Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKS\/\/ulfe on December 16, 2004, 12:52:19 PM
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You should read the whole thread, start to finish. Towards the end it gets absurd, but if what is being hinted at is true - it effects us all.
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002241
-SW
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*speechless*
:(
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With trademark & IP lawsuits being all the rage, I'm actually kinda suprised it took this long.
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I'm waiting for someone to chime in and tell us how this dirty russian is stealing their sacred IP from these poor corporations :p
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whats next .... sue all the history books also. talk about rediculass ...
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With some finesse you could create a PR ****storm that would impact investment. I imagine the typical investor would also be in the demographic that would find this frivolous, lacking proprity and an attack on "good companies that make an effort to keep the heroism and sacrifices of the time alive..."
Charon
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What's funny, or maybe more along the lines of showing the greed our country runs on these days, is that it wasn't until Pacific Fighters was released that the legal action was taken - which was the first of the series to depict an American aircraft, that was also going down in flames, on the packaging.
Apparently it's all true, Oleg has said all future work, or plans, on anything American related has ceased permanently.
**** you very much Lockheed-Martin and Northrop-Grumman.
-SW
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Or this could just be another dumb internet rumor.
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Oleg has himself said that all American planes will no longer be included.
-SW
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They won't take my flight sims until they pry my cold dead hands from the joystick!
:mad:
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How powerful do you think it would be if everyone just said, "No." Including the legal system.
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jeesus, thats really messed up..
How will this effect AH?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
jeesus, thats really messed up..
How will this effect AH?
HTC removes all american rides, Luftwhiners laugh.. til Mercedes and BMW shoot down their rides and Mitsubishi ends up buying AH and forcing it to consist just of endless dogfights of unbreakable zeros with manga pilots and advertising for mobile phones on the wings.
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That is what I'm curious about. Anyone want to find out if they are trying to strongarm HTC too?
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I heard it's all Bill Gates' fault. It's MSFS, or nothing. Think about it.....all that money.....all that power....:p
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i have relatives that would turn over in their grave if they knew this was happening.
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Originally posted by moose
i have relatives that would turn over in their grave if they knew this was happening.
You mean the dead ones, I hope?
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Does that also mean any race game with a ford, dodge, or chevy in it will have to move to say the flintstone car error or would Hanna Barbara litigate..
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I remember one of the cars in Grand Prix Legends had this issue. I wonder what the law is on this and how it applies given the age, history and format. Is it ok to use in a history book which is read for enjoyment as well as educational purposes and sold at a profit? What about WW2 fiction which is more entertainment than history. What about the role these games do in providing "living" history of an educational nature in addition to the entertainment?
Is there any established law here or just the threat of deep-pocket expenditures trying to find out?
I still can't believe a major corporation is doing something that at best offers a minimal licensing return yet has the potential to be a real embarrassment on a highly emotional subject among many potential shareholders. A competent PR professional would have shut down the lawyer and found a way to have a proactive and promotional relationship with game developers. I wonder if Microsoft has an hand in this -- cut deals with the current companies and have them do the dirty work on the competition [from speculation at the simHQ site]. Par for the course if so.
BTW, if there is some sort of grandfather clause at work I would hope HTC drops everything to get the F6F-3, P-47N/M/C out with the next patch, even if very rough renditions.
Charon
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Originally posted by 1K0N
Does that also mean any race game with a ford, dodge, or chevy in it will have to move to say the flintstone car error or would Hanna Barbara litigate..
Already happend with the NASCAR & F1 games
:mad: :mad:
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any chance of finding out if this affects AH/HTC at all?
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I've have yet to see anywhere a "North American" P51d Mustang...only a plane designated as a P51D. -
Infact, I don't see any "trademarks" that point towards a certain manufacturer or company. We get the military designations - that's it. Even in Help section - no info on the engine....but im not sure. About the only thing I could see close to to "copyright" infringement would be the data cards on the b27, b24.
I think this message board would have a better chance of getting the lawyers looking at it than Aces High :)
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Its more then an intardnet rumor, there's some substance there. But unfortunately these things take on a life of their own.
But that said FB was a great game before the Ami planes, FB/AEP/PF is a great game now without the F4U-4, P-61 and P-47N. It will continue to be a great game for those of us who are enjoy the Eastern Front.
Hopefully Oleg will clear it all up.
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Welll the rumor is true, IAN (who has worked closely with Oleg on various projects for IL2/FB/AEP) made thsi post over at UBI:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002258
Yes, it's true
Further US aircraft are unlikely for the reasons suggested in other threads.
I think the companies are crazy.
