Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on December 16, 2004, 10:11:20 AM
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Congratulations to the United States of Europe. Just finishing T.R. Reid's chronicle of united European accomplishments, his 2004 book called The United States of Europe -- the New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy.
Essentially he concludes:
"... the planet has a second superpower now, and ... its global influence will continue to increase as the world moves toward a bipolar balance of economic, political, and diplomatic authority."
Excellent compilation of contemporary European achievements (e.g., the euro) that have been mounting up individually until now the subcontinent is finally beginning to function as a collective entity in many situations.
Enjoy the book from your local bookstore or library.
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No thanks, I think I'll take my morning watermelon now.
Karaya
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"... the planet has a second superpower now, and ... its global influence will continue to increase as the world moves toward a bipolar balance of economic, political, and diplomatic authority."
It's in a book, it must be true.
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Congratulations + Europe + HTC BBS.
Parse error on line 1, terminate program.
We all smell bad, have broken teeth, drink wine all day and never work... what else will you expect.
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In other news, the existance of a heavily populated, economically-significant landmass in Asia is confirmed.
Anthropologists from Oxford, when questioned as to what this landmass will be named, say they cannot be certain as of yet, but are leaning towards calling this still enigmatic region 'China'.
More news to follow.
As for Europe... Well, congrats on the Euro and all, but I think their accomplishments in the area of seamlessly incorporating Anti-Semitism into their rich and eclectic cultural identity should not be overlooked when awarding accolades.
Yeah! That's right! Take that silly book-writer man!
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Congratulations + Europe + HTC BBS.
Parse error on line 1, terminate program.
We all smell bad, have broken teeth, drink wine all day and never work... what else will you expect.
And your Beer Museums are closed on Saturdays!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
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Originally posted by Stringer
And your Beer Museums are closed on Saturdays!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
Yes! BOMB YUR0P!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Keep an eye on the Belgians, they're going to take over the world when no one is looking.
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With Luxembourg providing Tea and Sandwiches.
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Until the European Union can act as a cohesive political, economic, and military unit, it will not achieve "superpower" status as we know it.
For example, the amount of taxes collected by the American federal government far eclipses that of any single state. About 19% of this tax money then goes into military spending, another 19% on discretionary spending, and close to 50% goes into social insurance programs such as Social Security and Medicare.
I ask this in all honesty... can Europeans on this board truly envision a day where a unified EU governmental body supersedes the power of the individual countries? Will this body alone determine if the EU goes to war regardless of the wishes of its constituents? If the EU decided to send EU troops comprised of all member nations into Iraq, would EU member nations support this action despite fundamentally disagreeing with it?
There's more to being a superpower than economics alone.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I can also suggest the Book from Jeremy Ripotato peelin: "The Europen Dream".
"...The European Union’s $10.5 trillion GDP now eclipses the United States’, making it the largest economy in the world._ The EU is already the world’s leading exporter and largest internal trading market. Moreover, much of Europe enjoys a longer life span and greater literacy, and has less poverty and crime, less blight and sprawl, longer vacations, and shorter commutes to work than we do in the United States._ When one considers what makes a people great and what constitutes a better way of life, observes Ripotato peelin, Europe is beginning to surpass America."
Read more here:
The European Dream (http://www.foet.org/European%20Dream.htm)
R
Gh0stFT
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Originally posted by Neubob
As for Europe... Well, congrats on the Euro and all, but I think their accomplishments in the area of seamlessly incorporating Anti-Semitism into their rich and eclectic cultural identity should not be overlooked when awarding accolades.
oh my
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
I and shorter commutes to work than we do in the United States
Gh0stFT
Well, Duh!
I've got a lot of friends over there that think a 2 hour drive is going a long way.
From right here, that's not even half way across Kansas and only 1/5th of the way to the Colorado ski slopes.
I think the perception of distance is quite different when your country is 3000 miles across rather than 300.
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I ask this in all honesty... can Europeans on this board truly envision a day where a unified EU governmental body supersedes the power of the individual countries?
