Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on December 27, 2004, 11:05:34 PM
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These is really a spin off from the "duplicate squad" thread...but I wanted to post it here so it wasnt buried. Basically the question is one of "respect" and perspective. As a 10 yr vet my perceptions are shaped by my "upbringing" within the game. As a general rule I guess I dont have much respect for a majority of the "new" breed and that probably transfers to the squads they belong to as well. This may or may not be unfair....but in the time and place I "grew up" in the elite squads (nomads, damned, dead etc) often split up and stomped on themselfs if the competition wasnt good enough at that moment. "Chivalry" existed and there was a legitimate "code of conduct"....
So.....
When someone from the "new school" whines about respect related issues I can only laugh, sigh and longly remember the good old days. I've got an awful lot more respect for guys like shane who still live and fly by the code (even if he IS a whiney little snot:)) then any 100 digital dirt movers.....
However, my views are simply mine and nothing more and if my comments in the other thread are/were taken in a personal manner you have my sincere appologies....no personal attacks are intended....I simply have no respect for how you choose to play the game.
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i hope you are not so set in your ways as to ignore the new comers who do understand and follow the code.
that would make you equal to the 'dirt movers' in my opinion, except add old and moody to that...
ive been online flight simming for 1.5 years, so i cannot possibly know what honour and sportsmanship are, er, ok, i get ya :aok .
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As one of those Nomads that Humble has mentioned a couple of times, I appreciate the nice words.
At the same time, we learned from the vets we saw doing it right and tried to pass it on too.
Each wave through a flight sim learns it from the folks who got there before them and hopefully sends it on to the following wave.
My experience in AH has been a good one in terms of the people. The AH vets have been more then receptive to this relative newbie to AH
I do think that sometimes just the sheer numbers prevents some of the same kind of community thriving as it doesn't take too many mouths to ruin things when folks try and talk on the open channel. It gets easier to avoid it and stick to the squad channels and country channels too.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by humble
....but in the time and place I "grew up" in the elite squads (nomads, damned, dead etc) often split up and stomped on themselfs if the competition wasnt good enough at that moment. "Chivalry" existed and there was a legitimate "code of conduct"....
Some of the best fights I have ever had have been versus squaddies. Funny thing is, I can remember seeing the same stuff talked about in AW 14 years ago. The big difference is the bigger number of users here. Personally, I see it as much ado about nothing. :)
Actually, what Tiff said about numbers holds a great deal of validity. In AW as the numbers increased, it became more about squads and less about the game community as a whole. I guess it's all part of "big town vs small town".
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Your grey hair is showing humble. I grew up over the fence. Over there you had the 352nd, the 4th, the 56th and the 31st to name a few good guy squads that would just bust your chops in the main.
Different time zone entirely. Mix it up and kick your *** is a thing of the past. I know what your talking about, I walk with a cane also. It was the best. A slice of the good times.
Don't judge from the past. Somewhere along the line the mantle wasn't passed. That's unfortunate but the blame is up the line not on those present.
Bustin chops comes with a liability that is more than most are willing to put on the line at the present time.
But that's the way it is. Somebody dropped the ball. It's a loss that can't be explained, an edge, an experience that's never seen.
Not getting to that "space" where it's the best that it can be, where time slows down, where it's burned into your memory is what I find so sad.
You HAVE to go there to come out the other side.
Sooooo many don't.
They're missing it, and in effect don't have a concept of what they're actually missing.
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all that needs to be done is do away with 90% of the strat features and do away with score completely.
I imagine when you guys were first flying Online Flight Sims, everyone was only interested in one thing, finding another plane to fight with.
if there was no one around to fight, then fight each other.
71 squadron RAF, my squadron, does this on a regular basis, we go DA and mix it up when MA is dead. It's a squad where myself and a couple others are the only ones who even played in AH1, the rest are new to it. But they all love the fight, love the rush, love the kill, love the firery death.
the most important thing we can do, as newbies or 15 year vets, is to keep the spirit alive within ourselves, not let the influx of air quakers and shed bashers stop our fun.
There are many, many good guys who are recent additions, and still many more flock in each week.
I see your point Humble, but i think you're being to grouchy about it. embrace the old feelings again, draw them up from your soul and you will find the satisfaction you are looking for in the MA.
remember, any problem that dweels within ones mind for too long becomes a reality for that person very quickly.
Old Budhist proverb:
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if you smoke your pipe, and believe it will eventually harm your body, then it shall.
if you smoke your pipe and believe it can do you no harm, it shall not.
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never underestimate the power our minds have on our enjoyment of all things in life.
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Most of you who posted here are the generation before me in AW - I didn't show up until June of 97 in the game. Even then I saw there some of what we see here now. The difference there was that there was an active training corps to pass it down the line. I got some of it and am glad I did - it makes this game so much better.
When I converted over to AH I got caught a couple of times in the nostalgia rut and spent my time complaining about the current crop of players. Time that I wasted in the game. I'm going to spend more time in the TA - I don't know much but maybe what I do know I can pass down the line to pay back those that taught me. It's a start.
Cheers,
asw
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Originally posted by detch01
The difference there was that there was an active training corps to pass it down the line. I got some of it and am glad I did - it makes this game so much better.
Cheers,
asw
We have a WINNER!
While it is good to involve the community in the training process it is a mistake to solely rely on the community to do all of the training.
ack-ack
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I learned everything about honor, integrity, and respect from my parents and grand-parents. These attributes must be part of your personal fabric and if you don' already have these attributes before you start playing any game, it will rear its ugly head very quickly for all to see.
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what? train em to kill toolsheds?
lazs
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Respect and honor are two important things when it comes to gaming. Games are about having fun and online games arnt just about YOU having fun but also the pilot on the other side.
It is important that both pilots have fun or a one will mostlikely not play anymore and eventually there will be no one to fight.
Further it imho is pure human decensy to not have fun at cost of others but together with others.
This said the strive for honor, respect and fair play cant go overboard.
When I used to play Jumpgate there was a very big strive to have fair and honorable gameplay. That was all good but imho that strive went way to far.
The strive to have fair gameplay went so far that a 9v10 fight was unfair. It was lame ganking.
Setting a trap for someone was lame. Basicly any usage of tactics other then a heads up fight with exactly equal numbers became frown upon. (Im exhaduarting abit, but it wasnt far from this).
What this did was it took away alot of the tactical and strategical aspect of combat.
In situations where one side was outnumbered people started to demand that they be offered a duel. A duel where everyone else would just sit and watch.
Since it is a 3 faction game it happened more often then not that the 3rd side would come in unaware of the situation and start shooting. People beeing AFK due to all the waiting surounding the duel would get shot down. Fleets would get totally disorganized. People beeing called lamers and screaming because the duel was interupted.
There is a ballance between having fun at someones expence and deploying solid tactics.
But it is for the vets to carry on the tradition of the game and mentor the new pilots. It may sound like a cliche but new pilots dont know better until told so.
If a new pilot sees a vet vulching then he will vulch. If a new pilot sees a vet trash talk after a fight then he will trash talk. ect ect
If new pilots and new squads are viewed as "hopeless cases that better be ignored" then they will be hopeless cases. Trust me most new pilots dont play to lame and they are willing to be gentle men but just dont know how.
Also since the learning curve is so high of this game and there are so many darn good pilots around they are happy to get a kill any way they can. If they arnt trained, thought and mentored they will be happy to take the cheap kill and it will be the only way they know how to get one.
What Im saying is that its very much in the hands of the vets how the noobs turn out.
If the new generation of pilots isnt as respectable as the old generation its not their fault. Its not them to blame. Its actually the inadequacy of the vets in the area of mentoring that is the cause.
I dont mean this as a flame of you or any vet inperticular. But many vets, in any game, tend to sit on a very high horse and dont reach down to take up a new guy to join em in the sadle. They keep lookin down, swearing and whining about how things where better in the good old days.
