Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Urchin on December 18, 2004, 11:16:36 AM
-
Am I wrong, or is this tank almost completely worthless? It doesn't seem to have a chance against a Panzer Iv, although if you run into someone extraordinarily incompetent (i.e. someone that can't find you in the 40 seconds it takes you to fire 3 shots to kill him) you can occasionally kill one.
What I see as the weak points
1. A extraordinarily crappy gun. Granted I'm no super tank ace.. but I had AP rounds richocheting off the sides of Panzer IVs inside of 800 yards.
2. Rate of fire is ~5-6 shots a minute... enough said.
3. Armor seems weak, typically one hit will knock out the turret from the front, at my typical engagement range of 800-1200 yards. Of course, after the one hit that disables the turret, I'll get hit 5,6,7,8 and up times with no damage. That has to be frustrating for them... it is frustrating for me and I'm on the recieving end.
The strong points..
1. It a little bit faster than the Panzer IV.
Of course, this just means you can get back to get killed again a little quicker, so it isn't really a strong point.
So am I completely off base? Popular opinion seems to agree with my assessment of the T-34 as being pretty worthless, it has less than 10% of the Panzer IVs kills... and it should still be new enough to have some kind of "novelty" factor.
I'd love to have a viable alternative to the Panzer, but it seems we don't have one yet. The M-8 is less than completely worthless, if that is possible, and the T-34 doesn't seem much better.
-
I've been popping quite a few Panzers with it.
But in RL, did it not mount HE shells also?
-
0 and 3 vs Tigers, the T34 is unable to get through the armor at any range except about 3 inches, and even then it has to be the back turret.
13 and 10 vs Panzer in it, but 6 of those kills were against the same clueless guy who would let me shoot him 3 or 4 times until a round finally got through and did something (i.e. sit there for 45 seconds until he died). So against normal people I've got a losing record vs Panzers too.
I simply can't fathom why we keep getting completely worthless GVs. Lets get something that ISN'T Panzer IV bait. Maybe that way we'd have a itsy bitsy bit of variety. Doesn't have to be a clone of the Panzer IV, but our alternatives right now can be likened to a Palestinian throwing rocks at Isreali tanks.
It is **** like this that burns me out of AH more than anything. I'd love to play around in tanks, but I don't want to have to drive the same tank over and over again because the other choices are completely moronic.
-
T34 has several advantages over Pz4:
Its 10mph faster, in other words its some 40% faster..
It has much faster turret traverse.
It has much much better frontal and side armor. I have had Pz4 shots bounce off T34 turret sides at 20 feet.
Disadvantages are:
Weaker gun.
Half the rate of fire.
-
I guess I must have selected the gimped T-34 in the hangar then, since practically every shot that hit the front of my turret inside of 2000 yards killed it.
I'm just not seeing it. The T-34 is fodder, plain and simple.
-
I've popped a few Panzers in the first shot actually.
-
T34 defintely has better turret front armor than Pz4. Just test T34 firing on Pz4 turret front and then T34 firing on Pz4 turret front.
The only real issue in your whine here Urchin is the relative firepower of T34 vs Pz4 since T34 is clearly superior in every other respect.
-
Lol... score one point for the Grunherzleader!
Current Tour... Groinhurts is 5 and 7 vs the Panzer IV in the T-34/
Last Tour.. Groinhurts is 0 and 2 ..
So.. since the thing has been introduced you are a whopping 5 and 9 vs the Panzer IV in it.
I see you are having a lot of luck with your "clearly superior" tank against the Panzer.. could you maybe share the secrets of your success with me?
I'm not sure what the "real issue" with you is... but you are clearly talking out of your ass.
So how about you go get some knowledge of what the hell you are talking about before you say I don't.
How's that sound?
-
Here are my words:
"The only real issue in your whine here Urchin is the relative firepower of T34 vs Pz4 since T34 is clearly superior in every other respect."
Note how I said that the T34 is clearly superior in every way other than firepower. I know that you can read so I'll have to assume that your last post full of insults and nonsense was just hyperbole drawn out of frustration.
Here, again, is the summary.
T34 is 40% faster.
T34 has much thicker side armor and it is heavily sloped.
T34 has heavily sloped glacis so its better from front.
T34 has stronger turret front armor.
T34 has much stronger turret side armor.
Its only weakness vs Pz4 is firepower.
As for your little stats hunting trip... I use the T34 to defeat spawn campers, its greatly superior armor and fast turret traverse are perfect for the job. Naturally this will give me crappy k/d... I use the Pz4 in general figts because I prefere the better firepower.
So you have a nice choice here. A slower more weekly armored tank with a strong gun in Pz4 or a much faster much better armored tank with weaker firepower in the T34. I'd say that's a fine choice.
The T34 is better in every way save firepower. Say that with me Urchin, T34 is better in every way save firepower...
The only next step when it comes to T34 is the T34/85. This model would add a gun that had about the same or slightly greater firepower as Pz4 and similar ROF. It would also have thicker turret front armor to about Tiger 1 levels, turret side armor woulds now be about 90mm which is thicker than Tiger I, and it would be just as fast as the current T34. In other words there would be no reason whatsover to drive Pz4, as every single advantage would shift to T34 and some of its current advantages in armor would increase significantly.
