Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Holden McGroin on December 15, 2004, 07:34:50 AM
-
Pyongyang Says Japanese Sanctions Would Amount to 'War'
By Steve Herman
Tokyo
15 December 2004
North Korea has warned Japan that any sanctions against the communist state would be regarded as a declaration of war. Opinion polls show about two-thirds of the Japanese public supporting economic sanctions over the issue of Japanese kidnapped by North Korea during the Cold War.
2/3 of Japanese Citizenry wants war with N Korea (http://www.voanews.com/english/2004-12-15-voa7.cfm)
>edit: sources say this will not effect the Scott Peterson verdict
-
make war, not love... err i meant the other way around!
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
>edit: sources say this will not effect the Scott Peterson verdict
The Media is good at what they do.
Ever watch a magician try to distract you from his other hand? Hope you didn't think the trick was real :rolleyes:
-
seems hiroshima and nagaskai weren't harsh enough lessons...
while NK may not have a nuclear bomb per se, i'm sure they could use some missles and make a "dirty" warhead.
and to trot out this oldie....
"war never determines who's right... only who's left."
i'd sure as hell oppose any US intervention/assistance if Japan actually declares war - which i seriously doubt, anyway, vox populi aside.
-
I find it ironic that North KJorea says 'sanctions' are the reason for war. That is why the peace talks between the US and Japan fell apart in 1941 .......
-
Eet is all fault of eevil Boosh!
-
Originally posted by Shane
seems hiroshima and nagaskai weren't harsh enough lessons...
while NK may not have a nuclear bomb per se, i'm sure they could use some missles and make a "dirty" warhead.
and to trot out this oldie....
"war never determines who's right... only who's left."
i'd sure as hell oppose any US intervention/assistance if Japan actually declares war - which i seriously doubt, anyway, vox populi aside.
If I read that correctly, North Korea is threatening to declare war on Japan, not the other way around. And we won't have a choice but to intervene. Japan is an ally. Besides, North Korea would also attack South Korea and we're already there.
-
Mouth of a lion, will of a mouse.
-SW
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Besides, North Korea would also attack South Korea and we're already there.
Not to mention assets still in Japan.
When I was stationed over in Misawa Japan, things would heat up in Korea at least once a year. There was only once when we actually thought it was 4th and goal.
-Sik
-
I don`t know of too many places NK hasn`t threatened.
I think maybe Bahgdad Bob took up residence there. That`s about what it amounts to... All show and no go.
-
Oh Seoul would definintely "go" very soon after the North Koreans attacked it..
-
I think Seoul would be gone before anyone had a chance to say "go" or "here they come!". They don't need any nuc's to flatten it they have enough artillery pointing at the city to do the job....
-
Thats what I weas referring to..
-
So how long will it be till the UN Chides Japan for it's actions?
-
Doesnt NK say pretty much EVERYTHING amounts to a "declaration of war". The question is does the world really want to call their bluff?
-
I've got a lil over 11 years in SKorea. NKorea is like a lil stray mutt that yipes and yipes until ya kick the livin watermelon outta it.
They'll bark about anything but never bite.
I say "Bring it on!!!"
:D
-
NK is one very angry hobbit.
-
Eet is all fault of eevil Boosh!
well if you want to get technical yes it is his fault..... at least partially
It all started with the axis of evil (the most tactless thing ever... by all means hate NK but to telegraph your hate is without tact...) speech clearly sabre rattling them.. As a response to USA's preumptive follow thru in Iraq (as per axis of evil speech), NK had justification to weaponize whatever fission material they had (most likely were doing it anyway.. )but now they had literal proof of clear and present danger to their regime...... hence bolstering International support (note chinas role and change of posture.)(not much but it helped..)
It wouldn't surprise me if NK did actually do something considering our weakend global presence due to the quagmire that we call Iraq.... (failing retention etc.. unstable mess etc...)
You think Iraq is bad try going against a hardened NK 1 million man army sporting no less than 10000 artillery peices and possible nuclear capability and the missle technology to deliver such a weapon to Japan or any target in the ROK......
Lets talk about terrain that is fortified with bunker and trench systems from seoul to the dmz and beyond.. This isnt flat iraq which enpowers our airpower / tanks.. This is rough terrain.. and infantry will rule that battlefield...(making it a bloody war..)
IMO we got no business fighting on the Korean peninsula... Unless you want the bloodiest conflict since WW1, be my guest...
On top of that.. IF NK decides to get ignorant and tosses a taipo-dong with some chem weapons or nukes at japan what will be japans response to that..
I dont want to know but guarenteed it wouldn't be good for the region no matter what the Japanese do.. (peace or war..)
