Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: NUKE on December 22, 2004, 08:48:55 PM
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http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/12/19/102144.shtml
The reporter who managed to get a National Guardsman serving in Iraq to question Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld about why his unit's vehicles lacked sufficient armor coached the soldier using false information.
In fact, by the time Chattanooga Times Free Press reporter Edward Lee Pitts rehearsed Spc. Thomas "Jerry" Wilson on what to say to Rumsfeld, the Pentagon had already up-armored 97 percent of the vehicles in Thomas' 278th Regimental Combat Team, senior members of the Army's combat systems development and acquisition team said Thursday.
Further undermining the premise of Pitts' question, orders to up-armor the last 20 of the 278th's 830 vehicles were already in the pipeline when he engineered the bogus inquiry.
According to the Maryville, Tenn., Daily Times - a rival to Pitts' paper - Army Maj. Gen. Stephen Speakes and Army Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson said during last week's Pentagon briefing that routine pre-deployment preparations before proceeding to Iraq included adding protective armor plates to the last 20 vehicles of the Tennessee-based 278th Regimental Combat Team's 830 vehicles.
"When the question was asked, 20 vehicles remained to be up-armored at that point," Gen. Speakes said, in comments completely ignored by the major media.
"We completed those 20 vehicles in the next day," he said. "In other words, we completed all the armoring within 24 hours of the time the question was asked," Gen. Speakes added.
Makes me wonder what the hell people in the media are up to. Jokers.
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That is the modern media's mdus operandi:
They don't report the news, they create it, andt hey do not bother to make certain of their facts, aware that in the long run, all that matters is the accusation, not the facts.
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Perhaps it was because hundreds, if not thousands of vehicles in units before them were doing exactly that. Being up armored with salvaged scrap from landfills. Before you go screaming "No they did'nt" watch "Off to War".
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My gut tells me that even with the armor upgrade, those cats are doing "field mods" regardless, RPM.
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I agree. If I were there I'd be strapping sandbags and steel on anything I rode in. But the point was we were/are sending National Guard units with Korean and Vietnam era trucks that had zero armor. If I had not seen troops doing it in "Off to War" I would probably think the whole thing was BS myself. Apparently it was more than just one unit of the Arkansas National Guard that had to do this. BTW, the newest truck they had was built in 1964. I'm sure regular army units are much better prepared and equipted than the Guard units are. The Guard units were equipted to help flood and other natural disaster victims, not fight in Iraq. That is their words, not mine. The Guard had to make do with what they had and adapt to the threat they faced. Too bad they did'nt get the equiptment they needed before now. Remember this was a group of Guardsmen he was addressing, not a regular Army unit.
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Originally posted by NUKE
[Makes me wonder what the hell people in the media are up to. Jokers.
...he said posting a story from the media...
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Thrawn, newsmax is an approved propagan...err news outlet.
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Originally posted by rpm
The Guard had to make do with what they had and adapt to the threat they faced. Too bad they did'nt get the equiptment they needed before now.
When in our entire history has the Army NG been completely equipped with front-line equipment when they were initially called up? Which war was that?
There's no denying the Pentagon didn't plan for this. But we've NEVER had an Army NG that was fully equipped to match the Regulars. Especially after the "peace dividend".
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Originally posted by Toad
When in our entire history has the Army NG been completely equipped with front-line equipment when they were initially called up? Which war was that?
There's no denying the Pentagon didn't plan for this. But we've NEVER had an Army NG that was fully equipped to match the Regulars. Especially after the "peace dividend".
Where did I ever say they were ever fully equipted? It seems we do agree that they were'nt equipted for the job handed to them. You might also explain to me why the Army court-martialed, imprisoned and dishonorably discharged the NG commander that salvaged abandoned equiptment to complete their mission.
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RPM,
They did that because they attempted to cover up the "acquisition" of the equipment. Had they not done that there wouldn't have been much of a problem with it. Scrounginig has been a military art for centuries. When you try to cook the books by covering ID numbers and lie about where and when you got the equipment that was not on your TO&E (table of organization and equipment) you will get your butt handed to you on a sling. My question about all of this is simply why ONLY are Guard units being examined like that? I'd be willing to bet that there are quite a few regular units doing similar activities. I wonder if any of them will be held just as acountable.
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Yeah, let's not pi** off the accountants in order to accomplish a critical mission. Luckily SOMEBODY (http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/10475018.htm) is trying to do something about it. Maj. Klaus and CWO Birt should be personally thanked by President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld instead of what happened to them. She was an outstanding commander that did what was nessessary to complete her mission. They procecuted them as if they were stealing the equiptment for personal gain.
