Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Zigrat on August 03, 2001, 08:01:00 PM
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heres a nice film showing how to deny the shot. and how to fly the 109 g10 expertly. unfortunately the 109 is a hard plane to get a kill in if the target is aware. which is why the german planes are hurt by icons.
but i digress, check out the film if you would like to see some good 109 flying.
http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/dogftr.ahf (http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/dogftr.ahf)
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cool.
so what did u do there?
from what i saw, he always had the e advantage on u, so when he zoom down u turn and he shoots past just as u are turning back onto him, so u have like 2 sec to get a shot off.
is that it?
rav
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Basically what is happening in this film, is that the 109 is being careful. He starts the fight with an altitude/Energy advantage, and he works to keep that advantage thoughout the fight.
However, the 109 pilot makes one mistake repeatedly thought the fight. Although he maintains his superior energy state, he makes attacks at a steep angle and repeatedly overshoots below Zigrat's flight path. This is not a good thing to do. As you can see if you watch the film, this gives Zigrat multiple opportunities to get snapshots as the bandit crosses his gun sights.
Ideally, the attacker wants to make much shallower attack runs, preferably from slightly below the bandit so when the overshoot occurs, you can already be zooming back up before the enemy can get guns on you. Now Zigrat here is doing everything he can here to force that overshoot, but a careful pilot would avoid such a steep attack run, and instead of overshooting would break off the attack and reposition.
The part the 109 pilot does right here is to zoom back up to altitude and gain separation before re-initiating an attack. He is never suckered into turning with the slower bogey, a fight he would lose. He uses the 109's superior speed and climb to maintain a generous energy advantage that he can use to keep Zigrat from having a good solid shot at him. :)
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I know I am such a dweeb :p.
Funny thing was almost right from the merge,
I knew this F6F pilot was Sierra Hotel.
With my pathetic gunnery and only 60 30m rounds, the best I could hope for was a quick snap shot.
An uninterrupted meeting with great sticks like Zigrat,Fester and all.. makes me really appreciate their skill ,and each time is a fantastic learning experience.
Thanks for the critique Leph, I will review the film and hopefully be able to institute your recommendations into my flying<S>
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Yep, good fight guys :) I have to second Lephturns comments. While I would not have quite put it so eloquently, I did notice that the 109 did routinely give the F6F slivers of opportunity to take off parts as it dove down. It did not dawn on me that the cause was too steep an attack, but there certainly was it.
Thanks for the comments Lephturn, and good fight guys!
Nim
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BTW, it isn't as simple as "too steep an attack". While that is the result, the tricky part is that the other guy is going to maneuver to try and force you to into a steep attack to get a shot. It's tough.
The trick is that it's better not to take the shot if it looks like you will overshoot below the bandit. If you see the attack is getting too steep, better to pull off earlier and conserve as much E as you can, while the other guy blows his turning into your attack run.
Overall though, if you can, try to get some separation, reverse, and execute an attack from slightly below the bogey so that you overshoot going upwards. You can then simply zoom away to safety instead of exposing yourself to a snapshot as you climb. As an added bonus, if the enemy attempts to follow you for a shot, you are going up with more E, and you have him in a classic rope-a-dope.
This is all easier said than done BTW. :D I often know what I did wrong.... as I'm floating to the earth in my chute. But heck, if it was easy, I wouldn't still be here learning this stuff years later. :)
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Another factor to consider here is the 109's roll rate. I was watching and noticed the 109 passed close enough on a couple of passes--the first one in particular--to have inflicted a pretty serious ping with a good shot--only takes a few with the 30MM. Problem is the 109 has a terrible roll rate at best and it only becomes worse at high speed--which these passes were.
