Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Sparks on August 20, 2001, 08:10:00 PM
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OK - the other night I got into a situation which I have been in before.......
I fly the P38 - in this instance I have bounced a La7 and worked round to his 6 but still too far in lag to get a shot. By this time the speed is falling and he starts to loop. Now I have found that I can turn pretty well in the 38 using large doses of flap once the speed gets below 200 so my tactic at the moment is if we go vertical watch the speed - if I'm entering at 220 or below then as I go up the first half of the loop keep feeding in a notch of flap at a time as the speed decreases by 20mph - 5 notches = 100mph so if I end up at the top at 120 then I'll be at full flap. Now I know this sounds a lot and the drag is high with full flap but the 38 is perfectly flyable at 120 with full flap and you can often catch an oppo out who thinks "ah a 38 I can out turn him". As I come down the other side then I wind the flap back in.
Now I can usually get about 3 loops over this way before the speed bleeds too far so that the entry speed at the bottom is too low and I would stall going over the top.
So here I am with this La7 starting a loop fight - I'm on his 6 about 400 yds and we are both pulling hard. We loop 2 or maybe 3 times and I am not losing angles on him but not gaining. We arrive at the bottom again and he shows all the signs of going up again - however my speed is now down to 160ish and so there is no way I'm going to make another. So what are my choices ??? At the moment I am breaking into a flat turn or slightly nose down keeping 2-3 notches of flap out pulling to the stall horn to try and be round tighter than his loop and be waiting as he comes down but this has variable sucess - ideas anyone.
And before anyone says yes I know I shouldn't be turn fighting in a 38 they are no good ...ya de ya de ya the thing the thng the thing.... but I LIKE my 38 :)
Sparks
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It's not AW, Sparks....
The LA holds more E here. There comes a time when you should switch to horizontal and just plainly out turn him (you've got one, may be two circles at that speed).
that or the double immel first time round...
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Dont go horizontal with an La7 unless YOU are bouncing it. La7 will outloop and out-E you after the 2nd loop. That lavochnik monster gains a LOT of E real quick with a half second dive.
After the 2nd loop, or if you low on E, split-S and dive away, once on the deck, the la7 is almost on par with the 38. Why? You can force him into sciscors, if you survive it, the la7 will either have to run for it or enter a turning fight on a place he cannot dive to get his E.. and the 38's flaps will out-turn and keep the 38 stable on real slow speed manouvers. If the La-7 runs for it (it will outrun you level too, but it takes time), then I usually turn tail to him and make my own getaway.
Check priv msgs Sparks.
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Yep, you will lose a looping fight with an La7 if you don't start with an advantage. Even if you do start with an advantage, you won't have many loops to shoot him before the great accelleration of the La7 eats away at your E advantage.
The solution is not to start flat turning. See, he is looping, so if you flat turn, he simply rolls in the dive portion and intersects your flight path for a snapshot. Not good for you. :)
In the situation you stated... a loop fight, you don't get the shot, and you are now losing it. I would extend when he is slowest... ie: as he goes up towards the top of the loop and you are at the bottom, you are faster, so at that point a 0 G dive to accellerate towards home may get you a bit of breathing room. Now at this point you are in deep do.. the La7 is going to catch you unless you caught him napping and got a bunch of "free" separation. Assuming you didn't... now's the time to "do some of that pilot s#$t". You can't outrun him, so you'll have to try to sucker him into a scissors... rolling scissors would likely be best given the 38's good roll control and good low speed handling. I think rolling scissors would be the ticket versus the La7... well your best shot anyway.
You could try transitioning the loop fight directly into the rolling scissors as well if you think you can win them. Depending on the situation when you go upwards in the loop fight, you could roll back around to start the rolling scissors instead of pulling over the top of the loop. Depending on the relative E and positional states at the start of the fight, this might work well. Just try not to give the other guy a free snapshot when you transition into it... and try to start as the guy coming down as he comes up... that's normally where the shot opportunities are. :)
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Well I never said I was any good :)
But what I'm poorly describing is that I'd only try one or at most two loops with the P38 against the LA, and then try rolling out of the loop and catching him in the side as he comes down; or, if my need for speed is very great then a hard low yo-yo and a face shot, again as he comes down. People always seem to dive away in a hurry when you do that :)
The P38 has the ammo to waste in snapshots unlike the LA; and I do believe the LA not only greatly out dives the P38, but also out accelerates it and out rolls it too; so I do see the tighter turn as one of the '38's few cards on the table; along with it's better prop hang charecteristics and superior departure handling. In other words, compared with the LA-7 at least, the P38 is a stall fighter, not an E fighter.
