Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: dtango on August 07, 2001, 05:36:00 PM
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A semi-common manuever I've encountered while in BnZ mode and closing on a defender from 6'o-clock level is a defensive barrel roll. Several things can transpire afterwards:
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- If I have a lot more E, my shot is spoiled, I blow past and zoom up to setup for another pass. -This outcome I don't mind as much.
- If my speed is slighthly faster than the bogey and if I'm not careful this puts me in a real pickle barrel with the enemy rolling onto my 6 as I overshoot with me having really no appreciable E advantage at all to extend away. I end up either trying to extend desperately or in rolling scissors (which I'm horrible at!). - This outcome I do mind!
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This defense seems to be pretty effective, but when I've been the defender and tried the manuever I can't seem to get it. I typically end up doing either aileron rolls, making my barrel rolls too small where I can't force an overshoot, or making them too large/slow so that an attacker can follow or I burn up way too much E.
I'm looking for people's advice on the topic. What is the proper way to execute the manuever? What is a counter if you are an attacker?
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: dtango ]
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I think the trick is to NOT fall into a simple aileron roll where you're rolling about the same axis. This does nothing (or very little) to force the overshoot. You need to do a TRUE barrel roll where you lose little speed but are now traversing a longer distance to cover the same ground since you are now following a spiral path to get there.
Hope this helps. :)
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Well the trick is, this is essentially a sucker move. :) A defensive barrel roll is essentially a way to make the other guy overshoot by using a barrel roll to make your flight path longer. At the same time as you lengthen your flight path, you also roll around in a manner that is difficult to track, so you avoid getting shot most of the time. If your attacker sees what you are doing and understands how to counter it, he will either camp out on your six and blow you away when your E bleeds down from all the maneuvering, or if he has enough E he'll zoom up BEFORE he overshoots and set up another attack. Notice the capital letters. :) It's no good to overshoot horribly and THEN try to zoom up and away. You have to see it coming beforehand, then either slow down and lengthen your flight path to follow him, or zoom back up before you overshoot and become a target.
If you have enough extra smash (speed) you can often simply blow through into a steep zoom before he can get to you. However, after the second or third attempt, that energy advantage will likely have dwindled, and you won't have the extra speed to overshoot without getting nailed for it.
It all boils down to understanding what the defender is trying to do, and what the available counters are. If you are going to try and shoot him anyway, you need to decide that early and go for it, then be ready to extend to his cold side (bottom of his plane) to zoom back up. If you don't think you can hit him, be prepared to either zoom away early and possibly try to sucker him in to following you up without enough E, or camp out on his six without overshooting.
Now, this is a very different move from a "barrel roll attack". That uses a barrel roll to generate separation to allow the attacker with more speed/energy to stay in the bogey's rear quarter without giving up his speed advantage. It's not an intuitive move, and pretty much the only way I every understood it was by buying Shaw's Fighter Combat and reading that section while practicing it online and dying a lot attempting it. :D
Now if you are using a barrel roll defensively, you need to do two critical things. 1. Estimate the attacker's energy level. 2. Hit a good barrel roll at just the right time. Both of these are tough to do. In order for the barrl roll defense to work, the attacker must have more energy than you, and at the attack point that means more speed. If he isn't already flying quite a bit faster than you are, he may be able to simply slow down a bit and stay on your six. Assuming he is quite a bit faster and is not going to be able to slow down and stay with you, it comes down to timing. You want to hit a big barrel roll with lots of back stick (so you make a big corkscrew in the air) at JUST the right time. Ideally you want to start it just before he is going to shoot you so that he lines you up for the shot (pulling lead pursuit and increasing his closure rate... ensuring an overshoot) but that you are rolling out of his gun sights before the bullets hit home. Getting the timing right is the hard part. Make sure you are pulling back on the stick enough to make a real barrel roll, practice this and film it, then review with trails on and make sure you displace your flight path lots, not just roll around your engine line.
Ok, lets say the attacker dives in to your six, and starts lining up for the shot. You start a very gentle break to the left and he lines you up for a nice deflection shot. Sucker! :D As he gets in range, you suddenly pull into a hard barrel roll. His shot misses, and you watch him and see he is going to overshoot. Once he is going to blow through, you are unloaded (not pulling back anymore) and rolling onto his flight path. If he has blown it and you timed it right, you are now on his six as he zooms away, but you may get there in time for a nice snapshot opportunity before he is out of range. Now if you've got a shot take it, but otherwise you should be accellerating as much as you can, and building speed. You'll need more E to burn to defend his next attack.