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How is the US army morale these days amongst National Guard? I hear immigration numbers to Canada are up quite alot from norm.
...-Gixer
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none going to new zealand tho that I know of... except to lay on the beach and trade beads with the natives.
lazs
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Speaking of the National Guard, I made a statement weeks ago that was ignored here that bears repeating.
For a Guardsman to get disabled in Iraq is an economic death sentance, in many cases. As "part time" soldiers they don't qualify for a Veterans' disability pension, and if their disability is severe enough they can't qualify for Workman's Comp cause it wasn't an on the job industry. Best they can get is a Social Security disability pension, and that takes 24 months before they get their first check.
You would think on a Board that is so pro Iraq War, as this one is. it would deserve a comment- I guess that is just one of those things, like "drafting" DD civies to serve in Iraq, that "good" patriots don't talk about.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Lizking
My gut tells me that even with the armor upgrade, those cats are doing "field mods" regardless, RPM.
I was watching a specail on the History channel on Torpedoes. In WWII the sub crews would disassemble the torps and jerry-rig them to detonate, the magnetic portion wasn't functioning due to a defect.
IIRC, a US sub fired 6 torps at a Cruiser w/in 2000 yards, only one detonated, they could hear the other 5 hit, but, nothing.
Karaya
PS - Liberals will stop at NOTHING to turn this Gulf Campaign into another "Vietnam". Makes me sick to my stomach, and I'm only 31.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I was watching a specail on the History channel on Torpedoes. In WWII the sub crews would disassemble the torps and jerry-rig them to detonate, the magnetic portion wasn't functioning due to a defect.
IIRC, a US sub fired 6 torps at a Cruiser w/in 2000 yards, only one detonated, they could hear the other 5 hit, but, nothing.
Karaya
PS - Liberals will stop at NOTHING to turn this Gulf Campaign into another "Vietnam". Makes me sick to my stomach, and I'm only 31.
It's not the "liberals" that are turning this into another Viet Nam, it's the Administration.
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Next thing we'll see a post that berieved family members actually "prefer" a machine to sign letters of condolence rather than have the Sec Def do it!!!!
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Airhead,
How long has it been like that for the NG?
Was their a new law passed that denied them a Veterans' disability pension? If so, when was it passed?
Obviously, oversights like this come to the fore in actual wartime; nobody worries about it when there's no threat.
So, what's the history on it? Did the NG ever get Vets disability?
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Originally posted by Airhead
Speaking of the National Guard, I made a statement weeks ago that was ignored here that bears repeating.
For a Guardsman to get disabled in Iraq is an economic death sentance, in many cases. As "part time" soldiers they don't qualify for a Veterans' disability pension, and if their disability is severe enough they can't qualify for Workman's Comp cause it wasn't an on the job industry. Best they can get is a Social Security disability pension, and that takes 24 months before they get their first check.
You would think on a Board that is so pro Iraq War, as this one is. it would deserve a comment- I guess that is just one of those things, like "drafting" DD civies to serve in Iraq, that "good" patriots don't talk about.
:rolleyes:
When a guardsmen gets called up they are on ACTIVE DUTY.
WHEN ANY MEMBER on ACTIVE DUTY gets injured or disabled while on ACTIVE DUTY they are entitled to veterans disabilities benifits PERIOD.
I'd really like to see a source of this statement that says injured guardsmen on ACTIVE DUTY arnt entitled to disability if injured.
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Toad, not sure how log it's been like that- I called my "expert" but they're out for the day.
Fact- NG troops are not considered full time military and, thus, are not eligible for military disability
Fact- Formre NG troops disabled in Iraq, unable to any longer perform their previous occupations, are not eligible for workman's comp causee it's not an on the job injury
Fact- It takes two years to get a Social Security disability pension
Now, for Dept. of Defense employees-
Fact- Average age of DoD employees is 48
Fact- Under new legislation to help fight this war DofD employees can be transferred to Iraq, as many have.
Fact- The DofD does not have to provide "reasons" nor even disclose the amount of DofD employees are in Iraq...not even to their own Union, the AFGE.
Fact- DofD employees are given one days' firearms course before deployment to Iraq. They are then issued body armor and a sidearm.
There's more, Toad, matybe this evening my "expert" will return my call and I'll give you the link to DofD rules and the NG policy.
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Well, I was under the impression, like Gunslinger, that once called up the NG was considered Active Duty with the concurrent major benefits.
If you have an offical link to your facts, I'd appreciate it as I would like to read it and then address this issue with my Represenatives.
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A Summary of VA Benefits for National Guard and Reserve Personnel (http://www.vba.va.gov/EFIF/NatlGd-ReservesVABens0503.pdf)
This is from the Veteran's Administration website:
Disability Benefits VA administers two disability programs. Both are tax-ree.
