Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: TexMurphy on January 07, 2005, 08:39:03 AM
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Ok been trying to learn the Spit V as of late and I have one main issue. The Nikki.
It outruns me, it out turns me, it outclimbs me (below 8k) and if Im not wrong it also retains E better then I do.
Ok so obvious answer is to fight it over 8k. But that aint always the option one has.
At 8k will the climb advantage make me able to E fight the Nikki?
Below 8k? what do I do?
Tex
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
Ok been trying to learn the Spit V as of late and I have one main issue. The Nikki.
It outruns me, it out turns me, it outclimbs me (below 8k) and if Im not wrong it also retains E better then I do.
Ok so obvious answer is to fight it over 8k. But that aint always the option one has.
At 8k will the climb advantage make me able to E fight the Nikki?
Below 8k? what do I do?
Tex
Hiya Tex
get that spit turning a little better, you should be able to out turnfight a niki
I haven't had a lot of experience in the niki but I think the the spit is nimbler and rolls a little better as well , which you may be able to use.
you might be running in to some of the better niki pilots.
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The Spit V, in all intances and if flown correctly, will eat the N1K for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
If it is out turning you, I have to ask ...
Do you have the "Stall Limiter" turned on ?
Are you using flaps at the correct time ? Even without flaps, the Spit V should turn inside the N1K easily.
The N1K will out run the Spit V ...
As a matter of fact, most planes will out run the Spit V. Do not run from the N1K ... make him play in your "world" ... turn fighting. If you have some separation from the N1K, turn back into him and force him to start turning with you.
The N1K will out climb the Spit V ...
Unless you have a pocketfull of E, do not try to follow the N1K up. Turn in the opposite direction ... get some speed and E back and be prepared to turn back into him if he brings the fight back to you. Like above, try to get him into your "world".
Co-alt and Co-E, the Spit V is probably the most dangerous fighter in all of AH.
When I encounter a late war machine, that is carrying alt and E over me, I try to maintain my Spit V in its most dangerous envelope ... somewhere around 275mph.
If they make a BnZ approach, I will cause them to miss, but I will not follow them. I will continue on my heading (after the miss) and get my speed back up. If they extend slightly and turn back to attack (still with more alt and E than me), I will do the same thing again ... cause them to miss and build my speed back up while they re-think and extend. If I can continue to avoid the attacks and maintain this envelope, they will eventually bring themselves into the Spit V "world". At that point, they are in deep yogurt.
If you want to see the Spit V at its finest, go here ...
http://www.theblueknights.com/Films.html
I have watched many, if not all, of Leviathn's movies and they are invaluable for learning how to fly and get the most out of the Spit V.
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hey murph.
if th nikki is out turning you, you must be doing something wrong.
give me a call, we need to spend some time in the DA or TA.
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Thanks for the replies guys.
I dont have the stall limmiter on.
I think the reason I dont get tight into the turns is that Im not used to just how tight I can pull this plane yet. Also I dont use flaps and that is something I really have to work on and find where and when to use em. I would really appriciate it if you could help me with that in the DA, flyboy.
Tex.
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I'd guess your not doing two things....
1) working the throttle...you have to get off the gas to max out the spittie in a T&B fight....
2) Rudder....
The spitty is night and day with rudder and without, I used to spend a fair amount of time getting schooled by Lev (was DMF then) back in the TA. Rudder Rudder Rudder....
I'm also curious how well you use the "vertical oblique"...not true vertical (loop fight) but three demensional fight...if you look back thru some of the stuff I posted there is a Ki-61 vs nikki clip where he's got E and angles (climbing right up my prettythang)...anyway its a good example of using what you have...
I've got a fight between me and a pretty well flown spitty (Ki-61 vs spit (V I think)...I'll post it on this thread...maybe it'll give you some ideas. In the end he pulls a bit to hard and gets the AH2 "sink" stall....basically I got us both down the the ragged edge and he happened to crap out 1st....
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
Thanks for the replies guys.
I dont have the stall limmiter on.
I think the reason I dont get tight into the turns is that Im not used to just how tight I can pull this plane yet. Also I dont use flaps and that is something I really have to work on and find where and when to use em. I would really appriciate it if you could help me with that in the DA, flyboy.
Tex.
