Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Janov on December 25, 2004, 05:55:35 PM
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I used to enjoy driving PT-Boats, but lately they have become pretty useless to me.
1.) one 5 inch shell passing anywhere in the vicinity - they go boom (unrealistic!)
2.) cant aim torpedoes anymore, because after a turn they keep heading-slewing (very minutely) for minutes, so I cant check relative motion of target
3.) no good as a gun platform, especially against fighters. They rock so bad from the recoil that accurate aim is impossible - while all the planes in AH are incredibly accurate gunplatforms (unrealistic).
4.) what are the rockets for?? How do you aim them accurately?
Just some food for thought, here...
Litjan
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Yep
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Rockets are mostly used for rank.
You find a spawn point that is next to a dead base or factory, lob your rockets in. Repeat once a month, they and torpedos are the only things that count for "hit %" in GVs in the bottom category.
I don't think I've been in one since AH2 came out, but the 40mm on the back used to be pretty good for killing fighters.
Killing carriers with one will be pretty tough since most CV groups have more people in the 5 inch guns then they do in the air.
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while all the planes in AH are incredibly accurate gunplatforms (unrealistic)
I love when people make these kinds of statements. Like they are some authority on the subject, yet provide no proof of what they claim, nor of their expertise on the subject.
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i sink cv's regularly with he from pt boat.
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And one strafing pass from a fighter and 70 foot combat vessel goes boom.
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aiming torps just takes practice, and i generally aim mine in a "spread" pattern, with the cv group JUST to the edge of my screen unzoomed. (ish)
The #6 gun will kill most anything w/ wings with one hit. Learn it, and them pesky fighters will not be an issue. W/ practice you can nail 'em 3k out.
#6 gun ALSO is good to gun down the CV group (and towns). One pt can kill a cruiser easily w/ the #6 gun. Just stay out of ack range. Takes 3-4 hops to nail the flat top tho'. I generally go for the cruiser, then maybe one of the small support ships. Once they are out of the way, I will then go for the Carrier. After you've killed some of the guns on the Carrier, you can use rockets, and the other guns and get in close.
When you 1st pull on the trigger, you will get some climb on the gun. If you hold it down, it lvl's out and you can aim quite well. If you let off the trigger, you have to do it over again.
I've HIT cv's w/ the rockets, just not often. Like prev. said, they are mainly for score IMHO.
I rarely use any of the other guns in a pt.
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Slapshot,
I have never flown a plane with armament, but I have several hundred hours in small single and twinengine propplanes (both piston and turboprop), with several thousand hours in 737s and 747-400s. I assure you that on 95% of the flying days you will find it very difficult to impossible to put your crosshair on a single spot on the ground (like during a AH2-strafingrun, with accuracy measured in a few feet) and keep it there for more than 1/2 second, with all the vibration from airflow and engine, trimchanges from acceleration, and most important lowlevel turbulence while barreling in at 300mph+.
Litjan
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Originally posted by Janov
Slapshot,
I have never flown a plane with armament, but I have several hundred hours in small single and twinengine propplanes (both piston and turboprop), with several thousand hours in 737s and 747-400s. I assure you that on 95% of the flying days you will find it very difficult to impossible to put your crosshair on a single spot on the ground (like during a AH2-strafingrun, with accuracy measured in a few feet) and keep it there for more than 1/2 second, with all the vibration from airflow and engine, trimchanges from acceleration, and most important lowlevel turbulence while barreling in at 300mph+.
Litjan
Well ... I have never flown a plane ergo, I have never fired from a plane either so we are even there. I can appreciate your experience in the air tho.
I have seen dozens upon dozens of guncam footage of P-51s, P-47s, etc straffing ground targets and from what I have seen, these guys had no problems destroying planes, vehicles and trains (on the move). There were more aircraft destroyed on the ground than there ever was destroyed in the air, so straffing was quite prevelant and highly successful. If the gun platform was that bad, then those numbers would not have been as high as they were nor as strickingly successful.
There are numerous WW II fighter pilots that never achieved the "ace" moniker, but were responsible for destroying many aircraft on the ground ... some in the 100s of destroyed aircraft/vehicles.