One more thing, after he overshoots and you can't quite get guns on him, DO NOT try to follow him up. Assuming he had more E and was forced to overshoot, you will stall out below him if you try to go up with him. This is every E fighter's dream... that the guy who just evaded him will get sucked in to going vertical without enough E, and then stall and wallow helplessly below for an easy kill. Don't take the bait!
[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]
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Thanks for the responses guys. Lephturn, thanks for the great post dealing with both the attacker and defender roles.
A few questions:[list=1]
- As a defender what's a typical range that you use as a cue to time initiating the barrel roll?
- I assume that you start the barrel roll in the direction of your gentle break. Is it ever advisable to try barrel rolling in the opposite direction?
- Lephturn, what does your training schedule look like? I would very much like to practice this as a defender and attacker. I've been practicing barrel rolls offline and filming to see if I'm able to get a lot of displacement and think I'm ready to add an opponent into the equation.
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On the offensive b-roll / "lag displacement roll"- I've read that part over and over in Shaw. I would like to get good at this as well. It's a hard maneuver to do without losing sight of the bogey and yet make the corkscrew large enough to displace your flight path.
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My fav defense for this attack is to do the following.
Pull up slightly while rolling left or right.. always do it differently. Continue to roll while pulling slightly and adding just a bit of rudder into the equation. When I see con can't follow the move and is pulling into zoom I continue the roll until I am now behind the con with a quick snapshot before he is outta guns range, once he is outta guns range get the heck outta dodge. You follow him for long you will make a nice supper :) :) This makes a large barrel roll in a lopsided way. It still lets me have the option while tracking the attacker to change my direction of travel if he has slowed down to follow me. As for the timing it is just one of those trial and error type things. It depends on your speed, his rate of closure and when you see him.
As Leph pointed out as the attacker you need to be able to read this manuever ahead of time to counter it. The key is when making a BnZ attack or trying to bounce an opponant is to start your dive early enough so that you are coming up from the cons low 6. If you overshoot then you are already moving up away from the target before they can get turned for a guns shot. If I see him pull a turn like this and I know I have a high rate of closure I will alot of times pull up and roll the opposite direction, watching the con in my six views, then continue the roll back down behind the con. Doing this I have created a little bit of seperation and converted my speed to alt. which when I roll back into the con I will have converted back to speed. You will lose site just for a moment as the con passes under the belly of your plane but it should be only a momentary lose of sight. With practice you can get good at figuring out where the con will be during this lose of sight. The better the opponant the less predictable they are. The guys like Leph that are really good very rarely turn the same way twice in a row or make the first break in the same direction. It makes it tougher to attack or defend :)
If Leph is tied up I am free Thurs and Friday that I could give ya a hand.
rocket@wardogs.org
S!
Rocket
AH Training Corp
AH CM Team
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The barrel roll defensive is a great move if there is sufficient energy difference to effectively force the overshoot. If not your a sitting duck. Its also not recommended against hispano armed planes (or niks) with good roll ability (Chog) as they can just spray wildly at you, and one ping will ruin your day completely.
To work effectively, you need to 'offer' your 6 to a idiot pilot who was a large E difference (mostly inexperienced BnZ'ers), if they aint so inexperienced you may have just handed them your ass. so use with caution.
It works well against 109s :D as at high speeds they couldnt hit a barrel rolling con if they wanted to because of the low ROF and bad hi-speed roll/manueverability.
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Ok, lets answer your questions:
1. The answer is... it depends. :D It depends on closure rate, airspeed, effective guns range, and angle. Basically, the faster you both are flying and the faster he is closing, the earlier I'll hit my roll. But it's not cut and dried, it depends on what the attacker is doing and if he is lining up for a shot. I'd hate to give you rules that get you killed. Sometime between D 1.1k and D400... but it's better to hit it earlier than too late. :) Beware that if there isn't a decent amount of closure rate between you and your attacker, he may just follow you and kill you. This only works well if the attacker has more speed than you do at the attack point.