Also, remember that the Spit V DOES NOT want to fight fast.
You have to maintain a speed that will allow you to use your control surfaces to their maximum as humble as alluded to with use of the rudder. Using the rudder on rolls and in the vertical is of utmost importance.
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no flaps in the spit V to speak off...think I might pop em once in 100 fights. IRL they were for landing only. Sounds to me like your carrying way to much speed in your fights....the nikki will slow down faster naturally...like slapshot said the spittie is finicky about speed....rudder throttle rudder throttle rudder throttle...
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I typically use the flaps when engaged with another Spit or Zeke.
If popped at the right speed, they will get you inside real quick especially when trying to gain a deflection shot on a turning Spit/Zeke from a lead pursuit perspective ... if popped when too slow, they can make you a sitting duck.
Popping the flaps on the top of a loop gives you many more options from that point cause it will come over real quick.
I do also agree that throttle control is very important when fighting in a Spit ... its amazing what that plane will do with just throttle control only.
I tend to use the rudder mostly when in the vertical ... I find that it really bleeds serious E when in the horizontal plane and if a Spit V gets too slow, it can't get out of it own way.
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curious where you define slow...if I remember flaps come out at 160....I like spitty in the 125-175 zone (i'm almost always flying verticals of some kind...probably is why I'm all throttle & rudder...only time I'll pop flaps is for lead on a real good shot opportunity. I'm probably up higher speed wise than I think since it keeps speed so well...
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Ok done better today... won my first 1v2 fight today... vs spit and p40... also managed to live long enough through a 1v2 against another spit and a 109 till I got help and scoored one of em and RTWoodrd scooring the other..
That said.
Yes I need to work my rudder controlls. That is actually something I dont do all that much and really dont know all that well how to do. I do use em when I am in a scissor situation and need to bring my plane around fast to the other side.. but thats about it...
Some info on how to propperly use rudder would rock.
Next thing is cross axis movement. I do use alot of immels and loops. High YoYo´s I tended to use more when flying the Yak.
True multi dimentional is mostly due to enemy forcing or giving me the situation. As in me spiraling up or down for deflection shots.
Tex
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curious where you define slow...
Don't know what the speed is but its when I have fought a tuff knife fight ... down on the deck ... get the kill ... and thats when a buddy shows up ... and I have no aileron or rudder control to create an angle that will cause a miss. Seems/feels like I am just hanging there in mid-air spinnin' my wheels. Probably under 100mph ?
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Seems/feels like I am just hanging there in mid-air spinnin' my wheels.
Thats the problem Slap, put your gear up and stop spinnin them wheels. :D
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anyone ever notice how long the spit takes to put flaps down or bring them in?
if I recall it is around 20+- seconds to go from in to out and 20+- seconds to go from out to in, if you're a using flaps you definitely need to use throttle control.........
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ill put up my film for ya too
Roo vs bishland (http://s90945482.onlinehome.us/roosite/Secret%20link%20folder/Roo_vs_Bishland.ahf)
It doesnt have the best gunnery .. but remember its a 15 vs 1 and i was doing my best to survive and cause chaos and mayhem .
now about flaps in a spit 5 .. i never touch them unless im landing on a cv .. its all throttle, rudder, E management , and stay out of the blackouts compleatly .(if your blacking out your flying the spit 5 wrong ) youll have to watch the film for my trade secret of what i use instead of flaps ...
for the rudder it can be and is the biggest life saver in the spit i quick stab to the right or left will cause alot of guys to miss there shot , and applied at the right speed in a vertical manuver the spits rudder is what gets you around and on there 6 alot . its part of the spits "Snapshot" also .
as for beating up on niki's hell yea .. kill that darn pesky thing right away and then go after the others . the niki is faster then the spit but cant outturn or fight as well at the spits speed .
something that also help me get better in the spit 5 was to fly it without using wep .. Fly it like you would normally but try all the dogfights without it ... it sort of turned it into a mini Uber spit when i went back to wep on and off mode .this helped me define different speed management conditions in the spit .
Ok Spitdweeb chant mode off
:aok
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Got some (Probably over a hundred) awsome films of Nomak and I dueling in spits. Not sure how he'd like me posting them. Also quite a few of shane and I. If its cool with shane I'll post them. Redefines the term knife figh, stall fight and any other ungodly slow turning, angles nail biter fight you can think of.
