Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: frank3 on January 04, 2005, 10:00:31 AM

Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: frank3 on January 04, 2005, 10:00:31 AM
How about this one? Heinkel He-177

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/68_1104853653_he177-2[1].jpg)


Armament: A-5/R2:
- One 7.92mm MG 81J manually aimed in nose
   Ammunition: 2000 rounds
- One 20mm MG 151 manually aimed in forward ventral gondola
   Ammunition: 300 rounds
- Two 13mm MG 131 in remote front dorsal turret
   Ammunition: 750 rounds per gun
- One 13mm MG 131 in electric aft dorsal turret
   Ammunition: 750 rounds
- One 20mm MG 151 cannon in in tail position
   Ammunition: 300 rounds

Bomb Load: A-5/R2:
- Sixteen 110 lb. (50kg) SC 50
- four 551 lb. (250-kg) SC 250
- two 1,102 lb. (500 kg) SC 500
- two LMA III parachute sea mines
- LT 50 torpedos
- Hs 293 of FX 1400 missiles.

Engine: 2 Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1
Thrust: 2,950lb
Note: Each engine comprised of two V12 liquid cooled engines geared to one propeller.

Dimensions:
Span: 31.44m (103 ft. 1¼ in.)
Length: 22m (72 ft. 2 in.)
Height: 6.4m (21 ft.)

Weights: (A-5)
Empty: 37,038lb. (16,800 kg)
Loaded: 68,343lb (31,000kg)

Performance:
Maximum (at 41,000lb.): 295mph (472km/h)
Initial Climb: 853 ft/min (260m/min)
Service Ceiling: 26,500 ft (7080m)
Range with Fritz or Hs 293 missle: 3,107 miles (5000km)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: nirvana on January 04, 2005, 03:18:32 PM
I like it,  perhaps like an A20 light/medium bomber with more defensive capabilities.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: JB73 on January 04, 2005, 03:40:19 PM
the bomb load is less ordinance than the 110
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Karnak on January 04, 2005, 04:31:16 PM
Ju188A-2 would be a much better choice, IMHO.  It was a much more successful design and would fare very well in the MA.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Angus on January 04, 2005, 06:52:51 PM
Both are good.

How about Dorniers though?
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Jester on January 04, 2005, 10:13:19 PM
FW 200 CONDOR
would also carry more ord and still pack a powerful defensive punch.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Karnak on January 04, 2005, 10:25:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jester
FW 200 CONDOR
would also carry more ord and still pack a powerful defensive punch.

The Fw200 was fragile, slow, poorly defended and carried significantly less ordinance than the Ju88A-4.  It would be in all ways inferior to the Ju88A-4.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 07:49:26 AM
The He-177's bomb load info is obviously wrong. Building a 68,343 lbs plane to carry two 500kg bombs is a bit ... dumb.

The He-177 had a maximum internal bombload of 13,200 lbs (6000kg). It usually did not carry any external ord. except for the guided bombs, missiles, mines and torps.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 07:54:47 AM
Also the 2,950 lb "thrust" is in fact 2,950 hp per engine (two).
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 07:57:14 AM
Other contenders: Do-217 and Ju-188/388
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: frank3 on January 05, 2005, 08:03:20 AM
People weren't pleased with the Do-217 those days.
All kinds of performance flaws with it (many of their engine broke down) and the defensive armament wasn't very good.

1 x .50 cal in a top turret
2 x .303 cals on it's sides
1 x .303 cal in the belly

But it did carry RC bombs though :aok
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Angus on January 05, 2005, 08:20:48 AM
Do 217 was the one at the back of my head.
Anyone with specs?
Anyway, the twin 177 was prone to catching fire (engine related) nicnamed "Sarg" by the crews. But didn't they also make a more basic 4 engine version?
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 08:22:15 AM
Are you sure you're referring to the 217? the main production variants (E and K series) had BMW 801 radial engines like the Fw190A.

As for armament, the E series (in service in late 1940), had one MG151/15 in the nose, one 13mm MG131 in a dorsal turret, one 13mm MG131 manually aimed at lower rear, and three 7.98mm MG15's manually aimed from nose and beam windows.

