Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jamusta on January 06, 2005, 02:39:46 PM
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I am one who used to complain about alt monkeys. I would hardly ever fly above say 12k. Most times I would be around 8k. In my recent quest to crush the horde I have had to fly 20k+ to engage them. I have found that the majority fly that high because it grants them safe passage to their target. Most dont fly that high to have an advantage. I have been flying that high for a couple of weeks and now have the trend down pack. I find that they are unable to fight at that alt. The thin air causes them to stall. The majority will just dive away. Those who are at 25k will simply fly past you. Those that are willing to engage start flopping around, but that is the minority.
If you are gonna fly that high learn to fight that high...
Maybe a new movement is in order.
Like from Al Bundy... No MA'AM
Men Against Alt Monkeys
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If this trend continues, we will have
* Air to air combat at altitudes above 20000 feet.
* Large groups of somewhat organized attackers and defenders
What next? It's starting to look like WW2 in here!
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No we will have even more people flying high for no reason to avoid fighting
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LOL,
When I can't find any low level fights, I started flying between 10k and 20k and put the restraint on myself that I could not go below 10k. Mostly just to push the alt monkeys down.
I found the same thing Jam as well as found some good fights. But more often then not, the second these alt monkeys get in trouble they dive strait to the deck. I laugh my arse off because now they have to spend all that time climbing back up to 20K.
HAHAHAHA.
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I tried this once before. It was when we made the change over to AH2 and it seemed as if more players than ever before were flying at foolish, and to them useless altitudes. (useless only because they have no clue to how use alt or even how to fight a high alt fight)
I could only do this for a week or two before I got so completely bored that I couldnt take it anymore. Now the highest I'll ever go is 15k. And thats only if I'm afk. Really 10k is all you'll ever need. Most dont realize this. Or even understand why thats all you need. Anyone diving on you from 20k is going to be way too fast to make any sort of a shot IF you know they are there. And if they aren't too fast (which can be told by rate of closure) they are no more of a threat than someone who is engaging from co-alt.
Basicly what I'm getting at is a 20k con is absolutly no threat when you are at 10k. For one they will probably never see you from that high, never notice you. And when they do, sucking the E out of someone or even forcing an over shot isn't much of a difficult task with 10k to work with.
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Basicly what I'm getting at is a 20k con is absolutly no threat when you are at 10k. For one they will probably never see you from that high, never notice you. And when they do, sucking the E out of someone or even forcing an over shot isn't much of a difficult task with 10k to work with.
Yep, but when they are the only morons to fight you dont have much choice other than log off. Something I have been doing alot lately lolh.
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The European fight in WW2 was all about altitude. The bombers flew higher to avoid the fighters who flew higher to kill the bombers who flew higher...
The P47 was king of the air because of it's high alt performance, as was the P-51, some versions of the 109, and on and on...
Recall that the p-39 and P-40 were considered unfit for service in the European theater due to their poor high alt performance.
I guess what I am saying is that high alt is closer to reality than low alt. What's the problem, here? Are you bored by the climbout? The large difference in the maneuver performance of your aircraft at high alt bugs you? What, exactly? When we go up against Rooks, we take into account that they tend to fly higher than Knights, and act accordingly.
It seems to me that you want thumb candy. Take off, gain a little speed, and immediately start shooting at the cylons or the imperial tie fighters. Maybe we could arrange it so you could air-spawn near the enemy base.
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Hubert what you never and cant understand is that some people aren't here to pretend this is real life, and don't have all day to fly around and would rather fight than fly around. On top of which, if you do climb up to 20k and meet a con they are inept and can't fight because all they really do is BnZ or dive away so when they get into a fight where they don't have an advantage they are screwed.
It wouldn't be so bad if I knew that if I climbed to 20k I would find some good fights. Problem is that most people are at 20k cause the have to be to survive.
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Shubie sometimes you just dont get it man....You are thinking in terms of WWII, well guess what this isnt WWII.
The problem is not the alt, it is the fact that they climb that high to AVOID the fight is the problem. I decided to stop complaining about the alt monkeys and simply fly up to them. What did I find at 20k? Not a darn thing. A bunch of 190s 51's thats it. I did see a zeke at 25k. When I try to engage they dive away or simply out run me. Well im not gonna chase them down after climbing that high.
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There really are two sides to this discussion, and yours is one of them.
Let's take it point by point.
You "just want to fight". Ok. Then find a like-minded playmate, and play. Yes, we are climbing high to avoid a dogfight. Why? Because WE ARE CARRYING 3 OR 4 THOUSAND POUNDS OF EXTRA WEIGHT THAT WE WANT TO DELIVER TO A TARGET. We cannot win a dogfight under those conditions. We don't have the energy to win a dogfight, and CAN'T GET IT, EVEN IF WE DROP OUR ORD AT DOT DISTANCE.
In my book, YOU WIN if I drop my ordnance. You have already won, even if I shoot you down. That's because my goal is to deliver the ordnance to the target, and destroy the target. On the other hand, if I avoid getting shot down and manage to make my delivery, I just beat you. You were unable to stop me. Neener-neener.
In my humble opinion, your gameplay is too one-dimensional. Your entire world centers around a dogfight, and you miss the potential for a lot of fun in the other aspects of the game.
Many of us don't have a need to have a heart-pounding experience every minute online, no matter how much or little time we spend in the game. Different strokes for different folks, as they used to say when I was a kid.
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Originally posted by jamusta
Shubie sometimes you just dont get it man....You are thinking in terms of WWII, well guess what this isnt WWII.
The problem is not the alt, it is the fact that they climb that high to AVOID the fight is the problem. I decided to stop complaining about the alt monkeys and simply fly up to them. What did I find at 20k? Not a darn thing. A bunch of 190s 51's thats it. I did see a zeke at 25k. When I try to engage they dive away or simply out run me. Well im not gonna chase them down after climbing that high.
You just illustrate the whole point. They don't have a clue. Why would someone take a zeke up to 25K. That plane is useless up there. Any decent stick in a decent plane will run him down in a dive so he can't excape either.
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Huebert why are you talking about tool shed killing.
We all know why toolshed killers fly that high. Jam started this thread talking about people that fly that high and can't fight. We all know why the tool shed heros can't fight lol.
In my humble opinion, your gameplay is too one-dimensional. Your entire world centers around a dogfight, and you miss the potential for a lot of fun in the other aspects of the game.
Why do you feel the need to espouse your one dimesional view of our gameplay. That horse is dead.
We don't miss the potential of anything. I've done the toolshed hero, stratigize to win the war thing, not much too it.
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Originally posted by rshubert
There really are two sides to this discussion, and yours is one of them.
Let's take it point by point.
You "just want to fight". Ok. Then find a like-minded playmate, and play. Yes, we are climbing high to avoid a dogfight. Why? Because WE ARE CARRYING 3 OR 4 THOUSAND POUNDS OF EXTRA WEIGHT THAT WE WANT TO DELIVER TO A TARGET. We cannot win a dogfight under those conditions. We don't have the energy to win a dogfight, and CAN'T GET IT, EVEN IF WE DROP OUR ORD AT DOT DISTANCE.
In my book, YOU WIN if I drop my ordnance. You have already won, even if I shoot you down. That's because my goal is to deliver the ordnance to the target, and destroy the target. On the other hand, if I avoid getting shot down and manage to make my delivery, I just beat you. You were unable to stop me. Neener-neener.
In my humble opinion, your gameplay is too one-dimensional. Your entire world centers around a dogfight, and you miss the potential for a lot of fun in the other aspects of the game.
Many of us don't have a need to have a heart-pounding experience every minute online, no matter how much or little time we spend in the game. Different strokes for different folks, as they used to say when I was a kid.
Shubie, I can respect you for playing the game for the reasons you do. And I can understand why you fly the way you do.
I should clearify what I mean, or who I was directing my statements toward. Its the guys who only fly high and think they are up there with an advantage. They make one pass and when they are sucked dry of the E advantage either Die or do anything they can to turn and run for home. These are the ones who when met co-alt, will not merge with you and commit to a fight. And those are the ones Jamusta is talking about.
I wont load a fighter up with three thousand pounds of bombs just for the simple sake of bombing something. To me, there is no real challenge in doing that other than not getting shot down because your heavy. Sure you can fly higher than the rest, but even then there is no challenge in that either. Like you said, different strokes for different folks.
I only critisize those who will fly a light fighter and engage only when they have 20k under them and no cons above them. To me thats the lamest in the game. I'm not saying you have to take a 190 down on the deck and turn fight with spits either. Altho there are thoes that do.
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Originally posted by mars01
Huebert why are you talking about tool shed killing.
We all know why toolshed killers fly that high. Jam started this thread talking about people that fly that high and can't fight. We all know why the tool shed heros can't fight lol.
Why do you feel the need to espouse your one dimesional view of our gameplay. That horse is dead.
We don't miss the potential of anything. I've done the toolshed hero, stratigize to win the war thing, not much too it.
Well, here's where I turn the tables...you probably don't do the toolshed killing thing because you're not very good at it. You know, can't pull up in time, or miss the toolshed, or keep getting killed by the ack, or don't have enough patience to learn anything beyond turning the plane in small, tight circles.
And, by the way, my view of the game is not one dimensional. I fly fighters, bombers, attack, and vehicle sorties. I resupply, capture bases, sometimes fly in furballs, and vulch when I get the opportunity. It's all good.