If I can get a Niki slow enough to get my flaps down in a spitV hes a dead man. You should never think of a fight as a turn fight. More so of an angles fight. There are times that I am turning not to get a shot right away, but set him up, or more so myself up for a shot a few turns later.
The more "circles" you turn with anyone the less advantage you will have. Always try and keep it an angles fight one that sets you up, or him, so you can get shot.
AND like the other guys said, Rudder makes a world of difference. Not just for getting a shot off but for cutting your angles in half and getting that nose around quicker which will be followed by the rest of your plane.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
anyone ever notice how long the spit takes to put flaps down or bring them in?
if I recall it is around 20+- seconds to go from in to out and 20+- seconds to go from out to in, if you're a using flaps you definitely need to use throttle control.........
That was true in AH I ... but in AH II the flaps seem to deploy quicker ... at least to me they do.
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I'm pritty Shure Nomak wouldnt mind, He's one of the best Advanced Teachers here . he's hit me over the head a few times and pointed out my mistakes to me .. :D
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Originally posted by streetstang
Got some (Probably over a hundred) awsome films of Nomak and I dueling in spits. Not sure how he'd like me posting them. Also quite a few of shane and I. If its cool with shane I'll post them. Redefines the term knife figh, stall fight and any other ungodly slow turning, angles nail biter fight you can think of.
If I can get a Niki slow enough to get my flaps down in a spitV hes a dead man. You should never think of a fight as a turn fight. More so of an angles fight. There are times that I am turning not to get a shot right away, but set him up, or more so myself up for a shot a few turns later.
The more "circles" you turn with anyone the less advantage you will have. Always try and keep it an angles fight one that sets you up, or him, so you can get shot.
AND like the other guys said, Rudder makes a world of difference. Not just for getting a shot off but for cutting your angles in half and getting that nose around quicker which will be followed by the rest of your plane.
Excellent post Morph ... so very true.
Check with Dave .. I would love to see those films !!!
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Tex....
I would suggest also riding with some of these guys that fly Spit V's as well. I rode with Slap one night. MAN , he bout made me sick:lol
There are a few dedicated Spit V drivers here that I'm sure wouldn't mind you tagging along.
Just an Idea anyway.:)
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It's close but Spit5 wins in turns..but NIKI has ability to disengage and extend/climb/rope...
So you are right..Niki does own Spit5's.
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There are several aircraft that can give the SpitV a hard time in a turn fight (Either Zeke, FM2, Hurricane and the Ki-84), but the N1K2 is not one of them, unless you are not using the Spit to its full capability.
My suggestion is that you visit the TA and look for an experienced pilot to play with. Any of the trainers will help out and you can find Badboy, Inyo or any number of MA regulars there almost on a daily basis. Before you fly a SpitV, fly the N1K2 against Spits first. This will aid you in seeing it weaknesses firsthand against the SpitV.
A common problem I see is that many people don't turn long enough to gain the advantage. They make flat 90 degree turns, and then do those silly little slow rolls, which does nothing but allow their pursuer to re-establish a gun solution.
I suspect that you may be concentrating more on being defensive, rather than offensive. Many years ago, when I began competitive boxing a trainer gave me the best advice I ever received. He said, "stop worrying about what the other guy is trying to do to you and start thinking about what you are going to do to him." In simple terms, fight your fight and not the other guy's fight. Think offense, not defence. Take the fight to him whenever possible. In the case of the N1K2, you need to do what Slapshot recommends, force him into a low-speed maneuver fight, where the SpitV will dominate. As anyone who has good ACM skills will tell you, the secret is as simple as equalizing E states. Again, as Slapshot stated, there is nothing as dangerous as a Co-E, Co-alt SpitV.
It's possible to write pages on how to accomplish equalizing E, but the best way to understand this is to watch flims and to actually fly. That is why I suggest the TA, which I prefer to the DA because mistakes will not result in time wasted getting another fighter. In the TA, you simply disengage, separate and re-engage again. You can do this until one of you runs out of ammo and/or gas. Film every fight. Review the film and watch it from the other guy's plane. You will be better able to see your errors from that vantage point.
