Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Nash on April 29, 2000, 05:27:00 AM
-
I got into a brief discussion about this with humble... and I figure it's an interesting subject.
From BFM to advanced ACM, there's a heck of a lot to wade through. Books and books worth.
My question is, where do you start when a new guy says to you: "I want to learn how to dogfight"?
-
Er, and lets assume he knows how to fly, he knows the mechanics of this particular sim, he has a handle on views and he has a basic understanding of terms like energy.
Nevertheless, he's gettin' killed allatime, and he's coming to you wanting to know how to 'dogfight'.
What is your approach, and what follows?
-
Nash,
The first thing I do is fight him straight up. The object is to allow me to see what he knows and what he lacks.
For instance the most common thing I see is that half roll, diving pass with guns ablaze, pull into a split S on the merge. Thats the first thing I try to break a student of is that "gotta shoot if I can see a con in my foward view" syndrome.
I spend a lot of time talking to my students. After a fight I will make them tell me how they got killed. You'd be really suprised how a few leading questions will have a student telling you exactly how they screwed themselves.
Once I have identified a basic flaw in their tactics I set up a scenerio or exercise that allows them to correct that error and have them fly it several times and explain to me what they are doing and why. Then we move on to the next thing until they can put together a good "smart" fight.
Sharky
-
What he said. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
popeye
-
Ditto,generally I focus on the merge and try to impress on them this is where the fight is won-or lost.
-
My ACM skills are rather crude. I will often pass a student on to a more experienced trainer, if one is in the TA, as soon as I realize that their skills are equal or exceed my own.
That said, I sometimes do find a player that I can work with. Like Sharky said, most of the time in-experienced players will always try to get their nose on you to shoot. They do not manuver for the "Set-up" they manuver for the "Shot".
If they don't know, I'll teach them to use E conserving vertical turns. They will almost always initially use hard flat turns attempting to get lead. This will be the first thing I will attempt to break them of.
I also try to introduce the concept of "Driving toward the corner" or "Flying to the elbow" vice "Pulling hard lead to get a shot". (LOL my biggest mistake (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Perhaps, often times, what I emphasize the most is "You can't really do this in the MA, because someones buddy will come along shortly and blow you out of the sky". I explain the hazards of an extended dogfight and then show or explain why. This is when I try to make them aware of their E state, and realize that when a good time to "Bug Out" presents itself, take it while you still can.
All this is well said and done. However, most of my students are still stumbling with views, radio, trim, etc... About 60% of my time is helping them with the game familiarization and set-up. This is not the glory end of the game, but is the most important for new players.
BTW Nash, thanks for asking. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
-
To me, Sharky summed up where 95% of my students have been. Once I am sure a pilot can "fly", I ask them to attack me. I will merge intentionally lower than them to see how they handle what should be a pretty sure kill. As Sharky stated, most bore right in, Split-S, then overshoot big as I pull a big, lazy loop over their heads. I might do that a couple times, explaining how important it is to stay up, demonstrate, and if they don't "see it", explain with some simple physics (two identical planes, one is faster, which has greater inertia? How do you think that affects turn rate?)
I also add that one should enter any 1 vs 1 fight planning for at least 3 turns, don't blow all your advantage for one bad shot, etc.
Once I have that satisfactorily taught (where you at least see the student attempting the right moves) I move to the timing issue. Some moves are the "right" move, but only for a fleeting period of time (example: just when to kick rudder over on the fish you have roped, when to break from an enemy on your 6, how to time lag rolls to keep the bad guy in your lift vector, etc.)
I would look at it like this; you can't teach a raw beginner everything about ACM in one lesson. All you can do is give them the general idea and send them off to try some things. They are still going to die, but they will have a better understanding why that happens, and will learn how to better control the conditions that cause death. Ultimately, they die less and in time become proficient enough to deal some of their own. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Of course, some people pick it up quicker than others.