Tex
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I started flying AW 93/94, and the shift occurred, IMO, with Gamestorm and the BIG PORK. Gameplay remained somewhat constant with the move to AOL, and I took part in the initial Gamestorm "Big Week" crash fest mission, with an additional 1-2 sorties in the beta arena, then took a year off. My first experience on return was following a high P-51 x2 sectors into the "rear" waiting for him to engage. He eventually died to ack on a lone bombing run at an undefended field with no practical value of any sort while I watched trying to catch him in his dive. A year previous and he would have engaged -- not might have engaged -- would have engaged.
I quickly found that this was the way the game was played now, with groups of milkrunners off in separate corners on the huge map avoiding anything but the highest favorable odds and porking the fuel away from any resistance at least two sectors deep. A2G and the "War" was more important than A2A in a game where A2G had consistently been nothing more than a means to more A2A previously (at least in FR, can't comment on RR).
Obviously, the big change was numbers. IMO, the earlier game was populated by people who had a passion for WW2 aerial combat, and were willing to pay the dues to emulate their heroes of that conflict. For example, by 7th grade I could rattle off the top speed of most of the famous fighters of WW2. My first big save-up purchase as a kid was Edward Jablonski's "Airwar" which had taunted me from the publications section of Wings and Airpower magazines for several years. And regardless of the overwhelming contribution of strategic and tactical bombing, and the support role of A2A fighters, it was the A2A combat that captured the imagination. Bong, Hartmann, McGuire, Foss, O’Hare, MCCampbell, Boyington, Tuck, Bader, Galland, Rudel -- all names I knew well before I entered High School (and I’m sure I was not alone).
The dues were spending a year learning to get a consistent positive k/d in an environment populated with sharks who knew e-management and had tuned situational awareness far beyond the AI in some boxed game. Tough, ego bruising stuff, but worth the effort if you wanted to be a virtual Robert Johnson. I think the game is populated today with gamers who have, at best, a limited appreciation for history beyond the occasional show on discovery wings. An LA-7 is nothing more than a plasma cannon, the Tempest a BFG9000, the MC202 a pistol. Success is measured by winning the war, with the ego is protected by achieving the bigger goal (a base capture and a few vulch kills with a bunch of buddies) rather than winning a hard dogfight.
AH has now arrived at the big pork. It is still easier to find a fight than the big pork days of AW -- still a higher percentage of fun factor -- but it can be discouraging. I don’t have any real disrespect for the new “gamers” but I suppose I do wonder about their choice of game. AH is the Ferrari of virtual WW2 A2A combat simulators, but the strategic component is nothing more than steamroller tic/tac/toe - a Yugo by comparison. There are numerous war games and “god” games out there that provide much better strategic gameplay. Hell, online chess is readily available and is much more sophisticated. It probably gets back to the ego thing there too. Those tend to be 1v1 games (without the gang of buddies to help) and when you lose, you got beat.
Charon
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Originally posted by lazs2
what? train em to kill toolsheds?
lazs
Yeah Laz - exactly that. And just just because I want to get your respect. :rolleyes:
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Hmmmmm.....
I am hearing some very good points in this thread. I came from the AW community since its inception. Stayed true to one squadron and eventually became their CO.
I am finding some of the things about gangbanging discouraging. There are times (squad nights) when my squadron wants to get bases and take land....it is fun for alot of us guys and involves planning and execution. With that being said...I dont like getting in with the mass green hoarde. In fact, I stay away from it.
I am also finding it hard to get some good 1v1 fights in. Perhaps its the times I log on or perhaps there are none.
Unfortunately when you get the chance to encounter a good dogfite there usually is someone there to spoil it. It happens on all sides of the fight.
When I engage someone (provided its not the 50 plane cluster flock) I ask if there is anyone fighting them. Lotta times someone has a grudge against said "KI84" or "DAMN SPITTY"...Ill let em have it. I also ask if guys need help. This doesnt happen much.
Anyhow my observations. I dont think the dueling arena is any better because the last 5 times I have been there it has been a gaggle.
Best wishes to all!
:aok
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I learned everything about honor, integrity, and respect from my parents and grand-parents. These attributes must be part of your personal fabric and if you don' already have these attributes before you start playing any game, it will rear its ugly head very quickly for all to see.
I was going to make some remarks about vets who don't have respect for new guys, but then I saw this.
<<<>>> SlapShot
PS. you guys - unless you treat sick animals - are not really vets. You just have been plaing a game for a long time. Get off your high white horses and refer to your selfs as long time gamers. If you want respect, you have to give respect. Don;t complain about some one that does not know what YOU did not teach him.
Oh well, I made them anyway, lol
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OucH Dedalos
thats gonna leave a mark on the fabric of thier souls but well said ,should flame well to:D
Vic
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Originally posted by victor
OucH Dedalos
thats gonna leave a mark on the fabric of thier souls but well said ,should flame well to:D
Vic
lol, I have wood and gas. I am waiting for someone with a light. I can feel the heat already.
Where have you been? did you change your name? Haven't seen you in a while.
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Originally posted by dedalos
lol, I have wood and gas.
uuhhhhhh.... nooooo comment, except... some things just shouldn't be shared.
:eek:
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Originally posted by dedalos
If you want respect, you have to give respect. Don;t complain about some one that does not know what YOU did not teach him.
good point Dedalos,
the other night while flying around some base, I made a comment on channel 200, I was being entertained and found it hilarious but I stepped over the line when I made the comment. It was about 2 guys that would dive from say around a 2k+ alt advantage , dive down thru 2 or 3 lower aircraft ( enemy planes ), and dive to the deck having these lower enemy planes rolling in behind them, so now the bandit is lower alt and has 2 or 3 planes on his six, so he proceeds to run directly for the runway at our base. He trys to vulch extends at high speed revs, repeats the vulch run......
well my comment did not take to well, so I thinking I would private message them and politely offer to go work on some tactics with them..I did not want to offer over ch200 because I did not want to look like a big headed arse thinking I was better or anything and/or did not want to show any humiliation toward them.....
the response I got was Rude, hateful and anything else you can imagine, probably would have been different if I had never commented on ch200 to start with. You see alot of times on here where someone will say thanks bro, or hey bro or buddy or what not, well I used the word Bro in my message and that even got ridiculed.....so some are accepting when you offer help, some are to nieve to recognize someone offering to help......
I would much rather spend a few days helping someone that is going to avoid a fight when he is in the crows nest on a perch, than sit back and watch them repeatedly do the same thing over and over 6 straight sorties/flights........
as for the training to kill toolsheds remark, if you need some help on learning how to kill a toolshed Laz, we must first find you a game where toolsheds exist :D joking
but if anyone ever needs help on anything from E-Management, SA practice, E-fighting, Turn Fighting, BnZing, bombing, tanking etc or to learn the ins&outs of a specific plane.......
we are here to help fire off an email to
trainers(at)hitechcreations(dot)com
I am not sure why there is no organized informal training sessions like some of the other sims have had or still have, but the trainers in AH help when ever they are asked.......
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So, to be clear to us non-AW'ers, what was the specifics of the AW code of conduct that is being discussed?
Anybody?
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Originally posted by kj714
So, to be clear to us non-AW'ers, what was the specifics of the AW code of conduct that is being discussed?
Anybody?
You were probably an RR weenie - I doubt you'd understand.
;)
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Originally posted by Shane
uuhhhhhh.... nooooo comment, except... some things just shouldn't be shared.
:eek:
:rofl I just realized what I wrote. I know you hate it so here you go
<> Shane
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Originally posted by Shane
You were probably an RR weenie - I doubt you'd understand.
;)
Serious question, you donut . :)
Never played AW, never played any online game until I was introduced to AH a couple of years ago.