One final point. Keeping the enemy in view is extremely important. Concentrate on keeping the enemy within your field of vision. If you lose sight of him, you will probably lose the fight.
A typical example of this happened last evening. One of the MA regulars dropped by the TA to practice after getting clobbered in the MA. He flies the Yak-9U almost exclusively. So, I grabbed an F4U-1 and we squared off. On the merge, I went below his nose, then pulled a vertical reverse, using flaps to really tighten it up coming over the top. He never saw me, having lost sight almost immediately. By the time he finally spotted me, I was 400 yards behind and pouring fire into his Yak.
Having mentioned the F4U, let me deviate from the topic a bit.
I have a nephew who lives with us while attending a nearby State college. He became facinated watching me play Aces High and asked if he could try it. Sure, why not? So, he spent some afternoons after classes in the TA, learning the basics of flying. In the MA, he tends to stick to gunning, buffs and GVs. When he does fly a fighter, he usually gets his butt handed to him. Since he uses my account (for now at least), I can't take him to the TA and tutor him. I usually coach him, sitting alongside at the desk. A week ago or so, he took up an F4U for a Jabo sortie and got shot down before he got anywhere near an enemy base. Basically, he did everything wrong from tower to tower. In fact, the only thing he did right was to turn on the film recorder. First, he took the F4U-1. This fighter can carry only one bomb. Therefore, he had little choice but to take a lot of gas, 100% in this case. Nothing degrades the F4U like excessive fuel does. Next, he flies a route that will take him over a friendly base under constant attack. That surely means that there will be enemy fighters there. Finally, the slow climb rate of the F4U-1 means that he will pass this base without much altitude.
So, climbing thru 8k, a Knit 109 shows up, probably up at 15k or higher. However, my nephew doesn't notice until the 109 is nearly above him. Instead of dumping his bomb, and establishing some speed, he turns towards the 109 and continues to climb! Well, the 109 flies over and reverses. So, my nephew now makes a flat, right hand turn. And he stays in a right turn! He dumps the bomb (finally), but continues the turn, around and around. This 109 turned out to be a 109F-4. A light F4U-1 can turn fight it, IF the pilot of the F4U has some skill. But, a heavy F4U, flown by a noob without a clue was a dead duck. I believe the 109 pilot was Drediock, a frequent and worthy adversary in the MA. My nephew's right-hand spiral prolonged the mismatch far longer than I expected. The 109 could not gain a shooting solution until the F4U ran out of altitude and had to dodge trees and hills. At that point Drediock got him.
Reviewing the film I could see his mistakes. Most of these where typical of a noob. Tactically, he did everything wrong. He also failed to simply dive down to the friendly base, just a couple of miles away from the outset. When the fight slowed down to below 250 mph, he didn't use his flaps. Like the P-38, the F4U can use flaps to great advantage. I also saw very little looking around. Only twice did he look to see where the 109 was once he began turning.
Unfortunately, my nephew deleted the film, or I would post it. There's much to be gained by watching lousy flying too.
My regards,
Widewing
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On the other hand, its true that the SpitV has lost some of its low speed stability in AH2, which makes it a tad more difficult for the SpitV to outturn a N1K2.
In AH1, you could slam down the rudder and pull as tight as possible, which in many cases will simply flat-out outturn the N1K2 in radius.
However, in AH2, meeting a stall while the rudder is fully deflected often causes a devastating spin for the Spitfire.
Usually this spin is deadly when sudden large control input involved, but even when in a slow and steady turn, if you are using lots of rudder and the Spit 'slips' during the turn(meeting a temporary stall), its gonna take a bit of more time to recover than in AH1. If such mistakes continuously occur, it just might give a good N1K2 pilot enough edge to outmaneuver a SpitV.
So, all in all, the effectiveness of sudden, instantaneous type of turns have been greatly reduced in AH2. AH2 turn fights lean a bit more to true-type prolonged, sustained turn fights. It takes a bit longer time, and much more concentration in part of the AH2 Spitfire pilot to achieve the same results as in AH1.
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If i'm in the niki, I usually can out turn a spit V. Takes some work. REALLY depends on the nme pilot tho'.
BUT if I am flying a spit V, I totally own the niki, doesn't matter who the pilot is (usually)
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The spits flaps now deploy very quickly, no more than 2 seconds.
