Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Soulyss on January 19, 2000, 03:44:00 AM
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I'm just going to come right out and say it. I love the P-51, not because it's over modeled under modeled or whatever, just that I've had a deep interest in this aricraft for many years and will be flying it for some time to come. I do ok in fights where I can dictate the terms, ie have an altitude advantage to begin with where I begin to have real problems is in HO (which I try to avoid) but any fight that begins on even terms I'm in deep trouble usually. Any experienced pon jocks out there that have any advice I'd love to here it. I now most the basics and have been playing here for a couple months now. Thanks for the help in advance. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-19-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-26-2000).]
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I dont think you need to be imbarest to fly the latest version of the P51. The UFO-D is gone.
I took it up a couple of time. Got a handful of kills. Im not really a pony pilot. But based on what little experiance I have. I would say to keep your E up at all costs. And dont fire until you are around 150 yrds. If you have others around to finnish your kills you can get away with a little spry and pray. But i was taking on 4 guys when I tried it. and this was the only thing that worked for me.
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I'm not really qualified to give advice on a pony..or any other plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)..but here goes.
1) The pony is an E fighter so it won't out turn a majority of the planes in the game (190 is only exception).
2) It operates better in the vertical than in the horizontal.
3) It's 6 .50's pack a great punch..but only at point of convergence...
SO...
1) E fighters need to be employed from a position of advantage..dont engage higher bogies if possible..climb at an angle 90 degrees to fight till your co-alt or higher.
2) use shallow dive and wep to maximize e at merge. Try and "bottom out 1500 under bogie at 2000 or so and begin gentle climb to merge.
3) if bogie goes nose down to HO apply rudder and pull up gently to vertical. You now "on the perch" and can prosocute attack from position of advantage.
If bogie stays over you..thats a warning sign..If he extends use low G climb to reverse..if he starts a gentle climbing turn..drop the nose and run for help.
On offense...use the ponys vertical manuvering and E to rope your opposition..you need to be wary of 109's (G6&G10) since they outclimb,outturn and out accelerate you (same for La5) and 190's in the vertical (combined roll and acceleration in dive make vertical scissors losing bet) Most others you can use low G zooms to gain advantage on.
On defensive your weakness is your slow acceleration and poor sustained turn rate..so..
Never let pony under 225 IAS and never initiate a turn under 5k or so with other bogies around. Always have a 2k advantage at start of attack and work down to bogies level..dont go under bogie till your more proficient..one good ploy is dive in and level 500 over bogie...begin gentle pull up bout 1500 out if he slow and goes nose up..pull straight up and chop throttle, if you time it right you'll drop right on him..you'll die if you misjudge his e badly.
If he pulls up and has e continue in a shallow zoom climb ...if he gains you're now the grasshopper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)...if he starts to fall back
pul up to maintain seperation..idealy you'll stall him out 1500 ft directly under you..
Hope this helps a bit..just remember you got this from a grasshopper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thanks guys, I'll have to try some of this out sometime. Is there any situation in this game where the P51 can out turn a 109?. I've read Bud Andersons book numerous times and he states on several occassions out turning 109's. Is this the case at higher speeds? where the 109's maneuverability suffers? if so if there any way to exploit the high speed handling of the P51 vs. the 109 without totally blacking out?.
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I've never read the book...but there is a link posted in this BBS to an excerpt. In it he talks about the one german who got on his six (only time ever i think). Anyway he beats him in the end by a combination of throttle chop and a notch of flaps the 109 goes vertical and he gets him at top of rope...only way i think you'll out corner a 109 here is similiar tactics HOWEVER in AH the 109 would go vertical hang the prop and saw you in half when you stalled out.
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Good Pony tips. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am an F4U Pilot until I get my P47, but I take a few spins in the Pony.
About all I can add is that the "never get slow" advice above is the best there is. People say the pony can't turn... but that's not true. The pony can't turn slow.. but fast it has a great turn rate. Your goal in the Pony on a co-E merge should be to be at 300 Mph or so... the higher the better. Generall speaking, the only way to die in the pony is to get low and slow.. so stay fast and if you go below 5k be haulin' bellybutton while you do it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Also, don't be afraid to turn and extend... it's what the pony does best. When you see 3 cons pop in above you, get the hell out of there. Most times, the cons will get busy with an easier target and you can come back 1 min later with a big advantage and kick some ass.
