Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: genozaur on January 08, 2005, 03:44:12 AM
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Did everybody miss this news about the shooting down of the 9-11 plane in Pennsylvania ?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42112
My AA intuition decided long ago (shortly after the 9-11) that that doomed plane was eliminated by the USAF.
Can it be that Rumsfeld's survival in the new administration was the result of his knowledge of the darkest secrets of the 1st W's presidency?
Is "Rum" actually threatening W with the possible exposure of this big secret?
9
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(http://gilbertv.com/coppermine/albums/threads/normal_putdown.jpg)
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actually, it was my first instinct as well.
a terrible thing, but perhaps it would have been neccessary.
it would have killed the admin for something like that to go public.
right or wrong.
i do think that it is possible.
BTW. what ever became of the anthrax attacks? the ones with the US military grade anthrax...havent heart much about em lately.
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Don't panic !
It looks like another hushup.:rolleyes:
Sorry, but I don't have time right now to research that. If I can research that.
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Well first of all if you read his quote from that article he refers to the terrorists and shooting down the plane. I believe he refers to the Hijackers crashing the plane as "Shooting it down". It was about a month ago I believe that they released parts of the black box tape. In that tape its clear that although the passengers were trying to take back the plane they were unable to breech the cockpit, and it appeares as though the Hijackers took the plane down.
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and Jimmy Hoffa is buried at Giants stadium.
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Originally posted by RTStuka
Well first of all if you read his quote from that article he refers to the terrorists and shooting down the plane. I believe he refers to the Hijackers crashing the plane as "Shooting it down". It was about a month ago I believe that they released parts of the black box tape. In that tape its clear that although the passengers were trying to take back the plane they were unable to breech the cockpit, and it appeares as though the Hijackers took the plane down.
I did not report Mr "Rum" saying that the FLIGHT 93 was SHOT DOWN BY THE USAF.
IT IS MORE THAN JUST A CONTEXTUAL PARAPHRASE WHEN SUCH EVENTS ARE CALLED AS SHOOTING DOWN BY ONE OF THE FEW TOPMOST MILITARY OFFICERS OF THE USA. Unless Mr "Rum" was utilizing the benefits of adding another "tongue-twister pearl" to the vocabulary of W speak.
I was reading beetween the lines and found out the implied hint at such (in my opinion) highly probable turn of the 9-11 events. Please read again the header of my thread and the last line of my post, so that you understand what I am trying to deliver in this discussion.
Yet I understand your position of all-out readiness for the nose-dive bombing. It must be really difficult to change the course of your Stuka when the target has been locked in your sights for more than three years already.
The last intentions of the terrorist hijackers to crash that plane into the ground DO NOT PRESENT 100% EVIDENCE THAT THEY DID IT WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE USAF EAGLES.
As far as I remember the whole terrorist attack was well-planned in advance, with the secondary targets assigned to the hijackers' squads in case they would't be able to hit their primary targets. Does not look like an amateur effort at all. And also I still can't believe that the USAF interceptor planes are piloted exclusively by the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen. :rolleyes:
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First, there isn't any evidence to support it was shot down.
Second, if it was, why would they cover it up? That's exactly what would be expected of them in that situation. To shoot it down.
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well, actually because the first thing that would happen is that people would immediately criticize the president for having it shot down, "did he explore all available options? how could he be sure it was terrorists? etc...though the actual order to do so if neccessary came from president cheney if i am not mistaken.
(i think it was sent from his omaha rabbithole.)
anyone know anything about the US military grade anthrax that was floating about?
hmmmmm.
the al queda knew which congresspeople to target...they so smart) and they made shipping illegal things more difficult...they so smart.
im not willing to put anything to the side so long as stupid crap continues to happen and so long as certain people continue to benift.
oh. btw. texas killed kennedy.
just so you know.
: )
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And also I still can't believe that the USAF interceptor planes are piloted exclusively by the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen.
Please explain this.
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And george bush actually said that he saw the first plane crash into the WTC tower on live TV, twice!! These are just slips of the tongue, not admissions of guilt.
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i agree that it is possible that it was a slip of the tongue, but then again i was wondering if any of us have ever considered the very real possibility that our president has some pretty good body doubles.
ya think?
how many did saddam have?
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Originally posted by Martlet
First, there isn't any evidence to support it was shot down.
Second, if it was, why would they cover it up? That's exactly what would be expected of them in that situation. To shoot it down.
Dear Mart, let me call your statement incorrect.
Even if you just read again that rather poor article from the link I provided at the start of this discussion, you'll find A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE supporting my "genuine insight".
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Originally posted by genozaur
Dear Mart, let me call your statement incorrect.
Even if you just read again that rather poor article from the link I provided at the start of this discussion, you'll find A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCIAL EVIDENCE supporting my "genuine insight".
No you won't. There wasn't a single piece of "circumstancial evidence" in that article.
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It's a freemason / scull and bones / Bilderberger Group grand conspiracy to hush up the real story of Dealy Plaza. The last member of the assasination squad was on that plane. I have proof.
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Originally posted by genozaur
My AA intuition decided long ago (shortly after the 9-11) that that doomed plane was eliminated by the USAF.
Can it be that Rumsfeld's survival in the new administration was the result of his knowledge of the darkest secrets of the 1st W's presidency?
Is "Rum" actually threatening W with the possible exposure of this big secret?9
Gee,what about the pilot who shot it down?Or the ATC who guided him to it?How about the radio transmissions from the fighter?What about the HUD tape,where did it go?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It's a freemason / scull and bones / Bilderberger Group grand conspiracy to hush up the real story of Dealy Plaza. The last member of the assasination squad was on that plane. I have proof.
Well, now you've done it. I've added your name to the list. Sorry about that upcoming car accident.
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D'oh!
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lol holden.
you are clearly mad.
it wasnt the freemasons, it was the local moose lodge.
to get back to the original question...
i think rummy is, by far, the most cunnng of stalins...er bush's cabinet.
if not that, i am sure he has some pretty
hard balls to play with.
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And also I still can't believe that the USAF interceptor planes are piloted exclusively by the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen.
Once again genozaur, please explain this. What is it that has you in disbelief? That it was a National Guardsman piloting the interceptors? Please explain why that would be so out of the ordinary.
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Moose lodge?
What you don’t know about the Freemasons JB? And I supposed it is just a coincidence that Dealey Plaza, Area 51, Rozwell, and Baghdad are all on the same latitude? The 33rd parallel? And the highest level in Freemasonry is 33rd? Wheels within wheels my friend... wheels within wheels.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Moose lodge?
What you don’t know about the Freemasons JB? And I supposed it is just a coincidence that Dealey Plaza, Area 51, Rozwell, and Baghdad are all on the same latitude? The 33rd parallel? And the highest level in Freemasonry is 33rd? Wheels within wheels my friend... wheels within wheels.
Targeting.......
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chaos.
that which caused.
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quote:And also I still can't believe that the USAF interceptor planes are piloted exclusively by the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen.
Originally posted by Mini D
Please explain this.
Firstly, for some unexplainable reason I don't trust the flight qualifications of "the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen" whoever those poor chaps can be.
And secondly, just take an inch closer look at the whole USAF "interception of Flight 93 operation" as it was presented by the media.
I can still vividly remember how much perplexed I was with all those newscasts about THE TOTAL INABILITY OF THE USAF INTERCEPTORS TOGETHER WITH THE NORAD TO EVEN FIND THE LOST \HIJACKED FLIGHT 93. Then, after they had finally located it, NOBODY SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO SHOOT IT DOWN THOUGH IT PRESENTED BY ITSELF A HUGE AIRBORNE TARGET MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF DENSELY POPULATED AREAS AND, POSSIBLY, TOWARDS A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT. AND IT WAS ALREADY KNOWN THAT THE FLIGHT 93 HAD BEEN HIJACKED TO CARRY OUT THE NEXT SUICIDE ATTACK.
I still can't believe these media reports. Sorry for that. Maybe my 2-year experience with the Soviet AA regiment gives me the wrong angle of view on this whole fable of UNDETECTABLE AND UNDESTRUCTIBLE FLIGHT 93.
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Originally posted by genozaur
quote:And also I still can't believe that the USAF interceptor planes are piloted exclusively by the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen.
Firstly, for some unexplainable reason I don't trust the flight qualifications of "the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen" whoever those poor chaps can be.
And secondly, just take an inch closer look at the whole USAF "interception of Flight 93 operation" as it was presented by the media.
I can still vividly remember how much perplexed I was with all those newscasts about THE TOTAL INABILITY OF THE USAF INTERCEPTORS TOGETHER WITH THE NORAD TO EVEN FIND THE LOST \HIJACKED FLIGHT 93. Then, after they had finally located it, NOBODY SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO SHOOT IT DOWN THOUGH IT PRESENTED BY ITSELF A HUGE AIRBORNE TARGET MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF DENSELY POPULATED AREAS AND, POSSIBLY, TOWARDS A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT. AND IT WAS ALREADY KNOWN THAT THE FLIGHT 93 HAD BEEN HIJACKED TO CARRY OUT THE NEXT SUICIDE ATTACK.
I still can't believe these media reports. Sorry for that. Maybe my 2-year experience with the Soviet AA regiment gives me the wrong angle of view on this whole fable of UNDETECTABLE AND UNDESTRUCTIBLE FLIGHT 93.
Wow. compelling evidence.:rolleyes:
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actually, there does exist some compelling evidence, though i am not sure that it has been presented in this thread.
its all over the web. some probably wacko, some gets ya thinkin, but i dont think that it is unreasonable to question the validity of the party line.
werent there two other planes...one isreali and one russian that went down that day too? (i remember hearing about them right at the beginnng, then nothing else later)
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Originally posted by JB88
actually, there does exist some compelling evidence, though i am not sure that it has been presented in this thread.
its all over the web. some probably wacko, some gets ya thinkin, but i dont think that it is unreasonable to question the validity of the party line.
werent there two other planes...one isreali and one russian that went down that day too? (i remember hearing about them right at the beginnng, then nothing else later)
Beats me. I've heard people talking a lot about evidence, but haven't seen anyone actually present any yet.
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Ah... gotcha genozaur. Though, you do realize your whole argument is based on 1) not believing the media and 2) your own ignorance.
If this would have been an active duty pilot, you'd have more of an argument. You obviously don't understand the defense role of the Air National Guard.
As for how the plan was/wasn't found... the problem is you're only reading media reports. Of course it's going to be confusing because the media is... are you ready for this?... NEVER accurate.
This seems like an attempt to place conspiracy where there is none. Much like the Pentagon crash. Someone claimed that it would be easier for the government to launch a cruise missile at the pentagon and then dispose of a jet and all of it's passengers elsewhere than it would be for somoene to crash the plane into a building. All without anyone either spotting the missile, or hearing one whisper of a rumor in regards to disposing of an aircraft loaded with passengers.
It's amazing how intricate conspiracy theories get. It's amazing how theorists assume that it's simple to keep everyone involved quiet. It just doesn't work that way... anywhere.
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Originally posted by Mini D
.... All without anyone either spotting the missile, or hearing one whisper of a rumor in regards to disposing of an aircraft loaded with passengers....
Come on now, isn't it obvious? The passengers and plane are quarantined at Groom Lake....
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Originally posted by Martlet
First, there isn't any evidence to support it was shot down.
Second, if it was, why would they cover it up? That's exactly what would be expected of them in that situation. To shoot it down.
yes.
If ruhmsfeld had the thing shot down its a reason that he should be the secretary of defense. Not a reason for black mailing the president.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Once again genozaur, please explain this. What is it that has you in disbelief? That it was a National Guardsman piloting the interceptors? Please explain why that would be so out of the ordinary.
Dear Mini D, that wouldn't be out of the ordinary at all because in such a situation you scramble up any available interceptors in the sector irrespectively of particular Air branch affiliation or military education of the pilots.
The thing I greately doubt is the INTENSITY OF THE STUPIDITY AS PRESENTED BY THE MEDIA.
The whole interception operation was presented to the public as the unsuccessful attempt of a couple of Holliwood crop-duster pilots. Yeah, brave guys but lacking experience, and we can't blame them because they are really brave guys but lacking ....
As if there are no other means of shooting down a huge passenger airliner piloted by terrorists. When were the AA missiles abolished in the United States of America ?
So, to me personally there seems to be quite a lot of the bullcrap in the whole story reported by the media. And now this "slip of the tongue"
from the too well-known mouth.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Dear Mini D, that wouldn't be out of the ordinary at all because in such a situation you scramble up any available interceptors in the sector irrespectively of particular Air branch affiliation or military education of the pilots.
The thing I greately doubt is the INTENSITY OF THE STUPIDITY AS PRESENTED BY THE MEDIA.
The whole interception operation was presented to the public as the unsuccessful attempt of a couple of Holliwood crop-duster pilots. Yeah, brave guys but lacking experience, and we can't blame them because they are really brave guys but lacking ....
As if there are no other means of shooting down a huge passenger airliner piloted by terrorists. When were the AA missiles abolished in the United States of America ?
So, to me personally there seems to be quite a lot of the bullcrap in the whole story reported by the media. And now this "slip of the tongue"
from the too well-known mouth.
What media story are you talking about?
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(http://gilbertv.com/coppermine/albums/threads/normal_putdown.jpg)
*cough, cough...bullchit, cough*
"Lets Roll..."
genozaur screw you and yer bait... isn't working here.