Compensation: VA pays monthly benefits for disabilities incurred or aggravated during active duty and active duty for training, and for heart attack or stroke incurred during inactive duty for training. Such disabilities are considered “service-connected.” Additional benefits for the member and his/her ependents or survivors may apply.
Pension: This income-based benefit is paid to veterans with honorable war-time service who are ermanently and totally disabled (or age 65 or older).
This appears to conflict with your statements. Or are you talking about something else?
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Airhead,
Any Guardsman or Reservist on active duty is eligable for all VA bennies if disabled on active duty. Now your "expert" may be confusing drill for active duty. In drill status the Guardsman or Reservist is not on active duty on orders. When ever a Guardsman or Reservist is placed on orders for active duty, to include annual training (this is done on written orders), they have access to all active duty health care and bennies.
Once orders have been cut placing the Guardsman or Reservist on active duty they are active, not drilling. If a Guardsman is activated for NON federal duty there may be exceptions to the VA benefits.
In the case of Federal activation, such as deployment overseas, the Guardsman or Reservist is a full time ACTIVE duty soldier on D.O.D. orders. In addition to that, if they are on active duty for more than 180 days they also earn VETERAN status. A Guardsman or Reservist who does not serve more than 180 CONSECUTIVE days of "on Federal orders" active duty does not qualify for Vet status. That is why all MOS and Officer training is set up to go no more than 179 days for Guard and Reserve soldiers. We wouldn't want all those "part time, weekend warriors" who place their entire lives and families on hold, to actually get anything but part time pay, PX and Commisary priveledges for it now would we.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Toad, not sure how log it's been like that- I called my "expert" but they're out for the day.
Fact- NG troops are not considered full time military and, thus, are not eligible for military disability
FACT -NG troops are not considered full time military unless they are in fact full time guard.
(so in that essence you are correcr)
BUT
NG troops do belong to the state untill they are FEDERALIZED (for lack of better words) at wich point they are on ACTIVE DUTY!
It's true if a guard member is injured while not performing guard dutys he is not entitled to VA disability.
Same goes for active duty troops though. If a troop is injured in a car accident while coming home from a store one night he is (in most cases) not entitled to VA disability.
BUT
FACT-When NG troops are called up they are on ACTIVE DUTY and are entitled to the same benifits as all other ACTIVE DUTY members of the same grade job and skill level through out the rest of the military.
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Mav, they seemed pretty knowledgable, but hey, I might be wrong. Actually I hope I'm wrong.
They'll return my call, I'll get it clarified.
(Damn, I can't find my reading glasses.)
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Once your experts return your call, and Toad gets in touch with his representatives, I'll have my people contact your people.
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Airhead,
<--- Retired Reservist here. I'm currently enjoying one of the bennies that a retiree (even a Reservist) has, which is using the Military RV park on Davis Monthan AFB in Tucson Arizona.
BTW, the orders a Guardsman or Reservist receives on activation has a small clause on it. It states that for the duration of time that the individual is on orders they have all pay, rights, bennies and obligations to include UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) provisions pursuant to that duty status.
Nash,
Please have your people stay on the other side of the room. We don't want any of those contaminants they carry. :p
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I didn't mean physical contact. Though.... for the right price that could probably be arranged.
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Nash, you couldn't pay us enough.
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Originally posted by Nash
Once your experts return your call, and Toad gets in touch with his representatives, I'll have my people contact your people.
lol
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Originally posted by lazs2
none going to new zealand tho that I know of... except to lay on the beach and trade beads with the natives.
lazs
Yeah wouldn't supprise me, but offer beads and they'll eat you just like the old days. Guess for a few Canada is just too cold.
...-Gixer
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Gixer, do you have any actual numbers on how many US citizens have applied for Canadian visa or citizenship since the election and how those numbers compare to applications prior to the election?
Link would be nice as well, thanks.
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gixer has no clue as usual but he thought that it sounded good and... it was anti American so it had to be correct. gixer knows as little about America as the rest of the world knows (or cares) about new zealand.
lazs
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Well, I looked at Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s website but they only have official stats up to 2002.
Just wondered where Gixer was getting the latest numbers since the election as I can't seem to Google them up.
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I found the info on Us citizens moving to Canada. So far the total is......1 family.
Applications Approved
The Canadian government has now approved the first visa applications from Americans looking to move to Canada after President Bush's re-election.
Tresey Kilbourne and his family, from Seattle, applied more than a year ago for Canadian visas, planning to withdraw their applications if a Democrat won.