Not stellar, but better than the Ju88 we got now.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 08:30:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Do 217 was the one at the back of my head.
Anyone with specs?
Anyway, the twin 177 was prone to catching fire (engine related) nicnamed "Sarg" by the crews. But didn't they also make a more basic 4 engine version?


Heinkel secretly developed the 277, but it was scrapped in 1944 along with most of Germany's bomber projects.

The He-177A-1's were unreliable. The A-3's and A-5's on the other hand were not. A-5 being the main production model with 826 delivered to the LW. They mostly served on the eastern front, but a few were used to raid Britain in 400 mph shallow dives. Must have been spooky.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Angus on January 05, 2005, 08:41:07 AM
Looks like there are some useable bombers to be added then ;)
I forgot, I have a nice books about LW planes. I'll look up some stuff and post.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 08:56:04 AM
I have "Hitler's Luftwaffe". It does have a few known errors in it, but all in all it's a very good book.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: JB73 on January 05, 2005, 09:20:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The Fw200 was fragile, slow, poorly defended and carried significantly less ordinance than the Ju88A-4.  It would be in all ways inferior to the Ju88A-4.
but it could fly forever.

they actually had a mission set up to bomb out the panama canal from germany. the planed would make it 1 way no problem, but either have to land near there or ditch.

the range on the condor was awsome.

also for killin CV's the torpedos were great. (my guess is they could be dropped from alt with the condor, as it normally flew above the anti aircraft guns when on patrol looking for boats)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Tails on January 05, 2005, 02:13:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB73
also for killin CV's the torpedos were great. (my guess is they could be dropped from alt with the condor, as it normally flew above the anti aircraft guns when on patrol looking for boats)


If they dropped from alt, my guess would be parachute retarded torpedos? Be pretty interesting if they could be shot down before splashdown.
Title: I'm all for
Post by: rshubert on January 05, 2005, 04:02:55 PM
adding all sorts of planes to the game, but I really think we should add an EARLY war bomber or two to all sides before we add any more late-war stuff.  He111, or DO17, and/or a Betty and/or a Jill...

They are desperately needed for scenarios, squad ops, and snapshots.

But yeah, let's get an He177, too!
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GRUNHERZ on January 05, 2005, 05:46:26 PM
The He177A5 or Ju188 really shoud be added to the game.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Angus on January 05, 2005, 06:44:25 PM
What I have is "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe"
edited by David Donald.


Any good?

At least very good illustrations etc.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GRUNHERZ on January 05, 2005, 06:57:58 PM
Or how about the Ju288, a 400+ mph bomber with some 7,000lbs of ordenance. :)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 08:46:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Or how about the Ju288, a 400+ mph bomber with some 7,000lbs of ordenance. :)


That would be great except only 22 pre-production planes were made before the big bomber-cancellations of 1944. Most of those 22 Ju288's crashed in testing, and only a handful were flown into battle in 1944.



Quote
Originally posted by Angus
What I have is "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe"
edited by David Donald.


Any good?

At least very good illustrations etc.


I don't know that book. Illustrated aircraft encyclopaedia only?

"Hitler's Luftwaffe - A pictorial history and technical encyclopaedia of Hitler's air power in World War II" by Tony Wood and Bill Gunston (edited by Philip de Ste. Croix) and published by Salamander Books Ltd in 1978.

It's comprehensive, but not very detailed. About half of its 250 pages are dedicated to the history of the Luftwaffe, from its conception to its demise, including all its major campaigns. The second half is an illustrated encyclopaedia of all aircraft fielded by the Luftwaffe, and also the designs that didn't make it into service.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GRUNHERZ on January 05, 2005, 09:24:11 PM
I know. :)

(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju288-1.jpg)

But damn was it cool looking. Loadout of B17, speed like a fighter, and a whole bunch of defensive turrets even with some 20mm cannon.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 05, 2005, 09:30:06 PM
Oh yes, it would be awesome to have it. :)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: frank3 on January 06, 2005, 08:03:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
The twin 177 was prone to catching fire (engine related) nicnamed "Sarg" by the crews.
But didn't they also make a more basic 4 engine version?


You're right about the fireproblems, it was a major problem and therefor Goring or someone forbid to make anymore of them (Heinkel kept building them though)

The 177 I showed already has 4 engines.