Damn shame for you farm bois. With BoB in the works this means no Ami planes or the vaunted med expansion.
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Sheesh.. what can you say except whats better than one lawyer in the bottom of the river??
... Ten more?
Just plain ridiculous. My guess is that this kind of world will destroy itself in near future, somehow.. Maybe oil runs out and ***** hits the fan or sumthin..
What is most frustrating is that 1 % of people who are most loud, most stupid and all low words you can even think about, make themselves visible and make everything to run by their rules.. then rest of people just try to live on.. wait the day when people just get pissed to these frellheads....
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quick! pull the commercials off of TV...we'll just hide out until it blows over....lol :)
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Originally posted by Wotan
But that said FB was a great game before the Ami planes, FB/AEP/PF is a great game now without the F4U-4, P-61 and P-47N. It will continue to be a great game for those of us who are enjoy the Eastern Front.
It's easy to say that, but I bought Pacific Fighters for an Avenger and 4 models of a B-25.
There's a lot of things missing from the Pacific, and we'll never see them because of this. Fantastic.
-SW
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Yeah, I can see where you are dissappointed by the PF flop but that was a direct result of Luthier's mis-management and unrealistic expectations that 'volunteer' modellers would do things correctly and on time.
Oleg ended up taking over PF development for the most part. I was never interested in the Paciific and since the DS patches came out I haven't bothered one sortie on a pac server. I bought PF to keep up with future expansion (Kurland and Murmansk maps ju88, italian planes, pe2 etc...) and to get rid of the stupid muzzle explosions.
It seems with hindsight Oleg should have said to hell with the Pac stuff and filled up the wholes in the East front plane set while working on BoB. PF set back BoB and is the origin of his copyright problems now. He might have gotten away with a few p47s, p51s and p38s. Add all them blue planes and show one getting shot down on the box cover its bound to piss off someone.
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hi guys, i am not going to read 5 pages worth of posts, can someone give the "short version" of the story?
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I'm interested in all fronts, I like to be able to switch around when one gets too stale - I hate the Yak's because their armament is crap for the most part. I like the I16s though, early LaGG, and early La5. I think it's the asymmetrical line up of the single MG in the Yaks that really gets me, throws off my aim for some reason.
I like Carrier ops, and the Pacific is an interesting theater. Not to mention several of the planes in the Pacific are Lend-Lease on the Eastern Front too - A20s, B25s, early P39s, early P40s, etc.
Now, I wonder if we are going to have the current US aircraft after the next patch...
-SW
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hi guys, i am not going to read 5 pages worth of posts, can someone give the "short version" of the story?
No one knows for sure. Apparently there are some trademark and/or copyright infringements by UBI and Maddox games.
It would appear that UBI will no longer publish or distribute add ons for FB/AEP/PF if they contain Ami planes. Apparently Ami aircraft coporations are upset over the inclusion of some Ami planes in PF. What exactly they are 'upset' about is unclear.
What it means is Oleg will not release any add-ons in the west that contain Ami aircraft. But he has hinted that there will be a Russian Language release in Russia only. UBI doesn't publish/distribute the game in Russia. The rest of the world will have to do with out them.
At least thats how I read it...
I am sure some will correct me if I am off base.
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the gist of what i got was pratt and whitney is the culprit... my confusion about the matter is... wtfgas about P&W's threats since you can't even see the damn engines.
if i were oleg, i'd set up a small office in America and then simply claim, 1st amendment rights due to being a public "figure" and ummm parody... yeah... or public domain...
do they even make the same engines these days?
just do it and tell the lawyers to stuff it... see how far it would actually go in court... not very...
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!amazed
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It's not P&W.
-SW
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Wotan, looks like even the Eastern Front won't be expanded anymore for the westerners.
From Oleg: And 100% sure Russian market will get Pe-2 series flyable with many new ground objects and map as pay add-on. Unfortunatelly can't tell about western market. It depends of our publisher decision.
-SW
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THE SKY IS FALLING
THE SKY IS FALLING
THE SKY IS FALLING
very doubful that Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Vought Aircraft Industries, and Lockheed Martin will risk the backlash of negative PR over a frivolous lawsuit.
my bet is that this Oleg character did something that offended them and that is why this has gone so far.
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It is official (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002258)
-SW
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Wotan, looks like even the Eastern Front won't be expanded anymore for the westerners.
The publisher is UBI, UBI isn't making money off Oleg any more so they might not distribute anything else until BoB, if that...
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Weird that AMI planes will not be allowed in sims when R/C manufacturers pour out a model after another modelling P38, P-40 etc.. what about them?
And R/C planes crash a lot.. I got a first had experince:D
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It is official (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002258)
-SW
Sure is a real official announcement there...
