Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: eskimo2 on December 24, 2004, 06:29:00 AM
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Yesterday I had a discussion about war with my 5 year old daughter. She asked why wars are started. After giving an elementary explanation, she asked about what her grandfather (“Papa”, who lives with us) did during the war (WWII). I explained that there were fighters and bombers. Fighters are made to shoot down bombers and those bombers need gunners to shoot back. Papa’s job was to help teach the new gunners how to shoot at the fighters; he flew a bullet proof plane that the gunners could practice shooting at from another airplane. (More here) (http://www.wwiirt.com/usaaf/william_wilsterman/william_wilsterman.htm) He also towed giant streamers behind his airplane so that the gunners could practice shooting at it. Or, he flew airplanes with gunners who would shoot at the streamers.
Her response to this discussion:
“Wow! War is Great!”
eskimo
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hehe that could explain thinking of some ppl on this BBS :D
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Me thinks the lesson not complete if that was her response :)
Yoda
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Show her a photo of one of the war cemetaries, from normandy or something, let her look at it for a while then explain that each of those little white things symbolises a lost daddy/son/uncle/friend.
Maybe then she will realise war is not so great ;)
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Never great, but sometimes necessary. For example, consider those U.S. military cemetaries in Normandy and what they represent.
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Children at that age react to the enthusiasm, complete knowledge, or lack there of, in story telling when they make their opinion known of something they know nothing of, therefore I would say she reacted to your tone and knowledge rather than the content itself.
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After a good laugh, I went on to explain that both good and bad people die in wars, even civilians and soldiers who were forced to fight. She got the point.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
After a good laugh, I went on to explain that both good and bad people die in wars, even civilians and soldiers who were forced to fight. She got the point.
eskimo
so she must be awsome then... when i tried to explain that to several ppl here, they still belive that war is cool way to go.
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Originally posted by lada
so she must be awsome then... when i tried to explain that to several ppl here, they still belive that war is cool way to go.
Actually, the entire discussion stemmed from the song: War (What is it good for). She had just heard it. The beginning of the discussion/explanation was on how some wars start.
eskimo
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"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." R.E. Lee
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war is one of the most terrible things a human can come up with... be it two people or a world..
There is only one thing worse than war and that is tyranny. be it two people or a world.
lazs
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This is probably my favorite war poet: Siegfried Sassoon. The poem's a/b WWII
Suicide in the Trenches
I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
SSCP, p. 78
© George Sassoon
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lada... no one here likes war or, at least I don't think they do but... your country is free right now. would you go to war to keep it that way? It would appear that you are enjoying the sacrafices made by rough men.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
war is one of the most terrible things a human can come up with... be it two people or a world..
There is only one thing worse than war and that is tyranny. be it two people or a world.
lazs
That is a great sumary of why war is sometimes justified.
eskimo
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Many of u her consider me a "war monger," however I hvae been concerned that the USA gets involved in too many wars and too easily over the last decade because it seemed so easy - a few heroes fell, cnn did its tribute, the president gave his speech over the fallen and we have a taense TV night as they fish out some unlucky pilot who got tagged by a sam behind enemy lines - thats all over in a few weeks - war with all glory no cost - even a fun CNN nightvison bombing hour. Tragically I must say that in sime ways this iraq experince is agood reminder for us all that war has serious costs as we near 1500 dead in combat and the casualty reports of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or more dying daily become almost commonplace - imagine that back in the 1990s.. :(
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Children at that age react to the enthusiasm, complete knowledge, or lack there of, in story telling when they make their opinion known of something they know nothing of, therefore I would say she reacted to your tone and knowledge rather than the content itself.
Kinda like Rip when old GW says something ;)
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Originally posted by eskimo2
That is a great sumary of why war is sometimes justified.
eskimo
yes people who rise agains tyrany should get support.
Do we have sutch cases ?
Or its simply game, when we claim, that some country live in tyrany, so we must destroy their infrastructure and throw country into the chaos ?
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Originally posted by lazs2
lada... no one here likes war or, at least I don't think they do but... your country is free right now. would you go to war to keep it that way? It would appear that you are enjoying the sacrafices made by rough men.
lazs
umm before someone will try to convice me, that the only one way, how to get rid of tyrany is war, i would like to remind you , that i live in country whitch:
Removed communist goverment with out war or ambush or any military action.
And our country did split 2 years later w/o any single military or civil conflict.
i think that somebody(in this thead) already pointed on fact, that stay open for countries whitch have some problems and let trade and people travell will result in influence and changes.