Quote
Engine: 2 Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1
Thrust: 2,950lb
Note: Each engine comprised of two V12 liquid cooled engines geared to one propeller.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: frank3 on January 06, 2005, 08:06:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JB73
but it could fly forever.

they actually had a mission set up to bomb out the panama canal from germany. the planed would make it 1 way no problem, but either have to land near there or ditch.


As you said, it's range was awsome, but I doubt it's more or less then then B-17's etc.
Don't forget the B-17's got flown from America to England ;)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 06, 2005, 08:56:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by frank3
You're right about the fireproblems, it was a major problem and therefor Goring or someone forbid to make anymore of them (Heinkel kept building them though)

The 177 I showed already has 4 engines.


You are mistaken. Göring forbade Heinkel from continuing to nag him about permission to make a four-engined version. The He-177 is a two-engined aircraft. The DB-610 engine is made up of two iV-12 engine blocks, but it is still one engine by definition.

The He-277 Heinkel secretly developed had four engines driving four propellers.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Angus on January 06, 2005, 10:28:08 AM
Hey Scholzie, ISBN 1 874023 56 5
(Mine is autographed by Rall :D )
The planelist is over 70.
It looks pretty good and has lots of photos & drawings.
I can look up some numbers for you if you like, to test it, just gimme something to look for.

Then I have another in German, more about the LW though.

Die Deutche Luftwaffe im 2. Weltkrieg. Daten, Fakten, Kommentare.
ISBN 3-8112-1907-3

Best of Luck

Angus
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: MiloMorai on January 06, 2005, 10:45:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by frank3
As you said, it's range was awsome, but I doubt it's more or less then then B-17's etc.
Don't forget the B-17's got flown from America to England ;)


The Fw200C-3 had a range of 4500km(2800mi) and 14.5 hrs flight time. For the C-6 it was 5500km(3400mi) and 17.0hrs flight time. For the F it was 6900km(4300mi) and 23.0 hrs flight time.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Karnak on January 06, 2005, 12:17:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
The Fw200C-3 had a range of 4500km(2800mi) and 14.5 hrs flight time. For the C-6 it was 5500km(3400mi) and 17.0hrs flight time. For the F it was 6900km(4300mi) and 23.0 hrs flight time.

So less than the H8K2 "Emily". ;)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GRUNHERZ on January 06, 2005, 05:23:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
You are mistaken. Göring forbade Heinkel from continuing to nag him about permission to make a four-engined version. The He-177 is a two-engined aircraft. The DB-610 engine is made up of two iV-12 engine blocks, but it is still one engine by definition.

The He-277 Heinkel secretly developed had four engines driving four propellers.


LOL going by its complexity the DB610 is 2.5, maybe 3 engines....  

They should have just made a straight 4 engined bomber using Jumo 211 or DB603s.  If they wanted less drag maybe they could have used two Dornier tandem installations, with one engine pullinbg and the other pushing like Do335..
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Angus on January 08, 2005, 03:50:33 PM
Should-have, could-have.

The He 177 is a bit comparible with the Avro Manchester if you know what I mean. 2 enormous double-engines providing the power of 4.
Both flew and that operationally. But neither would fly on one engine, and failiures were common.
So, if we could pick a toplist of German bombers into AH, what would it be?
I guess HTC would go with something manufactured in some numbers, and perhaps something we don't have..?
So, as Karnak pointed out, the Ju 188 is quite potential, and for the graphics side, maybe not the biggest work. (Wings and fuselage similar to Ju 88?)
The He 111 would be my favourite choice. Well, Ju88 can do everything better, but yet, what a beautiful plane, and the ordnance is yet adequate (8x500kg?)
Anyway, just decided to insert this text instead of a forbidden "punt", - the subjet is just too good to be forgotten :)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: gear on January 08, 2005, 04:06:06 PM
Getting any new german planes is like this.(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/banghead.gif)


