Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Howitzer on January 07, 2005, 09:18:04 AM
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I remember in the days of AH1 I used to see a lot of videos (wldthing and leviathn's come to mind) where they would use certain ACM when getting BnZ'd. For instance if someone was coming from a high 7 or 8 o'clock, you could bank left and cut down their angle to make the attacker overshoot, but at the last second they would roll back into the line of the attacker and get a chance at a fleeting 6 shot.
I was curious... I haven't seen this much in AH2, and it also seems like I can never get it right when I try it now. So my questions are: With the new FM and the new gunnery is this still feasible in AH2? And, if it is still feasible, what are the factors to keep in mind in order to pull it off (maintaining airspeed, and at what time to roll back into the line)?
Thanks to anyone who can help, been trying this for a while and still not getting it right. :)
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yes, its very possible.
just ensure you save as much E on your roll to have more of a chance at shooting them.
works great in most planes although harder to pull as you get further from TnB style handling planes.
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i do it all the time, it works
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Originally posted by Flyboy
i do it all the time, it works
what he said!
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Like a charm and just like AHI it's still a miracle if I get back on the guns in time lolh. At least I'm not getting shot hahaha.
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It does work, thats why I've started perfecting the fire and let the con in front fly through the bullet stream. Doesn't work all the time but less people are getting away with pulling off a 'lag roll' on me.
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Ive pretty much mastered that move. Works great and is personally the best move in the game.
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I have been "killed" sveral times in AHII by pilots who were adept at this particular move. Hence, now I make a feint as if I'm gonna zoom down on 'em, then pull up b4 I get too committed. They usually have started their "setup" by then, and once they see I'm pulling up some of 'em will try to follow me up, so eager are they to get their shot off. Those guys end up squandering what little "E" they have, and when I see 'em fall away I then roll over and dive in on 'em. I haven't gotten a lot of kills this way, but at least I don't end up as their target, either. I still fly only in the H2H Arena so far, where the number of really good sticks seldom visit. So I don't know if this tactic will work well against an experienced pilot. I suspect the experienced pilot has the discipline not to take the bait.
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I have been "killed" sveral times in AHII by pilots who were adept at this particular move. Hence, now I make a feint as if I'm gonna zoom down on 'em, then pull up b4 I get too committed. They usually have started their "setup" by then, and once they see I'm pulling up some of 'em will try to follow me up, so eager are they to get their shot off.
HEHEHE yeah I noticed this, not you particularly, but I will jink a little bit and the BnZr has disengaged before my angle of bank past 30 degrees. lol.
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Originally posted by mars01
HEHEHE yeah I noticed this, not you particularly, but I will jink a little bit and the BnZr has disengaged before my angle of bank past 30 degrees. lol.
Heh, now some of those guys are just chicken chit, but I'm not afraid to engage. I just try to be cautious at first. After the first merge, caution goes out the window.
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Heh, now some of those guys are just chicken chit, but I'm not afraid to engage. I just try to be cautious at first. After the first merge, caution goes out the window.
Sorry Slimm I wasnt trying to imply that, sorry if I did.
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Originally posted by mars01
Sorry Slimm I wasnt trying to imply that, sorry if I did.
NP. I was just remembering that sometimes when a con had elev advantage on me, wouldn't engage if I showed the least bit of aggressiveness. Very frustrating when they won't engage at all. Almost like they're out for a Sunday drive, but will take a shot only if opportunity handed to 'em on a silver platter.
Part of my problem is that I get impatient and try to force the kill. And it works; only it's me that gets killed.:lol
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Part of my problem is that I get impatient and try to force the kill. And it works; only it's me that gets killed.
No doubt that is my problem too.
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That move works great, but for me it works best in planes that can dump speed and then gain speed well. You also have to be a better marksman than I am to really be effective with it.
However it's not that hard to make it work for the attacker either.
