Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wolfala on December 10, 2004, 04:58:03 PM
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I havn't been able to find many combat reports on how it performed in late 45 and Korea. My only first hand account is Dukemskt who flew them back in the early 60's and said it climbed like an angel that misses heaven compared to his A26K.
WW, with your encyclopedic knowlege of Grumman and the 2800 series birds, could you shed some light on this?
Wolfala
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It never saw combat in WW2, was used as a night intruder in Korea IIRC.
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While it never saw COMBAT in WW2, it was deployed just at the end of the war, thus allowing the possibility that HT will put it in some day as a perk plane (similar to Ta152).
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Ta 152 saw combat.
Crumpp
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Believe that Grumman F8F Bearcat was really close to see combat before War ended and I really don't think that F7F was close to see action.
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Originally posted by Leatherneck
Believe that Grumman F8F Bearcat was really close to see combat before War ended and I really don't think that F7F was close to see action.
The F7F was deployed and flying in theater before VJ day. They just didn't go operational in time. F8Fs were inroute on carriers, and they were operational, but still several days from the western Pacific.
My regards,
Widewing
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The F7F was deployed and flying in theater before VJ day. They just didn't go operational in time. F8Fs were inroute on carriers, and they were operational, but still several days from the western Pacific.
So how many Japs did they shoot down?
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Wolfala
I havn't been able to find many combat reports on how it performed in late 45 and Korea. My only first hand account is Dukemskt who flew them back in the early 60's and said it climbed like an angel that misses heaven compared to his A26K.
WW, with your encyclopedic knowlege of Grumman and the 2800 series birds, could you shed some light on this?
Wolfala
Two versions of the F7F were deployed to fight over Korea. Of these, the primary was the F7F-3N night fighter (the other being the F7F-3P recce model). They were used to intercept night raiders and did some pretty good work. They also performed escort duty for B-29 night bombing missions over North Korea (VMF-513). On occasion, they were pressed into ground attack service too. Tigercat crews loved their planes. Eventually, all were replaced by the jet powered Douglas F3D Skynight, because while the Tigercats could intercept and kill Lavochkins and Yaks, it wasn't fast enough to intercept MiGs. In general though, the F7Fs did a better job than the USAF's dedicated night fighter, the F-94. By the way, not one B-29 was lost to enemy aircraft when being escorted by the F3D (during night-time missions), and several MiGs were splashed.
There's not a lot written on the F7F in Korea, but VMF-513's combat reports are available on CD-ROM.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Crumpp
So how many Japs did they shoot down?
Crumpp
Didn't you notice that I said they weren't operational by VJ day? Loaded question, of course you noticed, you just elected to ignore that in order to push your agenda. If you have nothing to contribute in this thread, just go away.
Widewing
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Didn't you notice that I said they weren't operational by VJ day? Loaded question, of course you noticed, you just elected to ignore that in order to push your agenda. If you have nothing to contribute in this thread, just go away.
No Widewing. Just making sure there is a clear highlight to your agenda. Your the one who piped in the thread saying "They were enroute to being operational". I piped in to add to what Krusty posted and to correct the mistake that the F8F or F7F would be "like the Ta-152". The Ta-152 saw combat and scored a number of kills. Niether the F7F or the F8F fired a shot or even saw enemy aircraft during the war. Big Difference and a whole new line HTC would be crossing.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Krusty
While it never saw COMBAT in WW2, it was deployed just at the end of the war, thus allowing the possibility that HT will put it in some day as a perk plane (similar to Ta152).
Widewing,
how Crumpp can read this as the Ta152H not seeing combat can only be put down to English not being his primary language.
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what i want to know is how many japanese the ta-152 shot down?
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how Crumpp can read this as the Ta152H not seeing combat can only be put down to English not being his primary language.
Milo.
I was not claiming Krusty did not realize the Ta-152 had not seen combat.
There is a fundamental difference between an aircraft which saw combat and one that was too late to see any or never made it to the front. If HTC starts modeling planes that did not participate in WWII then were is the line?
We going to model Do-335's and He-112's? At what point does a WWII sim cease to be a WWII sim?
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Milo.
I was not claiming Krusty did not realize the Ta-152 had not seen combat.