He 177 served as a five/six-seat heavy bomber from 1942 to 1945. The Greif (Griffin) was the only long-range heavy bomber built by the Luftwaffe in World War II in significant numbers. It was, to the good fortune of the Allies, one of the most trouble-plagued and accident-prone aircraft in existence, and the German crews and ground staff did not like it either. The plane was desgined to meet a misguided and impossible goal of 1938 that not only demanded long range with heavy bomb load and a speed of 536km/h but also required the big bomber to be able to divebomb. This and many other difficulties caused great delays and added to the weight. The designers wanted to use neat remotely controlled guns but this was a big problem and eventually it had to be discarded in favor of the ordinary turrets or hand-aimed guns. Worse yet, it was decided to use four engines and pack them in two coupled pairs to reduce drag, so that the He 177 looked like a twin-engined aircraft. Although great efforts were made by Daimler-Benz to make the 2,950hp DB 610A twinned units work properly, they created numerous problems and caught fire so often that - like an aircraft of World War I - the big Heinkel was dubbed "the flaming coffin." In total more than 1,000 of many versions were built. Armed with various combinations of 20mm cannon, 13mm heavy machine guns and rifle-caliber guns, the He 177 carried up to 6,011kg of bombs or missiles, and in some types even went into action at "nought feet" as tank-busters carrying huge 50 or 75mm caliber cannons. Late in the war some new versions, like the He 274 built in France and He 277 in Austria, had four separate engines, but they were too late to have any significant influence in the course of the war.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: gear on January 08, 2005, 04:16:13 PM
ju488(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Tomcat.gif)

(http://www.luft46.com/junkers/488-1.gif)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: gear on January 08, 2005, 04:19:10 PM
ju390

(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju390.jpg)
Performance:
Maximum Speed:
    Clean: 314 mph (505 kph)
    With Max. Eternal Weapons: 267 mph (430 kph)
Initial Climb: N/A
Service Ceiling (Typical): N/A
Range in Recce configuration:
    6,027 miles (9700 km)
Endurance in Recce configuration: 32 Hours

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
Eight 20mm MG 151.
Eight 13mm MG 131.

Payload:
Transport (V1): 22,046 lb. (10,000 kg)
Bomber (V3): 3,968 lb. (1800 kg)

Avionics:
FuG 200 Hohentwiel Radar.
Engine:
Model: BMW 801E
Type: 18-Cylinder two-row radial
Number: Six       Horsepower: 1,970 hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 165 ft. 1 in. (50.30m)
Length: 112 ft. 2.5 in. (34.20m)
Height: 22 ft. 7 in. (6.89m)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: SELECTOR on January 08, 2005, 04:29:33 PM
any new planes should have a few of the note worthy quirks the planes had.. i for one would welcome the he177 but i would like its engines to spontaniously burst into flames about every 3rd mission..
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: gear on January 08, 2005, 04:33:08 PM
(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/ups/kamikaze/smilie_mush.gif)


Quote
Originally posted by Jester
FW 200 CONDOR
would also carry more ord and still pack a powerful defensive punch.

 Fw 200C-4/U2
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1076.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1083.jpg)
Armament:
Forward Dorsal Turret:
One 15mm MG 151/15, One 20mm MG 151/20 Or One 7.92mm MG 15 with 1,000 rnds mounted in hydralically operated FW 19 turret
Ventral Gondola:
One 20mm MG 151/20 with 500 rnds. manually aimed at front
One 7.92mm MG 15 with 1,000 rnds. manually aimed at rear

Beam:
Two 7.92mm MG 15 Or Two 13mm MG 131 with 300 rnds.

Aft Dorsal Position:
One 13mm MG 131 with 500 rnds.

Bomb Load:
4,626 lbs. (2100kg) carried in ventral gondola and beneath wings

Missle Load: (C-6 to C-8 models)
Two Hs 293 Anit-Ship Missles under outboard nacells
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Karnak on January 08, 2005, 04:36:37 PM
My preference for the next German bomber would go:

1) Ju188A-2
2) He177A-5
3) Do217E-2


Don't get too focused on the words "Heavy" and "Medium".  Look at the actual capabilities of each aircraft.  Doing that you'll see that, if anything, the Ju188A-2 would be a better MA bomber than the B-17G.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: gear on January 08, 2005, 04:47:44 PM
(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/blackeye/snipersmilie.gif)do 217

(http://users.belgacom.net/airimg1/avion1/12908.jpe)
Crew: 4
Span: 19.00 meters
Length: 17.30 meters
Height: 5.00 meters
Wing surface: 57.00 sq m.
Wing load: 263 kg/sq m
Weight empty: 8 850 kg
Weight loaded: 15 000 kg