But, you will note, I never start threads running down your game play style, implying that you are somehow of a lesser breed due to your concentration on only one aspect. I leave that to you gomers. Then I have fun trying (without much luck) to show you how ridiculous your position is. I think you suffer from cranial rectal self-insertion. It blocks the sight, the hearing, and it smells bad.
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Originally posted by rshubert
or don't have enough patience to learn anything beyond turning the plane in small, tight circles.
just curious, doesn't this butter knife slice both ways?
the ones with out knowledge are the ones turning in tight small circles? am I right?
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Well, here's where I turn the tables...you probably don't do the toolshed killing thing because you're not very good at it. You know, can't pull up in time, or miss the toolshed, or keep getting killed by the ack, or don't have enough patience to learn anything beyond turning the plane in small, tight circles.
LOL ... probably one of the funniest things I have read in quite awhile.
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LOL Slapshot, might be funny to you, but I have not found the damn toolshed yet on any map.............have bombed, rocketed, torped, gunned down every other structure or building but never got a
System: Toolshed Destroyed messiage! :D guess I fall into the not very good at it crowd ;)
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
just curious, doesn't this butter knife slice both ways?
the ones with out knowledge are the ones turning in tight small circles? am I right?
Well, of course. The whole point is, however, that one can have fun at any or all of the different aspects of the game. The only thing that bothers me about any of this is the derision certain individuals heap on others that don't practice their one-dimensional version of the game. The guys who insist that anyone who doesn't fly their way is not playing the game The Way It Should Be Played. They complain about alt-monkeys. They complain about GV drivers. They complain about toolshed killers, boom-n-zoomers, ground gunners and vulchers.
That's the center of the issue. These clowns that want to dictate my gameplay style irritate me in a vague sort of way, and I feel the need to object to their feeble protestations. They can't affect the GAME in any real manner, so they come to the boards and puff up their hollow chests, and crow about their natural superiority to each other.
Meanwhile, most of us are just here to have some fun, and I have a LOT of fun poking holes in their little hot-air balloons. I guess I have a sadistic streak.
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Originally posted by mars01
LOL,
When I can't find any low level fights, I started flying between 10k and 20k and put the restraint on myself that I could not go below 10k. Mostly just to push the alt monkeys down.
I found the same thing Jam as well as found some good fights. But more often then not, the second these alt monkeys get in trouble they dive strait to the deck. I laugh my arse off because now they have to spend all that time climbing back up to 20K.
HAHAHAHA.
Just fire up a Ki-61 and you'll amazedhow many folks come on down to say hi:)....
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Originally posted by rshubert
Meanwhile, most of us are just here to have some fun, and I have a LOT of fun poking holes in their little hot-air balloons.
at least you are having fun, that is the whole point to all of this sim/game in a nutshell!
hold the phone! we got little hot-air balloons to shoot and poke as well? ya'll that see these must have awesome graphics and high performance computers, I have yet to see such a sight!:(
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In my humble opinion, your gameplay is too one-dimensional. Your entire world centers around a dogfight, and you miss the potential for a lot of fun in the other aspects of the game
There is no other aspect of the game, as one marine pilot from korea stated....there are only two types of planes...fighters and targets. The only real reason for all the toolshed BS is to delude some folks into voluntarily putting on the sheep suit. :D
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Originally posted by: rshubert
Well, here's where I turn the tables...you probably don't do the toolshed killing thing because you're not very good at it. You know, can't pull up in time, or miss the toolshed, or keep getting killed by the ack, or don't have enough patience to learn anything beyond turning the plane in small, tight circles.
And, by the way, my view of the game is not one dimensional. I fly fighters, bombers, attack, and vehicle sorties. I resupply, capture bases, sometimes fly in furballs, and vulch when I get the opportunity. It's all good.
But, you will note, I never start threads running down your game play style, implying that you are somehow of a lesser breed due to your concentration on only one aspect. I leave that to you gomers. Then I have fun trying (without much luck) to show you how ridiculous your position is. I think you suffer from cranial rectal self-insertion. It blocks the sight, the hearing, and it smells bad.
Hubert you gotta work on the reading comprehension.
For starters I did not say your Gameplay I said
Originally posted by: Me
Why do you feel the need to espouse your one dimesional view of our gameplay. That horse is dead.
Turn the tables, all you did was prove you don't have a clue.
Again if you were reading what I said was Originally posted by: Me
We don't miss the potential of anything. I've done the toolshed hero, stratigize to win the war thing, not much too it.
I was a MAW and if there is one thing the MAW have down to a Science it is Taking bases. Not many do it better. So I learned how to tool shed and I am good at it cause it isn't that hard. I can kill ack with 5 cannon rounds. I can put a bomb ontop of a GV. No big deal. I can take out a GV hanger in one pass. Ohhh the how difficult it is lolh. Now you got me sounding like Zazen. :D
Now I wasnt trying to be insulting, but your last post obviously is.
I think you suffer from cranial rectal self-insertion. It blocks the sight, the hearing, and it smells bad.
You obviously feel inferior about the way you fly, thats your problem.
You say But, you will note, I never start threads running down your game play style,
so what was the point of this comment...In my humble opinion, your gameplay is too one-dimensional. Your entire world centers around a dogfight, and you miss the potential for a lot of fun in the other aspects of the game.
Seems like you were "running down" something? BTW how am I running down your game?
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Well, of course. The whole point is, however, that one can have fun at any or all of the different aspects of the game. The only thing that bothers me about any of this is the derision certain individuals heap on others that don't practice their one-dimensional version of the game. The guys who insist that anyone who doesn't fly their way is not playing the game The Way It Should Be Played. They complain about alt-monkeys. They complain about GV drivers. They complain about toolshed killers, boom-n-zoomers, ground gunners and vulchers.
Hubert you are the one in here making accustations about people and the way they fly.
This whole post was about people that climb to 20 light in a fighter and can't even fight at that alt or only dive away at the sight of a co alt con.
No where was that talking about dropping bombs. You were the one trying to turn the thread that way.
You are the one that started telling people that their way of flying is one dimensional.
If you have a problem with anyone it should be yourself.:rofl
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You mean silliest Slap lolh.
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Just fire up a Ki-61 and you'll amazedhow many folks come on down to say hi
LOLH
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That's the center of the issue. These clowns that want to dictate my gameplay style irritate me in a vague sort of way, and I feel the need to object to their feeble protestations. They can't affect the GAME in any real manner, so they come to the boards and puff up their hollow chests, and crow about their natural superiority to each other.
You miss the point entirely here....your busy dealing with the least demanding aspect of the game as its primary feature. Bombing takes no real skill (cept CV killing). Jabo missions take very very little skill (but some)...I'll leave GV's out altogeather since they're porked anyway. On the otherhand the science of air combat takes years to really learn. Folks like Mars have forgotten more about the toolshed war than you've ever learned...the truth is simple....its boring. But it's easy to become a contributer to the cause.
So.....
since the learning curve is so steep its not uncommon for many to take the path of least resistance and drive the bus instead....gee same thing happened in WW2...everyone started out as a future fighter pilot and 95% of em flew socks/bullets and/or bombs. In the end we all find our own level....
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You forgot fleet captains.
Originally posted by rshubert
Well, of course. The whole point is, however, that one can have fun at any or all of the different aspects of the game. The only thing that bothers me about any of this is the derision certain individuals heap on others that don't practice their one-dimensional version of the game. The guys who insist that anyone who doesn't fly their way is not playing the game The Way It Should Be Played. They complain about alt-monkeys. They complain about GV drivers. They complain about toolshed killers, boom-n-zoomers, ground gunners and vulchers.
That's the center of the issue. These clowns that want to dictate my gameplay style irritate me in a vague sort of way, and I feel the need to object to their feeble protestations. They can't affect the GAME in any real manner, so they come to the boards and puff up their hollow chests, and crow about their natural superiority to each other.
Meanwhile, most of us are just here to have some fun, and I have a LOT of fun poking holes in their little hot-air balloons. I guess I have a sadistic streak.
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Some people never will get it. I give up!!!!!
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At above 20K, try the Spit IX.
You can hear the second turbine kicking in at roughly 20K.
The plane has a very good high alt performance.
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Someone take the caffeine away from Mars!!!!!!!
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I agree that if the fight is mostly low, their should be the need for people to still fly at 20k. The only time I get up to 20k or more is if there are people that high and I will go up to engage them. Most of the time I fly around 10k above the land which seems fine. I will go up to no more than 15k on rare occasions and if im in a 262. Other than that I see no need to go high, especially my 38 cant dive compared to other planes.
Canaris
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:D
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Originally posted by jamusta
Shubie sometimes you just dont get it man
ROFL Jam, I believe that is the kindest, most generous comment possible.
The term understatement would be .......well an understatement. :D
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I always flew at optimum altitudes for not only my planes performance but also the current situation in the area. Does that mean I'm always a "astronaut" as some of you seem to think that all folks are above 10k, no. I fly in with an altitude that suits the current conditions.
It's a rather funny thing considering folks will complain if you BnZ and they will complain if you don't turn with them when there's multiple others around or folks inbound that could be potential threats fairly quickly. So really what does that leave? Leaves only fighting their way and your a panzy because you won't turn with all their buds there or when their fairly close and headed your way.
If it's a 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 ( with atleast a decent possibility of surviving) then yes I'll go to the deck and I'll fight against anything. It seems more often than not though when I do engage a low bird they will try their best to stay away long enough till a buddy can come jump in the fight. The second their low and fast buddy comes in they'll actually start to be aggressive.
