Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Soviet on August 19, 2001, 11:16:00 PM
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I need some ACM help, ok here's the situation, this happend to me 3 times tonight all ending with me getting killed, i'm at 7k and a P-51D dives onto my 6 and i can't shake him, he's at 500yards and starts firing barly missing me, now i tried several things here including trying to run climb even hammerhead but nothing worked, any 190 drivers know what i can do to get the stang off my six?? I'm new to aces high and i'm not too familiar with any manouvers except flat turning :D.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
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I dunno,
pull the nose up a bit, then maybe a zero G barrel roll? You could use your crappy e-retention and fast roll rate in a scissors to try and force an overshoot. Or from 7k, maybe go into a spiral dive at corner speed on the edge of blackout, then into a scissors. I have a hard time following that one cause of the tunnel vision.
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i'm not even gonna try to be an expert here - i'm probably worse than you (and everyone else)in the d-9 but, when all else fails it is always fun to try to get the p 51 to pop his wings off. it can go fast but drastic changes are disasterous for 51's.
if he slows down to avoid catastrophy or makes a gentle turn then exploit it and sit on the controls and get behind him.
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Soviet- this move works wonders on P51's (only had it not work once so far this tour). You see the P51 diving on your 6. This is what you do-
1. Dive, to get your speed up to 325 mph or so. The P51 will still be hauling up your 6 because those planes dive balls to the wall.
2. As P51 gets to 1k-900 yards or so roll 45 degrees to the right (so the top of your head is pointed diagnally up and to the right) and pull back on the stick. This will put you in a climbing right turn on his view. Pull for about 2 seconds, then straighten out. That should move the P51 from your 6 over to your high 4 or so. Continue flying straight (you'll be climbing still).
3. The P51 will track your climbing turn. As he gets to within 5-600 yards (right about the time he'd start firing) roll 180 degrees (roll inverted, to a 45 degree angle to the horizon), and pull back down on the stick. This will put you into a diving turn down and to the left on his view.
Pull for 2 or 3 seconds- then roll 180 degrees again (back right side up, but at a 45 degree angle (right) to the horizon.
From here you can do 1 of 2 things. If you are a fairly aggresive pilot (like me), you can pull back on the stick again, which will either bring you around behind the P51 or put you in a position to engage in scissors with the P51 (which he will lose). If you aren't in the mood to knife fight with the guy, you can stay inverted and pull into a Split-S. Your plane will go faster than a P51, so you can run away from him once you have gotten him to waste his energy chasing you through your initial evasive manuevers.
I use this manuever a LOT when folks try to bounce me, I'll try to make a tape of it and I can post it.
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Thanks for the tips Urchin! I appreciate them also.
mauser
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Urchin, it sounds as if you're describing the begining of scissors fight, is that the idea?
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Urchin, thanks for the help, tried it tonight, wooo, great fun, showed that pony a thing or two about messing with the Luftwaffe :D
I've been finding out what i'm great at though, jaboing, gotta love it :D
Thanks for the help everyone
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Seeker- whether or not that move "degenerates" into a scissors fight depends on if you time your 2nd reversal right. If you get the timing just right you will be behind the bandit as he comes back down and to the left to try to take the shot. If you come back up to early, yes, it will become a scissors for a short while (at most 1 or two revolutions) before the enemy is forced out in front due to his higher initial speed. If you come back up to late you will be behind the bandit, but you won't have much of a shot on him.
I usually prefer coming back up on the early side because if you timed it just right you'll have a good shot on him, which will make him blow whats left of his E-advantage by evading while he tries to get away. If you come up to early (which is sometimes even better) you can "tempt" the enemy into blowing his E-advantage because he will have a snapshot opportunity. However, it is generally a pretty tough shot to get a kill on, and he will have slowed even more because of the two turns he made to try to track you. Generally, even if the fight ends up in a scissors, the bandit will be forced out in front, but without most of the speed that he gathered diving in on your 6. This works to the 190D9's advantage, as it can outaccelerate most of the planes in the game, and it is also really damn fast :)
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What if my 51 just slows down before I get to you...
The 190D9 is dead.
I love 190s,, but the D9 is no match for a 51
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Deez, I'll be happy to make you eat those words in the DA any time :). The 190A5 and the 190D9 are MORE than a match for the P51- the 190A8 has some trouble with them.
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Dang... I swear I wrote a nice long reply to this thread but it somehow never made it through the Internet Jungle into a post.
Well, here is the gist of it:
1. With a P51 closing on your six you need to try to force an overshoot somehow and avoid being shot in the process. A barrel roll is one way. However, there really isn't any such thing as a "0 G barrel roll". If you don't pull back on the stick when you roll, it is just an aileron roll around your axis that doesn't change your flight path, and hence doesn't do what a barrel roll does. A barrel roll is an aileron roll combined with some back stick (and hence some positive G's) to displace your flight path. The result is that rolling and pulling back changes your flight path in a way that is very difficult for a faster attacker to track for a shot. It also lengthens your flight path compared to a plane flying straight ahead, so this increased the chance of an overshoot while you get to maintain more speed than if you simply slowed your plane down to try for the overshoot.