Here's you "vets" chance to enlighten a player, don't blow it after all these posts of crying around about it.
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Originally posted by kj714
Here's you "vets" chance to enlighten a player, don't blow it after all these posts of crying around about it.
Not actually a vet, but it basically boils down to this:
Fight your own fight, strive to learn something every sortie and while smack-talk is fine and expected, there's no need to get rude or ugly with the people you're playing with. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun you're in the wrong place.
Cheers,
asw
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I am not sure why there is no organized informal training sessions like some of the other sims have had or still have, but the trainers in AH help when ever they are asked.......
TC...
It is my understanding that there might be certain legal/liability issues with having an AW like training staff and that the potential downside out weights the upside.
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So, to be clear to us non-AW'ers, what was the specifics of the AW code of conduct that is being discussed?
Anybody?
A willingness to actually engage other players in situations where you do not have overwhelming odds. A shift to winning the war from actually engaging other players in A2A combat. The movement from the war being a tool to facilitate A2A combat to being the safe, conforting goal of the game itself. Avoiding engagements not only when you are at a disadvantage, but when you do not have an overwhelming advantage in numbers, aircraft or energy. Being afraid to lose.
as TequilaChaser noted:
It was about 2 guys that would dive from say around a 2k+ alt advantage , dive down thru 2 or 3 lower aircraft ( enemy planes ), and dive to the deck having these lower enemy planes rolling in behind them, so now the bandit is lower alt and has 2 or 3 planes on his six, so he proceeds to run directly for the runway at our base. He trys to vulch extends at high speed revs, repeats the vulch run......
The pilot above will eventually run out of e and be killed by those in the air. However, he will have "equalized" his defeat by shooting some plane that still has its wheels on the runway. Get enough buddies together and you can take bases, get vulch kills, get the occasional 6v1 A2A kill and "win the war" but never push the envelope enough to substantially improve individually even if playing over the course of years. Timid flying.
This is not the environment I came of age in with AW. A2A was king and A2G was used to promote a quicker flight to the A2A action, with some change of pace diversion play as well. Scores were still important to some and winning the war as well, but you had to face much more direct resistance to accomplish both.
Charon
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Originally posted by detch01
Not actually a vet, but it basically boils down to this:
Fight your own fight, strive to learn something every sortie and while smack-talk is fine and expected, there's no need to get rude or ugly with the people you're playing with.
Cheers,
asw
Hmmm, don't know if that's what these people have in mind.
1. fight your own fight - kinda vague, does that mean don't drop in on a 1v1, don't horde, or fight the way you want to fight, which means milkrunners, strat guys are okay.
2. Don't get rude or ugly - sure enough, common sense would dictate this and it's really a line that's only crossed occasionally. It's only happened to me personally once in the last month or so, and it had been quite a while before that. My sense of the MA, anyway.
One person's "smack talk" could be another's rudeness I suppose.
You know, the salute has gotten quite popular, rude or smack?
3. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun you're in the wrong place. - lots of debate here. Game or Sim? Strat guys, milkrunners are enjoying themselves, thinking they are contributing to their side or maybe just to their own score, if that's what's important to them for whatever reason. So no foul?
I get the idea that the AW "code of conduct" was quite different from this by reading the good old days convo's above.
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Originally posted by detch01
Not actually a vet, but it basically boils down to this:
Fight your own fight, strive to learn something every sortie and while smack-talk is fine and expected, there's no need to get rude or ugly with the people you're playing with. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun you're in the wrong place.
Cheers,
asw
You summed it up nicely Detch01
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Okay charon, so something like this would fit the bill:
1. Roughly equal engagements are the best test of your skills as a player and where the game is at it's best. This should be where you would hope to find yourself most of the time.
2. Vulching, spawn camping and milkrunning are "gamey" and should be avoided for the most part if you want to really participate in the game. These activities will not make you a better player.
3. Following The Horde is the easy way to play. Don't do it all the time.
4. While the war is winnable overall, the fight is what matters the most.
roughly correct?
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That is accurate kj. That is the style of play I was generally accustomed to until the arrival of the Gamestorm era in AW, and until the first big Bishop Typhoon raids about two years ago in AH.
I would not be as harsh on vulching (though there were those who were) but would consider it something to do when there are no other planes in the air. That has been a big change here. Where you used to be able to take off in a Spit V or Zero for base defense (beacuse the attackers would engage the planes in the air first before the CAP), you now have to use a fast plane like the LA7 and hope to time it right to get the vulcher on his 3rd or 4th pass.
Still, i can remember some early Saturday and Sunday mornings in the AW DOS FR arena where ther might be 12 planes up total, and you would let the other guy get wheels up and a couple of thousand feet before you engaged. Not a fully even fight, but even enough. He would do the same when your luck ran out and he found himself over your base. the last thing you wanted was for the other player to get fed up and take his ball and go home :)
The war winning would be fun in itself too, if more of it involved both an offense and an active defense. This was the case with AW (pre Gamestorm), largely because of the map layout. The capturable bases were a handful of neutral ones in the middle of the map. Everybody fought over the same limited selection of real estate, and it was common to have hectic 3-country fights for the same base. No real option to milkrun. If you wanted the base, you had to take it in the face of resistance and protect it. You had to be able to engage other planes in the air, clear a path and keep it clear. Now, it seems you milkrun until you have no choice, then hopefully your side is the first to capture that final base as each of the dominant countries gangbangs the smaller side in a race to the finish.
Charon
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Originally posted by kj714
1. fight your own fight - kinda vague, does that mean don't drop in on a 1v1, don't horde, or fight the way you want to fight, which means milkrunners, strat guys are okay.
By that I meant that do your best and don't worry about what anyone else thinks about it. If you do that, then my second point can kick in and what you can do in a fight increases as you gain knowledge and skill. If you're into bombing, then bomb the hell out of everything you can find. If you're into Jabo, air-superiority, or just furballing do the same. Hording is boring as hell once you figure out how to play the game without it. Same-same for Horun.
BTW - the standard attempt at polarizing the game into "furballers" and "milkrunners-strat guys" is narrow-minded and lame. If that's where you are I don't see you picking up anything useful in this thread.
2. Don't get rude or ugly - sure enough, common sense would dictate this and it's really a line that's only crossed occasionally. It's only happened to me personally once in the last month or so, and it had been quite a while before that. My sense of the MA, anyway.
One person's "smack talk" could be another's rudeness I suppose.
You know, the salute has gotten quite popular, rude or smack?
Ok, there are reasonable limits to behaviour even in competitive situations. Invite some guy out you barely know for beer and pool. Now every time he beats you tell him to go himself. See how long it takes before he either walks away from you or whacks you in the mouth with his stick.
The salute means only one thing, the person giving it has lost the fight, doesn't know how or why they lost it, isn't willing to learn anything new to prevent it from happening again, pretty much has no self-respect and is a waste of skin if you ask me.
3. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun you're in the wrong place. - lots of debate here. Game or Sim? Strat guys, milkrunners are enjoying themselves, thinking they are contributing to their side or maybe just to their own score, if that's what's important to them for whatever reason. So no foul?
I get the idea that the AW "code of conduct" was quite different from the good old days convo's above.
How so?
asw
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Well, I get the idea that people who wish for the "good old days", tend to look down on the strat / milkrun people and wish them gone for the most part. The good old days were focused on A2A combat.
To be more specific, I get the idea that #1 & #3 are more closely aligned with the "new" style of play, ie, strat and milkrunning are okay, if that's what one wants to do, it's their money.
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Well, I get the idea that people who wish for the "good old days", tend to look down on the strat / milkrun people and wish them gone for the most part. The good old days were focused on A2A combat.