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Yes, I have seen those guncamfilms, too. Some were even destroying several parked aircraft in one run. Yet it doesnīt take many hits to destroy an aircraft, and even though these guys were getting very close on their runs, still many rounds miss the targets. It seemed more like a general spraying into the row of aircraft, and with several hundred rounds per minute from several barrels you will get some impressive results.
The quotes from many WW2 pilots as to the accuracy of airial (is that spelled correctly?) gunnery where along the lines of "get as close as you can, then some closer, then fire or you will miss most rounds and only alert the enemy" (even though there were some exceptionally good at longrange marksmanship).
In addition we veteran AH2-pilots have multiple times the experience of real WW2-pilots, so gunnery (especially deflection shots or adding superelevation) is that much more easier for us.
Litjan
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The point was not destruction but rather do the AH airplanes accurately portray the same type of gun platform as those that flew during WW II.
Your standpoint is that they are much easier and steadier than their RL counterparts. I believe that they do, especially when I have tried to make strafing runs on convoys and seem to have a harder time laying down a nice strafing line like those that I have seen in some P-47 guncam footage.
Take up a P-47 and go look for a supply convoy (one that is not doing 600 mph) and tell me how easy it is for you to take out all the trucks. Time yourself and tell me how long it took you to take out all the trucks. Take a guess at what percentage of hits were you landing and let me know.
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The question is how many bullets do I need to put into a truck to make it explode. If the task is to put like 30 rounds into a truck to disable it (which I think will not suffice in AH2) I can probably take out the whole convoy in one strafing run. The thing making it difficult here is leading the convoy for its speed, adding superelvation for bullet drop and the convergence setting. AH portrays those aspects of gunnery very well. So a barrage from a plane with wingmounted cannons looks a lot like the guncams, due to the convergence-spray and pitch changes as people hunt for the right elevation. The hits are on and all around the target. But if you take a plane like a p38 or bf110 with fuselagemounted guns then the bullets will all fall into a tiny spot when I think in reality they would disperse over a wider area.
So to return to the origin of this discussion: Most of the planes in the MA will be able to take out the PT-Boat with a short, wellaimed burst (I have done so many times myself), while the PT-Boat is rolling and swaying in the sea, having a lot of trouble to put the crosshairs on the target long enough to do some damage. If thatīs the way it was in real life than its fine with me. But I think it wasnīt so (if there even where many engagements between fighterplanes and PT-Boats) or wouldnīt have been so.
Litjan
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I can probably take out the whole convoy in one strafing run
I'll bet you can't ... Take a P-47 and do it and film it ... I would love to see it.
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PT boats? useless?!
Far from it. Most people just do not know how to use them.
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Why is it that 90% of all pt boat sorties were at night?
A PT boats were sitting ducks for airplanes. A good burst of guns set the fuel tanks on fire. Remember they were running on AV gas. With nothing between the tanks & enemy aircraft but wood it had to have happened a lot.
B PT boats were sitting ducks for anything 20mm & up shooting from a ship, ESPECIALLY 5" guns. In daylight a 5" gun could kill the pt long before the PT could shoot back. Early PT's had virtually NO armour. They relied on speed, stealth & suprise.
One thing we are missing is the ability to produce smoke. From what I've seen on PT's via the History Channel etc, we have the best of them.
Early PT's did NOT have the 37mm forward & the 40mm aft. They did have the 4 torp tupes. Later versions pulled 2 of the tubes, added the guns & used them for "barge busting" details.
Later yet the tupe launching system was changed for a simple roll off rack. That cut a LOT of weight off with its resulting increase in speed.
PT's do very well at night/low light conditions esp when several attack at once.
They don't do so well as in a single david vs goliath attack role.
PT boats are fine in AH. Although I wouldn't mind a few varients. :)
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Sorry for the delay in answering, I was out of town for 2 days.
@ Slapshot:
If you quote me, please dont take parts of the sentence out of context. I started with "If..." . So there is no way of filming it, then counting to see if each truck was hit by 30 bullets. I also didnt say a P47 could do it, because of convergence factors, maybe a 110 or P38 could. Then there is the problem of the winding roads in AH, the convoy wont run straight long enough for a good strafing run. Even then, maybe I couldnt (its a long convoy traveling very fast), but thats not the point. The point is that one can still point the crosshair on a certain spot on the ground with too much accuracy.
