Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Storm7 on January 03, 2005, 01:51:11 AM
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I've been wondering what the rest of you think. There has been a lot of discussion about the large number of bomber formations flying around out there these days. Wave after wave can be seen going after CVs or bases. Why take one when you can take three, right? Do you think mildly perking formations would even out the situation? What are we supposed to do with all of the bomber perks anyway, I hate that jet.
Regards,
Storm7
"You should drink more water. It's good for you."
"Lady, if water can sink a ship, just think what it can do to a man!"
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Lose the formations completely. It's gotten downright silly to see the mobs of buffs coming over in threes. And with the effectivness of the buff guns, it becomes a real roll of the dice watching the fighters roll in on them trying to stop them.
Dan/Slack
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Im saving my bomber perkies for THIS (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ju52.html) !!! when we get it :aok
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Seen that for real and flying
Those realy fly slow.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/picpopup.php?ImgId=15164)
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In the Spanish Civil war they actually used the Tante Ju as a bomber - sigh Civil war Spain would be very cool!!
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It's gotten downright silly to see the mobs of buffs coming over in threes.
I wouldnt mind as much if they werent always treetop level. Its too easy to wipeout a Vbase in one pass vs having to up 3-4 fighters.
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I've had a blast by flying high cap (2-5k) and occasionally can spot them out far enough to set up a HO in my lovely black 110 of love or (if I'm base defense) in an La-7. Either ride will take out all three by holding down the trigger and sweeping the tail back and forth while doing 200mph. They take a real hosing. It's great fun. Please continue buff people you are a source of great enjoyment.
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I dont see why there should be drones in a player vs player game what so ever.
Get rid of em.
Imho AH should be about YOU piloting YOUR plane. Not you commanding AI pilots.
Tex
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Some of us have personally witnessed Cooley's JU prowess in that "other" online sim.
It has been a LONG time...
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The low-level buff groups ruin the game for me.
I would like to see the extra drones perked.
If you have the perkies to lose on low-level go ahead and buff up. Otherwise do what real buffs do and get some alt and escort.
Or let me have 2 free drones when i jabo with a p-38.
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ARTFOX !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
welcome to AH :aok
<<<<<
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Heh just yesterday I landed a smokin B24 formation on the pier and landed all three. Twas fun.
:aok
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Wow, I would think that the fig pilots would love to see all the buff formations come in. I know that ghi shoots down a lot of formations, mine included. It seems as though a lot of you that are complaining have run into 999000 and tatertot. They can be devistating with buffs. 999000 regularly lands kills with buffs. You should see how many kills he gets that he never lands. If they get rid of the formations or perk them, I'd like to see all the gun positions available to multiple gunners so all stations can be manned. Those that flew Air Warrior will know this as a "death star".
BRING THE "DEATH STAR" TO AW!
:D
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Originally posted by 2stony
...Those that flew Air Warrior will know this as a "death star".
...
You mean the Boeing A/B-17 "Blood Dragon".
(http://www.gonzoville.com/content/aw/images/blooddragon.jpg)
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I fly bombers and I KILL bombers. What I feel your really POed about is the low level suicider dive bombing pillox we see every day. Your just voicing it a different way.
It's been said before... disable bombers from droping under so many feet or at a angle of so and so. That ain't going to happen because of the coeding involved I would suspect.:rolleyes:
Remember also that strat targets and base towns are massive now for 3 bombers let alone 1.:(
As for killing bombers it's soooo very easy so long as you ain't SSLLO000oooowwwwwww. It's the easy way to land 3 kills.
Give me a P47 and 6 bombers to shoot at any day. :aok
Till something is done about our Pillox low level diving bomber riders just keep your eyes open for them and nail um fast and hard :D.
LYNX..... ~SOB~
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small perk cost for formations not THAT bad of an idea. As long as they keep it low.
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Originally posted by Cooley
ARTFOX !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
welcome to AH :aok
<<<<<
Glad I could you toward your 500th kill...oops, I mean posting!
[aside] Sadly I have squandered my budget toward that new PC that could have run AH so that I could visit my itinerant brother-in-law BALSUR while he still lives in Germany this next May!
I wish HiTech would port a Mac OSX version of AH.... ooops! I may have broken a dozen taboos there.
G' Night gents!