With this in mind why should anyone fly how you folks want them to? You don't want folks at 20K but when at low alts alot of you also don't want to fight aggressively unless you've got an extreme advantage and will play avoidance tactics until a friendly comes to help? Seems like the pot calling the kettle black if you asked me.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
With this in mind why should anyone fly how you folks want them to? You don't want folks at 20K but when at low alts alot of you also don't want to fight aggressively unless you've got an extreme advantage and will play avoidance tactics until a friendly comes to help? Seems like the pot calling the kettle black if you asked me.
Cobra, do NOT take this the wrong way, please!
but outside of Clifra, Angus, rshubert ( because I am uncertian of their game play style), the rest here in this thread could give a care about having the advantage, being outnumbered and welcome the fight even if it was 4 on 1, now 5,6 or 7 on 1 yeah maybe that would be a little over the top but we would all probably stay and fight it to the death and never say a word when we finally get shot down in the game..... so I was wondering if you was refering to people in the game ingenral or in this thread?
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Having done my fair share of flying quite high in a mustang I will say this. To me flying very high in a mustang is as fun as flying low in a spitfire (I have been messing around with flying a spit at no more than 5k lately). The only downside is the long climb to alt.
The mustang really shines above 20k. I'll turn with about anything up there since I have all the air under me to use for e management. It also makes quite a bit of power relative to many of the "good turning" rides at that alt. It's also a bit difficult to run from. If they dive to the deck so be it. I can either let em go and work on their friends who show up to help, or I'll just dive with them. If I get ganged so what, how else am I gonna learn to fly and fight.
Really nothing better than a high alt stall fight, its much different than fighting on the deck.
Zaphod
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Out of boredom tonight, I grabbed to 20k while angling to intercept an enemy dar contact that was headed to our base.
It turns it out it was a C-47. At 20k. You guys aren't kidding about people flying higher these days.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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TC in general. When it's a 1 on 1 people should fight no questions asked. That doesn't necessarily mean try to turn fight a turnfighter if your in a bnzer or the other way around. You fight your fight. That also doesn't mean you have to or should be timid as hell when doing so. Fight the intelligent fight I guess but try to be aggressive.
It just seems to me you have all these folks complain about the high flyers and you have the ones who complain about tree huggers. What I find funny is there is a happy medium between the two. That 10 to 15k window is where you'd think you see a majority of the fights. Not saying eveyone should fly that high or that low. Reason being is your going to have the high flyers and the tree huggers no matter where you go.
I'm more annoyed when you have those folks who fly at alt or on the deck and run when it's an even matchup. Or as I said previously when you have those folks who will purposely be timid and avoid a confrontation until a buddy comes in an even fight. I've seen this so much lately. LA7s running from my mustang both on the deck and at alt. 109s and 190s doing the same thing. I could probably list a ton of birds that are considered an equal matchup that run.
What's even more annoying is when a person flies a particular bird and gets his/her arse spanked in it even though he/she has an advantage in most areas but because they lost they go grab some other bird because they can't fly what they were in in the first place. They'll jump to what some would consider a no talent bird and come back spraying away. Majority of the time they'll be in an equal bird then come running back in an LA7, Hurri, Spitfire, or N1K. When I get hammered in my Mustang I don't go running to another bird. I come right back in what I was in originally and try again with a new approach. People here take the easy way out constantly instead of making an effort to try.
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hehe....
Once again the Ki-61 is the answer....no doubt it'll be around as long as you decide to stay (less of course you kill it)...or are in a hurricane zeke or other gerbil driven ride (The Ki has twin gerbil drive:))....
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When I get hammered in my Mustang I don't go running to another bird. I come right back in what I was in originally and try again with a new approach. People here take the easy way out constantly instead of making an effort to try
Hmmmm.....
And what would you grab as an upgrade...a tempest?
Your an outstanding stick and a great fight (the few times we've tangled) but your also flying the best "Combo" ride in the game. With the exception of the la-7 below 7k and the P-47 over 30k you have an exploitable edge across the board. You do however fly a mean P47-40 as well:aok ...
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A reason that people dont know how to fight at high alt is that the fights are always down low.
If you look at the pilots who come in at 15k they (and Im of them) are almost always down by the deck within the first 3-4 min of the fight. Reason to this is that thats where the furball is. As you start fighting and you drain E you will eventually end up near the deck. Nothing wrong with this.
Thing is though that this makes pilots more skilled in low level fights. Hence making them dive out of the uncomfy situation even earlier. Which in turn prevents them from learning to fight at higher alts.
I know I suck at high alt fights and yeah I do dive down to where I can get help if things turn uggly (I screw up or more enemies come in at my alt). But imho the best fights during a furball is around 10-15k. Because there you find much smaller number of targets and you dont have to worry about the cherry picking lala´s.
The quality of fights at high alt would be higher if people learned to fight at higher alts, yes. I dont see people learning this because the safe route to the deck is always there and they pull that card very fast and usually the people in the 10-15k bracket are very good pilots. Since the avg pilot cant handle the 15k fights they will rather go low then up to 20k. This means even less fights at 20k then 15k and hence even fewer who can handle it.
Imho fighting at high alt isnt booring. Climbing there to find that fight aint booring. Whats booring about very high alt is that its just a staging point for the engagment and a preparation to drop like a stone.
Tex.
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Originally posted by jamusta
Some people never will get it. I give up!!!!!
Don't give up...there's hope that someday you might get it, yet.
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Well for one to learn how to fight at higher alts, especially over 15K+ is to understand you have to use lower G pulling maneuvers, and take wider turns, those that do not know this are the ones that end up on the deck in under a few minutes.....also one needs to consider managing their E when up in the thin air........if you try to pull hard and do quick reversals like on the deck you will bleed worser than a stuck pig and either stall, spin, both or be sent to the tower rather quickly............but don't forget or rule out the HO :) the most widely used prefered method by most!
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A reason that people dont know how to fight at high alt is that the fights are always down low.
Tex let me know when your on, cause I always see the inverse.
LOLH Morph, No doubt hahahaha.
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Lol even took to upping a Spit 14 to get the high alt guys. What happens? Straight to the deck.
In fact few weeks ago the opposition sent in 2 262's (joined a few mins later by a 3rd) after 3 of us Spit 14's, guess we should be honored.
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Most people suck above 20K. Partly because its a different skill set requiring a different kind of timing. Teamwork is really important up there. And the kind of flying is very different - mistakes aren't as easy to make up for since you don't have as much horsepower on tap.
But I agree with all but one (obvious) opinion here. 99% of the people I run into at 20K or above are transiting there to avoid a fight and, if engaged, will beeline for the nearest toolshed to drop their ord or strafe. I don't pursue below 15K because (a) it's a waste of my time and (b) there's usually friendlies milling around at 10K to deal with him.
Likewise, most of the pork orgy types make their mass Jabo runs ... and I think their brains seize up or something once their racks are empty. Whatever (marginal) skill they display in diveboming with a P51 from 20K is quickly compensated for by some of the worst flying and tactics after that drop. I guess because they're already "won", huh?
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i like cheese.... and cheese sandwiches.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Most people suck above 20K. Partly because its a different skill set requiring a different kind of timing. Teamwork is really important up there. And the kind of flying is very different - mistakes aren't as easy to make up for since you don't have as much horsepower on tap.
But I agree with all but one (obvious) opinion here. 99% of the people I run into at 20K or above are transiting there to avoid a fight and, if engaged, will beeline for the nearest toolshed to drop their ord or strafe. I don't pursue below 15K because (a) it's a waste of my time and (b) there's usually friendlies milling around at 10K to deal with him.
Likewise, most of the pork orgy types make their mass Jabo runs ... and I think their brains seize up or something once their racks are empty. Whatever (marginal) skill they display in diveboming with a P51 from 20K is quickly compensated for by some of the worst flying and tactics after that drop. I guess because they're already "won", huh?
Dok, wow we in the 56th often wish we could meet more cons at 20k and above, our Jugs just start getting frisky at 20k...:) And when you put on the WEP with a D40 20k and above, it just booms along. We fly sweeps at 22k to split the difference on mid alt and being able to climb up to altrunny bunnies.:)
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Humble just as an example I've had some folks get shot down in their spit IX/spit V and when they come back they've grabbed a bird such as an A6M, N1K or a Hurricane. Granted I still have an advantage in speed but now they have an even greater advantage in turning ability and equal to or above in fire power.
I could very easily have rtb'd and grabbed a turner myself to counter but I'm just not that way. I'll keep fighting in what I'm in and I'll even take chances and try to suprise them and turn with them. What's so frustrating is the planes they were flying in the first place were equal to or more capable in most areas. Because they didn't know how to fly them though they got beat and now want the kill so badly they'll do anything to get it.
It wouldn't be looking to "upgrade" from the Mustang but to grab something that would counter or equal their some of their planes capabilities.
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shubie, i only read you first 2 or 3 post, but...from what ive seen, most grab to 20k or higher with no intention of fighting up there. they seem to want to fly over the nme and not engage them. and the second they lose alt advantage, they dive to deck and run. quite sad.
now,im all for fighting like ww2, but what i just described...is not. so, the closest thing is fighting on deck in furball because thats the only place to find a good fight.
i guess some folks idea of a good fight is many on 1, with alt advantage and BnZ the poor single soul to death. yea, thats real realistic too. :confused: :rofl
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So when guys fly as singles or even in pairs they should be low to medium alt and vunerable to multiple attackers? I'm not gonna fly into a zone that has alot of enemies in it with little to no friendlies and come racing across the deck or even sit at 12 to 15k so I can get jumped by a group of 3 or 4 just to please the community.