So until Panther comes you are stuck with a 76mm armed T34 and the current Pz4...
-
i agree! the ABSOLUTE only way to not get killed is if there is nobody around, or you can outrun them, etc. plus, it has no AA! (which is good cuz I like to kill em in the spit)
-
Originally posted by ocdude
i agree! the ABSOLUTE only way to not get killed is if there is nobody around, or you can outrun them, etc. plus, it has no AA! (which is good cuz I like to kill em in the spit)
The Pz4 7.92mm pintle gun is useless as an air defense gun, and trust me I know from attacking many panzer in my Il2 and shooting at Il2 from panzer, yea you might get his oil or maybe radiotor but he will still get you as IL2 windscreen does not foul from oil leaks. To actually kill airplanes its much more productive to use the main gun spotted by the coaxial MG...
-
Chill guys, i found the sweetspot for panz and then i can kill-run-manuver with "ease" :)
-
If I can manuever for a side shot within around 1200 yards I can usually kill a Panzer in one hit. If I hit it in the side, it'll ricochet off the side turret.
Hitting the front turret sometimes knocks out the turret, sometimes it ricochets off. From the same range, the Panzer IV will knock out the T34s turret just about every time.. had one hit my turret 4 times in a row, knocking it out all 4 times (I had supplies, he didn't so it was kind of lopsided) before I knocked out his turret.
Oh, and Groinhurts... you are saying that the T34 is "superior in every way other than firepower".. well.. apparently firepower matters more than superiority in every other category, huh?
I know, I know... Mr. "The T-34 is awesome and I kill **** in it like a ninja.. but don't you dare throw my .5 k/d back in the face of my ridiculous argument", I must have offended you by pointing out the fact that not only do you not have hardly any experience in the T-34. what experience you do have is hardly enlightening.
That isn't an "insult" or a "whine" or anything other than the truth. Sorry it is apparently to harsh for you.
-
I use the T34 exclusively. In my experience: the T34 can do no damage to a Tiger at any range for any amount of fire... ever. I have also not been able to kill Panzers at any range unless I hit the turret at very close range, say less than 1K. In that case, I very often kill panzers in one shot- I don't know why one shot to the turret kills the whole tank when one shot from another panzer to a panzer turret usually kills only the turret. Against other T34s you are in for a very very long fight, even at point blank range. Go for the track area and you can kill other T34s (at point blank range of course). Never engage anything at long range; it will just point out your position. You must sneak your T34 to less than 1K. Of course, this is next to impossible, so I die repeatedly.
The AH T34 is modeled as pretty much useless (and that includes it's terrible performance on bumpy ground or up hills). I suspect they have chosen to give us the early BR-350A AP round instead of the BR-350P AP sabot round that was introduced at the same time as the Panzer IVH just to take on that tanks thicker armor.
715
-
T-34s are immune from all base acks fired towards it front. It makes a great field/facility attacker. You can virtually ignore the need to bring down the player manned 37mm and just apporach the VH and set up a VH spawncamping.
Ofcourse, that is assuming you have the right angles.
-
"The Pz4 7.92mm pintle gun is useless as an air defense gun"
I disagree. I killed many a plene with that ping-pong thingie.
Of course they are reying to penetrate armour while I go for their wings or engine, hehe.
(I usually try to turn my tank towards them, so it's vs front armour)
Anyway, T34's are quite good on the deacking side.
How about some HE's?
-
The T-34 has HE rounds available. Can't speak for how good they are, I've always been killed before I get a chance to use them.
-
The T-34/76D that we have should be markedly inferior to the Panzer IV H. That it is bears out HTC's modeling.
If they'd wanted a more even fight, but a bit in the T-34's advantage, they would have added the T-34/85.
-
I pictured the T34/85 as being clearly the better tank to include in AH vs the T34/76 43.
But I didnt envision the T34 getting quite so much frontal armour or quite such a fast turrent traverse or quite so much speed. All are signifigantly better then they are rated in other games.(but all tanks are too resistant to AT fire in Aces High.
Throw in the increadably generous drivers view and I guess it was better to have this model then the T34/85 cause with the full ROF of the 85 and its better gun it would indeed dominate the Panzer IVH
The whole tank battle thing in AH often comes down to knowing the sweet spot to shoot at a given vehicle. From any place but the sweet spot, even from the rear or side most of the tanks seem to often be invincible
-
Could someone list each GV's sweet spot? Thin skinned are not neccessary, but I dont know where to hit the Tiger or Panzer IV, I just shoot *at* them and hope they die. :)
-
To the best of my knowledge...
In an M8
Vs a Panzer IV:
Front: Front of the turret will disable the turret in one hit (aim for the middle) at a decent range (~1000) yards.
Side: I haven't had much luck... firing at the back of the side will sometimes disable the engine, if you have already knocked out the turret you'll usually get an assist when some tank finishes off the guy.
Back: Back of the turret will knock out the turret, back of the body will knock out the engine (inside of about 500 yards, which is the only back shots I've ever taken)
Vs a Tiger
The Tiger is immune to the M8, you can't damage it from any side at any distance
Vs a T-34
I haven't fought a T-34 in a M8, so I can't say. Odds are good the M8 won't do much to it.
In a T-34
Vs a Panzer IV: Hitting the front of the turret will disable the turret at 800-1200 yards. Just aim at the middle.