Either way a attack would destabilze japan's economy hence most likely directly affect ours by the huge loans we get from the asian banking system....
hence imo we should lay off and smooth this out... diplo style..... Using China if they would help us as a go between...
DoctorYo
-
DoctorYo, remember who said "Evil Empire" back in the 80's? And what wall came down? ;)
-
Well considering if your suggesting that the people from DPRK would revolt and take down DMZ.. i got to laugh.. These are not western minds and culture.. they are information droughted starving people who's existence is dependent on the current regime..... Not to mention their merry trip to the DMZ most likely would land them in a mine field and turn them into catfood..... but I give you credit for wishful thinking... They said the same thing when i was over there when his dad died and they thought the son was incompetent and the regime would crumble and that was over 10 years ago.. So IMO keep dreaming.. history shows Dear leader as quite competent and succesful when you figure they have possble nukes, missle tech, bio weapons, and the gaw to hang the above in our faces...
you must understand the deep hatred the koreans (both south and north) have for japanese because of the occupation of the peninsula during WW2... This hatred runs deep.... I could easily see Dear leader lob a conventional weapon or unconventional weapon at japan for kicks alone..
Im just saying that IMO we should be very careful on who we pick our fights with until we have time to rebuild our low morale/thin military back to late 80's / early 90's standards.. To pursue battle in our current state of readiness is reckless and could easily push our armed forces over the edge...
DoctorYo
-
I agree w/ Dr YO a war with NK would be a tough one indeed.
And to be honest we just dont hve the man power for a large two front war.
-
Someone close the door... I feel a DRAFT
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
DoctorYo, remember who said "Evil Empire" back in the 80's? And what wall came down? ;)
I dont know what our former Chancelor Helmut Kohl have to do
with the NK problem today? ;)
-
Fool Us Once…The North Koreans get ready to shake us down again. (http://www.npec-web.org/projects/shakeus2.htm)
As generous as the deal was, Pyongyang went to work to dishonor it as soon as the ink was dry. In fact, within 24 months of its signing in October of 1994, U.S. intelligence judged that North Korea had already built two nuclear weapons. This meant that contrary to the deal's terms, which required North Korea to "consistently take steps to implement" its 1992 pledge not to possess nuclear weapons, the intelligence community believed that Pyongyang was secretly hoarding them. Clinton administration officials knew this. They decided, however, to dispute the intelligence finding and instead had Madeleine Albright announce that the deal had "eliminated" the Korean nuclear threat.
EEeevillll BOOSH!
-
Originally posted by Toad
Fool Us Once…The North Koreans get ready to shake us down again. (http://www.npec-web.org/projects/shakeus2.htm)
EEeevillll BOOSH!
yep, can't wait until we make a deal with Iran only later to find out they did it anyway .....
-
Problems between NK and Japan have very little to do with Bush's "Axis of Evil" statements about NK. NK and Japan have hated each other for a very long time. You could lay most of the blame for the start of it on Japan's doorstep for they way they treated the Koreans during WWII. But the Japan of today is not the Japan of my grandfather's day. They have been completely pacifist since WWII, except for some stirrings in the latest generation. Some are suggesting modifying the Japanese constitution to allow them to defend themselves outside their homeland, something that horrifies the older Japanese still in control. But then they are also quite worried about the threat posed by NK, and the hatred they have for the Japanese people in general. Fear can be a big motivator. A standing army and the ability to properly defend themselves, even outside their borders is a big first step for Japan also if they want a seat on the UN Security Council. Which they do. What I find most ironic about the situation, is the quote made so famous in the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora!" about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, where the Japanese admiral says "I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant." That is exactly what NK may accomplish if they push Japan into militarizing again. Dont think China wouldnt have words to say about that too.
-
First and importantly, using text for the link that says:
"2/3 of Japanese Citizenry wants war with N Korea"
is inaccurate and inflammatory nonsense. It is straight from the Baghdad Bob School of Accurate Information.
The abduction issue is an emotionally charged issue here in Japan, but the statement by the the DPRK about a 'physical response' was made after the polls. Japan has halted about 150 tons of food aid until the DPRK offers up credible answers about the fate of all the abductees.
Japan is constitutionally prohibited from having a standing military, but they have the 4th largest military budget in the world to maintain a "self-defense" force.
The DPRK has always used the fear that they are 'crazy enough to do anything' as their main negotiating strategy. They certainly have plenty of maniacal military leaders and soldiers who know nothing outside what they have been led to believe. But, all governments manipulate thought and belief in different ways. The DPRK is just the least subtle in technique.
Is a war imminent? Not now, unless someone stirs the pot in the hope of starting one.
