yo, get outta here' and can go back to their TV or chatting with the Southwest airliners.
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Hey chairboy! If you're heading to las vegas between now and the 10th...shoot me an email (nemypoo@gmail.com) and we'll grab lunch. I'm busy as heck but right now its mostly checkrides. Passed Initial CFI ride today, so I'm a Multiengine Airplane instructor :) My first time flying around real mountains too :D
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Hey Golfer, I'd love to, but I'm running out of time. I have the rest of this week, then two non-continuous weeks this month to do my cross countries, solo XC, then get my checkride.
I'd love to fly out there some time, but with me moving out of LA at the end of the month, it doesn't look like that'll happen for a while. I'll be sure to drop you a line when I fly out in my own plane. After all, it's just a matter of time before I get rich, right? :D
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The weather has become my implacable enemy.
Grey tendrils ooze slowly through the hills,
robbing the green earth below of life giving sun.
My wings are unfurled, but I cannot fly.
Had to cancel my cross country again because of low cloud ceilings. Perhaps tomorrow?
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Well, I got a chance to get some flying in today after all, just not the big flight I was hoping for.
I took the plane out to Malibu and practiced stalls, both power on and power off. Doing those first stalls alone in the plane was scary. Pulling that nose back, feeling the plane start to shake as it runs out of speed right before the nose falls forward and the plane starts to dive... definately not something to do casually. It was a great excercise in making sure I know all the warning signs (and that's a big 10-4), and they all went fine.
While out at Malibu, I also made my first PIREP (Pilot Report. Since we pay for the planes by the hour, we try to acronym everything to save money. har har). When I had called the Flight Service Station to get weather, the guy said that the area LOOKED fine, but he had no PIREPS from there and asked me to provide one. As soon as I get out there and get a feel for the area, I tuned the radio into 122.00mhz (which is the local FSS) and called 'em up. I had never seen a PIREP given by my instructor, but it looks like I figured out the format. Gave 'em my tail number, plane type, and location and then reported the conditions and altitude. The person thanked me a couple time, so I guess I did it right.
Flew back to Santa Monica and got clearance to enter the pattern. I came in and landed without incident and taxiied back to the runway. I practiced a soft field take-off (kind ok, not my best though) and looped around in the pattern. Did my first solo touch-n-go, that's a real great way to squeeze more landings into a flight! I'll have to remember that for the future. Most of my other solo flying has been during the weekend when my airport disallows TnG's for noise reason, but during the week, definately a good way to get more practice.
Next approach, I requested a short approach with 'the option' and got it. As I passed my landing point, I started the descent, but as I turned final I decided I was way too high (at least a few hundred feet) and did a go-around. I'm definately going to need more practice with that, it's been a while since I did one.
Finally, did a normal landing and started taxiing back to parking. Enroute, a P-51 Mustang came in to land so I got clearance to stop taxiing and watch it (beautiful plane), then parked the plane.
1.1 hours, definately a great way to spend a lunch.
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Yesterday, I showed up at the airport with a glum look on my face. While the weather at Santa Monica was fine, it got progressively worse the further north I looked, and the WX-BRIEF guys mentioned that with the mountain obscuration, they didn't recommend VFR flight through the valleys (the path I was going to take to Santa Barbara).
So instead, we flew down to Long Beach to practice crosswind landings. Long Beach airport is a Class D, just like Santa Monica, but it's quite a bit bigger. There are a few aircraft manufacturers there, including Boeing, and some airliners (Southwest, JetBlue) fly 737s from there.
I flew over LAX via the special flight rules corridor and actually used the VOR radio beacon to to make an exact transition. It's the first time I've used a VOR since my initial training a month or so ago, and I was very satisfied to be able to tune it in and use it without needing any refresher. I did a climbing right turn out of Santa Monica, passed directly over the VOR on the proper heading, and the needle stayed basically centered as I flew over one of the busiest airports in the world.
On the other side of the airport, I started looking for Long Beach. I was checking my chart against landmarks when suddenly I looked up and pointed. "Hey, there's an airport there! That's Long Beach, I'm sure of it." My instructor nodded. "You found it your first time," he said. "That's better then most other students." Once I traced the shoreline and referenced what I saw out the window with the chart, it was obvious. So that was cool.
I made my call to the tower. "Long Beach tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra over the 405/110 interchange, request the option on 25 right with Zulu." Tower approved me for right traffic on runway 25R, so I entered the pattern on downwind and did my thing. As we passed the field, the instructor pointed at something on the field and said "We've got a good windsock today, and it should a great crosswind." I looked for a second, trying to figure out what he was pointing at when I realized it was a big blimp that was parked midfield. A 'good windsock' indeed.
I made my approach, crabbed in at an angle until over the runway, then kicked the tail around with the rudder while stabilizing roll with the ailerons, and touched down perfectly.
I turned the ailerons into the crosswind, cleaned up the plane, and hit full power and took off again. My instructor commended me. "Geez Ben, you nailed it on the first try again. Let's make it harder next time, I want you to touch down on the numbers." I felt pretty good after that and did another loop around the airport. I came in a little hotter then I wanted, but touched down just a few feet past the numbers. Next time around, I got it.
We flew back via the mini-route, which is cool. That's the one where I end up squawking a special code on my transponder, talk to Hawthorne first to set it up, then finally contact LAX tower to get clearance to fly over at 2500 feet. It saved a lot of time, considering that we didn't need to climb to 4500 to do the northwest Special Flight Rules corridor.
All in all, a great flight, and my instructor told me that he liked everything he saw and didn't have any areas of improvement for me.
This morning, I showed up at 7AM to fly, but the clouds were low. I stuck around for 20 minutes until it cleared up a bit (there was a wind moving the clouds aside, I had blue sky pretty shortly) so I went to the plane. I called the tower before startup and asked them how the sky looked for closed left traffic, and they said it was fine, so I started it up and took off.
The air was cooling, so it was super stable. The plane felt like it was on rails as I climbed. On downwind, I saw a light cloud a few thousand feet away, but it was transparent, so I just avoided it and did a touch & go. After climbing back up to altitude, I was on downwind when I realized that the little cloud had suddenly turned into an opaque cloud bank and scooted in over my approach path. As I was getting ready to call the tower, he told me to wait for IFR release, and that's when I knew this wasn't going to work.
"Santa Monica Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierrra, downwind. Student pilot, there are some thick clouds forming in my path, request 180 and full stop on runway 3." Since runway 21 was in use, I was asking to land going the opposite direction. The tower had me do a few 360s as he got some traffic in and out, then had me land. I did a sorta-short approach and landed with a 6 knot tailwind, but it was super smooth, then taxied back to parking.
Good flight right until the clouds came in.
Since I'll be in Oregon for the next week, I've been assigned some serious studying/cramming so I can get my written out of the way when I get back. That monday, we'll try doing the cross country to SBA in the morning, a night cross country that evening, and I'll try and do my own solo XC the next day. It's gonna be some serious cramming, but I'm ALMOST there. Just a couple tiny things to do and I'll be ready to get my checkride.
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Howdy!
It's been a week, and I'm in the air again!
This morning, I drive out to the airport. I call into the automated weather system, and it tells me that the sky is overcast, there are clouds, blah bah blah, it's cruddy. So I call the weather briefer and ask him about flying to Santa Barbara, and he tells me the same thing.
I pull into the airport and walk out to the aircraft where my instructor is waiting. "How's the weather?" he asks. "Well, according to ATIS, it's pretty crummy." I note the clear skies all around us. I look up and say "and it's severely overcast at 3,000" just in time to see a plane fly over at 10,000 feet, blue skies everywhere. "Oh, and they also warn of mountain obscuration."
"Indeed." He nods, then we look over at the mountains, which are clear of all clouds. "Well, they might be a little behind. Let's see if we can fly north. We can always turn around if we see clouds."
So we take off and I fly us up to coast to Pacific Palisades, then cross over into the valley. Everything is looking great, and I find my first checkpoint without problem. I turn towards Camarillo, fly over it and out to the oil platforms. I get ATIS from Santa Barbara, and contact SBA approach and get a custom squawk code. Life is great. I'm at 4,500 and trimmed for 100knots (instead of the slower 80 I usually fly at), so when I begin my descent, I chop the throttle a little much and set us up in a bit of a steeper descent than the instructor wants. "Let's ease up a little on that, we don't want to dive bomb anyone."
I follow the highway in over Santa Barbara and admire the view. There's a ission there, and it looks pretty nice.
I get final clearance, find my way to the airport on my own, and bring us in for a landing. We refuelled, hung out in the office at Mercury Air for a few minutes eating cookies and drinking coffee, then headed back out to the plane. Interestingly enough, the whole time we were inside the office, all the gas guys were hanging out. They didn't bother sending the fuel truck out until we were on the way to the plane, so we ended up having to wait for them to finish. That, and the guy spilled gas over the wing. Back at Santa Monica, the refueller guy from American Flyers has a little cover that goes over the fuel hole to catch any splash, but... good thing it wasn't my plane with a new paintjob, I guess.
I call Clearance Delivery for the first time, and get everything perfect first try, so I'm very happy. I was nervous about dealing with approach and clearance delivery, but it worked out fine. When I was done with my run-up, I called tower and just said "Santa Barbara Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra, ready for takeoff" instead of the normal telling him where I was going. Since the clearance delivery people gave me all the instructions (maintain runway heading and below 1,500 for three minutes or until instructed, squawk 4265, etc) the tower guy must have the easiest job in the world, just saying 'Take off' and 'clear to land' without all the other stuff.