Propulsion
Engine: 2 x BMW 801 A
Power (total): 3 160 HP
Specific power: 211 HP / ton
Maximum speed: 515 kph
Service ceiling: 7 500 meters
Range: 2 100 km
 Armament
1 MG 151 machine gun
2 MG 131 machine guns
3 MG 15 machine guns
4 000 kg of bombs
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Glasses on January 16, 2005, 11:29:20 PM
I want a Ju188 with Shrage  mUzik
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Flyboy on January 17, 2005, 04:08:10 AM
if we want a german "heavy" then the Do217 is the way to go IMO

4000Kgs of bombs...
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Angus on January 17, 2005, 12:15:39 PM
Looking better at the Ju188, it also looks sort of ---funny.

Would be a very cool and quite useable addition IMHO
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Furball on January 17, 2005, 12:43:49 PM
We NEED He-111 for BoB scenario's.   That should be before any other german bomber.

And after the He111 we need a ruskie bomber, like Pe-2 or Tu-2 :)

Then you can look into adding the "l33t!" kraut bombers for the MA :)

all in my opinion of course
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Glasses on January 18, 2005, 04:49:44 PM
Yeh I recon  Adding both a Ruskie buff and a  Newer German Buff too wouldn't be bad
 but alas Russies need a buffer.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Scrap on January 20, 2005, 04:22:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
My preference for the next German bomber would go:

1) Ju188A-2
2) He177A-5
3) Do217E-2


Don't get too focused on the words "Heavy" and "Medium".  Look at the actual capabilities of each aircraft.  Doing that you'll see that, if anything, the Ju188A-2 would be a better MA bomber than the B-17G.


(http://217.215.27.122/aircrafts/ju188_pic.gif)


Yesssssssssssssssssss!

It's a real shame our opinion has fallen on deaf ears for so long Karnak.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: HoHun on January 20, 2005, 04:37:06 PM
Hi Karnak,

>Look at the actual capabilities of each aircraft.  Doing that you'll see that, if anything, the Ju188A-2 would be a better MA bomber than the B-17G.

Hm, why do you think so? It's not that I disagree, I'm just interested in the reasons for your opinion :-)

(In my opinion, a pure bomber He 177 would be a good choice. I haven't considered alternatives, though.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Karnak on January 20, 2005, 06:59:30 PM
Hohun,

The Ju188A-2 has a similar payload to the B-17G (actually a bit more), a 20mm MG151/20 in a dorsal turret with a 360° traverse (unlike the Ki-67's 180° traverse) and a significantly higher top speed, 40-50mph faster.  It will likely climb and handle a lot better too, being a twin engined aircraft.  The Ju88A-4 in AH is a VERY tough aircraft and I see no reason why that wouldn't extend to the Ju188A-2 as well.

The B-17G would have better defensive fire, particularly from below and from the direct rear and be a bit tougher.

The two would be pretty close, but overall I'd say the Ju188A-2 would be a little better in AH.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Pongo on January 20, 2005, 07:31:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I know. :)

(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju288-1.jpg)

But damn was it cool looking. Loadout of B17, speed like a fighter, and a whole bunch of defensive turrets even with some 20mm cannon.


puntaroony
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: AVRO1 on January 22, 2005, 08:46:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
(http://ttp://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju288-1.jpg)


Ah Yes the Bomber B Project!

Unfortunatly the Germans had trouble developping the engines that they designed for em.

DB 604C 2500 HP 24-cylinder injection X-engine

Junkers Jumo 222 2500 HP 24-cylinders liquid-cooled 4 row radial
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: HoHun on January 23, 2005, 06:57:30 PM
Hi Karnak,

>The Ju188A-2 has a similar payload to the B-17G (actually a bit more)

Hm,  are you sure? It seems to have been limited to a take-off weight of 14500 kg, which doesn't appear that generous.