The EU already passes laws which the member governments have to abide by in every court in the judiciary. The only way to not abide by this legislature is to repeal the act of parliament that joined the UK with the EU, for instance.
Politically it won't be possible for many generations.
Neubob:
As for Europe... Well, congrats on the Euro and all, but I think their accomplishments in the area of seamlessly incorporating Anti-Semitism into their rich and eclectic cultural identity should not be overlooked when awarding accolades. [/b]
You are truly an enlightened individual. Congratulations Euro-stalker!
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Originally posted by Dowding
The EU already passes laws which the member governments have to abide by in every court in the judiciary. The only way to not abide by this legislature is to repeal the act of parliament that joined the UK with the EU, for instance.
Politically it won't be possible for many generations.
Did I ever mention that I feel the EU will be the cause of a major war in Europe?
I envision a day when the EU does have authority over the indivual states. It's not hard to figure what can happen from there.
For instance, a state wants to leave the EU and maybe the EU feels that state needs to stay.
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Originally posted by NUKE
For instance, a state wants to leave the EU and maybe the EU feels that state needs to stay.
I've wonder about that myself.....
So, when will Turkey be allowed to join?
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I believe there will be civil war in the EU in our lifetime. The Germans will be involved but not the Brits, they're too smart. and not the French, they'd just surrender anyway.
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Originally posted by Steve
I believe there will be civil war in the EU in our lifetime. The Germans will be involved but not the Brits, they're too smart. and not the French, they'd just surrender anyway.
pulls up chair, grabs beer, sits back to watch the poo fly...
:lol
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Europes long History shows nothing but political instability and the inability to Police itself.
Proof.......World War I, and World War II.
I really hope the EuroUnion works but History has shown it won't.
I'll sit by & observe for awhile until (imho) it appears to be a cohesive body of Countries.
As I said I hope it comes to fruition....I do have my doubts.
By the way.....some States in our Country are bigger then some counties in Europe. Guess we succeded. :)
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Bodhi don't you think that steve's post stink enougth for all of us ?
Hajo I don't think the compairason is really fair.
Are the USA make of 51* country having different history,different languages,different tradition,different food ... ?
* or 52 I don't know if England should be in or not :p
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The EU hands to Germany and France control of Europe through political means that which they could not (even though they tried) achieve through military means.
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Are the USA make of 51* country having different history,different languages,different tradition,different food ... ?
Indeed we are. At the time of Union in 1789 we were a very diverse nation. English, German, French, Spanish, and aboriginal dilects were spoken. Disagreements over human rights were rampant--think slavery. The economic bases of the different regions were as different as they come--agrarian v. industrial. The history of the southern portion of N. Amer. is/was very different than the history of the Northern portion. Not to mention the west, whcih was not incorporated until the 19th century. The regional cusines of America demonstrate just how different we are, in the same vain as De Gaul--How can you lead a nation with 5000 types of Bar-B-Que?
BTW, and no offense intended, USA consists of 50 states.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, Duh!
I've got a lot of friends over there that think a 2 hour drive is going a long way.
From right here, that's not even half way across Kansas and only 1/5th of the way to the Colorado ski slopes.
I think the perception of distance is quite different when your country is 3000 miles across rather than 300.
And to add to that, we have essentially built ourselves into this :) (Not considering the difference in geographical dimensions). The interstate system, gridlike and neatly squared organization of urban and suburban areas, the division of residential, industrial, and commerical zoning. In southeastern Wisconsin, the nicer suburbs are WAY out out there, nowhere near the city. Bus systems are inadequate and don't reach many areas, trains are nonexistant. You *have* to drive a half hour to work, you *have* to drive to get groceries,you *have* to drive several hours to wherever you're going, shopping malls are condenced urban commercial cities with huuuge areas of wasted space in the parking lots. I have to drive 15 minutes to the nearest Best Buy or 25 minutes to a CompUSA. It's nuts. The only thing within walking distance is my toilet and my driveway... to my car.