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This issue seems to come up often.Its kinda the same thing as porking the ords or troopsat every base for 3 sectors. NO its like cv ack No wait its like base ack no who cares perk what ever you like bomb load drones buffs heck perk the guns.Its all about getting to the target not so much as dropping it for me! AND as far as escorts wow wouldnt that be something !!!!!:D
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If HTC were to perk the formation option (10-20), eventually the Suicide Kings (Dive Bombers too) would run out of points. Then they would have to do some real work/flying before they could go after another VH at 1000 feet again.
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Originally posted by Storm7
If HTC were to perk the formation option (10-20), eventually the Suicide Kings (Dive Bombers too) would run out of points. Then they would have to do some real work/flying before they could go after another VH at 1000 feet again.
Rant mode ON
Y'all need to get over yourselves.
IF you used half your brains (a big freeking if, imo) you would fly your "defensive sorties" somewhere other than right over the field.
IF you used even 1/3 of your brain, you would attack bombers in cooperation with some of the other "experten" that are usually waiting over the field to pick off a pony or two on egress from the target.
It's not the invulnerability of the bomber--they get shot down most of the time. IT IS YOUR TIMING DWEEB. Attack the bomber BEFORE he bombs your airfield. Screw up his aim, if nothing else. Learn how to do it. I fly bombers, and gun bombers, and there is a HUGE difference between the typical stern-attacking idjit and some of the real bomber killers in this game. Most are just food. Some are a real challenge to bring down.
I can't count the number of times I hear "bombers coming in!!!" as I take off, only to look around and find all the "brave base defenders" circling over the friendly ack, hoping the targets will come to them, while bombers drop with relative impunity from alts like (gasp) 15k. How do they breathe up there???!!!
Rant mode off.
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I don't think the low level buffs are the problem, they are very easy to defend agenst.
I think that basses are the problem, people would not go on NOE missions so often if they couldn't kill all VHs or FHs in one pass. Spread out the hangers and the problem goes away.
Oh, and if we need to pay perks for formations how about we get as many plains in the formation as we want and pay 100s or 1000s of perks for that large formation
:D
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I like the idea of perking formations..(small cost..maybe 4 perks for B24's..less for others)
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Originally posted by SirLoin
I like the idea of perking formations..(small cost..maybe 4 perks for B24's..less for others)
Agreed. I was thinking 5 perks myself.
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Perking formations would be cool, but if that were the case, why limit it to only 2 drones? Add a curve to it and cram 5+ drones onto a runway. 1 drone = 4 perks, 2 drones = 16 perks, 3 drones = 32 perks, 4 drones = 64 perks, etc.
(http://www.trdparts.com/AH/b24s.JPG)
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I see DoKGonZo took out Ken Dahlberg's P-51B "Beantown Banshee" and pasted in the B-17 in there. The original painting/print is called "Showdown at Berierre" and is one of my favorites.
:aok
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Noo, don't perk formations, let them have , 5-10 drones, my best fun in AH2 is shooting dweebs bombers in 109G10
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Originally posted by ghi:
my best fun in AH2 is shooting dweebs bombers in 109G10
I know, you've nailed me a few times. If this guy thinks its so easy eggin targets with a formation, try taking one against a CV at low level. The ack is murder, and if there's any fighter cover, survival is almost impossible.
;)
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Originally posted by Storm7
[, I hate that jet.
and i don't know why the drones of A234s don't take off anymore,i click on formation, 1 goes up only and lose 2x+#perks
i ussed them for fast strike on CV, but now only 1 can't kill CV
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Keep the drones, put a small perk on em if ya want. But let the bombers have the formations. Like someone else said. "It's 3 Easy kills" Well most of time anyways :p
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The formations were added when the bombsite became complex, in an attempt to maintain the viability of the buff in AH.
From what I heard (I don't fly buffs) the bombsite is back to the simple mode, why not change the formations back too?
Forgot to mention, why the heck do you need a formation when all the hangers at the airfields are ALL lined up and packed in a small area?
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Originally posted by Delirium
The formations were added when the bombsite became complex, in an attempt to maintain the viability of the buff in AH.
From what I heard (I don't fly buffs) the bombsite is back to the simple mode, why not change the formations back too?
Forgot to mention, why the heck do you need a formation when all the hangers at the airfields are ALL lined up and packed in a small area?
Force multiplier. A B-24 with 8x1000 pounders attacking a small airfield needs to use 6 bombs to drop the 3 FH. A formation only needs 1 bomb per plane for the same effect, letting you drop 5 more times.