Someone who can see it coming can pull up easily enough and not follow through with the initial pass. If they are of the sceered variety and just extend, you have plenty of time to build enough speed to avoid their next pass. Do this enough and they will get frustrated and either;
1. Push the attack (and you can then force the overshoot)
2. Leave
3. Wait for their brethern to show up and do all the work while they swoop in for the kill.
If they are not sceered all they need to do is manage your E for you. This is done by being just aggressive enough while dancing on your head to get you all mushy and slow. This can be hard or easy for them depending on how well the guy on the bottom is reading the situation in terms of relative E states and attackers timing.
Zaphod
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I think my problem is that I'm pushing that initial bank a little to far because a few guys were able to land lucky hits on me before I cut down on the angle enough. This being the case, I'm not able to roll back over in time. Probably need to work on my timing a bit. I know a couple times I was too quick and rolled back right in front of them LOL :D
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I use this move alot as well. It works great against most of the arena, but it flat out will not work against many too. It's fairly simple to counter without zooming straight up, *IF* you recognize that this is exactly what they are doing.
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ManeTMP's got some tricks up his sleeve. Alot of it has to do with just being a Muppet and being given Muppet Tallent. Then another part of it has to do with insane gunnery. Which is again, another Muppet asset granted only to Muppets. :D
I'll let Mane explain the rest. :D
How does it go Mane?
All Muppets are puppets but not all puppets are Muppets...?
:p
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What they said Howitzer and just to add something.
In a 1-1 against a High E plane, I've found I am actually a lot better off maneuvering them into a 6 oclock position rather than 12 oclock.
If you try to merge with them at 12 OC position there are 2 outcomes.
The lousy pilot takes a HO at you extends etc etc.
The good pilot will use his E advantage to BNZ you, and will control the fight.
If you position them at your 6 OC and basically get them to come to you , you can make them nearly equalize their Energy with yours, and using a form of the reversal you are talking about , you can often "force" someone to engage, who normally would not ie Bnzer
Have also found this is true when chasing faster planes, rather than chase them , turn away and get them to chase you. It's easier to kill them with a reversal than chase them all over the arena. Also you can use that to lead them away from their friends, rather than having them fly towards their friends.
I put together a note for someone recently with a few types of reversals and when I've found best to use which type , and some filmed examples. Send me a note Redd at bordernet.com.au if you want them
There's also some good film examples around the BBS.
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Originally posted by streetstang
ManeTMP's got some tricks up his sleeve. Alot of it has to do with just being a Muppet and being given Muppet Tallent. Then another part of it has to do with insane gunnery. Which is again, another Muppet asset granted only to Muppets. :D
I'll let Mane explain the rest. :D
How does it go Mane?
All Muppets are puppets but not all puppets are Muppets...?
:p
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Count 'em dude ... 5 rollie-eyes ... just for you ... :D
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W000T Muppet pwn@g3!
:D :D :D :D :D
And for my slappy!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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I use that move a lot too, but for me at this point its purely a defencive/E-equalizer and not offensive like the really good guys do it. I use it exactly as Redd described to bring a much higer E enema down and equalize our E states. I also use it for those "Oh...chit, where did that FW190 d400 off my 6 come from?" moments to force an overshoot and missed shot.
I never seem, no matter how many times I do it, do be able to get a gun solution after they go by, but it works very well otherwise.
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Originally posted by streetstang
ManeTMP's got some tricks up his sleeve. Alot of it has to do with just being a Muppet and being given Muppet Tallent. Then another part of it has to do with insane gunnery. Which is again, another Muppet asset granted only to Muppets. :D
I'll let Mane explain the rest. :D
How does it go Mane?
All Muppets are puppets but not all puppets are Muppets...? :p
It's in the sig. ;) You know he's right... right? :p
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Originally posted by Grits
I never seem, no matter how many times I do it, do be able to get a gun solution after they go by, but it works very well otherwise.
Flying mainly 50 cal planes, it's very hard to kill with that snapshot opportunity anyway, it's more about getting them to engage on your terms rather than theirs and gaining position/angles for a potential kill.