<cringes waiting for the derision.....>
Additionaly AH's P38 is one of the biggest surprises to an AW'er (it IS that Sparks, right? :)). In AW the P38 is a looping demon, AW's flaps operate almost instantly and at full flaps few can keep with an AW P38 in a nose low turn, so in many ways its' apparent familarity to us gets us killed quicker than trying something new such as the late war exotica we have available here.
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I like the low yoyo and face shot better. Nothing can change a fight and turn the tables as well as unexpected violent action. When in doubt, get aggressive. If the La7 is paying attention when you flat turn as he comes down, he can just roll in the vertical and change direction faster than you can possibly turn, and smoke you when he comes down. You may still win doing that, but it's because he made a mistake. The other possibility is that you are using his greater E (read speed) against him, IE by turning HARD for the snapshot as he comes down, his greater speed increases his turn radius giving you a snapshot. It's certainly better than staying in the vertical tail chase and waiting to die. :)
Remember that vs. the La7, you are the radius fighter, he is the rate fighter. You want to engage him in a situation where you are passing nose-to-nose, not where you are chasing each other's tail. This is why any sort of a scissors type of move is preferrable to a tail chase... whether it's horizontal or vertical (a loop fight). In that sense Seeker, breaking out of the loop fight makes good sense... you are essentially switching to a nose to nose engagement where your lower speed sustained turn and hence tighter radius will be more important than the La7's better turning rate.
You are right when you say that the vs. the La7, the 38 is the stallfighter. I'm saying that the best way to use that advantage is with a horizontal rolling scissors. In a rolling scissors, your ability to keep your nose up and roll over the top at very low speed comes into play more than your overall roll performance at higher speeds. It's the fellow who can continue to perform barrel rolls in the rolling scissors (when the other guy runs out of E and can't continue the large barrel rolls... normally stalls out of the top of it) that wins. Just avoid a rolling scissors that's headed downwards versus a plane that rolls well at high speed. Make sure that if your advantage is low speed, you lead him into a low speed maneuver that will favour your plane.
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Flat scissors will help, but they work best with a plane with good roll rate and not to big a size, not sure of the p38 guess its to big a target but if engaged defensive its worth a try.Its actually very difficult to hit a plane that does that manouver but nothing is safe lol.
(ehh just read lepths post and its all there lol :) posted this before i read it)
airguard
[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: air_guard ]
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Chased an FW in the CT the other night. I was in a spitV. he was floppin to the left, then to the right, it must have gone on for 3-4 minutes. I couldn't hittim!! Finally I just said fek it, flew straight, fired guns and let him fly into the stream.
SKurj
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Thanks again for all the replies guys and yes seeker it is THAT Sparks. This has happenned to me twice more now and I have tried a couple of other things - one was to transition into a climbing turn at stall speed from the downward part of my loop when I realised the speed wasn't going to get high enough. That keeps you close enough so that if he rolls towards you at the top of his loop it is the start of a scissors. The other was a dive to separate - that didn't work as his better accelleration caught me.
Anyway thanks again.
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I'm curious here....I'm certainly not a 38 expert...but I'd take the fight up if possible. The la7 is a great ride but suffers with alt. The 38 performs well at alt. If I'm the attacking plane...I zoom vs loop and see if I can rope him....course the 38 is fragile and a big target...but the la7 is tough to hit with out side 300 or so...least for me. I'd go max zoom to almost stall...dump all flaps and go to a slow spiral climb...if the la7 tries to follow hanging prop he'll fall off a lot faster than if we both just zoom on up to stall.
This at all realistic or am I nuts??
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Ooo I dunno humble... that would scare me vs. an La7. Those things have great engines and good power/weight ratios. I think they hang on their prop pretty well. In a vertical zoom at 0G's I'd bet they can shoot farther than 300 too. It's worth exploring certainly. If you played it right you could rope him perfectly. You want to do this from the start though, and as high up as possible... preferably above 10k, the higher the better.
Hmmm, now I'm gonna have to go die a bunch in a 38 trying this. :)
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Guys, I fly LA7 a lot and the only way I know of that will allow a 38 to beat a la7 (assuming of course both pilots are equally skilled) is a high sided boon n' zoom attack. But a warning here! Be very careful not to give one once of energy away, (as far as is possible). What i do when bounced by a 38 is keep my e as high as possible and wait for the 38 to lose some. Usually after a few bz passes the 38 driver gets impatient and either doesnt complete his zoom or tries to turn behind. I can assure you that any 38 driver who tries to turn with an la7 driver with half a clue, will die! 38 will easily outdive an la7 so if ya cant fight on your terms, i suggest RLF tactics (Run Like F&*%) <G>. Anyway my two pence worth.
