Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MiloMorai on December 16, 2004, 01:01:10 PM
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It seems due to pressure from an American manufacturer that any new a/c using a P&W engine will not be released by 1C/Maddox Games.
Take care with any new a/c you add to AH.
link to the SimHQ thread
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002241;p=1
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I have to say that is idiotic.
History does not belong to any private company. It belongs to us all.
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Sounds strange since they already modelled the P&W R2800 in their version of the F6F Hellcat.
MiG
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Watch the next patch that comes out Airboss... somethings may go missing.
-SW
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Hmmm, interesting quote from the developer at the above mentioned link...
"We will not add anymore any of the planes of Vougt, Republic and Grumman due to very serious reason. Even when some of them already was ready.
Trust me the reason is very serious and out of our control."
MiG
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Watch the next patch that comes out Airboss... somethings may go missing.
-SW
What a great reason not to patch the game or not to purchase future releases. I wonder what really happened.
MiG
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Originally posted by CMC Airboss
Sounds strange since they already modelled the P&W R2800 in their version of the F6F Hellcat.
MiG
Yes and the P-47D is already in the game. What it seems is that it effects any NEW a/c releases. To use an old expression, 'the barn gate is now being closed'.
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History does not belong to any private company. It belongs to us all.
Unless someone copyrights a section of history. Welcome to 21st century capitalism a-la-"Dilbert".
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That's Il-2 right?
If so, who cares,,,,,it's too mushy anyway...
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What makes you think Pratt&Whitney would grant a waiver for HTC, when they did that to 1C:Maddox?
Ofcourse, that's assuming if P&W really was behind all that.
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I doubt it was P&W, I actually don't know how they arrived at that conclusion seeing as how the representation of the P&W engines are questionable at best.
More than likely I'd be looking at the aircraft mfgs, and who they currently are. Afterall, it's all American planes - not just P&W powered ones.
-SW
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Originally posted by Angus
That's Il-2 right?
If so, who cares,,,,,it's too mushy anyway...
Angus, Strike Fighters had to remove the F-104 from their 'game'. Rumor has it that MS canned their FS4 due to legalities about the a/c that were to be in it.
And just to show how far it can go, a model manufacture stopped making Boeing a/c and instead manfuactured their competitors a/c.
Union Pacific chages a licensing fee for model train manufacurers that use ANY of the company logos on the rolling stock/engines.
That is just some examples.
Go read the thread.
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It's pretty serious in terms of what types of games and sims develop in the future.
Personally I could care less about any US plane. Now if they start messing the Messer's and Focke-Wolf's or even Spits and the like I may get worried. Maybe future games will be free of allied farmboi's. We can only hope...
UBI soft probably caved to the pressure. Oleg has in a thread on UBI that says:
This and several others probably will be done, but only on CD for Russian version and market and only for a merged install.
I'm sorry to tell it isn't for the rest of the world.
If only Publisher will be interested in add-ons that we ordered to complete by third party for only Russian market (new maps, new planes, new ground vehicles, etc), then we may do multilanguage version for the rest of the world.
However part of these things will be also present in Western version for free.
Now you can decifer what Oleg means but it seems to me UBI isn't interested in further add-ons for Il2 (whether that be based on pressure from Ami aircraft manufacturer's or the fact UBI didn't make enough of a profit on the past 2 IL2 add-ons). He may get around it by offering the Ami planes for free. Who knows...
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Seems to me that the PR fall out would be worse for an A/C mfg company if they played this game.... who knows.
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Nope all the noise from the flight sim communtiy directed at them could do the reverse by demonstrating the size of the market. It may be a niche market compared to other game types but its still large enough for them to claim a small royalty on every aircraft they hold the rights to.
HT may want to put them p38s on hold!!!
:p
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Originally posted by Wotan
Nope all the noise from the flight sim communtiy directed at them could do the reverse by demonstrating the size of the market. It may be a niche market compared to other game types but its still large enough for them to claim a small royalty on every aircraft they hold the rights to.
HT may want to put them p38s on hold!!!
:p
last I checked, most WW2 a/c mfg's have long since given any concern over the use of anything associated with them. Hell, my corporate logo has the likeness of an F4u and a 38 in it, and both Vought and Lockheed know it's in there. They could care less, and have actually begged us to look at some of our restoration processes...
My bet is this is something as stupid as Ubi not wanting to pay the price to continue add ons, or there is a copyright infringement that exists between the renderings of the aircraft and someone else's code.... thats more likely the problem.
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What a bunch of BS! If the aircraft manufacturers are behind this it is rediculous. Greedy fks! As if they don't make enough money.
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Well if you believe what folks say on the intardnet (like I was killed in a car accident after getting bit by a scorpion; but now I am back, resurrected if you will) then read this thread:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002248
Like I said who knows, its not like anything released in Russian won't be on a 1000 thousand web sites as a 'free download' or at the very least 1000 chinese web sites...
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It would be funny if the manufacturers were pissed about the poor* modeling of their respective aircraft.
