Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gixer on January 08, 2005, 03:37:14 AM
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"At an American military airfield in Iraq, work was being done on the runway, but no one had bothered to issue a NOTAM (notice to airmen). Aircraft landing during the day were able to avoid the work site, but a C-130 came in at night on December 29th, hit the work area, and was totalled. There were several injuries among the crew and passengers, but no fatalities. There will, however, be some fatal effects on the career prospects of one or more air force officers (the ones responsible for distributing NOTAM information"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/davest/c130_crackup_1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/davest/c130_crackup_2.jpg)
...-Gixer
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You have landed successfully.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
You have landed successfully.
LOL! :D :D
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<.e>
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Eh, it's an old H model, no loss heh.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
You have landed successfully.
ROFLMAO
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Originally posted by SunTracker
You have landed successfully.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
Eh, it's an old H model, no loss heh.
U sure? I know it doesnt have the upgraded props but what's up with the long nose one it?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
U sure? I know it doesnt have the upgraded props but what's up with the long nose one it?
Possibly some Elint Bird?
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*in my best Forrest Gump voice*
"Momma used to say Stupid is as Stupid does, that's what Momma used to say."
They should cut nards off over that, But...then again it'll be hushed up to protect Officers careers.
Mac
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and americans wonder how they get their 'dumb' reputation ;)
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AWMac you're talking/acting like a tool. There will probably be an SIB and an AIB, quite possibly followed by an FEB, especially if this is considered a non-combat-related loss. A pilot is supposed to KNOW everything there is about where they're going to, notams or not.
Suggesting a coverup in a mishap of this type to protect the career of an officer, and your comments in another thread, tells me you've got a chip on your shoulder about officers for some reason.
If you're active duty, I strongly suggest you get over it or get out before you impress your biases onto any young troops. Seriously, the military isn't in the best shape and attitudes like yours are part of the problem. If you have a problem with a particular officer, take it up with your chain, the IG, or if you must, blow the whistle to your congressman. But don't spread this kind of BS around because it does more to destroy our military than any hundred enemy could. You've bagged on officers in at least 2 threads so it's clear you've got a problem to deal with. Please don't spread that kind of nonsense here. If you're in the kind of shop that actually believes the normal bit*hing and griping about officers, you've been misled by your peers and immediate supervisors.
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Originally posted by eagl
A pilot is supposed to KNOW everything there is about where they're going to, notams or not.
Sure, the PIC is responsible. I assure you that NO tickets would be pulled if this.
It's the pilots job to check Wx, notams and airspace restrictions as well as be familiar with the airport. If no information is published about there being a huge hole in the middle of the runway then its not on the pilot.
It's on the airport manager to do that.
It would've been nice if the controllers mentioned something about the big giant aircraft eating hole in the runway, but that isn't their job either. It would be nice if it was on the ATIS, but still not their responsiblity. ATCs job is seperation of aircraft...period.
The pilots aren't going to get in a lick of trouble for this.
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Golfer,
Without knowing all the facts, all I'll say is don't be too sure about that. A guy I know punched from a jet that went out of control due to a nut that was installed without a cotter pin, and the wing CC nearly ripped his head off before the investigation was completed. In fact, the cause of the mishap wasn't even determined until the last days of the investigation and was largely a lucky find. If someone hadn't noticed the missing bolt and no sign of the pin/safety wire, the pilot would have roasted even though he did everything right and saved not only his own life but the life of his WSO.
Everyone's on edge in the military nowadays and the top leadership always wants someone to focus the blame on. Always. If there isn't anyone else to blame, a lot of times someone decides that it must be the pilot's fault because like a ship's captain, in the end it's his responsibility to safely conduct the flight.
The accountability pendulum has swung full scale to the ludicrous side... There is a new voluntary USAFE program "combat wingman" where people are supposed to have a buddy to help them keep out of trouble, avoid DUIs, etc. Nobody in their right mind will participate however because it's only a matter of time before someone who did NOTHING WRONG is prosecuted for someone else's crime simply because they were supposed to be their "combat wingman".
A pilot I know got a formal reprimand for... get this... doing nothing wrong. A group of young aircrew, some pilots, some WSOs, 3 Lts and a captain, went out to a pub. One of the Lts was the designated driver so he applied the common sense rule of thumb, one drink per hour, padded it by 2 hours, and they figured it was a good plan. The driver had one or two drinks, and about 4 hours later they drove home. On the way back, they got stopped by the police for something stupid, a busted tail light or something, and the driver blew a very low number on the breathalyzer. By default that means they all get hauled off to jail for blood tests. The blood test comes back well below the legal limit, and they're released.
The Captain decided he'd be a good officer and report the incident to his superiors just to make sure they heard it from him first. The end result was all 4 got formal reprimands and the Captain got particular attention for not exercising the judgement in according to his position as the ranking officer in the group, even though no crime was committed, they had a plan to safely go out and come home, and they followed through with their plan.
WTF, over?
Well, that's the state of "accountability" in the US military. It's ludicrous and it covers not only DUIs, but operational mishaps as well. Any time something goes wrong, even if it's a simple mistake that has zero real consequences in terms of injury or damage, someone is going to roast.
