Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kev367th on January 04, 2005, 10:03:42 AM
-
Any chance of the Spit V with 4x20mm Hispanos, 'C' wing option.
Pretty common loadout.
They could take Hispano Mk1 or Mk2.
Spit 9 also used them, but was very rare, the 2x50 and 2x20 we have we was much more common.
-
Thats all we need. Levi, Slap and a couple of others with 4 Hispanos running around in the MA :mad:
Perk the V
(edit)
No wait. Perk them:D
-
Is the "C" wing the clipped wing ?
4x20mm would be cool ... trying to get those last 2 or so kills with just 303s is a lot of fun tho.
Thats when you really need to get up close and personal and maintain it while you try to concentrate the 303 stream on just one component ... thats the challenge with the 303s.
-
Clipped wings appeared on c and e wings.
Usually the plane would have a low alt Merlin and be designated with LF, eg LFVIII.
A clipped wing Spit LFVIII in here would be a monster!!!!
Hi alt had the hi alt merlin and the pointy wing tips. Prefixed with HF.
-
I'd be all for a clipped wing Spit, not really for one with 4 Hizookas though. If you want a good turner with 4 Hizookas, there is always the Hurri-2C. If you want a fast plane with 4 Hizookas, there is the Tiffie.
I think if you want the best blend of the two, you outta give up 2 of the Hizookas, probably just me though.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
I think if you want the best blend of the two, you outta give up 2 of the Hizookas, probably just me though.
Not just you. I'm a Spitfire fan and I'd not want to see a quad Hispano Spitfire in AH unless it were perked significantly.
Quad Hispano Spit's were not common, but we here all know that if one were added into AH as a free aircraft it'd be the most common Spit by far. I just don't think it's right when historically rare versions of important aircraft vastly outnumber the historically common versions. See: F4U-1D and F4U-1C (pre-perk) for reference.
Kev367th,
Note that it was the engine that deterimed if it was an HF, F or LF. Many HFs did not have extended wingtips and many LFs did not have clipped wings. Heck, there might even have been an occasional HF with clipped wings, I seem to recall hints of it.
-
Yea, I agree with Karnak, pretty much how I feel about it, he just said it better.
On a side note, I really do think we need a faster Spit for the Ma. A clipped wing Spit IX LF would do nicely. On the other hand, our Spit 14 would do nicely too, were it unperked.
-
cc Karnak, that why I mentioned the HF/LF designation.
Quad 20mm Spit 5's were fairly common, it was the Spit 9 they were rare on, something about the Spit 9 'e' wing gave heating problems.
Urchin - what we need is the clipped wing LFVIII, we already have the airframe, Spit 14 we have used Spit 8 airframe.
Don't think a 4 cannon Spit 5 would become overly used, it just doesn't have the speed to catch most planes in the MA. Its not as if the 4 cannon Spit 5 never existed, just asking for a another option for loadout.
Bad enough it doesn't even have drop tanks, which the Spit 5 did, well slipper tanks.
Dunno, we have a Spit 5 with only 1/2 the options we should have, a bastardised Spit 9, and a Spit 14 that just isn't worth it.
Spit14 perks is a joke, just a way to stop people using it. No way is it worth just under a Tempest when LA7/P51 avail unperked.
-
I think our Spit14 should be perked about the same as a CHog. We could have a quad Hispano Mk22 to replace it as an "expensive bird." Perk that one right up with the Tempest.
-
Can i use the 303 ammo boxes for extra hispano ammo rounds?
I mean im fine flying with 2 hispanos... but id like more ammo instead of the brownings.
-
In the subsequent Mk. V series a compromise between performance and firepower was reached. In these Spitfires, (which began rolling off the assembly line in March of 1941) two types of wings were adopted. A standard one, identified by the prefix F; and a shorter one that was clipped at the end (prefix LF) and was suited to flying a low altitudes. Following this were different armament variations in the Mk. VA (eight machine guns), the Mk. VB (four machine guns and two 20mm cannons), to the Mk. VC (four 20mm cannons). The Mk. VC was fitted with a universal wing capable of carrying all previous armament configurations. As for powerplants, Merlin 45 and 50 were used generating 1,440 hp and 1,490 hp respectively. Production numbers of the Mk. V were enormous with 94 Mk. VA's, 3,923 Mk. VB's, and 2,447 Mk. VC's. In addition 229 Mk. IV versions were produced for photoreconnaissance.