* I don't actually know whether Il2 has these P&W aircraft modeled poorly or not.
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Well, I dunno... but to cancel all American planes but leave the rest open, that doesn't indicate to me UBI troubles with selling PF.
-SW
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I heard something similar about this in the plastic model kit community.
Though I can't remember what it was exactly one of the aircraft producers wanted to charge royalties to a model company for building a model kit of their aircraft!
I am with the above that this seems like a really "SILLY ASS" thing to do as flight sims, model kits, games, toys, etc. does nothing by get FREE advertising for the particular aircraft company. Seems to me they would try cultivate this as much as they can by providing information (Long as it isn't classified in any way).
I can't see what they could carp about as they pattent on about every piece of WW2 aircraft has long since expired.
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I do know that if they dont defend their copyrights, they are deemed to have expired.
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Check this link out and tell me I am corect in the understanding that this whole thing is BS based on this passage:
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/25853.html
"On Dec 8 the U.S. Supreme Court decided, 9-0, that plaintiffs in trademark disputes bear the entire obligation to show how the defendants product descriptions, based on fair use, confuse consumers about the originating company.
IOW, it strikes a massive blow on behalf of common sense: the burden of proof now falls upon the plaintiff to show (a) consumers are confused and easily mistake goods from company ABC to be from company DEF and (b) economic harm has occured as a result.
The case originated over descriptive text that included a trademarked phrase. The defendants have won.
What it means to folks like us here is if you write "Not affiliated with the Union Pacific Railroad or General Motors Corporations, or the transportation industry in any way" you've erected a fairly good defense against confusion when you go on to describe your product as "An artistic intrepretation represented by an electronic image of a locomotive produced by General Motors from 1959 to 1967 as used by the Union Pacific RR in 1965, for use only as an add-on enhancement to MSTS".
Because such a description of your product is not only completely accurate but has established the nature of the product and the marketplace in which the product is distributed, both of which are not really relevant to the mentioned corporations, their marks, or their products.
See: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-409
The ruling does not change any legal understanding about the validity of registered trademarks, the plaintiff's use of economic harm actually done to over-ride a fair use defense, or the ability of the plaintiff to show overwhelming evidence of priviledged prior use in the same markets to overturn a fair-use defense.
Dave Nelson
WP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950"
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There is an opinion that Oleg's reason is that Ubi makes him focus on work for BoB project.
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002250
I don't have enough time to watch this stuff, some of you know - i have my own reasons to be interested in this story....
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Well Brady looks to me that is a good get out of jail free card as long as a similar phrase describing your product is included.
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The latest word circling around is as follows:
It seems that Northrop/Grumman demanded payment for trademark licensing fees from IC Maddox.
IC Maddox would not or could not pay so the publisher and distributer, UBI, got involved and paid the fees with out a fight.
UBI then said to IC Maddox that UBI would re-coop these licensing fees from future payments to IC Maddox from the sales of IC Maddox games.
Northrop/Grumman already got paid. The fight between IC Maddox and Northrop/Grumman is over, Northrop/Grumman won out by pressuring UBI.
IC Maddox is left in the position of arguing with UBI over the fees and thus risk losing them as the distributer and publisher of future IC Maddox games or just accepting UBI's terms.
IC Maddox can't afford to lose its distributer nor can it afford to pay out any future licensing fees to Northrop/Grumman.
IC Maddox has no choice but to exclude Northrop/Grumman aircraft from any future patches or add-ons. The Northrop/Grumman aircraft already in the game have been paid for.
The issue also arises in how much money is UBI willing to put out for future FB/AEP/PF add-ons. With out funding for future add-on development IC Maddox may just have to move on with BoB. There's has been no talk of the 'upcoming' patch and there have been no "Friday Development Updates" over the last few weeks.
I wouldn't swear that nay of the above quote is correct. Take it with a grain of salt...
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So what your saying is UBI rolled over apparently without a fight or even researching into the legalities of the claim ?
They appear to have sold Oleg down the river, on the grounds that if we pay Northrop its no skin off our nose we will just charge it to Oleg.
UBI is a french company correct ?
Well thats a shame because this will only reinforce a lot of peoples views.
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Also, if you read the entire thread at SimHQ, it was was a stated opinion by people who understood the situation fairly well that UBI had a good case to fight this but simply chose not to, deciding the legal fees weren't worth the gain. I also believe this had more to do with the aircraft depicted on the boxes of the IL2 series games, and less with the modelling of a/c within the game (at least as far as getting them noticed by Northrop/Grumman anyway). They already had a shaky case to start with, not sure how much of a legal leg they would have to stand on with a game like Aces High (where there is no "box", and thus very little advertising artwork). Their arguments would have to be based almost solely on ingame renderings of a/c (IMHO). Since plane skins are not "generic" and are based on historic planes that celebrate the pilot or the squadron, and not just the ride, I'd think they have a tough battle to prove TM infringement. Also, HT doesn't use company names in identifying a/c, only the military designations and/or "nicknames" (at least not in the game).
Just my .02 worth.
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Sounds like Star's got it.