2. I will start the roll in the direction of my break sometimes. You have to be careful going the other direction, but I do that as well sometimes. The safest is likely to turn your gentle break into a barrel roll by continuing your roll, putting yourself even farther below the attackers nose and making it more difficult for him to get a shot in. I will sometimes go the other way, and roll it up, but you need to be very confident to do this. It can work well and give me a better shot if I pull it off, but it's more dangerous. You can roll either way... just don't be predictable! That is above all most important in fights where the enemy makes multiple passes at you, and this situation tends to work out that way if you do it right. :) Don't worry about doing the perfect move, just do a decent one to get out of his gunsights, and do something a bit different every time.
3. My training schedule isn't bad, but my real life schedule is crazy. I'm working OT, and I'm doing the Multiple Sclerosis bike tour this weekend. I'd be happy to train with you, but I'm afraid I'll have to wait until at least next week. In the mean time, I suggest you take rocket up on his offer. You can always train with me as well later on. :)
A lag displacement roll and a barrel roll attack are different in my mind anyway. I'll try to get time to discuss that a bit later today on the board. Both are challenging, but the barrel roll attack especially takes just the right setup to make it work.
BTW, Spatula and Rocket make great points as well. What weapons you are facing will help decide if you want to do this move at all, and if so at what range.
[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]
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Love this subject. Unfortunitly, I'm at work and the computer at my new house is not set up, so I can't go into great deal about my thoughts on this.
I have been practicing fighting from the defensive for 6 years now. Most of my kills come from this posture, and I consider it the black art of ACM. What you are taught as advantages in your journey to become an ace are now not so advantagous, and can lead to your outright death, if you fight a deffensive pilot that is aggressive and knows how to control the fight. So before I go into my speel(if I get around to it), I will leave this for continued discussion of this thread.
Would a vertical reversal be better before it even got to this point? A vertical reversal is setup long before the bandit has smash, but a lot of energy in the form of altitude.
Now if the bandit is fast and on your 6 at near your altitude I agree a reversal in the horizontal would be better. This is just another thought for you guys to discuss.
Drex
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Sorry one more observation. I never use the opposing bandit's guns to influence a certain flight path that I will take to setup a reversal. I always try to defeat the flight path of his airplane, and be in a position where deflection is limited. Regardless if its a 88mm cannon or a bb gun.
Drex
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Thanks for the posts guys. Sorry, I was also out of town over the end of the week and weekend. Just got back.
Rocket- I would have taken you up on your offer. Thur. and Fri nights are your training nights?
Lephturn- understand. I have to schedule stuff more than a couple of days in advance anyhow. If you are around this week let me know, otherwise I'll look for Rocket.
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>>A lag displacement roll and a barrel roll attack are different in my mind anyway. I'll try to get time to discuss that a bit later today on the board. Both are challenging, but the barrel roll attack especially takes just the right setup to make it work.<<
They certainly are!!
The Lag Roll is used to control closure and/or range. A Barrel Roll is used to control aspect. These maneuvers require considerable differences in flight control/throttle input.
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
>>They certainly are!!
The Lag Roll is used to control closure and/or range. A Barrel Roll is used to control aspect. These maneuvers require considerable differences in flight control/throttle input.
Andy
To (hopefully) expand on part of that...
Suppose you notice a bandit crossing your flightpath from left to right and lower than you are. You lead turn to intercept him and initiate a slight dive to get to his altitude... both geometry and E are helping you close on him... about the time you get to, say 15-20 AOT and ALMOST guns range, he breaks....
Now, even if your overtake is only moderate, you may very well overshoot.
Whether a lag-displacemnt roll is an appropriate choice depends entirely on which direction the bad guy breaks.
If he breaks AWAY from your nose, it is not. Your lead pursuit just became lag pursuit due to the direction of his break, and displacing further into lag (rolling away from his break) will only help him. It would basically give away all of your current advantage.
If, instead, he breaks across your nose, rolling away from his break should allow you to remain at his low 6 and preserve all your current advantages.
The basic thing to remember is that a lag roll needs to be initiated from a position of lead. It's one way of converting lead pursuit into lag pursuit so that you don't give away your starting advantage.
Dwarf
I hope Andy will expand on what he means by using the barrell-roll to control aspect.
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Originally posted by Dwarf:
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Suppose you notice a bandit crossing your flightpath from left to right and lower than you are...about the time you get to, say 15-20 AOT and ALMOST guns range, he breaks...If he breaks AWAY from your nose...