Hitting one in the side of the body will usually kill one in one hit from 800 yards in, hitting the side of the turret usually ricochets off.
Hitting the back of the turret killed the tank in one hit the only time I've done it.
Vs a Tiger
The Tiger is basically immune to the T-34.. in the DA some guy let me sit 5 yards behind him and it took about 10 shots to knock the turret out (hitting the rear turret), the rounds ricochet off every other surface at every range.
Vs a T-34
Haven't done this much.. but the T-34 appears pretty much immune to other T-34s. I tracked one and then backed up when I drove up next to one headed towards me (came over a hill and there he was). I used the coax gun to track him, the HE round I fired there had no effect. All his rounds (all both of them) ricocheted off the front armor of my tank)
In a Panzer IV
Vs a Panzer IV
Again, hitting the front of the turret will knock out the gun, usually hitting the front by the driver will kill the tank (the little vision slit, aim there)
Aiming at the front of the side will usually kill the tank, aiming at the back of the side will kill the engine.
From the back, hitting the rear turret will disable the turret, hitting the body will kill the engine (and the tank, usually) .
Vs a Tiger
I'm sure someone better in tanks can tell you this.. I've killed them before by hitting them by the driver from the front, and you can disable their turret by hitting it, but it is by no means a sure deal.
Vs a T-34
Side shots work very well from 1200-1600 yards, usually first shot will kill the turret and second shot will kill the tank.
Rear shots again from very long ranges will kill a T-34 in one hit (in my experience, very long range is ~1600 yards)
From the front, it is hit and miss. Most time if I get hit in the turret from the front at 800-1000 yards I lose the turret. Longer ranges than that and it usually ricochets off. I had one Panzer bushwhack me as I killed his buddy, he came up over a hill and fired on me frontally from about 100 yards and it richocheted off.. so there isn't a guarantee.
I tend to lose my turret very easily in the T-34. but then survive a pounding that would make someone playing over a rusty can & string connection proud (5-6 hits for no damage, till I drive away).
Best advice I can give from the T-34 perspective is aim for the turret first no matter which angle you are firing from, it seems the easiest part to get through.
Any tank Vs an M8..
Hit it anywhere. Hell, use HE rounds, then you don't even have to hit it, just get close.
-
I told you why and when I use T34 Urchin. I use it when its strength in armor and turet traverse are more important. I use pz4 when its strength in firepower is more important to me. I also clearly explained my statement that T34 is vastyly superior in every way other than relative firepower compared to Pz4.
Those are all facts, the rest is just your BS and anger about being shown to be wrong here...
"3. Armor seems weak"
When in fact T34 has much thicker turrent front armor than Pz4. You cant knock out T34 turret front in a T34, but you can knock out Pz4 turret front from a T34. That settles the issue, T34 has much thicker turret front armor, and also glacus armor and side armor...
The only issue is relative firepower between the two tanks. We agree that Pz4 obviousaly has the better gun, duh, thats perfectly historical, but you need to argue and make the T34 seem to be deficient in other respects, which it is clearly not.
T34 IS better in every way excewpt firepower. Do you deny that? If you do deny it, please show me that T34 is:
Slower.
More weakly armored anywhere a Tank round would hit.
Slower turret traverse.
You will not shopw that because its not true, because T34 is clearly better in those ways, meaning not firepower...
What you seem to want, what you seem to be whinig about is wanting some sort of supertank thays superior to Panzer4 in every way and is free of perk cost - meaning that you wont have to makle choice of relative strengths and weakneses... Well you wont get it until more tanks are added to balance the all around fights...
-
T34 has only one frontal armor weakspot thats vulnerable to fire from other T34s, even at the closest ranges.
=====
However I wont write here to tell you what it is and will let Urchin tell you what it is from his vast experience with the new tanks.. Surely he knows...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
-
T-34/85
(http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t34_85/t34_85b.gif)
(http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t34_85/t34_85a.gif)
T-34/76
(http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t34_76/t34_13.gif)
(http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t34_76/t34_12.gif)
both from http://www.battlefield.ru/map.html
PzKpfw IV Ausf. H
ARMOR PROTECTION
Armor Detail - Front - Side - Rear - Top/Bottom
Hull - 80mm@76° - 30mm@90° - 20mm@82° - 10mm@0°
Superstructure - 80mm@80° - 30mm@90° - 20mm@79° - 12mm@0-5°
Turret - 50mm@80° - 30mm@64° - 30mm@75° - 15mm@0-7°
Mantlet - 50mm@60-90°
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
T34 IS better in every way excewpt firepower. Do you deny that? If you do deny it, please show me that T34 is:
Slower.
More weakly armored anywhere a Tank round would hit.
Slower turret traverse.
You will not show that because its not true, because T34 is clearly better in those ways, meaning not firepower...
What you seem to want, what you seem to be whinig about is wanting some sort of supertank thats superior to Panzer4 in every way and is free of perk cost - meaning that you wont have to makle choice of relative strengths and weakneses... Well you wont get it until more tanks are added to balance the all around fights...
Slower: yes, way slower going up hill or across "bumpy" ground. It is almost immovable on slightly uphill bumpy ground.
More weakly armored: rounds bounce off the front much more often than Panzers, but other hits still kill the T34 quickly.