-
I saw a really good documentary on NK. They interviewed a couple people and even a few soldiers and I was shocked at the load of crap that these people actually beleive. Basically it was a bunch of west-hate speech and the reasons that the NKs are starving is because of the west and it was the US that invaded NK not the other way around.
It's amazing what you can do to a culture when you isolate them enough.
-
Originally posted by wombatt
I agree w/ Dr YO a war with NK would be a tough one indeed.
And to be honest we just dont hve the man power for a large two front war.
Don't we have some shiney nuclear toys that could help reduce the effort? :D I'm all for an Alexander Haig approach of nuking em til they glow and shoot em in the dark ;)
-
Originally posted by Rolex
First and importantly, using text for the link that says:
"2/3 of Japanese Citizenry wants war with N Korea"
is inaccurate and inflammatory nonsense. It is straight from the Baghdad Bob School of Accurate Information.
Inflammatory nonsense? How can you possibly say that?
Opinion polls show about two-thirds of the Japanese public supporting economic sanctions.
North Korea has warned Japan that any sanctions against the communist state would be regarded as a declaration of war.
Therefore, 2/3 of Japanese support a policy that NK regards as a declaration of war.
A lot more foundation than Bagdhad Bob ever had. Since when is a little spin inflammatory nonsense? I suppose you think that there is a link to the Scott Peterson verdict as well?
-
Maybe Im the warmonger...but for once, let's see NK put up or shut up. And when the put up, wipe them off the map once and for all.
-
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
NK and Japan have hated each other for a very long time.
Yep
You could lay most of the blame for the start of it on Japan's doorstep for they way they treated the Koreans during WWII.
Yep
But then they are also quite worried about the threat posed by NK, and the hatred they have for the Japanese people in general. Fear can be a big motivator.
I believe, in not so many words, Japan has said to the US "do something about them, or we will"
Dont think China wouldnt have words to say about that too.
As with NK, there is a history there, too.
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
I believe, in not so many words, Japan has said to the US "do something about them, or we will"
And that is exactly what we dont need. We dont have bases there just for show, and if NK does lob a dirty bomb or two towards Japan, we are the ones that will have to respond, because we are the ones responsible for their defense. Even worse, if NK pushes hard enough for Japan to militarize again, it could destabilize the entire region as countries from Russia to the Phillipines respond to a Japan that can reach out and touch someone again. You want to see a nightmare? Just let the stock markets crash over there, and see what happens to ours. To the WORLD. Sure, start a war with Korea. And watch the world economy go right down the toilet.
As much respect as I have for Japanese culture as a whole, they definitely have some politicians that learned from the American school, and are just stupid enough to push for something like that amendment to their constitution. God help us all if it happens.
-
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
And that is exactly what we dont need. We dont have bases there just for show, and if NK does lob a dirty bomb or two towards Japan, we are the ones that will have to respond, because we are the ones responsible for their defense. Even worse, if NK pushes hard enough for Japan to militarize again, it could destabilize the entire region as countries from Russia to the Phillipines respond to a Japan that can reach out and touch someone again. You want to see a nightmare? Just let the stock markets crash over there, and see what happens to ours. To the WORLD. Sure, start a war with Korea. And watch the world economy go right down the toilet.
As much respect as I have for Japanese culture as a whole, they definitely have some politicians that learned from the American school, and are just stupid enough to push for something like that amendment to their constitution. God help us all if it happens.
This is why NK does what it does. I don't think they would ever start any conflict, especially with a dirty weapon, you give the west a reason to to fight fire with fire, and NK would not last very long. They make threats to generate fear and the reaction we are getting here. They know what conflict would bring to the region and know that everything will be done to prevent it. They have nothing to lose, and everyone around them has everything to lose. I see it as blackmail, i'm not sure what it is they want, but i'm sure it starts with money.
-
Ahh.. I get it. GWB steps on NK's toes = good.
Japan does it = bad.
Why? Because Japan = bad/evil/let's bomb them again!
Sorry for being cryptic, but I'm trying to use the vocabulary span some of you will manage to understand.
Jeeebus....
-
Don't we have some shiney nuclear toys that could help reduce the effort? I'm all for an Alexander Haig approach of nuking em til they glow and shoot em in the dark
And what happens when we dont guess the wind currents that day and radioactive mess floods into eastern china, (or japan, Russia/siberia) what type of respnse do you think china will do when 1000000 of their citizens get radiological poisining..
Thats a clear act of war against China.. As long as you goto the front lines and make it all better im all for it Rambo... (that big mushroom cloud thing you see what the hell do you think that is.. its not good for your health...)