If he breaks away from your nose, he has solved your problem. Continue to close to guns.
...If, instead, he breaks across your nose, rolling away from his break should allow you to remain at his low 6 and preserve all your current advantages...
In this situation, a High Yo-Yo is probably more effective. A rolling maneuver would tend to increase angle off while decreasing aspect. A gross flight path overshoot may well occur. In any case, a rolling maneuver is flown to the high six, not the low six.
...The basic thing to remember is that a lag roll needs to be initiated from a position of lead...
Not so. It's not nose position that drives the lag roll...it's closure and/or min range. Heading crossing angle is a secondary issue.
...I hope Andy will expand on what he means by using the barrell-roll to control aspect..
In traditional BFM, the Barrel Roll is used to solve a positional problem. The classic situation is one where the attacker finds himself moving towards the bandit's 3/9 line. The attacker wants to convert to a six o'clock position. He uses a Barrel Roll to move laterally towards the bandit's six (decreasing aspect angle) without increasing his angle off.
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
...If, instead, he breaks across your nose, rolling away from his break should allow you to remain at his low 6 and preserve all your current advantages...
In this situation, a High Yo-Yo is probably more effective. A rolling maneuver would tend to increase angle off while decreasing aspect. A gross flight path overshoot may well occur. In any case, a rolling maneuver is flown to the high six, not the low six.
Agreed. In any situation where a lag roll might be effective, a Hi Yo-Yo should be at least equally effective.
...The basic thing to remember is that a lag roll needs to be initiated from a position of lead...
Not so. It's not nose position that drives the lag roll...it's closure and/or min range. Heading crossing angle is a secondary issue.
I think you're starting to stray into jet tactics and minimum missile range solutions here. Closure is going to have to be extremely high before rolling from lag pursuit into even greater lag pursuit is likely to pay off for a guns equiped prop fighter.
In traditional BFM, the Barrel Roll is used to solve a positional problem. The classic situation is one where the attacker finds himself moving towards the bandit's 3/9 line. The attacker wants to convert to a six o'clock position. He uses a Barrel Roll to move laterally towards the bandit's six (decreasing aspect angle) without increasing his angle off.
Andy
Thanks. I understand what you were saying now.
Dwarf
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Dwarf
>>Agreed. In any situation where a lag roll might be effective, a Hi Yo-Yo should be at least equally effective.<<
Not really true. A High Yo-Yo is designed for situations where a crossing angle exists, often against a turning opponent. In low angle off situations where excessive closure combined with min range is the problem, a High Yo-Yo is not the best solution.
The attacker in this case can do two things...throttle back or vector roll. A throttle chop seldom creates the desired reduction in closure, particularly when the closure is excessive. A Vector Roll is the better maneuver of choice. While a High Yo-Yo will create the lengthened flight path that will reduce closure, it will also allow the bandit an opportunity to extend away...something the use of a Vector Roll tends to avoid.
>>Closure is going to have to be extremely high before rolling from lag pursuit into even greater lag pursuit is likely to pay off for a guns equiped prop fighter.<<
A Vector Roll is not "greater lag pursuit". It is a maneuver that kills airspeed (and closure...the two are not the same) while preserving nose position...and it does this quicker than a throttle chop.
You know, Dwarf...I appreciate your enthusiasm for BFM...but I think you, like some others, have made the mistake of thinking that playing flight sim games and reading Shaw's book makes you a BFM expert. This is simply not the case. Shaw's book is a very well written exposition on the subject...but it is very academic and is best understood by those who have had the benefit of professional training and experience. In the same vein, simmers who enjoy NASCAR racing, should not think that they are qualified for the next Daytona 500!
Now, don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade...but too often I run across forum posts that are patently ridiculous...from people who are genuinely trying to be helpful and informative. Good on 'em...but bad info is worse than no info at all. Those readers that come to our forums for help are done a disservice by such amateurish info.
So where does this leave us? Clearly, few simmers are going to have the luxury of a military background and its attendant academics. Does this mean only military pilots should post on the forums? Not at all. My wish is that some of the more aggressive posters would use a little more of the "I think such-and-such should be the case, but I really am not sure" rather than being so noodlesure as to think that they have got a total clue light on all the time.
Please reread your posts. To me, you are pretty assertive in your statements...you leave little wiggle room in your pronouncements. Unfortunately, BFM begs for wiggle room because the subject is so completely dependent on many and varied assumptions.