The loadout options were actually the same as for the Ju 88A-4:

Forward bomb bay: 18 x 50 kg
Rear bomb bay: 10 x 50 kg
Inboard bomb rack: up to 1800 kg
Outboard bomb rack: up to 500 kg
Outer wing bomb rack: up to 500 kg

I don't know if the outer wing racks were ever used on the Ju 88 or the Ju 188, though. I'd think that the bomb bays usually were used for fuel tanks, too, but I'm not sure on that either.

>The B-17G would have better defensive fire, particularly from below and from the direct rear and be a bit tougher.

Do you know whether the series production Ju 188 had the rear gunner position? It seems he was to be replaced with a remotely controlled gun that never came up.

>The two would be pretty close, but overall I'd say the Ju188A-2 would be a little better in AH.

Do you have any performance figures? With the bombs carried externally, I'd think that the Ju 188 would probably lose a lot of performance, and without turbo-superchargers, its altitude capability appears limited anyway.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Karnak on January 23, 2005, 11:46:44 PM
In AH the Ju88A-4 has a total payload that is heavier than the B-17G's, 3,000kg vs 6,000lbs.

At high altitude you're certainly right, but the fact is that most usage in AH is at low and medium altitudes.  The external bombs would slow it some, but with a 50+mph advantage on the B-17G when both are clean I doubt it would be enough to make the B-17G faster.

As I understand it, the Ju188A-2 had one MG131 13mm gun or twin MG81 7.92mm guns in the rear ventral gondalla.  I've not read anything about remote guns on it.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: bunch on January 24, 2005, 01:14:25 AM
I have a book by a pilot who lead a group   of (& flew) Ju88a-4s in combat in Russia, who says that this largest combat load he ever carried was 2250kg & that amount was for "experten" only & normal pilots could handle 1750kg max....On a related topic, anyone ever heard of an instance of a B-17 using it's external bomb racks for a combat mission?
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: MiloMorai on January 24, 2005, 01:42:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
On a related topic, anyone ever heard of an instance of a B-17 using it's external bomb racks for a combat mission?


When they carried the Disney bomb.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 24, 2005, 01:51:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
On a related topic, anyone ever heard of an instance of a B-17 using it's external bomb racks for a combat mission?


Why would you want to? The B-17 has plenty of bomb-bay space, even for overloads.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: bunch on January 24, 2005, 04:20:00 AM
Was just wondering, because the authoratative M.A.D. (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/index.html)  says the B-17 could carry 9453kg, but normal combat loads were more like 6000lbs (about 2700kg) & was wondering  why the discrepancy.  I assumed it was bay size, but maybe it was 9453kg, but not with full gas tanks.....?
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: MiloMorai on January 24, 2005, 05:13:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Why would you want to? The B-17 has plenty of bomb-bay space, even for overloads.


:rolleyes:

The B-17G could carry, internally:

26 X 100 lb (2600lb/1180kg)

or

16 X 300 lb (4800lb/2177kg)

or

12 X 500 lb (6000lb/2721jg)

or

2 X 2,000 lb (4000lb/1814kg)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 24, 2005, 06:00:59 AM
Seems like I was wrong Bunch.

"Other important changes included self-sealing oil tanks, heavier landing gear to handle the increased weight, and external bomb racks under the inner wings. The B-17's limited bomb capacity had been the subject of much legitimate criticism, and the bomb racks were intended to correct that error by increasing the bomb load from the typical 1.8 tonnes (4,000 pounds) to up to 4.35 tonnes (9,600 pounds). Later modifications of the external bomb rack scheme increased the maximum bombload to 9.4 tonnes (20,800 pounds), but the external racks proved an exercise in futility. They were rarely used except for special missions, as external loads imposed significant performance penalties."

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avb172.html
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: HoHun on January 24, 2005, 06:06:39 PM
Reply in Progress - Stay Tuned!
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: HoHun on January 24, 2005, 06:18:22 PM
Hi Scholz,

The B-17 bomb bay had two symmetrical halves. Each had shackles for:

12 x 0100 lbs
08 x 0300 lbs
06 x 0500 lbs
03 x 1000 lbs
04 x 1600 lbs (might be only 3 would fit)
01 x 2000 lbs (special shackles required)

Apparently, bombs could be mixed within one bay as space permitted, which is hard to estimate without trying it out.

The 2000 lbs bomb required special shackles which had to be removed before dropping bombs loaded above it, requiring some maintenance work in the bomb bay over the target. (It was situated in the lower third of the bomb bay.)