2. You almost never want to go upwards with a faster bogey on your six. If you do, you make everything easier for him. The faster attacker's plane will be trimming nose up likely, so pulling up makes it easier for him to see you and line you up for a shot. In addition, he has more E, so going upwards is good for him, it means more control for him, and usually less for you due to low speed. If you pull up in front of the attacker, you show him your planform making a much bigger target. Indeed, a dead six tracking shot is more difficult... every BnZ pilot's dream is the target that pulls up in front of his guns for the easy kill. The only time you want to go upwards with a faster bogey on your six is when he is out of effective guns range, and then you normally only do it to set up some other kind of move. Upwards moves can increase the closure rate and increase the chances of an overshoot, but beware that it makes you a much easier target. Normally it is better to use some sort of downward move if you want the greatest chances of not being shot.
3. Urchin's move above describes what I would call a "flick-'n-flee". The initial upwards break will put the 190 in the right conditions for a single wing snap-roll stall. You don't have to snap-roll, but sometimes doing the reversal with a snap-roll makes you very hard to track. The upwards pull gets you slow enough to stall one wing, you then combine back stick with rudder to stall one wing and snap roll it 180 degrees. A quick 180 degree roll will work almost as well. Then continue as Urchin suggests. This move will work very well versus many planes if they have more speed, it works well versus P-47's as well, trust me. :)
There is a counter to the flick-n-flee. It is simply a high yoyo. If I'm diving on your 190 in my Jug, as you break up and right I line you up for a shot and wait for your break move. You hit the snap-roll and pull through underneath. I simply roll 75 degrees left and pull up through a high yoyo, seeing you come out underneath my left wing. Depending on what you are doing, I will then either complete the yoyo and dive down onto your six, or if you pull back into me I will use some out of plane maneuver to prevent the overshoot and maintain position on your six.
Normally what the flick-n-flee does very well is generate separation quickly. In addition you'll notice that my counter to it means I have to lose sight of the bogey as he passes under me, and a smart FW pilot will roll out on a different vector and gain separation as I search for him. Even if I see what you are doing and counter it effectively, the 190's great speed and accelleration means you normally generate considerable separation, often enough to escape the fight versus a slower plane, or one that does not dive or accellerate as well as the Wulfe. If the enemy tries to follow the move, he has to slow down... so the flick-n-flee will equalize E states after a couple of them in a row, again allowing the faster plane to get away.
[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]
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You are wrong Urchin, but if you insist...
-SW
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Hey guys... do us all a favour and film this engagement will you? No matter who wins, it will be an interesting fight to talk about.
Both the D9 and the P51 have some slight advantages they can exploit. The Pony has better sustained turn, low speed handling, and E retention, while the D9 has superior accelleration and roll. Not a cut and dried engagement by any means. :)
DeezCamp,
It's not as simple as "just slowing down". You are a P51 diving on a lower 190 with quite a bit more speed. How are you going to dump that speed and avoid the overshoot? Now granted, there are ways to do that, but just "slowing down" is not really workable, or desirable normally. The D9 has superior accelleration compared to the P51, so the last thing you want to do is slow down to his level... he can gain E back faster than you can. What you want to do as the attacker in the P51 is use out of plane maneuvers to maintain a greater E state and avoid an overshoot. Although you could slow down and be relatively safe for a while, just doing so would be challenging... the Pony does not slow down well, and it certainly doesn't slow down as quickly as an FW in a hard break. Use lag pursuit and out of plane maneuvers instead to maintain your higher speed/E and stay in the bandit's rear quarter.
[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]
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Sure Ill fight ya urch ;)
You can teach me a few things about the D9
and I can teach you some things about the Pony :D
As fas as slowing down, a hi yo yo could be fine, chop throttle and do lag to either side of ons flight path.. and you'd be fine as well, just stay above keep all the potential E.
So urch.. the fight setup is this...
You are 2k below me.. And I am abouve you diving in... we can see if the manover you describe works?
:D <S>
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Film it please.
F.
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I've dove on 190's to see them do this move I think, or something similar. Unless there is a HUGE speed differential, don't go into the zoom...
SKurj
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Sure Deez, that sounds like a workable plan. When do you want to get together to do it?
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Also- Swulfe. Clarify please- what exactly am I "wrong" about.
Thats like me popping into a thread and saying "You are full of toejam, Swulfe, but you normally are".
See what I mean here?
BTW, Leph- is the sustained turn of the P51D really better than that of the D9? I had always assumed otherwise, but I've never really been in a sustained turn with one. Usually they try to run away once they mess up the bounce, and turning slows you down.
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Well, I don't really know for sure which one is the better sustained turner, but when it degenerates to low speed, I'd guess the Pony. It's nice multi-angle combat flaps can make the difference here, and I believe will give the Pony the edge.
However, neither fellow really wants to be in that position, least of all the Pony driver since the D9's accelleration is superior. Where the pony will use that low speed handling is in a horizontal rolling scissors, I'd bet the Pony will kill a D9 in that move once things get slow enough.