They're now looking for a home in British Columbia. Mr. Kilbourne, quoted by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, says, "With the Republicans in full control of everything, there hasn't been anything that has caused us to think that we weren't doing ... the smart thing."
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Gixer, can you confirm or counter Lizking's finding?
Seems to seriously undermine your recent statements.
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"I found the info on Us citizens moving to Canada. So far the total is......1 family."
lol! I wouldn't be surprised at all.
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Originally posted by Toad
Gixer, can you confirm or counter Lizking's finding?
Seems to seriously undermine your recent statements.
Seriously.....:rolleyes:
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Canada is cold- I wouldn't live there if they offered free beer even.
An update on my "expert"- she's an official with the DofD, so I assumed she knew what she was talking about as she discussed the status of DofD employees "drafted" to Iraq. When she launched into the status of NG troops wounded in action I had assumed she knew what she was talking about, but it turns out (after a phone conversation) her info came from a "television news program."
I believed what she was saying, not because I wanted to, but because I thought she was telling the truth and speaking from an informed, and trusted, viewpoint. In absence of collaborative evidence (I looked hard too) I withdraw my statement that NG troops aren't afforded the same rights Regular Army troops are should they become disabled.
I apologize for spreading uncollaberated "rumors." The Iraq war is an issue that is near and dear to all of our hearts, and what is needed is the truth, not innuendo and politiking. I withdraw my claims (happily, actually) that NG troops aren't eligible for military disability pensions.
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Originally posted by Nash
Once your experts return your call, and Toad gets in touch with his representatives, I'll have my people contact your people.
Yes do that.
Pehaps then can have tea together
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Originally posted by rpm
I agree. If I were there I'd be strapping sandbags and steel on anything I rode in. But the point was we were/are sending National Guard units with Korean and Vietnam era trucks that had zero armor. If I had not seen troops doing it in "Off to War" I would probably think the whole thing was BS myself. Apparently it was more than just one unit of the Arkansas National Guard that had to do this. BTW, the newest truck they had was built in 1964. I'm sure regular army units are much better prepared and equipted than the Guard units are. The Guard units were equipted to help flood and other natural disaster victims, not fight in Iraq. That is their words, not mine. The Guard had to make do with what they had and adapt to the threat they faced. Too bad they did'nt get the equiptment they needed before now. Remember this was a group of Guardsmen he was addressing, not a regular Army unit.
Not surprising the soldiers are doing their own upgrading.
Soldiers have always done that.
I'd be willing to bet even with the Armored Humvees they will still be doing their own upgrades.
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Air.. not too many guys will admit they were wrong even when it's glaringly obvious.
As for "looking hard", one Google of "national guard disability benefits" will list the VA site that delineates those benefits as the first item. ;)
At least now you know why you didn't get much response the first time you posted.
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seems like a lot of people are going by what their countries "unbiased" news sources tell em to bgelieve.
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
At least now you know why you didn't get much response the first time you posted.
LOL Ouch. I see you're feeling better again, Toad. :)
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Originally posted by Airhead
Canada is cold- I wouldn't live there if they offered free beer even.
An update on my "expert"- she's an official with the DofD, so I assumed she knew what she was talking about as she discussed the status of DofD employees "drafted" to Iraq. When she launched into the status of NG troops wounded in action I had assumed she knew what she was talking about, but it turns out (after a phone conversation) her info came from a "television news program."
I believed what she was saying, not because I wanted to, but because I thought she was telling the truth and speaking from an informed, and trusted, viewpoint. In absence of collaborative evidence (I looked hard too) I withdraw my statement that NG troops aren't afforded the same rights Regular Army troops are should they become disabled.
I apologize for spreading uncollaberated "rumors." The Iraq war is an issue that is near and dear to all of our hearts, and what is needed is the truth, not innuendo and politiking. I withdraw my claims (happily, actually) that NG troops aren't eligible for military disability pensions.
Airhead,
The second half of your statement was also quite interesting. I'm not sure if that's true either but as of late it wouldnt surprise me.
Between enlistments I did get out of the military and worked civil service for a few months. I also work side by side with civs now, and I can't beleive that their union would allow any of that to happen. But, the reason this is beleivable is I have seen the writing on the wall for a long time not FIRST HAND.
The US govt has been using a practice called A76 for some time now. This allows (in a nutshell) federal employees to compete with contractors for there's and active duty jobs that are turning civilian. It's all a big numbers game, if they can free up a GI in a non-combat position by replacing him with a civilian, a rifle company somewere just got one more machnie gunner. This allows the military to boost their numbers without actually breaking their congressionally established manning limits.
So with all this happening the last 10 years it does not surprise me that civilians are being made to go to Iraq.