Well, I usually play a lot more strat each month in other games than I spend time flying in AH. I would likely be an active strat participant here if you actually had some challenge to the process beyond the numbers game. Valid in RL of course, but boring to me in a game. I fail to even find the level of challenge in AH strat that you find from the AI in a game like Civ3. There was strat in the good old AW days as well, but you faced active resistance. If you wanted that base you had to take it, and you took it in the face of solid, consistant running resistance.
And, the good old days weren't always that good. No rose colored glasses here. There were fewer numbers (especially in DOS FR) and you could spend a lot of time trying to find that fight. It was usually a good fight, but often not really hair on fire type of stuff. I suppose I would like to see someting more here, both strat and A2A, and not something that is a lesser experience in both areas.
Charon
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Last night in the CT we flew the "Old Way" for about 2 hours. Great fun was had by all. This happens about 4 times during the week with up to 20 flyers showing per session. It gets started about 5-6pm PST and lasts to about 9pm PST. Gang banging does take place but for the most part the regulars are followers of the "Old Rules" and help keep the action fun. You can get players to change sides to even it up, (most of the time:) ) It's usually the newer players checking it out who vulch you on take off or landing.
Point is, during the hours listed above(when I usually get online weekdays) the CT is alot like the old AW.
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Last night in the CT we flew the "Old Way" for about 2 hours. Great fun was had by all. This happens about 4 times during the week with up to 20 flyers showing per session. It gets started about 5-6pm PST and lasts to about 9pm PST. Gang banging does take place but for the most part the regulars are followers of the "Old Rules" and help keep the action fun. You can get players to change sides to even it up, (most of the time ) It's usually the newer players checking it out who vulch you on take off or landing.
I'll have to check it out again. I've had some good experiences in the CT and some really bad (MA with fewer numbers, run to ack, gangbang, etc.) experiences.
Charon
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Kj - if you look at AH in the MA there's lots of "fighting" as in lots of people getting shot down, but there isn't much in the way of competition between players or groups. That's the big difference between the AW I knew and AH.
The "code of behaviour" I was familiar with in AW had nothing to do with game play specifics it had to do with the way we interacted with each other and with what kind of respect we treated the game (i.e. willingness to learn from experiences in it).
Game play was focused on A2A combat but that included the "land grab". The land grab almost always provided for a really large fights and made for some truly good Squad v. Squad rivalries. In AH the land grab generates a horde because there's a stampede to other fields and easier places to play when a field is attacked by a semi-large force.
re: horun in AW - didn't happen when I was there. HO's were shut off and people who perched at high alt, screamed through an enemy flight and ran for the nearest friendly ack were pretty much laughed at and as most people don't like being laughed at they generally figured out how to achieve some success without getting laughed at. Here ppl whine and moan about it and it remains a viable game play option. Derision is always a far better tool for correcting game play than whining about it.
A "code of conduct" in AH based on allowing or disallowing specific actions or types of game play won't change game play one iota.
asw
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Originally posted by detch01
Derision is always a far better tool for correcting game play than whining about it.
This is why I call guys out on channel 200 for all sorts of lame things. It's about the only thing I can do to enlighten them at this point.
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Originally posted by Stang
This is why I call guys out on channel 200 for all sorts of lame things. It's about the only thing I can do to enlighten them at this point.
Don't oversimplify. Derision only pisses people off. That's when you get the flaming "who the F are you to talk to me that way" comebacks. I've learned that fact over many years, in many endeavors. Treat people with respect, not derision, and they will come around.
Try to learn something every flight, you say...how come you guys can't learn THAT? Cojones getting in the way?
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Thanks Detch & Charon, now I'm getting a better understanding of what we're talking about here. When people just throw around the "code of conduct" phrase, everybody nods, but really ,what are we talking about? This is a little better. I needed it for my own personal point of reference.
For me, It's difficult to imagine anything really changing the way the MA is played, unless most of the big squads decided to get together on all three sides and try to make a change.
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Originally posted by lazs2
what? train em to kill toolsheds?
lazs
No, train them how to fly and fight.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by dedalos
PS. you guys - unless you treat sick animals - are not really vets.
Wow, that makes me a vet after playing this game (or any online sim) for only three months... ty :lol.
Now, i know im still pretty much a newbie at this game. But its fun. Today i got engaged by four cons. Unfortunatly didnt use the opportunities i had for killing at least some of them, and eventually got shot down by flyboy. I commented on the fight on 200, and got a 'good flying schatzi' in return. Made me kinda proud of myself. And happy. That flaming, whining and verbally attacking each other is not all there is to MA. Even theres a lot of that going on. Including HOs, Running, Vultching...
And theres the difficulty... Vulching is needed to cap a base. Sometimes all you can get are front quarter shots. Extending is just a way to momentarily save ones life and come back when your disadvantage isnt so bad anymore.
Gangbanging or wingman tactics. Horde or Squad operation.
Its a fine and sometimes difficult line to draw. And depends a lot on someones point of view (aka whos the one that got killed in the process). Its not easy for a 'n00b' to know which is which. Im still 'scared' to take front quarter shots, cause i dont wanna HO someone.
As has already been said in this thread. If you dont care about fairplay, honor and respect to other humans, you wont learn it here.
Today a squaddie commented he was happy i wasnt peeved because he shot me numerous times in DA yesterday, during a game we played. Why? Hes just clearly better than i am. The only one id have to be peeved at is myself. Need to practice more ;).
I guess, it all boils down to one thing: You cant change the people playing this game. Just pick the ones you fly with/against and ignore/shoot the rest. 'Vets' or 'Newbs'.
To all the 'vets': Please keep offering your help and teaching. Its greatly appreciated by at least some. And i think those few are worth it. If someone refuses (impolitely) its his/her loss - .squelch.
to all
PS: i keep 200 tuned... its the best soap opera youve ever read!!! LMAO most times.
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Originally posted by Stang
This is why I call guys out on channel 200 for all sorts of lame things. It's about the only thing I can do to enlighten them at this point.
find your own schtick!
:mad:
dam copycat!!
:aok
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Originally posted by rshubert
Don't oversimplify. Derision only pisses people off. That's when you get the flaming "who the F are you to talk to me that way" comebacks.
ok, I'll be exactly specific here so you do understand:
In a group of peope in which the general mode of behaviour is based on a basic respect for other people, derisive actions and/or comments directed at specific acts or behaviours that are not in accordance with the general standards of action or behaviour expected in that group provides a beneficial and corrective pressure.
In a group of people in which the basic mode of behaviour is egocentric and lacking a basic respect for other individuals in the group regardless of the affect of that behaviour on the group as a whole, derision is a constant feature of behaviour, however this derision is directed at the people rather than the behaviour and is generally counter-productive if corrective derision is intended.
asw
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Originally posted by detch01
In a group of people in which the basic mode of behaviour is egocentric and lacking a basic respect for other individuals in the group regardless of the affect of that behaviour on the group as a whole, derision is a constant feature of behaviour, however this derision is directed at the people rather than the behaviour and is generally counter-productive if corrective derision is intended.
asw
the rest of you read this, paying particular attention to the bold italics, then re-read it. ask for help understanding it if need be.
;)
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"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"
You gotta be kidding me.
:(
Originally posted by NoBaddy
TC...
It is my understanding that there might be certain legal/liability issues with having an AW like training staff and that the potential downside out weights the upside.
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Originally posted by Shane
the rest of you read this, paying particular attention to the bold italics, then re-read it. ask for help understanding it if need be.
;)
ohh, ohhh, Mr. Kotter! Mr. Kotter!
So it's not YOU are a donut, it's you FLY like a donut.
But, given the above, how much is the overall effect of derision diluted when effective flying leading to a successful kill is derided as well as poor tactics?
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No, in my opinion derision doesn't work well as a tool to modify behaviour. The dip**** in question simply assumes you are a "sore loser" and "mad 'cause U died", I assume because that is as much as their mind can grasp.