Looks to me what was happening was he just couldn't get his nose pointed at him due to the onset of compression. Once that roll rate starts to mush its damned hard to get your lift vector pointed to where you want to shoot if your target's breaking. I hate that! (But I love the 109) But that's why I don't BnZ with the 109--wrong tool for the job IMO. I prefer to E fight it instead, keeping better control of my speed. Although that's not really gonna cut it either much of the time in a 1v1 anyway unless the other guy's asleep--which Zig obviously wasn't. :)
Enjoyed the film. I wouldn't have been quite so cautious tho. ;)
Drano
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Drano ]
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I can stay on F6F's 6 in my g10, by using some lag pursuit and being careful :).
Dunno if I could stay on Zig's F6F, but I've stayed on the six of some very good pilots.
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Do you have any suggestions on how to pull off a successful dive bomb/rocket attack with a 109? When I first started flying I would lawn dart in to the ground (this made me respect the 109, and the quality of the aeronautics in the game) and now I have figured our the swoop in on a attack run and then hit the gas and out-climb them to relative safety thing. But I still have problems timing my bomb release (but at least I no longer hit the ground at high speed).
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i would not use the rockets on the 109, since they leave big tubes that add alot of drag
as for the bombs i would begin your dive from around 5000 ft if attacking a ground vehicle. go into a straight verticle dive, put the crosshairs on the vehicle. release at 1500 ft and pull out
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Lephturn,
I have not seen the film yet so my comments are based solely on previous comments here.
One advantage afforded by the steep angle of attack is you negate any kind of HO shot by the defender. Due to the apparent cautious nature of the 109 pilot, this may have been the case. Of couse, the obvious disadvantage is the low percentage shot you have which wastes ammo. It sounds like the 109 pilot was a bit too aggressive in wanting to gain back altitude and pulled some hard G's to climb back up without gaining enough separation. I would suggest that the steep angle is ok IF you continue the dive at a more shallow angle and extending, maintaining your high speed, and gently pull back up to altitude under low G's. This should give the defender little or no shot due to the high speed pass and will afford an opportunity of getting separation before the climb back up.
Just some thoughts...
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Originally posted by SpitLead:
Lephturn,
I have not seen the film yet so my comments are based solely on previous comments here.
One advantage afforded by the steep angle of attack is you negate any kind of HO shot by the defender. Due to the apparent cautious nature of the 109 pilot, this may have been the case. Of couse, the obvious disadvantage is the low percentage shot you have which wastes ammo. It sounds like the 109 pilot was a bit too aggressive in wanting to gain back altitude and pulled some hard G's to climb back up without gaining enough separation. I would suggest that the steep angle is ok IF you continue the dive at a more shallow angle and extending, maintaining your high speed, and gently pull back up to altitude under low G's. This should give the defender little or no shot due to the high speed pass and will afford an opportunity of getting separation before the climb back up.
Just some thoughts...
The 109's steep attack angle takes him way below the target who is right there to pick up the pieces with a couple of well timed snap shots on his zoom back up. It would have been interesting to see this fight thru to the end. It was a good illustration of how a BnZ attack can be thwarted seemingly forever 1v1.
When in BnZ mode I try and NEVER pass below my target's altitude, taking what shot I get and passing on his cold side (assumming he breaks) so as to deny him vis momentarily so that I can skate past and zoom back up.
Drano
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Drano, you brought up a good point. The key factor is when passing below the defender to be sure you do it on the COLD side. Based on your high speed advantage you should be long gone (even being below the defender) before he can bring his guns to bear for a snapshot. The point should be made that the attacker needs to be sure to extend to get separation before pulling back up to altitude using a low G zoom climb maneuver.
I still think if done properly, one can BnZ and go below the defender, they just need to do it the right way.
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In the attack portrayed in the film and described here there is other ways to ensure the enemy you are making a pass at doesnt get guns on you. First.. the thing you dont want to do is an immediate zoom after your diving pass. Do this and let an experienced pilot get guns on you. Its best to press on past your shot, or missed shot, for approximately 1.5-2.0K in a lateral direction before your gradual zoom. Not a pitch back on the stick to the sun type of zoom. This only burns your E off.
If you begin your diving pass on the enemy and he puts his AC into a zero G dive or such a dive to gather speed, watch out! If he has time to get close to your E state then 2 things are likely to happen. 1) you WILL overshoot, you are still faster although he has decreased the closure rate considerably. He will have a substantial amount of E and likely you will attempt a zoom or extention giving him your 6. 2) you will break off the attack seeing that he is preparing for your attack. But be carefull when you break off, if you zoom, you lose sight and he is fast and zoom right behind you.
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I'd add .. if you attack from below with more e .. gives con less chance to get out of your guns way
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Good discussion guys! :)
Good point, the steep attack may prevent a head-on type of engagement. However, your solution is valid for avoiding being shot... extending much farther before (gently) zooming back up. It's still not the optimal attack, because any time you overshoot below the bogey, he is gaining E on you. Versus a great accelerating plane like a George or an FW, you'll get killed quickly trying that for more than one pass.
The tricky bit is getting into position for a low/high attack without letting the bad guy turn his nose to you. There's a balance there between enough separation, and too much. :) Use lag pursuit and vertical moves like the high yoyo to stay in the bogey's rear quarter while you set up for the shot. Most importantly, if your attack run is getting too steep, DON'T PRESS IT! Far better to ease off before you get too close and transition it into trying to rope-a-dope your victim. :)
Hmmm, lets see if we can come up with some films of alternate attacks in this situation.
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This is along the line of ammo, but how about this. Assuming I'm the 109, and I want to keep the steep attack (which is questionable I know). How about instead of pulling off once I realize it is going to be a bit steep than I had anticipated, proceed with the attack. As I dive, I hope to be able to put guns on via a deflection or even snapshot if that opportunity presents itself. Ok, so I dive, no solution. I continue the shallow dive, past the F6, and gradually extend and climb. The only shot the F6 will have is on me hauling bellybutton in a shallow dive. In which case the F6 will have to nose down quickly for guns on, which is a *very* difficult shot. At a comfortable distance, which will vary by pilot, for me about 800/900 yards, go ahead and enter a zoom climb and re-commence the attack.
Comments?
Nim
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Ditto what AKNimitz said. We are basically saying the same thing.
On another note, I would also say that continuing the dive below the defender allows you to bring your guns to bear much longer (especially important with the .50 cals) giving you a higher percentage of a kill on the first pass. And, you get to see what damage (ping hit sprites), if any, you've caused. If you attack and never go below the defender this requires you to pull up much earlier from farther away (d500-d800?)so you won't see whether the last burst caused pings or not and your shot window will be smaller.
Gee, I'm even beginning to convince myself on this one :D
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One more thing to consider on BnZ attacks is the guns your plane has and their effective range. In this case, the 109 cannons (and seemingly most Luftwaffe planes) have poor range for effective hitting power. The 109 pilot knowing this may have chosen to go below the defender because he needed to get close for any kind of effective shot. This of course would have forced him into passing below. For those airplanes with Hispano cannons which have a longer range and dare I say more hitting power (especially the CHog and Typhoon and Tempest with 4 cannons and even the Spits) I think one could get away with pulling up and not going below the con and still have an effective shot. Airplanes with .50 cals are poor airplanes to use for snapshot attacks (I've gotten more assists that way than I want to think about). Because of this, a longer shot window is needed (and you can afford to spray and pray a bit) and diving below the nme will afford the opportunity to do this.
Just something more to think about... :)
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: SpitLead ]
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If you are going to overshoot beneath your opponent, you must do what you guys suggest... extend out of range before pulling up. This will allow you an attack run and keep you from getting shot. It can be a valid tactic given the right E advantage and comparitive plane performance. The reason why you might want to avoid it if you can, is that any time you overshoot below your attacker, you give up some of your energy advantage. Now if you are in a G-10 vs. a Jug, you no the Jug can't climb for crap, so this may not be a big deal. Try it versus a good climber/accelerator though, and you won't have an energy advantage to work with for very long.
It's a valid attack, but keep your angle as shallow as you can and be very careful using it. :)