Mac
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Originally posted by Martlet
Wow. compelling evidence.:rolleyes:
If you are totally denying ALL THE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTED BY THE REALLY VERY STRANGE USE OF THE MILITARY TERM "TO SHOOT DOWN" BY THE SECRETARY OF DEFENCE, then good day to you Sir. This thread is of no interest to you.
The thing is I'm not an oracle, but I still consider my QUESTIONES to be legitimate TOPIC FOR DISCUSSION even when we may be LACKING DIRECT EVIDENCE.
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Originally posted by genozaur
If you are totally denying ALL THE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTED BY THE REALLY VERY STRANGE USE OF THE MILITARY TERM "TO SHOOT DOWN" BY THE SECRETARY OF DEFENCE, then good day to you Sir. This thread is of no interest to you.
The thing is I'm not an oracle, but I still consider my QUESTIONES to be legitimate TOPIC FOR DISCUSSION even when we may be LACKING DIRECT EVIDENCE.
So, what you're saying is, even though there is no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, you started this thread just to say you believed in this awesome conspiracy theory, but don't want to discuss it unless someone feels like disagreeing with you or lets you argue your point with opinions.
Nice. Stupid, but nice. I give it a 2.5
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I have a tape which shows the aircraft suddenly jerk as it passes the grassy knoll.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Monk
and Jimmy Hoffa is buried at Giants stadium.
Actually, I find this more believable
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Originally posted by AWMac
(http://gilbertv.com/coppermine/albums/threads/normal_putdown.jpg)
*cough, cough...bullchit, cough*
"Lets Roll..."
genozaur screw you and yer bait... isn't working here.
Mac
Same to you, my honey.
I'm trying to discuss a military issue here which has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, blackmailing president, undermining your sunny state of mind, fishing rods and bait.
As simple as that. So don't be so springy.
Relax.
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WHAT DID HAPPEN TO FLIGHT 93?
RICHARD WALLACE, US Editor, examines riddle of hijacked jet as he visits crash site
THE unmarked military-style jet swooped down at high speed through the valley, twice circled the smouldering black scar where Flight 93 had careered into the ground just seconds earlier and then hurtled off over the horizon.
GRIEF: Victims' relatives visit a makeshift memorial at crash site
At least six eyewitnesses saw the mysterious aircraft on the morning of September 11 last year. But the US authorities deny it ever existed.
So when George Bush laid a wreath yesterday at the crash site in a remote valley outside Shanksville, Pennsylvania, he was one of only a handful of people who know what really happened to the 40 innocents and four hijackers aboard the doomed United Airlines Boeing 757-200.
Those unimaginable final seconds as passengers showed courageous defiance apparently wrestling for control of the aircraft have become one of the defining images of the tragedy.
And "Let's roll" - ringleader Todd Beamer's no-nonsense call to arms - became a defining battle cry in America's war on terror.
But of the four aircraft taken on September 11, the exact fate of Flight 93 after its two-hour journey is proving difficult for US officials to explain.
What was the white jet doing there and why won't they admit to its presence? Why did other witnesses see smoke and flames trailing from Flight 93 as it fell from the sky, indicating a possible explosion aboard?
Or - and this is proving to be the most uncomfortable question of all - in the moments before the airliner piled into the black, spongey earth at 575mph did an American fighter pilot have to do the unthinkable and shoot down a US civil airliner?
Susan Mcelwain, 51, who lives two miles from the site, knows what she saw - the white plane rocketed directly over her head.
"It came right over me, I reckon just 40 or 50ft above my mini-van," she recalled. "It was so low I ducked instinctively. It was travelling real fast, but hardly made any sound.
"Then it disappeared behind some trees. A few seconds later I heard this great explosion and saw this fireball rise up over the trees, so I figured the jet had crashed. The ground really shook. So I dialled 911 and told them what happened.
"I'd heard nothing about the other attacks and it was only when I got home and saw the TV that I realised it wasn't the white jet, but Flight 93.
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the real story is,bush , who is a trained fighter pilot, was flown by air force one to a secert halaburton air base where he launched in a fighter and interceped the highjacked plane and shot it down.
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Ididn't think much more about it until the authorities started to say there had been no other plane. The plane I saw was heading right to the point where Flight 93 crashed and must have been there at the very moment it came down.
"There's no way I imagined this plane - it was so low it was virtually on top of me. It was white with no markings but it was definitely military, it just had that look.
"It had two rear engines, a big fin on the back like a spoiler on the back of a car and with two upright fins at the side. I haven't found one like it on the internet. It definitely wasn't one of those executive jets. The FBI came and talked to me and said there was no plane around.
"Then they changed their story and tried to say it was a plane taking pictures of the crash 3,000ft up.
"But I saw it and it was there before the crash and it was 40ft above my head. They did not want my story - nobody here did."
Mrs Mcelwain, who looks after special needs children, is further convinced the whole truth has yet to come out because of a phone call she had within hours from the wife of an air force friend of the family.
"She said her husband had called her that morning and said 'I can't talk, but we've just shot a plane down,' " Susan said. "I presumed they meant Flight 93. I have no doubt those brave people on board tried to do something, but I don't believe what happened on the plane brought it down.
"If they shot it down, or something else happened, everyone, especially the victims' families, have a right to know."
Lee Purbaugh, 32, was the only person to see the last seconds of Flight 93 as it came down on former strip-mining land at precisely 10.06am - and he also saw the white jet.
He was working at the Rollock Inc. scrapyard on a ridge overlooking the point of impact, less than half a mile away. "I heard this real loud noise coming over my head," he told the Daily Mirror. "I looked up and it was Flight 93, barely 50ft above me. It was coming down in a 45 degree and rocking from side to side. Then the nose suddenly dipped and it just crashed into the ground. There was this big fireball and then a huge cloud of smoke."
But did he see another plane? "Yes, there was another plane," Lee said. "I didn't get a good look but it was white and it circled the area about twice and then it flew off over the horizon."
Tom Spinelli, 28, was working at India Lake Marina, a mile and a half away. "I saw the white plane," he said.
"It was flying around all over the place like it was looking for something. I saw it before and after the crash."
India Lake also contributes to the view there was an explosion on board before the Newark-San Francisco flight came down. Debris rained down on the lake - a curious feat if, as the US government insists, there was no mid-air explosion and the plane was intact until it hit the ground.
"It was mainly mail, bits of in-flight magazine and scraps of seat cloth," Tom said. "The authorities say it was blown here by the wind." But there was only a 10mph breeze and you were a mile and a half away? Tom raised his eyebrows, rolled his eyes and said: "Yeah, that's what they reckon."
Light debris was also found eight miles away in New Baltimore. A section of engine weighing a ton was located 2,000 yards - over a mile -from the crash site. Theorists point out a Sidewinder heat-seeking missile attacks the hottest part of aircraft - the engine.
The authorities say the impact bounced it there. But the few pieces of surviving fuselage, local coroner Wallace Miller told us, were "no bigger than a carrier bag".
Nearly all the passengers were reduced to charcoal on impact and the largest piece of human tissue found was a section of spine eight inches long.
CURIOUSLY, military officials insist there was never any pursuit of Flight 93, although they were informed that it was a suspected hijack at 9.16am, 50 minutes before the plane came down.
At 9.35am they assumed it was heading for Washington DC after it changed course in a 180 degree turn and three F-16s - top speed 1,800mph - now patrolling over the capital were told to "protect the White House at all costs".
An anonymous flight controller said on the day that an F-16 was "in hot pursuit" of Flight 93 - Washington to Shanksville is seven to 10 minutes flying time.
A few minutes before the crash Bill Wright, piloting a single-engine Piper, could see Flight 93 three miles away, but was suddenly told to turn away and land immediately without explanation.
At 9.58am a 911 call - the last mobile phone contact from Flight 93 - was made from one of the airliner's toilets by passenger Edward Felt.
Glenn Cramer, the emergency supervisor who answered it, said on the day: "He was very distraught. He said he believed the plane was going down.
"He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where. And then we lost contact with him." Glenn Cramer has now been gagged by the FBI.
Also, according to sources, the last seconds of the cockpit voice recorder are the loud sounds of wind, hinting at a possible hole somewhere in the fuselage. What caused the smoke and explosion? Why the wind sounds?
The FBI's later explanation for the white jet was that a passing civilian Fairchild Falcon 20 jet was asked to descend from 34,000ft to 5,000ft some minutes after the crash to give co-ordinates for the site. The plane and pilot have never been produced or identified. Susan Mcelwain says a Falcon 20 was not the plane she saw.
FURTHER verification that some kind of military aircraft was operating in the area is scientifically irrefutable.
At 9.22am a sonic boom - caused by supersonic flight - was picked up by an earthquake monitoring station in southern Pennsylvania, 60 miles from Shanksville.
That Todd Beamer and others launched an assault on the hijackers there is no doubt. The brief extracts released from audio tapes indicate a fierce struggle going on at the cockpit door.
But nobody - official or otherwise - has categorically said the group got into the cockpit or that their actions led to the crash. Those final, agonising moments are mere presumption.
President Bush and his team have the whole story. So why aren't they telling the rest of us?
UA93: THE EVIDENCE
THE WITNESSES
At least SIX witnesses, including Susan Mcelwain saw a small military type plane flying around shortly BEFORE UA93 crashed. The FBI denies its existence
THE DEBRIS
The US Government insists the plane exploded on impact yet a one-ton section of the engine was found over a mile away and other light debris was found scattered over eight miles away
THE MOBILE CALL
Passenger Edward Felt made an emergency call from the plane. He spoke of an explosion and seeing some white smoke. The superviser who took the call has been gagged by the FBI
THE F-16s
UA93 was identified as a hijack at 9.16am. At 9.35am three F-16s were ordered to "protect the White House at all costs" when it turned towards the capital. At 10.06am it crashed at Shanksville, less than 10mins flying time from Washington
THE BLACK BOXS
Sources claim the last thing heard on the cockpit voice recorder is the sound of wind - suggesting the plane had been holed
THE SONIC BOOM
The FBI insists there was no military plane in the area but at 9.22am a sonic boom - caused by a supersonic jet - was picked up by an earthquake monitor in southern Pennsylvania, 60 miles away from Shanksville.
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Originally posted by Hooligan
I have a tape which shows the aircraft suddenly jerk as it passes the grassy knoll.
Hooligan
Thank you, Hooligan for not letting the law-abiding citizens to club to death the foreign goose like myself.
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back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the l.....
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Originally posted by john9001
the real story is,bush , who is a trained fighter pilot, was flown by air force one to a secert halaburton air base where he launched in a fighter and interceped the highjacked plane and shot it down.
This is possible if you take into account the character of the President and that burden of responsibility that could be taken off the Air Force rank-and-file would-be shooter.
This hypothesis can't be ruled out.
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back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the left....back....and to the l.....
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Originally posted by genozaur
I still can't believe these media reports. Sorry for that. Maybe my 2-year experience with the Soviet AA regiment gives me the wrong angle of view on this whole fable of UNDETECTABLE AND UNDESTRUCTIBLE FLIGHT 93.
You, Borada and miko ought to get together and write a book,
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Originally posted by genozaur
This is possible if you take into account the character of the President and that burden of responsibility that could be taken off the Air Force rank-and-file would-be shooter.
This hypothesis can't be ruled out.
Didn't you see F 9/11? The president was reading a book to kindergarteners while all this was happening.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Didn't you see F 9/11? The president was reading a book to kindergarteners while all this was happening.
body double.
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Originally posted by Martlet
body double.
Moore was wrong?:eek:
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body double. yep.
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Originally posted by JB88
lol holden.
you are clearly mad.
it wasnt the freemasons, it was the local moose lodge.
I am outraged and shocked at such a venomous statement, which is clearly out and out false.
On the day in question I was with Mr. Red Green and will testify that no such activiies such as these were discussed or carried out.
To the rest of the questions that will surely be the result of this, I will answer in advance............" I don`t recall".
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At 9.58am a 911 call - the last mobile phone contact from Flight 93 - was made from one of the airliner's toilets by passenger Edward Felt.
Eye witness news from a Airliner toilet with no windows?
Mrs Mcelwain, who looks after special needs children, is further convinced the whole truth has yet to come out because of a phone call she had within hours from the wife of an air force friend of the family.
Adds a sincere touch to something that comes from "The Daily Mirror"?
That Todd Beamer and others launched an assault on the hijackers there is no doubt. The brief extracts released from audio tapes indicate a fierce struggle going on at the cockpit door.
This is about the only truth to the whole thread!
"Lets Roll!"
Mac
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Originally posted by Mini D
This seems like an attempt to place conspiracy where there is none. Much like the Pentagon crash. Someone claimed that it would be easier for the government to launch a cruise missile at the pentagon and then dispose of a jet and all of it's passengers elsewhere than it would be for somoene to crash the plane into a building. All without anyone either spotting the missile, or hearing one whisper of a rumor in regards to disposing of an aircraft loaded with passengers.
It's amazing how intricate conspiracy theories get. It's amazing how theorists assume that it's simple to keep everyone involved quiet. It just doesn't work that way... anywhere.
There seems to be a severe lacking of evidence presented on both sides of the fence, particularly with the pentagon crash.
Considering what is at stake.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Ah... gotcha genozaur. Though, you do realize your whole argument is based on 1) not believing the media and 2) your own ignorance.
If this would have been an active duty pilot, you'd have more of an argument. You obviously don't understand the defense role of the Air National Guard.
As for how the plan was/wasn't found... the problem is you're only reading media reports. Of course it's going to be confusing because the media is... are you ready for this?... NEVER accurate.