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Originally posted by thrila
The spits flaps now deploy very quickly, no more than 2 seconds.
timed with stop watch, average of 5 up & 5 down, I got 2.98 seconds for each direction.........
for all Spit variants, all Spits only have 1 flap setting either all out or all in....
Niki deploys flaps just as fast if not quicker, and has 5 flap settings....
thanks for nudging me thrila to go check it :)
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i still think the resulting drag of the spits flaps are too much ,along w/ being to slow exspecially when you need to regain speed . (flaps would be a last ditch effort ) but i will give them a try again ... (i still see Lev beat me with his wonder turn everynow and then ,and it just doesnt seam natural from the angle of attacks we are at .. but this could just be destorted from my angle of view )
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In AH1 I used to think the N1K vs. SpitV was almost a dead heat, depended on pilot who could push the furthest. In AH2, I think the extra power the Spit V got tends to push the advantage to them. Also, N1K used to make more of the D800 type shots in AH1 which made it seem deadlier, now with typically shorter shooting ranges I think the Spit probably ends the fight more than the N1K.
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Heyas Jeff , Slappy , Roscoroo and everyone else ......
Feel free to post any films u have of us Morph..... Just dont only post the ones of you winning ;-)
I wish I had all my films still. :(
Im back flying BTW. IL2/FB/AEP/Pacific Fighters has gotten old for me.
c yas all up!
Dave
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I should mention that I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS Licked my chops when a N1K decided to try to turn with my SpitV.
Its all about time in the saddle. Be paitent.
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Originally posted by Nomak
I should mention that I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS Licked my chops when a N1K decided to try to turn with my SpitV.
Its all about time in the saddle. Be paitent.
Well ... when didn't you lick your chops when any plane decided to turn with your Spit V ?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
On the other hand, its true that the SpitV has lost some of its low speed stability in AH2, which makes it a tad more difficult for the SpitV to outturn a N1K2.
I find that is true for all planes(including the Niki)..More challenging FM(stalls/spins) for sure and way more immersive.
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heres a good example of what not to do against a NIK. :)
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/files/niki-o-doom.ahf
and an M16 for that matter.....
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Originally posted by streetstang
Also quite a few of shane and I. If its cool with shane I'll post them. Redefines the term knife figh, stall fight and any other ungodly slow turning, angles nail biter fight you can think of.
films are "historical" record. no plms with you posting them, regardless of whether i won or not. who knows, maybe something can be gained from them, even if only a few minutes diversion.
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Is it necessary to turn the stall limiter off?
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Originally posted by Despair
Is it necessary to turn the stall limiter off?
Very, leaving it on just holds you back from finding the edge of the stall for your plane, then being able to ride the edge ( fly the edge) once you have found it......
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Originally posted by Despair
Is it necessary to turn the stall limiter off?
If you want to be able to fly a fighter to its maximum potential then yes.
The stall limiter is there to help brand new players get a feel for the game and keep them from getting frustrated early on and giving up (At least I think this is the case). I advise turning it off as soon as possible.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Well ... when didn't you lick your chops when any plane decided to turn with your Spit V ?
Heh...... That was true at one time and I do appreaciate the complement. However......
Truth is that I havnt flown much AH in a while and Im a shell of my former self in an AH fighter, Spit V included.
I am back full time now though (Finally given up on IL2/FB/AEP/Pacific Fighters) and I hope to get some of the old feel back.
Speaking of which if anyone feels like giving me some DA brush up it would be appreaciated. ;)
c yas up...... Dave
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Hiya Nomak.... I'm usually on late at night...11 or so. But feel free to e-mail me. I'll play in DA just like old times.
You gonna fly as a BK now? :D
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Originally posted by Wadke
Hiya Nomak.... I'm usually on late at night...11 or so. But feel free to e-mail me. I'll play in DA just like old times.
You gonna fly as a BK now? :D
Heyas there Wadmaster;)
I will be lookin for ya while im on. Although Im usually not on that late.
As for the BKs....... Todd had sent me an invite shortly before I cancelled my acct and I was into one of my "IL2 is the answer" phases.
I have since come to my senses and realized that I cant get away from AH. Soooo......
Im really not sure what the situation is. Im kinda in limbo .
c yas up......... Dave