Slower turret traverse: no, but who cares when rounds from your T34 bounce off pretty much anything at point blank range and it takes the better part of a week to reload.
I do not believe people want a super tank vastly superior to the Panzer IV-H: they want a tank that has a reasonable chance against a Panzer, like the historical T34-76 did. They don't want something that is basically futile, which is what they got.
-
You kids need to give up your 1941 fantasies about T34 uberness and invincibility born out of it facing short 50mm armed Pz3 and tepid 75/L24 armed Pz4s...
Its very fast, has great armor but the gun is weak compared to long 75mm armed Pz4. The 76mm was a great gun in 1940 and 1941 not so great in 42 and 43 - but its what they had.. DEAL WITH IT, its the way it was.
T34/76 was not some invincible death dealing monster by mid 1942, heck the russians wanted to replace it with a new design even then but couldnt afford the production interuption...
What you guys obviously want or expected is a T34 with equal firepower to Panzer 4. Thats not what T34/76 is or ever was and thats not waht you get.
The T34 you expected is essentially a 1944 model T34/85, which would make the Panzer4 utterly useless in AH as the T34 would hold all the cards now... In other words there would be no choice, you would simply take the t34/85 because irt would be better in every single way. What you have now is a choce. Take speed and armor or take firepower. Both have their uses at different times.
Pyro says an 85 will be here when Panther comes, at which point I'm surte all you will cry that Panther side armor is too weak comared to T34/85 side armor - but I will be here then to set you straight too...
As for this T34 weak armor myth compare the armor figures Milo posted and learn something for once, please....
The only issue is realtive firepower, not armor - as the T34 is clearly better armored all around.
And once again, jusat like I said in my first post: T34/76 is faster and much better armored than Pz4H. Pz4H has better overall firepower. Your choice as what u want...
This was true in WW2, this is true in AH2, this was true when I first wrote it in this retarted thread and it will be true for all time no matter how much you babies whine about it unless HTC changes something significantly...
DEAL WITH IT
-
(http://www.mc-modellbau.de/T-34-55.JPG)
Here is your fantasy T34... :rolleyes:
-
GRUNHERZ,
Actually the T-34/76D performs exactly like many (most?) of us expected.
As to your comments about the T-34/85, Panzer IV H and AH, well, the same can be said for aircraft. Why even bother having the La-5FN? The La-7 is better in all ways.
Now the problem that I have with the T-34/76 vs. the Panzer IV H is that it is not a remotely fair or fun fight for the T-34/76D. From a gameplay standpoint the Panzer IV H vs the T-34/85 would be more enjoyable because both tanks can kill eachother. The T-34.85 would have the advantage, and thus the lower ENY, but it would not be as lopsided as the Panzer IV H vs. the T-34/76D.
-
T34/85 vs pz4 would be somewhat "fair" like Pz4 vs tiger 1 is "fair". Except that T34/85 is much faster and has much faster turret traverse...
No, the T34/76 is not performing as most expected, hence the whines. They are all crying because the gun is not as strong as pz4s - the gun that you have been used to for so many years...
The T34/76 can kill the Pz4, the Pz4 turret front is only 50mm VERTICAL! Thats effectivly thinner than T34 side armor.. GET THAT cry babies, Pz4 turret frontal armor is weaker than T34 side armor - oh the tragedy of this retarded threwad...
You are all just pissed because T34 does not have long range power of the Pz4 gun - the gun you have gotten used to killing Pz4s with for sooo long - you are all spoiled on this powerful set of German guns from Pz4 and Tiger 1.
So of course you ask for the T34/85 which not only gives T34 the firepower advantage or at least equality to pz4 but also significantly improves its armor advantage to where Pz4 has to fight it pretty much like a Tiger I..
Hillarious...
-
GRUN,
Please try not to tell me that what I expected out of the T-34/76D is different than what we have. Go back and look at my posts and Pongo's posts about it before it was introduced. Pyro chastised me for being so pesimistic about it.
The T-34/76D is fine for what it is. It simply isn't any fun to go up against Panzer IV Hs in, and Tigers are completely immune. I hit a Tiger in the rear hull and rear turret from less than 5ft with about 10 rounds and got jack all. Literally no damage to the Tiger I. That isn't fun.
Every time I've been hit by a Panzer IV H or a Tiger I in the T-34 it has been an instant trip back to the tower.
I certainly did not expect a wonder weapon out of the T-34/76D. Some people did, I recall laughing at people who even in the week before v2.01 was released were wondering if the T-34/76D would be perked. I posted a very similar arguement about the differnece between the 75mm L24 on the Panzer IV Ds that thw T-34/76s built their reputations on and the 75mm L48 gun that the Panzer VI H has. Remember, the 75mm L48 is a better gun than the 85mm gun on the T-34/85. It has higher penetration.
-
I didnt say you I said most.. Please read. :)
T34/76:
Better armor and better speed.
Panzer IVH:
Better firepower.
It's clearly not an issue of inaccurate modeling, this is how they were in RL. Thats what we have in AH2, get used to the choices and use them appropriately. Everyting else is just whines.
-
From what I have read the PANZER IVH's 75mm (L42 ?) gun was FAR superior to any other 75mm tank gun fielded by the Allies except for maybe the 76mm on the Sherman Firefly.