This seems like an attempt to place conspiracy where there is none. Much like the Pentagon crash. Someone claimed that it would be easier for the government to launch a cruise missile at the pentagon and then dispose of a jet and all of it's passengers elsewhere than it would be for somoene to crash the plane into a building. All without anyone either spotting the missile, or hearing one whisper of a rumor in regards to disposing of an aircraft loaded with passengers.
It's amazing how intricate conspiracy theories get. It's amazing how theorists assume that it's simple to keep everyone involved quiet. It just doesn't work that way... anywhere.
Dear Mini D, I am one of the best of the intuitive information analysts in this small world. The fact that I'm lazy enough to not feed you with the prechewed factography does not bother me a bit. There are some good guys out there who can fulfill your daydream. Just read the following :
UA93: THE EVIDENCE
THE WITNESSES
At least SIX witnesses, including Susan Mcelwain saw a small military type plane flying around shortly BEFORE UA93 crashed. The FBI denies its existence
THE DEBRIS
The US Government insists the plane exploded on impact yet a one-ton section of the engine was found over a mile away and other light debris was found scattered over eight miles away
THE MOBILE CALL
Passenger Edward Felt made an emergency call from the plane. He spoke of an explosion and seeing some white smoke. The superviser who took the call has been gagged by the FBI
THE F-16s
UA93 was identified as a hijack at 9.16am. At 9.35am three F-16s were ordered to "protect the White House at all costs" when it turned towards the capital. At 10.06am it crashed at Shanksville, less than 10mins flying time from Washington
THE BLACK BOXS
Sources claim the last thing heard on the cockpit voice recorder is the sound of wind - suggesting the plane had been holed
THE SONIC BOOM
The FBI insists there was no military plane in the area but at 9.22am a sonic boom - caused by a supersonic jet - was picked up by an earthquake monitor in southern Pennsylvania, 60 miles away from Shanksville.
[Courtesy of JB88 (thank you, man)]
Mini D, if you can read more than a page of text a day, I would recommend you to read the whole article provided by JB88 and the information posted here by Hooligan.
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pentagon strike - flash animaton (http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm)
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Originally posted by Sox62
Gee,what about the pilot who shot it down?Or the ATC who guided him to it?How about the radio transmissions from the fighter?What about the HUD tape,where did it go?
Military men are ordered to keep some facts secret, and they really do it and take it quite seriously.
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IMAGINATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN KNOWLEDGE...
Albert Einstein
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)
WHEN I HEAR THE WORD "CULTURE" I REACH FOR MY GUN. (c. 1939)
Hans Johst
German propagandist (1870 - 1978), recipient of NSDAP Prize for Arts and Sciences (1935)
WHEN IN DOUBT, PISS ON IT!
MacMaw
U.S Army Retired (1975-1995)
:aok
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I can read what you wrote quite clearly genozaur. It none of it adds up to anything. As a matter of fact, most of it conflicts itself... but that's besides the point.
I find it funny that people have detailed descriptions of what was said by a person with a gag order placed on them. Of course, I also find it odd that 90% of what you read here is generated by some atonomous soul at the end of a keyboard. I find it odd that so many people simply must believe this to be true to prove how adept they are.
You're basically saying that the U.S. government and U.S. military working in conjunction with the civil authorities to instantly cover up a jet being shot down by fighters. I thought our current government was supposed to be incompetent?
Oh yeah... Maybe Eagl will stop by this thread and enlighten you on how many active duty fighters are on alert in the lower 48 states as compared to national guard aircraft. And... what the likelyhood of any military fighter not on active alert having armed missiles pre-loaded. And... even how long it would take to take missiles from the ammo bunker, trailer it to the aircraft and then load it. And... what kind of clearence would be necessary and exactly how much communication would be taking place prior to shooting down a civilian passenger liner.
I do believe you're speaking with little to no experience or actual knowledge on that particular subject. At the core of things, that's why most of these theories become easy to believe... people simply don't know any better.
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Originally posted by JB88
pentagon strike - flash animaton (http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm)
Here's another strange thing. I wasn't really following the newscast on this side of 9-11, so without the critical information mass I can now only say NO COMMENT.
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Okay I'm going to do some hole shooting in the paper theory here.
Woman says "the plane is at 40-50ft above my minivan"
No.
It seems like the airplane entered a dive, the hijackers being not the most experienced pilots around overstress the aircraft and in the process dislodge an engine from its mounts, this ruins the balance and thrust of the airplane. Hijackers still adding G's to the airplane to get it out of the dive don't compensate for asymmetrical thrust and wind up accelerating the airplanes rate of roll and before you know it...its in the dirt.
A small jet with 2 rear engines and a spoiler like that of a car sounds like an Adam A700, but that wasn't in the area because there's only prototypes built after 9/11. An unmanned air force drone? maybe. I bet looking straight up at this airplane she could confuse the upside down V tail of a predator for what she thinks she saw.
How much of this story is absolutely true if the woman clames an airplane was flying 40-50 ft above her head...thats low. Too damn low. So low there isn't any reason to fly that low unless you're approaching/departing an airport. I don't buy into this woman's description for a minute. I've read too many accident reports where turboprops had their engines sputtering or 'revving' like a car engine...it doesn't work like that. She might mean well, but she isn't close to accurate.
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Originally posted by AWMac
IMAGINATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN KNOWLEDGE...
Albert Einstein
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)
WHEN I HEAR THE WORD "CULTURE" I REACH FOR MY GUN. (c. 1939)
Hans Johst
German propagandist (1870 - 1978), recipient of NSDAP Prize for Arts and Sciences (1935)
WHEN IN DOUBT, PISS ON IT!
MacMaw
U.S Army Retired (1975-1995)
:aok
NEVER PISS AGAINST THE WIND.
(Russian saying since the times immemorial)
And I have no doubts that the wind is blowing,
even if it's only 5 miles per hour.
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the problem I have with this theory is that if the USAF did bring that plane down I would have preferred that instead of the plane crashing into the white house. I do not have a problem with USAF or USN , MARINES or USCG doing it. A neccessary thing imo.
Also, all the evidence does seem to support an attempted faulire by passenger to take the plane back.
The only problem would be if the passenger did indeed manage to take the plane back (very unlikely) and were then shot down by the USAF. Even then it would be an tragically unfortunate mistake.
Whats the big deal again?
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Originally posted by Mini D
At the core of things, that's why most of these theories become easy to believe... people simply don't know any better.
I believe insanity plays a greater role here...
This thread is typical of the insane 911 WTC rigged to blow, pentagon hit by cruise missle, etc etc 911 consipracy theories. I always wonder what kind of garbage these lunatics would come up with if the WTC strikes werent videotaped and showqn on live TV. Heck even with all those planes hitting the towers some propose elaborate theories that WTC towers were rigged with explosives beforehand.
genozaur you are a lunatic, seek help...
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Originally posted by Golfer
Okay I'm going to do some hole shooting in the paper theory here.
Woman says "the plane is at 40-50ft above my minivan"
No.
It seems like the airplane entered a dive, the hijackers being not the most experienced pilots around overstress the aircraft and in the process dislodge an engine from its mounts, this ruins the balance and thrust of the airplane. Hijackers still adding G's to the airplane to get it out of the dive don't compensate for asymmetrical thrust and wind up accelerating the airplanes rate of roll and before you know it...its in the dirt.
A small jet with 2 rear engines and a spoiler like that of a car sounds like an Adam A700, but that wasn't in the area because there's only prototypes built after 9/11. An unmanned air force drone? maybe. I bet looking straight up at this airplane she could confuse the upside down V tail of a predator for what she thinks she saw.
How much of this story is absolutely true if the woman clames an airplane was flying 40-50 ft above her head...thats low. Too damn low. So low there isn't any reason to fly that low unless you're approaching/departing an airport. I don't buy into this woman's description for a minute. I've read too many accident reports where turboprops had their engines sputtering or 'revving' like a car engine...it doesn't work like that. She might mean well, but she isn't close to accurate.
Hey Golfer, I'm glad to hear for the first time in this thread some balanced criticism without any
flee search in the opponent's behind.
Your explaination of the aeromechanics of the engine loss sounds convincingly enough, but it looks like it can be mainly applied in the case of
full (in one piece) rip off of the engine from its
mounts. Yet what we have here is a one-ton section of one of the engines. [THE DEBRIS
The US Government insists the plane exploded on impact yet a one-ton section of the engine was found over a mile away and other light debris was found scattered over eight miles away].
Still your theory about the forced dislodging of the engine off its mounts could be validated if there is evidence that before finally hitting the dirt and while the plane was still flying at a very low altitude one of the plane's engines came into contact with the top of the high tree, for instance. I guess such a forced contact, if it really occured, could lead to the partial (one section only) rip off.
But I can't be of real help on this one because I still haven't read the official investigation records which are supposed to be somewhere in the public domain today after over the three years since the tragic event. I wonder if your smart bellybutton is aware of existence of such records available to the general public. Or are they still hidden under the cloak of top secrecy ? What do you expect of ordinary people who were not given sufficient information about this tragedy ?
I guess you prefer to punch holes in the "stupid" paper theories than to dig to the core of the matter in this case.
The rest of your "reasoning" is plainly and simply worse than the paper theory itself as it may seem to you.
Can you at least agree that "a mile away" one-ton section of the engine SHOULD BE OFFICIALLY AND WIDELY EXPLAINED TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. I wouldn't care much if it is a lie. The much bigger problem is that the government of this country has started to think that its subjects don't have to be given any explainations at all.
And if you doubt anything you become dubious.
:cool:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I believe insanity plays a greater role here...
This thread is typical of the insane 911 WTC rigged to blow, pentagon hit by cruise missle, etc etc 911 consipracy theories. I always wonder what kind of garbage these lunatics would come up with if the WTC strikes werent videotaped and showqn on live TV. Heck even with all those planes hitting the towers some propose elaborate theories that WTC towers were rigged with explosives beforehand.
genozaur you are a lunatic, seek help...
Meine Liebe Grunherz, I haven't found a funny yota of any sense at all in your post. If you are obsessed with lunatics please do visit lunatic asylum. It may help, or maybe not.
I'm proud of you though because you never ever piss against the wind. I guess it makes you a wise man.
:p
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Here is some interesting reading genozaur. It may help to understand the wall you are going to be banging your head against. It starts off slow, but it heats up.
http://www.911-strike.com/debunking.htm
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flight 93 (http://www.flight93crash.com/)
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Originally posted by Mini D
....
You're basically saying that the U.S. government and U.S. military working in conjunction with the civil authorities to instantly cover up a jet being shot down by fighters. I thought our current government was supposed to be incompetent?
Oh yeah... Maybe Eagl will stop by this thread and enlighten you on how many active duty fighters are on alert in the lower 48 states as compared to national guard aircraft. And... what the likelyhood of any military fighter not on active alert having armed missiles pre-loaded. And... even how long it would take to take missiles from the ammo bunker, trailer it to the aircraft and then load it. And... what kind of clearence would be necessary and exactly how much communication would be taking place prior to shooting down a civilian passenger liner.
I do believe you're speaking with little to no experience or actual knowledge on that particular subject. At the core of things, that's why most of these theories become easy to believe... people simply don't know any better.
Mini D, I can't care less about you and your current government. I am talking about the unnecessary secrecy in the rightful military matters. If the plane in question was really shot down by the USAF, it was, in my opinion, the absolutely necessary military action. But what followed this action could have been the most ill-advised political crap in this country's recent history. And I would like to know the names of those advisers. If you don't want to know nothing about this, it's your minor problem.
And I also can't care less about my "little to no"
(as you put it) experience in getting clearance and all for shooting down a civilian airliner hijacked by the terrorists with the intention of using it as a flying bomb. If it takes forty minutes to do that, your current government can without any regrets retire the whole Air wing of your military. It'll save a lot of taxpayers' monies.
:D
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Here is some interesting reading genozaur. It may help to understand the wall you are going to be banging your head against. It starts off slow, but it heats up.
http://www.911-strike.com/debunking.htm
Thank you, White Hawk. Nice read !
I can already feel the bumps on my head after just posting a couple of innocent questions on these BBs. Don't start me talking about the Soviet totalitarian state. What a nice country it was.
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Still your theory about the forced dislodging of the engine off its mounts could be validated if there is evidence that before finally hitting the dirt and while the plane was still flying at a very low altitude one of the plane's engines came into contact with the top of the high tree, for instance. I guess such a forced contact, if it really occured, could lead to the partial (one section only) rip off.
Ok, please tell me exactly which 'ton' of parts of the 12,700lb Pratt PW2040 engine wound up a mile away from the crash site.
Please tell me your experience dealing with aviation accidents and inflight breakups.
Please tell me which institution you escaped from in order to believe any of the garbage conspiracy theorists are feeding you. When an airplane is moving at Vwaytoofast parts start coming off. Engines overspeed when too much air is rushed into them and can cause a whole engine section to go spewing out.
All I did was try to offer you a perfectly viable alternative to your wacko way of thinking but instead of saying "oh, that could be a possiblity" you duck and cover while sticking your head in the sand and scream "NOOOooOooOO, it can't be I am right!"
Can you at least agree that "a mile away" one-ton section of the engine SHOULD BE OFFICIALLY AND WIDELY EXPLAINED TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. I wouldn't care much if it is a lie. The much bigger problem is that the government of this country has started to think that its subjects don't have to be given any explainations at all.
I'm really gonna shoot you to the moon with this one...