I have two choices...well, really three. One...I can just let it go...but that's not fair to someone who might be taking what you say for the gospel truth. Or, I could step in and try to repair the damage.
That leaves my third option. I could just go away. Ever wonder why there are so few of us real world folks around here? I could give you a number of reasons...but here's the main one...they don't have time for know-it-alls that don't.
Andy
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Andy, I have a question regarding the lag roll pursuit. Before I get to that, I thought your description of the barrel roll for offensive maneuvering was excellent! Seriously, why don't you write a book on ACM/BFM for online sims? Everyone in my Squad has Shaw's book, but as you pointed out, it is highly technical. Your online articles have been quite excellent. Any plan to publish them all in one tome?
As for my lag roll question, I have always viewed it as a 'version' of the high yo-yo. I think what you said above is that 'it isn't'. Let me just explain to you how I have viewed it, and then you can tell me what it is I am actually doing. ;)
Now I will reference the Bandit wrt to my nose. Imagine I am closing with excess E onto a bandit which is offset to my left (We both have the same heading). The bandit, seeing me closing breaks left. So that I don't bleed E while turning into him, I would normally pull into a High Yo_Yo to maintain E and reposition onto the bandits 6 in either lag or pure pursuit. Now that's what I do and what I call it (Not saying it is correct ;) for a high yo-yo.
For the lag roll, take the same set-up, with the bandit offset left. The Bandit seeing me closing off his 5 OC, breaks across my nose to the right. Now, if I pull into what I call a high yo-yo, there is a point where I would lose sight of the bandit under me. So as the bandit begins it's break into me, I begin pulling up into the vertical, to maintain E, and as the bandits break turn begins to cross under my LOS, I roll over and keep him in viz as I pull over the top and roll back down behind him. I usually fly that in lag pursuit. My question is, is that a lag roll, a High Yo-Yo with a barrel roll added in, or just bad flying? :)
Thanks in advance. Especially for all the good advice you have offered throughout the years.
[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Sundog ]
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Sundog
>>Seriously, why don't you write a book on ACM/BFM for online sims?<<
Thanks for the attaboy! My writing partner, Leon "Badboy" Smith, and I have spent considerable time investigating ways to do a "how to" book. Unfortunately, for the kind of work that we want to do, we have yet to find a way that we can make work. We haven't given up the idea, though. Until then, we'll continue to work on articles and forum messages.
>>Imagine I am closing with excess E onto a bandit which is offset to my left...The bandit, seeing me closing breaks left...I...pull into a High Yo_Yo...<<
For starters, if the bandit breaks left in this situation, he's clueless and deserves to die! As a rule, a defender should break into the attacker, not away. Breaking away solves the attacker's positional and closure problems.
But, let's just say he does! Could you use a yo-yo? Certainly, particularly if you had excessive closure that a simple in-plane lag pursuit course would not overcome. While this is an unusual set up, your maneuver choice would be satisfactory, and I would still call it a High Yo-Yo.
>>For the lag roll, take the same set-up, with the bandit offset left. The Bandit seeing me closing off his 5 OC, breaks across my nose to the right.<<
In your initial description of the set up, you used words that are extremely pertinent to this discussion..."We both have the same heading". How so? Because the relationship of your fuselage alignment to the bandit's is a major determinant in your choice of maneuvers.
In my previous post, I mentioned that any discussion of BFM has to include some "wiggle room". Having said that, here is a rule of thumb to consider regarding the choice between a yo-yo and a rolling maneuver under these conditions:
1. If your angle off is less than 20-30 degrees, consider a rolling maneuver.
2. For angles off greater than 30 degrees, yo-yo off instead.
Why? Because a rolling maneuver tends to increase angle off. So does a yo-yo, but less so...and in our sims with their limited viewing platforms, the yo-yo is less disorienting.
When possible (viewing system permitting) I prefer the rolling maneuver, even under starting conditions of angle offs greater than 30 degrees. In this case, before I begin the roll, I attempt to align my fuselage as much as possible with the bandit. I only attempt this if I have sufficient range...if range is minimum, I yo-yo off.