If flying into the zone at 20k means I'll be able to survive an attack from multiple attackers at once then I'm going to do so. I won't sit here and say I haven't seen folks run from an even fight at altitude because I have. Does that mean everyone in the community does that, no. This discussion is no different than past discussions in regards to people who fly to survive and people who fly to play air quake. We might as well be discussing the realistic play between Fighter Ace type games to simulation games similiar to AH or IL2. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
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It all depends on the plane you're flying and the average altitude of the fight you are looking to be a part of. Generally speaking, the worse your plane turns the higher you want to be, plane performance at alt taken into account of course. My rule of thumb when in a speed ride is to be higher than 75% of my enemy. If you are underneath an enemy who can also outmanuever your plane, you are going to have problems if he's any good.
If you are in a plane that can outmanuever 75% of your enemy you only need be higher than 25% of your enemy to be even money against someone with equal skill on average. So, if your in a turner altitude is not nearly as important (presuming the 25% you have alt on are the 25% that can out-turn you). In fact, being lower in a turner has the advantage of seducing an otherwise reluctant but higher foe into engaging you when he would likely not do so if you were at or close to his altitude.
Of course, if everyone followed these rules what ends up happening is an 'altitude arms race'. That is, everyone keeps getting higher and higher trying to maintain that 'even-money' situation in their various rides. Thankfully, most do not abide by my guide. ;)
Zazen
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Generally, the higher they fly the less they can do with it.
Too often, they come screaming in a 450+ias, overshoot, attempt to turn like mack truck at those speeds and die. Otherwise (and most 190s are guilty of this) they make one 500ias HO attempt and extend more than 6k out.
ACM in AH is becoming more and more of 'One pass, haul ass' with maybe a HO attempt somewhere inbetween. Alt is just more of a guarantee they can get away...
I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.
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Originally posted by Delirium
Generally, the higher they fly the less they can do with it.
Too often, they come screaming in a 450+ias, overshoot, attempt to turn like mack truck at those speeds and die. Otherwise (and most 190s are guilty of this) they make one 500ias HO attempt and extend more than 6k out.
ACM in AH is becoming more and more of 'One pass, haul ass' with maybe a HO attempt somewhere inbetween. Alt is just more of a guarantee they can get away...
I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.
Said that to someone tonight , they call it flying realistic , but in reality they would have been court-martialled.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
I'm not gonna fly into a zone that has alot of enemies in it with little to no friendlies and come racing across the deck or even sit at 12 to 15k so I can get jumped by a group of 3 or 4 just to please the community.
Try it. You might learn to fight. ;)
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I'm not gonna fly into a zone that has alot of enemies in it with little to no friendlies and come racing across the deck or even sit at 12 to 15k so I can get jumped by a group of 3 or 4
Hehe....
I do it in a Ki-61 all the time...usually at 8-10k though...
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Originally posted by Delirium
Generally, the higher they fly the less they can do with it.
Too often, they come screaming in a 450+ias, overshoot, attempt to turn like mack truck at those speeds and die. Otherwise (and most 190s are guilty of this) they make one 500ias HO attempt and extend more than 6k out.
ACM in AH is becoming more and more of 'One pass, haul ass' with maybe a HO attempt somewhere inbetween. Alt is just more of a guarantee they can get away...
I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.
There are a select few who know what to do with altitude and can consistantly make shots at 450 ias. ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by jamusta
I am one who used to complain about alt monkeys. I would hardly ever fly above say 12k. Most times I would be around 8k. In my recent quest to crush the horde I have had to fly 20k+ to engage them. I have found that the majority fly that high because it grants them safe passage to their target. Most dont fly that high to have an advantage. I have been flying that high for a couple of weeks and now have the trend down pack. I find that they are unable to fight at that alt. The thin air causes them to stall. The majority will just dive away. Those who are at 25k will simply fly past you. Those that are willing to engage start flopping around, but that is the minority.
If you are gonna fly that high learn to fight that high...
Maybe a new movement is in order.
Like from Al Bundy... No MA'AM
Men Against Alt Monkeys
Your Hoard busting pack is a joke.
The reason the high alt fighters were stalling is because 1. they were on climbout and/or 2 they are heavy laided with ordnance. If yall think you are going to "force the hoard into furballs" and forget landgrabbing your sadly mistaken. They will always find another way around you hoard. Its just the way it is. (Mister big idea's).
regards.
Originally posted by Delirium
I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.
1. It's not. and
2. They wouldn't
This "Game" is absolutly nothing like WWll. And to even try to make a remote comparison of the pilots behavior in Ah2 vs WWll is a ridiculas notion. If these players were the cowards you claim they are, they wouldnt even play Aces High. I believe that when most players leave the ground with bombs they have a particu;ar mission in mind and plan to do what ever it takes to complete said mission. No they are not interested in acomadating the "Fighter pilot" at alt...hell...why do you think they climb that high? Because they want to insure that they complete the mission they set out to do.
And further more the WW11 pilots had no intention on taking rediculas chances. They flew their missions to the T. More importantly the flew their AC at Alts and Speeds they were designed for. And most importantly. Nowhere in any theater of battle was the entire WW11 plane set fighting against each other.
The reason for the behavior you are discribing is the fact that the AC involved in the engagments are usally very unmatched.
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There is no land grab at 20K+ and the strat/bomber element is lost......... plus boimber formations of b24's or b17's in AH can defend them selves pretty well
Hence there is no reason to stay at 20K during combat.......there is nothing at 20K to defend / attack.
The P47 et al then revert to latter WWII ground attack roles rather than the high alt escort of 43.
The only time I am up there with any purpose (in a fighter) is in an A8 with 30mm buff hunting.............. elsewise I have climbed up there whilst afk or used alt to get my jabo to target
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Originally posted by Delirium
but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.
tooooooooooo many movies
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shubert im not much for these kind of arguments but something strikes me about how you enjoy "tool shed killing" and how you like to play "realistic" There are many other flight sims that support a much more realistic bombing element. In ah bombing and base taking are the most "gamey" aspects to this game/sim.
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Man this Horse is Dead! Been Dead, but keep beating on it fellas it might get up and win the Derby.
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Yep Dipstick I don't know how to fly at all. All of you Aces whoop me everyday.
Stick to your Air Quake you seem to enjoy it.
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I like flying high, not because I had a problem with trying to mix it up, but it does mean that I usually made my intended target with all my ordnance and without taking any damage on the way and since everyone was down low 15K or less and after dropping (if in a fighter/bomber) I could either join in the fun and games or head back for another load and try it all over again.
I like running bombers B17's, Lancasters to name a few and I found with the older sight running at 30,000 feet plus gave me more time to properly calibrate and allowed me a couple of runs at a target, quite often at heights near 40,000 feet I was left alone to get it right, so to speak.
I am here to play my game and work with those of like minds and not make the mistake of playing someone elses game or being tricked or maneuverd into thier style of play and if that upsets some of you, oh well........:D
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Man, the attitudes of some people on this game are sickening.
I fly at whatever altitude is optimal for the situation... If I'm going on an attack run, I'll stay at around 4,500 feet. If I'm going in for a furball, 7,500 feet. If I'm going on a bomber run, then at least 25,000 feet is necessary. If I'm going a long distance in a late-war fighter (P-51D for example), I'll go to 33,000 feet.
The low-altitude furballers in this game scream of "cowardice" when a pilot takes his Spitfire up to 15,000 feet... Yet if they weren't cowards, they'd engage said Spitfire at said altitude. The intelligent, calculated pilot surveys his surroundings and acts accordingly, using multiple tactics (BnZ, cherry picking, etc) rather than just one (turning as fast as you can). The advantages of altitude are very clear. What isn't clear is why many refuse to fly up there.
It might have something to do with patience (or lack thereof). It could also have something to do with the fact that most really don't know how to do anything aside from turning in tight circles in superior low-altitude fighters (Spit 5, Lavochkins, Yaks).
I think I've made myself clear... And for you bomber "pilots" who don't go above 2,000 feet, I'll say this: Learn how to fly the damn bombers up high where they're supposed to be.
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Originally posted by Fruda
Man, the attitudes of some people on this game are sickening.
I fly at whatever altitude is optimal for the situation... If I'm going on an attack run, I'll stay at around 4,500 feet. If I'm going in for a furball, 7,500 feet. If I'm going on a bomber run, then at least 25,000 feet is necessary. If I'm going a long distance in a late-war fighter (P-51D for example), I'll go to 33,000 feet.
The low-altitude furballers in this game scream of "cowardice" when a pilot takes his Spitfire up to 15,000 feet... Yet if they weren't cowards, they'd engage said Spitfire at said altitude. The intelligent, calculated pilot surveys his surroundings and acts accordingly, using multiple tactics (BnZ, cherry picking, etc) rather than just one (turning as fast as you can). The advantages of altitude are very clear. What isn't clear is why many refuse to fly up there.
It might have something to do with patience (or lack thereof). It could also have something to do with the fact that most really don't know how to do anything aside from turning in tight circles in superior low-altitude fighters (Spit 5, Lavochkins, Yaks).
Blasphemer DIE!!! We all know damn well air combat in its pure form is all about getting low and slow and turning as tightly as possible, around and around in lil' circles 'cause at 100 ft the fight is basically a 2 dimensional merry-go-round! Any other approach is not air combat at all but some bastardized form of cheating, patience to get alt?!?! Bah humbug, they just get altitude so they can run from my mighty Spit5!