I don't think they need to explain anything to me. I have an inherent trust and faith in the government that the right knowledge is getting to the right people. 9/11 is gone and overwith. How the hijackers did what they did and all the in flight details which I am sure the government knows have no business being in my hands. I think its good to keep those ideas out of the hands of knuckleheads like you and simply let you toot your horns about a conspiracy theory. I think that with what the government knows about how the terrorists took the aircraft and how they acted in flight could save lives in the future should it happen again. Its better to keep it safely under wraps because what good would it be to release a "how to" manual for hijacking an airliner?
(Insert "You are a tool" photograph here)
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Lets not argue or reason with the lunatics, just ridicule them...
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"Lets not argue or reason with the lunatics, just ridicule them..." - grunherz
i couldnt agree more (http://edstrong.blog-city.com/read/821830.htm)
and more (http://binarycircumstance.typepad.com/bc_blog/2004/08/more_on_george_.html)
and moore ... lol (http://davidcogswell.com/Reviews/BushCouch.html)
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Yep, just keep thinking that and your side will keep loosing elections and elections and electipons...
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electipons too!? - oh dear lord.
note. you might read some of my other posts so that you might grasp that i have always fallen solidly in the republican party until dubya. i actually drove in a motorcade for the guy in your avitar.
pull!!!!!
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his hands were very soft and sorta chilly btw.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep, just keep thinking that and your side will keep loosing elections and elections and electipons...
Exactly.
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standard party line.
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Originally posted by JB88
standard party line.
Yep. And the absolute truth.
Keep yawning. I look forward to watching Romney's inauguration in 4 years.
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okey doke.
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Originally posted by JB88
okey doke.
Someone's in need of a PEST counseling session.
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bravo lima oscar whiskey.
:cool:
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ok, please tell me exactly which 'ton' of parts of the 12,700lb Pratt PW2040 engine wound up a mile away from the crash site.
Please tell me your experience dealing with aviation accidents and inflight breakups.
Please tell me which institution you escaped from in order to believe any of the garbage conspiracy theorists are feeding you. When an airplane is moving at Vwaytoofast parts start coming off. Engines overspeed when too much air is rushed into them and can cause a whole engine section to go spewing out.
All I did was try to offer you a perfectly viable alternative to your wacko way of thinking but instead of saying "oh, that could be a possiblity" you duck and cover while sticking your head in the sand and scream "NOOOooOooOO, it can't be I am right!"
I'm really gonna shoot you to the moon with this one...
I don't think they need to explain anything to me. I have an inherent trust and faith in the government that the right knowledge is getting to the right people. 9/11 is gone and overwith. How the hijackers did what they did and all the in flight details which I am sure the government knows have no business being in my hands. I think its good to keep those ideas out of the hands of knuckleheads like you and simply let you toot your horns about a conspiracy theory. I think that with what the government knows about how the terrorists took the aircraft and how they acted in flight could save lives in the future should it happen again. Its better to keep it safely under wraps because what good would it be to release a "how to" manual for hijacking an airliner?
(Insert "You are a tool" photograph here)
Golfer, I am here on these BBs as a totally private person independent of any organizational affiliation and I don't voice any conspiracy theorists here. Until today I haven't even heard about any conspiracy theory concerning (I quote the Secretary of the Defense) the "shooting down" of the Flight 93 Airliner on 9-11. My very limited experience with the shooting down of the civilian airliners
(only one fake passenger spyplane and one stray cargo plane involved in Col. North's affair)
may be a big drawback in my "aviation accidents and inflight breakups" expertise. So I was ready to hear the word of experts on it.
But instead of that I see angry mob attacking my personal opinion in this matter. And more than that, some guys like you are trying to ascribe to me conspiracy theory about that fateful Flight 93. I am telling you with utmost sincerity that my personal conclusions drawn from the press and TV news just happen to coincide with the general aspects of one of your hated conspiracy theories. But the very fact that my personal and fully independent conclusions in this particular matter (I have never heard a word or read a single line about Flight 93 conspiracy theory before the guys like yourself started to accuse me in being the "tool" for it) speaks for itself. There's no smoke without the fire. Something IS wrong with the picture the general public is presented with.
And how dare you to shamelessly accuse me of being some kind of the "tool" when my daughter barely escaped becoming a victim of the events of 9-11 ? Or maybe you walked hundreds of Manhattan city blocks uptown and then downtown on 9-11 trying to get home from work like I did? Did you see the first smoke coming out of the WTC and hear the direct radiobroadcast when the Towers were collapsing?. Were you walking, exausted from the heat, down the streets of Manhattan on that day and were you thanking the Manhattanites, both the immigrants and the US-born citizens, who offered free to everybody the water from their stores and the lemonade from the make-shift stands? Were you smelling that horrible smoke from the WTC on 9-11 or were you inhaling it for the next several months, that smoke filled with the health-threatening particles and with the whiffs of burned human bodies ? Or maybe you were desperately trying to reach your loved ones over the cell phone that went dead?
How you dare ?! May be you tell all those people who now suffer from the inhalation of that smoke why the head of the Environment Protection Agency lied to them about the "harmlessness" of that smoke?
Shut up Golfer, stick your tongue into your ace-hole, and just listen to what other people say.
And I don't want to discuss with you the direct link of the airplane engine swept by the g-force
to the "how to" manual for the terrorists. There's obviously absolutely no link between these two things.
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Originally posted by JB88
bravo lima oscar whiskey.
:cool:
Alpha Bravo, Charlie Mike...
<--- TSSBI SCI Access
Don't try to feed me watermelon and I won't hand any back.
genozaur
Yer crap is unfounded...so stick yer head back into yer asss.
Mac
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Originally posted by AWMac
Alpha Bravo, Charlie Mike...
<--- TSSBI SCI Access
Don't try to feed me watermelon and I won't hand any back.
genozaur
Yer crap is unfounded...so stick yer head back into yer asss.
Mac
AWMAC, have you forgotten to open yer eyes when you tryed to read my first post at the beginning of this thread ?
The crappin' dude was and is Mr "Rum". If you don't like to dig his crap you are free to stay away from it. But don't you turn that thing upside down just in order to make MY QUESTIONS look "unfounded". They have the solid foundation in the "Rum"'s crap.
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And how dare you to shamelessly accuse me of being some kind of the "tool" when my daughter barely escaped becoming a victim of the events of 9-11 ? Or maybe you walked hundreds of Manhattan city blocks uptown and then downtown on 9-11 trying to get home from work like I did? Did you see the first smoke coming out of the WTC and hear the direct radiobroadcast when the Towers were collapsing?.
You have no shame. I'm not going to degrade the events to satisfy you with a mudslinging contest just because you're already dirty.
I will say that I did start my semester late because I was wearing a glove and respirator. But I'm sure you'd think that was just playing in a sandbox. Or a good friend from high school who was working that summer in the WTC and it was their last week of work before going to I think NYU. I don't need to tell you what happened to her.
You sir, have achieved the highest attainable level of the designation salamander. You arrogant bastard, who the hell are you to tell anyone what to do. From the start I wasn't taking sides, simply adding another point of view for speculation using some knowledge of aviation and how a pilot of roughly their skill level might react in a situation.
I won't lie, I don't buy into the flight was shot down. I was also adding that an eyewitness report is not always what it seems, in fact even with a background in aviation they need to be taken with a grain of salt and definitely not at face value.
My first post was written completely objectively and mentioned no names, from then on you engaged in libelous writing against me as though I'd offended you in some way.
What goes around comes around, and I'm telling you to go **** yourself. Whether or not that bursts your fun balloon, hurts your feelings or brings down your happy thermometer a few notches I couldn't care less. How dare you try to play a game of oneupsmanship using 9/11 as a playing card. How dare you desecrate the memories of those that didn't survive. More people lost more friends than I did that day, and how would they feel or how would you feel if someone tried to boast about what it was like without knowing any facts
I don't want to see that day happen again but frankly a full and detailed report PUBLISHED publically on the events before/during/after the attack would do nothing but list what the terrorists did right and what they shouldn't do next time. If you think they can't learn from their mistakes, you are sadly mistaken. If you think they wouldn't use such a report against us, you are also grossly naive.
dick.
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Originally posted by genozaur
I don't voice any conspiracy theorists here.
You contributed so many but this is clearly the most ridiculous and false thing you said in this thread...
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Now you're talking, Golfer.
And there weren't much talk before.
I feel sorry for your friend at the WTC.
----------------------------------------------
Nobody demands the full AND DETAILED report. But a lot of things which are in no way useful for terrorists can and should be explained.
And particularly the enigmatic phrase by Mr Rumsfeld, that conspiracy theory propagandist (you can't deny that his words have added a lot of fuel oil to the already heated debate as it appeares).
And I call this guy Mr "Rum" not because I hate him, despise him or anything of the kind, but because these are the BBs and the shortening of the name is the usual way of avoiding multiple repetitions. And besides it, this draws more attention to the discussed toplc, and also brings an element of fun in otherwise dry distant conversation. So much for the lengthy deviation from the topic of this thread.
BUT MY QUESTIONS STILL LINGER UNANSWERED BECAUSE UNEXPECTEDLY FOR MYSELF I HAVE STEPPED ON AN ANTIPERSONNEL MINE. AND MOST OF THE COMRADES IN ARMS AROUND ME ARE SIMPLY AFRAID TO COME UP ANY CLOSER TO ME AND TO MY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS.
I THANK VERY MUCH THE SUPPORT TEAM
OF "MONSTER CONSPIRACY THEORISTS". MY SPECIAL THANKS GO TO Mr JB88.
I CLOSE UP MY PART OF DISCUSSION HERE BECAUSE I CAN'T REASON WITH THE SCARED CIVILIANS WHO ARE STILL IN SHOCK AFTER THE EVENTS OF 9-11.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You contributed so many but this is clearly the most ridiculous and false thing you said in this thread...
GRUNHERZ, you are a blockhead.
Thanks God, you are enjoying it.
Go drink your warm milk and go to bed.
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Is it true that people who use only CAPS have little dicks?
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Its hillariously funny how a guy who thinks the USAF is behind the 911 flight 93 crash and wont tell us about it for some mysterious reason and belives that Rummy is using this "secret" to blackmail Bush into keeping him on as Sec. Defense actually says that he cannot reason with us because we are the ones who are "scared."
:rofl
Really this guy has got to be a troll or is an all out nut. Look how he says that he never read anything about any 93 conspiracy until after we started attacking his views in this thread - yet his first post had a link to a 911 flight 93 conspiracy and he even claimed - in his own words - that Rummy was using this "secret" to keep his Job..
So which is it? Are you a lunatic or a troll? Maybe just a liar?
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Originally posted by Lizking
Is it true that people who use only CAPS have little dicks?
She never complained.
But I am absolutely sure that you, my dear Lizking will be adorned in your next life with a big hairy female hole. :D
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click click,
click click,
click click,
click click,
pull!
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This is not the Twilight Zone marathon party I was looking for.......................... ............................. .
............................. .............................
................but damn close.
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My gorge is beginning to rise.
Eeeaassyy stomach! Don't turn over now!
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If the plane had to be brought down by the airforce why is it neccesary to reveal that to the world?
I really really really dont see the blackmail value of the information even if true. Bushes approval rating would go up not down if he had to order it.
Imagine how well that would debunk the listening to the school kids thing if he said.
"Ya I left the school room and rhumsfeld was on the phone. There was another plane that appeared to be part of the plot it was not answering calls and heading towards DC. Can we bring it down in time I asked. Yes assured the secretary. Do so and keep me informed, Im moving to Airforce 1."
the number of bush supporters that would be upset by such a story is 0. The number of bush haters that would support him would be signifiganlty greater then 0.
All of the 911 planes were subject to shoot down orders. If the F15s headed to newyork had gone supersonic over civi areas they would have maybe had a chance to stop one of the WTC planes.
If one was brought down. Why say so. The inevitable next question is who was the pilot that killed all those americans.
the best thing to do is to keep the enemy guessing and honor the heros that resisted on that plane.
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i have to disagree that it would go up if they admitted it now. hes on a pretty tenuous string as it is. getting caught in a lie, for better or for worse, would be pretty bad brahmen. it would just be fuel for the fire. i find that most of my friends who are bush supporters are actually reluctant to really think that he has a clue. its more party line than anything. they are happy however to see that powell has finally been given something to do...sorry to see him leaving.
that said, i agree that it would have been the thing to do. sadly.
interesting fact. the troops that fired on the protesters in tienamen square had to be brought in from another rural part of china because the local troops refused to comply with the order.
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Oh yeah... Maybe Eagl will stop by this thread and enlighten you on how many active duty fighters are on alert in the lower 48 states as compared to national guard aircraft. And... what the likelyhood of any military fighter not on active alert having armed missiles pre-loaded. And... even how long it would take to take missiles from the ammo bunker, trailer it to the aircraft and then load it. And... what kind of clearence would be necessary and exactly how much communication would be taking place prior to shooting down a civilian passenger liner.
I can answer some of those.
When I was stationed at Seymour Johnson AFB in the early 80's we had 104 F-4E Phantom II's assigned to 4 active duty squadrons. We had 4 F-4D Phantom II's from the Michigan Air National Guard that had alert duty. (As long as I was stationed there NO active duty F-4 sat on alert). Although while stationed in Alaska all the alert jets there were active duty jets. Four of our 27 fighters were ALWAYS on 5 minute alert.
Live missiles loaded on non-alert aircraft? Doesn't happen as a general rule. Obvious exception would be an aircraft being loaded as a replacement for an alert bird.