Granted some cities in the US are not like this. Madison is a good example - college town, small business and residential zones are within walking distance. Many use bikes, things are within walking distance, few shopping malls. They even have zones banning automobiles. I hear New Orleans is similar. Munich is beautiful - most things in walking distance, open markets, pedestrian zones only, etc. Innsbruck was similar, and Frankfurt is the most American looking city - mostly due to heavy bombing in WWII.
For the most part, on the average, I say the USA's mass transit is complete ass. Barely any trains, bus systems are often incomplete and/or slow (Milwaukee sucks). The number of cars and trucks is greater than the entire population of the US !! Traffic jams are huge.
We've built ourselves into this and it's making transit very inefficient.
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Superpowers, who gives a chit, in the long run masses will discover that we only have ONE, and we got to share...
and Jeezy, Straffo was buggin the Limey's by saying they were the 52nd state...
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Last time I checked, super powers aren't about to be torn apart from their bickering members.
Calling the European Union as it stands right now a super power is like thinking that the UN actually is important.
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Originally posted by soda72
I've wonder about that myself.....
So, when will Turkey be allowed to join?
not sooner that in 10 years...
however i think that Iran is more interesting partner for EU.... pitty that it isnt in Europe :D
I dont think that global politic and economic will be bipolar. World were bipolar during cold war, but not today. We have much more huge and economicaly strong countries, like China, Russia. Once countries in middle east will have peace and time to check world trends, i guess, that they will attempt to make some sort of union as well.
IMO Eu will not grow that fast anymore and if so, i guess it will grow toward north.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Europes long History shows nothing but political instability and the inability to Police itself.
Proof.......World War I, and World War II.
I really hope the EuroUnion works but History has shown it won't.
ummm... what do you mean by " History has shown it wont`t" ?
Whitch history event related to Eu do you have on your mind ?
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Originally posted by straffo
Hajo I don't think the compairason is really fair.
Are the USA make of 51* country having different history,different languages,different tradition,different food ... ?
IMO food is the biggest problem..... those bloody french eat snails... bloody bastard$ :D
and we better dont speak about chit&fish :P
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Originally posted by jEEZY
Indeed we are. At the time of Union in 1789 we were a very diverse nation. English, German, French, Spanish, and aboriginal dilects were spoken. Disagreements over human rights were rampant--think slavery. The economic bases of the different regions were as different as they come--agrarian v. industrial. The history of the southern portion of N. Amer. is/was very different than the history of the Northern portion. Not to mention the west, whcih was not incorporated until the 19th century. The regional cusines of America demonstrate just how different we are, in the same vain as De Gaul--How can you lead a nation with 5000 types of Bar-B-Que?
I assumed the 13 initial colonies were more homogenous than the actual Europe but I'm perhaps wrong.
Btw it's : de Gaulle and it was 500 cheeses :)
BTW, and no offense intended, USA consists of 50 states. [/B]
No offense taken I allways make the very same mistake with Washington DC (since 20 year at least i constant :D)
@lada : you bastige I'm hungry now !
But eating snails at 23:00 it 's perhaps a bit to much even for me :)
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Originally posted by Dowding
Neubob:
You are truly an enlightened individual. Congratulations Euro-stalker!
Why don't you tell me how I'm wrong....I didn't see Arafat running to Japan when his noodle started falling off.
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You need now to explain me how it's linking with European Anti semitism.
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Originally posted by Halo
"... the planet has a second superpower now, and ... its global influence will continue to increase as the world moves toward a bipolar balance of economic, political, and diplomatic authority."
"bi[/i]polar"? I guess there's no China in his world.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Until the European Union can act as a cohesive political, economic, and military unit, it will not achieve "superpower" status as we know it.
For example, the amount of taxes collected by the American federal government far eclipses that of any single state. About 19% of this tax money then goes into military spending, another 19% on discretionary spending, and close to 50% goes into social insurance programs such as Social Security and Medicare.