Sorry, I am just not buying into this.
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Well, whatever. Ianboys works with Oleg, and Ilya, for maps and other projects. He's in the know.
-SW
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Russian developer, French distributer.
...maybe?
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Freedom fries?
-SW
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Originally posted by Bodhi
very doubful that Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Vought Aircraft Industries, and Lockheed Martin will risk the backlash of negative PR over a frivolous lawsuit.
Yeah, it doesn't make alot alot of sense to me either.
These companies have not enforced these 'rights' for over 50 years. Are they going to sue every model and toy manufacturer also?
What are their damages? This doesn't seem the same as a video game involving a car that you can go out an buy and that a compnay has spent millions on producing brand image.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
Yeah, it doesn't make alot alot of sense to me either.
These companies have not enforced these 'rights' for over 50 years. Are they going to sue every model and toy manufacturer also?
What are their damages? This doesn't seem the same as a video game involving a car that you can go out an buy and that a compnay has spent millions on producing brand image.
Thats another good aspect MZ, the fact that they have not EVER enforced any type of CR restrictions in the history of the concept. Kinda establishes a precedence... that makes this seem all the more fishy.
As for AKswulfe saying that this Oleg character and the Ian guy being in the know... if they really were in the know and this was really happening, they should have had the intelligence to:
A: follow their attorneys advice and say NOTHING.
B: call the news.... hell they'd love to slap a corporate giant for something like further examples of corporate greed
C: make an official release. Not some half witted responses on a stupid message board.
Which further makes me believe that this hold off in releases is either a political ploy on oleg's part, or that it is about a monetary issue for the developer not paying for future addons...
My bet is the latter.
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It's not the latter, the planes were going to be released for free and Oleg's next project is BoB which the publisher (UBI) is still going to publish.
-SW
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My favorite quote from the link you posted AKSWulfe:
I'm sorry, but how f*cking typical of US companies and their money grabbing poxy mindset...
...Maybe Al Queda should have targeted the supreme court instead, waste a few of these salamanders...
Tony
LOL!! Over a video game. And noone has called him on it.
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Oleg apparently made a cryptic post that confirms there is some sort of real problem. As some people at SimHQ have rightfully pointed out, there aren't enough details yet to know if Oleg somehow misused a trademark and was uncooperative or if it's the start of some general grab for licensing fees or something else entirely.
Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.
Please don't give corporate leadership too much credit. PR, sales and marketing, legal, etc. are all different disciplines. Most leadership does not come from a PR background (PR is a support function) and the leadership may not appreciate PR, the specifics of this gaming market, the level of involvement of the player base, or even the corporation’s own history or have any respect for that history. Fortunately, it's hard to imagine that flight sim development will go easy into the night. The vulnerabilities from a PR perspective include:
* David vs. Goliath - media likes these stories, corporations will not benefit.
* Frivolous lawsuit - again topical. Whether truly frivolous or not, worthy of editorial coverage and again not likely favorable. It also reflects a tactic mostly associated with failing tech companies. Do you really want to be seen in that light?
* Trademark/copyright - a hot topic for business editors and people like the Wall Street Journal so you can get some press, especially true given the exotic nature of trademarks in question. The business readership are your prime potential investors as well. What’s interesting is that McDonalds can sue Joe MacDonald who sets up a Mac Donald Hamburger stand. But, Joe is selling a competing product that can actually take sales away from the McDonalds franchise down the street. There are obvious difference her and significant differences even with the arguments that can be made for NASCAR and the NFL, which are ongoing enterprises that draw people to a product because of the brand name. Here, with the exception of a core element, many players don’t know a Vought from a Grumman from a Lagg when they first start playing. I think there are also potential 1st amendment issues at work, certainly with documentaries but perhaps with the educational role these games play. IMO. Still, a good topic that many editors would devote resources to cover.
* Opportunities to discuss the near monopoly power these huge merge corporations have, and extend that conversation into their current products and cost overruns, etc.
In a worst case scenario, the licensing returns from this niche market would likely be minimal (unless Microsoft moves in, pays a big fee to see CFS as the only player in the market). The community would be very active, and whether the law is on the corporate side or not, the spin battle is on the side of the small developers. The story will get coverage, the coverage will likely be sympathetic to the community, and eventually the bad press should outweigh any potential benefits.
It’s mind numbing that these companies don’t use their resources to be proactive with the community (while ensuring that the appropriate are added), generate good press, remind the world of their roles as pillars of freedom (using the gaming medium) etc. But, even if the PR person pushed the proper approach it doesn’t mean that the message was appreciated or will be (again if a worst case scenario) until the bad press starts developing. Then it’s a cost/benefit decision.