>>My question is, is that a lag roll, a High Yo-Yo with a barrel roll added in, or just bad flying?<<
Sounds like good flying to me no matter what we call it. It may not fit the exact traditional definition of a High Yo-Yo or Barrel Roll...but your execution is what counts. You are getting out of plane to gain turning room...this is good. You are counter rolling to maintain a tally...good again. Then you time your pull down to fall into a guns position...perfect!
Don't change a thing!
Andy
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Thanks for the timely reply. In regards to a 'good way to explain these topics', what about making a CD Book? i.e., text and diagramattic explanations, but then add in animations to demonstrate the maneuver. Make the animation viewable from a 'camera overview' of the maneuver, the attackers viewpoint, and the defenders viewpoint.
The first animation would show the move/attack on the unwitting bandit. The second animation regarding the same maneuver would demonstrate a 'good' counter-maneuver by the bandit to thwart the attack. There could be the flight path representation as shown by the 'trail' command in AH film and/or the the three orthogonal planes plotting the courses of attacker/defender on the three planes. You could also have 'Energy Bars' on the side (Think of your stereo equalizer) showing Total Energy for each aircraft with two 'sub bars' next to the larger bars representing the seperate P.E. and K.E. of each aircraft to understand the energy management required for optimum performance of the manuever (Obviously under ideal circumstances).
Just food for thought. Maybe I'll see if I can whip something like that up in 3dSMax. If I do, I'll definitely forward it to you to check out.
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Sundog
Great ideas...but hard to make commercially feasible. We've looked at CDs, print, on-line, etc...and not found a way to make this make money. And, after all, it is a business deal!
One thing about air combat...not much new has come along in many a year. There are plenty of reference books, strategy guides, "how to" publications on the subject for simmers. If someone just wants to read about the subject, no problem.
Well, I take it back. There is a problem. Most of what has been written is real world info...Shaw's book, for example. Real world info is fine...every simmer ought to have a good background in it. But that's only half the issue. The other is bridging the gap between real world concepts and what can be replicated in a sim.
That's where Leon and I come in. We try to take the real world subject and write about it in sim terms. The trick is to know what can be replicated in a sim and what can't.
As someone once said, "the devil is in the details"...and that is where we run into problems with our book idea. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is not getting the simmer to understand "X" subject...instead, it's working around two major hurdles. One, the viewing system in question...some are better than others. Two, the AI/FM...it may well be that the AI/FM is not programmed to permit the execution of the subject.
For example, manual dive bombing. Some sims, particularly the WW2 sims, allow this to be flown. In RL, manual weapons delivery is a very complex problem...not one that many simmers would want to spend the time to understand (if you do, see my A2G series at SimHQ!). Most simmers just point their nose at the target and let fly. Sometimes they get a hit, sometimes they don't. I don't have a clue how sims program this, but I doubt that it's according to the physics involved.
This is just one of many examples that beg for a complete discussion...one that explains the theory and the execution in sim terms. This means illustrating the subject with screenshots...if the viewing system does not allow a good view of what is going on, then the issue is pretty much DOA. And if the AI/FM is not programmed "realistically", then all that theory goes down the drain too.
All of which is a long way of saying that we've had a problem getting our hands around the subject. We don't want to do just another regurgitation of what's already available. But to do what we want, in the detail that we want, is financially unworkable so far...meaning too much work, too little return.
But...we'll keep it in mind.
Andy
[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]
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Andy -
As you correctly point out, very few simmers have the luxury of your background and training.
So, why is it that some of your posts are so cryptic? Why do you introduce terms nobody has ever heard before... and then neglect to define them?
Vector Roll is merely the latest. You use it twice and claim that it will reduce both speed and closure, yet nowhere do you offer the least guidance on how this maneuver is performed, or what makes it different from a Barrell Roll or any other kind of roll.
Why? If your purpose is truly to reduce confusion and misinformation, why the abstruse terms and the lack of any explanation?
The entirety of your first post in this thread consists of:
They certainly are!!
The Lag Roll is used to control closure and/or range. A Barrel Roll is used to control aspect. These maneuvers require considerable differences in flight control/throttle input.
Andy
Which is somewhat less than helpful. All it really says is, "I know more than you do."
Guess what? When it comes to ACM, you probably do. Big surprise.
But, rather than share what you know, what those "differences in flight control/throttle input.", are, you sit there playing "I've Got A Seeeecret."
Do you even begin to understand how unhelpful and unnecessary that is?