I ask this in all honesty... can Europeans on this board truly envision a day where a unified EU governmental body supersedes the power of the individual countries? Will this body alone determine if the EU goes to war regardless of the wishes of its constituents? If the EU decided to send EU troops comprised of all member nations into Iraq, would EU member nations support this action despite fundamentally disagreeing with it?
There's more to being a superpower than economics alone.
-- Todd/Leviathn
It's a gelded EU.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"bi[/i]polar"? I guess there's no China in his world.
Not to mention on this BBS:
Originally posted by Neubob
In other news, the existance of a heavily populated, economically-significant landmass in Asia is confirmed.
Anthropologists from Oxford, when questioned as to what this landmass will be named, say they cannot be certain as of yet, but are leaning towards calling this still enigmatic region 'China'.
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
I can also suggest the Book from Jeremy Ripotato peelin: "The Europen Dream".
"...The European Union’s $10.5 trillion GDP now eclipses the United States’, making it the largest economy in the world._ The EU is already the world’s leading exporter and largest internal trading market. Moreover, much of Europe enjoys a longer life span and greater literacy, and has less poverty and crime, less blight and sprawl, longer vacations, and shorter commutes to work than we do in the United States._ When one considers what makes a people great and what constitutes a better way of life, observes Ripotato peelin, Europe is beginning to surpass America."
Read more here:
The European Dream (http://www.foet.org/European%20Dream.htm)
R
Gh0stFT
While statistics may cause your hopes to rise, you've forgotten two essential components required to elevate a nation to super power status....Heart and Balls, both of which the EU can't even begin to understand much less possess....with the single exception of GB.
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Originally posted by Dowding
The EU already passes laws which the member governments have to abide by in every court in the judiciary. The only way to not abide by this legislature is to repeal the act of parliament that joined the UK with the EU, for instance.
Politically it won't be possible for many generations.
Neubob:
You are truly an enlightened individual. Congratulations Euro-stalker!
No truth to his last remark Dowding?
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Originally posted by lada
IMO Eu will not grow that fast anymore and if so, i guess it will grow toward north.
Norway?
Not much in the north to grow, I think.
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And what if russia joins some day ?
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Never fear, fellow "Euro-Stalkers"
Give them another thirty years, they'll turn on each other and we'll go back to selling warbonds and rationing our meat to keep them from ending the world.
Either that or we'll end the world ourselves.
Either way, the Chinese will be the only ones left when it's all said and done.
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Originally posted by Halo
Congratulations to the United States of Europe. Just finishing T.R. Reid's chronicle of united European accomplishments, his 2004 book called The United States of Europe -- the New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy.
Essentially he concludes:
"... the planet has a second superpower now, and ... its global influence will continue to increase as the world moves toward a bipolar balance of economic, political, and diplomatic authority."
Excellent compilation of contemporary European achievements (e.g., the euro) that have been mounting up individually until now the subcontinent is finally beginning to function as a collective entity in many situations.
Enjoy the book from your local bookstore or library.
Welll???
What is the second superpower??
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Originally posted by Rude
While statistics may cause your hopes to rise, you've forgotten two essential components required to elevate a nation to super power status....Heart and Balls, both of which the EU can't even begin to understand much less possess....with the single exception of GB.
invading a 3rd world country and undermining its sovereignty doesn't take balls, it just takes a stupid man with blind followers...in other words, atomotons
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Originally posted by SLO
invading a 3rd world country and undermining its sovereignty doesn't take balls, it just takes a stupid man with blind followers...in other words, atomotons
ya i was thinking the same, balls for what? a new war every
5 or 10 years?
Europe saw more then enough wars the last century,
the new century is about working togheter for a better future.
if something takes balls, then this challenge.
R
Gh0stFT
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I wouldnt call the EU a 'united states'... it more like a loose federation of nations.
When and IF (which i seriously doubt) they truly merge their military and economy , THEN they may be something for the USA to watch out for.
But.... I really dont see neither France nor Germany , definetely not the UK or any euro nation for that matter doing that. Not in a couple hundred years more at least.
Plus euro population is dropping like a rock. Soon there will be a big economic issues in euroland from this.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
And what if russia joins some day ?