Look at Lanc's, what would you rather have, 14,000 pounds of explosives, or 42,000 pounds? :)
Also, attacking a lone B-17 from say, 5 o'clock high, puts you in the line of 5 .50 cals (2 on top turret, 2 on rear, 1 waist). Attacking a formation puts 15 .50cals on the same spot. That's why good gunners are so freaking dangerous.
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no matter what... the bombers are gamey.. It wouldn't bother me if I never saw another one in the game.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
no matter what... the bombers are gamey.. It wouldn't bother me if I never saw another one in the game.
lazs
Ridiculous..
I can see arguing for or versus formations, but removing bombers altogether because they are 'gamey'?
I'm pretty sure my Grandfather-in-law didn't think it was gamey.. In 1944 when he was a B-17 squadron commander... When the ME410 with the 40mm nose cannon knocked a big freakin hole in his starboard wing...
But hey, if Laz says their gamey and don't represent the war, and that the war was just a big furball.. Well heck, who are we to argue with him?
Ugh...
Anyhoooo
I think formations should stay because they represent the true balance of bombers to fighters. Lets not forget that bombers would go up by the hundreds, fighters would come up by the dozens.. Not the other way around.
Most WWII bombers were killed by Flak, not by fighters.
And lastly, the escorts were charged with keeping the fighters away from the formations... They didn't fight within the formation. The bombers were expected to take care of anything that got past the screen. And part of that tactic was the bomber box and that is the formation we see in AH.
Anyone who says they should be removed is simply ticked off because he can't get 3 free kills. As it turns out, flying into a group of B17s is SUPPOSED to be dangerous.
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Originally posted by 2stony
If this guy thinks its so easy eggin targets with a formation, try taking one against a CV at low level. The ack is murder, and if there's any fighter cover, survival is almost impossible.
Gee, maybe because low-level buff CV runs aren't supposed to be easy. Anytime I see some suicide Lanc dweeb diving on a CV from his amazing starting alt of 4k, I know it's only a matter of time, because that same dweeb will get 3 other dweebs to do it over, and over, and over, and over.
I got the CV, and only died 14 times! WOOOOOO [insert country here] OWNZ!
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I dont wanna see bombers perked. The rtb success rate of fighters is better than bombers (for me anyways). When I go out in a bomber I make it to target about 1/2 the time, but only rtb after drop about 1/8 the time. Yes I take alot of em with me but would I want to "buy" those rides?
Id hate to think I was spending perk points every flight knowing there was a very good chance Id lose them to a couple of unperked La7s.
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Single bombers wouldn't be perked. Only the formations.
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I think we need to take up a collection for these bomber dweeds as they are called........ so we can put them up in some home and get rid of them...I'm tired of bomber guys wrecking my game......I have even seen these Bomber guys land B17's on CV's rearm and take off again........this nonsence has to stop!!!:
to all you...be happy Life is Short.
PS. I think Blimps Should replace bombers in this game...And yes they should not be formations..and yes give guys like tatertot who are good with a gun a pistol in the basket to defend himself.... or maybe just a sling shot!
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Originally posted by 999000
I think we need to take up a collection for these bomber dweeds as they are called........ so we can put them up in some home and get rid of them...I'm tired of bomber guys wrecking my game......I have even seen these Bomber guys land B17's on CV's rearm and take off again........this nonsence has to stop!!!:
to all you...be happy Life is Short.
PS. I think Blimps Should replace bombers in this game...And yes they should not be formations..and yes give guys like tatertot who are good with a gun a pistol in the basket to defend himself.... or maybe just a sling shot!
Right on :aok but I wouldn't want a pistol, or a slingshot. I want a flock of birds I can hurl into the path of fighters.
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Originally posted by 999000
I think we need to take up a collection for these bomber dweeds as they are called........ so we can put them up in some home and get rid of them...I'm tired of bomber guys wrecking my game......I have even seen these Bomber guys land B17's on CV's rearm and take off again........this nonsence has to stop!!!:
to all you...be happy Life is Short.
PS. I think Blimps Should replace bombers in this game...And yes they should not be formations..and yes give guys like tatertot who are good with a gun a pistol in the basket to defend himself.... or maybe just a sling shot!
i think we should just perk 999000. That would solve the whole issue.
shubie
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Originally posted by ghi
Noo, don't perk formations, let them have , 5-10 drones, my best fun in AH2 is shooting dweebs bombers in 109G10
GHI is dead on target with this... He has killed some of my bombers, but I have nailed him too! :D If I am not flying bombers, I am looking for bombers to kill. Remember this fellas... for every formation you see thats one less LA7 vulching you on takeoff.