Even against the later war T34's with the 85mm gun it could still hold it's own in a tank duel though the IVH's non-sloped armor couldn't stand up as well. One reason for the extra "Side Skirts" hung on the IVH.
The T34/76 real strength was in speed and numbers. Same as the American Sherman. It's 76mm gun was short barreled and although serviceable - wasn't the best. Even after the T34 was upgraded to the 85mm gun it still wasn't in a class with the Panther's 75mm or the 88mm's of the Germans.
Brady and I used to argue about which one would be best the T34/76 or T34/85. My big issue about the T34 is not it's gun (Which does seem a little slow to reload) but with it's transmission which is practially USELESS! Very hard to shift for different terrain. Any of you Russian folks want to weigh in on this? Was the T34 this big a pig? Always thought it handled pretty well over the turff.
Also IMO a light MG should have been stuck on top. Either that or be able to carry troops to jump off and fight. :D
-
No Groinhurts.... I'm not asking for one tank to completely dominate the other. I'm asking for two tanks that are roughly equal.
As far as your argument for "better armor vs better gun" goes.. it sounds nice, except it isn't really applicable since the "better gun" goes through the "better armor" without much trouble.
I'm definately no tank expert, like you are Groin, but it doesn't seem to me that the "better armor" is much better anyway, according to those charts that were posted
Looks like the T-34 has 45mm on the front hull, the Panzer IV has 80mm, the T-34s front turret has 40mm, the Panzer IVs has 50mm.
And that is on the front, where you said the disparity is greatest in favor of the T-34. Granted, having anywhere from 50% to 80% of the Panzer IVs armor is threatening, especially given the outstanding speed differential in favor of the T-34. Well, at least as you are talking about on-road, as soon as you get off road the T-34 handles hills about as well as the M-8, and will soon be staring at the Panzer IV's ass.
From an "off-topic" standpoint your antipathy for the T-34 and anyone who would dare use it makes perfect sense, but I'm trying to keep this in an in-game sort of context.
So, your argument is that they are "different, but equal"..
How do these numbers support that argument?
Current Tour[/i]
Panzer IV
33185 Kills / 31901 Deaths (K/D 1.04)
Vs Tiger 652 Kills / 6197 Deaths (K/D .105)
Vs T-34 2986 Kills / 1374 Deaths (K/D 2.17)
T-34
2503 Kills / 4781 Deaths (K/D .523)
Vs Tiger 31 Kills / 1179 Deaths (K/D .026)
Last Tour[/i]
Panzer IV
48766 Kills / 48718 Deaths (K/D 1.00)
Vs Tiger 1033 Kills / 10425 Deaths (K/D .099 )
Vs T-34 4398 Kills / 2477 Deaths (K/D 1.77)
T-34
5624 Kills / 8758 Deaths (K/D .64)
Vs Tiger 35 Kills / 2419 Deaths (K/D .014)
So, the T-34 sees about 10% the use of the Panzer IV, is killed by it roughly twice as often as it kills it, and is something like 10 times less effective vs a Tiger. Actually that last is misleading, since the T-34 is so completely ineffective vs Tigers that I imagine the only kills were as a result of the T-34 winging the Tiger and then getting a kill after a base was captured or something.
My argument is that the T-34 is pretty worthless as it is now. I don't know why they wasted the time modelling it since its usage will eventually fade away to nothing. Your argument is either "Yea, it sucks, so butch up" or "It most certainly doesn't suck, it is fast like lightning and sometimes the Panzer IVs rounds will bounce off".. I can't figure out which and niether can you, apparently.
I dont know a whole lot about the T-34/85. If it is just an upgunned T-34/76 then it would have been a better choice, in my opinion.
I don't think the Panzer IVs gun has any trouble at all defeating the "superior armor" on the T-34, but a bigger gun on the T-34 might give it a chance it a slugging match.
-
Maybe this has something to do with the inability of the T-34 to get 'kills'.
"Also, it is important to understand that realistic penetration values in 1941-1943 was reduced significantly due to low quality ammo.
from http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_4.html
-
Urchin:
Kewl post. :)
One thing to note is that the T34s 45mm frontal armor is sloped very heavily so its much more effective than Pz4s vertical 80mm. For example Panther had 80mm frontal armor just like Pz4 - but its 80mm was sloped very heavily so Panther was much more effective.
I's guess T34s frontal hull armor is about almost as strong as tiger 1 front hull armor, ceratinly it its more effective than than Panzer 4 frontal armor.
As for AH turret front armor it has been my experience that T34 has considerablt stronger turret front armor thatn Pz4. How did I come to this conclusion? Remember how I use the T34? I use it to defeat spawn campers.
From this experience I know t34s 76mm will penetrate Pz4 turret front rather easily, however it is imposssible to defeat T34 turret frontal armor witha nother T34 at even 20 yards. So clearly the T34 has the stronger armor b4ecause it can resist frontal fire from other T34s at close range, whhich the Pz 4 cannot. And trust me one T34 and I shot prolly 40 rounds at each other point blank before I figured out how to kill him.
In fact there is only 1 spot where T34 will penetrate another T34 from the front, and that is the small recatanglar curved armor strip between the top and bottom frontal hull plates.
Note I never said that the two tanks were equal, I even said that I prefer Pz4 firepower for general fights.