How long would it take to get missiles trailered to a fighter to load them? Depends on the base in question really. Using my own personal experiences in the USAF......at Seymour Johnson I never saw a live munition. All the munitions we loaded were inert. I suspect live air to air missiles would have had to be taken from their shipping crates and put on a trailer first. At Elemendorf AFB in Alaska all we loaded were live munitions. The munitions guys there would simply hook up to a preloaded trailer and be delivering said trailer on the flight line in under 10 minutes.
How long to load the missiles? Depends on the crew assigned to do the loading. A load crew that I was the crew chief on could have loaded an F-15 with 8 missiles and 940 rnds of HEI ammunition in 15 - 20 minutes. USAF standards at that time gave us about 45 minutes to get the job done iirc.
Also, Geno you mentioned the possiblity of AA batteries being used in an earlier post. Highly unlikely imo given the fact that unlike the Soviets, America doesnt have sam batteries set up around the countryside *just in case*.
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Quick put on you tin foil hat.... They know more than you think. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sox62
Gee,what about the pilot who shot it down?Or the ATC who guided him to it?How about the radio transmissions from the fighter?What about the HUD tape,where did it go?
Bush was the pilot, Rummy was working the radar. They kept the transmissins for themselves, and masturbate to them late at night.
-Sik
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silkboy, are you suggesting that there might be some sort of secret executive circle jerk?
hmmmm. interesting theory.
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OH!
The flight recorder show a bit of a different story! Better took it up!
(I still don't like old Rummey!)
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posting this again .
http://www.flight93crash.com/ (http://www.flight93crash.com/)
a very balanced, very thorough investigation.
for those of you who think that this is nutjob thinking, the only thing that i can imagine is that you are either suffering from some form of denial and/or you are not interested in the possibility of changing your minds about something once you have made it up... pr you are just feeding on media swag and passing it off as reality or you are just plain defending for the sake of defending.
the question that was originally posed...is rummy holding onto his job due to complicity in events which have been covered up. from which springs the question...did flight 193 get shot down or did it crash...and was rummy's slip of the tongue an indicator of that truth.
i happen to think that it did get shot down but its not because i am a nutjob.
it was my first natural instict. the more that i followed it, the more that i felt that it might not have happened the way that they said.
this is more about knowledge for me.
personally, id rather have a little knowledge and curiosity than ignorance and/or denial working for me.
just read it.
at least read the summary.
it IS a relevant and interesting question. sort of like whitewater perhaps?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its hillariously funny how a guy who thinks the USAF is behind the 911 flight 93 crash and wont tell us about it for some mysterious reason and belives that Rummy is using this "secret" to blackmail Bush into keeping him on as Sec. Defense actually says that he cannot reason with us because we are the ones who are "scared."
:rofl
Really this guy has got to be a troll or is an all out nut. Look how he says that he never read anything about any 93 conspiracy until after we started attacking his views in this thread - yet his first post had a link to a 911 flight 93 conspiracy and he even claimed - in his own words - that Rummy was using this "secret" to keep his Job..
So which is it? Are you a lunatic or a troll? Maybe just a liar?
Sorry to disturb your authority in all the wordly things, but can you for only one second imagine that I read a one-sentence-long article in one of the New York's newspapers (must be the New York Post, but I'm not sure), then run a Hotbot search on the topic and for your convenience copied the first available link which contained more than one-line-long header.
And now the famous anti-conspiracy theorist GRUNHERZ has promoted me to the rank of Monster "Nut Troll".
I guess that if he read in a neo-Nazi magazine that der Fuhrer is dead he wouldn't believe it because that magazine is no good.
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Thank you, Elfie.
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Hi JB ! Your post about the guys in total denial is the bull's eye shot.
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You better run and hide,right now.
We have dispatched the black helicopters.
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Originally posted by Sox62
You better run and hide,right now.
We have dispatched the black helicopters.
they better be well armed.
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Originally posted by Sox62
You better run and hide,right now.
We have dispatched the black helicopters.
You should had done it on 9-11, Sucks92.
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Originally posted by genozaur
You should had done it on 9-11, Sucks92.
Bwahahaha!!!
Very witty!!!
I'm sure those who have lost family on 9/11 will appreciate your rapier wit.
Sucks when you have to resort to insults when your argument is weak,doesn't it?
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Originally posted by Sox62
Sucks when you have to resort to insults when your argument is weak,doesn't it?
"Really this guy has got to be a troll or is an all out nut. Look how he says that he never read anything about any 93 conspiracy until after we started attacking his views in this thread"
"Is it true that people who use only CAPS have little dicks?"
"genozaur
Yer crap is unfounded...so stick yer head back into yer asss."
""Lets not argue or reason with the lunatics, just ridicule them..."
"genozaur you are a lunatic, seek help..."
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Originally posted by Sox62
Bwahahaha!!!
Very witty!!!
I'm sure those who have lost family on 9/11 will appreciate your rapier wit.
Sucks when you have to resort to insults when your argument is weak,doesn't it?
Sox, you started it. Or maybe you already forgot that YOU were trying to be witty ?
And BTW, I did not have any argument with you.
Sorry for misspelling your name. What's your name again ?
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Some of the things said dont add up. Some things said were later retracted. I think some of the confusion on that fateful day is to be expected. No one ever anticipated a terrorist attack of that magnitude.
The only reason I can think of for the gov't to NOT tell us if they did in fact shoot down flight 93 is the possiblity of the *heros* taking flight 93 out of the equation.
How could you not shoot down a civilian airliner that had obviously been hijacked and was headed towards Washington DC or any other heavy population center?
I admit, I would not relish the thought of being the one to have to issue such an order, nor would I want to be the one to have to carry out such an order.
That said, links provided in this post have not provided any proof of flight 93's demise, they only speculate.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Sox, you started it. Or maybe you already forgot that YOU were trying to be witty ?
And BTW, I did not have any argument with you.
Sorry for misspelling your name. What's your name again ?
Show me where I made a personal insult.
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Originally posted by JB88
they better be well armed.
They are.
We have equipped them with Phaser technology that we removed from the UFO we have at Area 51.
You are doomed.
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Originally posted by Sox62
Show me where I made a personal insult.
You have just joined a heated argument, bringing in some unpleasant threats against MY PERSON.
To rebuff you with a personal tongue-twister was the lesser of my sins.
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well said elfie. i think you hit upon something important with the "hero" statement espescially.
but wouldnt you agree that some of these events are odd? speculative yes. but so are the theories on the kennedy assasination. most of us have a theory and i am guessing that at least half have come around to think that it probably wasnt just oswald. though it is always easy to laugh at those whose natural curiosity extends beyond what big brother says, it is extremely vital that we question it.
in reference to kennedy...someone willingly denied our vote for thier own interest. were people not to question it or authority in general, the world would get ugly enough that some idiot might actually get a chance to call out the copters.
and frankly, i find the joke itself to be funny...but the reality of it, the possibility... is so totally un-american.
end rant.
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Originally posted by genozaur
You have just joined a heated argument, bringing in some unpleasant threats against MY PERSON.
To rebuff you with a personal tongue-twister was the lesser of my sins.
I have?
Where.
Feel free to quote and report them.
But much like your theory,they don't actually exist.
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Question to those slaming the author of this thread.
have you read any of the material that i have posted?
just curious.
if i am wrong to think that there is something there, i would like to see those rebutted. (and not just in a "pick out one flaw, debunk the whole concept" way either. that wont convince me.
thanks in advance.
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Often one flaw can debunk a whole concept.
Ignoring what people have said isn't the same as winning an argument.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Often one flaw can debunk a whole concept.
Ignoring what people have said isn't the same as winning an argument.
i agree that it can debunk a "specific" concept. but not that eliminating a small part of an arguement can alleviate the problem presented in the initial question.
ignoring what people have said is not only not the same as winning, it is outright non participation.
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Originally posted by JB88
i agree that it can debunk a "specific" concept. but not that eliminating a small part of an arguement can alleviate the problem presented in the initial question.
ignoring what people have said is not only not the same as winning, it is outright non participation.
Certainly it can. I don't know what mythical reasoning rules you use.
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in order for this to occur one would have to assume that the question itself was voided by proof that the subject is beyond question.
this has not been done.
that is how arguements are won.
when you have shifted my opinion.
unless of course, you are a party liner who accepts the party output as fact, in which case, you are not actually arguing, you are simply repeating the mantra without grasping its meaning or relevance. i will simply ignore such things because they are mechanisms for distribution...and mechanisms dont think.
mythology is an entirely seperate subject... unless you were suggesting that the arguements being made are matters of "myth", but i didnt gleen that from the content of your last arguement as you have yet to actually argue the material that i have presented which i feel presents a strong arguement for believing that the events of that disaster which are being promoted by the government are in fact false.
and that rumsfeld knows it.
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Originally posted by JB88
in order for this to occur one would have to assume that the question itself was voided by proof that the subject is beyond question.
this has not been done.
that is how arguements are won.
when you have shifted my opinion.
unless of course, you are a party liner who accepts the party output as fact, in which case, you are not actually arguing, you are simply repeating the mantra without grasping its meaning or relevance. i will simply ignore such things because they are mechanisms for distribution...and mechanisms dont think.
mythology is an entirely seperate subject... unless you were suggesting that the arguements being made are matters of "myth", but i didnt gleen that from the content of your last arguement as you have yet to actually argue the material that i have presented which i feel presents a strong arguement for believing that the events of that disaster which are being promoted by the government are in fact false.
and that rumsfeld knows it.
And it ends with the straw man.
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Originally posted by JB88
Question to those slaming the author of this thread.
have you read any of the material that i have posted?
just curious.
if i am wrong to think that there is something there, i would like to see those rebutted. (and not just in a "pick out one flaw, debunk the whole concept" way either. that wont convince me.
thanks in advance.
I have read pretty much all of the various 911 conspiracy theories on the web, from bombs in the WTC towers, to pentagon cruise missles, UFO's taking flight 77 (yep! - thats what they say happend to the "Pentagon" flight), and yes to the crazy flight 93 theories too. In thew end I found all of them to be written by:
Insane People
Lunatics
Liars
Idiots
USA haters
Bush haters
The ignorant
The naive
The uninformed
The uneducated
these theores are then are believed and spred further by varous members of the same groups listed above.
Further, the belivers always ask please just "disprove" these intestiung theories - which is clearly impossible. Nobody can disprove that super secret demolition bombs were secretly planted by unnamed secret parties in the WTC towers for example. Nobody can disprove the idea that Flight 93 was shot down by a secret fighter plane, by a secret and unnamed pilot, by a secret order, from a secret this and a sectet that... Its just insane. Its also imposible to disprove it because they want to belive. But in the end, it all comes down to this simple fact - it is your task to prove your wackly theories, not to ask others to disprove them.
If you dont do that, well, threads like this is all u will ever get.
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Dont know why GRUN always gets so upset, USA is´nt even your country, what would you care?
Anyway, so what if the US Airforce took that plane out?
Lawyers smell money as Rats smell blood
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Originally posted by patrone
Dont know why GRUN always gets so upset, USA is´nt even your country, what would you care?
LOL! It's typicaly that a xenophobic racist western european could never imagine that a nation would welcome immigrants and take them in as full and natural citizens...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL! It's typicaly that a xenophobic racist western european could never imagine that a nation would welcome immigrants and take them in as full and natural citizens...
Its not about being a citizen, GRUN.
You always be a Yugoslavian Serb. Your kids will be Amereekans, but you will never.
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I'm an American, just as american as anyone born here. Sorry to bust your bubble but you really have no clue about how this nation and this beutiful society we have created really works...
You cant insult me or take anything away with that bud, not even close...
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Alright, GRUN.
I say as Manuel in Fawlty Towers "I know nothing".
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL! It's typicaly that a xenophobic racist western european could never imagine that a nation would welcome immigrants and take them in as full and natural citizens...
Beyond that, it's funny as hell that 90% of the Ameribashers are not from the US, but then their attack on you is "what do you care"?
Funny, I was thinking the same about them.
Grun is as American as I am.
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Originally posted by patrone
Its not about being a citizen, GRUN.
You always be a Yugoslavian Serb. Your kids will be Amereekans, but you will never.
Grun is 100% American.
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Sure boys, whatever :D
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Originally posted by patrone
Sure boys, whatever :D
you do not understand America. We consider anyone who bothers to come here legally and becomes a citizen as one of us, an American.
That it why we are a great nation.....people like Grun coming over and making America their own.
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Originally posted by patrone
Its not about being a citizen, GRUN.
You always be a Yugoslavian Serb. Your kids will be Amereekans, but you will never.
Grunherz is just as American as anyone born here. Thats how it works in America when you get your citizenship status.
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That it why we are a great nation.....people like Grun coming over and making America their own.
Someone hit the nail on the head! Give that man a cookie!! :D
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Originally posted by Elfie
Grunherz is just as American as anyone born here. Thats how it works in America when you get your citizenship status.
I hate using smilies.
But Elfie gets a :aok
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this is true.
we are a nation of immigrants.
we will all defend it when it comes down to it.
doesnt let em off the hook though.
:cool:
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Punt for reading later.
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Perhaps a nazi american.. or even a nazi wannabe... but certainly not a born citizen...
Sorry genozaur and 88. These horders on this board will not think past what they have been programmed to believe.. Its just a fact. No amount of compelling evidence will ever make them even raise a brow to ponder 'what if'...
Now they'll be along to tell what a nut I am and 'my' conspiracies.. lol
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm an American, just as american as anyone born here. Sorry to bust your bubble but you really have no clue about how this nation and this beutiful society we have created really works...
You cant insult me or take anything away with that bud, not even close...
... very well assimilated...
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Originally posted by NUKE
you do not understand America. We consider anyone who bothers to come here legally and becomes a citizen as one of us, an American.