As far as NK reniged on their treaties; all nations do that.. the key here NK made a offer to us.. (they knew we caught them and tried to come clean..) And we shunned them (as we should)but the axis speech gave them justification for weaponising their stock..) (you think china wants a nuclear armed NK next to them, Id say no.. but by us justifiying clear and present danger to them they had bargaining chips... Same thing with Iran right now ... its clear they are weaponising their stock too.... but again they can say look at our neighbor Iraq thats not happing here if we are nuclear armed... (trump card epecially with our all time low of international credibility) Look at the US's posture towards india and pakistan after their nuclear programs got going.. Hence these other nations want the one thing that will deter the superior USA/coalition conventional force.. nuclear arms.. Its could be avoided if we respect these people in the first place.. Im not saying kiss their arse but basic diplomatic respect should be paramount and maintained with all countries even if we despise them.. It gives us more options tactically if things get hairy
Heres a good one for you in the good ole USA.. if you want to talk about treaties.....
http://www.indiantrust.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Overview.Home
or on the international level, the big one...
http://www.genevaconventions.org/
Abu jail... violation... Bridge jump murders violation, head shot wounded man... violation, and whatever other atrocities have been commited by our forces.. My guess once we pull out of iraq in the next ten years IMO war crimes will be brought... If they indict pinochet after all this time what makes you think the world cant indict Rumsfield or others for this... Then whats going to happen when we drop out of Geneva conventions to protect them.. heh geneva conventions are more for the treatment of our soldiers than the opposing force.. think about it...
DoctorYo
PS you talk treaties you should read your history fellas.. treaties only work if all parties follow them... otherwise they are not worth the paper they are written on...
-
Originally posted by Ping
Someone close the door... I feel a DRAFT
The election is over, no need to return to that fear tactic, the next election isn't for 4 more years here.
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
.. the key here NK made a offer to us..
Unfortunately, their offers are proven worthless.
-
Is this story 50 years old or was it just a really slow news day ?
-
Unfortunately, their offers are proven worthless.
You 13th Tas are the masters of disinfo.. your leader Voss has trained you well.. (now watch the dogpack tactics after this comment 3 to 1 half of the 13tas shows up to machine gun this thread with white noise..)
heres the fullstatement for the people too lazy to view your feeble attempt at context attack...
the key here NK made a offer to us.. (they knew we caught them and tried to come clean..)
thats what i said.. read for yourself.... why are you pointing out something out of context what i explained in the very next sentenence.. weak case batman; youve been owned yet again..
using your philosophy im shure the world greatly values our credibility with the geneva conventions and ABM treaty..... or how bout preumptive war for WMD's then Saddam then Democracy.. whats next rocky and bullwinkle..... I could research more like the use of napalm and landmines but we dont need to go there.. I dont have enough time to baffoon you at the moment, I'll sledgehammer you as I always do as time permits....
DoctorYo
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
Abu jail... violation... Bridge jump murders violation, head shot wounded man... violation, and whatever other atrocities have been commited by our forces.. My guess once we pull out of iraq in the next ten years IMO war crimes will be brought... If they indict pinochet after all this time what makes you think the world cant indict Rumsfield or others for this... Then whats going to happen when we drop out of Geneva conventions to protect them.. heh geneva conventions are more for the treatment of our soldiers than the opposing force.. think about it...p
Be nice if they worked. Lets face it, enforcement of Geneva conventions has always been slack universally. Otherwise we'd see people from China, the former Soviet Union, the current Russia, North Korea, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Chile (oh wait, got 1!), the Philippines, Iran, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Sudan, the Congo, South Africa, Kenya, Uganda (massacres are quite popular in Africa), Cuba, Columbia...
I think it's kinda funny though that they can indict Pinochet, but Kissinger is running around trying to boost up his book sales.
I'd be interested to know how many people have ever been brought up on trial for war crimes, post-WW2, all over the world.
-
The bottom line, spin it as you will, is that the NK's deliberately took Clinton. They took him like a rube at the carney shell game gets taken.
Now, you want to keep dealing with these guys cause they say THIS time they'll play straight. Go ahead.
See, if we CATCH them cheating at the shell game, then they'll come clean about it and promise not to do it any more.
they tried to come clean
Right.
THAT'S classic. So, if we catch them, they'll try to make it right. The carneys have a name for guys that just keep coming back for more like you seem to want to do.
-
Now you're on the trolley Toad.
-SW
I had too
-
I never said Clinton didn't get taken..(actually it was albrights fat arse) you make the assumption that im some clinton lover..
Using that philosophy IMO GW got taken by Dr. Ahmed Chalabi on WMD's for his Shiite iranian agenda (who's Irans greatest enemy is last 100 years.. Uh Beavis.... Iraq.. Saddam) Open your eyes..