I blame congress for putting our senior leadership into the position of having to demand this kind of pseudo-accountability and micromanagement, but I'm just a pawn like every other pawn so my opinion doesn't mean crap. I just have to cover my prettythang and try to cover for anyone working for me because I have no confidence that anyone above me will stick their neck out on my behalf. Some commanders are better than others and there are a few supervisors and commanders that I trust without question, but they're in the minority.
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The Captain decided he'd be a good officer and report the incident to his superiors just to make sure they heard it from him first. The end result was all 4 got formal reprimands and the Captain got particular attention for not exercising the judgement in according to his position as the ranking officer in the group, even though no crime was committed, they had a plan to safely go out and come home, and they followed through with their plan.
Ok, I'm the superior officer and I get the report. I've got the Captain standing in front of me:
He just told me that he went out drinking with some other officers...K
Had a Designated Driver...K, good.
Designated Driver had been drinking...Oh? (DD's don't drink in my book)
The DD blew a positive on the breathalyzer...thats not good. Regardless of 'legal limit' he's still under the influence of the alcohol like it or not.
While nobody was 'legally drunk' the DD had been drinking and was driving. I'd say they got off fairly with a reprimand.
The Captain could've used his judgement to decide or agree beforehand that the DD would not drink (Most bars around here DD's get free sodas) since he's got to drive. Had there been an accident, tox reports would have showed alcohol in his system and thats the end of that.
I'd say its fair, and nobody was hurt but it should be a learning experience. DD's don't drink.
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See, that's the thing... A butt chewing would have been enough. But no, they had to put it down on paper.
I can't count the number of times I've gone out with the guys, had one drink at the beginning of the party, then driven myself home. I know that I am personally capable of sticking to those limits. The one time I ever tested my judgement, I put my keys in the host's key basket before taking a sip of my second drink, and I stayed the night.
So... I should get a formal reprimand because I rely on math (one drink per party) and my own judgement to keep out of trouble?
It just isn't proportional to the crime. Hell, no crime was committed. No harm was done. It's even a stretch to say that poor judgement was exercised, because they had a plan and followed it.
The problem of course is that when A1C Snuffy tries to emulate Lt Hotshot, he may not have the same ability to stick to a plan like that, and he'll end up driving while over the legal limit or wrecking his car. That's the real issue. So many airmen are getting hit with DUIs or getting into fatal alcohol related car wrecks that the officers are being told they have to hold themselves to a standard of behavior that takes personal judgement out of the picture entirely. It's important to understand that we're being told that we cannot be trusted to use our judgement because a small percentage of the force consistently exercises poor judgement, and it is getting people killed.
Treat people like children and they will be unable to act like adults. There is a battle going on now in the USAF where young troops, both officer and enlisted, are being shown that they should not exercise any judgement because they'll get roasted if they're wrong, but then they're put into combat where they have to suddenly learn good judgement or they die. Some supervisors are teaching judgement skills regardless of how much trouble it gets them and their troops into, because for every person that gets into trouble for making an honest mistake, there will be a dozen who's lives may be saved by a good judgement call.
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AH! I just read 'formal reprimand' rather than a 'verbal reprimand'
Eh...They needed a good 'talking to' but if the officer is a dick then he'd get written up. Sucks, but the same situation could have ended worse. I know 2 kids killed by drunk drivers, one the night he graduated from High School, driving his drunk friend's brand new firebird and got Tboned by another drunk driver. He was the only one killed.
The other was killed last may about 200yds from his house when a guy ran a stop sign at about 60mph. I just found out about this one recently. He, his brother and I had been friends since we were real young, now one lives in PA, one in FL and im back in Ohio so we don't keep in touch.
I take alcohol and driving very seriously and I don't tolerate it. DD's don't drink, period. I dont know if I'd write them up, I'd take more pleasure in administering the pain myself.
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Yea. My Dad was a career CHP traffic officer and I grew up reading the CAHP association magazine. It had pictures and writeups of about 20 accidents each month. It didn't take long to notice that most of the pictures with lots of blood were the result of drunk driving, and that pretty much set my opinion on drunk driving for life.
Being a libertarian at heart though, it bothers me when the popular solution to any given problem is to remove judgement from the picture. I'd rather make drunk drivers walk or take the bus than try to teach kids that alcohol is somehow evil. Alcohol abuse leads to bad behavior, and it is a conscious decision that people make that leads to that abuse. If you can't handle your likker, don't have the first drink. If you MUST have that drink, check into rehab and get yourself sorted out before you kill someone. But that's a choice, and people should be taught to make good choices, not taught to avoid choices in the first place.
And on general principle, I also agree that DDs should not drink at all. I just like giving people the option to exercise good judgement when the opportunity arises, and that always depends on the situation. Is it ok to have one beer at the pre-game tailgate when I'm driving the gang home after the game?
We're afraid to teach people how to think because heaven forbid they might make a mistake, so we can't count on people using good judgement anymore. That education process ought to start before it's an issue that could result in someone's death.
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It was a MC-130 Combat Talon aircraft, that's why it has the funky radome on the nose.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Possibly some Elint Bird?
Nope, all of ours were sitting on the apron this morning...or so I heard. :aok