I probably find it particularly annoying because I just lay out what I know (or don't know) and let anyone with better information refute me. That way, everybody learns something.
Hedging in regard to ACM is important, but one can also qualify statements to the point where they lose all meaning. Most of us are knowlegebale enough to know that everything carries an implied "sometimes but not always".
Here's an unvarnished truth for you though - Not only do none of us know it all, but none of us knows how to present what we know in a way that everyone can understand.
The more people there are contributing to the discussion, the more information comes to light, and the more likely it is that somebody will hit on something that makes sense to at least one other person.
Since humans seem to gain something from that kind of discussion and challenge to each other's assertions, I find that a "Good Thing". YMMV.
Dwarf
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Sorry if I confused you, Dwarf.
A Vector Roll is also known as a Lag Roll...not to be confused with a Lag Displacement Roll or a Barrel Roll. For more info, see Shaw.
Anyone know what "YMMV" stands for?
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Anyone know what "YMMV" stands for?
Andy
Your Mileage May Vary? ;)
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the barrell roll is about the only effective move i have when a spit or n1k is on my 109g2's tail and has an energy advantage. (i have been given suggestions but this is the only one that seems to work for me )
can't out-run them, can't out-turn them, somehow the barrel roll right at the planes turning stall limits seems to throw them - sometimes at least :)
ps - i find that people have a harder time following me through a barrell roll to the right than one to the left.
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Ozark
LOL!!
Thanks,
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Sorry if I confused you, Dwarf.
A Vector Roll is also known as a Lag Roll...not to be confused with a Lag Displacement Roll or a Barrel Roll. For more info, see Shaw.
Anyone know what "YMMV" stands for?
Andy
Sorry, OH GREAT GURU, but Shaw doesn't list anything for "lag-roll".
He does however talk about the "Lag Displcement Roll", and in spite of the fact that you've already indicated that Shaw is "acedemic", and "Real pilots know better"...
Page 67 middle of page "Lag Displacement Rolls"...
"In the lag-pursuit discussion ONE" (my emphasis ONE, (mustn't offend Andy with too few qualifiers) "method was mentioned for achieving a position inside the defender's turn at medium AOT [about 30 to 60 degrees AOT], when the range is only slighty greater than that desired for lag. This method involves relaxing the turn and allowing the nose to drift behind the target until approaching the desired lag position, remaining essentially in the same maneuver plane as the target until approaching the desired lag position. When he sees this maneuver, the bogey pilot may assume the attacker cannot match his turn performance and is about to overshoot. Such an assumption may induce the defender to reverse his turn direction to gain position advantage on the overshooting attacker - but this often presents the attacker with a gun-shot opportunity instead.
Other initial conditions require different tactics for reaching a lag postiton."
In Other Words (for the met inpaired), sometimes, the lag-displacement roll isn't the best tactic.
Due to your "advantaged" position as someone who has flown combat aircraft, it's really a shame that you have such a closed mind about anyone else's viewpoint, or the value of their regard for the situation you have chosen to pontificate upon.
I sincerely hope that you're man enough to change that.
Dwarf
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Originally posted by Dwarf:
I sincerely hope that you're man enough to change that.
Dwarf
Dwarf, has anyone ever told you that you are an amazinhunk?
Well you are! I sincerely believe you will never be man enough to change that.
Dweeb
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Dwarf
Keep reading.
>>Other initial conditions require different tactics for reaching a lag postiton."<<
The very next sentence introduces Shaw's discussion of the Lag Roll concept as compared to the Lag Displacement Roll. He first sets up the conditions of the BFM problem.
Then on page 68, second paragraph, he describes this maneuver as illustrated in Figure 2-5 called a "lag roll".
On page 69, third paragraph, he goes on to compare this to a "displacement roll".
Please note the variables in question are closure, range, and angle off...as I was commenting on to begin with.
As I said earlier...the problem with Shaw's book is that not everyone understands it...but thinks they do.
Andy
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dtango,
Thanks for starting this topic...I learned alot. The only problem is that...I'm just a hillbilly from Missouri and need someone to move their hands around in the air to "Show Me". So, I guess I'll have to go to the AH Con this year. ;)
I hope many of you folks will be there too. <S>
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Thanks Ozark. I can't say that I've digested everything said here! I was reading and re-reading the sections that Dwarf and Andy Bush were referring to in Shaw and it certainly is confusing to me.