Being in the army during the Clinton budget cuts was tough... ( I watched training, unit size and equipment go into the gutter..) It got worse as time went on.. By the end they were prioritizing trash over combat power at the NTC... the smart people didn't stay and we were left with substandard leadership near the end of my tour.. So dont patronize me as some clinton slobbermonkey.... His name is slick willie to me..
Clinton did well in some areas and not so well in others..
And the spin comment sounds like your trying the "best defense is a good offense" tactic but i give you a B+ for effort..
DoctorYo
-
No, what I see is you saying we should keep dealing with (and giving huge amounts of aid to) people that have clearly shown themselves to be untrustworthy.
Doesn't make much sense to me. Probably doesn't make much sense to a whole lot of folks.
Throwing Chalabi up as a red herring doesn't help your basic premise, either. Chalabi doesn't equate to Kim at all, nor do Chalabi's intentions equate to Kim's nuclear ambitions.
I'll leave the patronizing to you; you clearly have a talent for it.
-
As far as NK reniged on their treaties; all nations do that.. the key here NK made a offer to us.. (they knew we caught them and tried to come clean..) And we shunned them (as we should)but the axis speech gave them justification for weaponising their stock..)
What part of shunned and (as we should) constitutes your comment:
No, what I see is you saying we should keep dealing with (and giving huge amounts of aid to) people that have clearly shown themselves to be untrustworthy.
Shunned from Dictionary.com = To avoid deliberately; keep away from.
Caught red herring (whoops handed) in your lies, context, and feeble attack again or in your words "spin" I see..
And note the post taken from was not edited for the slueths out there..
Note my argument is not; is NK trustworthy?? We all know they are not.. My argument is the axis of evil speech served as a catayst that got us into a big mess giving direct and on the record justification of self defense thru nuclear deterent.. with the Iraq campaign bolstering their case....
Toad when are you going to learn butting heads with me is like a mathmatical function..
Like a right triangle having 90 degrees; it is also a "given" that Toad vs DoctorYo = DoctorYo proves Toad wrong..
Now write that on the chalk board a 100 times for your homework assignment..
:lol :lol
:p
DoctorYo
PS: Your the Diet coke of Evil.. just one calorie not evil enough..... Neeener neeener.......
-
YAWN
-
And so it begins...
Bodhi 13th TAS cohort says...
YAWN
and my soothsaying earlier...
(now watch the dogpack tactics after this comment 3 to 1 half of the 13tas shows up to machine gun this thread with white noise..)
sorry I was wrong by 7 posts but I knew I could count on 13th TAS..
at least you farceurs are consistant... Ill give you that..
DoctorYo
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
And so it begins...
Bodhi 13th TAS cohort says...
and my soothsaying earlier...
sorry I was wrong by 7 posts but I knew I could count on 13th TAS..
at least you farceurs are consistant... Ill give you that..
DoctorYo
You really do have issues...
go back to burying thy head in the sand.
-
I am still wondering how Voss got put into the argument. This was an intertaining thread untill then..... Guess it could not be a discussion on merits, or issues.... Is the Voss card a wild card to throw when you dont like the way the argument was turning...
-
Ah now i have issues.. can you be more specific.. issues, all of mankind has issues please elaborate.. and look up farceurs when you get a chance...
:D
So if i prove toad (your cohort) wrong (yet again i might add) and catch his feeble word in my mouth lies and banter and then rub his own crapola back in his face and predict cohorts attempt to whitnoise this thread as some form of defence; then i have issues..??
Oh and lets not forget attempted censorship when the folly doesn't go your way with this comment..
go back to burying thy head in the sand.
You fellas are free entertainment..
DoctorYo
PS: I was going to give you a Darth Vader "Impressive" But thats been downgraded to "All too easy"
:rofl
Trell the Voss card as you say is synonymous with farceur hence being a insult (not really becuase he was their CO in AW) by me naming him as their commander.. my favorite Synonym of which at Dictionary.com being "top banana".. hope that clarifies....
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
As far as NK reniged on their treaties; all nations do that.. the key here NK made a offer to us.. (they knew we caught them and tried to come clean..) And we shunned them (as we should)but the axis speech gave them justification for weaponising their stock..)
Sure most countries have reneged on a treaty before. When they think they can get away with it, or if circumstances change after the signing of the treaty and it's no longer in their best interest to support it. The only thing that really supports a treaty, in the end, is respect for what the other guy will do to you if you dont hold up your end. NK has basically flipped us the bird, and knows we cant do much about it without causing irreparable harm to that corner of the world. They never tried to come clean, they admitted what they wanted to admit, in the time frame which they chose to work to their advantage. The entire affair was INTENDED to come out, so they could use their unique position to blackmail the world. Nothing we did or said gives them a justification for developing nuclear weapons. Because if anyone in this day and age would use them, its NK.