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The don't lose if you're gonna deride
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Originally posted by kj714
So, to be clear to us non-AW'ers, what was the specifics of the AW code of conduct that is being discussed?
Anybody?
Ok I'll bite.
I never flew AW , but was around in the early days of WB and it seems to me if there was a the gameplay style/ code of conduct it included these things
2 on 1 is plenty
Flying against the numbers is preferable to flying with the numbers.
HO's are not ACM
Respect your opponents, victor or vanquished. Die gracefully and quietly. Win the same way.
Dying teaches you more than running
Vulching is OK and fun occasionally, but not every sortie
Camping is something boy scouts do ;)
The fight is the thing !
Of course there were no GV's and ships guns and things like that, people generally focussed on ACM and Air Combat and tried to get better at it.
You played to seek out a good fight , not create a one-sided slaughter.
Maybe it's all the distractions these days and the scoring system that have changed things so much
or maybe I'm just remembering through rose-colored glasses because it was all new and fun
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Originally posted by Redd
Ok I'll bite.
I never flew AW , but was around in the early days of WB and it seems to me if there was a the gameplay style/ code of conduct it included these things
2 on 1 is plenty
Flying against the numbers is preferable to flying with the numbers.
HO's are not ACM
Respect your opponents, victor or vanquished. Die gracefully and quietly. Win the same way.
Dying teaches you more than running
Vulching is OK and fun occasionally, but not every sortie
Camping is something boy scouts do ;)
The fight is the thing !
Of course there were no GV's and ships guns and things like that, people generally focussed on ACM and Air Combat and tried to get better at it.
You played to seek out a good fight , not create a one-sided slaughter.
Maybe it's all the distractions these days and the scoring system that have changed things so much
or maybe I'm just remembering through rose-colored glasses because it was all new and fun
Pretty much nailed it on the head.
ack-ack
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Well, in my opinion it goes a little deeper than just A2A, people don't want to take the time to actually become good at anything.
For example, we've got a Hurricane 2D.. it can pop the turrets on Panzers and Tigers in one hit. Practically nobody uses it. Why? Its to "hard". Much easier to grab a flight of Lancs, climb to 500 feet, and drop 42 1,000 lb bombs on one Panzer.
Idiotic, but they "win".
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Hey Urchin....
Id love to take you up on the Hurri for the popping of panzers and tigers in one hit....any chance of you showing me how that is done?
Regards,
TG12:)
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Originally posted by mechanic
i hope you are not so set in your ways as to ignore the new comers who do understand and follow the code.
that would make you equal to the 'dirt movers' in my opinion, except add old and moody to that...
ive been online flight simming for 1.5 years, so i cannot possibly know what honour and sportsmanship are, er, ok, i get ya :aok .
Wow.....
Didnt really expect this to have any legs....it really was ment to clear the air on the other thread if anything I posted was taken the wrong way....however a bunch of interesting comments.
mechanic....
I'm sure there are alot of guys like you out there buried amongst the gaggle...and yes I guess I'm old and grochity:):)....
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Originally posted by detch01
Most of you who posted here are the generation before me in AW - I didn't show up until June of 97 in the game. Even then I saw there some of what we see here now. The difference there was that there was an active training corps to pass it down the line. I got some of it and am glad I did - it makes this game so much better.
When I converted over to AH I got caught a couple of times in the nostalgia rut and spent my time complaining about the current crop of players. Time that I wasted in the game. I'm going to spend more time in the TA - I don't know much but maybe what I do know I can pass down the line to pay back those that taught me. It's a start.
Cheers,
asw
Great....
As one of the original crew of AH trainers my hats off to any and all who take time to help others along....
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The old AW ethic also is a byproduct of the way the game grew back then. It was a small town compared to AH which is more like a big city. There were fewer people, everyone knew each other (i.e. you saw everyone's playerID in flight), and maps were miniscule compared to what we have now. So being cast as a banana by the Village Elders wasn't something you lived down easily (The Pangloss Principle). This kind of made people hold up a higher standard of behavior, and take a little more pride in their skill. Competition for top fighter and squadron was fierce back then - hell, we used to keep track of who the biggest bail-out artist was.
And, because the game (and the whole genre) was new (and paaaainful to play), there was a closer connection to the game and the era it represented. You really had to love WW2 aircraft to put up with everything that was wrong with AW and GEnie.
I also think there are two definitions of "respect" at work here. One is the "In Your Face" kind of respect - the modern interpretation - whereby racking up a big score (regardless of how or how fast) will mean you deserve respect. And I think many people coming from other, more Doom-esque, venues operate under that mentality.
The definition we grew up with in AW was more old world. Respect came with time spent and deeds done (and "deeds" means more than porking barracks 100 flights in a row). Respect was earned, not deserved. It meant something to have a 5+ year veteran player invite you into his squad. We didn't confuse "skillful" with "successful" quite like happens in AH today.
Trash-talk is fine as long as both sides of the conversation realize that's what it is. It must be understood also that for many people flying AH is an escape. Once you get to know your fellow flyers you will find that many have some pretty heavy stuff in their real lives. Bear that in mind before you say anything derisive.
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I dont mean this as a flame of you or any vet inperticular. But many vets, in any game, tend to sit on a very high horse and dont reach down to take up a new guy to join em in the sadle. They keep lookin down, swearing and whining about how things where better in the good old days.
This was ment as a reply to a specific "respect" type question....I thought my harshness required some explanation. If someone created a 2nd "Nomad" squad I'd laugh at em....thats a badge thats earned over time by gaining respect....not something you just pin on yourself. Now when someone "complains" about someone else taking "their" squad name....well if the "original" squad is just a bunch of noobs...well who cares?. How, Why did the earn any right to excusivity compared to Ack Acks squad with years of time and earned respect from the community at large....
Again just my 2 cents.....
BTW I agree with you completely on comments above....but many of the vets DO try and make a contribuation....we're there if folks want to learn....
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
It meant something to have a 5+ year veteran player invite you into his squad. We didn't confuse "skillful" with "successful" quite like happens in AH today.
I felt like I had finally arrived when I was invited to join the 479th FG back in '97 after tooling around for 4 years in the Lightning. Too be invited into a squadron that was known for their prowess in the P-38 and to fly with guys like Pharo, Ballz, REEMO, Noamo and the rest of the Raiders was a true honor for me.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Trash-talk is fine as long as both sides of the conversation realize that's what it is. It must be understood also that for many people flying AH is an escape. Once you get to know your fellow flyers you will find that many have some pretty heavy stuff in their real lives. Bear that in mind before you say anything derisive.
Well said Dok...
As I remember, 'trash' talk was generally confined to the game and rarely got personal, at least it was that way until the coming of the "10,000 Dweebs". No monitors...no Game Ops, the 'community' was capable of policing its self in all but the worst cases. Heck, in those days, the best friends I had, outside my squadmates, were my 'enemies'.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Well said Dok...
As I remember, 'trash' talk was generally confined to the game and rarely got personal, at least it was that way until the coming of the "10,000 Dweebs". No monitors...no Game Ops, the 'community' was capable of policing its self in all but the worst cases. Heck, in those days, the best friends I had, outside my squadmates, were my 'enemies'.
Hehe ... just about everyone I recruited into the 4Q was someone with whom I exchanged deaths with very often. It eventually came down to "either we can keep shooting each other down all the time, or we can fly together."
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Hehe ... just about everyone I recruited into the 4Q was someone with whom I exchanged deaths with very often. It eventually came down to "either we can keep shooting each other down all the time, or we can fly together."
Guess I don't feel so bad about the origins of the Nomads then :)
It was made up of 38 drivers who'd been shooting each other down over and over. That friendly rivalry and the 'respect' folks had for each other made it easy to do. Of course being able to have a shades squad like we did to start, didn't hurt either.