Don't see that happening soon... So it's you Norwegians. :)
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Originally posted by Panzzer
Don't see that happening soon... So it's you Norwegians. :)
Would this mean they would have to share their oil profits? :)
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ya i was thinking the same, balls for what? a new war every
The bitter irony of this of course is that the EU's membership, aside from the UK, was handed thier democracy to them b/c another democracy decided to go to war. Not to mention that their economic pumps were primed by that same country. Now they refuse to give other nations that same courtesy. They reap the rewards of democracy but refuse to understand the responsibilty therein. A shame, really.
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soda72
Oh yes, they would have to give their money to us Finns (plus Straffo and Saw etc fellas here)... :D
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As soon as Europe lands a man on the moon they will only be 35 years behind the US!
eskimo
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The United States was also a "Loose Confederation of States" once too. Guess what happened both times it was attempted.
Btw, Giving freedom takes balls guys. No matter how you try to spin it.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
As soon as Europe lands a man on the moon they will only be 35 years behind the US!
eskimo
What if they do it 40 years from now? ;)
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Originally posted by jEEZY
The bitter irony of this of course is that the EU's membership, aside from the UK, was handed thier democracy to them b/c another democracy decided to go to war. Not to mention that their economic pumps were primed by that same country. Now they refuse to give other nations that same courtesy. They reap the rewards of democracy but refuse to understand the responsibilty therein. A shame, really.
Hmm, are you actually sure which countries are in the EU, aside from the UK... Not all the countries were liberated by "another democracy" (for example Sweden, Finland - and all of the Eastern European Countries -- unless you see Soviet Union as a democracy?)
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Originally posted by Panzzer
soda72
Oh yes, they would have to give their money to us Finns (plus Straffo and Saw etc fellas here)... :D
aah, so hell will freeze over before they join(or at least until the oil supply runs out).... I guess they are capitalist after all.. :D
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Your absolutley correct--Sweden was unaffected by the liberation of France, Germany, holland., belgium, etc.. In fact they were happy go lucky the entire time. The real shame is that it took 70 years to liberate the rest of Europe.
Obviously you missed the point regarding the reponsibility that democratic nations face .
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No, I did not miss that part of your post.. - sorry. :)
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[politically correct eunich]
We're all in this world together, people, so whatever happens that's positive, we can all stand to benefit from it, given the right attitude. If the EU is on its way up then we must view this as both an opportunity and a blessing. They are our partners in business and valuable allies in world affairs, and we cannot afford to alienate them anymore then they can us. The civilized world is refered to as such because people are willing to work past geographic borders and ideological boundaries, and possess enough foresight to identify potential gains for all parties involved. Something as insignificant as an ocean should not stand in the way of our being happy for others, as those others have undoubtedly been happy for us in the past. We are, afterall, first and foremost, residents of this planet, and being such, have more in common than we do differentiating us. Let's start acting like it, and end this pissing contest. [/politically correct eunich]
Phew!! I've been dying to try that character out for a while, now. It's like taking a dump with my brain. Time for a nap.
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Sorry to be so blunt.
I have all the respect in the world for the Finns--they were maybe the first country to stand up to the tyranny that was the USSR .
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Straffo
The United States is made up of people from more then 52 different counties as you know. We do have our problems, and believe me I am rooting for the Euro Union. If it works, hopefully more stability will be realized not only for Europe but for the rest of the world as well. Hopefully they won't keep shooting one another in the foot.
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Originally posted by OIO
I wouldnt call the EU a 'united states'... it more like a loose federation of nations.
When and IF (which i seriously doubt) they truly merge their military and economy , THEN they may be something for the USA to watch out for.
But.... I really dont see neither France nor Germany , definetely not the UK or any euro nation for that matter doing that. Not in a couple hundred years more at least.
Plus euro population is dropping like a rock. Soon there will be a big economic issues in euroland from this.
More like a loose confederation of welfare nations. Made up of once "was" great powers and never "was" wannabies.