As you can see there was a significant amount of the VCs made. No way to tell exactly how many were fitted with the quad 20mms, but I would presume a significant amount were.
Too bad the hanger is not setup to perk gun packages instead of just the plane.
-
Good sugestion slap. Perk load outs.
-
Slapshot,
A lot of the VCs had two of their cannon removed by ground crews once they were in service.
Really, the quad cannon Spits (and even six cannon planned Spits) were in anticipation on continuing BoB type anti-bomber activity. In the actual event that did not materialize and two cannon provided more than adequate firepower for the tasks the Spitfire was to be used for.
Now in AH the Spitfire is suddenly being thrown at big bombers and more firepower is wanted again so the quad cannon request makes sense in this context. I just don't think it should be uncontroled. Slapshot's idea would work fine as would perking an entire airframe.
-
UBB Error
-
Could the slipper tanks on the Spit V even be dropped in flight? I thought they were put on for adding ferry range, not extending combat range.
-
I say NO to the quad cannon spit Vs.
I wont be able to steal any kills from Slapy
-
Good sugestion slap. Perk load outs.
Indeed!
This way we can have almost unlimited number of sub-variants of certain planes which had almost same performance, but different loadout/engine/etc etc.
For instance, Instead of modelling in a separate versions of Bf109G-6s, we could have the 'stock' G-6, and corresponding loadout options.. like, spending 2 perk points for equipping a DB605AS engine - which will give us a bit rare, but 1944 standard high-alt Bf109G-6. Spend about 2 perks for a MW50 system with the stock engine, and it becomes a Bf109G-14.
Add the 2 point AS engine with the 2 point MW50 and it becomes a rare but talented, 4 perk point Bf109G-14/ASM!
(ofcourse, in this case, our pseudo-K-4 Bf109G-10 still outperforms the Bf109G-14/AS, so some revision of perk prices might be needed)
-
Didnt they have some pretty severe problems with the wing structure of the Spitfire handling the recoil from 4 cannon?
-
Only probs they had were heating on Spit 9's with 'e' wings. Thats why they weren't used in the quad combination really.
Spit 5's suffered no such probs.
Dunno about perking them though. Would make the perk system even more upside down than it already is.
Why pay say 5 perks for a quad cannon armed Spit 5 when Tiffys are available. Whole idea was to try and increase plane usage not lessen it.
Perking it wouldn't work till the WHOLE perk system is given a much needed overhaul.
Tempest/Spit14 is a classic example for a few extra perks you get the Tempest, much more capable aircraft. Yet Ponys and Lalas go unperked.
Anyway wasn't going to get onto the perk system.
Wouldn't agree with a quad Spit 9, but see no reason why we can't have a quad Spit 5.
-
A four cannon Spit V would unbalance the arena. No doubt about it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Originally posted by Kev367th
Dunno about perking them though. Would make the perk system even more upside down than it already is.
Why pay say 5 perks for a quad cannon armed Spit 5 when Tiffys are available.
:rolleyes: Because Tiffys (or any other plane) cannot make a 180 climing turn within a 20 feet rad. and excelerate at the same time. :rofl
-
I would love to see this in the MA. Perk it like the C-Hog and I can at this time fly 700-800 of em in succession:lol
It would possibly unbalance the MA tho. Must agree with Levi on that one.:(
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
A four cannon Spit V would unbalance the arena. No doubt about it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Like it's balanced now?
Like majority of planes now are late war.
Like most are P51,La7,190D9 etc.
You call it balanced as it stands?
Think you have to agree that the MA is much more late war than AH1 ever was.