All I said was that T34/76 was clearly better in armor and speed but weaker in firepower. And thats just teh way it is - you have a choce now between tyhsoe factors. I certanly now see people making similar choices as I do, Panzer is upped for general fights where firepower is better, T34 is upped for spawn camping defence when armor and turret traverse are required or for some field ttcak roles where its armor makes it impervious to field acks and aircrfat cannon attcak.
Its a choice.
The real issue then never was that T34 had weak armor, which it does not have because its greatly better armor thak Pz4. The issue is the relative firepower between the two. The only next step in T34 is the 85mm model, which would then make Pz4 useless as t34/85 turret is armored like tiger 1 turret and its side hull armor is thicker too whils still being 30-35mph in speed with similar gun power. Ask yoiurself, would you ever druve Pz4 if you could drive a 40% faster, twice as heavily armored turret, more heavily armored front and hull sides T34 with the same firepower as Pz4? Obviously not, its a no brainer, its no choice - T34/85 is better in every way. So thats why Pyro said this 85mm T34 wont happend until a Panther is introduced.
I'm sorry is anything i said upset people, but I'm not sure wehat I can do or say to make u guys feel better about T34/76 beyond that yiou simply make that choice of when u need armor and speed or when u need firepower...
-
And yes Jester T34 was a very hard tank to drive in real life, the transmission and stering were very demanding on the driver and the suspension was a very rough design. However the T34 was still fast and had great armor.
-
The only area that i am dissappointed with the T34 model is the speed and gearing over different tarrain surfaces....... whilst faster on the flat the fall off with respect to terrain texture (rocky grass?) seems higher thna I would expect.
However Urchin is right.... in a fight v MK IV it has to have options to hit and run and hide and hit and run and hide etc.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The real issue then never was that T34 had weak armor, which it does not have because its greatly better armor thak Pz4. The issue is the relative firepower between the two. The only next step in T34 is the 85mm model, which would then make Pz4 useless as t34/85 turret is armored like tiger 1 turret and its side hull armor is thicker too whils still being 30-35mph in speed with similar gun power. Ask yoiurself, would you ever druve Pz4 if you could drive a 40% faster, twice as heavily armored turret, more heavily armored front and hull sides T34 with the same firepower as Pz4? Obviously not, its a no brainer, its no choice - T34/85 is better in every way.
I disagree. The Panzer IV H would still have the firepower advantage and the armor advantage. The Panzer IV H has 80mm of armor on the front. The T-34 has 45mm of armor at a 60° slope which gives it an effective 72mm of armor on the front, 8mm less than the Panzer IV H. And that is assuming the round is coming straight in from the front. Any down arc on the round's pather decreases the T-34's effective armor while such and arc increases the Panzer IV H's effective armor.
As to the comments about a choice, well, no there isn't. In tank A you drive for 9 minutes and have much harder time of killing anything, even if you get the drop on it. In tank B you drive for 10 minutes and can kill tank A or tank B with ease.
It is like saying that there is no choice for a low altitude fighter sweep because the La-7 is in the game. However, the La-7 is reasonably killable by a Fw190A-5, for example, whereas the Panzer IV H is not reasonably killable by the T-34/76D. The T-34/85 would be overall better than the Panzer IV H, but at least both are fully killable to eachother and that means that there are to viable choices. Right now there are not.
-
And people still despertly try to deny advantages of sloped armor when it comes to deflection...
Its quite clear in AH2 that T34 has more effective frontal armor than Pz4, both on the hull and the turret. This is clear from in game testing.
The only issue is relative firepower...
You want the 85mm to eliminate or level even that sole advantage of Pz4..
Not only that, but it would increse the T34s armor advantage to Tiger 1 levels.
90mm turret front and sloped/curved will be very much like the tigers 100mm vertical. 75mm sloped turret sides would be like tigers 80mm vertical... And all this at 35mph top speed...
You just want a tank that holds every advantage - because thats exatly what T34/85 would be.. And its hillarious that you dont even have the decency to admit it...
Anyone who requests a T34/85 is simply shamlessly asking for a T34 with Pz4 firepower, Tiger 1 turret armor and a 40% speedcadvantage over other tanks.
No wonder you all want thatr, it would be an awesome tank..
And you will get that T34/85 when the Panther comes..
Until then you can just whine.
-
No, we already have a tank that holds every advantage. That is called the Tiger.
What I want, which I've said several times, is a more even contest.
If that means the poor fascist Panzer isn't "better" than the evil communist T-34 in "any way" that'd be fine by me, as long as the Panzer had a reasonable chance of winning half the time.
As it stands now, the T34 does not have a realistic shot at winning half the time.
-
Now Urchin is getting despereta on us by pushing his political agenda as if it made any difference.. Its not like I wouldnt drop the Panzer 4 like a wet rag if we could get a T34/85, it wopuld hold every advantage and only incree its armor advantages to Tiger 1 levels... It should be telling that Urchin is now justifying a free T34/85s huge advantages by saying we allredy have a PERKED Tiger 1...
But you just have to whine...
WAAAAAAAAA
(http://www.swanksigns.org/images/signs/thumbnails/tn_whiner.jpg)
Cry me a river Urchin...