BTW good to see ya around again Sparks m8 :)
<S>
Gremlin
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Leph...
I agree, the La-7 is a superior ride all around. I'm operating on the assumption that the 38 is in an initial positive E position at moderate altitude. As the aggressor he will control the fight initially, if he wastes any E/alt in "saddling up" he will never recover it vs a competent foe. If he allows the fight to go down at all the la-7's performance edge goes up even more...to me the only logical option is to initiate action and refuse the 2nd loop...to be candid, I don't know if it would work well...but not much will here.
All in all I'd rather be 18k looking down at an la-7 than 8k looking back at one :)
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Ah, well in that case I agree Humble. The only way a 38 driver can expect to win an engagement with an La7 reliably is to start with an E advantage and maintain it until the La7 dies. By all means, if you have the E advantage required to zoom up higher than he can get to shoot you, by all means keep the fight up there and maintain that advantage!
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That would be ideal lepht, but it wont happen. The P-38 here loses E at an extreme rate very quickly (odd!). You wont even retain more than 320 or 340 mph below 20k, even when level. The plane will bleed it out in a few seconds, WEP lets it keep it for a second or two more, but that's it.
Whenever I fight an LA7 I try to go into vertical only twice (more if la7 does flat turns instead of going vertical), but when the La7 starts to go vertical, I try and push it into 200ft alt from ground sciscors, using the La7's great accel and speed against it, most of the times the la7 overshoots in sciscors and either tries to go vertical after them (which he has low E and noses up veery slowly.. a perfect shot opportunity), or begins a turn fight (full flaps 38... no problem!) or tries to run for it (at which time I also run for it).
Only experienced flyers commonly not overshoot in the sciscors.
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Tac,
Are you suggesting that a P38 (even with full flaps) would out-turn an LA7? If thats true I have yet to meet a 38 driver who can do it. My usual tactic is to get the 38 turning. Once he does he's as good as dead.
Perhaps I've just come up against the wrong class of 38 drivers. The only planes Ive every seen out-turning an la7 is la5, spit, nik, zero and 1 particularly well driven 205, and of course the 109 g2 but that has to be well driven.
These are the ones I BZ. In fact my greatest joy is when a 38 or hog (c or d) tries turning. Would like to check it out though. If ya got a minute one evening we could do some tests?
<S>
Gremlin.
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The La7 can be outturned by the P38. I know this because I can outturn an La7 in a 109G2, but a P38 will outturn ME in a 109G2.
The LA7 doesn't actually turn very well. It HANDLES great, and it can do very nice high speed turns (and build up speed again quickly after them), but if you get into a slow circle fight on the deck, a P38 will outturn you after a couple rotations.
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
<SNIP> Nothing can change a fight and turn the tables as well as unexpected violent action. When in doubt, get aggressive. <SNIP>
I quite agree.
I rarely (maybe 5 times total) fly the P-38, (it compresses too fast and easy for my flying style) however in the FW 190D I've found the best way to battle the La7 is to ZOOM-n-BOOM it, always climbing back out to 10k ft or better, as the La7 is truely in her element "slammed 'n da weeds" and if ya try to fight her down low she gonna win.
The La7 is quickly replacing the N1K2 as a favorite in the MA.
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Milnko,
I don't think its fair to use the g2 as a benchmark to say 38 outturns la7. The different flying characteristics of each means that the only true comparison can be 38 v la7. I don't mean to be smart about this but if anyone thinks that a 38 can outturn an la7 in an even contest then I wanna meet them in the Duelling arena <G>! I am opening myself to be proved wrong but I really dont believe I will.
So Lets try it guys, lets put the 38 up against la7 in an even turnfight, 50% fuel per plane and see what comes out. Nothing like a bit of research to provide a definitive answer.
<S>
Gremlin.
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P38 on almost full flaps=Very slow speed (120 mph or less). La7 will either spin on its torque or is most likely to level out and try and gain some separation. Only a dumb la7 pilot will keep a constant turn on that situation. If they dont auger, they run. At that point you run too.
Sciscors on the deck are the best LA7 trap there is. Use em flaps and the la7 will have a miserable time.