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We going to model Do-335's and He-112's? At what point does a WWII sim cease to be a WWII sim?
Crumpp
Sure, what ever Crumpp.
Better tell the Hungarians and Romanians that their He112s were just in their dreams.
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Better tell the Hungarians and Romanians that their He112s were just in their dreams.
Interesting. Did not know they had 54! Well BRING THE HE-112 to AH. It has more business in the game than the F8F or F7F!
Crumpp
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Nice hijack Crumpp.
The question was directed solely to WW - not to you because of his education dealing with all things Grummann and Pratt R2800 series birds. So do yrself a favor, before you make yourself look like a complete dick - if you have something to say, say it in private - otherwise bite your tongue.
Wolfala
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no the 112 would be bad, but id like to see the 111-z, i dont care if it doesnt do anything, itd just be hilarious to see!
(pssst...)
<-----------------icon
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Nice hijack Crumpp.
The question was directed solely to WW - not to you because of his education dealing with all things Grummann and Pratt R2800 series birds. So do yrself a favor, before you make yourself look like a complete dick - if you have something to say, say it in private - otherwise bite your tongue.
Wolfala
With all due respect (which is not a lot), perhaps it is you who should say things in private if the question was "directed solely to WW" instead of posting the question on a BBS?
You do make yourself look like a complete dick.
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GScholz, after all your attacks on America and its citizens you have the guts to say that?
Pot calling the kettle black...
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*lol* Please find one post where I "attack" America. Define "attack" btw. Perhaps you mean criticize?
And JFYI I do have the guts to say pretty much anything.
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To my mind the Ta 152 was a "precedent too far"..........
The even the HE162 is more appropriate.
There are a whole bunch of Meteors, P-63's, F7F's, F8F's etc etc that have no right in a WWII air combat sim/game IMO
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what i want to know is how many japanese the ta-152 shot down?
Shane, here is how World War 2 was organised
America
Great England
Canada
Verses
Japan
Germany
Russia
So if a ta-152 shot down a japonese, it would be friendly fire.
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Tilt says:
To my mind the Ta 152 was a "precedent too far"..........
The even the HE162 is more appropriate.
There are a whole bunch of Meteors, P-63's, F7F's, F8F's etc etc that have no right in a WWII air combat sim/game IMO
Absolutely!!
Screw all the late war WunderBirds.....
The workhorses we have now will do the trick. There are too many types that did serve and are needed much more in the planesets than any Uberhumpdeedoodle Mk 109 hovertank. Or whatever Arlo calls it.
Crumpp
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Krusty prolly meant to compare the 152's perk pricing.
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Hehehe sun tracker.... nice post.:D
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Shane, here is how World War 2 was organised
So if a ta-152 shot down a japonese, it would be friendly fire.
you might want to re-calibrate your sarcasm meter.
:D
and pssssst... i do beleive russia was on the allied side in WW2.
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Originally posted by Shane
and pssssst... i do beleive russia was on the allied side in WW2.
LOL as in "potatoe"
Is Suntracker Japanese? maybe he sees the Russian/Japanese non aggression treaty as putting them on Japans side.:rolleyes:
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I'm sorry, I became confused.
Alies-
America
Russia
Canada
Axes-
Germany
Great England
Japan
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Russia, Germany, Japan is correct if you pick mid 1940- mid 1941
As to the Bearcat getting in the game. I have allready been fighting a flame fest on this one on the IL2 boards.
Some people seem to think there is some established historical line. If a plane saw combat. They even prefer to include prototypes that saw combat over series production fighters that might not have. Of course this distinction only really hurts the two US birds.
They seem to be saying that the most important issue in deciding if an aircraft was a "ww2" aircraft and therefore an Aces High aircraft is how close the manufacturing country was to the front lines.
I think this is an artificial and convienient distinction that just serves their purpose. If the aircraft they were interested in were on the bad side of that distinction they would argue the oposite.
The only "line" that HT should consider is:
Was the aircraft developed and delivered in ww2 to line units and is enough known about it to model it?
The only issue is the perk price. The game has a mechanism in place to allow these aircraft to be included. A few perk carrier birds would be a great addition to the game. IMHO.