We all know from history those F4u and F6F pilots in WWII loved to turn with Japanese Zero's and Niki's! Only a bloody, gutless coward in an F4U or F6F would use altitude, superior climb rate, firepower and good gunnery to destroy the more agile aircraft! ......;)
Zazen
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All I am saying is this, Why waste your time climbing to 20k and you are in a 190 or P51 if you sre just going to dive away at the first sign of danger. If you are heavy and are trying to reach a target do what you have to to get there. But if you are in a light fighter then fight B&Z T&B whatever just dont dive away.
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Lol Zazen, you're on my good side now :) .
And, I'll say this: In the Ta-152, I've been killed once. That one death was because I went on a moronic rampage... I began to dive on an airfield and an Ostwind got me. However, every other time I've flown the bird, I've had great success. It's the perfect altitude fighter: Up high, it accelerates like mad, turns on a dime (relatively speaking), and holds "E" quite well.
Diving is another thing. It retains dive speed like nothing else. This is why I have such success in this plane --- I climb to about 22,300 feet, get speed, dive in and get a few kills, then climb back to around 20,000 feet. Not one plane has ever caught me when I do this. I usually get around 560 after I level from a dive, then after I strafe for a bit, I get around 480, so I climb. And the 152 climbs very nicely in this situation.
How I love the 152. It's truly under-rated in the AH community. It really does deserve more than just a select few pilots.
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Originally posted by jamusta
No we will have even more people flying high for no reason to avoid fighting
Why because they are afraid of you or anyone else for that matter? Paaleese. I can't even buy the "Cant find a fight" malarkey i hear all the time. There are solid hordes on all sides every frikin night.... and yous guys "Cant find a fight" :rolleyes: What people are saying with this statment is that they cant find a favorable fight. So you called for a "Horde against the Horde" thingy where you can feel safety in numbers. Now who’s swinging their purse? Hint: If you want a fight? Simply look at the map and find the big red bardar that the Rooks or the Bishops are emitting, roll up your sleeves and dig in! Big Boy
PS. My money say's that once you elitist have driven the said "horde" back to their base. You will proceed to de-ack their field and vulch them till there are no more willing to try and takeoff from said field.
Sounds like you’ve been tag teamed one too many times. See a therapist, you’ll feel better. :aok
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Right on MugZ!
Yeah, what he siad.
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Since no one really dies, and you get a free plane every time you want to, why not mix it up a bit when the opportunity arises?
That's where the 'realistic' flying argument goes right out the window as a comparison. No one really dies. There is no risk. So what if you get hammered by someone better then you. Chalk it up to experience, grab a new plane and keep trying. Chances are you'll get better :)
Dan/Slack
Still dying at an alarming rate but enjoying myself.
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Mugz you have know clue of any sort of reality. This is a game. I could care less about being shot down because I can just up again. I dont need to feel safe in numbers such as yourself. I fly alone the most of the time. My squad is small and we dont mind mixing it up even when out numbered. We are always in the horde.
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Originally posted by eilif
shubert im not much for these kind of arguments but something strikes me about how you enjoy "tool shed killing" and how you like to play "realistic" There are many other flight sims that support a much more realistic bombing element. In ah bombing and base taking are the most "gamey" aspects to this game/sim.
None of them have anything like the team play element, which is what really drives me. It's not the killing and capturing of bases as much as the comraderie. That's why I am so down on the "inDUHvidualists". Me-first-ism is all I see them do, they would knock over their own granny to get a kill, and allow their little sister to be gang raped if they thought there was nothing in it for them to intervene.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Since no one really dies, and you get a free plane every time you want to, why not mix it up a bit when the opportunity arises?
That's where the 'realistic' flying argument goes right out the window as a comparison. No one really dies. There is no risk. So what if you get hammered by someone better then you. Chalk it up to experience, grab a new plane and keep trying. Chances are you'll get better :)
Dan/Slack
Still dying at an alarming rate but enjoying myself.
Get better at what? Fighting close to the ground? No thanks. I'd rather get better at winning the map.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Get better at what? Fighting close to the ground? No thanks. I'd rather get better at winning the map.
Well, you could start there. Just pick one thing at a time and work on it for a while.
If you ever reach something resembling competency in at least one area, then maybe you can go on to step two.
You might start with controlling your text tantrums or at least keep them on your squad channel.
Practice, practice , practice. :D
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Shubert, do you understand that furballing with squadmates and friends also results in comraderie? If you're furballing in a large mess with tons of friendlies and tons of enemies, few are knocking over granny to get the kill. If anything, most fight like mad to stay alive and to keep their friends alive.
In this context, teamwork and winging become essential elements of fun and success. If you enjoy jabo, that's great. But your rationale for enjoying it also applies to many other elements of Aces High that you refuse to try.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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My squad almost 90 percent of the time will get to 20k as our cruising alt and sometimes higher. This is because our planes of choice are the D11,25, and 40 P47s.
This is where the big radial flew the best.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Shubert, do you understand that furballing with squadmates and friends also results in comraderie? If you're furballing in a large mess with tons of friendlies and tons of enemies, few are knocking over granny to get the kill. If anything, most fight like mad to stay alive and to keep their friends alive.
In this context, teamwork and winging become essential elements of fun and success. If you enjoy jabo, that's great. But your rationale for enjoying it also applies to many other elements of Aces High that you refuse to try.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Oh, no lev--I furball sometimes. As I see it, it's the guys who insist that the ONLY way to play the game is furballing who are limiting themselves. And I have never seen this cooperation or team tactics of which you speak in a furball. It looks like one big circular conga line.
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Originally posted by rshubert
And I have never seen this cooperation or team tactics of which you speak in a furball. It looks like one big circular conga line.
This is probably why you don't like furballs very much, and it explains why you do not appear to understand their appeal. The most successful furballers are those who keep their countrymen alive, not those who allow them to die so they can achieve a kill at any cost.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I think what annoys people is the 20K+ Ponys/Lalas/D9s etc whos only aim is to get to the base, dive on the runway, vulch, go over the top rinse and repeat.
Until either 1) They get tagged or 2) Manage to escape and land their vulched kills to cacophony of WTG's on C:200.
No problems with guys flying at 20k+ to get ord to target, or because thats were the plane operates best, it's the alt for vulching that is the highest form of dweebery.
There is a couple of HIGHLY 'ranked' pilots who specialise in the alt for vulch method.
Yes - You know who you are.
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^
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^
^
He says it best.
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I just don't see why someone would spend XX minutes to climb to 20k to deliver their ordinance and then die when they could just spend X minutes climbing to 10k, come in from a different approach, drop their ordinance, and then die.
Then again I don't see why I bother climbing to 15kish in a FW when I know I'm going to be on the deck in 2 minutes anyway. I must just like the extra time to enjoy the new A8 skins.
Crazy stuff.
:)
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Too bad we can't arrange a large air wing duel at 30K over the map. 20+ planes to a side. 51D, 47D40, D9 Dora, PJ, G10. Set a hard deck 18k. Up 2 sectors away climb to 30k, go level get speed then engage. And we find out if anyone knows how to big wing fight at 30k.
We can complain like this thread, or we can go find out what will happen at 30k and have a unique experience.:)
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Originally posted by Vudak
I just don't see why someone would spend XX minutes to climb to 20k to deliver their ordinance and then die when they could just spend X minutes climbing to 10k, come in from a different approach, drop their ordinance, and then die.
Then again I don't see why I bother climbing to 15kish in a FW when I know I'm going to be on the deck in 2 minutes anyway. I must just like the extra time to enjoy the new A8 skins.
Crazy stuff.
:)
I think I am to blame for this and people like me. Back in the fuel pork-a-holic days of AH1 I resolved to take matters into my own hands after having my 19 millionth great furball ruined. My favorite way of doing this was to hang somewhere in between my field and the enemy field at 15-18k and bushwack the heavy porking fighters inbound who were generally 3-8k below me before they could get close enough to even attempt to pork my field. A few guys doing this had great effect in that very few if any porkers got thru. The only resort they were left with that had any chance of success was then the low-alt dive bombing heavy buff formations...We all know how popular that was.
The reason having a little altitude on these bastards is better in this situation is because, due to your position and altitude they tend to ignore you, assuming you are a fellow pork-a-holic on the way to their field. If you come at them co-alt they will invariably nose down and dive for your field quite content to pork n' auger, causing you to have to blow altitude to race them to the deck before they can pork. Better to conserve your altitude for his buddies who are no doubt close behind him. With the bushwack method, they either notice you and dismiss youas no immediate threat, or notice you too late trying some have assed evasive usually still heavy as they are suprised you came down on them at all.
The net effect, was either they gave up the pork-a-holic routine in fighters and became low-alt buff formation dive bombing dweebs or came in faster and higher in an attempt to be successfull...In AH2, with dive bombing buffs a thing of the past for the most part, the wannabe pork-a-holics must resort to the tried and true method of spending 20 minutes getting to 25K to ensure they can successfully pork n' auger...
Zazen
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All I am saying is this, Why waste your time climbing to 20k and you are in a 190 or P51 if you sre just going to dive away at the first sign of danger? If you are heavy and are trying to reach a target do what you have to to get there. But if you are in a light fighter then fight B&Z T&B whatever just dont dive away.
Funny how all the guys crying fowl have not answered this question, when in fact this was your point to begin with. I think the guys getting all bent out of shape are a little insecure about the way they fly.