-
Oh, I already figured you'd be in the T-34 if we got an 85mm version, apparently your antipathy to the Soviet Union couldn't hold a candle to your "score". As for me, I'd probably be in the Panzer in that case, and as long as it stood a reasonable chance of killing the T-34 I'd be happy.
See, the difference between you and me is I play to be challenged. This is why I'm typically fighting in planes whereas you are typically flying the fastest plane you can get in as cautiously as it can be flown.
So when I go to play in GVs, I don't nescesarily want to be in the "best" tank there is. However, I also don't want to be a free kill for someone. I wouldn't mind being at a disadvantage, so long as that disadvantage is able to be overcome.
Is this some anniversary of some horrible communist repression or something? You seem even more bitter and antagonistic than usual for the past couple days.
-
Hillarious... I couldnt care less about score... How many score guys up constanly during vulches like I do?
How many score guys up constanly in spawncamps, just to see iof I can defeat them.. But hey you have to take it personal and yiou have to make up BS disatractions because you have been wrong on all the facts so far...
You want a T34 with tiger turret armor and pz4 firepower, thats what u want. Well you wont get it till Panther gets here - just like Pyro said.
Keep crying Urchin...
And i look forward to your next creative distration as you continue to be unable to argue the issue at hand in any reasobale way...
-
Lol, Herr Groinherz... I'm not crying. You just aren't smart enough to see that I guess.
Maybe you outta catch up on your reading, I'm sure your hero Der Fuhrer had something to say about situations like this.
-
Wht not just save time urchin and say:
"I, Urchin, have nothing useful to say so I try to distract the issue with meaningless personal attacks."
Wouldnt that be nicer?
-
I'd didn't start it, Herr Groinhurts.
In this thread, there've been 6 people basically agreeing with what I'm saying, which is that the T-34 we've got isn't competitive with the Panzer IV.
We've got one rabid Germanophile insisting that anyone who wants a tank that would be competitive with the Panzer IV is a whiney baby and probably a communist.
I'm sure you can pick out that person.
-
Its beyond all reason that you say I suggest you are communist, its outrageous because I never said anythinmg like that in this thread. But you repeatdly call me a nazi or soimething.. You are the one who statted this irrelevant political namec alling and you are the oinly one who participtaed in it. Its uttetrly shameful that you try to turn it arounbd now... Bizzare...
But hey that last post is just like all ur others, full of nonsense.
Show me anywhere where I said that T34 and Pz4 were even? SHOW ME!
All I have been saying from my VERY FIRST POST is:
T34 advantages:
Speed
Armor
Turret traverse
Pz4 advantages:
Firepower
Everything else is you getting all hurt and agressive because I called you whiner..
Go look at my first post and look at the chldish way you overeacted when I simply listed the simple facts about these tanks as modeled in AH..
Why are yoiu acting this way urchin?
-
No Herr Groinhurts, everything else is me attempting to point out that your argument is baseless, followed by more frothing at the mouth from you.
I'm done though, go curl up with Mein Kampf and relax, content that you've won a great victory for your idol. You are basically beyond reason.
-
So my argument is baseless?
Are saying T34 isnt faster?
That T34 isnt better armored?
That t34 doesant have faster turret traverse?
That Pz4 doesnt have better firepower?
I'm glad that you are done, because I wouldnt want yoiu to eat crow and admit everyting I said was true about the realtive strenghts and weakneses of the two tanks..
And yes, the bizzare personal attcaks really do help your argument!
-
Originally posted by Karnak
I disagree. The Panzer IV H would still have the firepower advantage and the armor advantage. The Panzer IV H has 80mm of armor on the front. The T-34 has 45mm of armor at a 60° slope which gives it an effective 72mm of armor on the front, 8mm less than the Panzer IV H. And that is assuming the round is coming straight in from the front. Any down arc on the round's pather decreases the T-34's effective armor while such and arc increases the Panzer IV H's effective armor.
As to the comments about a choice, well, no there isn't. In tank A you drive for 9 minutes and have much harder time of killing anything, even if you get the drop on it. In tank B you drive for 10 minutes and can kill tank A or tank B with ease.
It is like saying that there is no choice for a low altitude fighter sweep because the La-7 is in the game. However, the La-7 is reasonably killable by a Fw190A-5, for example, whereas the Panzer IV H is not reasonably killable by the T-34/76D. The T-34/85 would be overall better than the Panzer IV H, but at least both are fully killable to eachother and that means that there are to viable choices. Right now there are not.
Here you go Herr Groinhurts... why don't you respond to Karnak's post. Might be a bit difficult since he has basically shown you are wrong, but I'm sure you will come up with some sort of inspiration.
What Karnak is saying is that
1. No, the T-34 does not have an armor advantage. No amount of frothing at the mouth will change this fact, no matter how much you try.
2. The "speed advantage" is meaningless since all it really means is that you can come back and get killed again a little more quickly. Furthermore, with your vast experience (albiet on the dying end) in a T34, you should know that the T-34 doesn't have a speed advantage over broken ground or hills. Apparently this fact has escaped your notice.
3. Even if the T-34/85 WERE introduced, the Panzer IV would STILLhave a firepower and armor advantage.
-
I did respond to his post, he is wrong because he ignores deflection issues. Higly sloped armore as on T34 front dissepates sell energy by deflecting shots that would only go straight through vertical armor of the same horizontal thickness because te shell energy is not re-directed. Heck you can even go look at Pyro's post where he mentiones that deflection of shots will be a big factor to T34 sloped armor capability.