(you think china wants a nuclear armed NK next to them, Id say no.. but by us justifiying clear and present danger to them they had bargaining chips... Same thing with Iran right now ... its clear they are weaponising their stock too.... but again they can say look at our neighbor Iraq thats not happing here if we are nuclear armed... (trump card epecially with our all time low of international credibility) Look at the US's posture towards india and pakistan after their nuclear programs got going.. Hence these other nations want the one thing that will deter the superior USA/coalition conventional force.. nuclear arms..
China doesnt fear a nuclar NK so much, although I'm sure they would be much happier if nukes didnt spread too much. Its still a huge measure of power to have a nuclear arsenal, even if you dont plan to use it. China has always had pretty good relations with NK though, one of the few govornments that can talk to them and get them to listen. It doesnt bear much beyond a passing resemblance to the tense situation with Iran though. With NK, the main target is Japan, a mostly disarmed and pacifist country that would need a huge boost to overcome their legal and moral blocks to starting a war. Also, NK fully realizes the delicate nature of the balance of power in the East, and are just playing a game to get something they want. Iran OTOH, denys any involvement with nukes at all, and could very well start a war if Israel is pushed too far and attacks them. Unlike the Far East, the Middle East is already destablized and while a war with Israel would send the whole region up in flames, the world economy wouldnt suffer so much because there is no real input and/or output other than oil. And its not going anywhere. Access might be tough for awhile, but there are other sources until it cools down.
Its could be avoided if we respect these people in the first place.. Im not saying kiss their arse but basic diplomatic respect should be paramount and maintained with all countries even if we despise them.. It gives us more options tactically if things get hairy
I agree with you on this one hundred percent. To a point. No matter what anyone feels about our president personally, or about his decisions, I think most people would agree that (at least until proven otherwise), everyone is deserving of respect, and that alienating most of our supporters was not the best of moves. Granted, there can be an argument made that if they didnt want to support us when things got tough, they werent much of a support to start with, but everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, I think we are beyond the point where we have to strain to keep diplomatic relations with a country that is against everything we belive in and strive to protect. Many of the European countries tried that with Hitler, and they paid the price. I hope no one ever pays such a price again for trying to promote peace. A sad fact, but I think the best route for our foreign policy can be summed up by the famous quote from Teddy Roosevelt "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." Or maybe Patton's "Lead me, follow me, or get the hell outta my way."
Abu jail... violation... Bridge jump murders violation, head shot wounded man... violation, and whatever other atrocities have been commited by our forces.. My guess once we pull out of iraq in the next ten years IMO war crimes will be brought... If they indict pinochet after all this time what makes you think the world cant indict Rumsfield or others for this... Then whats going to happen when we drop out of Geneva conventions to protect them.. heh geneva conventions are more for the treatment of our soldiers than the opposing force.. think about it...
Soldiers get carried away sometimes. Thats why we need quality men and women as officers, who are trained to deal with the emotions that can take away a soldier's judgment skills at a time when they are needed most. Unfortunately, even the officers fail sometimes. They are only human. Person for person, I'd stand our military up next to any other in the world and shine the light of truth on them, and I'm betting I'd find far less to be embarrassed about than most others can claim. Yes bad things happen. We try to minimize them, try to make up for them when they happen, but in the end we must go on because if we give up before the end result is reached, then every thing that happend, every life that was lost is all in vain. I personally dont like whats happening in Iraq, but I dont have any answers better than the ones being offered, so I'll not gripe just for the sake of griping.
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
[B
Trell the Voss card as you say is synonymous with farceur hence being a insult (not really becuase he was their CO in AW) by me naming him as their commander.. my favorite Synonym of which at Dictionary.com being "top banana".. hope that clarifies.... [/B]
Yes and I Believe that it is "Was" I wonder how many of them have even flown with Voss or even ever talked to him. that is like comparing every one in Germany to Hitler because he "was" there commander Years ago.
I am Just adding my 2 cents (about 1.67 cents Euro lol)
-
I am not sure If I would consider Japan defenseless, If I remember correctly, they have a very good defense force. both in size and strength.. They just have never used it. It has to be considered a defense force and not an army for political reasons . I don't think Japan thinks of our bases there as much of protection, more as in a show of alliance, and for economical reasons.
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
(actually it was albrights fat arse)
OK DoctorYo,
Now you hit below the belt. Maddy was one hot babe!