We took off, climbed to 5,500, and flew back along the Camarillo VOR beacon. Near Ventura, my instructor had me go under the hood just as moderate to severe turbulence started, but I never got nauseaous. He had me maneuvering and maintaining headings as the plane was thrown around the sky like a piece of tissue paper, but I did ok. Kept getting hit by strong updrafts and downdrafts. At one point, I was using full power to maintain altitude because the winds were pulling me down. After Camarillo, he takes me out from under the hood and gives me a simulated engine out. I do the checklist, then make a normal approach and landing at Santa Monica. My flare was a little long, and I toggled the stall horn when I was still up 20 feet or so, but I had enough airspeed to get down. My instructor just said I should remember to add power if I'm aiming for a landing point (I did a short field landing) and not just pull back the yoke. Gotta remember both.
All in all, a good flight. Tonight, weather permitting, we'll try the night cross country to Rialto. Rio alto? Rilto? Not sure the spelling, or even where it is. Guess I'd better plan the trip out.
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Went on a solo flight this morning, it was great. Perfect weather, great visibility, no clouds anywhere, it was spectacular.
I flew to Simi Valley and practiced turns around a point using a water tank as the 'point', then practiced S-turns down the freeway that bisects Simi.
There was another plane in the practice area that wasn't on the common frequency, and he was practicing steep turns a little close for comfort, so I'm not sure he knew I was there, but I just kept my eyes open and moved elsewhere.
I flew back, everything was perfect. I call in from the Pacific Palisades and tower tells me to make right base for runway 21 and report midfield. So I'm entering the pattern when, a minute later, another plane calls in from Palisades at the same altitude I was at for the same thing. I look out my window, and there's another Piper coming in hot behind me. He does s-turns to bleed off speed, and ends up settling something like 200 feet behind me, pretty close. I call tower: "Santa Monica tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra, midfield abeam on downwind. I've got a bandit at my six, request short approach for spacing." Tower ends up having me extend my downwind because there's a business jet on final and asks the guy behind me to try and slow down a bit more.
I get cleared to land after the jet and bring the plane in for a smooth landing. The other plane lands 20 seconds after me, so I guess he managed to slow down.
It was just about a perfect flight. Wonderful views, the Santa Monica mountains were spectacular. Agoura Hills looked great, and I could see people on the paths along the ridge below.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I wish I had done this years ago. I'm gonna try and get my written test out of the way this week, and weather permitting, will do the night cross country to Rialto (L67) today. After that, solo solo solo then checkride! I'm at 38 hours right now (added 'em up last night) so it looks like I could be in the low-mid 40s if I feel ready for my exam early enough. The clock is ticking, I am running out of time.
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cut engines, skid, force the overshoot & you're on his 6:00...too bad about the cherokee's weak guns
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No doubt. Problem was, I was entering the pattern at 80 knots, so, not a lot of e to play with.
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Well, I did my night cross country with the instructor. It wasn't great, but it went ok.
It started out with something really cool. As my instructor and I were going over the flight plan in the parking lot, I hear this droning. I look over and see the Goodyear Blimp turning base towards the airport. I'm thinking, this can't be real. There are no blimp operations at SMO. He turns final and drops down to like 50 feet over the outer marker. He ends up doing a low-pass down the runway, then climbs out. Pretty amazing.
I took off, did a climbing right 270 and passed over LAX at 3,500. I found my first checkpoint (the 91 freeway) and turned to follow it east. As I flew, I was finding my checkpoints, cross referencing my position by airports, etc. I set myself up on the Paradise VOR and life was good.
I skirt around the Disneyland restricted area (you cannot fly close to the Whitehouse, downtown Washington DC, or... or Disneyland.)
I'm starting to get close to Ontario Intl airport, so I make my radio call. "SoCal approach, Cherokee 8258 Sierra (something Canyon, don't remember) at three thousand five hundred, request transition of Ontario class C for Rialto." SoCal approach responds quickly. He gives me a custom squawk code, then has me turn directly towards Ontario. Erm... this is unexpected. I was planning on flying to the Paradise VOR, then turning towards Rialto. I make my turn, overfly Ontario then start looking for Rialto.
After a few minutes of searching, I'm convinced that I've found it. I head towards what turns out to be a shopping mall. I find the airport and descend to it, then landed. I was rusty on my calls to uncontrolled airports, but after some prompting, I get 'em. I land, taxi back to the beginning of the runway, then takeoff.
Coming back, I follow the 210 towards Pasadena. I stay clear of Class C Ontario airspace. As I'm looking for landmarks, I become convinced that I see the Rose Bowl (which is one of my checkpoints), but it's super hard to see at night. Dumb mistake picking it, I should have just used a freeway intersection. I figure out where I am and descend to 2,500 (from 4,500) at El Monte and then turn towards Santa Monica near the (unlit) Hollywood sign and the (slightly less unlit) Griffith Observatory.
Santa Monica airport was easy to find, so I intercept the glidepath and brough the plane in for a landing.
What's missing is how I had a really hard time reading my chart in the dark cockpit. My little red handheld light was difficult to use when I needed to keep my hands on the controls. Also, I was really rushed for time when I put my plan together. The plan itself was fine, but I didn't spend enough time familiarizing myself with alternate checkpoints/landmarks, so I had a tough time finding where I was on the chart. Another thing.... my chart. I had to keep refolding it, and it got in my way constantly. I'm gonna actually spend an evening folding and refolding my map while trying to read it in the dark.
Tomorrow morning, if the weather improves, I'll do a solo cross country to Santa Barbara.
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I flew to Kalamazoo, MI on monday with a couple of private pilots. The guy who hired me was picking up a Semi-Truck and the other (his friend) did not have a current BFR and had just gotten his medical back. We start loading up the airplane and this is a pretty good airplane. Nicely rigged and has a panel mounted King GPS. The guy who just got his medical back had planned and plotted a well done VFR X/C but took us about 30 miles out of the way to an airport he was using as a VFR waypoint. We took off and started toward it and I asked if he wanted to get to Kazoo before April. I hit the [-D>] and twisted in KAZO and off we went with a purdy little course line and such to follow. Turns out, that even though both of these guys learned to fly at the same flight school (where I am working now) and flown this airplane a LOT in their training...no CFIs had taken the time to teach them how to use the GPS's installed in the airplanes...partly because they had not taken the time themselves to learn them. I shook my proverbial fist and wished them no good during FMS ground school.
They then BOTH proceeded to pull out a handheld GPS and said they were told that they were forbidden to use them in training by their CFIs. I rolled my eyes and said "oh hell no!" All's fair in love, war and flying. I gave them one of the few schpels I have ready to give and said you need to know how to do a VFR X/C because GPS's are machines and they fail. You need to know how to use a chart. You can absolutely use a GPS, handheld or otherwise even on your checkride. Nothing is better than a moving map for a little extra situational awareness.
We slap the GPS on the yoke (including my Garmin Pilot III and the panel mounted we have 4 GPS's in the airplane now LOL) and its no slouch. Garmin 196. He was able to hit Goto (Direct) and get Kazoo in the window. I gave him a little crash course on entering a flight plan since the software for mine and his are nearly identical. I ran him through some basics of the King mounted on the panel. By the time we got to Kazoo (time flew by) he was pretty proficient on both the units since I had him entering all sorts of different flight plans to all sorts of different places.
He lands at Kazoo like a champ. Neither had done a clearance delivery type thing before except once in their initial training at Port Columbus (Class Charlie) so I did it on my handheld for them. Showed them it was a snap. Wished the trucker well and we headed back for Bolton. I talked about standardized airport markings and had him pull out his AOPA taxiway sign thing he showed me before. I had my airport diagram out and we made sense of ground's instructions. I said even though we know where we are going, we're unfamiliar and if we have any questions we can always get a progressive taxi. Asked for a progressive and the lovely dumbed-down instructions were "straight ahead on that taxiway in front, all the way to the hold short line and make a left." He was tickled by this...I vowed to take him up to the tower to meet my buddy who is one of the controllers back at Bolton and show him that controls are not posessed demonic voices...just a regular short skinny redheaded guy in the case of my buddy.
More GPS play on the way home, and an easy instruction from the tower. Report 2 mile right base rwy 22. Okie doke. We're right over my house now, I point it out to him and tell him to fly right for a freeway which he can see to our 11 oclock. That'll put him on base for 22 and thats where we're headed. We get to 2 miles, I make the call and for some reason he puts in 10 of flaps. We're 2 miles from the airport...I ask what is his plan (since it's lost on me:confused: ). He gave an honest answer that when you turn base you put down your first 10 of flaps. I said sure but we're in a 172 we can have the throttle at full until a mile from the runway and still get down in time. No worries, he hasn't flown in 7 months so it's all new again. We roll out on final lots left of centerline and showing 4 whites on the PAPI so we're between "really high" and "damn high" he pulls off the power and down we go. The nose is pointed right at the threshold markings...I'm thinking "ahh" in my head because he's correcting. My hands on my knees are a hillbilly's heartbeat from the controls and my feet are already on the rudder pedals. Up into the flare we go at 50 feet! He keeps coming back on the yoke...back...back...back...s tall horn...bottom about to fall out...not recovering...wait another second....My Airplane!.
I firewall the throttle, get the flaps up and the carb heat in and give tower a call we're going around. Get set up for the climb and already I know what happened. He had such a strict and regimented procedure for landing (pattern work only) when you asked him to do something different like fly straight in or a right base...he was lost. I gave him back the airplane on downwind once it was set up and trimmed and he was fine. No hard feelings. He set us up, put in 10 of flaps then turned base. 20 flaps on base, turns final. Rolls out 2 white/2 red right on glideslope and a nice touchdown. I told him that before anybody would sign him off for a BFR (I don't do BFRs) he'll need more training and I'd be glad to do some training if he needed it. I told him I don't do Biennials but would work with him on anything he needed help with and talk to the instructor he would eventually get the signoff from and let them know what was going on.