I have been flying that high for a couple of weeks and now have the trend down pack. I find that they are unable to fight at that alt. The thin air causes them to stall. The majority will just dive away. Those who are at 25k will simply fly past you. Those that are willing to engage start flopping around, but that is the minority.
If you are gonna fly that high learn to fight that high...
This thread was a harmless appeal/question about why people fly high and don't fight? All the guys talking about ord etc are getting their panties bunched up for nothing.:aok
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Mars I'd have to say they run for one of 2 reasons. One they aren't capable and are infact hidding at altitude to avoid contacts. Two, they might be carrying ord and are trying to avoid the fight so they can get to a target. I'd have to think that if they are carrying ord and are trying to get to a target it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't capable of fighting they just aren't choosing to.
I've come across similiar situations with people in the MA. I don't blame them for nosing over if they have ord to equal my e state or try to get a better e state so they can get their bombs off. I'd do the same in that situation. If at anytime I knew running wasn't going to be an option I'd jettison my ord and fight. People who do this without ord and are purely hidding from a fight annoy me.
In order to learn you have to tangle with the enemy sometime whether or not you have an advantage. Though you may very well have the ability to run and survive. There will come a time when you won't be able to and duking it out will be your only option. If you've always avoided such situations though the probability of survival would be lower than if you had gotten in a scuffle like this from time to time. They are only hurting themselves in the long run.
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No doubt about it Cobra I agree with you on all counts.
I think this thread was directly addressed to the guys in your first category.
I don't think anyone in here has a problem with the guys carrying ord, trying to push by, but some in this thread feel that is the issue, trying to turn this into a furball thing, when it's not. Sure maybe they are trolling who knows :D.
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Originally posted by mars01
This thread was a harmless appeal/question about why people fly high and don't fight? All the guys talking about ord etc are getting their panties bunched up for nothing.:aok
Yah, right. And my real name is Ned the Naive. The "insecure" guys are the ones who feel the need to go after the other guy's game style, judging whether or not the enemy plane should have engaged them.
Can you tell from 2k away what I have hanging under my plane? I can't. Maybe 1K? Nope. So how do you know the guy running from you is heavy or not? I will almost guarantee any "horde" you run into is heavy.
As I have posted before, if I drop my ord to engage you, O wonderous Knight of the Skies, you already have won the fight. If I am up on a sweep, I will engage. It's really that simple. Are there guys that do it another way? Sure there are. Do I feel the need to tell them what is "right" and what is "wrong"?
No.
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What's wrong with flying at High Altitude?
When i do decide to take up an aircraft my Hardeck is no lower than 10-K.
I believe that all the good fights,and all the good pilots are above 10-K.
The first squad that i ever joined was the 880 Fleet Air Arm.
Great bunch of pilots,2 in particular Warloc;TheBug-
told me one valubale key to this game.
"Altitude=Life"
"life = Energy"
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LOL,i gotta quit smokin bud before i post on here.
"Altitude=Energy"
"Energy=Life"
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Originally posted by 1Klink
I believe that all the good fights,and all the good pilots are above 10-K.
Umm, I wouldn't go THAT far...
Zazen
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Originally posted by jamusta
All I am saying is this, Why waste your time climbing to 20k and you are in a 190 or P51
May be it is not a waste of time, it depends on the distance to target. For example, D9 or P51D on military power will do about 60 mph more at 20k than sealevel.
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Originally posted by 1Klink
I believe that all the good fights,and all the good pilots are above 10-K.
<-- Scratching head to figure out a pilot I've fought against, that I'd consider good, who has a MAX alt of 10k normally.... Maybe one or two at most out of dozens?
Although I will agree with you that there are good fights above 10k, if only because you are less likely to be swamped.
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Originally posted by 1Klink
LOL,i gotta quit smokin bud before i post on here.
"Altitude=Energy"
"Energy=Life"
We've had this debate a thousand times over the years. There is no denying that those two equations are true. There's a very good reason service ceiling was an engineered for trait in combat fighter aircraft in WW2 as was top speed. As the war progressed planes got faster and/or gained the ability to fly higher. There's not one example I can think of, maybe others with more thorough knowledge can illustrate one, of a late war 'air superiority' fighter aircraft (as opposed to a fighter designed for or resigned to primarily a ground attack role) that was specifically designed and engineered to fly slower AND lower than its predecessors (presumably in exchange for a better sustained turn-rate).
The paradox in this debate derives from dichotomous opinions about what quintessentially defines air combat. Is it the turn and burn on the deck, riding the edge of the stall until you give up an angle or go splat? Or is it the role of airiel predator searching out prey at the optimal altitude for your chosen ride and situation looking for an advantage to exploit and a victim to vanquish? That's pretty much the core of it. Some, mix it up with a little of both depending on the situation, but for the most part fighter jocks are in one of those two camps.
So, there's the role-players that endeavor to kill and survive and the Yank n' bankers who quest to ride the edge in whatever plane they choose to fly final outcome be damned. Neither camp is wrong, it's their nickel, no one can tell you what is fun for you, you must discover that for yourself. One thing is for certain however, if how high, fast, slow, or low others fly chaps your bellybutton then you need to step back and ask yourself why. People are going to do what they find most fun, either adapt to them or avoid them, but no amount of gnashing of teeth and berating them will change them, of this I can assure you.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Vudak
<-- Scratching head to figure out a pilot I've fought against, that I'd consider good, who has a MAX alt of 10k normally.... Maybe one or two at most out of dozens?
Although I will agree with you that there are good fights above 10k, if only because you are less likely to be swamped.
Yea, that brings up a good point. The neverending cries from people who want 1 vs. 1's or have a 1 vs. 1 broken up in the MA, but consistantly fly around or in hordes low and slow. If you want a good 1 vs. 1, come up high where u can isolate a single enemy and force it upon him.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yea, that brings up a good point. The neverending cries from people who want 1 vs. 1's or have a 1 vs. 1 broken up in the MA, but consistantly fly around or in hordes low and slow. If you want a good 1 vs. 1, come up high where u can isolate a single enemy and force it upon him.
Zazen
Jabo fighters were never the point Jamusta was making.
It has "generally" been my experience, that the types of people flying at 20K are not interested in a 1-1 fight. They are there to use that advantage to prey on lower planes, engaged planes, buffs etc etc. ie people that can't fight back. They will not engage without significant odds/advantage in their favour.
They are taking the "realism" approach to these sims , and will try to prevent their virtual death at all costs. To enter a 1-1 co-alt engagment is unthinkable to them, as the chances of dying may well approximate 50%, could even be higher, would you gamble with your life on the toss of a coin ?
Of course I could be wrong and they might just all be timid tax accountants - who would know ;)
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Originally posted by Redd
Jabo fighters were never the point Jamusta was making.
It has "generally" been my experience, that the types of people flying at 20K are not interested in a 1-1 fight. They are there to use that advantage to prey on lower planes, engaged planes, buffs etc etc. ie people that can't fight back. They will not engage without significant odds/advantage in their favour.
They are taking the "realism" approach to these sims , and will try to prevent their virtual death at all costs. To enter a 1-1 co-alt engagment is unthinkable to them, as the chances of dying may well approximate 50%, could even be higher, would you gamble with your life on the toss of a coin ?
Of course I could be wrong and they might just all be timid tax accountants - who would know ;)
What you are saying may be true to a point. But, not for the reason you are stating. The problem with it is, if you are in a plane that is the ideal ' airiel predator' it is likely fast, it is likely well gunned, it is likely pretty full on fuel and it is likely relatively poor at turning, both instantaneously and sustained. This lack of manueverability is further exacerbated by relatively poorer performance in that area at altitude. So, unless you are engaged 1 vs. 1 by the exact same plane, with the exact same E, with a similiar fuel load you are at a severe disadvantage in at least one key area which cannot be negated easily. Combine that with good guns with alot of ammo and you see the margin for error slip to nothingness.
Your typical TnB plane down low is not faced with this same set of issues. There is a wide selection of TnB planes with comparable manueverability. Down low, planes manuever at their best, they are likely carrying 50% gas or less by the time they engage, and they typically have less lethal armament and far less ammunition to spend. By virtue of the fact manueverablity is intrinsically defensive a TnB pilot down low can make a few mistakes and wiggle his way back to even or better fairly easily against an opponent with comparable skill. Combine that with the fact that the average TnB pilot has only to invest 1/3 of the time in a hop to potentially get good results, that makes it worth a gamble for a single kill. A single kill is not even worth the time it takes the 'airiel predator' to climb to optimum operational altitude.
So, it's not necessarily true that the 'predator' with some altitude is disinclined to engage 1 vs. 1 it's that one of any of those factors mentioned can handicap him so the outcome is all but pre-determined in favor of one plane or another prior to the merge.
For example, say you are at 20k in a P51, you have yet to engage, you still have some auxillary fuel left and are engaged by a co-alt P47. Well, right away are in a very tough spot. Likely the P47 has less fuel than you do (ponies are pigs with aux fuel remaining), you know he has a firepower advantage, so one tiny snap shot is all he needs, he is well armored so you will likely require multiple successfull passes to bring him down. He has a performance edge in roll-rate and acceleration especially in a dive and he can out zoom climb you 2 to 1. So, while I will never say this isn't a doable E-fight from the pony's perspective, it's unwise at best, your margin for error as the P51 is zero, the risk/reward ratio is just not sufficient to engage in this spot given the time already invested in the hop. This is typical of your average encounter at altitude.