:aok
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
My argument is the axis of evil speech served as a catayst that got us into a big mess giving direct and on the record justification of self defense thru nuclear deterent.. with the Iraq campaign bolstering their case....
So?
They already HAD nukes, they had tossed the inspectors, they had round-filed the agreements.
So BUSH put us in a "big mess"?
Nah, I think maybe Kim's building nukes made a "big mess". You can either pretend it didn't happen and keep dealing with him or you can take Bush's approach; call it for what it is.
I like calling it for what it is, myself.
I do enjoy reading your diatribes, however, especially your continual declarations of egotistical victory. You can't simply debate; you have to make it some personal triumph, imagined though it may be.
-
Dont mean to go off topic but Trell:
that is like comparing every one in Germany to Hitler because he "was" there commander Years ago.
to give you an answer please ask any 9 out of 10 Belgians your question and tell me what response you get... thats my answer..
Also note Toad is always shoving lies and banter into peoples mouth even though there is text like 3 posts above to the contrary hoping that what he might consider the simian imparied may not notice or rebuttal. Now in terms of Voss he too also had such a arrogance in leeching and schemes.. So I find it Ironic that they both share the same squad name and pointed fun at it thats all...
This is not a voss thread nor a 13th tas thread for that do a search for the mother of all voss threads with some 2000+ posts.. I think the name was the Voss Conspiracy.....
But if certain people put lies and words into what was clearly written I will rebuttal such foolishness with extreme prejuduce as anyone else should when encountering slander and hearsay...
DoctorYo
-
Last Of topic post on this subject for me as well my friend.
I don't agree or disagree with either you or toad on the actually subject. All I was calling you on was that pulling The Voss card, seems to me as a way to blow off an argument that you may have been losing( when you post something like that it looks like a call for help because you are getting your bellybutton kicked in an argument... and painting a squad who does not have any ties will Voss will a mile wide Brush. There was no other call that I can see for even bringing it up, Yes I know about the 2000+ thread on the topic, but it looks like to be that you were trying to hide behind that. If I remember correctly the last time he surfaced he was not even off this squad.
you can brush off my comparison as extreme all you want but even a blind man or even 9 out of 10 Belgians (no I could not find any to ask) can see the same stupid connection.
-
I would think that Nk would be under china's sphere of influence. with as close as they are I would hope that if china really does not want nk acting up that they would pull then to heal..
-
DoctorYo,
you do have issues, especially when you set up a patsy excuse for losing any discussion before it starts. Are you afraid of discourse? I think so, especially when you set up a pansie arse excuse like you did.
Remember, I said nothing in support or against your argument other than YAWN. Which supports my stance on the issue...
The NK's will sabre rattle like they always do, we and the world will do something to appease the little tyrants, and the world will continue on it's same old path.
Keep in mind, the NK economy is a shambles. They can afford no offensive action other than overt nuclear or WMD type strikes. That will only ensure their destruction.... so, as always, they will bark like a junk yard dog, but in the end, it is only a bark.
As for blame about this whole thing, how about you blame Truman for not allowing Macarthur to end this nonsense in the early '50's....
Sheesh, so many people are always about the blame, NEVER on a solution.
-
I think so, especially when you set up a pansie arse excuse like you did.
If the pansey excuse was calling your whitenoise tactics such as yawn... then A whine has been recorded.. if not kindly post in quote from the pansey excuse... excuse to what.. elaborate.. what was said above was foreshadowing / preeumptive shutdown (i'd be upset too if someone knew my SOP) not excuse.. get it right..
Trell review post #40 where i clearly indentified toad as putting words in my mouth and out of context and later proving such as incorrect.. the connection to voss was not a out but deductive reasoning on the irony of their past commaders lies and farce compared with their current members lies and farce.. reiterated on the first post on page 2 and post #40 nothing more needs to be said unless you want to rebuttal... and youll lose with your assumptions/attempted profiling right next to it... So IMO your comments are not a problem since your voice is rare and appreciated; the sledgehammer hasn't comeout on you for common courtesy purposes but that can change if you like.. your profiling was dead wrong that post #40 is clear as a bell..... if anything that was a routing blow to toads credibility (at least on this thread) not me maybe losing my debate......
Now my posture with toad is long handed as it should be.. Time and time again I post.. He cuts and pastes his context (in this particular thread the exact sentence after his context explains something which was gone over if he took the time to read the whole post) I rebuttal him and clearly with proof show him his error..
Having gone thru this gauntlet before im wise to the way of the 13th tas pitbulling when someone gives one of their members static / or says something they may find unpopular.... and hence predicted Bodhi's feeble response which as noted above he didn't like my deductive reasoning on their feeble tactics..