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I don't agree with this at all.
Bombers are not that hard to kill, look at my stats for last tour, I've killed my fair share of bombers and haven't been killed by a bomber even once.
And why complain about low level bombers?! They're easier to kill!
I do agree about stopping divebombing lancs,b17s,b24s and b26s. They should only be able to drop bombs from the F6 view (which would cause to plane to go level).
HTC has already stated in another thread that he agrees with spreading out the hangers so I'm sure the airfields will get redisgned soon or at least new maps will have different layouts. Just a matter of time till the new terrain editor comes out.
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
GHI is dead on target with this... He has killed some of my bombers, but I have nailed him too! :D
hehehe, i shoot you down, you shoot me down, soo we both have fun ,that's the most important:)
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I'm with Jpeg on this. Just stop the divebombing bombers. That to me is the only gamey thing about the bombers in AH.
Formations were included as I understand it to make up for the more difficult calibration procedure. I really think that the current calibration is difficult enough to warrant formations. Although it is much easier than before it's not the "put crosshairs on target and punch button for 100% hits" like the original model. In my opinion it's ok to require a little bit of skill to successfully achieve goals in this game.
I think divebombing bombers started as a result of people not willing to learn how to properly calibrate with the model we had just prior to this. I would like to see bombers only dropping from the bombsite. This would solve the divebombing bomber problem.
I don't really have a problem with low level bomber formations. They can be fun to fly (lots of nmes to shoot at) and increase bomb hit probability. So basically you are trading the probability of making it to target with the probability of hitting your target. They are also pretty easy to kill so have at it.
Yes I fly bombers, although the vast majority of my time is spent in fighters. I prefer mid-alt level runs for accuracy and survivability so maybe I am just biased.
I also think that shooting down bombers is actually not very hard as long as you are patient. 95% of the time I get popped by a bomber it's because I am impatient and don't take the time to position myself for a safe and accurate pass on the formation.
Zaphod
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Originally posted by indy007
Force multiplier. A B-24 with 8x1000 pounders attacking a small airfield needs to use 6 bombs to drop the 3 FH. A formation only needs 1 bomb per plane for the same effect, letting you drop 5 more times.
Look at Lanc's, what would you rather have, 14,000 pounds of explosives, or 42,000 pounds? :)
Also, attacking a lone B-17 from say, 5 o'clock high, puts you in the line of 5 .50 cals (2 on top turret, 2 on rear, 1 waist). Attacking a formation puts 15 .50cals on the same spot. That's why good gunners are so freaking dangerous.
Firstly, assuming the bomber has a gunner only 2 sets of guns can be fired at anyone time. 1 set by the pilot the other set by the "freakin dangerous gunner". Usually there isn't a gunner. It's just the pilot out of his seat or bomb site flying LEVEL and STRAIGHT.....what more do you want.
As for killing bombers it's so easy so long as you know how to do it and creeping up on the gunner/s isn't how to do it.:rofl
LYNX.....~SOB~
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Originally posted by LYNX
As for killing bombers it's so easy so long as you know how to do it and creeping up on the gunner/s isn't how to do it.:rofl
LYNX.....~SOB~
Don't tell them that!
I get lots of kills from the gunner seat because people climb up right on my six, with no airspeed. As soon as they close 800 Bang bang boom. and they either pop or ride the long slow spiral to the water.
As far as flying straight and level while shooting.. Well... Maybe the guys who don't have pedals on the floor do that, but I can tell you I'll steer the hell out of my flight and shoot at you as well. I just can't go up or down.
I have a very high rate of success defending my flight... And I have equal success killing bombers from my fighter birds.
If you understand how to attack, then you automatically know how to defend.
The only guys who are likely to get a kill on me in a bomber are the guys who know how to do the attack - fast slashing attacks from high quartering positions. Its hard for any skilled gunner to defend against. Just don't get greedy and settle in astern the formation, because you'll most likely die before the flight does. Unless you're in a CHOG or something like that... Those babies are da chit!
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Oh, sure.. I post so the thread dies.. I see how it is!
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As primarilly a bomber pilot in this game I usually fly at anywhere between 10 to 30K but even I have made runs between 1 and 5K and I see no problem with formations or even low lvl bombers because those things resemble reality but the dive bombing Lancs, 17's, 24's, and 26's just arn't realistic. The JU88's were designed as dive bombers as well as the 87's though rarelly used and even the KI67 was used as an explosives-laden kamikaze plane in the war.