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 04-29-2000).]
-
I made this mistake with WIZ.
I assumed he knew the basic flight stuff and began working on the merge right off the top.
Too many times he was stalling, hitting the ground, etc.
So I started getting him to follow the leader (me) guns cold, and took him through REAL basic ACM. This is a breaking turn. This is a loop. etc. Through each I got him to discribe what he noticed about the planes behavior. In breaking turns you slow, in loops you tend to rotate slightly, etc.
Got him practicing rolls without loosing alt or making big course variations. Told him to practice them 200 ft off the deck for accuracy testing.
That seemed to help alot cause it also taught him how to read where the nme plane is going based on their orientation.
He doesn't stall nearly as much now.
-
WW-
Yeah, I had 4 guys at once the other night (no jokes, please! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). Since there was no hope of breaking it down one-on-one, I decided that it would be better to get them in the air and run down a checklist of things (radio, views, js damper settings, autopilots- the whole bit).
After that we did some follow the leader. The first round was some easy BFM. I checked back to see how everyone was hanging, watching for anyone spinning out. Things looked good, so I sped it up next round and pulled some more G's. Things still looked ok after a bit, so I went for the full shake. Here I lost them, but they didn't do too poorly. In the final round I told them all to shoot me, and I would last as long as I could (and of course I was the ONLY thing they were to shoot!). Eventually one managed to realize the best thing to do here was to extend out of the fight a little and and come back with a good line on me (while the others kept me tied up).
After that we went to the base and did some all vs. me stuff that really helped them, I think. I never shot any of them down, yet they all knew when they were goners, and told me so. It turned out to be one of the most productive multiple sessions I've had.
Which leads me to this thought; perhaps we should have a weekly class where we could teach a particular skill or aircraft?
-
I try to focus on the technical aspects of flying, using the features of the software, and learning the whole game. There's a LOT more to this game to furballing.
But if a guy asks for dogfight help, you gotta make sure they can fly first.
Use the same plane as them and do a co-alt merge. You can tell pretty quick if their problem is technical or tactical.
If it's technical then teach them how to fly. Have them follow you through various ACM until they figure it out. If they really struggle with a maneuver, ride in their plane and let them ride in yours. That's a good way to diagnose their mistake and let them see what it should look like.
Also some guys don't have the views down pat. Lose sight, lose the fight. Help them get the views set up and drill them on keeping a bandit in sight at all times.
Usually once a guy has a handle on the technical aspects I just tell him to go fly, and get some trigger time. That helps more than anything. Then they can come back and ask for more specific help.
Now if they have a tactical problem it usually falls into one of the following categories.
1. They haven't figured out lead turns yet. Lead and lag pursuit lessons, and practice lead turns from a HO merge.
2. They don't understand the scissors/rolling scissors. How to create lag by flying a longer path, and how to lower turn radius by climbing, reducing speed, and letting gravity help you.
3. They don't understand guns defense - out of plane maneuvering.
4. SA and Judgement. They are having trouble choosing the right plane to attack, or misjudging the energy state of the enemy, or they don't understand the capabilities of the enemy's plane.
Finally, everybody should have a copy of Shaw's book. Even if you can't figure out the jargon, the pictures are worth a zillion trainer explanations!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-29-2000).]
-
We talked a bit Nash..and sharky Kieren et al..have covered it pretty completely...but here's my thought proccess.
I agree you have to fly 1 on 1 to get a feel for where they're at.
I do the following...on 1st merge I set up co-e...then assume a little vertical/horizontal seperation..how a flier handles this is my 1st clue to his tactical knowledge. Thosewho orientate on me as a "target" are tactical novices..those that dive for the under position are a leg up...those who kind of slide away or equalize..are usually already pretty good.