In any event unless France is publically declared its undisputed leader it will never acheive its true potential of a merge because unless that happens France, or I should say the French government will work to undermine those other nations every step of the way as they would never allow France to be governed by anyone who is not French.
Plus, its the French way
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Which comment, Rude? The one about anti-semitism being incorporated into European culture?
A baseless assertion and certainly not fact. His statement is so broad it's practically meaningless. Apart from the clear anti-European agenda, of course.
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A few additional excerpts from the book The United States of Europe:
"...European Union, a new kind of state in which the member nations have handed over much of their sovereignty to a transcontinental government in a community that is becoming legally, commercially, and culturally borderless. The EU, with a population of nearly half a billion people stretching from Ireland to Estonia, has a president, a parliament, a constitution, a cabinet, a central bank, a bill of rights, a unified patent office, and a court system with the power to overrule the highest courts of every member nation. It has a 60,000-member army (or 'European Rapid Reaction Force', to be precise) that is independent of NATO or any other outside control). It has its own space agency with 200 satellites in orbit and a project under way to send a European to Mars before Americans get there." (Page 2)
"Because the united Europe is the world's largest trade market, it is the 'Eurocrats' in Brussels , more and more, who make the business regulations that govern global industry." (Page 5)
"But one ESA [European Space Agency] satellite project has been designed specifically to challenge American space supremacy -- and has drawn an angry reaction from the Americans. That is 'Galileo,' a belt of thirty navigational and positioning satellites that will offer an improved version of the American GPS -- or Global Positioning System -- that is used all over the world." (Page 141)
Other key areas include comparisons of the American and European systems of medical care, welfare, justice (including death penalty), privacy, unemployment, immigration, pensions, vacations, military, drug tolerance, environment, food control, privacy, mass transit, finance, and culture.
My impression after finishing the book is that America and Europe have a sort of parent-child relationship with neither agreeing on who is which. Europe would be nowhere nearly as well off as it is today without the American military umbrella and American aid and trade after the two world wars, and many Europeans still acknowedge this.
This book can only be another interim status look at The United States of Europe work in progress. Formidable obstacles to the United States of Europe include the high cost of its welfare states, the aging core populations coupled with intense immigration pressure from have-not nations, a language morass that includes all official documents being prepared in TWENTY different languages (compared to "only" six for the United Nations), and member nations ostensibly yielding to European Union institutions but only to the point they don't seriously differ from vital national beliefs.
Benefits already include the strong common currency (euro), more efficient and equitable economic markets, greatly improved travel and access, stronger trade and environmental controls, stronger human rights, and tougher privacy rules.
In focusing on Europe and America, the book does not talk much about the rest of the world. As some of you pointed out, calling this a bi-polar world misses a lot of major influences including China, Russia, Japan, India, Australia, the Middle East, South America, Southeast Asia, and Africa.
If you're interested enough to be reading this thread, you really ought to at least skim T.R. Reid's book The United States of Europe. Free at your local library -- check it out.
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Originally posted by SLO
invading a 3rd world country and undermining its sovereignty doesn't take balls, it just takes a stupid man with blind followers...in other words, atomotons
I'd rather follow a stupid man who doesn't stand around on the sidelines watching a homicidal maniac bribe these so called "Smart" leaders from "Smart" countries to the point where the very sanctions they are charged with enforcing degrade to utter insignificance while routinely committing mass murder on his own population
Then follow the lead of these "smart" countries and their leaders by standing around and doing nothing but accepting the bribes and looking the other way while mass murder is committed and using the piss poor excuse of "Sovereignty" as an excuse.
I was and am For the war in Iraq. I would have been for it had Clinton done it, or even if France, Germany or even sweet little ol Canada done it.
But they didn't, and lets face it, they didn't have the balls, the heart or the stomach for it.
They, France and Germany in particular would have been more then happy to continue profiting from the Oil for food Scam and giving nothing more then a nod and a wink to the utter butchery he was committing on his own people, and would have eventually been more then willing to sell Saddam the weaponry he desired.