All in all a decent flight...3.9hrs dual given. My first student-induced go around. A successful prognosis and I even got to make a schpel. :)
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Nice story Golfer. Congrats for surviving your first attempted airborn murder-suicide :) I had my share during my 4 years instructing in the tweet.
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Great story, thanks! My instructor doesn't want me using my handheld GPS until after my checkride because he wants me to really nail down the fundamentals of VOR/ADF/Pilotage/Dead Reckoning etc first. I'm glad he did, I've been practicing as part of my flights, and I'm starting to feel pretty confident in the VORTAC system. Pilotage I was fine with already, and dead reckoning went up a few notches in my respect book today.
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Nice catch.
My instructor got canned a few years ago. He had an older gent for a student who didnt let up on the flare and THUD'd the C-172 into the runway. As my instructor was telling me, he was a nanosecond from shoving power and making a go around, but he missed it. Airplane was severely damaged, buckled the fuselage and such to the point the doors wouldnt close.
No damage, asides ego for the student and a job, for the instructor. Accidents happen.
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Today I did my first solo cross-country, and it was great!
I took off and turned right at the shoreline like usual, and began climbing for 4,500 feet. I was doing all my checklists, updating my flight plan to indicate the actual time flown between checkpoints so I could compare it against my estimated ones.
I flew out over the valley to my first point. There's a lake next to the 101 with a big island in it that's covered with houses. I see it, put in the time, and it matches my estimate exactly. Sweet! So I turn to my new heading I calculated and fly towards Camarillo. Enroute, I switch on the CMA VORTAC and DME and get it working the first try. As I pass over the airport, I make note of my time enroute for the leg, and again, it's the same as my estimate.
I turn my radio over to Camarillo tower. Even though I'm out of his airspace, I figure it's a good way to get some extra traffic info without having to ask for it. It's then that I hear a kinda embarrassing radio exchange. I'll try to recreate it:
PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... twenty six.
TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions.
PLANE: I'd like to take off.
TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six.
PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six.
TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six.
PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what you mean.
TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on the runway?
PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here.
TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.) Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six.
PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123...........and I'm departing to the right.
I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing, presumably he's learned all this stuff... right? And what if he's already a pilot? Scary stuff.
A few minutes later, I get SBA ATIS info, then call approach. "Santa Barbara Approach, Cherokee 8258 Sierra over Ventura at four thousand five hundred, landing with Oscar." He gives me a squawk code and tells me to expect to follow the freeway through Santa Barbara and make left traffic for runway 15L.
Over the oil platforms, I begin my descent. Another time that's within a minute or two of my estimate, pretty sweet. As I descend, approach mentions some traffic that I see, and everything is great. I get the hand off to the tower and call in. "Santa Barbara Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra with you." Since I'm operating with a special transponder code and the approach guy has told him to expect me, that's all I've got to say. He clears me for 15L, then vectors another plane that just popped over the mountain to land ahead of me. This other guy is going pretty fast, so he's on the ground a few minutes before I am.
I come over the mission, follow the freeway and turn base at like the perfect altitude, and bring the plane in without needing any extra flaps or slipping. Perfect touchdown, no squeak, and I taxi off the runway at Kilo. He hands me off to ground, and after I get my post landing checklist done, I call them for clearance to Mercury Air. I park the plane, tie it down, and walk inside to order some fuel.
As they're refueling, I eat a cookie and hang out in their lounge. I order 10 gallons, just enough to waive the ramp fee, and when I see the fuel truck drive off, I wave to the other guy in the lounge as I leave. "Looks like my plane is ready" I drawl, and I head off, feeling on top of the world.
Preflight, then call to Clearance Delivery to get my clearances/squawk codes in order, then I start up the plane. No sense paying for engine time while sitting there writing stuff, I figure. Ground clears me to taxi, and I head down Bravo taxi-way and do my runup. When done, I taxi up to the runway and call tower. "Santa Barbara Tower, Cherokee 8258 Sierra, ready for takeoff." "Cherokee 8258 Sierra, cleared for takeoff." Lights, camera, action!
Full throttle, and I blast down the runway and jump into the air. I fly runway heading below 1,500 per the instructions of clearance delivery, then tower hands me off to SBA Departures. He vectors me in the right direction for a few minutes, then frees me to do my own navigation.
As I fly back, I'm doing my checklists, and life is great. I'm seeing everything I learned coming out. Almost every skill gets a review. From radio calls to navigation to approach procedures, the lessons I got were really building up to flights like this! Point Mugu approach takes me, and I listen to him vectoring various jetliners around the sky. At one point, he tells two planes to 'contact fleet command', and I realize those are probably fighters.
My flight back is great. I get handed off to SoCal approach, my radio calls are clean, my plane does what I want, and I'm scooting along at an indicated ground speed of 128knots at one point.
I begin my descent at that lake with the island and descend over Malibu to follow the coast to Santa Monica. I get my calls in, and land a few minutes later.
It was GREAT!
Tomorrow, I'm going to do my long distance cross country. I'm thinking of flying to maybe Van Nuys, then to Palomar or Baker and back. Gotta plan that tonight.
Passed another milestone recently, I'm now over 40 hours. I've got all my night landings, and after a few hours of solo cross country, I'll be in checkride country. Almost there!
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Chairboy,
Not sure if you will do many nite trips...I think Lowes or Home Depot has these cool little lites on like a elastic band that will fit around your head. I think they come in blue and amber..not sure if that will help or not :D
Sounds like your having a real blast..look forward to reading more..
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Thanks for telling us about it chair. Keep em coming, I'm living out a dream vicariously reading all of this:D
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wtg!
Man, I remember my first Solo X-C up here in Maine. I certainly dont have the air traffic you have over there. Once I took off, I had to clear out immediately as 2 F-16s were on alert and responding to an Over-The-Horizon Radar blip. (It was in the newspaper a few days later, those jets escorting some Russian Bear bombers around International airspace)
The biggest chuckle I got out of my X-C flights was how Unicom was literally the "channel 1" we know from AH. People calling in, telling so and so to get the truck warmed up. Asking if Pete has plowed the airfield, etc etc. Sure, they kept it all brief and such but it was still funny. Welcome to small towns USA
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That is different in LA, doing your X/C & never leaving the city....I got my PPL without ever having heard the term "position & hold". I've got to go now & price some bib overalls
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my long x/c was from corpus christi to laredo to mcallen back to corpus. Only instructions I get from instructor were "you see a big river, dont cross it" Ahh the gold old days, damn surprised I didnt kill myself.
Oddly enough a little while later he had another student cross that big river and end up in Mexico.
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You guys got it lucky, my long solo x-ctry was from PDK Direct MGM Direct HSV Direct PDK. That flight took over 5 hours and was 420 NM. It scares me that you've never heard of the term position and hold because I hear it every time i fly out of PDK (busiest GA airport in the world).
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Originally posted by XNachoX
I hear it every time i fly out of PDK (busiest GA airport in the world).
Actually, it's the second busiest General Aviation airport in the world. The busiest is Van Nuys (VNY), which coincidentally will be part of my long-distance cross country.
Speaking of which, I did a WX abort. It's pretty crummy today, so I'm going to spend my time seeing if I can squeeze in my written test instead, then try to fly back to Oregon early via standby.
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Actually it is not uncommon for people to not understand "position and hold" especially if it is a non-US trained pilot. The ICAO version is "line up and wait". If you do any flights into canada, mexico or bahamas that is the instructions you will get most of the time. However the tower controllers are so used to american pilots they will sometimes give position and hold clearances as well. "position and hold" thus can confuse people as the term hold means do not get on runway to them so the instrucions seem contradictory.
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I think I was instructed to "position and hold" maybe twice while I was going for my PPL. 1 of those times was on my 1st solo "not-quite-an-official-XC." Which also was only the second time I'd ever soloed. And the weather was barely VFR. Boy what a CF that turned out to be.
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Hmm... maybe I shouldn't be so shocked, then. I've been learning at Santa Monica in some of the busiest airspace in the world, it stands to reason that I'd see some things there that I wouldn't elsewhere. I just assumed P&H was something that happened all the time, but I guess not!
Well... if nothing else, it reminded me you never know how many people are listening on the radio when you scruff something up. I've yorked a couple of calls, mostly because I started speaking before I knew what I was gonna say, and now I wonder how much mirth I caused among the legions of silent listeners. heh
On the plus side, learning with all this traffic will probably serve me well going into the future. I think I'd rather be a city trained student flying into the boonies then a boondock trained pilot flying into the big city. If I had learned at some uncontrolled field, I'd probably be more intimidated by ATC.
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I just scheduled taking my written tomorrow morning. Guess I'll be practicing a bunch on ye olde Sporty's study buddy website tonight.
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Good luck chairboy! The sportys practice tests are great. Score 90's on those and the actual test is a piece of cake.
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You are correct Chairboy, learning to fly at a busy airport will be pricless later on when you have no fear about flying into any airport. I've met guys while I worked at my flight school in the summer that would tell me they won't fly into PDK because they "personally" classify it as class Bravo airspace......He was only used to flying out of uncontrolled airspace and I felt sorry for him.
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BTW, passed my written. Only got an 82%. I had like 3 questions about the ADF. Guess I should learn how to use it... doh!
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Screw the ADF they're phasing out the NDBs at airports where its not the only instrument approach or not used for any instrument procedures.
82% is a good score. You're not a know it all, and you're not a dummy :)
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What, i used the ADF all weekend while flying. Of course it was tuned to 1510 or 1380 so i could listen to NCAA tournement while flying watching the autopilot fly up and down the east coast. BTW NY center has an annoying habit of talking to you during the last minute of close games.
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No problem, just squawk 7600 until the game is over, then come back on and say you had to replace the fuse/reset the appropriate breaker.