It was mentioned that the pony is an E fighter, this is true, it is one of the best. The way to actually use it as one is to conserve your E. To conserve energy, watch your G meter and stay in the verticle. You don't want to pull over 3 g's if you can help it... smooth and gentle is the trick to keeping your E. If you are pulling to black-out you are dumping E as fast as you can... so make sure you only do this when it is safe to do so. Watch your sector counters and radar so you know when bad guys are on the way or when you are alone and can burn E for a kill.
Also, one note about gunnery. The 6 .50's on the pony don't need to be really close for best effect, they are good longer range weapons. I know Vila and I both keep our convergence out at 250-300 in the stang (Vila ROCKS in the stang) and we both have great success hitting at that range. Firing close in is only really necessary in lower muzzle velocity weapons like cannons, the .50 cals are good out to 300. Just make sure you fire close to your convergence and get a sustained burst in to be sure of a kill.
Good luck!
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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yeah I need to keep my eye on how many G's I'm pulling that may be part of my problem. I set my .50's to converge at 400 for the outer 2 pairs and 425 for the inner pair and they can deal out a respectible amount of hurt at those ranges. I generally fire at anything around or below 500ft away. Managed to rack up a decent kill ratio that way. Watch out for those 20mm's though I've been torched from 1k back. Granted I wasn't doing a lot of manuevering at the time because I thought I was out of range, but it still tore me up real fast. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As far as Bud Anderson goes the vertical kill he mentions in the first chapter he did get ahead of by dropping a notch of flaps. But in other chapters he states that the 51 was more nimble and recounts other occasions when he out turned an opponent. If anyone as any other advice I can never have enough so please keep it coming! hehe.
Again thanks for the input.
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Many of the pilots Bud Anderson was fighting where not very experianced. He might get away with the same things here but more likly he would get his hat handed to him if he tried to stall fight a good Spit, bf109, niki, or la5 pilot. These planes are all very capable as modeled and the 51 is as capable as any of them but only get in a turn and burn to save your wingman.
I would note as well that the 51 and spit still have one common advantage against the other planes. It subjective but dont they feel like supperior shooting platforms? more positive control for fine corrections or something?. Gunnery fast or slow just seems more positve in them, maybe its the trajectory of the 50 cal?
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Pongo
Sturm Gruppe
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I am no where close to an expert, but I'll toss out something that hasn't been specifically mentioned that often resulted in kills for me when I was flying p51's (been on a 190 & N1k kick for awhile now). Its the low yo-yo. I don't know what physics are behind the phenomenon (lift working with gravity?), but you can pull a 180 degree nose-low turn over 2 seconds faster in a p51 than you can a flat 180 degree turn with the same G-load.
Now of course other people can do the same thing, but there are many arena pilots that like to flat turn.
Gordo
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Soulyss,
There are several instances where a Mustang can out turn other planes. Remember the Mustang has a very good instantanious turn rate at speed. It's weak point is that it's sustained turn rate is low although if you keep speed up and go easy on the "Gs" it's sustained turn rate isn't bad either.
Additionally the Mustang retains energy very well if it isn't squandered in hi "G" manuvers. As said before the Mustang's true vurtue is the zoom climb, never pull a long turn in the Mustang. Instead pull for the quick turn and shot at the breaking con, then unload the stick and pull up into a low "G" loop looking over your shoulder for the cons reaction. If he continues in the turn, continue over the top, roll the lift vector to a lead angle and come roaring back down for another shot. Repeat as necessary (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sharky
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ok guys I'm back hehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Been getting pounded on since V1.0 came along. Keep getting bounced by higher cons, anytime I get a bead on someone and go down after him 3 of his friends show up above us and I end up getting my fany shot off. Also the F4U-1C has been chewing me up real good in any high alt co-E encounter. Is there any way the P51 can win a co-E HO ecounter? I've tried a couple things but with no luck. My only pretty stead fast rule that I fly by is not to go HO with someone if they try it I usually try to dive under them to get my speed up so I can manuever. But after that I'm lost. At best I can keep the angles even and get into another HO but I can't ever seem to get behind them for any decent firing solution, can the P51 win a fight like this? Keep that good stuff coming along (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I really appreciate all your help.
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-26-2000).]
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CC that, Yesterday flying with the Bishops I got bounced multiple times in my Poney at Alt 28K or More !!! There were LOTS of Nikki's and 190's up there, hiding in the clouds...
Made some nice pursuits, but sigh...
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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 01-26-2000).]
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Here's what I do when forced into a HO situation and I just dont feel like diving out of it. When they get within d1.5 I begin to do an aileron roll that way I present a bit more difficult target to hit. I also, start firing at that range and pray I do enough damage or kill them outright. This may or may not be something that works. For me it's been pretty successful except against the handful of truly excellent pilots out there.
baneX
=357th Pony Express=
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You have more guts than I do my friend. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The pony should be more than a match for the F4U-1c co-e at any alt (correct me guys if I'm wrong here). My guess is your confusing oc-alt and co-e. The hog is cabable of building a big head of steam in a shallow dive and generating huge amounts of E.
On a co-alt merge (1 on 1)I'll enter a shallow dive at max range (8k) and look to establish some horizontal seperation as well. Ideally I'll be in a gentle nose up position with a 20-30 degree angle at 2500. This gives you lots of options to avoid HO's and try various openers.
If you keep the fight moving up the ponys climb advantage will kill the 1 easily.
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Never actually considered that one.. I'm usually blowin in from above and bein the orrible pilot I am get in a bad situation with low E almost everytime.. doesn't help that I now have rudder control and am not used to it, but I'll have to try that one out sometime.
baneX
=357th Pony Express=
"Need a package delivered? Call the Pony Express"
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One thing about the Hog is its *huge* rudder. That thing has superior rudder authority at low speeds. In fact, much better than 109 !
If you fight P 51 in Hog just by pulling on the stick, you are about even. But if you start using rudder tricks, you gain an edge quickly.
Just met a great pilot in the arena and was impressed by all those slices and reversals.
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Here are a few things I'd like to add.
When you see a con, level out with auto-level, are the retrim has happened go to a .5 dive until you are at 225 at a minimum. I climb at a max of 190, just so I have the roll outand spped dive ability. Yes even if he is above you. a level 51 is an inviting target, once the con has target fixation, you can spit-S roll out and he will either over shoot you, or climb back up and try again.
HO's are a losing battle in a pony. A high speed roll out inside of 1.2 will change the jouster's AOT enough to save yer bacon. Extend and gentle climb until you have the "E" advantage.
Convergence: Main 4 at 200. Outside 2 at 250. I tag with my outboard 2 then when I see hits, chainsaw with the main 4. At 500 the outboard guns bullets have crossed at 250 and are at the same wingspan spred from which they were fired (only weaker). This gives you a bit of "spray & prey" and a HO deturent.
150 is a bit close when traveling 300+ knots.
Fight in the vertical. Stay fast. Ride the elevator trim in dives and climbs to retain "E". Re-trim every 5k.
I'm look for 3 (or more)deicated pony pilots to join my squadron on Sunday mornings 9am-noon Eastern US, (6am-9am Western US) and learn wingman tactics.
I havn't been posting as much, and flying more, it shows :-)
All Knights Feel free to e-mail me about pony driving related stuff. All others are just targets.
Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight
99th Pursuit Squadron, 327th A.C.G.
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I have a great affection for the P51.. and have had some very good rides in it. It is however; fraught with weaknesses; and your opponents are aware of them all. To get the best out of it; try to keep as many options as possible open.. don't get backed into an on the deck situtaion. Down there yer options are damn few.. or none.
All the advice I've seen here has been outstanding and I have only one thing to add...
Tactics: Use the one-circle fight. We'll assume you are merging with your opponent. If you both break in opposite directions; yer in a two circle fight; and you will be looking at another HO at best in 6 seconds. At worst; he'll get well inside you and hammer you at about 15 degrees off before you can even get yer guns on him.
Suggestion: At the merge; start a pre turn.. a little nose low; and at close to corner speed.*** (@325ias at 10k) Which ever way he turns.. GO THAT WAY. Now yer inna one-circle fight; following him around the turn.. If he goes up; hold yer nose down a bit longer to keep the e building; then pull up after him to tag him on the top. I call this 'gettin in the saddle'. One you've got him in front of you manuvering; you have all the chips.. and can cash them as necessary.
If he's getting angles; you can always break away and dive out.. and drag him to yer pals.
*** Most common mistake at a merge where u intend to turn with your opponent is to come in waaaay to fast. This leaves only going UP as your first move; and your opponent will no doubt be looking for you to do just that. You meet one of these new spits or 109's with that move and find out too late he was fast too, then compound the error by pulling back towards him instead of gettin outta Dodge.. well then; you may have your head handed to you.
Remember.. if it is your intent to manuver.. come to the merge at your best manuver speed; and turn the way he does.. not opposite.
One move that has worked for me repeatedly is the FAST merge. On this one I do it 'all wrong'.. I come to the guy at 500IAS and pull up at the merge into a climbing left hander.. this puts me well above the opponent if he flat turns; and I'm 'on the perch' as was described earlier in the thread. If he has a lot of E and goes up too; then I'm back to a second HO developing.. and then it's either the 'slow merge' scenario.. I can opt to dodge his HO shot and at the break swing around with him, again avoiding a two-circle fight. Or; if he's shown he's got the inside track; I can roll away; dive and run like a screamin little girl. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hope this helps...
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Soulyss. If you find yourself getting bounced by higher cons after you've dived on one of their friends, it's not really a "P51" issue, its more of a "Situational Awareness" issue.
Anytime you are considering diving in to attack, take a few seconds to have a look around first. Check your radar, check the position of the nearest enemy field. Have a bit of a think about the likely ingress points of enemy cons and scan that region of sky carefully.
If your radar shows enemy dots inbound, wait until you get a visual on them before committing to an attack.
Now if you still decide to dive in, and suddenly find yourself with 2 or more high cons after you.. your first and only thought should be survival. Don't try to go on the attack immediately. They probably already have an energy advantage over you, and unless they are flying B26's or B17's they have a turn rate advantage as well.
So beat feet towards friendly territory... and establish a slight climb so you can level the energy stakes.
In a real emergency, sometimes a dive to the deck works well... cons at 20k are often reluctant to give up all that hard won altitude in order to pursue a single aircraft down low.
I think it was Fletchman who once said, "if you don't have a maneuverability advantage, you'd better make sure you have an energy advantage before deciding to engage". Good advice. Many of the guys I see get killed in the arena die not because of failures in flying skill, but because of being too aggressive at the wrong time..... flying with the balls instead of the brain.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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If I follow someone down to the deck in a fight and then get bounced by his friends I'll probably just pound my head on the desk and curse my lousy luck and get back up there and have a go at it. My biggest problems are When I've spent time to climb up to +20k alt only to come across a bunch of baddies at 30k hehe. If it's one thing I hate it's a fair fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) thanks for the tips guys if any of you pony drivers see my online I'd love to wing with ya. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 02-07-2000).]
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Hangtime...
couple questions on your one circle fight:
1) do you hi/low yoyo to keep your 325 corner speed?
2) when you convert from lag to lead do you simply pull more G's or pop flaps at some point?
3)If i'm the con I'd probably split-s out vs going up...my instinct in a pony would be to follow with some kind of inverted hi yoyo..figuring I'd have e to catch you..I'd worry bout overshooting and bottoming out under the con on split-s if i followed...what do you reccomend there?
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My $.02 Humble,
1. Use the yoyo's to let gravity help you turn, and avoid pulling high G's. By using yoyo's, you can keep your speed up and preserve E.
2. Normally when converting to Lead I'll just pull a bit more G. However, don't do it untill you have a good shot at a kill, because it's going to burn some E and that's a bad thing if he doesn't die.
3. If you are fast enough go up.. let the spitball go down assuming you are faster. Don't try to pull big G's or pop flaps unless you can kill him right then, or you are putting yourself in a world of hurt. Go up and let gravity help you turn while it works against him... you'll win. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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thanx lephturn
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Rgr what lept said.. regarding flaps.. thats a chip cashin move. You put them down yah better be in the kill zone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
re: The low split s by the spit.. I'd yo yo up; and sprial climb over.. if he runs, he's meat when he breaks. (spits dont extend very well.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) but chances are he's gonna grab a bit of e from the split S and try to zoom up to you. Don't take the bait.. climb over him and wait till he tops out. Then rudder over and dive down to slice his wings off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Caution.. Watch those e states. If he's got more than yah think he'll pick yah off on the perch!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8