That it why we are a great nation.....people like Grun coming over and making America their own.
just a quick note.
Do you know somebody else who consider his nation to be a great nation ?
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Originally posted by genozaur
Did everybody miss this news about the shooting down of the 9-11 plane in Pennsylvania ?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42112
My AA intuition decided long ago (shortly after the 9-11) that that doomed plane was eliminated by the USAF.
Can it be that Rumsfeld's survival in the new administration was the result of his knowledge of the darkest secrets of the 1st W's presidency?
Is "Rum" actually threatening W with the possible exposure of this big secret?9
Let me guess: you're part of Art Bell's listening audience, right?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL! It's typicaly that a xenophobic racist western european could never imagine that a nation would welcome immigrants and take them in as full and natural citizens...
Sure because europe is full of many diferent things, cultures, on relatively small piece of earth... You can drive 500 km and you will find people with diferent history who speak diferent language after next 1500 km you will find something absolutly diferent.
From the history of europe, its quite clear that integration is not something, what can be done in 4 years. But integration is happening and it goes well.
And now you could tell us how is US opening, what has been achived with your neigbours/allies and how does people benefit from that ?
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Originally posted by lada
Sure because europe is full of many diferent things, cultures, on relatively small piece of earth... You can drive 500 km and you will find people with diferent history who speak diferent language after next 1500 km you will find something absolutly diferent.
I have to drive 5 miles to do that. Hell, when I'm at work, Less than a 20 step walk will reveal at least 10 different nationalities.
You go ahead and claim it's better where you're at. Go ahead and make fun of bigotted rednecks while your at it. I would enjoy the irony.
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If the plane didn't hit the pentagon, where DID it go? :eek:
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a bunch of arrogant, ignorant, biggoted euro trash telling us about how we should act..... laughable.
I met grun... he is 100% American. We are proud to have him.
lazs
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Originally posted by Mini D
I have to drive 5 miles to do that. Hell, when I'm at work, Less than a 20 step walk will reveal at least 10 different nationalities.
You go ahead and claim it's better where you're at. Go ahead and make fun of bigotted rednecks while your at it. I would enjoy the irony.
well ... many people from many countries are working at our office... ... ummm ... but all of us are in the land of other official language.
I were not talking abou tmeeting foreigners i were speaking about travelling to diferent countries, whee people speak diferent languages, have diferent history, diferent habbits and diferent vallues.....
but im sure, that quick ride around some small china town is probably same in your opinion.
he ?
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Originally posted by Monk
and Jimmy Hoffa is buried at Giants stadium.
No, he's buried in Syria with Mig 25's and WMD (sorry, on a roll from another thread...my bad)
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(http://www.geocities.com/lip_gloss_gals/troll13.gif)
Please do not feed the Genozaur !
:rofl
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It's a first....I agree with Pongo:)
Crazy thread....still, the most interesting part of all of it to me is that the goofy folks that post here never put their country of origin in the wherefrom space....why is that?
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and you're from where RUDE..........?
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lada
Sure because europe is full of many diferent things, cultures, on relatively small piece of earth... You can drive 500 km and you will find people with diferent history who speak diferent language after next 1500 km you will find something absolutly diferent.
From the history of europe, its quite clear that integration is not something, what can be done in 4 years. But integration is happening and it goes well...
...and how many times in just the last 100 years or so have one the these "cultures" tried to completely exterminate some of the other "cultures"?
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Originally posted by AWMac
and you're from where RUDE..........?
:rolleyes:
First, I don't post crazy threads on this or any other board as I referred to...secondly, if you had read any of the many posts which I have made, you would know I'm from Kansas City....thirdly, I lived in Oklahoma myself for 13 years....you're from where in Oklahoma?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Now they'll be along to tell what a nut I am and 'my' conspiracies.. lol
Exactly. You have yet to prove any of your bizzare beliefs.
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Originally posted by Rude
First, I don't post crazy threads on this or any other board as I referred to...secondly, if you had read any of the many posts which I have made, you would know I'm from Kansas City....thirdly, I lived in Oklahoma myself for 13 years....you're from where in Oklahoma?
<---- raised in nebraska, went to college in kansas city. great place. miss it. though i suspect its just a bit chilly right now.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Perhaps a nazi american.. or even a nazi wannabe... but certainly not a born citizen...
Sorry genozaur and 88. These horders on this board will not think past what they have been programmed to believe.. Its just a fact. No amount of compelling evidence will ever make them even raise a brow to ponder 'what if'...
Now they'll be along to tell what a nut I am and 'my' conspiracies.. lol
There has been no compelling evidence presented in this thread, only speculations.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Exactly. You have yet to prove any of your bizzare beliefs.
another one of my contentions against the
right wing spin machines. often they will say that you have yet to "prove" something without giving so much as a modicum of creedence to the fact that had they "proved" thier own version of the facts, there would be little room for any other stories. that said, i remain pretty certain that my extinquished colluege has actually read any of the articles that i posted which clearly show that there are certain irregularities which are glaringly obvious and subject to question.
it seems that it is easier to label someone who does not share your views as a wackjob and be done with it.
a very good stance i am sure if you never want to actually have a debate, exchange ideas or just wish to breed a little old fashioned contempt among the ranks of the intelligent.
i find it to be childish playground politics.
i would like to see more of these people actually putting up "proof" of thier arguements rather than namecalling.
i know that i certanly dont give it any credibility.
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Originally posted by Elfie
There has been no compelling evidence presented in this thread, only speculations.
evidence definition – something that tends to establish or disprove a fact. Evidence can include documents, testimony, and other objects.
Definition:
1. [n] continuous and profound contemplation or musing on a subject or series of subjects of a deep or abstruse nature; "the habit of meditation is the basis for all real knowledge"
2. [n] a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence); "speculations about the outcome of the election"; "he dismissed it as mere conjecture"
3. [n] a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence
4. [n] an investment that is very risky but could yield great profits; "he knew the stock was a speculation when he bought it"
i would say that it is a little of both.
evidence, leading to speculation.
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Originally posted by JB88
another one of my contentions against the
right wing spin machines. often they will say that you have yet to "prove" something without giving so much as a modicum of creedence to the fact that had they "proved" thier own version of the facts, there would be little room for any other stories. that said, i remain pretty certain that my extinquished colluege has actually read any of the articles that i posted which clearly show that there are certain irregularities which are glaringly obvious and subject to question.
it seems that it is easier to label someone who does not share your views as a wackjob and be done with it.
a very good stance i am sure if you never want to actually have a debate, exchange ideas or just wish to breed a little old fashioned contempt among the ranks of the intelligent.
i find it to be childish playground politics.
i would like to see more of these people actually putting up "proof" of thier arguements rather than namecalling.
i know that i certanly dont give it any credibility.
Thats an awful big straw man argument there. Labeling the facts of 911 as presented by the bipartisan 911 commision in their report as unsubstaniated products of "right wing spin machines" must be very convenient for lending respectabiulity your fantastic beliefs gleaned from shady websites but its inherintly dishonest and obviusly ludicrous to any objective person.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/
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oh yes. i am certain that my government never lies to me.
oh...and who was it again that fought the creation of that commission?
hmmmm....i forget.
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Originally posted by JB88
oh yes. i am certain that my government never lies to me.
oh...and who was it again that fought the creation of that commission?
hmmmm....i forget.
So because Bush fought AGAINST the creation of the commision it means that its illegitimate.
Plese, please keep your emotions and hatreds from muddying up your logic...
And again, you are so sceptical of this bipartisan commision yet yopu so eagerly belive any trash written up on some extesmist unsubstantiated websites...
Many of those sites argue that the Pentagon was hit by a missle and not by flight 77?
Many argue that the WTC towers were secretly rigged with implosion demolition explosives which were then set off afterthe plane strikes.
Others argue that the WTC planes were in fact remote contol CIA drones?
Do you belive any of those? Heck prolly no, you will say, but will likely then state how "intersting" these ideas are and ask us to disprove them...
You are just being silly, and for your sake I hope that you are just killing time, having abit of fun and trolling...
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no. i genuinely believe that flight 93 was shot down.
irregardless. it is a sad event.
to repeat myself.
i think it was the best thing to do.
and i think the pentagon kept a lid on it.
just that.
the other stuff is interesting reading, but i wouldnt lend to much credibility to it.
like i said, it was a gut instinct.
there have been many many many cases of government cover ups that have been proven and later admitted to.
its just not that unusual.
what i fail to appreciate is your use of the words "hate" and "wacko" when refuting any hypothesis.
i find that it takes away any credibility that your intelligent, albiet dangerously black and white logic that you may have.
dont hate bro. not even you.
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My concern is that you are letting your dislike of the Bush admin drive you seek out the most extreme views on certain topics.
Lets look at flight 93, one of the articles you posted mentined several witneses seeing some strange unknown type and unmarked white militarly plane hovering around the crash site after supposedly shotting down flight 93.
Now considering it was common knowledge that a kill order was given on 911 and thatmany regular NG fighters were scrambled to intercept these flights doesnt it strike you as odd that the flight 93 "fighter" is some bizzare secret type with no markings. ZDoesent it strike you as something very sterotypical of a a bizzare nutty conspircy theory, ie the secret weapon.
That just doesnt make sense...
And lets look at the supposed witness statements, didnt theydescribe a twin engine plane, white or light in color, with a triple tail, flying near the crash site, apparently very low. Well I think I know of one plane that pretty well fits all those descriptions and was in the area of flight 93 crash just before the crash in fact, and it likely was flying eraticaly and quite possible in an unsusal attitude... Yep, you guessed it., most people are not experts on planes, heck most dont know crap about them and most eyewqitnesses (in all cases in act) are historically very poor and unreliable evidence.
Finally why would anyone hide a shootdown when the order was clearly given to shoot down planes. Maybe a shooitdown might have been controversial before the wtc towers and pentyagon were hit, but after that all bets were off and it was a whole new game. So the very idea of a coverup given the circumstances is rater questinable.
So I really dont think there is any credibility to thse conspracy sites, any of them.
As for my view of you personally, I'm not sure why you have this nazi obession - maybe you find the grun name an easy target. As to our political differences, well some of my best friends are very liberal and we discuss politics in a heated ways even at times but we are still goodcfriends. I must call you on this idea of my arguments being called black/white simplistic. I see a gear deal of nunance where appropriate, like in the mid east pece proicess, Iran, north korea, the US relkationship with the eu and chine etc etc. Its an often overused ploy of some on the left to describe oponents views as black/white just as the reverse is true of liberal handwriner labels.
Finally wrt to these conspracy theories I really do worry that you go too far and that, of course depending on your attitude and manners of communication aboyt them, I can easily imagine a real conversation between us where I would simply nod at anything you say just so I can leave and end the talk - not because you present uncomfortable info but because you might come across as a paranoid type thats generally no fun to be around.
So in conclusion I ceratinly dont hate you because you are liberal, or hate u at all. Heck some of the best ppl I met at the ah mini con are the most liberal ppl that I had the biggest arguments with, but I do genuinely worry as to why you have a need to belive in these seemingly bizzare and unsubstantiated conspracies.
Now I'm just being honest and I hope u are not hurt or offended, but I really see nothing substantial in those theories.
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yep. there it is.
wtg.
:aok
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One more thing. I'm pretty sensitive about Flight 93 since I have a mutual friend with the family of Todd Beamer, the man famous for the "Let's Roll" remark that started the passenger uprising. This was not a random saying, it was an old family remark often used by his father.
Little deatils like this make me extremely skeptical of any bizzare theory, as I have even read some that say all the phone calls were faked which would imply that somobody had toresearch these people and spy on them to find out their speech patterns before the flight - which is extreemely bizzare and unlikely..
So I honestly hope that one day you just let gof these thories.
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when it rains, it pours.
:)
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Originally posted by Elfie
There has been no compelling evidence presented in this thread, only speculations.
wtf have you been in this thread? Eyewitness testimony from 6 different independent people is what?? Wtf does that mean to you? Six independent people lie for what reason? Oh oh oh.. I get it.. They all got together before 911 and agreed they'd try to rebuke the government's very next statment.. No matter what it was..
You dont believe the government lies to the population? Well, if possible for such feeble minds to comprehend, I suggest abit of reading about the 9months of governmental propaganda placed forward to the American population prior 1968s Tet offensive.. Its all about control and public perception.. Cause everyone knows, perception is reality..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
wtf have you been in this thread? Eyewitness testimony from 6 different independent people is what?? Wtf does that mean to you? Six independent people lie for what reason? Oh oh oh.. I get it.. They all got together before 911 and agreed they'd try to rebuke the government's very next statment.. No matter what it was..
You ever watch late night TV?
Ever see those taped testimonials for the weight loss miracle products? Or the quit smoking in one day herbal pills? Thats pretty much the level of credibility the conspiracy theorists operate on, really where is the proof that any of those people are telling the truth, can any of it be backed up or fact checked - prolly not... Also would you belive these thories if you put them to same level of criticizm you seem to put towards the 911 commisions report? Prolly not. Both the theorists and late nite TV ads operate on the premise of telling the gullible and naive something they want and need to belive in. Thats the real issue here, you need to belive.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You ever watch late night TV?
Ever see those taped testimonials for the weight loss miracle products? Or the quit smoking in one day herbal pills? Thats pretty much the level of credibility the conspiracy theorists operate on... And both operate on the premise of telling the gullible something they want and need to belive in.