The old "Lets meet at 10K over the river near 84 and have at it, doesn't happen in here with all the extra bodies.
That being said, I'm still having fun. No complaints from me :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I felt like I had finally arrived when I was invited to join the 479th FG back in '97 after tooling around for 4 years in the Lightning. Too be invited into a squadron that was known for their prowess in the P-38 and to fly with guys like Pharo, Ballz, REEMO, Noamo and the rest of the Raiders was a true honor for me.
ack-ack
479th were a bunch of dweebs! :)
Ran into REEMO in Day of Defeat a while back. Where are Ballz, Noamo etc?
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
479th were a bunch of dweebs! :)
Ran into REEMO in Day of Defeat a while back. Where are Ballz, Noamo etc?
Dan/Slack
Bah! You're just jealous because we were able to land our planes without crashing :P
Ballz came back for a bit but real life intruded once more and he's busy doing that stuff. Noamo, well, he's old and they only let him use the computer at the old folks home once in a blue moon.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well, in my opinion it goes a little deeper than just A2A, people don't want to take the time to actually become good at anything.
Idiotic, but they "win".
tragically the main thing they want to get good at is gaming the scoring system.
as much a I understand why HTC need one in place to attract and hold some players , I'm sure the scoring system itself is actually detrimental to the gameplay in many respects.
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Originally posted by Redd
tragically the main thing they want to get good at is gaming the scoring system.
as much a I understand why HTC need one in place to attract and hold some players , I'm sure the scoring system itself is actually detrimental to the gameplay in many respects.
Yup. Always been that way too.
In AH we have a scoring system which rewards landing a multi-kill mission. On its surface, this should be the ideal - if you can land multiple kills, you're doing alright. Right?
Well ... no. What it's fostered is an atmosphere of vultching and Horde Warrior - the safest route to reward. You can tell the size of the next wave to attack your base by the number of C.205 perk-slurpers which start to appear.
This isn't specifically a problem of AH ... the affect of the scoring system on gameplay has been a problem since the beginning.
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Originally posted by Urchin
...
For example, we've got a Hurricane 2D.. it can pop the turrets on Panzers and Tigers in one hit. Practically nobody uses it. Why? Its to "hard".
...
There's a second half to this example though - tank-busting is the one thing you can't practice at all offline.
There are no tank drones with which to figure out where to hit 'em - and way, way too often what "should work" in terms of scoring hits with those 40mm's online doesn't. I know you can do it - but there have been enough threads on this subject that its clear that you're in the minority of having found these weaknesses in armor plating.
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Every noob should look at this thread.
I'm glad to see many pilots are still flyin with honor.
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There's a second half to this example though - tank-busting is the one thing you can't practice at all offline.
There are no tank drones with which to figure out where to hit 'em - and way, way too often what "should work" in terms of scoring hits with those 40mm's online doesn't. I know you can do it - but there have been enough threads on this subject that its clear that you're in the minority of having found these weaknesses in armor plating.
With no disrespect, IIRC DokG, most of those 'enough threads' ended up with you alone arguing that the IL2 or Hurri guns can't kill tanks, and the rest of the people disagreeing with you.
I'm a mediocre pilot with 1.5 K/D with 2~4% hit rates and horrible scores, but I still can kill about 2~3 tanks with 30 rounds of dual 40mms with 15 shots. 3~4 attack passes will usually at least disable the tank.
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Sad, you have to have the concept to want to learn first. Almost any vet simmer is willing to teach when asked, sometimes offered and ignorant pride rejects.
Back into your corner!
:)
~A
Originally posted by dedalos
I was going to make some remarks about vets who don't have respect for new guys, but then I saw this.
<<<>>> SlapShot
PS. you guys - unless you treat sick animals - are not really vets. You just have been plaing a game for a long time. Get off your high white horses and refer to your selfs as long time gamers. If you want respect, you have to give respect. Don;t complain about some one that does not know what YOU did not teach him.
Oh well, I made them anyway, lol
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what it comes down to for me are fights like this one....
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/files/109VSJug-Vudak2.ahf
those who choose not engage when they might lose will never experience the thrill of a great....no...an outstanding air battle.
doesnt matter if its one on one, one on two or even one on ten, if you dont try to fight you will never enjoy the game for what its about.
if you enjoy the capture and the shed bashing, then so be it. but you wont ever get the feeling its possible to get, nor the sense of achievement.
i suppose others may have lower/different expectations of achievement tho...
bat
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Ok, I made a "tutorial film" for the Hurri-2d.
I have some questions.
A. Is it still possible to take screenshots from a film? It doesn't appear to be so, which kind of sucks. I'd like to be able to take snapshots of what I see at various times during the "run" to give people an idea of how to set up a pass on a tank in a Hurri-2D.
B. Can someone host the film? Looks like it is about 3.5 Mb, 18 minutes long. I knock out the turrets on 2 Panzer IVs, 1 Tiger, and 1 T-34. Granted, it is a controlled environment (DA), but I've had more successful sorties in the MA in it before. Oil got hit from the ack from the city about 3/4 of the way through the film, it might make it tough to see the run on the T-34.
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most of the time I don't win against huge odds but... at least I made it happen instead of waiting for someone to make it happen for me.
lazs
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I agree with urchin. The hurri 2d is great for gv's, it's a shame people don't use it. Urchin i don't think it's just about people not willing to learn how to use it, but also ignorance. I cannot tell you the amount of times i have people on ch200 calling bs when i pop them with a hurri2d- the last one was "BS a hurri can't kill a panzer in 3 passes" , well he was lucky as i normally disable it in the first and kill it on the second. The hurri2d will also pop tigers rather nicely too, tho prepare for the bombardment on ch200 should anyone do it....:D
I can post some films too if anyone would wish to see some hurri2d action.
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I'm only good at knocking out the turrets, I usually don't go for the kill-shot unless there isn't any other tanks around. The turrets are easy to knock out, actually killing the tank is something else, at least for me.
Best luck I've had killing the Panzer is shooting through the top just in front of the turret, that seems to kill them more often than not. But like I said.. I'd rather disable 3 tanks than kill 1, if there are 3 tanks running around.
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I'll host it for you, Urchin.
Just email it to: Rolex@flightsims.info
and I'll post link here after I get it.
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I am a complete newbie. I have been trying to fly the right way. well as far as I know the "right" way. It is kind of hard to know what the right way is.
I have been working under the assumption that if I am doing something wrong then... some one will call me on it. I will then ask them what I did wrong and try todo better the next time.
I cannot be on when my squad is on at times, well no big deal there is always something to do. I am not afraid to fly alone. during those times, I have been trying to help defend some bases and asked on the range chat \ channel what I am needed to doand I get ......*crickets* Ask again ....*crickets*. So I just start freelancing. No one says anything realy no one mentions me it is like I do not exist.
I must of course acknowledge the 2 Count them 2 people who have acknowledged me and gave me instruction. ABDC and Wonder. Thankyou both
I am malleable clay shape me mold me.
It was a vet's duty to mentor new players in my last game. I took seriously. If you want the new guys to play "right" teach them actually Please Teach me I would like to be taught.
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One approach that might work (as has been posted before) is to go back to a points system for winning the war with only certain bases being capturable. As with AW in its earlier days these would be the central ones on the map. [edit: In fact, I will go as far as to say it would definately work.]
For example, you get points for captures, A2A kills, A2G kills (tanks, PTs etc.) and perhaps even kills but no points for aircraft with the wheels still on the ground. You can structure the point awards so that shooting down flying aircraft is just as important to victory as capturing what may be an undefended base. Having a limited selection of capturable bases, centrally located would also concentrate the action more. It is a mode that, IMO, worked very well at promoting combat.