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.." (1868) -John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
Still holds true today.
Removed communist goverment with out war or ambush or any military action.
Your wrong. There was PLENTY of Military action. And plenty of good men who paid the ultimate price.
And I remind you Sir, that the only reason that open war did not happen was because MEN stood ready to do terrible violence.
The price of peace and freedom is eternal vigilance. Wars develop when embers are allowed to smolder and not extinguished. Peace is an illusion only the public can afford. Doubt that, Travel to Fort Bragg North Carolina and see the Memorial Wall at USASOC, HQ. The one with all the names of USASOC soldiers killed in "Peacetime Operations". Operation Iraqi Freedom has a long way to go before it even comes close, those names make a very tiny addition to a sobering memorial.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Still holds true today.
Your wrong. There was PLENTY of Military action. And plenty of good men who paid the ultimate price.
Name me one, whitch has been related to coup in our country.
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Originally posted by lada
Name me one, whitch has been related to coup in our country.
Idiot. Wait, that's you, and your'e still alive, guess we were wrong...
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yes im alive, come and fix it
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Name me one, whitch has been related to coup in our country.
First what is your country? If it is the Soviet Union or any of the former Warsaw Pact Nations then:
Everyone who is on that wall and the countless other US/NATO Servicemen who died standing up to the tyranny of the Soviet Union.
If they had not been there, then the Soviets would have never have reached a position of weakness that allowed a coup to be successful.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Her response to this discussion:
“Wow! War is Great!”
yeah great, as long you dont get the bullet between the eyes.
But i doubt a 5 year old understand there is no ESC & Restart button.
Merry Christmas
Gh0stFT
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Originally posted by lazs2
war is one of the most terrible things a human can come up with... be it two people or a world..
There is only one thing worse than war and that is tyranny. be it two people or a world.
lazs
Is your girlfriend starting to boss you around again?
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all women try to boss men around.. it is their nature.
lada... if it was so easy to leave the soviet union then why didn't you do it sooner?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
all women try to boss men around.. it is their nature.
lada... if it was so easy to leave the soviet union then why didn't you do it sooner?
lazs
we attempted several times... it resulted in Liberalization from imperialist for example 1968.
However in 1989 we done it, because president at that time, didnt scream for help to moscow. in 1968 people we sold out by some hardcore czeh communist around goverment. .... However, after 1989, we had plenty of "russian advisors" here ... like you have in Iraq today ... :D
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However, after 1989, we had plenty of "russian advisors" here ... like you have in Iraq today ..
What do you know about what is happening in Iraq? About as much as you know about the history of events surrounding your own country.
Which is not much.
Crumpp
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lada... again... why didn't you simply tell them to go away so that you could drink beer and swim nude? You say that when you tried they said no. They even hurt a few people eh? maybe you lived under tyranny... People all over the world fought and died so that your tyrannical masters would fall from power and you could drink beer and swim nude and tell us what brutes we are for hurting that nice sadam guy.
lazs
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lada... again... why didn't you simply tell them to go away so that you could drink beer and swim nude? You say that when you tried they said no. They even hurt a few people eh? maybe you lived under tyranny...
:eek:
:rofl
:aok
Yeah Think!?! Lada....
Crumpp
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Originally posted by lada
yes im alive, come and fix it
How can your question be answered when you keep it a secret as to where you're from?
....btw....enjoy your freedom.
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Originally posted by lada
yes people who rise agains tyrany should get support.
Do we have sutch cases ?
Or its simply game, when we claim, that some country live in tyrany, so we must destroy their infrastructure and throw country into the chaos ?
No, no no no no!
Any halfway competent tyrant knows how to completely suppress his own people. The formulae have been written for hundreds--if not thousands--of years.
Only external pressure can bring down a tyrant, short of natural death. And we (the collective, world-wide "we") should have learned over the last hundred years or so that allowing tyranny to exist is more dangerous than destroying it. Ask the Armenians, or the Gypsies, or the Jews, or the Kurds, or any of the peoples living in the Balkans about tyranny.
Those that survived will tell you that WE should have done something. That's still the collective, world-wide "we".
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Originally posted by oboe
Never great, but sometimes necessary.
I disagree.
Never necessary imho.
After all what does it ever really solve?
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Originally posted by wombatt
I disagree.
Never necessary imho.
After all what does it ever really solve?
Oh, good grief.
