Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Am0n on October 25, 2001, 08:43:00 AM
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Wheres the edge for the p47?
The only thing that i have noted my self is hi speed manuevering, but when you manuever the p47 you loose the energy edge. Also the jug rolls faster.
Ive just found it impossible to shake a 109 that gets on your 6 less than 1k when you re flying the p47.
Any help is welcome, thank you in advance.
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The advantage comes from altitude.
Rarely can you escape a jug flown by a competent pilot that has an e advantage. Its a fun fight.
a 109 cant dive to escape but can avoid the 1st couple of passes and if the jug is patient he will get ya. But any mistake a 109 can reverse easier on a jug then say a p51.
Now a good jug pilot can make the thing do amazing toejame. The average fella isnt gonna get in a jug and furball.
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dive dive dive! :) 109 cant dive for sheet and the P47 is a div-a-holic. Also P47 folls better than 109, especially with speed.
Nim
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Amon, we fought last night mate, sadly I shot you down in my spit.........you were chasing me with a fellow 190 on you side, as you started to catch me i pulled into defensive scissors, the 190 over shot, however you stayed on my tail (I thought you had me there!!), after pulling scissors again you broke off and climbed.......I was able to get on your 6, at this point you had lost E, i expected you to dive (as we were at 14k or so)but you climbed????, you then turned right to avoid another enemy aircraft which had joined the fight, (I was dragging you and the 190 west towards my fellow country men), once again i expected you to dive, but you maintaned alt....buy this time i had closed to around D350....as you turned i closed into D190....thats when i got you.
I must say that I have never really flown the JUG, however from what i have heard its a good plane in the vertical, and dives like crazy, i wonder if using flaps might help it turn like in the P51?, however if you intend to stay flying the JUG, then I guess that your best choice is to use Boom & Zoom tactics, I would set your convergence quite long say around D500 or so , and let them 8x50cals work for you. Also turn in the vertical....I wonder if she can hang on her prop like spits do?
<S>
Marcof :)
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Marcof i remeber what your talking about, you warped REAL bad when you were infront of me, i lost site of you all together.
As far as me not diving when i found you on my 6 i was nosing down slightly for speed, if you dive in a jug and have no speed/e (which i was stalling like mad) you accelorate really slow at first, you woulda been even closer. woulda died either way :o
Great to dive if your going 250+ mph, but if im not mistaken i was going much slower.
Im concerned about this last night in squad training we were flying 109's vrs p47s and 1vrs1 i could not beat the 109, eccept once when he was trying get a angle on me comming from 11 oclock and i got a nice snap shot on him @ less than 400 yards.
Ive heard that the p47 can really do rolling scisors well, actualy ive seen it my self. when i try it i stall all over the place.
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Amon I wished I didn't deleted my vids from dogfights Vs 109s :( From memory, ask to Martello, I know we did a 30 min dogfight one on one D30 (off course) Vs his G10.
The G10 is the one controling the fight. It is a supperior plane to the P47 overall.
The 109 strenght : Climb, top speed and guns.
The P47 strenght : Dive handling and stall speed handling.
If you are lower than a G10 and below 10k. You are in deep doodoo. The G10 can BZ you all day long and all you can do is avoid him till you end up on the deck at 150 knts. A clever 109 pilot will make a pass at you, extend a bit and zooooooooooooom way up there. It always makes me smile, looking at him go way up and when you would see other planes wing over, the G10 still goes on going satellite.
Your only chance is to tempt him to turnfight. Most underestimate the P47 semi-elliptical wings and see the P47 as a flying brick ... well it is in one way.
I personaly developed the technique of showing my six to the G10. the guy comes in for a dead 6 attak, and at 1.2 I start a sharp turn. Not too sharp, if too sharp, the G10 pilot will go back wayyyy up, and you just blew more E for nothing.
So I turn sharp, look at him following me, the closer he gets, the more I pull Gs. When he is at 400y, about to shoot (due to ammo load 109 pilots don't spray and pray like .50s planes) I do a rolling scizor and pull hard back in his line of fire (hehehe). It usually does the trick for the guy to overshoot. While doing the rolling scizor, try to keep as much E as you can, but bleed enought for not the guy to hit you.
When the G10 overshots you, then it will for sure go up, sometimes even vertical. Follow him vertical. Look how fast the range increases. If it goes 900y, 1.0, 1.1 and more then quickly wing over and dive for speed, cause the 109 will stall after you and come back in your sorry 6. If distance looks steady like 700y, 750y,800y ... then follow him. It will end up him doing his hammer head at 1k, 1.1k. The P47 will stall before him BUT you can hold the nose straight up longer than him. (I even tail slide sometimes). Little stick adjustments and rudder work can make you hold the nose straight up at 40kts. then use all your ammo load ... spray and spray. Keep spraying as he descends back toward you too, u never know, he may fly into your stream.