And if we were being honest. The leaders of these countries are really mad at the US for disturbing their gravy train.
And like the babies they are, they got upset when the tit ran dry and are now throwing their current temper tantrum.
and that's what it REALLY boils down to
Oddly enough these very same counties Im sure will be more then willing to profit from the rebuilding efforts its going to take.
In short you don't have the balls to do any of the bleeding to do what's right but you'll have more then enough balls to accept the profits from the contracts that will eventually be awarded.
And using "sovereignty" as an excuse to justify allowing a maniac to butcher his own people is a piss poor one at that.
As the saying goes "All that is needed for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing"
this reeks of the same kind of mentality that people have who watch a murder being committed on the street yet saying and doing nothing because they "didn't want to get involved"
I'd rather follow a stupid leader who has the courage to get involved then be part of a nation who disgracefully would rather stand around and do nothing but let it happen
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Originally posted by Halo
"...European Union, a new kind of state in which the member nations have handed over much of their sovereignty to a transcontinental government
See now this is exactly my point.
Not really meaning to "pick on" the French over this but its true.
Think about it. which French government is going to be willing to do this unless IT is the one in charge?
France will never be willing to hand over any part of its sovereignty to anyone other then a French leader.
As much as I hate to admit it, is an admirable quality
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A comment on the 'French and Germans will rule'.
When (if) Turkey joins predicted in 20 year it will be the most populous and therefore will have the most seats in the european parliment.
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Originally posted by scout
A comment on the 'French and Germans will rule'.
When (if) Turkey joins predicted in 20 year it will be the most populous and therefore will have the most seats in the european parliment.
The whole thing is a big mess imo.
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Government is the authoritative allocation of values. Government derives its power from two key sources: authority and legitimacy.
Authority comes from the ability of government to enforce its decisions on how to allocate values. It does this through a legal system and through the threat of imprisonment or force against those who deny the government's authority. Legitimacy comes from the government's citizens seeing those decisions as binding, legal, and acceptable even if they might disagree with them.
Can we honesty say that the EU right now fits the definition of a cohesive "government?" Will it ever? Certainly it is a formidable economic bloc -- the wealthiest in the world -- but without a way to authoritatively allocate that wealth toward goals consistent with a common EU world view, it does not represent a polar anything. It does not represent the sum of its parts... yet.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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What? None of you w*nkers have mentioned bad teeth and hairy armpits yet? I'm surprised!
I ask this in all honesty... can Europeans on this board truly envision a day where a unified EU governmental body supersedes the power of the individual countries? Will this body alone determine if the EU goes to war regardless of the wishes of its constituents? If the EU decided to send EU troops comprised of all member nations into Iraq, would EU member nations support this action despite fundamentally disagreeing with it?
It will not happen. Too many different cultures & way of living. (for a longer period of time your country ever existed) ... oh wait, how did you deal with the older local population again? right...
The aim is not to have one country, but to equalise the economy. No one ever mentioned a "one country". I can dig out the EU constitution draft at work if you like. (I work at the European Commission)
Yuropeans should just all become luxemburgish, that'd settle it, and everything would be "tip top".
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Originally posted by Hajo
Straffo
The United States is made up of people from more then 52 different counties as you know. We do have our problems, and believe me I am rooting for the Euro Union. If it works, hopefully more stability will be realized not only for Europe but for the rest of the world as well. Hopefully they won't keep shooting one another in the foot.
Quite right :)
But the formation of the USA is different than the EU formation , the EU is a political process country.
It would be like accepting in the USA Canada and Mexico for example as they are,not accepting individual in the USA.
It's different IMO :)
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Fear the euro. Bottom line, they are as corrupt a bunch as ever was. What comes around goes around and if euro ever has a rising sun then surely their sun will set.
euro
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DMF, if you have some spare time to read it all, you can always look for the line where the EU consitution states the aim is to build a "unique country". I found no such reference.