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Well said Chairboy. That shows a very good understanding of the ATC and Aircraft systems. You'll do well, grasshopper :)
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Just trying to apply problem solving skills to the issue. :D
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Learn the adf, US isnt the only country that uses them. Some areas of the world thats all they have. Think ahead.
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I'll definately learn how to use it. Hells bells, if my plane had Loran, I'd learn to use it too, just so I can maximize the number of tools I can utilize to get out of trouble.
If ADF is good enough for the Japanese to use to home in on Pearl Harbor from X hundred miles away, then its good enough for me to find my way to an airport.
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When I hear about a country (or region) that is giving up their ILS systems in favor of new GPS approaches, I laugh. Hehehe. Hahaha. Hohoho.
Then I hope the FAA doesn't follow suit.
Think about it... If you were the chief aviation administrator in any country, would you trust your aviation to a navigation system owned and operated by the US government? I sure as heck wouldn't. All it takes is one terrorist with a gps jammer or hacked differential gps device to run a few airlines into buildings or the ground, or one case of a home-grown gps guided flying bomb (poor man's cruise missile) before the US govt takes down or turns off the whole system entirely.
The old LORAN system went bye bye with the advent of GPS because it was too darn expensive and the worst case in the event of a nav failure on a boat isn't usually as instantly fatal as a nav failure in an airplane, but it's the same idea. If you remove your ground based home-field owned/operated/certified navaids and precision guidance assists, then you're at the mercy of whoever owns the navaids you use. MLS is too expensive for GA and didn't catch on like GPS has, but it seems like everyone is ditching ILS and even considering phasing out VOR and TACAN navaids. What a stupid shortsighted and risky thing to do...
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This morning, I got up around 7:30 and showered up. The plan for today: Long Distance Solo Cross Country. The idea behind this is you need to fly a 3-leg long distance flight, and it has to be of a certain length. My instructor mentioned that most of his students go to Baker then come back through Van Nuys and finally land again at Santa Monica.
"No problem, I'll whip that out in no time!" I wandered over to the CoCo's near the field and pulled out all my charts and began planning. And planning. I stopped briefly to eat some Eggs Benedict, then got back to planning. I probably got to the CoCos at a quarter to 9, and spent a couple hours working on my basic flight path, courses, distances, etc. When it came time to plug in the current info regarding weather, my crummy cell phone wouldn't dial out, so I headed off to the field to use the Pilot's lounge.
There, I called 800-WX-BRIEF and gave them my flight plan. With the data in hand, I started doing the numbers, and I realized that Baker was something like 150-200 miles away. "Wow," I thought to myself, "my instructor really wants this flight to test my mettle!"
By the time noon rolled around, I was frantically entering the last numbers and staring at my fuel consumption. Not only was it a super long flight, but it was going to leave me with 20% fuel at when I landed at Santa Monica. Not too far out of the normal safety margins! Kinda worried now, I head off to show my plan to my instructor.
He takes the plan and starts walking through my checkpoints. As he is, he starts to frown a little. Finally, he looks at one checkpoint, and asks me accusingly "Torrance? Let me see your chart."
Nervously, I show him the chart. "I was going to do a climbing 270 to the LAX Special Flight Rules corridor, then fly down and turn inland near Torrance airport."
He starts to repeat back part of what I say, then stops, looks again. "Wait, Ben, WHERE are you going?"
Nonplussed: "Why, Baker of course. Like you said." I pointed it out on the map. His eyes instantly skyrocketed.
"BakersFIELD. Most of my students fly to BakersFIELD, not Baker!" He points out the (much closer) Bakersfield, and suddenly, the use of Van Nuys as an en-route airport makes sudden, chilling sense.
"Uhhh...." I start, intelligibly, then start laughing. Pretty soon, he's laughing too, and after a minute, we go back to the plan.
"Ok," he asks reasonably, "what are the winds like up there?" I tell him, and as I do, I realize that it's an almost direct cross-wind to the runway, a crosswind component of over 10 knots. He doesn't want me doing more then 8 knot crosswind landings while I solo. Finally, he suggests that I land at Barstow. Daggett Airfield is one of my checkpoints for the flight to Baker, and it has a couple runways, one of which would allow a landing into the wind.
This also cuts my flight by like an hour plus, so I'm feeling quite a bit better, if a little stupid.
He signs off my log book, and I jump into the plane.
(continued)
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I take off, climb over LAX, then get on course for the Paradise VOR. It's a bit choppy, but nothing crazy. Each of my checkpoints come up like clockwork, and I mean it, they're all within one minute of my predicted times. This dead reckoning stuff really works, and I'm apparently doing the flight planning correctly! Well, at least when I plan for the right airport...
Out near Riverside, I turn north towards the pass. At this point, I'm following the 15 and I've climbed to 7500 to avoid some class C airspace, not to mention get some more speed.
In the desert, I follow my chart headings and cross reference airports as I go to figure out where I am. Most of the airports really stand out, but for some reason I just can't see Hesperia. I vow to find it on the way back, I have enough redundant airports in sight to know exactly where I am.
After flying over Apple Valley airport, I cross into a desolate... desert. Nothing but sand and dirt and the occasional road. From this vantage point, I can see some things that I never noticed while on the ground. For example, at the peak of one mountain, there appears to be a little colony of mobile homes. It's prime looking real estate, and I'm sure it has an incredible view, and there are four to five junky Airstreams clustered around a collection of working and non-working pickup trucks.
As I pass a plant/factory of some sort north of Apple Valley that I used as a last minute 'top of descent' checkpoint for my hastily re-written flight plan, I begin my descent. I've got the UNICOM channel tuned in, and I hear people talking about the airport, but I'm in the middle of nowhere, and I can't see the airport.
Visibility is practically unlimited, so it's very disconcerting to be descending already without seeing the airport, seemingly into a mountain. I hold off on my descent a little longer, then, remembering how well my other checkpoints worked, began my descent. As I passed 6500 and then 6000, I realized that my path would not actually hit the mountain in front of me. I'd pass maybe 700 feet over it, no problem.
I continued my descent, radioing at one point that I was 10 miles southwest of the field, pretty much on faith. I passed over a hill, and just as I was about to start climbing to look for landmarks, Daggett Field came into sight from behind a mountain peak, and I was on a perfectly lined up descent into the runway I wanted.
"Daggett traffic, Piper Cherokee 8258 Sierra, five miles out, landing direct on runway 4, Daggett traffic." As I descended, I called out various checkpoints to keep everyone in the loop, then came in for a serviceable landing.
After stopping off the runway, a call came in on the UNICOM asking what I was going to do. "I'd like to park and stretch my legs a little." "Well, come on over here to the south side of the field, by the Chevron sign. We've got parking."
I taxied over, parked, and got out of the plane. The place was absolutely deserted, except for a Cessna that was hanging out at the gas pump. I nodded to the pilot who was cleaning the window and went into the office of the FBO to buy some water. I took some pictures (I'll post 'em on my website as soon as I find the cable), make some conversation with the guy running the shop, then go out and jump in the plane. A quick taxi, runup, then takeoff, and I'm heading back the way I came.
On the way back, I peer left and right, looking for Hesperia airport, but I never see it. No worries, I've got a pass ahead of me that's pretty distinct. I fly through the pass, then turn right to follow the 210 along the foothills past Ontario International airport. I'm high enough that I'm out of their airspace, which is great, because that way I can navigate myself. I fly along, watching airports and marking them off as I go. Beckett, Cable, check. At El Monte, I call SoCal approach ("SOCAL Approach, Cherokee 8258 Sierra, two miles north of El Monte at six thousand five hundred, landing at Van Nuys, request transition of Burbank airspace") so I can get a vector through Burbank's class charlie. He gives me a squawk code and tells me to follow the freeway off my nose and descend to 4500. I'm glad he has me descend, El Monte was roughly my TOD anyways.
After a minute, he calls me. "Ah, Cherokee five eight sierra, wrong freeway, stay south of the freeway to your left now." Crikey! A minute later, all is well, and I follow it in and past Burbank. There, the controller hands me off to Van Nuys airport. Since I'm coming in with a custom squawk, I tune in the tower and just say "Van Nuys Tower, Cherokee eight two five eight sierra with you". This tower vectors me around some other planes ("58 Sierra, turn right 10 degrees please and increase rate of descent." followed by "58 Sierra, now turn left 15 degrees" etc). There's a lot of traffic, so he asks me to make a short approach and clears me for 34R. As I come in short final, he thanks me for the help with all the swerving around. The sky is full of airplanes!
I land (a much better landing then at Barstow) and taxi off the runway. Ground has me taxi back to the beginning, stopping along the way for a big honking jet to cross in front of me. I see him coming just as tower asks me to hold. You bet, buddy! This jet looks like it could eat me, so no problem whatsoever holding. My actual call goes a little more like "Roger holding, 58 sierrra", but that's what I'm thinking.
As I taxi into position next to a Cessna at another hold short line, the Cessna calls (on ground) for right-closed traffic. The ground controller tells him he's on the wrong frequency and tells him to switch. This is just as I switch to tower. I make my call there and get clearance to position and hold. Then the controller tells the Cessna to, if he's listening, get off the ground frequency and join him there on Tower where he belongs. I get cleared to take off, and as I take off, the tower talks to this other cessna a couple more times, saying things like "If you're listening here, you need to transmit AND listen on this frequency!" I'm guessing that the guy has his volume turned down and doesn't understand why nobody is talking to him. Makes me wonder how he got to the runway in the first place.