Even if you don't kill him, you may scare the heck out of him, and he may not HO you but evas you.
The bad part is that if you finally end up in a G10 6, he can run away from you because of his top speed... the good part is that you can spray like a madman till he is 1k ahead. Who knows, I even saw G10s going turnfight because of a single ping, but you will not fool an experten with that.
If you are engaged by a higher G10 and you are above 10K. You can dogfight it a bit or do the "go vertical and pray". ... But you have an another alternative. Show your 6 again, let the guy come in ... 1.3 1.2 1.1 ... start a shalow dive and gain speed. Be sure to reach 450TAS (109 aileron lock speed ... not elev) before he gets in your 600y. Then roll left, look at him painfully banking left. Perform a sharp right, he cannot follow you. He will then comes back up trying to turn toward you or away. Whatever he does, you still have full control of your plane, "fly circles around him" and take your shot.
You will notice that 3-4 snapshots will be necessary to bring him down, but only 1 of him can ruin your wing. Don't let any LW plane got a snapshot at you. Always do whatever it take to give him a tought shot while you manoever.
In a nuttshell : tempt him to a turnfight. It's easy to make a G10 overshoot or outmanoeuver one but then he goes waayyyy back up, leaving you down there. And you have to do everything all other again and probably die in the process :)
Vs a G10, once u get an edge on him, act quick and go for a kill, or he will go away and come back to get you. :cool:
if all that doesn't make sense, sorry, at least I tried to explain in words. :D
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I certainly dont qualify as a jug expert...or near expert...or....well you get the idea...but...
The jug has a couple of tricks you can use, especially if you start at a reasonable alt. The jug does bleed E and has very good low speed handling (with flaps)...if you have alt to play with fly the "hard deck at your alt...Go for broke on overshoot...hard hi yoyo's or rolling scissors...the 109 will usually try and go up on overshoot...if you hang the prop those 8 x .50's may shred him as he climbs out...if he goes vertical early then you know you have a tougher fight but with enough alt you can make it tough for a 109 trying to dive with you....other option would be to dive hard then chop totally and scissor...the 109 is much stiffer at speed and probably cant follow well...however if the con "pops up" on you instead of engaging you'll have a tough road to travel....to me the jugs best feature is its hanging prop hose down capability....i just cant work things to thayt end often enough
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frenchys comments showed after my post....what he said ;) He's certainly one of the sticks that will make you MF away as you try and figure what the hell happened :mad:
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
if all that doesn't make sense, sorry, at least I tried to explain in words. :D
NO NO NO, thank you frenchy! makes perfect sense.. thanks
Sounds like i need to work on my p47 flying, i fly it all the time but i cannot make it rolling scizor to well.
So the 109 has a higher top speed than the jug?
I always thought to not follow them into the vertical but i guess looking at it like how you and humble said (follow if they are not extending to fast) would be great!
so the jug can hang on its prop?
feal free to keep posting, i can use all the knowledge you guys can muster!
thx again :D
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HI Aamon.Frenchy is the man when it comes to Jug flying.I have one bit of tactic I use for any pane that rolls well and has an enemy swooping down on your high six...When he desends on you,you put your nose down too to get very fast and then level.Watch him behind you and when he is 1.4 away on your six and closing,shut off your engine and apply full rudder/opposite aileron(sideslip).Try to keep wings level as a visible yawing will give it away..A dead engine causes more drag than one with the throttle chopped and combined with the rudder/opposite aileron will set up a nice overshoot.Turn like Frenchy said or do a barrel roll but you should turn the engine back on just before he overshoots.It takes practice and is a one-shot manouver cause he won't fall for it twice..And if you can pull it off,it is the most satisfying of all defensive manouvers. :)
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Hi amon, glad to hear you are a jug man.
Good advice from Frenchy. Let em say a few things too. First, turn the very least that you have too. Energy is life in a P-47. If you are at an energy advantage (which is what you should strive for) then horde it! Dont give up any energy that you do not have to. Hub Zemke was a proponent of the dive hit and recover tactic. It applies just as well in AH as it did in WW2. Inevitably you will be caught low because that is where 98% of the fights are. I advise a wingman if possible, but I also know that isnt going to happen all the time. When you get caught lower than a G10 (especially at low altitudes, 15K and lower) then you want to try to equalize your energy states. Hopefully you have enough altitude to dive to get your speed up. You have to know that you will be defensive for the entirity of the fight (most likely). Your oppertunities for a kill will be strictly overshoots and snapshots. Good gunnery and never losing sight of the 109 are essential. Any energy you expend in an avasive is not nearly as easy to recover as the 109 will recover his energy much quicker. Time is on his side. You should be lookign for extenmtion oppertunties. Attempt to get under his belly and reverse your direction in a direction that will provide the most seperation between you. If you are low, try to hide in the terrain and get low enough that your icon will not show. As frenchy has said, your hi-speed handling is superior to his, so staying as fast as possible is to your advantage. Your breakturn is better than his above 260 IAS, but as stated previously, you will not recover your energy at the rate he will. Good luck and if you want to fly knights, look up the 56th when you are online. We got some pretty good P-47 sticks.
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Ammo and Sancho are the B&Z masters. The worst thing that can happen to a LW pilot is Ammo/Frenchy combo.
My gunery is so poor that I had to learn how to dogfight and I will hang on your tail like a pitbull on your sleeve. Ammo or Sancho may be less agressive but they rarely miss in their high speed pass. (don't ask me how they do it, the only answers I get are : "hehehe").
Amon, if you want to practice your scizors or P47 skills, feel free to beep MarkAT/Nomde/sancho/Ammo or me when online, we will go in the DA, u learn a lot from "replays".
From memory Kronos, Drex, Lethturn, RA are true P47 demons, learn from them too.
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Thanks guys this is great, all of these tactics ive never thought to use against a 109. ecspecaily the vertical moves, the 109 in the vertical has put fear in me :D
But when i go vertical i dont(er didnt hehe) hang on the prop, i normal level and thats why they catch me so easily. But i gotta say i was amazed to have this tank of a plane hang liek that, i tried it out last night.
Had a nice 1 on 1 fight with a enemy 109 last night, i recorded it and im going to watch it end to end 100 times. It was a great fight, we fought at 20k all the way down to the deck were it ended buy a ill-proformed manuever which ended with me and the ground.
Ive noted one thing, you have to extend a lot when fighting a uber turning/e AC, need the extra distance for the slow turn around when comming HO at each other trying to get a angle (not going for a HO attack). I found my self before this turning when they were turning(to close) and burning my E trying to get around as fast as them.
Do you 56th guys find the above stated to be true?
Id love to come over to knight and fly with you but i really have a great time with the Nightmares, great bunch of guys. Now only if i could get em outta those sissy turn fighters! :D
thanks again everyone :cool:
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I have nothing to add except in response to Am0n's original post--
"Ive just found it impossible to shake a 109 that gets on your 6 less than 1k when you re flying the p47."
The key is, don't let him get on your cold six. Frenchy's advice to turn and watch to see what he does is the best thing to do. If one makes it in close on your six, you're hosed. If that happens, heed the words of Schilling:
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Sancho
XO 63rd FS, 56th FG "Zemke's Wolfpack" (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
The only time to do any sloppy flying is when someone is firing at you, and then if uncoordinated flying is necessary for evasive action, really get sloppy.--David C. Schilling
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Interesting debate ...
:cool:
I ve found myself in funny situations vs D30 and theres not much you can do if ANY plane get in your six with more E less than 1.0.. however making the 109 going into low speed is to my understanding the best bet and dont be afraid to go vertical if u r out of reach ... do not forget 109 MUST slow down to follow u on a dive specially if close to ground chances are he will crash .. its not a plane for newcomers and most of the people forget trimming trying to control the plane by sticking to the lever and pullllllling :) to get out of the dive .... other suggestion is to make changes in the direction .. a 109 going fast on a dive is real difficult to control ... in other words MOVE away and look back all the time and dont let him get a clear shot ... deflection shots r difficult specially with 20 / 30 mm and machine guns r not a big threat ... if he is a little bit higher try to go under his nose ..dont panic , roll , dive , get out of the way , use the logic , bleed him E , try to avoid any contact .. if u are in a situation where u can dive .. do it but not straight .. theres certain distance 109 can travel on a dive where he can get a shot if u r diving straight .. 109 accelerate real well , be creative , use your art as a d30 pilot ... most people forget piloting a plane in a virtual world is also an art .. be aggresive .. if he gets close let him know u also have guns ... 109 pilots r for nature very delicate and the normal tendency is to fly away .. that will give u time to regruop... another suggestion u already know .. dont be afraid to ask questions especially to other pilots with more experience .. the people posting here are top of the line when it comes to fly AH and I ve been shoot down more than one time for two or three of then EVEN when I had the advantage ... so no... its not a lost battle if u find a 109 in your close six and approaching its just an indication u ll be in trouble if u dont do something REAL FAST ;)
One last suggestion .. get a little time and FLY 109 in TA .. go to 10-15 K and DIVE .. take a look at the panel see where is the point when u lose control .. grab that in your brain and dont forget .. then use it for ur advantage ...
Wishing you the best in your efforts ... Wespe !!!
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Originally posted by Wespe
Interesting debate ...
One last suggestion .. get a little time and FLY 109 in TA .. go to 10-15 K and DIVE .. take a look at the panel see where is the point when u lose control .. grab that in your brain and dont forget .. then use it for ur advantage ...
Wishing you the best in your efforts ... Wespe !!!
Maybe you want to try that in the DA and not the TA. I think the TA has an arena stall limit on and some planes feel mushy in there. For true flight and gun lethality goto the DA for your testing and not the TA.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Kronos, Drex, Lethturn, RA are true P47 demons
why isn't fester on that list?
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Originally posted by Am0n
so the jug can hang on its prop?
Juggy is the best Hammer-Heading plane in the game... Get some alt, dive on a 109 and let him follow you up.... Do a HH at top, and blast them coming down... (Be sure you start with a BIG E advantage);)
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"Maybe you want to try that in the DA and not the TA.."
:cool: :cool: :cool:
Long time without entering DA or TA .. practices makes a perfect ..
today I ve got shot down in MA more than 6 times by US planes
:mad:
Thanks for the point Herr Fuze ... just trying to be gentle with a fellow enemy :D :D :) :aok :aok
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Slow speed handling, and I mean reallllly slow speed handling, is key to fighting against 109s for P-47s or P-51s.
The 109s are competent and responsive enough to fight at low speeds, making a very tough opponent even for La-7s or Yak-9Us.. but once it gets down to really low speeds, around 150mph, there's practically no difference between a G-10 and a P-47D.
Turning advantage almost disappears, acceleration as a means of escape, is neutralized, climb advantage becomes very hard to utilize, and the torque factor slowly becmes overwhelming. I've had some fantastic fights with great P-47D pilots in the G-10 at those low speed handling contests.
Usually what happens is, when the Bf109 pilot becomes smug and confident about his handling advantage, he fearlessly steps up to the rolling scissors challenge - which he quickly finds that he can get advantageous positioning, but however, getting a firing solution trickier than expected.
The fight is quickly brought down to treetop levels, and degrades into series of continuous flips, 180 rolls, scissors, and near-stall maneuvering. And at this situation, the P-47 is not such a slouch as expected. The 109 holds advantage in acceleration and slightly better turning. The P-47D holds advantage in less wobbliness, more stable roll, better flap usage and firepower. The two important advantages the 109 holds, is about the same as the three~four minor advantages the P-47 holds.
So the fight becomes a contest of "who drives the plane slower, while turning harder, and rolling more often, and does not stall out first" Firing opportunitys are very rare for both opponents, and it becomes very breath taking.
So, if there is absolutley no escape for the P-47, then the Jug might as well try to lure the 109 into serious of rolls and rolling scissors.
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109g10 vs. p47d30
109 has angles and energy advantage. P47 pilot would have to be much better than 109 pilot to win.
Only advantage p47 has over 109 is guns and ability to take damage.
Scissor and HO your butt off if you are the 47 pilot.
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I have flown both aircraft extensively (not anymore planetside and chess taking my time)
From my Honest Opinion the p47 has zero chance vs 109 g10 considering equal pilots..
While frenchy is correct most 109s will immelman into orbit.. A ace will high yoyo you and saddle...
Its better rudder and acceleration will take it from there... (throttle management of course) If a over shoot is possibble then lag induced roll will saddle you back up...
If the Jug dives and runs the 109 can just stay at alt and run them down with a lower IAS but a higher TAS (Indicated vs true airspeed)
The jug is just simply outclassed... Now that doen't mean its a dog. An expert in a inferior aircraft can beat a novice almost every time...
Also if the Jug begins with advantage the 8 50's make quick work of anything in less than 2 secs trigger time...
be very weary of g10's its hit and miss the large majority are novices but when you meet a ace trust me you'll know by the fact you have no time to react and the pressure is always on you..
Stick with the JUG though very fun airplane... above 15k its starts to get very fast.. and can thwart off some of its disadvatages.
Kwessa makes a very good point he very correct with exception that the 109 when caught in such a fight can just turn away from the angles fight reaccelerate to ludicris speed and then repeat the process all over again.. While your jug is still floundering around.
(good tactic though Kwessa may buy enough time for friendly to clear, who knows)
2 cents
DoctorYo
PS listen to ammo, frenchy and sancho if he still flys... they know whats up when it comes to the JUG...
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I fly the jug a lot. the 109G10 completly outclasses it under 20k.
but it takes a guy who knows how to handle the 109's energy and keep it in a rather narrow preformance band. you can't just dive in at 500 mph or yank on the stick till the target is infront of you.
not to mention the terrible nose cannon (useless with my aiming).
lucky for the jug pilots, these guys are extremly rare.
above 20k, well that's another story.
Bozon