So, in summary, it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges, that is why this topic always splits into camps, the focus of the two groups is dichotomous from the ground up, literally and figuratively speaking. As the airiel predator you are looking for, at the very least, a multi-kill sortie (4+ kills in most planes as most E-fighters have massive ammoloads unlike TnB planes) for your time invested. You expect to live if possible and you will have to invest a substantial amount of time to do so. As the TNB pilot, you get into the fight quickly, you don't want to carry the gas to loiter around for long periods as it hampers your one main asset, manueverability, you want to engage, kill a single or a couple of foes individually if possible and either return to base or die attempting to get more pelts. Both ways have their charm and appeal, where we run into problems is trying to take the 'value system' instrinsic to one camp and in a judgemental way super-impose it upon the other. Usually those values (what you want from your hop) are in direct opposition. Even if those values were the same as far as 1 vs. 1's are concerned, the E-fighter at altitude has far more mitigating variables to concern himself with than the TnB pilot who can fly 3 of his hops in the time it takes the E-Fighter to fly one of his for an equal kill total.
Zazen
P.S. Redd, that's why I said. "If you want a good 1 vs. 1, come up high where u can isolate a single enemy and force it upon him. " Because, if you are up there, you will have to also be in a faster plane that is good at altitude, it's not necessary that the other guy WANT a 1 vs. 1. You are in a position to FORCE it upon him if you so choose in most cases.
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Please check to see if the horse is still breathing...I think you guys killed it a while back...geesh!
Thorns
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Yah, right. And my real name is Ned the Naive. The "insecure" guys are the ones who feel the need to go after the other guy's game style, judging whether or not the enemy plane should have engaged them. ... Drolll ...
Do I feel the need to tell them what is "right" and what is "wrong"?
No.
See ^^^ Big wad in huberts pants where his panties are all bunched up lolh.:rofl
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Originally posted by Zazen13
the focus of the two groups is dichotomous from the ground up, literally and figuratively speaking
Ok..
I've exhausted my wittle "punch in words and get a definition" thingys..
...I think the wittle thing broke.
Waaaaaay too many beeg words there.
I'll research the hidden meaning of those multisylable words toomallly.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
. Even if those values were the same as far as 1 vs. 1's are concerned, the E-fighter at altitude has far more mitigating variables to concern himself with than the TnB pilot who can fly 3 of his hops in the time it takes the E-Fighter to fly one of his for an equal kill total.
Zazen
P.S. Redd, that's why I said. "If you want a good 1 vs. 1, come up high where u can isolate a single enemy and force it upon him. " Because, if you are up there, you will have to also be in a faster plane that is good at altitude, it's not necessary that the other guy WANT a 1 vs. 1. You are in a position to FORCE it upon him if you so choose in most cases.
I fly in both camps Zaz , I like Spit5 for furballing and F4u for E-Fighting and the Hellcat for somewhere in the middle (usual ride).
But even in an F4u (or 51 or 47) in E-Fighter mode I would never contemplate running from a Co-E fight against another E-Fighter, each engagement is potentially a great fight, win lose or draw.
The ones I can't understand , are the ones that run/dive flee , at the slightest hint of a good fight.
(I'm not talking about you Zaz btw , we have never tangled at alt - suspect out timezones are way different)
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..and come up with a viable reply.
Gonna buy a new word thingy :D
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Originally posted by Redd
I would never contemplate running from a Co-E fight against another E-Fighter, each engagement is potentially a great fight, win lose or draw.
A quote from the stone tablets.
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Originally posted by Redd
I fly in both camps Zaz , I like Spit5 for furballing and F4u for E-Fighting and the Hellcat for somewhere in the middle (usual ride).
But even in an F4u (or 51 or 47) in E-Fighter mode I would never contemplate running from a Co-E fight against another E-Fighter, each engagement is potentially a great fight, win lose or draw.
The ones I can't understand , are the ones that run/dive flee , at the slightest hint of a good fight.
(I'm not talking about you Zaz btw , we have never tangled at alt - suspect out timezones are way different)
The F4U is an excellent ride to accept 1 vs. 1 engagements with at altitude, it is vastly improved in AH2. It turns better than almost any other E fighter type, and out-rolls all but Fw190s and it's quite durable. You would only be lacking in the lethality and speed department. Once you engaged you would not have the disengage option. I never fault anyone for disengaging when they are at a disadvantage be it initial or after the merge, that is one of the luxuries a speed ride affords.
Alot of people just disengage to reset and re-merge if you have the patience to wait for them to regain their composure. This can be an interesting scenario although it can be a protracted fight, not like the on the deck merry-go-rounds which last 30 seconds or less on average where neither plane has the disengage option usually. The only drawback your F4U has, which is likely the source of your frustration is that your lack of speed makes it unlikely you can FORCE a 1 vs. 1 with just about any plane you are likely to find at altitude.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
The F4U is an excellent ride to accept 1 vs. 1 engagements with at altitude, it is vastly improved in AH2. It turns better than almost any other E fighter type, and out-rolls all but Fw190s and it's quite durable. You would only be lacking in the lethality and speed department. Once you engaged you would not have the disengage option. I never fault anyone for disengaging when they are at a disadvantage be it initial or after the merge, that is one of the luxuries a speed ride affords.
Alot of people just disengage to reset and re-merge if you have the patience to wait for them to regain their composure. This can be an interesting scenario although it can be a protracted fight, not like the on the deck merry-go-rounds which last 30 seconds or less on average where neither plane has the disengage option usually. The only drawback your F4U has, which is likely the source of your frustration is that your lack of speed makes it unlikely you can FORCE a 1 vs. 1 with just about any plane you are likely to find at altitude.
Zazen
That's why I like to take the - 4 , keeps the runners honest, and it's amazing how fights seem to follow that perk icon around ;)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
The only drawback your F4U has, which is likely the source of your frustration is that your lack of speed makes it unlikely you can FORCE a 1 vs. 1 with just about any plane you are likely to find at altitude.
my F4U must be bugged then, my F4U-1, -C,-D hardly ever has a problem forcing the issue upon most any plane 1 vs 1 unless it is one of the Aces High CODs, I seldomly run into above 8k alt. Then anything over 12K alt is pretty much a gimme 1 on 1, but is different 2 or 3 on 1
WAIT: read my forcing the issue as really saying suckering them to fight me.........but ya know even when the dang running P51 with a 4k alt advantage runs for a full sector diagonally, if I break off at anytime he sure as heck turns to try and buzz me, if I turn to him he trys that PERFECTED HO maneuver, then runs chase is on, I break off, rinse repeat, usually get em on 2nd or 3rd set though......
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Originally posted by nopoop
Ok..
I've exhausted my wittle "punch in words and get a definition" thingys..
...I think the wittle thing broke.
Waaaaaay too many beeg words there.
I'll research the hidden meaning of those multisylable words toomallly.
I'm sure you're not the only one who stumbles reading Zaz's postings :D
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
my F4U must be bugged then, my F4U-1, -C,-D hardly ever has a problem forcing the issue upon most any plane 1 vs 1 unless it is one of the Aces High CODs, I seldomly run into above 8k alt. Then anything over 12K alt is pretty much a gimme 1 on 1, but is different 2 or 3 on 1
Maybe, not sure how you could possibly prevent a P51, Fw190D9, 109-G10, or P47D40 from disengaging or refusing to engage at altitude (20k'ish). They have you beat in the speed department by an average of almost 100 kias.
Zazen
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ah shucks, you replyed before I could edit it..oh well!
edit: If I can force them to engage ( by breaking off and let them come to me, btw most do this everytime), once I make them miss on the pass and I am lucky enough to get a ping they panic, pull up to hard, flat turn, or dive...now that 109G10 isn't very good in the dive in most hands. the Hog holds on pretty good chase with the P51 and P47 in dive giving up ground slowly.....190d9 forget about it , if he don't break or turn or go vertical I won't catch them......
but remember, the whole key for me is faking my breaking off to draw them to me, then again you be amazed at how few can tell anothers E-state regardless if you Co-alt or they have a slight alt advantage on you.....
EXCEPT for them darn AH CODS!........
someone slap Zazen with a smelling fish please....he knows all this already....:)
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
ah shucks, you replyed before I could edit it..oh well!
Sorry, I'm watching Seinfield and refreshing the board for replies every couple of minutes. heh
Zazen
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
WAIT: read my forcing the issue as really saying suckering them to fight me.........but ya know even when the dang running P51 with a 4k alt advantage runs for a full sector diagonally, if I break off at anytime he sure as heck turns to try and buzz me, if I turn to him he trys that PERFECTED HO maneuver, then runs chase is on, I break off, rinse repeat, usually get em on 2nd or 3rd set though......
Yes, at altitude, because planes are less manuverable innately and by virtue of their altitude, gunnery is usually the deciding factor. Unlike a turnfight where you can get in the 'saddle', that almost never happens up high with E fighters. The shots you get are usually forward quarter, very brief snap or tracking shots. It makes sense as the fight is in the vertical, in the vertical almost every manuever is nose to nose, as opposed to nose to tail which is prevalent on the deck with TnB planes, where aft quarter or 90 degree crossing shots are typical.
Zazen
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True it is hard to commit a guy to a 1 on 1, especially I have found at altitude, so what I usually do if I smell a runner is just give the guy my 6 right off the bat to bait him, then smack him after a quick reverse. Its great, they think some noob is just flying around like a dolt, they smell an easy kill then all of a sudden WHAM they're in the tower like WTF staring at their monitor wondering what the heck just happened :D
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I tryed a couple of them big words in my Definition grabber. They both came back saying " Don`t worry about it Hoss".