Note for someone who doesn't care read Bodhi's last one.. heh... did i call it on the nose or what.. But then again as I said before they are predictable...
DoctorYo
-
Rip Rip Rip.
How do you figure thats a fear tactic? The military is stretched very thin. If any more major problems arise I just don't see how the US would be able to act without it.
Has nothing to do with the election.
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
So IMO your comments are not a problem since your voice is rare and appreciated; the sledgehammer hasn't comeout on you for common courtesy purposes but that can change if you like..
DoctorYo
:)
-
Yes But Iraq was a War they were hoping to be able to Win quickly and then just Stick the feather in there hat, I dont think any one was expecting for it to be as drawn out as it has become. If we started a pissing contect with NK I dont think they would have backed down, And They are a few rungs higher then Iraq in strength even with out nukes.
It ended up just being able to show off, Beating up the weaker target.. The same reason We did not start with Iran Either.
-
Originally posted by Toad
:)
LOL Trying to stay on topic now:rofl
-
I want to just reiterate that Japan and DPRK are not on the brink of war as the topic title trolls.
A few clarifications on some of the previous posts:
-- The U.S. doesn't provide any aid to the DPRK. Japan has provided all the food and fuel aid agreed to in the multi-lateral talks since Japan is much 'closer' to the issue - as in the bullseye.
-- Japan had been attempting to move toward normalizing a relationship with the DPRK in the hope that diplomatic relations will continue dialogue and break the isolation. Slowly breaking the isolation is considered more viable since enhanced economic conditions through trade do more to thaw frosty relations than politicians posturing and pandering to their domestic constituency.
-- The hard line 'axis of evil' statement did nothing but provide an excuse for the DPRK hardliners to move forward with weaponizing their uranium stock. Look, when the world's most militarily powerful nation equates a nation to a nation subsequently invaded (pre-emptively to disarm WMD that did not exist), how can they not feel threatened or next on the list? Particularly when the stated reasons for a pre-emptive strike have proved to be groundless, yet conveniently forgotten or changed.
I'm not making excuses for the DPRK, but you have to look at an opponent's mindset before you can understand potential paths to mutual existance.
-- Just to clarify, the U.S. military presence in Japan is not an economic benefit for Japan. The U.S. cannot afford to have a Pacific presence and the Japan bases are more for U.S. strategic purposes than the defense of Japan. The prevailing opinion is that the U.S. is only interested in protecting its bases, not living up to any security agreements with Japan.
The presence is a cost, not an economic plus to Japan since Japanese taxpayers bear the costs of all the bases including construction, cost of living subsidies, fuel subsidies, off-base housing subsidies etc., and the personnel don't significantly contribute to the local economies - they buy everything on the bases through the military PX, BX system.
-- Japan has about 400 attack aircraft, 300 fighter aircraft, 18 submarines, at least 60 destroyers, 900 armoured vehicles, 900 artillery pieces, substantial ground to air missile systems, plus all the support units for these.
-- And now for the big question... are you ready?
Are you sure Japan has no nuclear capability just because it says so? Having car parts lying in close formation does not make it a car until it is assembled. You ask any Japanese on the street if Japan has nuclear weapons and the most frequent answer is: "I hope so."
How would you explain that Japan has the world's largest unaccounted-for plutonium stockpile? Japan is a very capable satellite launching nation. There are many unspoken arrangements and conditions between Japan and the U.S. I don't have a definitive answer, but the longer I am here, the more I lean toward an opinion.
-
What's the Japanese "order of battle" if they go to war against N Koreans? I heard that NKs have EVERYTHING from MiGs/SUs, big 'uns, submarine force, and 2 million "robotic" soldiers:D
-
Probably wait for the U.S. to fry them after Seoul is destroyed. Then build auto, truck, tire, camera and electronic parts factories on the cheap land.... :eek:
-
Nk has dirrty tricks!
NK can ngage in "total war". They'll use "soviet style" tactics with a "twist". They even train hackers! lol
http://www.rense.com/general37/nkorr.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/dprk/2001/korea.pdf
take time to read these :)
-
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/16/northkorea.china.asylum/index.html
Happens all the time.... What's up the the "Dear Leaders" peeps?
:D
-
Originally posted by Rolex
-- The U.S. doesn't provide any aid to the DPRK.
Are you sure?
U.S. Assistance to North Korea, Report for Congress (http://www.nautilus.org/DPRKBriefingBook/uspolicy/CRSUSAidtoDPRK.pdf)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/116_1103306326_usnk.jpg)
-
I feel we are long overdue for a world war. Let NK start it... they'd be doing the world a favor.*
* I don't think they ever will, they are all bluster.