At any rate, I've made peace with it for now in that I was really interested in the barrel-roll defense with a 2ndary interest in lag-rolls, displacement rolls, and lag displacement rolls, etc. --> all mean as about as much to me as a cinnamon roll!
When my brain is up to it I'll probably try and digest some of this and maybe post a new thread with my questions to get clarity on all this.
Tango, Corporal
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
-------Epictetus, Roman Stoic Philosopher-------
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Originally posted by dtango:
I typically end up doing either aileron rolls, making my barrel rolls too small where I can't force an overshoot, or making them too large/slow so that an attacker can follow or I burn up way too much E.
I'm looking for people's advice on the topic. What is the proper way to execute the manuever? What is a counter if you are an attacker?
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: dtango ][/QB]
Dtango:
A barrel roll isn't as easy a manuever as it may seem. It entails a gradual pulling back on the stick and gently pushing the stick to either the right or left. This gives the ship a slight climb and roll in the motion. It shouldnt result in the loss in alt if done properly and can result in the nme overshooting you. I use the move on the defense because it does spoil the aim of a pursuin g nme. It doesnt help much if yer being ganged though, and yer death is inevitable.
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dtango
I appreciate your frustration! This is not an easy subject...primarily because of the many variables at play.
To answer your question regarding using a rolling maneuver as a defensive move...this can be done in several ways. The objective is one or both of the following...deny the attacker a gun tracking solution, and/or force a longitudinal overshoot.
In order for the attacker to track you with his gunsight, he has to get into and stay in your plane of motion for the duration of his burst of fire. If you are rolling under moderate or greater G, this becomes very difficult since your rolling flight path is very hard to match in the level of detail needed to keep the gunsight pipper on target. For the time that you are in the roll, you are pretty much immune to a tracking shot.
The other objective is the longitudinal overshoot...a situation where the attacker loses control of his closure and literally blows by you...sorta like the Tom Cruise maneuver in TOPGUN (except it isn't flown that way!). The rolling defense does this one of two ways. First, the attacker focuses on following you in the roll and fails to note that his closure is increasing. The other and more difficult technique is to generate a gross flight path mismatch in the roll and thereby cause the attacker to fly past. Maneuvers of this type are known as High G Roll Over The Top and High G Roll Underneath.
In our simulations, these maneuvers are made difficult by two things. One, the sim FM may not model the flight control response needed to fly the maneuver (for example, the rolls over the top/underneath are essentially high G rudder rolls...if the sim does not model the rudder properly, then you will not be able to perform them). The second reason is that the sim views often do not permit the pilot to maintain a tally during the maneuver. Maintaining a tally under these conditions in real life is a challenge...in a sim, it's even harder. A well flown defensive maneuver isn't worth a hoot if the bandit can maneuver back into position in the time it takes for the defender to regain the tally.
Think it over and come back with any questions you might have.
Andy
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Andy,
Your explanations are great! I've learned a lot by reading them. I've checked out some of your pages on SimHQ.com and have found them quite informative. I only wish my brain had enough memory to store all of the information you provide and that my recall mechanisms were fast enough for me to use the information in real time ;)
It turns out that I have been doing something like what you guys have been describing (defensively) for quite a while now with very good resulsts. I've heard it called the "rolling reversal" by Knfe, my mentor. I presume this is the same thing, as I break into the opponent, then roll with rudder either "up" or "down" depending upon my mood and/or altitude, and watch him blow by and try to get a snap shot or just plain try to extend away and get set up for the next attack (or attacker). It's been very helpful to read about this from both the defender's point-of-view and the attacker's. I find I have the most problems with attackers who figure out what I'm doing and zoom high just before or just after they overshoot. Now I know why!
Thanks!
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Boy you guys sure help alot with your explanations. At least now I know why I am dieing and peoiple giggle when they seem me take off.
Here's my question on this issue. Even when I don't lose much altitude, it seems that I've bled off too much E pulling through the bottom half of the loop and if the attacker does overshoot, and then zoom climbs, as they seem always to do when I try this "rolling reversal", I end up beneath him with low e, and all he has to do is a zero g push over and dive to get back on my 6. So, what is the mistake I am making. Am I making the roll too tight. If it's not tight, then the attacked doesn't over shoort and can follow me through the maneuver?
Any thoughts?
:D