Now on the merge I'll avoid the offered HO if taken (75% or so) and offer a "tweener"...a merge thats not fish or fowl... I'll look to see if opponent is flying his "fight" of adjusting to my move. That will clue me in to his SA in 1 on 1 ...suprised how many folks don't actually "see" fight (to be honest is my biggest weakness). Now most folks are toast here..and i'll call out..if not I'll go E on an angles opener and angles on an E opener...if they jump on opening...then i'll complement them and ask what they want help on. Most of the time they don't and I'll playit to end game...tickle em (.303 oer such) and then walk thru fight. I make it a point to play by play every fight..usually 4-5 per session.
I find that 80% or more of the folks I work with fly better than they think they do, but are tactically worse. I start working with folks on 3 basic "rules"
1) don't fall for nose down shot's early on in a fight (starting with HO's)
2) you never lose a good shot, don't force bad snap shots, work for a good shot.
3) Work on "seeing" the whole fight..you cant counter what you don't see.
Thats kind of it for round 1
-
It's so enlightening hearing the different viwepoints on this. My tendancy has been to describe the difference between turn radius and turn rate, and how that translates into a nose-nose vs a nose-tail posture, for example. But... did ya hear that swooooshing noise? That's the sound of this going right over most new fellahs' head.
I completely *forgot* how essential the merge is. Duh - like weazel said, and basically it's mirrored by the rest of ya, that's where the fight is usually won and lost...
I think Kieren's idea is a great one. A scheduled night where one or two things get discussed in detail. Back in my mac days, we used to have these all the time. I can remember giving a few lectures on *just* the merge itself. It's funny how I've forgotten its importance to new guys.
We did this using Irc... of which Mirc is the PC version. How do these things usually take place on PC's? And should something like this be started up for AH?
-
Great thread Nash,
I was just rereading the posts and wanted to add a thought. We all seem to arrive at the same point. A combination of "what" did you do...and "why" did you do it. I'll use my last "session".
Jcy19 and I spent sometime earlier tonight. The whole session evelved into 1 topic...energy retension...He's a truely outstanding "angles" dogfighter. I flew the 1st couple in a 109f vs his spit V...he just waxed me totally...but I saw a few things that explained his E problems..we went on to spit vs spit and had some excellent fight's.
I strung a merge and acm's designed to play on his agressive angles attack...and think i helped him a bit to understand the differance between outstanding flying skills..and good tactic's. I'd say all my "good" sessions really involve finding one key concept that I can pass on. If I can key on one thought or skill and improve it..I can make an impact that will carry over.
I'd love to get jcy19'scomments if he happens to read this or anyone else who went thru a session..with any of us.
-
Great idea. It would be fantastic to hear from the people that have gone through a training session. What are your impressions? In what way do you learn the best? Has anything stood out? Did you have a "ah hah!" moment and what did it stem from?
Also, did you have any periods where you just couldn't understand what the trainer was trying to get across? What was it and why do you think that was?
er... stuff like that.
-
heh.
just let the scars of learning sink in and try to avoid things that make you go kaboom. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
"There are no born fighter pilots. Some are a little better than others, thats about it. But I would say time, training, training, training and more training are the key... to any success." -Francis Gabreski
Citabria
=357th Pony Express=
-
For reading. I suggest krods flight sim pages. Or warbird pages. Some guys are shy about asking for help. The basic,s are the same here as they are in WB.
www.nitro.co.za/propsim/ (http://www.nitro.co.za/propsim/)
www.nitro.co.za/warbirds/hatchlings/index.html (http://www.nitro.co.za/hatchlings/index.html)
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-30-2000).]
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-30-2000).]
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-30-2000).]
-
This is a really good thread - I am one of the described newbies who thinks he can fly but gets shot all the time - Nash can testify for that from last night.
I would certainly like to fly with you Sharky to see if you can get me to see how I can improve because at the moment I just can't seem to get it together. I think your approach to teaching someone new sounds spot on.
I have flown with a few trainers now and usually the session starts well then deteriorates because I am having trouble understanding what the trainer is trying to tell me over the text buffer. Then I'll have an "ah ha" moment and another tiny piece of the jigsaw drops in.
A couple of points as far as I'm concerned as regards methods:-
1. I can't type and fly at the same time - I'm just not good enough yet and my brain and hands don't keep up. It is more useful to review after landing or in an autopilot cruise break.
2. Several times I think "I just lost the plot / blew this manouvre and I'd like to stop now to see what went wrong" but often we carry on flying the excercise and I forget exactly what happened. Perhaps some kind of "break" call would be useful to stop the action and get an immediate feedback.
3. I think the prediction of where you and your oppo is going to be in the next "n" seconds is the hardest thing for someone to get to grips with (from my own experience) and it seems one of the things that is hardest to be taught. I think that is the cause of the views problems that hmble? pointed out - I always go for the next view thinking "he's down there..." and bingo he isn't because in my head I've mis-calculated our relative movement. Lose sight for 3-5 seconds and your history. Perhaps someone could devise an exercise forlearning where to look - difficult....
All in all I think everyone here does a fantastic job of bringing on newbies. I have come across from AW3 and this is way better.
I would like to perhaps wave a warning flag about formalising the TA tooo much though. In AW training was to a set schedule and very managed. The result was I didn't get to much of it because:-
a) I live in UK and the times were always EST freindly (you are too tired to learn at 2.00am (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
b) As a busy working person any booked time type leisure stuff tends to take a back seat to family / business.
What I have found in AH with the "walk in see who's there" policy is I have actually trained more. Sometimes no-one is interested and that's fair enough (it's all volunteered time after all) but generally speaking I get to fly with someone or get some kind of feedback.
I like the idea of different areas for different tasks - maybe we could have a ground gunnery area with targets and a dive bombing target practice area. How about target towing "drones" controlled by the server just wandering to and fro for total beginners to learn basic a to a gunnery.
Anyway this is long enough ....
-
A few points I forgot on re-read.
1. All my "ah ha" moments were about manouvres I didn't understand how to do and the problem usualy stemmed from the terminolgy used by the guy training me and me non comprende - "do a reverse triple thrunge whatsit .." > "errr a what" > " you know like a loop triple thrunge doofer but flat.." > "eerrrrrr....." > shows me in join view > "oohhhh you mean and roll and pull thingy.."
2. The join view is hard to follow as it is very jerky and the g-meter appears not to register (or is that a fault with my software).
3. Training fights / manouvre flights should be short - broken up with auto pilot breaks - us poor newbie brains are taxed to the limit and can overload easily. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Shaw's book is a good one and even though it was written for jets, there are some sound tactics in there. I got my cross merge from there. There's a lot of good ACM geometry that I find helpful. My biggest problem in AH is getting used to the planes. I can usually tell when I'm flying with a stick. They tend to out turn me in equal menouvers with equal planes & E even when I start out with the advantage.
The rest of them always seem to get dragged into attacking nose down.
But TA being what it is, people are totally on their SA which is a good thing. I've gotten a couple kills in MA where the pilots didn't even know I was comming up on their 6. Do they forget their SA in MA or did they never have it?
Additionally, and I guess not so surprisingly, I've lost a trainer and a few sticks in "On the deck" low speed dances. IN my mind, one of the hardest fights to push home/stay alive in. Nash and I died together (at the same time) in one of these. Has there been so much attention placed on the "Normal" fight that low speed stuff has been forgotten or is this an aspect of the fight I should never be finding myself in anyway?
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-30-2000).]
-
Low and slow with an enemy behind you is not a place you want to be, but it is useful to know how to deal with it if it happens. You don't always live (in fact, if the other guy knows what he's doing you shouldn't live) but you can often turn the tables on the unwary.
-
I would have to guess that the on-the-deck scissors type fightin' doesn't come up much because the trainers are helping you avoid this kind of situation, and cover the other situations (merge etc.) first. However, your right - against someone with equall skill, the fight will wind down to the deck 90% of the time. Scissors are definately something yer gonna want to add to your library of manuevers eventually.
Oh - and very good ctitique Sparks. That was exactly the kind of thing I was curious about.
-
I was there ( newbie to AH but not flight sims ) when humble was teaching jcy19. I saw his chat. Sounds like jcy19 is doing alot better than me, lol.
Basically I think there are different levels of newbies. Those who have ZERO knowledge of flight sims and ACM, and then those who know the basic principles and have flown in other sims but don't understand how to apply that in AH.
I flew FA1.5 in SEMI and FULL REAL PHYSICS for 6-7 months then converted to FAII and fly TC( Intermediate physics ) and ADV TC( Advanced physics ). I know basic principles but mostly I do what comes natural.
After testing the Spit 9( my first time in AH ) I was having problems not stalling and spinning alot. So then I decided to try out a more vertical and energy fighter like a 109. So I took a 109G-10 into the MA. I only got maybe 2 kills but I was having more success adjusting to the 109's flight model in AH.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE angles fighting. But I need more practice in performing ACM in AH without stalling or spinning. Also trimming in FAII was a matter of hitting a button that trimmed all surfaces to your current flight path. So AH trimming is something I am getting use too. As well as non padlock, which I kinda like.
Even tested the 109G-10 with the elevator trim set up, Heard the actual 109 pilots use to do this. It makes is easier to pull up vert after the intial attack. But it was difficult to point the nose down. Still testing this out.
So far I like AH alot. I have bragged about it in the FAII NG and game rooms. Like the teachers in the TA room and the ability for them to jump into your cockpit. That is a great feature. As far as my flying, I am getting there slowly. Jumping from sim to sim does not help either. Although AH, helped me to be more patient in my attack and wait for the perfect shot.
hdscout
-
hdscout,
I think any of us (trainers) can help you speed up the learning proccess. Based on what you wrote I think you've got good experience base to build on. I'll give you a few general observations that may help you. The following are my own thought's based on my 6 months of flying AH vs my 4-5yrs in AW. I welcome comment's,critiques,corrections if anyone feels they're needed.
The AH flight model seems to bleed E faster than any other, so proper positioning in an angles fight is essential. You need to learn to fly "inside" your opponent when neg E...and fly a vertical angles game early on.
I don't believe any kind of predominately horizontal angles works here at all. The rudder here is the real tool for angles flying...it's a finer touch than AW for sure..it'll act as a speed brake, good and bad at same time...no rudder and you'll get out turned..to much and you suck E to fast..so rudder pedals a must for true angles flier.
As a last thought, I believe that AH favors an aggresive angles flier, it seems that you can "hang on" reasonably well if you get early position...even if you've blown alot of E...the key is to ease off and fly an E fight...a lot of times the con will fly aggressively enough to evade to equalize E state without really reversing situation. This is were the E bleed helps you on back end...I'll bet your just pushing a little harder than you have to after merge...
Just a few thoughts..hope they help..look me up in TA if you want some more help. Also, curious if you could follow the recaps on jcy19's "lesson"...I am curious if it helps or hurts to have that on ch 1...figure it may help someone listening..but not really sure.
-
WW,
>>>My biggest problem in AH is getting used to the planes. I can usually tell when I'm flying with a stick. They tend to out turn me in equal menouvers with equal planes & E even when I start out with the advantage.<<<
>>>Additionally, and I guess not so surprisingly, I've lost a trainer and a few sticks in "On the deck" low speed dances.<<<
This is why I feel that most folks fly better than they think...and have worse "tactical positioning" than they think.
A good example happened to me yesterday, I was in a 38 and had a nice little dance with tern (in a spit 5)...we went a good 3-4 minutes under 2000 ft, with 3-4 "re-merge's".
He asked me how I good out turn, him out loop him, and out run him...all in same fight. I tried to explain to him (not real well I guess) that I wasn't really out turning him...I was maintaining better tactical positioning...I was nose up when turning vs his nose down, looping when he was faster (thats the "flying inside" reference I keep making) and catching him nose up as I extended to remerge.
I kept trying to tell him , not even Citabria can make a 38 out turn a spit. I'm amazed at times as a trainer how good some of the evasives I see are once folks get down to the deck and "tactics" dissappear from their mind.
-
Hi All,
Sorry I haven't been up much the last few days, the @home network has been coughing up blood the last few days.
Anyway Sparks, if you want to get together in the TA drop me a line at ftgcss@home.com and we'll set up a time we can both live with, maybe a weekend where neither of us has to get up the next day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As to all that have talked about trying to type and fly, thats why I like to use short flights and long discussions on the ground. I think it is important that the student understand what is trying to be taught before going up and then be able to discribe what happened in the air.
Most new guys thing that there is some magic move that will make them an Ace. Unfortunatly the only think that works is practice, practice and more practice. I'm sure all the old Warbirds vets can atest to how much money they spent at $2.00/hr. learning the art of ACM.
Additionally the guy that really wants to do well at ACM has to take some of his own time to do some reading. Shaw's book is a must read along with Flet's lectures. (Flet's lectures can be found on the Warbirds website under the training section)
That reminds me. Flet used to do some great lectures on the net. I'm not a net weenie so I don't know how these were set up, but these would be great to see again.
Sharky
-
Well, I am not an official trainer but have enjoyed going into the TA and taking anyone who wants any help under my wing for a little tutelage.
What I found today is that there are more and more online sim newbies who are coming online who have had little experience with even offline sims. A statement like, "I cant get this plane to turn as well as the enemy can" quickly leads you to find out that they havent learned about the the trim features and so thats where ya start.
Before you even start going on about E retention, maneuvering and positioning....teach them how to get the most out of their plane. Once you show them how trim works, set them off to practice on their own. THEN you can get down to BFM and ACM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ding
-
Good point dingy,
Coming from AW, trim a new thing to me entirely. Combined with FM issues and gunnery I really haven't focused on it.
I almost never trim in the middle of a fight...unless i'm trimmed at 350 and end up in a slow T&B I leave it alone. Would love to get some feedback on trim issues from you and others. I trim elv 1st, rudder 2nd airleon last in combat situation...that best order in your mind?
-
First off, let me begin by tellin you that I wouldn't offer much that most don't already know. The only reason I've been successful in the past with various A/C (Yes, I fly them all) is:
A) I always have an advantage over my opponent before engaging.
B) I never get greedy, I will break and run before becoming defensive , because once defensive, with no altitude, I'm dead.(This is definately aircraft-dependant,if in a spit, I may be able to turn the odds, if in a FW190-A8 with no alt, I'm dead)
I think there are many trainers that are better suited for advanced ACM/BFM than I am. I am good at the basics, good at intermediate ACM, BFM, but the advanced stuff I leave to those who've read Shaw. I use the principle of "anticpation" of what the enema will do, rather than my own flying abilities. I wait until the opponent makes a mistake, then I capitilize on it.
In regards to the original question, I ask where the person that I'm training are their weaknesses...then go from there. In life, I've applied the principal "Whereever one is weak, then theres room for improvement". I used to be afraid of heights, so I became a skydiver. I used to be really shy around women, so I bartended for a spell. Etc. Etc.
Improve on one's weaknesses can help turn the weakness into a strength.
------------------
Ripsnort(-rip1-)
I./JG2~Richthofen~
=CO=Panzer Group Afrika-15th Panzer division
JG2 Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when
someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it
only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm, grasp the joystick button,
and shoot the sucker down!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-03-2000).]
-
I live for low & slow fights. There is nothing more entertaining. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
WW You are probably just good. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)