I say stop the unrealistic usage of bombers not what dosn't seem fun for you. .
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the major kurt says that his grandpaw doesn't feel that the the fluffs in AH are gamey compared to everything else so I guess until I get to be at least a colonel I better keep quiet about it.
lazs
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Getting rid of formations would most likely take the bombers out of the game again. Why you ask? Without a formation a single bomber would almost never make it to the target. Why you ask? Bombers are actually easy to shoot down. It takes patients and planning and most of all practice, but it’s actually pretty simple. While I personally haven’t mastered it, I know many players that can take an entire formation by themselves on a regular basis. However, if you are working a bomber group, and a few friendly get involved, and you get greedy, and you abandon your sound bomber attacking tactic's because you are afraid someone is going to steal your kills you been working? You’ll probably die in short order! :D
We seen heavy bomber nearly become extinct in the MA for a long time when HT added the calibration. It wasn’t the calibration alone that caused the bomber pilots to sit it out in the OC drinking the year away. It was the combination of the calibration system, the wind, the ease of being shot down, and the task of keeping your formation intact while turning back to hit the targets missed due to a very touchy calibration system. This all became very NOT FUN for bombers pilots.
HTC found a compromise to get the bomber pilots out of the Officers Club and sobered up by removing one of the calibration elements. It worked excellent! wtg HTC. I think it very appropriate to see waves of bombers in the AH Skies. It gives the game a balanced nostalgic feel.
Lets do an “IF” thingy.
“If” yous 6 guys would stop chasing that “Lgay7”…that “FW-Run-90”…or that “FW Run-O-9” for 25 miles just to gang rape it. And “IF” 4 of you pull off to patrol for incoming bombers .. (More than 7 miles from your own ack)…And “If” you and your gang minded buddies work those pesky bombers as a team. Then we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Hey, here is an idea. I once read about an “Elite” group of pilots that are forming to stop the hoard. “Dedicated to chasing the horde all over the skies of AH. We will force the capturing horde into a furball. Everywhere the horde goes this elite group will follow. We will fly to the base where the horde is forming up for its attack. Once there we will pounce upon the helpless heavy followers of the horde until they decide enough is enough. then it’s off to the next large darbar to find more horde to feast on.” This last part is very unlikely to happen. Wana bet that they just de-ack said field and vulch it till outa ammo…then they will all rtb?
Maybe these “Elitists” can help you with your bomber problem?
Ahh yes…here it is
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138894&referrerid=7566
Originally posted by KurtVW
I think formations should stay because they represent the true balance of bombers to fighters. Lets not forget that bombers would go up by the hundreds, fighters would come up by the dozens.. Not the other way around.
Most WWII bombers were killed by Flak, not by fighters.
And lastly, the escorts were charged with keeping the fighters away from the formations... They didn't fight within the formation. The bombers were expected to take care of anything that got past the screen. And part of that tactic was the bomber box and that is the formation we see in AH.
Very Well said Kurt
Bomber attacking is actually very fun as well as challenging. The bonus is getting 3 kills as opposed to only 1 guy out of the 3 gang rappers getting the kill on a single “runner”.
Oh…. that’s the problem?…the bombers have lead coming out their arse? God forbid we get shot at while trying to gang rape.
Never mind, I thought we were having a rational discussion.
Carry On. :P
PS. I dispise dive bombing heavy bombers. I just thinks it cheezy.
Maybe set a parameter for Speed vs. AOA that would cause bombers to liquefy and poor outa the sky (like the terminator movie) while trying such nonsense.
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Only one problem with all these logical arguments. Back then bombers expected to get home - in AH the people who are abusing the system do not. They want to get in at 500 ft, dump their bombs to take out hangars or carriers, and anything else is gravy.
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Lots of bombers always encourage me to fly 190's :D
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Only one problem with all these logical arguments. Back then bombers expected to get home - in AH the people who are abusing the system do not. They want to get in at 500 ft, dump their bombs to take out hangars or carriers, and anything else is gravy.
And this is also exactly why escorts don't work in AH... In real life, an attacker faced with having to get past an escort might go away, or get engaged with the escort... And since he wants to live, he's going to think about this.
In AH, plenty of fighter pilots are suicidal. They will blow right past the escort in hope of getting the bomber kill before getting killed themselves. The only place in AH where escorts work is in Special events where you only get one life. That changes the math significantly.
Just for the record, in bombers I fly to live. The only time I make suicidal runs is if I'm doing something specific to assist my squad. In those cases I'll admit, the end justifies the means.