This is why I dont answer you Grun.. This is just rediculus.. Those people are paid! I just thought I would 'attempt' at helping you understand how the world operates.. I now remember that an impossibility.. Back to my regular scheduled ignoring of Grun..
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No kappa, those people are mewrely induced to lie because it meets thir motives - in this cade financial motives.
The conspiracy theory writers are just doing the same. For example you say there are "6 eyewitneses" well what evidence do you have that those are actually 6 real people and not some characters made up by the author of the theory? Just like the characters created by the producers of the TV commericials? In fact if you think about it if anything its much simpler to make up fake characters on a written website pitch than to actually arrange real live people to fake testimonials on camera...
The problem with those theories is that pretty much anyone can write up a website that gives out their tale without challenge and find gullible people to buy it.
People like you. Its really no different or more credible than the late nite miracle stop smoking commericials.
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An F15 or F16 could easily have made it to PA to shoot down the plane in the time alloted. Not even a remote question.
Did it? I don't think it even matters. Personally, I think the government should be forthcoming on all matters. I hate being treated like we can't handle the truth. We can.
I'd hate to be the pilot who had to do the shooting, if in fact it had to be done. God bless him. I am not sure I could live with it, even though I believe it would have been the right thing.
The good of the many outweigh the good of the few, or the one. Sad, but reality.
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wow.. perhaps there was no flight 93.. I mean.. I didnt see it..
I mean if its easy to make up stuff on one side.. And obviously easy to see how easy it is.. lol That must hold true on both sides.. Or wait.. No no.. the govenment NEVER makes up things.. for any reason..
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dude... I am reading a very good book called "A better War" that talks about the three tet offensives extensively...
I would be interested in what you are talking about so far as the government lies is all about.
and dude... the governmernt lies to us all the time but in this case (93) there seems to be no reason nor any compelling evidence to make a case that they are.
"eyewitnesses" seen shooters on the grassy knoll and aliens in their backyard and any number of things... they may all be right but they have little or no other evidence nor..
dare I say it? does it matter to me one way or the other.
Say that there was some super secret shooting down of 93 for one reason or another... How does that affect me and world events in general? If we all know that governments lie then....
Are you saying that this is a case for.... less government? I would have to agree at that point or... are you saying that it is only a case for less conservative government since adminestrations like the klintons were never dishonest?
never have figured you liberals out.... you want less government when the conservatives are in but are willing to have a allmost martial law when the lefties are in.
lazs
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dude... I am reading a very good book called "A better War" that talks about the three tet offensives extensively...
Lazs,
Im reading a book by Daniel Ellsberg called 'The Pentagon Papers'. A very well documented analyas between 1946 and 1974? of America's involvment in the Vietnam war. He smuggled some 7000 pages of studies done during the Johnnson/Nixon administrations and lies continued by each and their staffs. He worked for the CIA, Rand corp, directly for the secretary of defence as well as directly for the POTUS. He also was in country during the vietnam war with well documented accounts. A very good read for what the government will do and is capable of doing in a case leading to war.
The lies I was referring to in my post were the lies given the American people by their government of the actual situation of Vietnam all up until the Tet offensive. How the war is winable and almost won.. All lies.. According to Ellsberg, most in the know at the time knew the war unwinnable for various reasons. Yet the LBJ/Nixon administrations continued with plans of escalation in the shadow of telling the public they were attempting withdrawal. Even an attempt at withdrawal with 'honor'.. None knew exactly what with 'honor' meant to Nixon, yet had circumstances not happened how they did, the war could have advanced even through Nixon's second term..
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Are you saying that this is a case for.... less government? I would have to agree at that point or... are you saying that it is only a case for less conservative government since adminestrations like the klintons were never dishonest?
No, I am saying this is a case of needed accountability and disclosure to the American public.. We can handle the truth..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
We can handle the truth..
Except you...
Flight 93 was brouht down by its passengers.
The Pentagon was hit by flight 77.
The WTC compley was brought down by other two flights.
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dude.. I do not believe that the war was winnable in vietnam if it were fought the way that westmoreland and the politicos wanted it fought.. Abrams changed everyrthing....
It was not only possible to win but we were absolutely winning it. Abrams told everyone on his staffs that he wanted no false info of any kind... So far as I know, He never allowed any false military info out after he took over. Most books focus on everything up to tet and westmoreland... westmoreland did not nor never could understand the war he was running..
Abrams had it down. He was winning the war but the momentum of the anti war movement created by westmorelands blunders defeated him before he could win it.
The north was on it's knees but the anti war activists snatched defeat from the very jaws of victory... they can't be blamed tho... The early inept handiing of the war is to blame.
as for all the tet offensives... we were clueless on the first one because westmoreland was clueless.... he was not fighting the right kind of war. We were very much prepared for the next 2 weaker tets and they were even worse failures for he north than the first one was.... plus... Abrams told everyone exactly what and when to expect the last two.
too much to go into here but suffice it to say that Abrams had a winning plan that was working but that he ran out of time before it could be sucessful.
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Lazs.. I will read a book you offer for my education if you will read this book.. agreed? Just name it my friend 8)
This book has opened my eyes to the buracracy (even if I could spell it) more than anything in my short existance. Even Johnson's justification for going to war was false and for 2.5 years we fought and bombed vietnam under these reasons. We produced the first attacks on our destroyers in the Leyte gulf and the second attacks can not be proven 'fact' in their existance.. Daniel Ellsburg gives a shocking account of the time.. He was a supporter of the war.
edit: you can even listen to him on CD.. haha
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Originally posted by Monk
and Jimmy Hoffa is buried at Giants stadium.
That's one possible location. Do you know where he is?
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Originally posted by genozaur
quote:And also I still can't believe that the USAF interceptor planes are piloted exclusively by the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen.
Firstly, for some unexplainable reason I don't trust the flight qualifications of "the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen" whoever those poor chaps can be.
And secondly, just take an inch closer look at the whole USAF "interception of Flight 93 operation" as it was presented by the media.
I can still vividly remember how much perplexed I was with all those newscasts about THE TOTAL INABILITY OF THE USAF INTERCEPTORS TOGETHER WITH THE NORAD TO EVEN FIND THE LOST \HIJACKED FLIGHT 93. Then, after they had finally located it, NOBODY SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO SHOOT IT DOWN THOUGH IT PRESENTED BY ITSELF A HUGE AIRBORNE TARGET MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF DENSELY POPULATED AREAS AND, POSSIBLY, TOWARDS A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT. AND IT WAS ALREADY KNOWN THAT THE FLIGHT 93 HAD BEEN HIJACKED TO CARRY OUT THE NEXT SUICIDE ATTACK.
I still can't believe these media reports. Sorry for that. Maybe my 2-year experience with the Soviet AA regiment gives me the wrong angle of view on this whole fable of UNDETECTABLE AND UNDESTRUCTIBLE FLIGHT 93.
Proof that a little knowlege is a dangerous thing.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You ever watch late night TV?
Ever see those taped testimonials for the weight loss miracle products? Or the quit smoking in one day herbal pills? Thats pretty much the level of credibility the conspiracy theorists operate on, really where is the proof that any of those people are telling the truth, can any of it be backed up or fact checked - prolly not... Also would you belive these thories if you put them to same level of criticizm you seem to put towards the 911 commisions report? Prolly not. Both the theorists and late nite TV ads operate on the premise of telling the gullible and naive something they want and need to belive in. Thats the real issue here, you need to belive.
much like the "theory:" about WMD"s grun?
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Well every major intelligence service in the word belived that and had evidence of it.
I think its silly to even compare these conspiracy theory websites even to the failiures of the worlds intelligence services.
So no.
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Well lets look at what has been reported to us by the reputable media.
1 Controllers reported the plane on a course to DC.
2 Fighter jets were scrambled, and were shadowing the airliner, however did not fire on the plane, but state that they would have had it become necesary.
3 The conversation between the "lets roll" passenger and the controller.
This was widely reported in sept. 01.
Now if it's reported from a reputable source that the cockpit was not breached by the passangers. Then I don't think that it's unreasonable to suppose that those fighter jet pilots did turn their guns on and bring the plane down over rural Pennsylvania.
Why fighters were not able to intercept the plane that hit the pentagon, who knows.
The theory about the AA and Rumsfeld is ignorant.
If the plane really was brought down by the fighter pilots that were on course to intercept, then that award ceremony was for them.
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Originally posted by JB88
"There's no way I imagined this plane - it was so low it was virtually on top of me. It was white with no markings but it was definitely military, it just had that look.
"It had two rear engines, a big fin on the back like a spoiler on the back of a car and with two upright fins at the side. I haven't found one like it on the internet. It definitely wasn't one of those executive jets.
THE F-16s
UA93 was identified as a hijack at 9.16am. At 9.35am three F-16s were ordered to "protect the White House at all costs" when it turned towards the capital. At 10.06am it crashed at Shanksville, less than 10mins flying time from Washington
A twin-engine F-16 with a radical new tail design. Neat. No wonder the person couldn't find any pictures of them, I couldn't find one on the internet either. For that matter, I can't really think of any combat aircraft in our inventory that match the eyewitness description. So, in an emergency, someone scrambled an all-white, top secret, unmarked military jet armed with sidewinders, from a hidden base in Pennsylvania, to shoot down a civilian passenger jet. Wow. Oh wait, it was the single-engine F-16s that shot it down, because they were in hot pursuit (so claimed by "anonymous" the ACT), even though they weren't seen in the area by the eyewitnesses.
I don't claim to know what happened, but wow, here's a toast to you JB88. May your underwear have far less holes in it than your theories.
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Originally posted by Rude
First, I don't post crazy threads on this or any other board as I referred to...secondly, if you had read any of the many posts which I have made, you would know I'm from Kansas City....thirdly, I lived in Oklahoma myself for 13 years....you're from where in Oklahoma?
North of Tulsa Rude... lil town called Owasso.
I have a friend in Newton Kansas... we watched his dog run away from home......for two weeks.
RUDE I was just remarking to your post about people no adding location to their info under avartar. Not an attack on you by no means.
Mac
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Originally posted by JB88
<---- raised in nebraska, went to college in kansas city. great place. miss it. though i suspect its just a bit chilly right now.
Cold is the word today...cept our Canadian buds would think 3 degree's is t-shirt weather:)
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Originally posted by AWMac
North of Tulsa Rude... lil town called Owasso.
I have a friend in Newton Kansas... we watched his dog run away from home......for two weeks.
RUDE I was just remarking to your post about people no adding location to their info under avartar. Not an attack on you by no means.
Mac
I have a good friend who lives in Owasso...Dave Cole....I used to go to church there as well at Friendship Baptist.
Lot of growth in Owasso over the past ten years....always liked the country up there:)
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Ok dude.... ya got a deal... I can read anything allmost.... I was around back then and I sure as hell don't recall ellsburg being all for the war but maybe my recolection is blurred by his later stance.
I think you will enjoy the book "A better War" it is not political at all I don't believe... The political stuff is background. Mostly it is a study of two types of commanders... Westy and Abrams..
Abrams comes out like one very sharp cookie and a saint to boot while westmoreland comes out like and evil bumbling fool. The tactics and overall plan for the war is discussed in a way that I have never heard before.
If Abrams would have been given command in the beggining I have no doubt that Sout Vietnam would be free today. If Abrams would have been running things then I might have signed up myself.
lazs
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Originally posted by patrone
Dont know why GRUN always gets so upset, USA is´nt even your country, what would you care?
Last I knew, he was an American citizen. That makes America his country. What's wrong with caring?
I'll use Grunherz and Storch as examples as those two (I know at the top of my head) are Americans born elsewhere.
I may not agree with them politically 100% but I sure respect their passion for our country. I wish more Americans shared this passion for we'd be even that much better.
Too many Americans born here take it for granted, IMHO.
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Originally posted by NUKE
you do not understand America. We consider anyone who bothers to come here legally and becomes a citizen as one of us, an American.
That it why we are a great nation.....people like Grun coming over and making America their own.
Exactly! Well said Nuke.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
wtf have you been in this thread? Eyewitness testimony from 6 different independent people is what?? Wtf does that mean to you? Six independent people lie for what reason? Oh oh oh.. I get it.. They all got together before 911 and agreed they'd try to rebuke the government's very next statment.. No matter what it was..
You dont believe the government lies to the population? Well, if possible for such feeble minds to comprehend, I suggest abit of reading about the 9months of governmental propaganda placed forward to the American population prior 1968s Tet offensive.. Its all about control and public perception.. Cause everyone knows, perception is reality..
How many *eyewitness* accounts of the JFK assasination have been ignored or discredited? Six people who cant identify what they saw, nor can anyone positively identify a fighter aircraft, or a missile trail, or an explosion in the sky (from a missile impact).
There has been no hard evidence presented in this thread that positively supports flight 93 being shot down.
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All the witnesses said the mystery plane was white, no other color mentioned. Having grown up on air force bases all over the country(military brat) I can only recall one airplane that is painted white that you can hang an air to air missle on....the F16's the thunderbirds perform with. Living just north of Pittsburgh pa on 9 11 I can say truthfully that the thunderbirds were no where near that day. BUT that being said my father was never stationed at Area 51 so that must be where this mystery plane jetted from to shot down flight 93 with its new and improved invisible 4 tailed ramjetted AMRAM
As an architect , if you like I can explain to you the dynamics of how GRAVITY (another area 51 invention no doubt) pulled these towers down after the light weight floor joist were weakened by the jet fuel burning (yes,jet fuel will ignite). These towers were designed to survive inpact of smaller airliners when designed , not the larger ones flying now.
Really Guys if you just reasearch a little bit most of these dubious accusations just dont stand up.