In a cannon plane - then yes a snapshot can kill.
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Originally posted by XtrmeJ
It's in the sig. ;) You know he's right... right? :p
Pfffft... Palease, its a known fakt!
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Defensively I am lousey at this manouver and have to be very lucky to barrell roll to guns on.........my opponent has to have tried it ( a snap shot) at much lower e than he should have and/or have made some e sapping lead turn attempt at a spray and pray instead of side slipping with rudder for a tracking shot or he pulled out of his attack to early and i have still have e to spare.
Even then most times I end up rolled out pointing in the wrong direction having to pull to his 6.
Attacking this manouver I watch my speed very carefully....and often bait my opponent to commit to the full brake turn before pulling up........if he presents me with a ruddered shot I take it........because ruddered and side sliping my ac's attitude is near the horizontal in an ideal position to go neutral rudder then pull up and of course I can see him begin a roll (I think to make this work he has to start the roll early)
Also I do not pull to vert until I am sure I am out of guns range.........add a little kink to the angle to force him to add some elevator to his roll......... 45 degrees climb first check for his speed and any closure then if OK go vert and come round nice and smooth minimising his time to nose down for speed.........in an La (5 or 7 for me) thats a 3 g loop chopping throttle over the top to drop the nose........... if agin 38's or someone who is obviously happy flying at very low speeds fully flapped then watch for their nose going up early under me..........I just hang and wait for it to start to drop
rinse and repeat
In fact the biggest problem I have attacking this manouver is when my opponent knows its me..........and knows how poor my gunnery is................ then of course he simply never pulls the full manouver....he just starts it and converts to rolling scissors via an obvious barrel roll (with far less e loss). Chances are I fluff the shot and risk over shoot into his waiting guns.
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yeah it works. timing is everything.
you may have to rinse wash repeat - at which point the guy bnz you will eventually run off.
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Originally posted by Redd
Flying mainly 50 cal planes, it's very hard to kill with that snapshot opportunity anyway, it's more about getting them to engage on your terms rather than theirs and gaining position/angles for a potential kill.
In a cannon plane - then yes a snapshot can kill.
Yup, problem is, as Shane said, its all in the timing and my timing is off. I can make 9 out of 10 guys miss me with that move, but I have yet to land even one hit on them after they go past. I think I might be waiting too long to make the "break" roll back into them, by the time I get guns around them they are already D400 or over. Anyway it works great for equalizing E and as a sort of "aggressive" defence.
Understanding this move was also something of an epiphany for me, in that it lead me to use the same idea in all kinds of other situations, like in the middle of a furball. Where before I would just pull harder to get angles, I have started to use roll instead. It's like a lightbulb went off and suddenly I could visualize in my head what I had seen guys do and thought was just nearly impossible I just didnt understand what exactly was going on.
I still dont make it all work out like I want to, but I feel like I have a much better picture in my head of what is going on and that is a huge advantage.
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Howitzer from what it sounds like that is a move I use quite often. Especially when I'm at a disadvantage and being bnz'd to death. I will try to maintain both alt and speed. As they come back in I'll turn into them and be slightly off angle left or right of their nose. Majority of the time they'll attempt to get me by rolling and coming down on me. When they do this they end up heading the same direction but slightly lower than me. They second I see that they'll be heading the same way I'll roll over into what should be their exit path of the bnz. I'll typically end up around D200 to D400 and may or may not get a shot off before they get out of range. I may have a film some where of that.
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Originally posted by Shane
yeah it works. timing is everything.
you may have to rinse wash repeat - at which point the guy bnz you will eventually run off.
That is pretty much it exactly. And Cobra hinted at this as well, but I think I pull the bank too hard then I'm unable to match the enemy's speed when I pull back on his 6, and most of the time he'll then go nose down and not look back. Need to keep practicing speed management in AH2, just seems different.
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Drex used to do that all the time in his Hellcat. Fun to watch :)
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You mean you are supposed to MOVE when somebody gets on your tail? Damn.... :mad: