Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: mars01 on December 13, 2004, 12:28:58 PM
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Just out of curiosity, I would like to know the community stance on this topic.
If you have a guy on your six and you luered him in so that he is 200 to 400 out carrying more speed then you and you snap roll so that he misses the shot and flys by is this a valid tactic or just gamey?
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Are you talking about an 'induced warp roll'?
or just rolling to avoid getting shot?
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It's a bit cheezey.
....but it's a game. We all do things in the game that we most likely wouldn't do with our tulips really on the line.
As long as it's not something that couldn't actually be done...(shrug)...what are ya gonna do?
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Lets say its WWII you are in a spit you look back and you see a 109 at d400 closing fast. You know he is proly squezing the triger already. You know that if you snap roll he may miss. What would you do?
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I think he is talking about a move that, for example, starts with a hard roll to the left that causes an accelerated stall. The plane then, nearly instantly, rolls 180 to end up in a right bank.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Lets say its WWII you are in a spit you look back and you see a 109 at d400 closing fast. You know he is proly squezing the triger already. You know that if you snap roll he may miss. What would you do?
I think that without the benifit of 100's or 1000's of hours of "simulator" time to practice this move, you probably don't recover.
...that's just a guess though.
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I am talking about a snap roll, basic acrobatic manuever. Close Furious, it is an accelerated stall, but it starts as a Pull full back on the stick and kick full left rudder. If you only want a single roll, you come in about 3/4s of the way around with oppisite rudder to break the roll and forward stick to break the stall. Same procedure to break a normal upright stall.
Now if HTC says that the Snap Roll is not modeled well and it creates a flopping motion due to internet lag or FM, then yeah it is poor taste. But honestly in all my films where I am just fly Acro in the TA the snaproll looks right.
Spits don't do great snaps, but LA7, P47, F4U ect snap like a charm.
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I draw the line between a snap roll and stick stirring dweebs who flop around like a fish out of water. A snap roll is a legitimate aerobatic manouver, stick stirring is not. It's easy to tell them apart when they occur.
Last night I encountered three straight stick stirrers. It was pretty pathetic. They warp around and perform aerobatic moves that are physically impossible. I wish HTC would code something that causes them to black out or fly straight and level for thirty seconds when they stick stir.
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I draw the line between a snap roll and stick stirring dweebs who flop around like a fish out of water. A snap roll is a legitimate aerobatic manouver, stick stirring is not. It's easy to tell them apart when they occur.
I agree with this. Stick stirring is lame and creates some weird results on the screen where as a snap roll is a basic manuever.
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In FB/AEP you can one sweet one in the 190 by pulling hard back stick, cut throttle and hard rudder to which ever way the wing drops. Many times the guy will shoot by and end up right in front of you.
I haven't played AH in some time but there's one version where they flop the rudder and yaw all over then flip over over. It happens quicker then I could type it...
But I call this an 'induced warp maneuver'. The plane jumps about.
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The object is not to get shot... all tactics are 'fair'
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
The object is not to get shot... all tactics are 'fair'
If you are intentionally causing your plane to warp, that is NOT fair imo.
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Originally posted by Furious
I think that without the benifit of 100's or 1000's of hours of "simulator" time to practice this move, you probably don't recover.
...that's just a guess though.
Wll, lets say the guy has been flying for a year. In any case, I would think that taking that chance is better than a load of 30mm
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there is one KEY factor in this.
if a pilot snap rolls and produces the tiniest bit of lag because the server cant handle it then thats fine. if it was intentional and controlled he/she will correct instantly and continue normal flight.
on the other hand, if the guy snaps it then keeps flopping, with no regard for gaining control again then i consider this stick stirring. and lame.
snap roll in 40Jug is great. bank one way then pull hard and kick rudder in the opposite direction. within 1/2 second you must counter it with the exact opposite rudder and stick. generally you will end up upside down and in perfect possition to dive under your opponent.
just my 2p
batfink
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I've had it happen from both sides--real slow speed roll to cause reverse and bam--sucker snap rolls--it does cause an overshoot tho:)
Same thing on cons six--pull up from lag pursuit to take a shot and away she goes.
Stick stirring on the other hand is pathetic.
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Ive only seen 1 person in 3 years of AH really do a snap roll. Way back in July of 01 I was a noob. I was flying my 109 odve in from high on Helm's ki-61 opened up at d600, he snap roll perfectlyout of my way, he did it again on the next pass, But by this time StSanta came in in a 109 as well, I went low, Helm's SA failed him as he Snap-rolled again on StSanta's pass, I came in low 6 and nailed him.
Though against anything armed with hispanos,.50s,or niki spray guns the snap is suicide
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Ive only seen 1 person in 3 years of AH really do a snap roll. Way back in July of 01 I was a noob. I was flying my 109 odve in from high on Helm's ki-61 opened up at d600, he snap roll perfectlyout of my way, he did it again on the next pass, But by this time StSanta came in in a 109 as well, I went low, Helm's SA failed him as he Snap-rolled again on StSanta's pass, I came in low 6 and nailed him.
I don't think they are that hard to do IMO, nor do I think they are right in every situation. The snap roll is one of my last manuvers.
Point in case, I was in an LA7 in a 3 turn scissors with another LA7 as he pulled within 400 I backed off the throttle and snap rolled the airplane, he got a good ping on my engine and it died just as he went flying by and I completed the roll. I got off some nice pings as he went flying by but no engine low to the ground damage done.
Next thing I know shane is crying on channel 200 about me flopping all over the place. I was surprised he didn't recognize a snap roll.
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i know *a* snaproll when i see one, but not a continuous one for about 10-15 secs while you were floppyfishing all over to avoid getting shot.
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Commonly known as the dryland trout manuever. :D
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I agree with this. Stick stirring is lame and creates some weird results on the screen where as a snap roll is a basic manuever.
I think you just answered your own question there. ;)
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i know *a* snaproll when i see one, but not a continuous one for about 10-15 secs while you were floppyfishing all over to avoid getting shot.
10 to 15 seconds lol, it only lasted at most 5, if I was flopping so radiacally, how did I get my plane upright and score hits when you went flying by.
Then you proceeded to rant on channel how a snap roll is such a Noob move. Again I disagree. Yeah if your only manuver is a snap roll then you are a noob, but the snap at the end of our scissors, with you at higher speed and close range was a good and effective move. Had you not gotten my engine this may have been one of the few encounters with you that I might actually have won. lolh. Unfortunatley with my engine dead I could not stay behind you in the turn.
Hammy, the question was to get a consensus from the folks here on the board, not to answer any burning question for myself.:)
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try flying inverted then do a snaproll....them are fun
I snaprolled the F4u-1 today by accidnt while in about a 45 degree climb, dang thing got away from me for a second or 2....and it saved my bacon!
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A smoothing of others' departure from normal flight envelope (flop on our FE) would be VERY welcome.
Something with netcode?
The snap-garbage may look like a tight roll on your FE, but to the guy on your six the plane literally does 180s about ALL axes. Recovery on your end is rather easy - and pointing your nose for a shot as he overshoots can certainly be done. On your opponent's FE it certainly doesn't look anything resembling a departure when his arse is pointing at you one second, then his guns are ripping you up the next.
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So what are you saying Octavious? That any snap roll done will show a plane rotating about all three axis and that snap rolls can not be done correctly?
I have seen other people snap roll their airplanes in AH and recognized it as such. Not anything that you described.
And honestly anyone that is just throwing the plane into an uncontrollable stall are not going to recover in time to get a decent shot.
I have been behind many 51s that just throw the plane into a stall spin and they are easy targets.
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Originally posted by mars01
I am talking about a snap roll, basic acrobatic manuever. Close Furious, it is an accelerated stall, but it starts as a Pull full back on the stick and kick full left rudder. If you only want a single roll, you come in about 3/4s of the way around with oppisite rudder to break the roll and forward stick to break the stall. Same procedure to break a normal upright stall.
Now if HTC says that the Snap Roll is not modeled well and it creates a flopping motion due to internet lag or FM, then yeah it is poor taste. But honestly in all my films where I am just fly Acro in the TA the snaproll looks right.
Spits don't do great snaps, but LA7, P47, F4U ect snap like a charm.
In AH1 the pony (B or D) would do really fast, crisp snap rolls. AH2 I can't get em to do it at all. Pony just mushes around without rolling...
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In AH1 the pony (B or D) would do really fast, crisp snap rolls. AH2 I can't get em to do it at all. Pony just mushes around without rolling...
I havent tried a pony, what is your entry speed?
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Originally posted by mars01
So what are you saying Octavious? That any snap roll done will show a plane rotating about all three axis and that snap rolls can not be done correctly?
I have seen other people snap roll their airplanes in AH and recognized it as such. Not anything that you described.
And honestly anyone that is just throwing the plane into an uncontrollable stall are not going to recover in time to get a decent shot.
I have been behind many 51s that just throw the plane into a stall spin and they are easy targets.
I'm just saying whatever maneuver a pilot tries to pull, visually it does not look the same on both FE's... to me anyway.
As for it being valid tactics, sure why not. I think they're great, but I avoid doing them for the whole FE visual difference thing. I dont like flops :)
They might be easy targets, but when you're d200 off their six, there isn't any way you can cut that much speed to stay with them. Once they recover, their E seems to be restored as well... depending on what they did (snap roll or complete ugly stall).
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Shane always cries over chan 200 regardless of what happens.
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Hey mars, do you think you could make a film of the recognizable snap roll?
I haven't fought many pilots (in the MA) that can perform good reversals. I guess normally for me these wild floppy maneuvers are initiated on accident or out of panic by the tard in my gunsight... I can't recall one planned snap roll to throw me off. Maybe I was dead by the time I realized what happened and never recognized it in hte first place :)
If we're online at the same time, I wouldnt mind a demo if you're able :)
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Mars did one for me the other night and while it did look a little floppy on my FE, I could tell that it was snapping only on one axis (horizontal ?).
On the other hand we have what Jackal describes and appropriate named as the "dryland trout manuever". There are too many players using this tactic.
It seems that somewhere around 400-600 out on their six, they pull back on stick as hard as they can which induces something that probably has even been given a name in the aeronautical world as of yet (I will lobby for "dryland trout manuever"), which cause them to lose speed at a rate which only a Jedi knight can react to to get a shot off. This causes an immediate overshoot (if you don't ram the bastage trying to get guns on him) and if you don't zoom, you will find them gracefully flying their plane on your 6 ... where is GLOC when ya need it.
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rgr Oct, I'll will be on tonight, around 7-8 EST, I'll look for you. I would also like to do some tests aswell and another pair of eyes would be cool. So if we dont run into each other I'll keep my eyes out for you.
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There's a possibility that the only reason such a maneuver works in AH is because from the fe of the attacker it appears as a 'warp roll'.
It could be an example of an inadvertant exploitation of the net code.
I liked to see the film from the FE of the attacker...
But as to whether its gamey or not who cares. There far worse things then this.
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There's a possibility that the only reason such a maneuver works in AH is because from the fe of the attacker it appears as a 'warp roll'.
Hey Wotan are you talking about the snap roll or as Jackal put it, aprapo, the land trout manuver?
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Whats the one that causes the plane to appear to spin in all 3 axis without any forward movement.
Some players seem to have this off to a tee.
Seems to be prevalent to Lala's and P38s, although have seem it done in a Mossie and F4U.
If its intentional, yup its gamey as its exploiting a 'bug' or whatever in the code.
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Whats the one that causes the plane to appear to spin in all 3 axis without any forward movement.
Too me it looks like a snap roll into a flat spin.
IMO a Lumchovok (spelling) almost the same thing, but I don't think they are intentionally doing Lumchovoks
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Originally posted by Octavius
Hey mars, do you think you could make a film of the recognizable snap roll?
these wild floppy maneuvers are initiated out of panic by the tard in my gunsight...
ding... ding... ding...
we have a winner.
that's why i say it's a noob manuever, it's mostly panic. or done dweebily, knowing the visual effect it'll have.
I get overshoots all the time. i've never had anyone tell me (but now i will for sure) that i flopped all over.
i have had the occasional wing dip stall as well as the snap roll, but never deliberately.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
It seems that somewhere around 400-600 out on their six, they pull back on stick as hard as they can which induces something that probably has even been given a name in the aeronautical world ....
aka "snaproll"
duh.
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Ding Ding Ding
Have you ever seen a snap roll done in real life Shane?It seems that somewhere around 400-600 out on their six, they pull back on stick as hard as they can which induces something that probably has even been given a name in the aeronautical world ....
The fact that you think that is a snap roll shows you can be good and not know anyhting. I would think you could tell the difference between a snap roll and an induced flat spin.
BTW - I have plenty of films doing snap rolls. I will find one but I have no where to host it.
Mars did one for me the other night and while it did look a little floppy on my FE, I could tell that it was snapping only on one axis (horizontal ?).
Also shane, if you are going to pull stuff out why didn't you pull the above one out. Notice he said rotating on one axis, that would not be flopping all over that place as you describe. Nice try tho lol.:rofl :aok
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A snap roll is similar to a horizontal spin. It is an autorotation with one wing stalled. Figure 3 shows the symbol for a regular snap roll, figure 4 for an outside snap. In the regular snap, the plane has to be stalled by applying positive g forces. In an outside snap, the plane is stalled by applying negative g. In both cases rudder is then used to start autorotation just like in a spin.
The above is a good explanation of a Snap roll found at http://www.skyjackmotorsports.com/IAC24/aresti.html (http://www.skyjackmotorsports.com/IAC24/aresti.html)
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he said it "looked a little floppy"
the thing is what i saw, you weren't "rolling on one axis."
i know a what a snap roll looks like, and it doesn't take even 5 secs to perform one.
simply put you were fish flopping it, as seen on my FE, the only reason you even got a shot off on me when i "overshot" was i honestly thought you were going in, so i eased out of it and pulled ahead, then presto, you're just fine.
call it whatever you want, many in here recognize it for what it is, gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish... take your pick.
as someone who's been around long enough, i find it amusing you'd need to resort to a tactic like that. as i said i get overshoots all the time and i don't have to "snap roll" to do it.
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Mars
I was there when you and Shane got into the debate on channel 200. In fact I asked exactly how to do a snap roll and both of you answered if you remember. Shortly after that I found myself diving on a spit. As I closed the spit appeared to flop on my FE two or three times then as I passed it leveled out. I knew I was going to overshoot and had planned for it so no problem. Turns out it was you Mars doing snap rolls. While I'm not saying that you are purposely flopping, the end result on my FE was flopping. I guess it's an internet lag thing that causes this.
I have seen several focke wulfs do this since I returned to AH. The most memorable ones flop around as soon as you get within 1k of their six. I really can't say how they keep from stalling or spinning the plane. They tend to benefit little from this move as it appears to be their only move (the guys who flop at 1k). It is usually pretty easy to stay a little over and behind until they crash or get tired of flopping around.
In fact it is so bad that I wondered if the "dont move your controls so fast" thing had been disabled. I checked and you can get that message. I had always assumed that those folks were pretty new and just kind of freaking out. I never really knew that it was snap rolls. The most irritating thing about all of this is that they don't seem to lose that much speed. It would seem to me that if your plane is flying every which way then drag would tend to slow you down quite a bit.
By the way once you and Shane told me how to snap roll I realized that I too have done this but its always been accidental as it's a departure from controlled flight for me. I don't really know how to recover quickly from it and frequently wind up in a flat spin. It normally happens when I am trying to pull up and onto an enemy plane's six (lag pursuit to lead pursuit for a shot). It has also happened when attempting a reversal if I am a bit slow and not paying attention to what I am doing. I can usually feel it coming on now and can normally avoid it altogether by easing off the stick slightly. The thing is that while snapping the plane has definately spoiled a shot that someone attempted on me, it has almost always resulted in my eventual death. The recovery makes me lose angles on the nme plane and usually leaves me with much lower e relative to the nme.
When I do the reversal thing I try to maintain controlled flight throughout (ease off throttle, easy turn, chop throttle and extend flaps if necessary with barrel roll opposite of the initial turn). This allows me to maintain a predictable flight path for a snap shot on the overshoot or to maintain position on the six of the overshooting nme if he is too slow to get away.
I'm not saying a snap roll is or is not valid in general. It's just not a useful thing for me since it normally results in a stall/spin for me. Certainly if it causes a flopping effect then it's gamey but maybe that's not true for all players.
Zaphod
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he said it "looked a little floppy"
the thing is what i saw, you weren't "rolling on one axis."
i know a what a snap roll looks like, and it doesn't take even 5 secs to perform one.
simply put you were fish flopping it, as seen on my FE, the only reason you even got a shot off on me when i "overshot" was i honestly thought you were going in, so i eased out of it and pulled ahead, then presto, you're just fine.
call it whatever you want, many in here recognize it for what it is, gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish... take your pick.
as someone who's been around long enough, i find it amusing you'd need to resort to a tactic like that. as i said i get overshoots all the time and i don't have to "snap roll" to do it.
Shane you contradict yourself even in your own responses.
First you say, "On my front end it looked floppy." Fine then I would have to accept that there was some internet lag or something. But then in the same breath you say that a snap roll is "gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish".
So what was it flopping around of a gamey noobish move?
As for the 5 seconds, that was regarding the whole interaction after our third scisors. From the time you pulled the trigger to the time you shot past me.
Hmmm many recognize this as "gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish" boy you see only whay you want to. So far no one that has replied has said this.
Yeah, my only move is a snap roll that is the only move I have. LOLH.
A snap roll is just another tool in the arsenal, to be pulled out at the right time. The fact that you can't see this doesn't suprise me at all.
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Hey Zap,
Funny thing there is, I don't snap roll in a spit because it doesn't do them well so I'm not sure what moves you are refering to. I may have the film of that one, I will take a look.
Actually I remember the encounter, you were diving in from my high six in a P47. That was a scissors not a snap roll. I'm not sure how you could even see if I was flopping since you were blowing past so fast.
That is the funny thing, I think alot of people mistake flying edge to edge as flopping around, when in fact there is a big difference. People that are aimlessly, skilllessly flopping around like the fish aren't flying, in most case my plane is under control and flying.
departure from controlled flight for me.
That is because it is an accellerated stall.
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try and convince yourself all you want, you're not convincing me.
you're merely taking advantage of the fact that the netcode can't deal with the sudden axis changes and displays them weirdly, floppily if you will.
zaph, the difference between this and stick stirring is that stick stirring means you're actually trying to yank your stick all over the place, while for a snap roll all you do is hold the stick back and let the FM/net code do the flopping for you.
what most people refer to as stick stirring these days *is* in fact a "well-executed" "snap roll," aka floppy fish manuever.
as a matter of fact i did it deliberately during my exchange with mars when dmdrodan was on my 6 in a tiff. i can honestly say it took no skill whatsoever to perform. and i highly doubt the FM accurately reflects what a series of extended snaprolls would actually result in, hell, i bet it's even more kick-*** if you also have the stall limiter on (which i bet mars does :D )
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Shane I could care less to convince you. I don't fly for you I fly for me.
Your the one that has a problem with it not me. As far as weather or not you think I'm a dweeb, I could care less dude.
I learned a long time ago not to put alot of weight in what a poor sport and soar loser thinks, no matter how much talent they may have.
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oh, and mars, the fact that it's been *several* days since this event occured, in conjunction with you seeking some sort of BBS absolution/validation, simply indicates that you *know* just how dweeby doing that deliberately is. mmmmkay?
but hey, if you're comfortable with it, at least you got your answer.... or rather, you were able to pick out the answer that makes you feel all better about yourself for doing it.
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Originally posted by Shane
aka "snaproll"
duh.
duh ... I know what a snap-roll is and have seen Mars do one.
What I was describing was a situation where the plane is rotating on all 3 axis at a rapid rate ... that is what the "dryland trout manuever" looks like to me.
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I'd like to see films of both a legitimate snap roll and the flopping around that others describe. I haven't seen a good example of either to be honest, so I'm certainly not going to take any sides on this.
I worry that there are things that I do because I'm not a great stick that are actually 'gamey' moves. Frankly, the only way I would do it is by accident when freaking out trying to shake a good stick off of my six.
If it weren't for the forums I probably wouldn't know I did anything wrong at all since I keep the public channels squelched 90% of the time. I'd rather know I deserved a kill rather than just have one land in my lap.
I'll be happy to host any of them if a host is needed.
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the problem with filming a fish floppy is that while you actually *see* it occur, film itself contains all the appropriate data and smooths it out on playback... snaprolls are easy to see on playback.
it's a netcoding thang that relates to the data sent that results in the visual weirdness one actually sees as it occurs.
this is why you always see some saying about fish floppys... "show me." the irony is you can't... you can only experience it firsthand.
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Shane there was no dweebery. I am sorry I brought your name into this.
After I did the snap roll for slap, he said it looked a little floppy. So I was concerned weather it was the game or your perception.
All I wanted to find out is if the game did not handle snap roll inputs well and what the community thought about the manuver.
I blew all that when I named you so I apologize to everyone for turning the thread the wrong way.
As for plank, don't take sides there is no need to that wasn't my intention.
I will get some films together of the snap roll and see if I can capture the land trout. Hopefully someone will have a good one of the trout.
Ohh BTW - The several days thing is really 2 days cause it happend Friday night. I haven't been infront of a PC since then and was busy doing weekend real people, Saturday - Sunday stuff.:D But again I was wrong to name you, my bad. Enough of me and you.
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the problem with filming a fish floppy is that while you actually *see* it occur, film itself contains all the appropriate data and smooths it out on playback... snaprolls are easy to see on playback.
That is a good point shane and may have some validity.
If anyone cares and see me on, I'd like to run some test, I'll snap, then I'll tri to floppy fish, you tell me what you saw. Then you do it so I can check it out.
Plus this will be more fun then digging through films.
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here's a few offline and online test films
offline snap roll:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1102988140_offlinesnaproll.ahf
online snap roll, me in lead doing it:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1102987882_floppylead.ahf
online snap roll, hub in trail trying to stick on me:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1102988098_floppytrail.ahf
he said i looked floppy, film shows how it can be kind of floppy. in hub's film you can also see me kind of warp a little bit.
watch them from various views and angles. it's a lot smoother looking in offline as opposed to online - showing the inherent impact nedcoding/routing has.
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My claim to fame will be coining the phrase "dryland trout manuever".
After my lemonade stand failed I just knew there would be something out there for me if I kept looking.
After the completion and publishing of my new book, " Firsthand Encounters With The Dryland Trout Manuever", I will be going on tour for autographed copies at your local bookstores across the world. Check your local newspaper for time and dates.
Hmmmmmmm............... I wonder if Mouse would like to hook up and go on the tour. ;)
HT if you need any data on this manuever to add to the AH help files just give me a shout. My people can meet with your people and do lunch to discuss royalties, etc. :lol
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Originally posted by mars01
As for plank, don't take sides there is no need to that wasn't my intention.
Oh no worries, I'm done taking sides on the forums especially when I don't know jack. I was just wondering what they looked like for my own good.
Shane, thanks for posting the films I'll check them out when I get home.
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Snap rolls work well those times when you are happily cruising along minding your own business and suddenly see tracers whizzing past your canopy.
it's an automatic reaction to that situation that can sometimes get you out of trouble. It's all over in about 2 seconds either way,
if I see the guy coming I would always do a more controlled reversal.
So I would call it an emergency maneuver not a standard maneuver. Don't see any problem in using it though.
The prolonged floppy fish is a way different thing.
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Originally posted by mars01
I havent tried a pony, what is your entry speed?
Tried various entry speeds from just above stall to more than 250 mph. All tests at low weight and low alt. In AH1 you could get a real nice snap roll to the right and an absolutely insane one to the left. In AH2 all that happens in the pony is the stall horn goes off and the plane barely responds to the rudder input, no matter what speed or power setting. The only discernible roll seems to come from engine torque. IRL The pony has a laminar flow wing which is very sensitive to AoA. I'd expect it to do really fast snap rolls IRL...
BTW IRL almost any sort of spinning maneuver (including snap rolls and longevacks (sp?)) will eventually progress into a normal spin attitude if left to develop without recovery.
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We'll shane, the trail snap roll did not look right at all, I will give you that. It looked like the VC just displayed one right side up image and then one right side down image and then a final right side up. I agree that is lame.
The other films the snaps looked good.
Well there is our bench mark, Iwill try to get some samples with another guy and see what they look like.
Anyone else a couple different people diff samples would be cool and some what difinitive, just for shts and giggles.
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Originally posted by mars01
Hey Zap,
Funny thing there is, I don't snap roll in a spit because it doesn't do them well so I'm not sure what moves you are refering to. I may have the film of that one, I will take a look.
Actually I remember the encounter, you were diving in from my high six in a P47. That was a scissors not a snap roll. I'm not sure how you could even see if I was flopping since you were blowing past so fast.
That is the funny thing, I think alot of people mistake flying edge to edge as flopping around, when in fact there is a big difference. People that are aimlessly, skilllessly flopping around like the fish aren't flying, in most case my plane is under control and flying.
That is because it is an accellerated stall.
That just shows how good my memory is. Your right I was in a jug (I remembered it as a stang....freakin sometimers) and I was moving along really fast. That is why I wasn't worried about getting reversed or overshooting. It was a foregone conclusion so I didn't really press for a shot, just hoped for a sneak and stayed safe on the pullout :).
At any rate I thought I asked if you did a snap roll and you responded yes.....however you were in a conversation with Shane and might have been responding to him...I don't remember. It may also be that I just assumed you were doing the snap roll and didn't ask at all. It just looked floppy and not like a scissors at all from my end. I see those somewhat frequently from the better fliers and that is pretty easy to see. It has never looked floppy for the entire manuever. It seems that most lag induced flopping during a scissors is only occuring when during the actual roll then smooths out as they pull through the scissors until the next roll. This usually looks like a flop, pull, flop, pull etc. Again...I'm making no accusations on purposely flopping your ride, but the entire evasive maneuver looked like continuous flopping from my end.
Zaphod the Memory Deficient
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Originally posted by Shane
the problem with filming a fish floppy is that while you actually *see* it occur, film itself contains all the appropriate data and smooths it out on playback... snaprolls are easy to see on playback.
it's a netcoding thang that relates to the data sent that results in the visual weirdness one actually sees as it occurs.
this is why you always see some saying about fish floppys... "show me." the irony is you can't... you can only experience it firsthand.
If the data is there for the film viewer to record, that means it should also be there for the game to display right? Lets not forget that the past weeks have been lag heaven in AH. Could it be that that is the cause of what you are seing?
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you guys should stop fighting over this.
if the snap roll happens there is two outcomes.
1: you gain control instantly after the roll. if this produces a little lag then its the game's fault not yours.
2: if you dont try to/cannot gain control and start to 'warp spin/flop' then this shows a lack of the will to fly within the boundries of the game. this is done in panic and is gamey.
the biggest offenders i find are 190s and la7s as they snap roll easy.
sounds to me like Mars's manouver was in the first catagory as he was able to fire a controlled shot off at his attacker.
should forget this thread now, or arguments and resentment will soon follow.
the film viewer records exactly what your FE see in my experience.
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Originally posted by mechanic
you guys should stop fighting over this.
if the snap roll happens there is two outcomes.
1: you gain control instantly after the roll. if this produces a little lag then its the game's fault not yours.
2: if you dont try to/cannot gain control and start to 'warp spin/flop' then this shows a lack of the will to fly within the boundries of the game. this is done in panic and is gamey.
the biggest offenders i find are 190s and la7s as they snap roll easy.
sounds to me like Mars's manouver was in the first catagory as he was able to fire a controlled shot off at his attacker.
should forget this thread now, or arguments and resentment will soon follow.
the film viewer records exactly what your FE see in my experience.
I think the animosities and accusations ended when Mars apologized to Shane ... kissy face and huggy bear stuff ... ya got to love it.
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Yeah I have seen what Shane is talking about, now I would like to know if it happens all the time, 50% of the time or 10% of the time.
I made some films in the TA and my snap rolls were beautiful. Some really nice shots.
I then filmed 1HungLo snap rolling and it looked just like he did it in the film. Yeah his looked floppy, but I'm not sure if it was how he was doing it or the net lag.
It will suck if snap rolls are rendered poorly due to the net lag. They look so nice in the films and are a fun move.
Does anyone have anywhere I can post the first set of films?
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Howdy Aces,
Kev and I had tried to recreate this 'dryland trout manoover' (mispelling to avoid copyright infringement) back in beta, and never pulled it off, using la7 and p38, iirc. I don't think we really pushed it near the edge of a stall, so its not necessarily, or at least doesn't appear to be, a function of violent inputs.
My suspicion is that the extent of the floppiness depends heavily on plane, current connection status(quality, anyway), and probably also on input damping, weapon/fuel loadout, and of course, speed, angle, and of course, the pie-luts, but, most heavily on the skill of pilot at making a solid maneuver at the edge of stalling. This would make for a pretty wide set of variables for a recreation, but I've noticed the floppiness mostly from 190s, 38s, and the occasional la7 that get down low and mix it up in a furball at comparatively low speeds.
I mostly fly the hurri, mostly low, and normally with all sorts of violent maneuvering and rolling out to avoid getting shot. I use a good bit of stick damping (1/4 to 1/3 up the slider), and have not yet been accused of flopping (sure that's gonna change now). While the hurri isn't prone to violent, unexpected stalls/snap rolls, if the DTM were a result of violent stick inputs, I'd have it mastered. I don't see the floppy fish bit lots, which I think tends to support, to some extent, the panic-induced, and possibly dweeb-induced DTMs. I still see many planes simply come up/down/around at an angle and then roll merrily out of my sights, which makes my angry, but only b/c i blew the shot, not because they got on the tilt-a-whirl of doom and shot me as i blew past.
Surely someone with an intimate knowledge of the airplanes (i'm a 1 plane wun-dur) could select a batch of the planes that roll most sharply and run some tests with a small group of the same folks, and see how it looks for all involved. My feeling on all of this, is that even if it is a good move, and the game simply can't handle it, we've got a problem. I've very few problems with the game, even on a miserable dial-up conn atm, but seeing a plane whirl around like a leaf then dive/climb/turn suddenly and without any indication which way its gonna go, well, that just sucks buttermilk.
Anyhow, I'll shut up now. I need to go tear apart a sink. :(
Blue skies,
hub
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Originally posted by mars01
Yeah I have seen what Shane is talking about, now I would like to know if it happens all the time, 50% of the time or 10% of the time.
I made some films in the TA and my snap rolls were beautiful. Some really nice shots.
I then filmed 1HungLo snap rolling and it looked just like he did it in the film. Yeah his looked floppy, but I'm not sure if it was how he was doing it or the net lag.
It will suck if snap rolls are rendered poorly due to the net lag. They look so nice in the films and are a fun move.
Does anyone have anywhere I can post the first set of films?
Send them to me ...
Slapshot44 (at) optonline (dot) net
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Cool should be there slap!
Thanks.
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Originally posted by mars01
S
I will get some films together of the snap roll and see if I can capture the land trout. Hopefully someone will have a good one of the trout.
But...wouldn't it be an air-trout?
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I have seen this phenomena several times. I have seen aircraft look like they are tumbling throught the sky right as I am about to get a kill. Usually I just juice the throttle, wep, pull flaps up if neccessary and set back up.
Personally I will try to make someone overshoot with cutting engine dropping some flaps and turning hard and down (if alt allows) if that doesnt work I try to lose em in the trees.
I believe I can usually discern acm from garbage. This stick stirring or whatever you want to call it is trash. snap rolls are not.
Bring Back The NIGHT!!! or just like 10 mins of it so when you get to taget its dawn.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Bring Back The NIGHT!!! or just like 10 mins of it so when you get to taget its dawn.
yeah lets change the subject, since this thread was posted I have somehow let it slip into my non coherent brain cells and have goofed 7 times in 2 days with this absured manuever of "noobs" as Shane is calling it :-)
and have let it get away from me twice......sooner this thread dies the better off I will be .....
ah and bring back 10 minutes or at least 5 of the Night Time like them early dawn or sinking sun flights!
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Well here are Mars' films ...
mars.snap1.ahf (http://24.151.4.182:82/images/mars-snap1.ahf)
mars.snap2.ahf (http://24.151.4.182:82/images/mars-snap2.ahf)
mars.snap3.ahf (http://24.151.4.182:82/images/mars-snap3.ahf)
mars.snap4.ahf (http://24.151.4.182:82/images/mars-snap4.ahf)
mars.snap5.ahf (http://24.151.4.182:82/images/mars-snap5.ahf)
All of his snap rolls look great ... and maybe that's, as Shane surmises, the film viewer is smoothing them out (no netcode involved) ...
BUT !!!!
In mars-snap2.ahf, he is chasing 1HungLo and when 1HungLo does a snap roll at the end of the film, that is what I would call an abbreviated version of the "land trout manuever". It's nasty to say the least ... this is probably what Shane saw when he encountered Mars the other night.
Looking at that, it appears that the plane should be ripped apart from the forces that it is under and there is no way, even if you recover from such a manuever, would you have enough E to be any threat at all. I only wish that Mars showed us more on this film to see exactly how well 1HungLo recovered.
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Originally posted by Edbert
But...wouldn't it be an air-trout?
Naw. You see the whole point of the "dryland trout manuever" originates from the fact that it behaves like a fish out of water, i.e. dryland. Floppin all over the place.
This terminology was created way back in combat flight history. (3 or 4 days ago at least)
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Hey slap,
Thanks.
He recovered easily.
I am guessing, but on his end I would bet it looked like a good snap roll as in my other films.
Now to be honest, and 1HungLo could answer this, I'm not sure if all he did was pull back and kick left rudder. If he did then yeah there is a definite net lag problem with doing sap rolls and I understand Shanes point.
[edit] the following shot didn't make it, nefver mind lol.
There is one cool shot, in the film where 1HungLo is on the runway and I am coming down and behind him, at the same time Alpha is comming down the other way, if you get into Alpha's plane there is a great view of a double snap right in front of him.
Then you can hear him say, man that other corsair looked out of control. Again, I'm not sure if he saw the snap and wasnt sure what it lookeed like or on his end it was the floppy fish.
I would also be interested in what HTC has to say, if they know about this, can fix it, or it is just something we have to live with and a constraint of the internet.
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The film 'capture' IIRC just captures data points and re-constructs them in the film viewer. It doesn't capture every frame. It smooths out those data points so you don't see the jumps from point to point.
What Shanes sees, and what Mars sees is what I meant above:
There's a possibility that the only reason such a maneuver works in AH is because from the fe of the attacker it appears as a 'warp roll'.
It could be an example of an inadvertant exploitation of the net code.
I liked to see the film from the FE of the attacker...
But as to whether its gamey or not who cares. There far worse things then this.
Mars may think he pulls a nice smooth planned maneuver but what shane sees is a flop and warp. The question then arises:
Was it the smooth ACM by Mars that allowed the maneuver to work? Or the fact Shane saw a warp flop and thought the guy had stalled etc...
The times I have experienced such 'snap rolls' in AH I can honestly say it was the 'warp flop' that was deciding factor.
YMMV
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Film 2 is deffinite proof of a problem with the game. what hunglo was doing was a perfectly good double snap roll, he ended up facing the right way and made Mars overshoot. that really needs fixing.
essentially this mean the 'DTM' is someone snap rolling and then not finishing the move, and stalling vilolently.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Commonly known as the dryland trout manuever. :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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first..thsi is ghey
2nd...http://WWW.FLIGHTLADDER.COM
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Naw. You see the whole point of the "dryland trout manuever" originates from the fact that it behaves like a fish out of water, i.e. dryland. Floppin all over the place.
This terminology was created way back in combat flight history. (3 or 4 days ago at least)
I was going to say that from personal experience a trout will also flop about wildly when tossed into the air. But then I figured the PETA types might report me and figured I should say "so I've been told".
Carry on...