@Ghost:
I agree with the majority of your points. I also wish a "real" night was introduced in AH, not the semi-night we had, were everything was just as visible, only darker. But that wouldnt please the furball-hordes, so whatever.
But the lethality of the 5inchers against the PTs is very high with that proximity fusing of the shells, to me it feels too high (I am no authority on the subject) and it renders the PT without chance against a manned CV. It would be okay if a direct hit kills the PT, but just shooting 100 feet over its head and waiting for that little black puff is too easy.
Litjan
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"It would be okay if a direct hit kills the PT, but just shooting 100 feet over its head and waiting for that little black puff is too easy."
Granted! Couldn't agree more actually!
5" guns should be forced to switch to HE to actually damage PT boats.
Considering that any 5" AA shell is going to be fired with at least SOME arc. When the shell is armed as soon as it gets within100 feet of the ocean it should explode.
Granted thats a airburst 5" round that works pretty good at killing planes. But it should NOT kill PT boats.
I don't have an easy answer for how to prevent it.
However, at longer ranges, AA rounds fired flat should detonate before reaching the target. The radar should "see" the ocean & explode it.
At closer ranges, AA rounds should not yet be armed. So at best there would only be a very small area where A 5" round would be effective vs PT's.
Anyone have actuall data on how low 5" shells could be fired over water without it detonating prematurely?
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The PT boats, MGB, MTB are basically made of wood, when you compare it to a 5 inch AAA shell think tinfoil and since there was no overhead protection, open cockpit, exposed gunnery positions the shrapnel from the shell could take out the majority of the crew with a near miss.
The PT,MTB,MGB all used high octane aviation fuel and a piece of hot shrapnel into a fueltank could result in a loud bang or at the very good possibilityof a severe shipboard fire, under combat with someone shooting at you.
The hull and deck were basically made of wood with some armor plating added to try and protect the bridge and in other significant areas.
German Eboats were better armed and armoured and had diesel engines, so the flash fire effect associated with Aviation fuel was absent.
Using AAA/AA and heavier guns against coastal forces (PT,MGB,MTB) was a perfectly accepted doctrine in any Naval force, since the Boats were very vulnerable to any damage and the crews were the most vulnerable and a PT almost doesn't have the neccessary mass to actually activate the delayed fuse on the AP shell, unless you struck an engine or gun mounting.
"Granted thats a airburst 5" round that works pretty good at killing planes. But it should NOT kill PT boats. "
See above comment.
Even if the shells were not to arm at closer range (AAA) the shells still can be considered solid shot and would be garaunteed to make it an exceedingly bad day to be in a PT boat, should one strike your plywood boat.
Even land forces have used shrapnel shells (both designed and the improvised use of AA/AAA) to take out troops and since a PT,MTB,MGB cannot fight effectively or at all without a crew, the use of a 5 inch AAA shell would be a viable option to take care of a close in torpedo attack or gun attack in the case of an MGB (Motor Gun Boat, British).
PTs and the like were generally used against enemy shipping which was either escorted by an armed trawler or obsolete destroyer/corvette or PT's,MGB,MTB or were hugging the shoreline and moving at night, hardly if ever during the day.
To go up against a Battle Group was the height of foolishness or desperation and immediately draw a lot of unwelcome attention.
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PT boats to me a just a diversion, something different to do in a pinch. I resign myselft to the fact that I am going to die in a PT boat just try and see how many I can take with me. I have been lucky and sank a cv before. This only because it was traversing our spawn point. Any other attempts I have made on approaching a task group has led to death. I cant recall any sortie in a PT that I successfully landed. Im sure it must have happened at least once but I cant remember when.
Muttman
Sick Puppies
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Hmmm, I just had an idea:D
What if we had supply transports and landing craft and make it a joint effort with a Battle Group or they could go it alone once the air wing has suppressed the field/town. Arm them in a manner consistent with the WWII time frame almost all of it light AA/AAA and make th eguns mannable.
Just think about it, M3's and Panzers, Tigers, T34, LVT's hitting the shore line to take a base or a port, imagine a surprise attack with GVs and troops seemingly coming out of nowhere, no base near the shore would be safe. Even a pure supply run to a base that is cut off from goons and M3's.