Both these Grumman birds should be in the game. IMHO
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Originally posted by Pongo
...The only "line" that HT should consider is:
Was the aircraft developed and delivered in ww2 to line units and is enough known about it to model it?
The only issue is the perk price. The game has a mechanism in place to allow these aircraft to be included. A few perk carrier birds would be a great addition to the game. IMHO.
Both these Grumman birds should be in the game. IMHO
Agree 100%
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Originally posted by Pongo
The only "line" that HT should consider is:
Was the aircraft developed and delivered in ww2 to line units and is enough known about it to model it?
The only issue is the perk price. The game has a mechanism in place to allow these aircraft to be included. A few perk carrier birds would be a great addition to the game. IMHO.
Both these Grumman birds should be in the game. IMHO
If a plane was in production (not prototypes) and in
sqaudron serviceduring WW2, it should be in AH.
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I find it hillarious that the F7F and F8F guys say the other standard is "self serving."
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Originally posted by whels
If a plane was in production (not prototypes) and in
sqaudron serviceduring WW2, it should be in AH.
To my mind it should have seen active (combatative) service (against enemy planes or positions) in at least squadron strength.
Which makes even the 152 a very marginal case if a valid one at all.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Russia, Germany, Japan is correct if you pick mid 1940- mid 1941
This is not correct either.......Russia was never part of the axis alliance.......... Stalin wanted to be neutral right up to July 41.
and "Great England" (Great Britain ?) was not part of the axis alliance either.
Some guy called Winston Churchill refused peace offerrings.
BoB = one huge freindly fire incident?
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GS,,
Consider the question: I started the post. So if you had something productive to contribute (which you do not) - then take the previous advice.
It was a simple question that was asked and some historical info that was requested.
Viewed in that light - No hard feelings!
Wolfala
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If we ever get a F7F/F8F, I want a La-9 too. *drool* :eek:
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This is not correct either.......Russia was never part of the axis alliance.......... Stalin wanted to be neutral right up to July 41.
Yup.
Soviet Russia, neither officially nor unofficially, was in any kind of affiliation with the Axis. If the close diplomatic contacts and conferences with the Germans, before Barbarossa was initiated, would make them "Axis", then by that standards the UK would also be "Axis" before the initiation of the Poland Blitz.
To my mind it should have seen active (combatative) service (against enemy planes or positions) in at least squadron strength.
Returning to the original theme..
Wouldn't the Ta152 be considered about the final border line before going off the "WW2-scale"? The production/deployed numbers may have been small, but weren't they officially admitted as a part of the JG301, in official service under normal sanctioned operations, flying organized sorties, seeing small amount of actual combat on a more or less regular basis?
To me the F7F or F8F clearly does not seem to be that case. Personally I absolutely hate the plane choices 1C:Maddox has made for IL2/FB, and think anything like the Salamander or the Gotha, or the Kikka, Shooting Star would be out of the question for a WW2 sim. But I think the Ta152 or the Me163 does belong inside the 'boundary'.
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Well.
Tell the poles that the USSR wasnt part of the Axis in 1939.. Im sure they would find it hillarios. You all know that the Soviets and Germans divided Poland in 1939 right? Isnt that ususally something that allies do?
Gurnhurtz. Ya it is funny. I acknolege that. But the whole discussion is silly.
People draw their lines in the sand but thats all they are. lines in the sand that really mean nothing.
The second an ensign launched a sorti to patrol over his carrier en route to the front in 1945 the Bearcat was a WW2 combat Aircraft. Period.
Why would anyone even dream of saying differently? Because no enemy plane bobbed up in front of the it? So where the pilots that flew it not participants in WW2 either?
People do not want to see the Uber US iron. dont try to come up with silly excuses and qualifications that "prove" they should not be in a WW2 game. They should be.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Gurnhurtz. Ya it is funny. I acknolege that. But the whole discussion is silly.
Then why go restate your case about in the silly discussion immediately after that sentance?
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Isnt that ususally something that allies do?
Actually that's what the entire western powerhouses have been doing all over the world between 1875 and 1945 - like how the Brits would draw abstract lines in the Middel Eastern deserts and call it 'territories', or how US would wade into Phillipine and South American countries and call it theirs by right of conquest.
Axis-Allied distinction is a very clear political/military term. Division of Poland and playing patsy with the Germans doesn't make Soviets 'Axis', just as same as the Brits and French in cahoots with Germans, Russians, and Japanese, in the destruction and division China, doesn't make them "same side" before WWI.
Our own country was divided half in 1945 by Soviet occupation in the North and US occupation in the South. We don't go calling US a part of the 'Soviet bloc', do we?
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USSR was not a part of the formal axis alliance, however they were clearly allied with Nazi Germany in their invasion of Poland in September 1939.
In fact I'm surprised that the western allies did not declare war on the USSR in 1939/1940 considering all their invasions and/or annexations of Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia..
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Home many naxis fit on the head of a pin?
The russians were playing with the bad guys in 1939-mid 41..period.
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I think Pongo's idea is the best.. if it was in squadron service it should be OK to introduce into the game. Personally I'd love to see the F8F and F7F in the game.
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I don't see how it even matters if it saw service at all in WWII. The MA isn't a WWII recreation in any way except simulated hardware. There are many nice perk rides out there if you're not too picky on the credentials. The entire MA is a "what if" arena, so why not have "what if" perk rides too?
Historical scenarios don't use the unhistorical planes anyways.
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Originally posted by Krusty
While it never saw COMBAT in WW2, it was deployed just at the end of the war, thus allowing the possibility that HT will put it in some day as a perk plane (similar to Ta152).
Actually the F7F was deployed operationally in April 1944, however it did not see combat at all and wasnt deployed to frontline units. It's actually a mid 44 bird not a "latewar" plane. Even though it never saw combat technically it was fully operational in may 1944...
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Milo.
I was not claiming Krusty did not realize the Ta-152 had not seen combat.
There is a fundamental difference between an aircraft which saw combat and one that was too late to see any or never made it to the front. If HTC starts modeling planes that did not participate in WWII then were is the line?
We going to model Do-335's and He-112's? At what point does a WWII sim cease to be a WWII sim?
Crumpp
Crumpp your wrong here...
The F7F wasnt "late"....just not deployed
Very similiar to the M-26...was available long before it was deployed for service...
Delivery of the first single-seat, land-based F7F-1s to Marine Corps Fighter Training Squadron 911 (VMF-911) began in April 1944
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Humble, the same can be said for the 262. It was also delivered to training and evaluation units in early-mid 1944.
Btw. mid 1944 is definitively "late war". The war started in 1939 and lasted to mid 1945.
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I agree with pongo.
Had the germans been knocking on the door to chicago in 1945, while the Japanese were driving on Dallas, I would expect that the P-51H, F8F and F7F would have fired some shots in anger while the TA-152 would not.
The only significant difference is that the Allies had the luxury to slowly and safely train up fully operational squadrons in the rear specifically to fly the new types, and when they were ready move them to the front. Even the Meteor, which was ready to fly front line combat fairly early on, was held back because there was no need to rush it to the front.
The Germans and Japanese lacked the fuel to do the same training approach, and even the ability to train up in safety. Kurt Tank's story about outrunning the Mustangs tells it all. Do you think the head of FW would have flown in a combat zone if it weren't for the fact that all of Germany was a combat zone? Why not rush initial production "trials" aircraft directly to the front lines? At least the "veterans" in 1945 had a few hours of flight under their belts -- better than loosing them on the ground or to the Russians.
IMO you can go either way from a fairness standpoint. Include inital production series aircraft like the Ta-152 where a handful were thrown into the meat grinder before their time because it just didn't matter, and include the aircraft that were at a similar production/deployment stage but not pushed directly to the front line because there was no need. Or, don't include either.
Personally, as GSholz points out the MA is not meant to be a recreation of WW2 so for me, the more the merrier. Might even be some planes actually worthy of the typically hight perk rates we see.
Charon
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Originally posted by GScholz
Humble, the same can be said for the 262. It was also delivered to training and evaluation units in early-mid 1944.
Btw. mid 1944 is definitively "late war". The war started in 1939 and lasted to mid 1945.
The F7F production orders were signed same day as the F6F (early 1942 I think)...And I agree very similiar to 262 in timeline...had it been needed the F7F would of been in front line combat by D-Day....