Two external hard points were suited for:

1 x 1000 lbs
1 x 1600 lbs
1 x 2000 lbs
1 x 4000 lbs

One example bomb load load has 8800 lbs, with 2 x 2000 lbs externally, 2 x 2000 lbs internally and 8 x 100 lbs above the big bombs internally.

The 9600 lbs mentioned in your quote might allude to 2 x 3 x 1600 lbs as maximum load out.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Rasker on January 25, 2005, 04:05:04 AM
According to the book "The Mighty Eighth", some B24's were also capable of mounting 1 4000 pounder or smallerbomb under each wing.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: bunch on January 25, 2005, 05:14:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Seems like I was wrong Bunch....


You're that rarest of types, one who would admit it...all around a good egg, no doubt
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Herr Milde on January 28, 2005, 01:06:54 AM
Typical bomb load for JU188A-2 comprised 20 154-lb, six 551-lb, and four 1,102-lb or two 2,205-lb bombs.

per William Green's "The Warplanes of the Third Reich"

I like this plane!
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Herr Milde on January 28, 2005, 01:35:01 AM
Defensive armament of JU188A-2 comprised one 20-mm MG 151 cannon in fuselage nose, one 20-mm MG 151 cannon in power-operated dorsal turret, one 13-mm MG 131 machine gun firing aft above fuselage (located just fore and above the dorsal turret), and one 7.9-mm MG 81z twin-machine gun firing aft below fuselage.

The remotely operated tail barbette was mounted experimentally on A-series airframes but was shelved due to complexity and poor reliability.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: Herr Milde on January 28, 2005, 01:47:50 AM
JU188A-2 performance: maximum speed, 264 mph at sea level, 323 mph at 19,685 ft; range: 1,490 mls (with 3,307-lb bomb load).
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 28, 2005, 04:25:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
You're that rarest of types, one who would admit it...all around a good egg, no doubt


Thanks :)
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: GScholz on January 28, 2005, 05:11:44 AM
I think it would be more correct to say that the JU88/188 had a maximum payload with external racks similar to the typical payload of the B-17 without external racks.

However, not knowing how the racks were implemented on the B-17, I get the impression that the 4x500kg external bombs on the 88/188 were better integrated. From the pictures I've seen it looks like the four bombs are semi-recessed into a pair of conformal "pods" under the wings of the 188, which would minimize the drag penalty of carrying them externally.
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: MiloMorai on January 28, 2005, 05:32:04 AM
To illustate how bomb/fuel load effected range, here is some data I came across on the Ju 88A.

2400kg bombload, 1221kg fuel, 1260km range, 11,900kg flying weight

1500kg bombload, 2106kg fuel, 2340km range, 12,000kg flying weight

1000kg bombload, 2609kg fuel, 2900km range, 12,100kg flying weight

500kg bombload, 3263kg fuel, 3680km range, 112,300kg flying weight
Title: how bout
Post by: afool on January 28, 2005, 07:03:55 AM
Henschel Hs123 (nice bi-plane)
~or~
Henschel Hs129 with the 40mm gun

afool
Title: For those who want a German bomber...
Post by: HoHun on January 29, 2005, 03:16:44 PM
Hi again,

The He 177 had three bomb bay segments each divided into two symmetrical halves.

The aft bomb bay segment was a bit longer than the two fore segments.

Per segment and half it was possible to load:

8 x 0050 kg (on a special carrier)*
2 x 0250 kg
1 x 0500 kg
1 x 1000 kg (PC 1000)
1 x LMA III

* If carried in fore segment, protuded into mid segment enough to preclude carrying another rack of the same type there. For an exclusively 50 kg bomb loadout, the fore carrier probably could only be loaded with 4 x 50 kg each, for a total of 40 x 50 kg.

If the mid segment was blocked, the following loads could be carried in the fore and aft segments (per half):

1 x 1000 kg (SC 1000)
1 x 1400 kg
1 x 1700 kg
1 x 1800 kg (aft segment only)
1 x LMB III

It seems that for long-range operations, the fore segment of the bomb bay was turned into a fuel tank. That would of course reduce the armament options of the He 177 somewhat.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)