Second World War--solved question of Fascism in Germany and Italy, freed milliions from Naziism.
Punic Wars--removed Carthage as a world power, determined direction of Western civilization for the next 2000 years.
Those are the first two examples off the top of my head. Want more, or are you going to make the specious argument that warfare has never ended War? It must all depend on your definition of "solve".
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Originally posted by rshubert
Oh, good grief.
Second World War--solved question of Fascism in Germany and Italy, freed milliions from Naziism.
Yep as a jew i know all about this
Punic Wars--removed Carthage as a world power, determined direction of Western civilization for the next 2000 years.
Those are the first two examples off the top of my head. Want more, or are you going to make the specious argument that warfare has never ended War? It must all depend on your definition of "solve".
LOL warfare has never ended war? well i quess if there was no war to end then ?
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LOL warfare has never ended war? well i quess if there was no war to end then ?
Wouldn't it be great if we could all just hold hands and sing Kumba-ya!!
:rolleyes:
I agree with the concept that warfare should end, emotionally. If you don't, then your sick.
However to believe that as a practical methodology for a free people to undertake is just plain stupidity.
Until the last predator and political idea that seeks to subvert that which is human is stamped out, violence on the behalf of a free society will be necessary.
Wolves do not stop eating sheep simply because you ask them too. You either submit to the wolf pack and feed them thereby becoming their slave, or you stand up to them answering violence with violence. You either destroy the pack or make things so difficult they find somewhere else to hunt.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Wouldn't it be great if we could all just hold hands and sing Kumba-ya!!
:rolleyes:
I agree with the concept that warfare should end, emotionally. If you don't, then your sick.
However to believe this is a practical methodology for a free people to undertake is just plain stupidity.
Until the last predator and political idea that seeks to subvert that which is human is stamped out, violence on the behalf of a free society will be necessary.
Wolves do not stop eating sheep simply because you ask them too. You either submit to the wolf pack and feed them thereby becoming their slave, or you stand up to them answering violence with violence. You either destroy the pack or make things so difficult they find somewhere else to hunt.
Crumpp
And ofcoures with that attitiude things will never change will they.
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Lada is from czech rep. He equivocates, he doesn't answer. You're wasting your time, he isn't confident enough with any of his "points" to state them directly.
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And ofcoures with that attitiude things will never change will they.
Spoken from an obvious position of comfort and shelter.
Again, I agree with your emotional concept but as a practical reality it is both stupid and silly.
There is never any such thing as a "good war" but there are certainly wars that have "good outcomes". In my book, that is whenever freedom wins out over tyranny.
Unfortunately the vast majority of the world is fortunate to have even a third grade education. They cannot understand how the book can be more powerful than the gun. Especially when they can just shoot the bookholder and take the book.
In the begining it takes another gun staring back at them to estabilish the power of the book.
You obviously have no clue what John Stuart Mills is saying.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.. " (1868) -John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Spoken from an obvious position of comfort and shelter.
Again, I agree with your emotional concept but as a practical reality it is both stupid and silly.
There is never any such thing as a "good war" but there are certainly wars that have "good outcomes". In my book, that is whenever freedom wins out over tyranny.
Unfortunately the vast majority of the world is fortunate to have even a third grade education. They cannot understand how the book can be more powerful than the gun. Especially when they can just shoot the bookholder and take the book.
In the begining it takes another gun staring back at them to estabilish the power of the book.
You obviously have no clue what John Stuart Mills is saying.
Crumpp
Stupid and silly?
Is that what you think the teachings of Jesus Christ and Dr Martin Luther King where stupid and silly?
There only stupid and silly If no one ever decides to put them into practice.
It can be just as easy as saying No I will not kill!
If everyone one in the world would do that indeed there would be no wars.
But ofcoures we do not live in a perfect world there are very bad people out there more than wiling to take advantage of those they percieve as week.
I am just saying that I find the irony in the fact that as a species we are so develoved yet we act no smarter than some animales at times.
It really makes you wonder dont it?
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Stupid and silly?
Is that what you think the teachings of Jesus Christ and Dr Martin Luther King where stupid and silly?
Where in my post do you see me saying the teachings of Christ are silly? If you read the bible, God is a big advocate of war against injustice.
And a great tactician.
I am just saying that I find the irony in the fact that as a species we are so develoved yet we act no smarter than some animales at times.
I do too. Wish things were different. It is a shame good decent men with families have to put their lives at risk to stop those who prey on the weak.