It was changed in AW around Gamestorm because with the increased number it stressed the existing AW netcode beyond its capabilities (as Moggy told me. I believe the limit was about 60 aircraft in one area and the smaller/older "central neutrals" maps would have stressed that regularly). However, AH has better net code, and with a larger map, and a larger group of capturable islands you could still spread out the action but have some degree of concentration beyond what we have now. [edit: I doubt it would stress AH netcode beyond the current "final bases" period of a capture]
All countries would, in essence, fight over the same 20 bases for the tour, with the points totaled at the end. Not a new concept obviously :) but one that worked very well and could work well again, IMO, with the right balance of base numbers, and point awards for activities. You could even make strat targets important from a points perspective, if not from a gameplay/role perspective, etc. Same with truck convoys and barges, etc.
The downsides would be change (always scary); extra programming (points tracking database); adding new maps (current maps might be difficult to work since you want carriers to have a role); intellectual property isses with the AW game model?; and fine tuning the points to get varied gameplay.
Charon
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Originally posted by Kweassa
With no disrespect, IIRC DokG, most of those 'enough threads' ended up with you alone arguing that the IL2 or Hurri guns can't kill tanks, and the rest of the people disagreeing with you.
...
You don't recall correctly.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Ok, I made a "tutorial film" for the Hurri-2d.
...
Cool. I can host if there aren't better offers.
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A. Is it still possible to take screenshots from a film? It doesn't appear to be so, which kind of sucks. I'd like to be able to take snapshots of what I see at various times during the "run" to give people an idea of how to set up a pass on a tank in a Hurri-2D.
In order to get a screen shot you now have to use the windows "Print-Screen" button from the desktop. You then have to crop out what you don't want.
There are some nice freeware tools for screen capture. The one I use is "Screen Grab Pro" ... very simple ... PF9 to capture the "active" window or PF8 to "select" an area to capture. Captures go to the "clipboard".
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Originally posted by Charon
One approach that might work (as has been posted before) is to go back to a points system for winning the war with only certain bases being capturable. As with AW in its earlier days these would be the central ones on the map. [edit: In fact, I will go as far as to say it would definately work.]
...
We kind of have this now with the new capture threshholds. But on bigger maps it's kind of lost.
Another simple change would be to make it a prerequisite for capture that all hangars at a base be down. That would cut down on the vultching, slow down the steamroller (captured bases would need to wait for resupply before being useful), and make counter-attacks meaningful.
But no matter what scoring and rules are in place, the style of play will optimize itself.
The more curious trend we're seeing in some of these posts is the "I just want to have fun, I don't want to learn" variety. Who plays a sport or game and doesn't want to get better at it?
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We kind of have this now with the new capture threshholds. But on bigger maps it's kind of lost.
I don't see the current expanded thresholds as doing anything more than speeding the end of the capture. You still have large initial periods where its easy to steamroll and milkrun, with the final race being a gangbang fest against the country in the bucket (a milkrun with slightly more resistance). The infrastructure and tour winning system of AW SVGA/AOL period forced concentrated action far more than a huge map, win the war to the last base concept.
Another simple change would be to make it a prerequisite for capture that all hangars at a base be down. That would cut down on the vultching, slow down the steamroller (captured bases would need to wait for resupply before being useful), and make counter-attacks meaningful.
That's assuming there would be a desire (unless forced) to counterattack in the face of resistance. Why do that when you can just milkrun one of their bases 5 sectors over? I am increasingly convince that the issues in gameplay are related to the core infrastructre design of the game [edit: combined with a player base that now includes a large percentage of casual "gamers"], and that any subtle change will have, at best, a subtle impact. Of course, the unanswered (or maybe answered by inaction) question is, do HT and Pyro think the current system is failing or flawed? Are major changes needed? Apparently not.
The more curious trend we're seeing in some of these posts is the "I just want to have fun, I don't want to learn" variety. Who plays a sport or game and doesn't want to get better at it?
Just look at the success of arcade games and consoles compared to hard core sims. People like fun as opposed to work. For you or me or any number of others getting good at a game like this is fun. For others that would border on work. I can relate. As much as I love these types of games something like Falcon (with all the systems, etc.) is alomst too much like work to get into. Though I never liked the view system either. The same goes for some of the modern attack sub games where you have to have a nuanced understanding of the sonar systems, etc. Look at the numbers that played FR vs. HT in AW.
FWIW, I think changing the infrastructure to the older AW tour/points limited capture model (pre gamestorm) would promote more action, but not necessiarily make the game too tough or unplayable for most of the player base. However, it might encourage individuals to develope greater skills because there would be more forced fighting and more balanced odds in the fight by the nature of the game design.
Charon
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Originally posted by Aubrey
I am a complete newbie. I have been trying to fly the right way. well as far as I know the "right" way. It is kind of hard to know what the right way is.
I have been working under the assumption that if I am doing something wrong then... some one will call me on it. I will then ask them what I did wrong and try todo better the next time.
I cannot be on when my squad is on at times, well no big deal there is always something to do. I am not afraid to fly alone. during those times, I have been trying to help defend some bases and asked on the range chat \ channel what I am needed to doand I get ......*crickets* Ask again ....*crickets*. So I just start freelancing. No one says anything realy no one mentions me it is like I do not exist.
I must of course acknowledge the 2 Count them 2 people who have acknowledged me and gave me instruction. ABDC and Wonder. Thankyou both
I am malleable clay shape me mold me.
It was a vet's duty to mentor new players in my last game. I took seriously. If you want the new guys to play "right" teach them actually Please Teach me I would like to be taught.
Anytime you see me up just give a shout....
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Another simple change would be to make it a prerequisite for capture that all hangars at a base be down. That would cut down on the vultching, slow down the steamroller (captured bases would need to wait for resupply before being useful), and make counter-attacks meaningful.
...on vulching... Something I have suggested before is to add disorganized ground fire to fields. There would be no tracers and nothing to shoot back at. It would represent the mechanics, cooks, clerks..etc. grabbing a weapon and popping off at anything flying low over the field. The way I envison it is that the longer a field is under attack (ie. planes at low alt within a certain range of the tower) the more intense it could become. While I really dislike random stuff...I do see this as a possible 'fix' for vulching.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
...While I really dislike random stuff...I do see this as a possible 'fix' for vulching.
Of course no one likes being killed, but if I have to get shot down I would prefer it to be by a real person. Getting killed by the AI is fine for offline games, but I find it a tad frustrating to spend time getting to a good position to engage, only to be killed by flak. So I would much prefer to see more done to enable players to defend effectively, (such as more manable guns at the airfield, including flak batteries, or give players the ability to man more than one gun simultaneously to get the same effect as with buffs in formation) and give less responsibility to the AI. Personally, I think everything handed over to the AI, is a step away from what give this sort of game its unique appeal, the ability to compete with other real people.
Also, it would be a real shame to “fix” vulching in that way. Not just because it is a lot of fun, but because there are more realistic ways to do it. Staffing aircraft on the ground and suppressing enemy air defences has always been a realistic part of air combat, for example, there are many accounts of pilots trying to take off while their field was being bombed and strafed, those pilots knew the risks, and decided to do it anyway. The point is that vulching doesn’t just require a vulcher, it also takes someone on the ground willing to place themselves at risk, and in Aces High the prospect of getting into the air under fire and getting to kill a vulcher or two, is enough incentive to make the risk worthwhile for many players… Why deprive them and the vulchers of all that fun :)
Badboy
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Aaah, but the only side you are talking about is that of the vulcher. Sure it's fun...for him. I agree there are plenty of accounts of field suppression. At the same time, there are accounts of attackers taking fire from small arms also. BTW, the kind of thing I am talking about would have no affect on planes flying above say 1000 yards. Vulchers could still vulch or circle above the field and wait until they clear the field to attack. But, at least there would be some risk associated with vulching.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
...on vulching... Something I have suggested before is to add disorganized ground fire to fields. There would be no tracers and nothing to shoot back at. It would represent the mechanics, cooks, clerks..etc. grabbing a weapon and popping off at anything flying low over the field. The way I envison it is that the longer a field is under attack (ie. planes at low alt within a certain range of the tower) the more intense it could become. While I really dislike random stuff...I do see this as a possible 'fix' for vulching.