Charon.
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Here's the latest from Oleg Maddox:
Hi,
Rumors just partially right. nd in some way completely wrong
1) 1C was releasing add-ons as well in the past separatelly of Ubisoft in Russia.
It was released already 3 (or 4) add-ons with the static campaigns only for
Russian market and there was one of them a huge hit ("The roads of the war". After this add-on that was created by two guys one became a member of our team). However such add-ons didn't make Russian version incompatible online with the non-russian language versions. We are personally almost not involved in developemtn of them.
2) We are in a great hope that these planned add-ons will meet western market as well by one of the
ways and almost simultaniosly with the Russian. It will depends of many
factors that are out of our own control.
3) We will be way more busy with the new sim development. So these add-ons
will make third party with the guys that are trained well here in Moscow using our tools. So
from us it will be relatively minimal investment of the work that to make
final tunings and programming and to do not stop any developments of new
sim (BoB).
4) We can't sell ourselves on western market any additions, etc for the the
Il-2 series without agreement with Ubisoft. So they should decide what to
do if there will be such add-ons ready (localised at lest for English). Unfortunatelly usually such small add-ons are absolutley non-profitable in the west....
5) These add-on(s) contains only Russian planes and maps. Most of them are experimental prop+jet (such as existed and tested La-7R 1944, Yak-3R 1944, MiG-13 1945, etc, for which we have enough info that to model) and jet planes (say unreleased LaGG-3RD-1 1941-42, that looks like Yak-15). One of them MiG-9, which was never modelled in any sim. All is limited to 1946 year as we was agreed long time ago even with third party.
Also maps which are planned for these add-ons ar Ukraine and the area of East for 1945 invation of Russian troops in the war against Japan. For this if all will be Ok in time, ordered IL-10
6) As it known alredy for public by the leaked info, currently we will not develop or accept from third party any planes owned by Nothrop (Grumman, Vough, Republic). Even the one that we did already for free add-on... No comments. However it doesn't means that we really wont to model them now or in future.... Sorry can't tell you more curently.
7) Other planes - still possible. The limits are the same - they should be done without technology bugs. Such bug limit us in time and we ae unable to rework third party models as it was in the past (just 4 guys in the world doing currently 3D models for our sim with no bugs... Sorry)
8) the maps of Murmansk and Kurland (for use of NN as well) for a merged install will be available for free when its done finally.
Hope I answer for all possible questions.
-SW
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hehe here's another one.
warrior fs2004 crash (http://www.flightsim.com/review/ausswarr/WarriorCrash.jpg)
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the light of reason cometh.
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Sounds like a bunch of BS. That guys spelling is horrible.
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I spell better than the average english native speaker... therefore everything I say must be true. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by takeda
I spell better than the average english native speaker... therefore everything I say must be true. :rolleyes:
you probably blow a better goat... what does that say.
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Originally posted by Charon
Please don't give corporate leadership too much credit. PR, sales and marketing, legal, etc. are all different disciplines.
I don't give them credit for using common sense, but legally I am still wondering.
Aside from whatever ludicrous time limit that Congress has given to copyright owners, there has to be some other legal criteria that allows things to slip into the public domain. Can you go 50 years without enforcing a copyright and then turn around and decide to?
I am also having difficulty understanding how these games become a money loss for Northrop, or somehow does damage to their reputation. Perhaps these games makes the company feel that their copyright has been 'diluted', but it is too late for that and this is not likely affect Northrop's sales of hellcats and thunderbolts.
Sickboy, you reading this?
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No one's looking at this in any positive light....
Wouldn't it be great to stop 90% of the Luftwhiner/farmboi BS by liscensing the "official" Daimler Benz or Supermarine data set?
Could it be that these companies could see money in maintaining and releasing their archives commercialy? That it could lead to aero companies seeing "old stuff" as a resource and preserving it?
Could it not actualy be a help to start ups such as HTC was only a few years ago, to be able to go to Grumman and "buy" the complete "F41-c" package; for instance; freeing up thousands of man hours of research and allowing them to concentrate on programming and game design?
It's one more sign that online gaming is being taken seriously by the real world and that's not a bad thing.
I think there's more than one take on this; and I'm surprised at the kneejerk reactions being shown.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
Sickboy, you reading this?
Yeah, I'm reading it and following this, but I don't think that there's enough information to warrent a comment at this point. I agree with what you've said about laches and the public domain, although I don't know the specific law in question. Talk to me in a year :)
Either way, I cant even hazard a guess as to what the issue in question is.
-Sik