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Originally posted by Stang
True it is hard to commit a guy to a 1 on 1, especially I have found at altitude, so what I usually do if I smell a runner is just give the guy my 6 right off the bat to bait him, then smack him after a quick reverse. Its great, they think some noob is just flying around like a dolt, they smell an easy kill then all of a sudden WHAM they're in the tower like WTF staring at their monitor wondering what the heck just happened :D
Yup, Stang, I've seen you do that plenty of times. Often people make the mistake and assume if you are high and on the way to their base that you are heavy, they will carelessly hang there trying to climb up to you. You can wait untill their airspeed is low reverse and nail them before they even know what hit them.
Zazen
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Think so? Imagine if historical flyers ran 6k away and left their countrymen to deal with the enemies instead.
This is a game, but some of the behaviors in AH are complete cowardice, and I stand by that comment.
Originally posted by Tilt
tooooooooooo many movies
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Think so? Imagine if historical flyers ran 6k away and left their countrymen to deal with the enemies instead.
This is a game, but some of the behaviors in AH are complete cowardice, and I stand by that comment.
No doubt. I think is was GooseCH and myself last night were up at a field. There was a 38 prolly about 20k, he dove in once or twice would blow the merge totally then extend out and back up to 20k.
So fine you may be thinking he didn't want to get involved in a 2 v1 (radish) . Well we followed him and in comes an ememy Typhoon. Do you think the radish 38 came down and helped the typhoon? You guessed it he didn't. I ended up RTB out of boredom, while Goose stuck it out not shure how far he chased him.
This guy definitely put the Bore in Bore and Zoom.
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Originally posted by jamusta
Some people never will get it. I give up!!!!!
I know that feeling. It is important (in my humble opinion) to not give up hope though.
I have had quite a few guys that once in a 1 on 1 situation in the Dueling Arena they begin to open thier eyes and realize just how much they have been missing.
Morpheus is a prime example. Remember how you played before the DA Morph? Once he realized what he was really missing it was a total revalation for him. As it was for me a year or two earler.
Keep it up Jam! They will come around one at a time.
c yas up.... Dave
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Originally posted by Redd
That's why I like to take the - 4 , keeps the runners honest, and it's amazing how fights seem to follow that perk icon around ;)
For a while I was into taking the TA152 up to about 25k and looking for dogfights. Its not hard to find them in that ride.
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Midnight once suggested oxygen masks be integrated into ah, this would fix alot of problems.
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Originally posted by Delirium
Think so? Imagine if historical flyers ran 6k away and left their countrymen to deal with the enemies instead.
This is a game, but some of the behaviors in AH are complete cowardice, and I stand by that comment.
Historical fliers didn't die 4 times a night. They didn't deliberatiely go into situations where they were very likely (note LIKELY) to get killed. We kill more pilots here in a week than all the casualties of all the air wars in history combined!
And puh-leeeez, don't talk about cowardice or bravery. This is a game. Nobody gets hurt, and nobody earns anything real here. My cojones aren't on the line, and I certainly don't measure my manliness by how well I play this game. If you do, you may need to reevaluate your life priorities. If you have any.
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Originally posted by rshubert
They didn't deliberatiely go into situations where they were very likely (note LIKELY) to get killed.
Hmmmmmm .... ..... So your post in the other thread trying to justifiy your Kamakazee missions is based on fiction instead of the tribute you expalined?
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What next? It's starting to look like WW2 in here!
:D :aok
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It comes down to one thing and one thing only.
Each individual person pays thier 15$.
Until any of you start paying the other person's 15$,then u can tell them what to do in this GAME called Aces High!:aok
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Originally posted by rshubert
They didn't deliberatiely go into situations where they were very likely (note LIKELY) to get killed
They were ORDERED too.
I find it interesting as to how a virtual flyer here, in trying to emulate, or get a feeling of emersion in a historical since of "what it was really like" in this game makes a statement like that.
Any pilot in their right mind when givin orders in the REAL world of the big W if givin the choice WOULDN'T HAVE GONE.
As a tribute to that reality, I always go where my virtual life is a balancing act. Probabilities of my survival are a toss-up.
They were ordered to places where "playing it safe" was laughable/impossible.
...but "playing it safe" which was not an option then is done here as a practice with heads held high in the nobleness of the historical experience.
That is pap.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Hmmmmmm .... ..... So your post in the other thread trying to justifiy your Kamakazee missions is based on fiction instead of the tribute you expalined?
Don't be an ass. That's a special case, and you know it. How many German kamikazes were there? Or English, or...
And the "tribute" bit is an example of irony, btw. Nothing I have said is inconsistent with my position that there are many, many ways to play this game.
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Originally posted by nopoop
They were ORDERED too.
I find it interesting as to how a virtual flyer here, in trying to emulate, or get a feeling of emersion in a historical since of "what it was really like" in this game makes a statement like that.
Any pilot in their right mind when givin orders in the REAL world of the big W if givin the choice WOULDN'T HAVE GONE.
As a tribute to that reality, I always go where my virtual life is a balancing act. Probabilities of my survival are a toss-up.
They were ordered to places where "playing it safe" was laughable/impossible.
...but "playing it safe" which was not an option then is done here as a practice with heads held high in the nobleness of the historical experience.
That is pap.
I'm not trying to get immersion into WW2 air combat. Are you? I'm playing an enjoyable game.
And do you really think that pilots were ordered to go into situations where they had a small chance of survival? The US 8th AF stopped deep penetration missions when the casualties rose to 10%. The Luftwaffe switched to night bombing when their casualties became unsustainable. There were 36000 or so Bf-109s built from 1938 to 1945. I'll bet we lost more than that last month, though I haven't checked.
Get a grip. With the exception of kamikazes, NOBODY flew to die in WW2, or any other conflict. If the tables turned, THEY RAN LIKE LITTLE GIRLS. Were they cowards? I don't think so. Did they abandon their comrades? Their comrade was running along side them.
Patton said it best: It is not your job to die for your country, it is your job to make the other poor bast*** die for HIS country.
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And do you really think that pilots were ordered to go into situations where they had a small chance of survival? The US 8th AF stopped deep penetration missions when the casualties rose to 10%. The Luftwaffe switched to night bombing when their casualties became unsustainable. There were 36000 or so Bf-109s built from 1938 to 1945. I'll bet we lost more than that last month, though I haven't checked.
Yoiur completely wrong Hubert - Read the Book Fighter Boys about the Battle of Brittian. Those guys constantly flew into unsurmountable odds and many lost their lives. They did not fly safe and most of the time flew strait into the German hordes.
No they did not fly to die, but none of them thought about dying while they were fighting. Many recount their first combat expieriance. As soon as they realized the neat puffy trails were tracers being shot at them they went throught a few split seconds of numbing debilitating fear replaced by shear survival instinct and none of the accounts started with running. Most of them fought it out to the death.
Nopoop is right. They didn't pick and choose the safests fights etc, they were told to intercept, interdict, attack and they did not thinking of anyhting else except those orders.
Now on the other hand if you take the French maybe they did. During the battle for France and the witdraw at Dunkirk, the brits had mentioned that the French Air forces didn't even up half the time and stayed on the ground.
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Originally posted by mars01
Yoiur completely wrong Hubert - Read the Book Fighter Boys about the Battle of Brittian. Those guys constantly flew into unsurmountable odds and many lost their lives. They did not fly safe and most of the time flew strait into the German hordes.
No they did not fly to die, but none of them thought about dying while they were fighting. Many recount their first combat expieriance. As soon as they realized the neat puffy trails were tracers being shot at them they went throught a few split seconds of numbing debilitating fear replaced by shear survival instinct and none of the accounts started with running. Most of them fought it out to the death.
Nopoop is right. They didn't pick and choose the safests fights etc, they were told to intercept, interdict, attack and they did not thinking of anyhting else except those orders.
Now on the other hand if you take the French maybe they did. During the battle for France and the witdraw at Dunkirk, the brits had mentioned that the French Air forces didn't even up half the time and stayed on the ground.
They flew smart, and flew to live.
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They flew smart, and flew to live.
Your wrong and many of the books that I have read about combat in WWII prove you wrong. Nice fantasy tho.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Don't be an ass. That's a special case, and you know it. How many German kamikazes were there? Or English, or...
And the "tribute" bit is an example of irony, btw. Nothing I have said is inconsistent with my position that there are many, many ways to play this game.
I think that position is already occupied by you. Well at least your assuming the position. :D
A special case? Hmmmmm....well golly gee darn, you didn`t say it was a special case.
As for the tribute part.... So it`s irony. In other words you actualy don`t hold any regard for what these pilots did for their country by giving up the lives and are simply trying to degrade them with the "Clown Cars" missions? Is that right? Your not being too clear. Here we call it dancing the dance.
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Morpheus is a prime example. Remember how you played before the DA Morph? Once he realized what he was really missing it was a total revalation for him. As it was for me a year or two earler
Yeah, not much I can really say. I was lucky enough to meet the best at the best time and have him willing to teach me.
You were untouchable man. You still can be if you'd stick around!
Forgeetabout IL2FB/IB/FGH/HY/VB///http/www.aceshighownsIL2.com and stick around!
I think I should send you the film of us winging in that furball. Man, the quotes I have from you... I couldnt stop laughing.