A lot of the early war stuff have become 'hanger queens'.
Just thinking giving a quad Spit and options on other early war planes may increase their use.
Only difference is it gives them a better chance of a kill on 'snapshot'.
Still don't think you'd see hoards of Spit 5's roaming around.
-
Originally posted by Kev367th
Like it's balanced now?
Like majority of planes now are late war.
Like most are P51,La7,190D9 etc.
You call it balanced as it stands?
hehehehe..................may be Levi having a 4 cannon spit V would unbalance it. Pretty danged unbalanced now if you fly near him. HE gets the kills....and you get to return with all your ammo.:lol
-
i like what kweasa said about perking certain load outs, wouldnt mind seeing the p38 with wing mounted canons, ma is so gamey anyway i dont think it would change the game play too much. would put more role play into it, and give some value to perks.
-
Originally posted by Kev367th
You call it balanced as it stands?
It goes a little something like this. If you add a four cannon Spit V, you can kiss goodbye to pretty much every N1K2, Zeke, Spit IX, or Hurricane IIC, as they would essentially become obsolete. It would become pretty much the primary and only base defense and base suppression weapon, capable of turning well and diving to excellent (though unsustainable) speeds.
The Spit V is not a great plane, but it is a good one that is well-balanced. If you add four 20mm Hispanos to it, you turn it into the supreme dogfighting plane in the game by a large margin. You'll see some of the fast planes you mentioned still around, but just about everything else will be a Spit V.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
how much would all those hispanos affect the performance?
-
Originally posted by eilif
how much would all those hispanos affect the performance?
Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment
Boscombe Down
8 March 1942
Spitfire Mk. Vc AA.873 (Merlin 45)
Brief Performance and Handling Trials with 4 - 20 m/m guns fitted.
SUMMARY
Results of tests.
.......(i) The maximum rate of climb is 2,900 feet/minute at 13,400 feet. The time to 20,000 feet is 7.4 minutes, and the estimated service ceiling is 36,400 feet.
.......(ii) The top speed is 374 m.p.h. at 19,000 feet.
.......(iii) There is no noticeable difference between the handling characteristics of this aeroplane and other Spitfire V types.
-
Levi - Thought a while about your last post.
NIK2 - Don't think it would change the amount of Nik's, basically same armament but little faster (lot faster in a dive, plus carries DT's).
Zeke - Very rarely see one apart from off a CV, so no real difference there.
Spit 9 - OK I'll agree, but there will still be a lot who prefer the extra MPH, especially for base defence. Remember also the 9 has DT's the 5 doesn't.
Hurri 2c - This is the one that may well suffer, might all depend on number of rounds.
The fast brigade LA7 etc - They won't change. May make them more wary of getting tagged in a lag roll though.
Looking forward to your thoughts, nice to get an intelligent discussion.
-
The main difference I see, and this is speculation.
You've got 2 groups of planes. Turners and runners.
The Spit 9 and Niki are the fastest of the turners. The Spit 5 isn't to much slower, and turns significantly better than both. This is the main reason why the Spit 5 (& Seafire) have had such a surge in use in the past 6 months or so.
What attributes do you look for in a fighter?
Most people look for something like the following -
Good acceleration (the quicker the better)
Good firepower (obviously, the more the better)
Good turning
OR
High top speed
(or both, in the La7)
If you are already in a slow turner, you may as well max out your "turning ability" vis a vis the other turners, since you aren't going to out run the runners no matter which turner you fly.
In the case of a "tie break" in performance, firepower is usually the deciding factor.
So if we added 2 more Hizookas to the Spit 5, here is what your average MA player would see.
Spit 9 vs Spit 5.
Turning - advantage Spit 5.
Acceleration - very small advantage Spit 9.
Firepower - advantage Spit 5.
Result, take off in a Spit 5.
Niki vs Spit 5
Turning - Spit 5
Acceleration - Not completely sure, probably very similar
Firepower - Spit 5.
Whats a Niki? (Granted, this would jive with pre-game knowledge)
Hurricane vs Spit 5
Turning - Hurricane (though not by much, in my opinion)
Acceleration - Spit 5
Firepower - identical (odds are the Spit would have more ammo)
I actually think the Hurricane would see a lot more use than the Spit 9 and Niki if the Spit 5 was upgunned, simply because it represents an even more extreme option for maxxing out turn performance at the expense of well, everything else.
The Zeke doesn't see any use simply because the added turn performance is counterbalanced by the poor high speed handling, and weak firepower (relative to Hizookas anyway)
-
Go ahead and do it. A SpitV with quad cannons would have an eny of like what, 1? lol
-
if the spitfire V was a U.S. plane, it would not only be able to have the 4 20mm as an option... but it could carry 10 rockets and 2k bombs too ;)
-
I would much prefer a Spit LF IX.;) :)
I tested the spit V and IX last nite as i was having trouble running them down.
On the deck-
Spit V 316 mph
Spit IX 319 mph
5k-
Spit V 336
Spit IX 340
No wonder i was having problems, it seems the spit V has no trouble staying with a spit IX. I think it's safe to say the spit V is equally as fast as the spit IX below 5k. i'll see how they compare at 10k later.
Urchin i'm pretty sure the V has better acceleration than the IX. It has the same power and is 800 pounds lighter.
The spit IX has more disadvantages than advantages for fighting in the MA against the V.
-
Well ok here's what i got for 10k-
Spit IX 362 mph
Spit V 355 mph
Seems the spit IX is starting to gain a distinct speed advantage, though it is only 7mph at this point.
Please model a LF IX HT, pretty please. :)
-
Originally posted by thrila
Well ok here's what i got for 10k-
Please model a LF IX HT, pretty please. :)
With the C wing and 4x20 mm cannons
-
I've been calling for certain loadouts to be perked for a while now.
It would bring in all those variants on planes.
Especially the Ju87 with those big guns.
-
Late to the party but think we should clear up a few things.
First is that the 4 cannon Spit Vc was not common. The only actual combat use I can find is 2 SAAF in the ground attack role in 44-45. These were not clipped wing aircraft and had the Vokes filter under the nose. They also carried a 500 pounder on the centerline. They were NOT dogfighters and with the Vokes filter and extra weight would have been at a real disadvantage.
There are lots of photos of 4 cannon Spit Vc launching off Wasp to reinforce Malta. They had two of the cannon removed when they got there to save weight and help performance.
Clipped wings on the Spit started with the experimental Spit III that had the first internal armored glass windscreen and retractable tail wheel.
The Spit V in all it's forms, Va, Vb and Vc was capable of having the wings clipped and many were when they started using the derated Merlin 45s and came up with the LFv. Clipping the wings was often done in the field and basically involved removing curved tip and fitting a piece of wood on the end and sanding it to fit.
The Spit XII had clipped wings in production and follow on Spit VIII, IX, XVI XIV etc all were flown with clipped wings.
The Spit V should be able to carry a 30, 45 or 90 gallon slipper tank as that was regular practice in squadron service.
All that being said, I wouldn't advocate for a 4 cannon Spit. A Spit LFIXe or XVIe would be a much better addition.
image is of 4 cannon 2 Squadron SAAF Spits over the Adriatic in 44-45
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1105536909_4cannonspits.jpg)
-
I think Thrilla has hit the nail on the head -
The difference between the 5 and the 9 speed wise is almost negligable at low alts.
This is a problem with the Spit 9 we have. If I remember from a previous thread its an HF model.
Or at least its a mish mash of different variants not being truly representative of any one of them.
Maybe a change in engine (not sure which we have) to a more accurate version would help. After all wasn't the 9 basically 5 with a bigger engine as a stop gap until the 8 was ready?
If so how come our 9 and 5 have the same power as Thrilla stated?
Different note - Dan that Spit 7 that I did ("Spirit of Kent") made it in today. Remember the Grey one with the narrow invasion stripes, and you were very helpfull in showing that by DDay the pointy tips had been removed.