Give the PT boats something to do, more in keeping with thier intended purpose and even give the Naval/Army air wing something else to torpedo or bomb and PT boats to escort them.
Of course you might need a slightly longer period of near darkness (night would be preferred) but it is another avenue to possibly explore and even a Battle Group could go looking for them.
What do you guys think.....
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I agree that the PT-Boats are very lightly armored, but as Ghost also said: They shouldnt set off the proximity fuse from the 5inch guns. If one takes a direct hit its over, no doubt about that. But as it is now, no amount of weaving will save you from the proximity shells, and they kill you at 3-4k...
I like the idea of the assault landing, Leayme. I just think it would be difficult to find enough players willing to do one at the same time, but if it could be launched like a misssion...
And, of course, we need a better way to land kills in a PT-Boat, right now its next to impossible (unless you want to chase your own CV-group for a few hours to catch up).
Litjan
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Well, realistically speaking, a PT boat should not even be near enemy ships of that strength in the first place.
I do agree that the PT boats do need a better target though...
What could be added in the game that the PT would be considered an 'efficient vehicle' to attack with??
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Merchant shipping.
Troop transports
Landing Barges
Although some of these did shoot back, the PT had at least close to even odds. And could avoid incoming fire with good driving.
As to the 5" shells, my point was they should be going off 100' up in the air!
AND, they should go off anytime they "see" something 100 feet in front of the shell.
So on a typical trajectory to an object as low in the water as a PT boat.
The shells should be going off both 100' feet up and well ahead of the boat..
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I was browsing thru some bookmarked pages and I found this gem detailing proximity fuses.
http://www.smecc.org/radio_fuzes.html
"The burst range for a 5 inch shell is 70 yards"
Which means a shell burst a hundred feet away is in the lethal envelope and if you are out side the 210 feet you stand a better chance of flying away.
Notice the use of this type of proximity fuze against aircraft in WWII (1943 onwards) and the "Claimed" unreasonable performance in AH2 and I would say that the as it is currently modelled is just about bang on.
Further down is reference to its use in the battle of the bulge, in the anti personnel role.....OUCH:eek:
Difficulties early in testing of this type of fuze against low flying torpedo planes were addressed. Signals returns from waves when the shell was fired at low trajectories could also trigger the fuze prematurely and even prevent the fuze from arming. To over come this a circuit was devised, known as the wave suppresion feature to reduce the sensitivity of the fuze to spurious wave noise also known as an automatic valve control. (MK58 fielded in November of 1944 USN)
Based on this fact, the 5 inch AAA shell are working just as they should when they get a bigger radar return off a PT boat or low flying aircraft, versus the spurious signal from a wave top and exploding in close proximity to the target.
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my beef with PT's is that they ALWAYS explode, NEVER sink---some dumbarse suicides into ur guns...he falls to earth whilst you are already in tower..dead
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Originally posted by Janov
Slapshot,
I have never flown a plane with armament, but I have several hundred hours in small single and twinengine propplanes (both piston and turboprop), with several thousand hours in 737s and 747-400s. I assure you that on 95% of the flying days you will find it very difficult to impossible to put your crosshair on a single spot on the ground (like during a AH2-strafingrun, with accuracy measured in a few feet) and keep it there for more than 1/2 second, with all the vibration from airflow and engine, trimchanges from acceleration, and most important lowlevel turbulence while barreling in at 300mph+.
Litjan
We definitely dont have the level of turbulance in real aircraft modeled here, much of it becuase it would make 99% of those sitting behind the monitor Ill. There is a good amount of bullet trajectory variance built in however, as thats all that really matters in the end. If it didnt bounce the bullets around Id be putting my rounds into the hatch on the tanks turrets!:D
One thing you need to take into account is the fact taht we have no fatiuge, no G forces to contend with so this makes it easier to be consistent, but the MOST important issue is experience. Ive got more experience in AH that Chuck Yeager could ever hope for, and even more than most Luftwaffa pilots that flew constantly. If you take a new player and put him in the MA, he cant hit jack crap for the 1st month....and thats at 1-2 hours a day with numerous engagements per hour. The average WWII pilot had fewer engagements in their career than we get in a few months.