The best fix for vulching is not to take off from a base under attack. It really is that simple.
As for DoK's suggestion, that's how it pretty much was in AW. You needed to take down at least 60% of the base before you could capture it. Made for some real intense battles and then there were the battles for control over the depots and factories.
ack-ack
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We've wandered off a bit here, but vultching has always been part of the game. Always will be. The problem now is that it's becoming too dominant a theme for some of the following reasons:
1) Barracks are so easily porked which stalls the front, so vultch sessions over a base can last a long, long time.
2) Bases can be taken without killing FH's, which keeps the Vultching Lamp lit until the troops are in the map room.
3) The reward system favors multi-kill missions, which are easiest obtained by vultching for a protracted time. This sets up a conflict with the land-grab metaphor which is supposed to drive the game. Some peopel want to take bases, others just want the AAA down and to get their Horde installed overhead so they can vultch - bomber guys usually get precious little help from these types.
From a "it could happen" standpoint, it's kind of hard to imagine a commander sending C-47's or M3's within 1000 yards of an enemy base which could still launch fighters or attack bombers. So that's one reason I'd like to see fields have to be 100% down before a capture is enabled.
Another is that it will take time for said base to be useful to it's new owners after it changes hands. AAA will work, and you can re-arm, but that's about it. This will be a much more effective throttle on steamroller tactics than barracks porking.
As for AAA ... the more auto-AAA you have the more people will hide in their ack. What I could see, though, is a bunch of light AAA positions sprinkled around the field. Like .50 cal's in sets of 3 in a dispersed arrangement. And they'd function like a formation of single-gun turrets - so when you grabbed on, you would be controlling 3 guns (until they got destroyed). If you had 2 to 4 such clusters (depending on base size) then you'd have a nice increase in low-altitude AAA with a high enough rate of fire to do some damage. At a medium base you'd have basically 9 .50's sitting there - against bombers not a big deal, but against vultchers and porkers - more than enough to put a hail of bullets. And it's not random.
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For Urchin's Hurricane II-D film, right click here>> (http://flightsims.info/Hurri2D.ahf) and Save Target As...
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AHFilm crashes when I try to load this. Any custom terrain or skin involved?
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Don't think so, unless Redd was using one for the tank. There aren't any skins for the Hurri-2D as far as I know, and the film was in the DA.
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Strange - it locked up my PC at the end of the film.
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Ahhh yes, true, but that controdicts one of the first rules of air combat,.... "choose your fights wisely".
:)
~A
Originally posted by mechanic
what it comes down to for me are fights like this one....
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/files/109VSJug-Vudak2.ahf
those who choose not engage when they might lose will never experience the thrill of a great....no...an outstanding air battle.
doesnt matter if its one on one, one on two or even one on ten, if you dont try to fight you will never enjoy the game for what its about.
if you enjoy the capture and the shed bashing, then so be it. but you wont ever get the feeling its possible to get, nor the sense of achievement.
i suppose others may have lower/different expectations of achievement tho...
bat
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OK ... I didn't have the DA terrain loaded.
Huh ... figured you'd use flaps to give yourself more time for a shot, but I guess not.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Don't think so, unless Redd was using one for the tank. There aren't any skins for the Hurri-2D as far as I know, and the film was in the DA.
Nope std skin
I must say , for my first time in a tiger , I thought I did really well ;)
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When I first played online it was in a WW1 sim called Flying Circus in 1996.
I started out with all intentions of being an Honorable player (whatever that means).
I would allow a defeated opponent to RTB with his crippled plane, giving him a salute. That player would repay my "Honor" by coming back with his buddy targetting and gang banging me, making sure I crashed. Not a salute. This happened so many times. The better I got, the more I got hunted, targeted, taunted, and gangbanged.
I would allow a plane on an enemy airfield to get co alt before attacking. Those pilots would respond by vulching me when the table was turned.
Eventually I started to make sure that a bogey was down, and down hard when I shot them. That bogey would respond by targeting me, hunting me, nailing me with his buddies and taunting me on the all country channel.
I started to get meaner, more cold hearted, started to vulch, gang bang, and taunt on the all country channel.
I stopped having fun. :(
Then I went to Red Baron, same kee rap. So I stopped saluting, stopped talking on the all country channel. I got razor toting mean. I became as cold hearted as an ice pick.
I started having fun :)
By the time I got into Aces High, I was a black hearted, merciless scumbag. You fly near me, you die near me if I can kill you, no mercy given, and no expected.
So my definition of Honorable behavior is not to taunt an opponent on the all country channel. Not to criticize him if he defeats me, or to ridicule him if I win. Seldom do I salute.
I give my opponent the honor of an anonymous death if I kill him. No need to taunt him, that is how I protect his honor. Nor do I criticize him if he wins, even if it is by gang bang or vulch.
That is the only honor I understand, other than that, you fly in front of my guns, and I will try to shoot you down.
Your mileage may vary :)
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Foder....
Original "intent" of this thread was to clarify my thoughts on the "checkertail" post which goes hand in hand with the other "digital dirt warrior" thread I started. To me the checkersnails havent done anything to "earn" any respect in the game (again I know them as a CT squad). For them to complain that someone "stole" their squad name is absurd (IMO). You'va always been open and straight forward about how you play...and truthfully I'm always glad to have a razor toting 190 driver watching my back....but as it relates to this topic...the AK's (and many other "old line" squads) ride to the sound of the guns....not away from them. Further I've never seen you leave a squadie (or non noob) high and dry....always amazed how often you've got that 190 down in the mud and the muck. You can "fly right" alot of different ways....just because we fly totally different "styles" doesnt put you and I on different sides of the line...had you been on (taking about the "fair weather friends" post...u'd of been otw to 114 with me to try and help slap out....
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Humble :)
My post was not ment to criticize anything in the thread.
Protecting your squaddies is part of being in the squad. :)
I was just sort of posting, well not sure why, just wanted to ramble about how I used to be and how I am now.
All in all, I lost something along the way. Innocence maybe? Maybe a sense of fair play? You just tend to get hard hearted after a while. Maybe just lowering myself to the level of the lowest? Seems to be the trend of flight sims.
Maybe I need to look at where I came from, and do I really want to be what I’ve become?
Or maybe I just want to sharpen my razor? ;)
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I'm glad to see many pilots are still flyin with honor.
Yeah:rolleyes: Maybe 10? Dozen Maybe?:(
Vets?....I'll be honest and say I have seen maybe 10 that are nice enough to even THINK about helping you. Let alone even acknowledgeing you presence.
Maybe a dozen I have met. I know there are FAR more than that in this Game.
I'm trying so hard to just SHUT up anymore. Best if ya say nothing. Lord knows more often than not youll get a ear full if you even suggest or ask anything anymore.
Just my impressions as of late.
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Originally posted by RedTop
Yeah:rolleyes: Maybe 10? Dozen Maybe?:(
Vets?....I'll be honest and say I have seen maybe 10 that are nice enough to even THINK about helping you. Let alone even acknowledgeing you presence.
Maybe a dozen I have met. I know there are FAR more than that in this Game.
I'm trying so hard to just SHUT up anymore. Best if ya say nothing. Lord knows more often than not youll get a ear full if you even suggest or ask anything anymore.
Just my impressions as of late.
I'll wing with you guys anytime Redtop , even though you let all those pommies in the squad ;)
Altho everytime I hear Batfink on vox it's like listening to "the Streets" . A grand don't come for free, does it Batfink ;)