I take off, get clearance to pass the other planes in the pattern at 1800, then cleared for 2500 as I go over the Sepulveda pass. I've still got my custom squawk, and the controllers all seem to like it because they never have me squawk VFR, instead they call ahead and hand me off to Santa Monica (who also has me keep it) which makes my whole approach super easy. I come in around 110 knots until I turn final because I'm a couple minutes late getting the plane back, and re-intercept the glide slope just as I pass the outer marker and land perfectly. Now, when I say perfectly, I mean "I didn't believe I was on the ground until I stopped off the active" smooth. Best landing ever, and of course there's nobody on board to see it.
It was an amazing flight, and very, very rewarding! This whole dead reckoning thing really works! And this whole pilotage thing REALLY WORKS! Holy crap, everything I've been taught _really freaking works_, and I'm feeling great about it!
Tomorrow morning, I'm going to get a sign-off from my instructor, then fly myself to Mojave. I hope to get some pictures of the boneyard (there are hundreds of planes, including jet liners, just parked out in the desert) as well as take a gander at some history. My official reason for the trip is to review and practice cross-country skills, as well as I scheduled it before I was sure I would have enough XC time after today's flight, but the real reason: I'm moving to Oregon next week (I hope), and I really want a chance to be able to say that I've landed at the Mojave SPACEPORT. It was classified as a spaceport after the SpaceShipOne made its first X-Prize worthy flight. Also, MHV is the worlds only (or best known, I forget which) civilian test pilot airport, so there's guaranteed to be some interesting planes there.
Anyhow, signing off after a (unusually long) writeup.
Did I mention that I LOVE FLYING?!
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Chairboy, I wish I had as good an experience working on my private certificate as you are seeming to have. Congrats and just think...you're almost there :)
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Great stuff chairboy, yes dead reckoning really works. Sometimes it's hard to believe your numbers but it does work. Recently I did a short triangle for practice and found out I really needed the practice! Found myself over a village at the right ETA but realised it was the wrong village! Confusion reigned for a minute until I realised I had left instead of right at a checkpoint. More practice need I think. But it's all great fun.
The story about the Cessna on the wrong frequency is interesting. That kind of thing even happens to the pros. My friend who's a planespotter and likes to sit at airports with his airband radio saw an incident with a Learjet. Told to line up and hold. It failed to move despite repeated calls from the tower. Finally the tower told them to hold position for a landing Airbus only to see the Lear taxy out onto the runway. The result was a go around for the airliner and I suspect an incident report from ATC and a smack on the wrist for the Learjet crew. Another time I was jumpseating on a cargo 727 of my company at the time. There were five of us there on the flight deck in cruise over England. I think they were talking about golf when I heard an ATC call for us. Nobody reacted. A second call was missed. I wasn't on a headset so tried to get the crew's attention. Only to hear ATC call 'Callsign XXX, Hello Hello, is there anybody there??'
That got their attention. Nowdays that kind of thing will get you up close and personal with a couple of fighters. :confused:
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I've been meaning to ask you Chairboy... have you fallen in love with your flight instructor yet?
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I don't know about chairboy, but I fell in love with a couple of my instructors. Women instructors I should emphasise. F**** and R***. R*** was the best instructor I ever had......sorry rephrase that, flew with. Sadly I only one of many students she had.........flew with. Anyway she was living with the Chief Instructor so I was outranked. sigh :(
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Great narrative Chairboy.
I got out flying yesterday for the first time in about a month and a half. The weather in Toronto was perfect, sunny and clear, temperature was minus 5 C.
I got to my plane and decided to do a very careful check as it had not flown for so long. But it was in perfect shape. I topped off the fuel (man is it getting expensive now) and started it up first crank.
If you plane has sat for a while and it is cold here is a technique that seems to work. Shoot 2 shots of prime into the engine and then hand turn the prop about 12 blades. Then give it one more shot of prime and turn on the mags and crank it.
I decided to fly to Sault Saint Marie from Toronto and back again. I have to go there next Friday for a Masters swim meet and have never been there so I wanted to try a practice flight first. It is 275 nm away so it is a good distance.
My flight planning was a bit different from yours I assume. I got out a road map at home and a ruler and measured the distance from my home airport to Sudbury (a long trip I do often as we have a cottage near there). On the ruler it was 60 cm's. Then I swung the ruler to Sault Saint Marie and saw it was 90 cm's. I know it usually takes about 1.5 hours to fly to Sudbury so I added 1/3 more to that time and got 2 hours and 15 minutes. My Cessna 182 has a range of 4 hours with some reserve so I expected to burn about half the fuel.
I took off and steered a course of around 315 degrees. After clearing the Buttonville zone and getting released from the tower ATC I called up Toronto ATC.
When in the Toronto area you have to fly below the YYZ (Pearson International) airspace. At Buttonville it is 2500' and just north of there it goes to 3500'.
"Toronto Kilo Juliet Whiskey" Toronto replied instantly and I continued "Kilo Juliet Whiskey is a Cessna 182 last departed Buttonville on route to Sault Saint Marie. We are at 2.5 request 8.5."
Toronto replied "Kilo Juliet Whiskey squawk 4375 and climb to 5. I can't clear you to 8.5 but when you get there perhaps I will be able to then"
I started a 500 fpm climb and sure enough at 5k he cleared me to 8.5 and passed me off to another frequency. The whole trip to Sault Saint Marie I had flight following and although I did not need it for traffic outside of the busy Toronto area it was nice to know that if I had a problem someone was listening and monitoring where I was.
I landed at the Sault airport exactly 2 hours 15 minutes after take off. My gauges showed half full tanks. I have not calculated exactly how many gallons I took on (plane holds 65 American gallons but fuel is sold in liters) but will later.
GPS was used the whole way but as I was flying over major landmarks like islands and distinctive coast I did not even really need a chart to know where I was.
Oh and by the way. To drive to Sault Saint Marie from Toronto takes just over 9 hours. This is one trip where it really does pay to fly.
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Habu,
Priming an engine and then hand propping it is an invitation to an accident. Turning the blades several times after priming just moves the fuel to the muffler after it washed down the cylinders. After doing checks on multiple magnetos and mag switches I have no real confidence in the engine NOT firing while propping.
If you hand prop without priming you will at least insure the engine is not frozen and move the parts "gently". Hand prop with the fuel off and the mixture at idle cutoff and you are still risking a cylinder firing. :eek:
PLEASE be careful, it only takes once to ruin your entire day.
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I was careful. Key was off and I always do a mag check on shut down to make sure I don't have a live mag.
I don't think fuel in the cylinder can get out when you hand turn the prop. The valve is on the top and and the fuel is liquid. Some will evaporate maybe but it certainly can not run out into the muffler.
I had a ***** of a time starting the engine last time but it was a bit colder. A guy I fly with (old timer with 13,000 plus hours mostly on single engine planes) showed this technique to me and it worked great.
I hate turning the prop by had and I always turn it like I expect it to fire. Slow to TDC then quickly past that while pulling my hands back from it.
In a related note a guy at the airport has a big Russian radial engined plane and he has to hand prop it every time to make sure there is no oil in the lower cylinders. Again you have to turn it 15 or so blades before trying to start it. They do it every time and it is standard for all big radial engines to have to do that.
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This morning, I grabbed a bite to eat, then headed off to the Santa Monica airport Pilots Lounge. It's a nice room with a computer (for showing weather), some big charts, and a desk for doing paperwork. Also there are some couches and comfy chairs for people to hang out and just chat.
I worked out my plan for getting to Mojave, then painstakingly worked out all the headings, altitudes, fuel consumptions, wind speeds, etc. For two trips (there and then back) it took about 1.5 hours for me to do all the math and figuring. I'm sure I'll get a lot faster as I get more practice, or find some computer program to help with the scut work. One thing I'm NOT slow with anymore is my E6B flight computer. I really like spinning that thing around and figuring out numbers. Very satisfying, I can see why some people enjoy slide rules so much.
When I was done, I headed out to show it to my instructor. He asked 'WHICH airport are you going to?' with a grin, referring to the Baker vs. Bakersfield situation the day before. He went over my plan, asked a couple questions about airspace and weather, then signed me off for every airport along the way.=
I went out to the plane, preflighted, and took off (after the usual runup, etc). I turned right at the shoreline and climbed to 3,500 as I passed over Topanga, then called up on the radio.
"SOCAL approach, Piper Cherokee November 8258 Sierra over Topanga and three thousand five hundred, I'd like flight following to Mojave via the I5/I14 interchange."
"Cherokee 8258 Sierra, what's your planned altitude en route?"
"SOCAL approach, climbing to seven thousand five hundred as soon as I'm out from under bravo (referring to the Class B LAX airspace that was 500 feet above me), five eight sierra."
"Roger that, standby for code." After a few seconds, "Five eight Sierra, squawk 0462 and ident." He confirmed my altitude, then let me do my navigation. It was great, he'd occasionally call me to tell me things like "Five eight sierra, traffic at your eleven o'clock, two miles at six thousand five hundred" or "Five eight sierra, traffic climbing rapidly past seven thousand five hundred at three o'clock, two miles. It's a 737 and he's not a factor, but caution for wake-turbulence." Flight following was like having an airplane with all the modern radar equipment I could want, and an engineer to run it. Except... it was on the ground, and the engineer running it wasn't weighing my airplane down.
At the I-5/I-14 interchange, I turned towards Palmdale and followed the freeway as it wound through the mountains. I had a checkpoint halfway (the Agua Dulce airport) and I was very surprised to arrive at it something like two minutes ahead of schedule. I started to wonder if I had made some math error, but it looked right on paper, so I called on the radio.
"SOCAL Approach, cherokee 8258 Sierra, can I get a ground speed please?"
My airspeed can tell me how fast air is moving past my airplane, but there's almost no connection with actual ground speed unless the winds are perfectly calm and I'm down low. His radar has no such limitations.
"Ah, I'm reading your ground speed at one hundred thirty knots, 58 Sierra."
Holy schnikey! I was flying at 103 indicated, so I had an almost 30 knot tailwind. I got a little worried because my weather briefing this morning didn't say anything about winds at alt today, and I didn't look forward to fighting a big headwind on my way back. As soon as I got out of the valley, however, I started hitting my checkpoints on schedule again, so it must have been the air being funneled between mountains that created a temporary 'push' from behind.
I flew out to Mojave, snapping some pictures along the way. I swear, I'll post 'em on my website soon. Still looking for the cable. I got a picture of the Willow Springs race track that my friend John goes to all the time, I'm sure he'll like that.
I descend to the traffic pattern altitude. It's higher then usual, because, well, the airport is higher then usual too. I'm usually flying to sea-level runways, but since Mojave is in the high desert... 2,800 feet. I had read ahead, and the airport is usually uncontrolled during the weekends, so I listened in a little while to figure out the lay of the land, then made my call. "Mojave traffic, Piper Cherokee 8258 Sierra, eight miles southwest, landing, Mojave traffic." Someone else asked for the winds, and some helpful fellow on the ground told him, so I looked at my Flight Guide, checked out the three runways, and picked one that was almost directly into the wind.
"Mojave traffic, 8258 Sierra entering crosswind for runway two two, right traffic. Mojave traffic." When calling to an uncontrolled airport, my instructor taught me to say the name at the beginning and end of my transmission so that if anyone only caught the last little bit, and realized it might pertain to them, they'd know to call out for a repeat. These UNICOM frequencies seem to cover lots of little airports up in the California desert, so I can see a real use in using the name twice.
As I came in to land, I snapped a picture or two of the boneyard. Mojave is a really interesting place. It's up in the desert where there's essentially no humidity, and land is cheap and there's a long runway. As a result, it's turned into an airplane storage yard/junkyard for... everyone. There are 737s, Airbus, military, even Jumbo jets parked out in the dirt at the airport. Whenever there are too many planes in the fleet and they retire the old ones, and maybe can't find a customer, they fly them out to 'store' them in the desert. Any time an airline goes defunct and the creditors don't turn the planes into capital right away, there's a good chance it'll end up at Mojave. Even some military planes end up here, whether as surplus or other, I can't tell. There were also some things out in the desert a half a mile from the airport that I realized were rocket test stands, most likely built for XCOR.
I parked the plane and walked inside. The restaurant was closed (there was a sign saying 'Closing early, happy easter!' I guess if I was really hungry, I might not be THAT happy....) but I found a guy at an admin desk and asked for the tour. He took me to his Van and we drove out onto the field. He took me past some interesting things. First, we stopped at a 737 that had been purchased by some new airline in Nigeria that had a bunch of people re-upholstering. They had a big sewing machine for carpet and were getting it done pretty fast. I hope they have more then an e-mail to work on for payment.... "DEAR SIR, I AM THE PRIME MINISTER OF NIGERIA, AND I HAVE A PROPOSITION FOR YOU", etc.
We drove out to where the Rotary Rocket test vehicle was sitting outside. The building had just been sold, and the ATV (pictured here: http://www.rotors.org/images/1frontpic_2.jpg) had been evicted to sit outside just a week ago. It still looked like new, but I'm sure the desert weather will take care of that soon. I got a picture of it. It was funny to think that, just five years ago, I was about to quit my job and apply to work for Rotary Rocket. I think I could have gotten a job too, as I was willing to work for pennies and had qualifications they needed... but I chickened out. Seeing as how the company ran out of money and folded a couple years later, I guess I lucked out.
We drove out into the boneyard itself, and I got some snapshots of passenger jets in various states of dis-assembly (in some cases, 'dis-assembly' should be translated to 'stuff torn out, as if with a crane), including some spectacular views of 737s behind held up on wooden crates because the landing gear had been (apparently) removed and (likely) sold.
I also saw a pair of C-133s, which had been used to carry atomic bombs to Europe back in the 50s. All the while, the guy giving the tour (Tim) and I discussed economic theory, a subject I didn't know I was interested in, but it turned out we had a number of matching views.
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Afterwards, I thanked him and, after a quick pre-flight, started up the plane and taxied out to runway 22 behind the other visitor, a Cherokee 140, who was also leaving. I took off right after him, and it was funny to see the difference in performance between his smaller engined PA-28-140 and my beefier PA-28-161. I out climbed him pretty quickly and pretty soon we were miles apart.
As soon as I got into the air, I realized that I had forgotten to clean the windshields again. It was covered with dead bugs, and I had meant to clean it earlier, but now I was stuck in the air with these blotches all over my field of view. I'm sure they show up in the photos.
I got flight following again and had an uneventful trip back through the pass. I got handed off from Joshua Approach to SOCAL approach, then SOCAL handed me off to different frequencies no less then FIVE times in the span of like 10 minutes. I must have been flying through some little intersection of their coverage zones, because I was spending more time dialing in numbers then I was flying, practically.
I descended to 3,500 through the valley, staying clear of Van Nuys airspace to keep the approach guys from having to do any extra work, then contacted the Santa Monica tower as I came over the hill.
I landed, nothing noteworthy, and parked the plane. I called to order gas so the next renter wouldn't have to, then cleaned the windshield. I read another student's story about how their instructor (who didn't own the plane) skidded 20 feet to catch an early taxiway off the runway, leaving a black mark on the pavement. I'd hate for someone to do that to my plane, so I figured I'd treat 58S the way I'd treat my own. Windows cleaned, I headed out for the day.
2.2 hours flying, and a much superior method for getting to the Mojave airport. Er, Spaceport. :D
This week, I have practice with my instructor. My check ride is going to be on Saturday out of Van Nuys airport, so we'll do some practice flights in and out of there so I know the area and airspace real good. I wish I was getting my exam out of Santa Monica... but alas.
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Now that you'll be living in Orygun, you might be interested in checking out the annual Northwest Antique Airplane Club Flyin at the McMinnville airport. http://www.nwaac.com/
It's not a very far flight from Springfield.
Right across the road is the Evergreen Aviation Museum that houses the Spruce Goose, among other interesting and historic aircraft. http://www.sprucegoose.org/
I'm living vicariously through your narrative. I bought a Jeppesen self study kit from the local FBO containing a half dozen books, flight computer and even a fuel tester. I'm slowly wading through it but will have to wait another year before I can start flying.
This is my favorite thread. Keep up the great narrative.
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Thanks for the kind words! I've been really enjoying the flying, and writing the recaps afterwards has been a great way to organize my thoughts. I created a yahoo group for my family that we use to keep abreast on what we're doing, and I've been posting my stories there too. It's been neat because some of my family members have been starting to get interested in flying too because of the narrative. If I play my cards right, I might be able to pull off splitting the cost of a plane sometime between fam.
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Status change! My checkride has just been moved up to this Friday at 10AM. This is good, because I will be taking my exam out of Santa Monica instead of Van Nuys, and the examiner is someone who my instructor has worked with before and other pilots at my work recommend.
This morning, I flew with my instructor to Simi Valley where we started some intense review of maneuvers in preparation for the exam. I did a short field take-off, which is unnerving. Remember, this is the one where I pull back on the yoke and climb away from the ground about 10 knots before I usually do, so I really have to watch my stall. It's nowhere near as bad as the soft field takeoff, where you literally fly the plane off the ground while stalled.
I was worried about my proficiency doing turns around a point, so we picked an intersection in Simi and he had me do a turn. Simultaneously annoying and relieving was that I got it right away. My practice a few weeks ago, my instructor theorized, may have been at the wrong altitude.
Twice he gave me engine failures, and both times I did ok. First time, he was a bit annoyed that I changed my landing spot twice, and suggested I pick some place and stick with it. Second time, he wasn't wild about the gentle hill (without people or trees or anything) I picked and suggested that a street or baseball diamond would be better, and that would be what the examiner would be looking for.
We also did unusual attitudes again. I had the hood on, and I swear that a few times, it felt like we were upside down. We weren't, but between the Gs and him saying things like "ok, now we'll do another loop de loop..." to mess with me, it really felt like it. I floated out of my seat a couple times too, but both times I recovered the plane instantly when he told me to open my eyes. Even with the plane on its side with the nose pointing up 30 degrees, I was able to fix things right away (cram the throttle, shove that yoke forward, then level the wings). Same with diving turns (level the wings first while pulling back the throttle, then pull back the yoke).
Then he said "take me to Van Nuys". So I glance at my chart and tune the radio to get Van Nuys ATIS while I pilot us towards them. Well outside their airspace, I call their tower and request full stop. They give me vectors, give me a squawk code (I don't hear the squawk code because I'm not expecting it, good lesson to learn) and I bring it in for a landing. I pooch the short field landing that he tells me to do by touching down too early, but I'll get more practice in the next couple days. I might solo and just do pattern work for an hour to improve.
I taxi back, takeoff, and fly back to Santa Monica.
He didn't have to tell me to do hardly anything compared to a few weeks ago, so I feel like I'm really getting it. He's helping me fly precise right now, and that's really going to help out as I work on my instrument rating down the road.
I'm gonna study my butt off this week, re-reading the regulations and AIM (over a thousand pages of riveting legal-speak), and tonight I'll total up all the columns in my log book and see how many hours simulated instrument, cross country, night, total landings, etc I have. Should be interesting.
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Some photos I snapped while flying to Mojave:
http://hallert.net/misc/mojavesolo/index.html
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This morning, my instructor had another student ahead of me when I got there. They got out of the plane and I introduced myself to him, and it turns out that he's been reading my lesson recaps! It was a real surprise, he had found it via a Usenet post I made, and flattering that he recognized me. If you're reading this, Ahmet, howdy!