EU constitution draft (http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:C:2004:310:SOM:EN:HTML)
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Originally posted by Yeager
Fear the euro. Bottom line, they are as corrupt a bunch as ever was. What comes around goes around and if euro ever has a rising sun then surely their sun will set.
euro
oh my
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Simple fact is that Germany and France have their own interests at heart, not a United Europe. Germany and France have consistently broken budget agreements and have not been punished and nor they will be.
The creation of a United Europe is a method to simply put a brake on the United States, to creat a rival Superpower and to dilute its influence in the world. Germany and France are the driving force behind this rationale.
The allocation of votes to member states is not governed by the size of the population,
Holland has 13 votes for a population of 16 million
UK has 29 votes for for a population of 60 million
Germany 29 votes for a population of 80 million
Spain has 27 votes for a population of 40 million
So.... Turkey can expect few votes regardless of population size, they are coming to the club too late.
In my opinion, the USA should worry more about their southern neighbour taking them over ;)
wipass
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oops.. i bet we would almost owe the EU a vote then if we joined.... maybe we would get one if Brussels is in a good mood :D
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nilsen,
you can have some of our votes, nobody takes any notice of us anyway :D
wipass
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I find it ironic that certain americans are so keen to remind the rest of the world about the sacrifices of their previous generations and are yet equally as eager to denigrate the european project which was founded on the ashes of the conflict that they so frequently allude to. A project that as much now as in its inception is intended to bring reconciliation instead of strife to the continent and eliminate the militarism to which so many americans, as we are so frequently reminded, were sacrificed.
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Nilsen, every time you quote Yeager you make his inane drivel visible for those of us who put him on 'ignore' long ago.
Please desist, sir!
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Originally posted by Saintaw
DMF, if you have some spare time to read it all, you can always look for the line where the EU consitution states the aim is to build a "unique country". I found no such reference.
Right, but that's the problem. Without the political power to authoritatively allocate its enormous wealth, the EU is not the same kind of entity as the United States. That may be a good thing, and that may be by design so as to eliminate any tendency toward imperialism or whatnot, but the fact remains that without a coherent structure for unifying the political, economic, and military axes, the EU doesn't really create or threaten to create a bipolar world. Not yet anyway.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I find it ironic that certain americans are so keen to remind the rest of the world about the sacrifices of their previous generations and are yet equally as eager to denigrate the european project which was founded on the ashes of the conflict that they so frequently allude to. A project that as much now as in its inception is intended to bring reconciliation instead of strife to the continent and eliminate the militarism to which so many americans, as we are so frequently reminded, were sacrificed
Pretty words, nice rhetoric.
I believe wipass said it succinctly:
Simple fact is that Germany and France have their own interests at heart, not a United Europe. Germany and France have consistently broken budget agreements and have not been punished and nor they will be.
Hard not to see that. From our point of view, neither France nor Germany can be trusted to be honest or to act w/ integrity so it is impossible for us to view the EU w/ anything but skepticism at best.
I'd be thrilled for the populace of the EU if it raised their standard of living, I'd say Bully for them!
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Originally posted by Wilfrid
Nilsen, every time you quote Yeager you make his inane drivel visible for those of us who put him on 'ignore' long ago.
Please desist, sir!
As i dont want to offend anyone, I will honor your request sir :)
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Originally posted by Steve
Pretty words, nice rhetoric.
I believe wipass said it succinctly:
Hard not to see that. From our point of view, neither France nor Germany can be trusted to be honest or to act w/ integrity so it is impossible for us to view the EU w/ anything but skepticism at best.
I'd be thrilled for the populace of the EU if it raised their standard of living, I'd say Bully for them!
Oh here we go again. The same old bull***** dittohead argument: France and Germany and the rest of what the neocons term "old" europe always act out out venal self-interest whereas the the gallant US of A always has the best interests of the planet at heart and always acts out of the purest of motives.
Too funny.
You should welcome the prospect of a strong EU. In 50 years time you'll need all the friends you can get just to contain the infuence of China.
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Nah, we sent Secret Agent Walmart to takeover China. He's actually ahead of schedule, so no problem there. ;)