It's also a shame that many without the fortitude to stand on that line constantly seek to find fault from a position of safety. Thank God those men are willing to die for others freedom to express their opinion. No matter how ill informed.
yet we act no smarter than some animales at times.
Much worse than animals sometimes. What animal kills by strapping another of its species to a bunk and drips acid on their head so that it takes hours of extreme pain to die horribly disfigured?
The kind that wants to grow its cocaine in South America.
What animal hangs those of it's own kind up by their feet and slowly peels their skin off from the ankles to the torso? Then laughs as they poke the poor soul with a stick to hear him scream and struggle? All the while filming the whole thing with a surreal festive air.
The kind that wants trophy's to trade at the market in the Middle East so that their local power can be increased.
Cuts innocent heads off slowly with a dull knife so that it takes 6-10 minutes for them to die?
The kind that wants rule others through a perversion of Religion.
Everywhere you look, their are innocents in need of those with the strength of will and character to stand up and defend the defenseless.
Everywhere you look you can also find some unbelievable acts of courage and good. Without a doubt there is great hope for mankind.
God gave us freewill just as he gave all men a choice.
If these predators had their way with the world what do you think they would choose?
Do you think God would send lighting bolts from the sky to stop them?
Or do you think he would work thru men, by giving them the strength to stand up to such tyranny?
It really makes you wonder dont it?
Yes it does.
Crumpp
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wombat... put them into practice? no problem... come at me in peace and don't ask anything of me and you will never see my gun.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
no problem... come at me in peace and don't ask anything of me and you will never see my gun.
lazs
What? I fully expect to be firing your guns if we meet. Is that priviledge only extended to Beet1e?
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Ok... change that to... unless you want to.
lazs
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ok..that's better. Should give you a good chuckle at least...it did for Rip, Swoop and Puck.
Actually what I need is instruction and I think you'd be the right man for the job.
:aok
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Crumpp I serverd my country when I was young so its has nothing to do with the "guts to fight" or not.
It is my beliefe that it takes more of a man to turn the other cheek.
Thats all i'm saying.
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ok curval... no problem, I will do what I can but.... I am just a tad curious as to why so many rabid anti gunners all want me to teach em how to shoot... and (I think I know the answer to this one tho) why they all seem to enjoy themselves immensly while they are shooting guns that they think should be banned from everyone else...
lazs
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1. Why do I want you to teach me? Because from what I have read you are the most qualified.
2. Why do I enjoy something that I feel should be banned? I have only ever advocated a BAN in my own country, but "when in Rome"....
I've never advocated a ban in the US....ever.
Shooting guns is enjoyable. I could do so just by joining a club here...and I have been offered a chance to shoot an MP5 by a cop on the ERT here recently, which I WILL take him up on.
I have shot Uzis, Rugers, M16s, got to shoot a Galille (sp?) [Isreali weapon] and was actually "assigned" to the GPMG for our platoon when I was in the local regiment. Handguns were only for officers...I work(ed) for a living. ;) Never got to fire one and never received any instruction on how to shoot one properly.
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Originally posted by lazs2
People all over the world fought and died so that your tyrannical masters would fall from power
Nope..way off...as usual.
most of the communist leaders simply burned their red books, went undertground, and used their contacts and influence to re-emerge as capitalist pioneers throughout the former USSR.
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ah... redbottom the superspy... so you are saying that lada land is still under the iron fist of soviet rule? but what of the beer and nude swimming?
curval... sorry... you are right and have every right to want to shoot here and I would be glad to give you the opportunity to fire a variety of handguns. I allways look forward to taking people out shooting... especially first timers and even more so.... those who are frightened or by firearms or feel that they should just go away.
I have never so far taken anyone out shooting who did not have a good time. Can you name any activity that has that success rate? Peoples instincts are true... they realize that they hold in their hand the tool of equality.
lazs
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Crumpp I serverd my country when I was young so its has nothing to do with the "guts to fight" or not.
BULL****!!!
"Serving" your country has NOTHING to DO with it.
The vast majority of those in uniform are serving their country in vital important jobs. Jobs that in the end though are no more dangerous than than any found in the civilian world.
Clerks, Computer repairmen, carpenters, fuel handlers, and hundreds of other support jobs make up more than 80% of those serving in uniform.
There is a huge difference between them and the less than 20 percent whose job is to close with and destroy the enemy.
If you have ever stood on the line, facing a real enemy, then you would know this is not only an intellectual truth but a ground reality.
Crumpp