After takeoff, my instructor ran me through some maneuvers found on a typical checkride. I did stalls, slow flight, steep turns, hood flight, and more.
The winds were really blowing in Simi Valley, where we were. It was very turbulent, so the plane was thrown all over the place. At one point, I got caught in an updraft and was climbing at almost 1,500 feet per minute, which is pretty spectacular for a plane like mine. ...especially since I was in level flight.
At one point, a twin (it looked like one of the med-flights, planes that drop modified Med-Flies all over the valley to inhibit the growth of the population) came at us, then turned in behind us and flew underneath us. It was really jerky, and messed with our maneuvers until he got out of the way. When I say close, I mean in the 100-200 feet range. Felt like I had an enemy plane on my 6 o'clock.
I did some landings and soft field take-offs. For some reason, I was having real problems with getting these maneuvers smoothly today, so I'll need some solo practice before my exam.
Friday morning, 10 AM pacific. The clock is ticking.... Also, I just got word from my boss that I am go for moving up north to be with my family. We've been apart since November (except for short trips) so I'm really looking forward to it. I sure hope I pass my check-ride, I ain't gonna be around to take it again!
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Today, I had my last flight before my check-ride, and I'm nervous.
My instructor had me fly out towards the valley, then we did various maneuvers as if I was on my checkride. Before I get into details, know that the winds in the valley were really strong and I had to hold the plane about 30-40 degrees to the right of my course to correct for it. That, and they were blowing hard, so it looked like I was sliding sideways over the ground.
I did steep turns (the first one, I messed up because I was disoriented by looking at the ground, then the rest were perfect because I sat far back in my seat, ignored the ground, and watched the horizon and my gauges), stalls, instrument work, and other stuff. When we cross to Simi Valley, the air got extremely turbulent and threw us around like crazy. At one point, my INSTRUCTOR got nauseous, and he's the old pro. For some reason, all my stomach did was get sour, but I was spared actual sickness. At one point, my instructor was asking me "So, you doing ok? We can stop if you want" and I realized that he was actually sorta hoping, but I was fine.
We did unusual attitudes again, and I safely got us out of trouble. At one point, I had a simulated engine out. I found a field to put it down, but the winds really messed up my approach, so I came in high. I would have gotten it down, but probably been still rolling at the far end of the field.
Finally, I came back via the LAX and Santa Monica VORs and did a short field landing. It wasn't great (I touched down at the very last few feet of where I had to) but it worked. I taxied back, did a soft field take-off . The soft field take-off is about gently taxiing without using brakes and making wide turns because you don't want to do anything that'll get you stuck in the dirt. I was saying this outloud as I gently brought us onto the runway and lined up. As I started to advance the throttle, my instructor yelled 'Abort! Abort! Abort!' I yanked back the throttle, then immediately realized I had forgotten the 'lights, camera, action' mantra. After using some brief FCC unfriendly language at myself for this screwup, I flipped on the lights (landing lights and fuel pump), the camera (transponder to ALT), and action (mixture to full rich) and took off. Other then my screw up, which I think is because I was spending so much time yacking about the soft field takeoff, the takeoff went well and and I flew once around the pattern before coming in for a soft field landing.
As you may recall, the soft field landing means basically 'land as gently as possible' because you don't want the wheels to get stuck in the mud and... tumble your aircraft. I brought the plane down with two notches of flaps, then, right as I flared, added a touch of power and inch by inch flew the plane down the last foot until, without even a bump, the wheels touched down and the plane gently alighted on all three wheels.
"Oh my god...." my instructor began, and I worriedly checked my gauges and looked outside to see if there was an obstruction I hadn't seen, because we're still rolling and I'm gently slowing us down, then he continued with "that was the smoothest landing I've ever seen. I wish that was your checkride soft field landing, Ben, that was great!"
On that high note, I parked the plane and we retired to the classroom for some questions/answers. My instructor had to run, but I had an hour scheduled with the owner of the school (another CFI) so that I could get an example of the oral portion of the checkride with someone new. I was frustrated because I messed up some questions/answers about airspace, but I'll be cramming tonight for sure to do well tomorrow.
Tonight, I've got a brief meeting to go through filling out the paperwork/application for the test. 17 hours until my checkride! It's now apparently at 9AM, even though my instructor told me 10. Well, better I get there too early then too late if one of us is wrong.
17 hours!
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Goodluck Chairboy! How many hours do you have going into it? I'm not going to jinx you by saying you'll pass with flying colors :).
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You're DOOMED!
I spoke with the oracle...she showed me an image from Chairboy's future...
(http://www.rcflying.com/crash/funone.jpg)
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Yaaaaaaaaarrgg!
Regarding hours, I'm at 52.8.
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For disclaimer purposes...that photo was a joke :p
You'll do great...just don't screw up :D
By the way...what's your jacket size? I know it's unusal but I had an idea.
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So, I woke up this morning at a quarter to six, and was showered and dressed and out the door shortly after. I grabbed some coffee at Starbuc-buc-buc-bucks and waited until they opened the airport so I could finish my planning in the pilots lounge.
I spent a few hours last night studying and plotting out the trip to Paso Robles airport, but I waited until this morning to get current winds/weather so I could finish the math. After a half hour, I had all that done so I studied some more. During this time, I heard the tower clear 8258 Sierra for flight and watched my instructor take off w/ my plane (I admonished him not to break it before my exam), then later on heard him cleared for landing. I walked out on the patio and watched it land and snapped a couple pictures.
I studied some more, and finally, it was 9 AM. I went to the classroom where the examiner was already waiting. He introduced himself, and we got started. First, he briefed me about the test, including giving me an idea of the structure, told me I could take notes if I needed to help with mnemonics (does GOOSE A CAT mean anything to anyone else? It does if you're a pilot... or an animal hater). Finally, he collected his fee (I can see the value in doing that BEFORE the test begins) and we got started.
He quizzed me on systems, regulations, and spent a lot of time on airspace. He had me list off all the altitudes, visibility requirements, cloud clearances, necessary pilot qualifications, and required equipment for each airspace. Class golf airspace may be uncontrolled, but that sure doesn't mean it's uncomplicated. There is a LOT to know about it, and after a little bit of pain, I got it all out.
One thing I missed a little on was the oxygen/altitude requirements. I had the right ideas, but got some of the numbers wrong. No biggy, just something to study up on.
Finally, I showed him my flight plan to Paso Robles (no confusion about THIS airport, that was a relief. If there was a Palos Robles or Palo Rosso, I'm sure we could have had another Baker/Bakersfield moment) as well as my weight & balance worksheet. After he approved this, I called 800-WX-BRIEF and got the weather.
Dial, ring, menu, then: "Hawthorne flight service station."
Me:"Good morning, I'd like a standard weather briefing."
Him:"Go."
Me:"Flight type will be VFR. Aircraft tail number is November 8258 Sierra. Aircraft type is papa alpha dash two eight dash one six one. Departure airport is Santa Monica, flying via Thousand Oaks to Camarillo (he asked me to get weather for our actual flight, not the flight plan) and back and forth around the Simi Valley practice area. Estimated time of departure is, uh, about forty five minutes from now, and planned altitude is..." I glance up as the examiner gestures the number "4" with his hand, "four thousand five hundred, with maneuvering at four thousand. Estimated time in the area is about one and a half hours."
Him: "Well, you picked about the worst time possible to fly out there."
Me: "Uhhh....."
It turns out that there's lots of turbulence, wind shear, and the local airports report gusts from 25 to 35 knots. I ask him about taking the Special Flight Rules Corridor down to the Long Beach practice area instead, and he reports winds that are a little, but not much better. The poor winds, plus my relative unfamiliarity with the area (I'd want to spend some time looking at the charts before I maneuver down there) makes me make a hard decision.
"Glenn," I start, after briefing him on what I found, "it's not great." He responds with "it's your call. We can go fly if you want, or try and reschedule the flight portion."
Now I'm stuck on the horns of a dilemma. I'm driving up north on Monday, and I'm losing my margin of error here pretty effectively. He's assumed a perfect poker face, and there's no indication from him about what to do. Gradually realizing my role as Pilot in Command is in effect, I come to a decision.
"I think we should abort. I really want to take this test right now, but the winds are too heavy." I'm concerned about maneuvering close to the ground, also worried about what these up and downdrafts will do to me during precision moves like Steep Turns that have tight tolerances before you fail the maneuver, and consequently, the test.
He nods, then sits back. "I couldn't say anything before you made your decision, but I agree with you. Good call on the weather. We'll reschedule for tomorrow at 4."
We chat for a little as the owner of the school comes up. He asks us what's happening, and the examiner tells him. It's such a beautiful day out that the owner seems skeptical, but when he tunes into the Van Nuys ATIS and calls Camarillo and Oxnard for weather, we hear words on the phone like 'gusting' and 'turbulence'. Finally, he turns and agrees with the call as well.
But there is a complication... the plane is reserved from noon to five on Saturday! Someone else is taking their check ride with an examiner in Van Nuys. Hoping that he'll be back a bit early, my examiner and I pencil me in tentatively for that block and on Sunday for a backup.
Tomorrow morning, I'll take the plane up for a little last minute practice and to gauge the weather myself before the other student leaves for Van Nuys. I can hope for the best while I plan for the worst.
General Weather... you got Napoleon, you got Hitler, and now you got me.
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Golfer: Not sure, maybe 2X. Why?
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I was looking for something along the lines of "46L" or "38R"
I'm running ideas through my head...as long as you're not near the exhaust pipe you typically won't get hurt when I'm thinking :p
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Heh, well, I asked my wife, and she has no idea since I've lost so much weight since the last time we bought a coat. ?????
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Good lord man! Take a string, measure around your chest in inches and then tell me how tall ya are.