Seems to me that UBI didn't pay royalties to the various A/C companies for putting their planes on the Il-2 boxes. The companies could also be upset that they didn't model their aircraft correctly... Either way, it's a case against UBI, not HTC.
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If this was about the Box, then you just remove the plane from the box and not from the game. There has to be something more to it.
Honestly if I knew all of this I would have passed on PF.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
So what your saying is UBI rolled over apparently without a fight or even researching into the legalities of the claim ?
They appear to have sold Oleg down the river, on the grounds that if we pay Northrop its no skin off our nose we will just charge it to Oleg.
UBI is a french company correct ?
Well thats a shame because this will only reinforce a lot of peoples views.
So let me see if I get this straight: An American company threatens to sue a French company if they don't pay licence fees. The claim is nonsense, but the French company decide it is less of a hassle to simply pay the fees than to go to court. The French company will of course not have anything more to do with the American company or any of their products/labels.
And all this is of course the fault of the French company ... right?
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The back of the box lists all of the manufacturers names. That was a bad idea.
Instead of F6F Hellcat I think it says Grumman F6F Hellcat.
The company names are still justifiably copyrighted and the companies cant have other companies using them in promotional material.
This is a UBI soft screwup. I cant believe they would pass the loss along to Oleg.
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Actually Oleg has come out in defense of UBI saying they did what they were supposed to. Remember PF started out as a complete 3rd party add-on. As it turned out it was a flop in that the Oleg had to end up taking control over it and working hard to get out what there was. The plan was to use the community modellers to do the 3d modelling. Well apparently most of those guys couldn't get it right.
But whatever the reason or reasons there will be no more Northrop/Grumman aircraft added to FB/AEP/PF...
Atleast out side of the Russian market...
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Pongo, if that's the case then I don't see why Maddox won't model certain planes in the future. I think Northrop is actually claiming a trademark on the aircraft designations, visuals and history.
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Hmm the designations i believe were named by the military ?
Same plane different airforces = different designation/name.
Again visuals as regarding paint schemes would belong to the military surely.
I would be doubtful that any company could trademark "history".
Where they probably did go wrong was naming the company that designed the aircraft as well as using the military designation.
Besides i thought the article referred to earlier sort of shot down any claim anyway.
UBI just did not have the balls to fight it and decided to lumber Oleg with the bill.
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If so then why won't Maddox model these aircraft in the future? All he would need to do is not mention the manufacturer. This is clearly not the case since Oleg has stated that he won't model these planes in the future for serious reasons.
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UB probably agreed to that as well to avoid trouble.
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My say on the matter is simply that its a bunch of BS. Multi-billion dollar companies of the likes of Northrop are just being stuck up and tight-arsed. They need to realize that the cold war is waaayyy over and get a clue. Oleg would be doing them a HUGE favor in presenting those A/C in their hay day. I seeem to remember companies like EA making titles like "Aces Over the Pacific" and "Aces Over Europe" and not having ANY trouble with copyrights. Hell, the "Aces over the Pacific" box had artwork featuring a VF-17 F4U chasing a B5N "Kate". The book that accompanied the game had stats and history on EVERY a/c in the game. REguardless of what ACTUALLY is going on and whether ot not all this is %100 factual. It is still a big load of BS. IL-2 is probably one of the BEST WW2 sims out there and it's a shame someone is trying to put a halt to Oleg's work. :mad: :mad: :mad:
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I just bought PF. On the box there is a burning Japanese CV, a burning Avenger and a Zeke. If that is all it took for Northrop to get all pissy then as the Irish say ... shreck them.
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Maybe Oleg just doesn't want to model US planes.
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[sarcasm] Yes I'm sure that's it. [/sarcasm]
He has already stated that he will model US planes, even Northrop ones, but they will only get released in Russia.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If so then why won't Maddox model these aircraft in the future? All he would need to do is not mention the manufacturer. This is clearly not the case since Oleg has stated that he won't model these planes in the future for serious reasons.
Pacific Fighter was a concept brought to Oleg by 3rd parties. Oleg never planned on doing the Pacific. Who's responsible for printing the box? UBI? IC Maddox? the 3rd party?
To put more Northrop Grumman planes will cost him more in fees. He's not going to do it.
FB/AEP/PF has 200 planes in it, its not like the P47N and F4U-4 represent a huge whole in the plane set. They just the pets of allied superhero wannabe farm bois. :p
FYI:
This type of thing isn't new.
Here's a link to a '97 article:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,4317,00.html
Other games like racing games and FPS had to come up with creative 'naming' to avoid trademark violations.
UBI has paid the fees, Oleg said UBI handled it correctly. I am sure UBI has better lawyers then most of us who post on these forums. Oleg has said in time he may reveal the whole story.
The buttom line is no new Northrop/Grumman aircraft will be introduced into FB/AEP/PF outside the Russina market.
And frankly I could careless...
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You couldn't care less ...
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About farm boi planes...
The rest is interesting. but not 'new'...
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Navy planes ???
That's so "village people" :D
Im already running :p