So that cover the hull front armor.
Hull side armor is clearly a T34 advantage from figures and game experience.
Turret side armor again favors T34.
Turret front armor is better on T34 in AH2, because a T34 gun cannot kill T34 turret frontally at short range but can kill Pz4 turret frontally at the same range.
The 34 is better armored in every way.
-
I'd take his word over yours, to be honest. He is somewhat less biased, in my opinion.
Anyway, I edited my last post before this one.
I'm done for the night, tired of banging my head against your rhetoric.
-
Now yoy say that Pz4 would have an armor advantage over T34/85..
Thats simply bizzare, considering that T34/85 gets 90mm curved frontal armor on turret and sloped 75mm on turret sides - basically giving it Tiger 1 turret armor levels. Hull armor gets stronger too.
You really have no clue bout these tanks Urchin, either that or you are just trolling...
-
There is a deflection issue there for certain. I was unsure of how much it was though. When I queried a friend of mine who used to command tanks (M1A1s, not WWII junk) he said that the greater percieved thickness was the deflection bonus. Therefore 45mm of armor at a 60° slope should be equal to 72mm or armor at a 0° slope. He said that there was no advantage beyond that.
GRUN,
The fact is that the T-34/76D is not competitive with the Panzer IV H. The usage and kill numbers speak to that.
You cannot simply line up bullet points of advantages and total the number of bullets to see which is better. In tanks, the gun is, by far, the single most important factor. A tank's capability is defined by it's gun's capability far more than any single performance factor on an aircraft determines it's capability.
Whether or not the T-34/85 would be overbearing we will never know, unless it is added as a free ride and the Panther V G is added as a perk ride. Personally I think that it would get more use than the Panzer IV H, but not by anywhere near the ratio that the Panzer IV H gets used over the T-34/76D. I'd guess, maybe 2/3rds T-34/85s and 1/3rd Panzer IV Hs instead of 13/14ths Panzer IV Hs and 1/14th T-34/76Ds.
-
Karnak,
what is a T-34/76D? I have never seen that designation before.
-
It is the one in AH. Just labeling it "T-34/76" doesn't diferenciate between the various T-34/76 versions. So far as I know there was only one T-34/85 version.
T-34/76A, Model 40: First models had 2 man turret that didn't provide vision devices or a cupola for the commander. Had L/30.3 Model 1938 tank gun mounted in a mount shaped like a pigs head. The first 115 vehicles had rear MGs installed. Had solid rubber tires around disc wheels.
T-34/76B, Model 41: Had rolled plate turret with a L/40 gun installed in an angular gun cradle. Late models had all steel wheels and a cast turret. 28 tons.
T-34/76C, Model 42: Larger turret with 2 roof hatches. Had improved tracks, vision, and armor for the hull MG. 30 tons. Driver had protecting visor for window. Hull MG is mounted in ball mantlet.
T-34/76D: Hexagonal turret and wider mantlet, plus external jettisonable fuel tanks. Thicker armor up to 70 mm. 30.9 tons. Two hatch covers in top of turret, that when open, led to it being nicknamed "Mickey Mouse" by German soldiers.
T-34/76E: Cupola added to turret and all welded construction.
T-34/76F: Cast turret with no cupola, 5 speed gear. Only 100 built as production switched to T-34/85.
-
Can anybody find any statement of mine in this thread where I say T34 is even with Panzer 4?
Anybody?
Hello?
Anyone?
Where do you people get this idea?
All I have ever given wrt to this topic was a listing of the advantages and disadvantages of the two tanks. Why people freak out over that and call me a nazi is beyond me...
Karnak I'm not so sure how applicable this modern tankers info is considering the vast gap in the technology of guns and armor between his time and WW2. The weapons and armors he is accustomed to are much different in materials, compositions and power than the WW2 standard of solid AP shot against simple face hardened armor.
Modern weapons are many times as powerful as WW2 guns and fire much flatter trajetories with much more force, all of which reduces chances of unwanted deflections. Look how poorly the heavly sloped glacis of T72 performed against modern rounds...The groweth in tank gun power after WW2 was astronomical as even meduim tanks by 1950s allready had double the AP performance of the long barreled 88 of king tiger...
Modern armors are entirely different also - often consiting of layerd soft materials like plastics, rubber, aluminum, even airgaps. All that could have an effect on the deflection capability of modern armor.
You said it yourself by saying he did not crew "WW2 junk." His experience is with a much different set of technologies.
So from his modern perspetive your friend is 100% right, but I deont think it tranfers to WW2 era technology.
And I can just see what Urchin will say to that, but let him...
-
So it is only an AH designation. Thanks Karnak.
-
No, that data was from a different site. AH simply IDs it as the T-34. It doesn't even specify that it is a T-34/76.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
No, that data was from a different site. AH simply IDs it as the T-34. It doesn't even specify that it is a T-34/76.
Then the site could be wrong, for afaik the Soviets only defined the tank by the year of its manufacturing introduction.
-
Originally posted by MiloMorai
So it is only an AH designation. Thanks Karnak.
It is common but incorrect to call that version of the T34 a T34/76D. Books including German memoirs identify it that way. The russians didnt however.