For instance...
My chest size is 44
I am a hair over 6'0 so that makes me a 44L. If you're 5'10 or less you'd be a regular. lemme know :)
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So.... I went flying this morning as some last minute practice. I flew out to the Simi Valley practice area and practiced steep turns and S-turns, two things I knew I needed practice for.
I also did a soft-field landing. I'm feeling pretty good about them now. They're kind of awkward, but I think I got it.
I came back and did a short field landing... sort of. I overshot my touchdown point, but I'm confident I'll get the next one. If I feel it going south during my checkride, I'll do a go-around. According to the examiner, that's ok.
Regarding the checkride, the plane didn't get back in time, so I had to cancel my flying test today as well. Glargh! Tomorrow at 4 it is. A friend of mine organized a little get together (he called it 'Ben Voyage') at Speedzone in City of Industry to wish me off tomorrow at 6 (I'm moving to Oregon). Since my checkride is at 4, I'm sure I'll be a little late, but I think people will understand.
Hey, if any of you in LA want to come and race cars and whatnot, come on down! Might be fun, just look for the group of people spazzing out on Dance Dance Revolution and drinking and yelling at someone named 'Ben', that's me. :D
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Ah! I'm 49 inches around my chest, and I'm 6'2". Does that make me a 49L? Ah, I'm learning new things all the time! Speaking of which, time for my update.....
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*** NEWS FLASH *** NEWS FLASH ***
This afternoon, I was hanging out at a friends house when someone asked me what time it was. I glanced at my watch and told him it was 1:30. Puzzled, he asked me if that was taking daylight savings into account.
"Daylight what-now?" I asked. After a brief discussion, I realized with a chill that if I had not had this chance discussion, I would have been an hour late to my check ride.
I showed up about a half hour early to the airport. I went to the FBO where the examiner was based and he was chatting with another gentleman when I walked in, and he greeted me. We walked out to the plane and he stood back and let me pre-flight it without any comment, then climbed in. I started it up and taxied to the run-up area and got the engine warmed up and all the instruments set up. When I was done with my checklist, I called for clearance and taxied to the runway. As I did, he told me he wanted to see a short field takeoff.
We waited for 5-10 minutes because of a bunch of traffic coming in and leaving ahead of us, but when we got our turn, I rolled out onto the runway (he told me I didn't need to hang my tail out over Bundy, the street right off the end of the runway), pivoted, ran up the engine, checked my gauges, then started my takeoff roll. I rotated, then (when he called the 50' obstacle) pushed the nose down, cleaned up the flaps and climbed out at 87 knots. I felt good about the maneuver, and he didn't say anything, so I started climbing out over the pacific towards the practice area.
As we approached the Topanga pass, it became clear that there were a bunch of clouds in the valley. "It didn't look like that this morning," the examiner mentioned. I ended up having to dodge a cloud to maintain VFR cloud clearance rules.
In the valley, he told me to find Santa Paula airport and point it out. I find it on my chart, and see that it's due north of Camarillo airport. I've used that as a landmark many times, and landed there too (heck, it was my first non-Santa Monica airpoirt I landed at). "No problem" I say confidently. After five minutes, I was a little less confident. The valley is filled with low clouds, and at one point I had to climb a thousand feet to clear some clouds before descending back to look for the airport.
After a couple passes over the town, I was really starting to sweat until I finally noticed a runway-like structure sticking out of a river. On closer inspection, I was able to see that the airport had been halfway washed out by the river, but it was indeed there.
After this, we did steep turns. I got it perfect, we re-intercepted our wake. I did a stall recovery, as well as unusual attitudes, and some instrument course changes. After we finished this, he gave me an engine failure. It went ok, but I could have picked a better field.
Finally, he told me to take us home. I flew back through the Malibu canyon, then up the coast back to Santa Monica. I made my calls entered the pattern and did a short field landing. I was really nervous about touching down within 50 feet of the white mark, and I was tempted to do a go-around, but touched down and made it.
I taxied back, then did a soft-field takeoff. Finally, I brought it in for a soft field landing and taxied back to the lower southeast to park it.
He wasn't saying anything, and I started to get more and more nervous. Did I pass? Did I fail? I had a sick feeling in my stomach, but I kept a positive attitude and parked the plane. As I brought the plane to a stop (with the engine off) he turned to me and said "Congratulations!" I just about passed out, but I took his hand and shook it. I swear, the grin on my face is going to have to be surgically removed.
I got my temporary airmens certificate, so I am now a pilot! I can't wait to exercise the privileges of the certification!
I drove out to Speed Zone and met my friends, where we raced and drank and climbed a moving rock-wall (it's like a vertical conveyor, hard work). I got back late this evening, and am just now going to bed.
Tomorrow morning, I'm getting in my car with the last of my possessions and driving up north to live with my family again. I can't describe how happy I am to be going to them.
I called my wife after the exam and told her "Honey, do you want the good news or the bad news first?" She told me to give her the bad news. "Honey, the bad news is... we're gonna have to buy a plane, because I just PASSED MY EXAMINATION!"
Of course, if she had asked for the good news, I would have responded "The good news is... we get to buy a plane, because I just PASSED MY EXAMINATION!"
PS, my wife Kaydee also did something very cool today. She took a gun safety course, and went in one day from really nervous about guns to the point where she's planning on getting her concealed carry permit in the next few weeks. Wins for both of us!
I AM NOW A PILOT! W00t!
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Given your past entries in this thread sir...
I was not surprised to hear the good news.
Very well done! and a big fat "Doh!" on your size, I misjudged ya. I am selling a few items on ebay and I had one of these items not on the auction block yet. Tis a very nice Nomex flight suit size 46R and I had a contact who can make nametag ID's with your air force wings on them. You can either get lyposuction this week or not worry about it and enjoy your new white slip :)
Congratulations, sir.
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Congratulations! You've earned it.
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WTG Chair and welcome to the Club!!!
Blue skys and Safe flying !!!
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I have followed this thread from the begining. What a great trip and congrats. You will be a great pilot.
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Congrats Chairboy. Now don't go out and kill yourself. Get a few hours every month and time/$$$ permitting, get some extra ratings too. You've got a license to learn, so use it :)
Seriously, lots of dead guys were the ones who got their licenses and then didn't fly enough to keep proficient. Budget enough time/money to keep proficient (additional ratings is a great excuse), or do like my Dad did, admit that you're not flying enough to be safe, and stop altogether.
But enough philosopherizing... To the bar!!!
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Thanks everyone! I can't wait to go out and stay current, and I look forward to starting on my instrument rating as soon as possible.
Golfer, that was an awful kind idea! I think I've got a ways to go before I'd fit (if ever), so I think I'll follow your other advice and go enjoy my new certificate instead, but thanks anyhow! Next time I'm in Vegas, I'll look you up and take you out for a drink. Heck, maybe I'll be able to show you whatever dirt cheap IFR plane I've managed to buy at the same time. :D In regards to that, it's now time for Operation "Convince my wife to let me buy an airplane". I'm pretty sure there's a better codename out there somewhere... this might not be as obfuscating as usual.
Not a second too soon on getting the certificate, btw. This morning, I moved for keeps out of Los Angeles and now live in Springfield. It was a long drive, but... it was close! If I hadn't passed, I'm not sure WHEN I could have taken the retest. Whew!
In the immediate future, I think I'll get my complex endorsement and tailwheel. There's a Cessna 172-RG (A 'Gutless Cutlass') at a nearby airport for rent, and anothre airport has an Aeronca Champ.
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With regards to Vegas, it was a short two week stint of good weather to knock out my CFI, CFII and MEI ratings. I'm a resident of Ohio and will remain so for the time being :)
Do you have any particular bird in mind for "Operation Canary?" You just missed out on two 172s a friend of mine had for sale he had to sell at a loss because of a bad situation with a flight school to which they were lease backed (they simply did not pay him and he is owed by them in excess of $15,000) so be very cautious on leasing the airplane back should you choose to do so. A nice Cherokee with a 160hp engine is always a good choice. The always faithful and forgiving 172 is a fantastic instrument platform as is the 182 should you be requiring six cylinders to feed your appetite.
Excellent choice on the complex/tailwheel endorsements. Now is the time while you're keyed up on learning and they are going to do nothing except make you a better pilot. Make friends with the gear handle in that Cutlass...I've had to use it twice for real in the 172RG. Inspect prior to each and every flight by pulling it out and having a look-see at it's condition. It's on the checklist, but take care to do so because it's often skipped in practice. I did my tailwheel in a Citabria only recently, though I have about 50-60 hours in tailwheel airplanes including an Aeronca Chief, Taylorcraft, Luscombe and even a Pitts among others. I offered to help one of the old timers at the airport build banners and set them up for pickup in exchange for a tailwheel endorsement so I could start logging tailwheel time. Kinda stinks to really "need" the total time and you're not allowed to put it in the book.
Now I'm in the market for a Pitts S1C however things are quite hectic now and I don't have time to really shop around which is a very good problem to have as a freelance CFI with no initial private pilot students. All of mine are either IFR or multi students and I've got such a full plate I've already got two ground schools in the works. One for Instruments which runs 3 hours once a week for 6 weeks the other for Multi which is only 4 weeks and a 2 hour class. I signed off my first checkride last week. A Multi-Engine add-on for a commercial pilot and darned if he didn't pass :D
Enjoy your ratings. Keep your eyes & ears open and absorb all the information you can for your first 200 hours because like anything else, when you're new at something is your highest level of risk. Stay current, and for goodness sake if you are feeling uneasy about a flight...take a CFI with you. That's a cheap $20/hr (off the flight school's books) insurance policy. Congratulations again :)
Chairboy flying off into the sunrise:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/621_1112704014_scenicottersunrise2.jpg)