That said, I do believe there was a shooter on the grassy knoll
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Originally posted by rshubert
That's one possible location. Do you know where he is?
He got raosted in a junkyard smeltere. Hes dead.
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Originally posted by P0G0
All the witnesses said the mystery plane was white, no other color mentioned. Having grown up on air force bases all over the country(military brat) I can only recall one airplane that is painted white that you can hang an air to air missle on....the F16's the thunderbirds perform with. Living just north of Pittsburgh pa on 9 11 I can say truthfully that the thunderbirds were no where near that day. BUT that being said my father was never stationed at Area 51 so that must be where this mystery plane jetted from to shot down flight 93 with its new and improved invisible 4 tailed ramjetted AMRAM
As an architect , if you like I can explain to you the dynamics of how GRAVITY (another area 51 invention no doubt) pulled these towers down after the light weight floor joist were weakened by the jet fuel burning (yes,jet fuel will ignite). These towers were designed to survive inpact of smaller airliners when designed , not the larger ones flying now.
Really Guys if you just reasearch a little bit most of these dubious accusations just dont stand up.
That said, I do believe there was a shooter on the grassy knoll
Good thinking there POGO. Now explain how building 7 collapsaed.
No jet fuel please.
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how did building 7 collapse? never heard much about that.
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Originally posted by Elfie
how did building 7 collapse? never heard much about that.
Well, thats a good point. According to the official story, it caught on fire, the support structure was weakened, and it collapsed, just as the WTC did. Now you know how conspiracy kooks get full ammo for their guns.
the officials go into very elaborate details, when questioned about how the towers collapsed. After all, the WTC towers were designed to withstand an impact from a smaller jet, (specifically a 707 sized passenger jet) but todays larger jets were just too much for the towers to withstand, all that fuel and what not. It was the fuel that burned so intensely hot as to melt the support beams, each floor collapsing on itself, the next floor unable to withstand the added wieght, thus the towers fell perfectly vertically, just as they were designed to.
'Umm, question Mr propaganda man, What happend to building 7?' there was no jet fuel in there?!?!'
'OK, well, uhhhh. Obviously there was alot going on and the building caught on fire and collapsed also.'
'You mean, kind sir, that for the first time in history, a modern skcyscraper failed from fire?'
'And for the scond time? and the third time from a WASTE BASKET fire?!! All in the same day?!!!!! And they all fell perfectly vertically as they were designed to???!?!? Hmmm, how does the building know when to collapse? All of the supports have to give way at exactly the same time or the buildong would twist and curl and eventually come down horizontally causing massive damage?!?!' Wow, what tremendous luck. This dude Bin laden is good, real fricken good.!! He could make a billion doing controled demolition.! How come alll of the other buildings in the whole world have to be rigged with explosives and timed perfectly in order to come down like that? How come...'
'OK' says the PR man 'somebody get that squeak outta here, shes one of those conspiracy kooks! Conspiracy kooks are not to be tolerated!'
'But my son was killed in tower #2, I wanna know what happened!'
'Read the official story! By the way, you got any more sons? We gonna go get some oil! Muhahahahah'.
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Building 7 collapsed because the builsing owner rushed a demolotions team to the site on September 11 to implode the buliding after the other towers fell. This was the most amazing implosion demollition in the history of ths industry fort several reasons:
1) All the work was contracted, planned and done in a matter of a few hours - in a major catostrophy zone - with no knowledge of thsi by anyone - in tyhe middle of new york with all teh worlds media watching. All at a time when phone and nternet systems were sevely damaged and over capacity in the wole USA and espoecally new york. Not to mention that all travel flights were grounded.
2) Nobody seess to know whuich of the handful of demolotion firms qualified of doing this level of work was contacted to do it.
3) Nobody saw the demollition team of several hundred people enter the ground zero area that day and rig the buiolding with miles of detcord and sahped charges.
4) Nobody seems to know how of the explovies and other related equipment were transported to the site on 911 considering the huge travel restrictions into the city caused by the disaster.
5) Nobody saw anyone of the demolotion company set up a cordon around WTC7 and evacuate everyone o make sure taht it was safe before dropping teh plunger on teh explosives.
This really was the most amazing demolition in the history of the imlosion demoloition industry. It was simply amazing how any member of the demolotion industry was able to plan and execute this job on barely 3 hours notice in the middle of ground zero on 911 with basically nobody knowing.
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i personally find those stories to be bunk.
though, i find the idea of people in the pentagon setting up schemes to do futures trading on terrorism to be pretty freeking wrong.
and this did happen.
it should be noted that a missle can be lauched from far enough out that noone would have even seen it.
all that it requires is a little guidence.
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Originally posted by JB88
i
though, i find the idea of people in the pentagon setting up schemes to do futures trading on terrorism to be pretty freeking wrong.
and this did happen.
Sure did.
It was one of the most brilliant and innovative new ideas into intelligence gathering they came up with and it got canned because the plan looked bad on TV. So much for intelligence reform...
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it looks bad any way you slice it.
not to mention stupid. albeit brilliantly so.
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Originally posted by JB88
it looks bad any way you slice it.
not to mention stupid. albeit brilliantly so.
But futures markets have shwn an amazing ability to predict future events. For example an election futures market has correctly predicted the outcom4 of of the US presidential election correctly every time for the past several decades...
And the point in this other market case was to anticipate new terror asttacks was it not?
I'm not "invested' in the idea but I do think its rejection casts a doubt on the willingness of congress and the traditinal people to realy try new ideas.
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it presents an unwillingness of people to bet upon the tradgedy of others.
and thats all that it is really.
betting and odds.
its a sh*tty stupid idea and the though of the government even considers it make my skin crawl.
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Originally posted by JB88
it presents an unwillingness of people to bet upon the tradgedy of others.
and thats all that it is really.
betting and odds.
its a sh*tty stupid idea and the though of the government even considers it make my skin crawl.
Thats a nice emotional way to look at it, yet you conveniently ignore that the whole point of it is to anticipate and thus help prevent such attacks - such tragedies.
Its not a get rich scheme which is what you are trying to paint it as..
But as for money, how is this any different than paying an informant ohh lets say 25 million to turn in Bin Laden or Zarquawi in the hope of preventing an attack.. Or evenm just paying informants for any sort of intel...
It's all the same..
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um ya. youre right grun.
whatever.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Building 7 collapsed because the builsing owner rushed a demolotions team to the site on September 11 to implode the buliding after the other towers fell. This was the most amazing implosion demollition in the history of ths industry fort several reasons:
1) All the work was contracted, planned and done in a matter of a few hours - in a major catostrophy zone - with no knowledge of thsi by anyone - in tyhe middle of new york with all teh worlds media watching. All at a time when phone and nternet systems were sevely damaged and over capacity in the wole USA and espoecally new york.
2) Nobody seess to know whuich of the handful of demolotion firms qualified of doing this level of work was contacted to do it.
3) Nobody saw the demollition team of several hundred people enter the ground zero area that day and rig the buiolding with miles of detcord and sahped charges.
4) Nobody seems to know how of the explovies and other related equipment were transported to the site on 911 considering the huge travel restrictions into the city caused by the disaster.
5) Nobody saw anyone of the demolotion company set up a cordon around WTC7 and evacuate everyone o make sure taht it was safe before dropping teh plunger on teh explosives.
This really was the most amazing demolition in the history of the imlosion demoloition industry. It was simply amazing how any member of the demolotion industry was able to plan and execute this job on barely 3 hours notice in the middle of ground zero on 911 with basically nobody knowing.
So true Grun. Even if they were to be done over the course of several years, little by little before 911, it is nearly impossible.
But, seeing that some of the kooks are assuming that this was a planned event by insiders, and it would have probably been planned even before bush took office, the explosives would have been planted before 911 took place. The world trade center towers have been shut down and closed to everybody for maintenance a number of times prior to 911.
the story of the conspiracy kook is nearly as unbelieveable as the official version.
But, the fact is. Even if there were a possible way that the 2 towers collapsed as perfectly as they possibly could with as little collateral damage as POSSIBLE, there is no way that building 7 caught fire and collapsed as perfectly as possible from fire fueled by combustibles within the buidling. And remember. All of the WTC buildings were slated for massively expensive asbestos removal procedures that would have closed them for months, so we know they didnt neglect planning for fire.
I truly wish the officials would have come up with something more believeable like, 'After the 93 bombings a secret program to rig the towers with explosives was deemed necessary. If any terror plot were to successfully seriously threaten the structural integrity of the towers, the towers would have to be demolished by controlled methods to prevent massive civilian and property damage to the surrounding area. Every effort was made to evacuate the buildings and the surrounding area prior to the domlition. This program saved thousands maybe 10's of thousands of lives and billions of dollars of property.'
But, alas, we the people are expected to buy thier bulls hit or accept their astronomically impossible story without question.
We are not supposed to look at the pictures that show no passenger jet at the pentagon, funny pods on the bottom of hijacked planes, and massive explosions prior to any collapse of any building at the WTC. We are not supposed to notice the news casters ducking for cover as huge explosions echo through the streets of ground zero, prior to the collapsing of any buildings or the fireman on sight (those that survived) swearing the buildings were being blown by explosives, or the witnesses who swore they smelled cordite at the pentagon.
I myself refuse to believe that a huge jumbo jet crashed into the pentagon and all they have to prove it is sketchy foggy 5 frame slideshow that shows nothing. Is that the only camera the pentagon has to surviel with? Sorry, charlie. I beleive my eyes.
The stakes are too high. Who is trying to take over our military? And why?
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
So true Grun. Even if they were to be done over the course of several years, little by little before 911, it is nearly impossible.
But, seeing that some of the kooks are assuming that this was a planned event by insiders, and it would have probably been planned even before bush took office, the explosives would have been planted before 911 took place. The world trade center towers have been shut down and closed to everybody for maintenance a number of times prior to 911.
the story of the conspiracy kook is nearly as unbelieveable as the official version.
But, the fact is. Even if there were a possible way that the 2 towers collapsed as perfectly as they possibly could with as little collateral damage as POSSIBLE, there is no way that building 7 caught fire and collapsed as perfectly as possible from fire fueled by combustibles within the buidling. And remember. All of the WTC buildings were slated for massively expensive asbestos removal procedures that would have closed them for months, so we know they didnt neglect planning for fire.
I truly wish the officials would have come up with something more believeable like, 'After the 93 bombings a secret program to rig the towers with explosives was deemed necessary. If any terror plot were to successfully seriously threaten the structural integrity of the towers, the towers would have to be demolished by controlled methods to prevent massive civilian and property damage to the surrounding area. Every effort was made to evacuate the buildings and the surrounding area prior to the domlition. This program saved thousands maybe 10's of thousands of lives and billions of dollars of property.'
But, alas, we the people are expected to buy thier bulls hit or accept their astronomically impossible story without question.
We are not supposed to look at the pictures that show no passenger jet at the pentagon, funny pods on the bottom of hijacked planes, and massive explosions prior to any collapse of any building at the WTC. We are not supposed to notice the news casters ducking for cover as huge explosions echo through the streets of ground zero, prior to the collapsing of any buildings or the fireman on sight (those that survived) swearing the buildings were being blown by explosives, or the witnesses who swore they smelled cordite at the pentagon.
I myself refuse to believe that a huge jumbo jet crashed into the pentagon and all they have to prove it is sketchy foggy 5 frame slideshow that shows nothing. Is that the only camera the pentagon has to surviel with? Sorry, charlie. I beleive my eyes.
The stakes are too high. Who is trying to take over our military? And why?
Thats an amazing post.
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I think it's a conspiracy.
Not really....I think there is a conspiracy to create the conspiracy theories that abound.
I'd love to know why people THRIVE on, and have to believe, that there is a secret story behind everything. I swear, it's at the root of gossip.
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you internet conspiracy whackos sure put a lot of faith in "witnesses" who see this" or "smell that" and have names and idendities only on far left corners of the internet.
Wouldn't The CommieBroadcatingSeries and blather and friends be on their doorstep interviewing them if they could even be fleshed out?
Wouldn't michele moore be using them in his next fiction opus?
lazs
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For once, I have to agree with Laz2 and Grun. This conspiracy story is so full of BS.
The guys that are planting theese stories must be rofl their azzes off.
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well.... say they were all absolutely true...
Us "right wingers" are not your enemy.... your lefty pals like blather and moore are your enemy.... they have betrayed you... where is ted kennedy and kerrie? where are all your lefty friends? They are the ones giving you the shaft..
all we are doing is making fun of you.
lazs
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well at least youve admitted to being a right winger.
thats a start.
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I will admit to knowing some people think I am a right winger. I will admit that I am for sure more right wing than left wing lieing pansy.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I will admit to knowing some people think I am a right winger. I will admit that I am for sure more right wing than left wing lieing pansy.
lazs
good for you.
gold star.
:aok
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Conspiracy, give me a break. What world are you living in? You think someone would plant explosives in the WTC, fake the pentagon attack, and shoot down the plane in PA and no one leaked anything? lmao Not in this day and age. And I guess Bin laden is just a CIA computer hologram. Funny thing is even before 9/11 I figured Bush was gonna attack Iraq. I dont think he needed this to justify it. Hey wait he didnt use it to justify it he used the WMD, so Why is 9/11 a conspiracy? to invade afghanistan? lol
Its real, it happened, I have seen the conspiracy sites, what a crock. GO AMERICA!!!
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Originally posted by slimm50
Let me guess: you're part of Art Bell's listening audience, right?:rolleyes:
I like art, I heard about Graham Bell? But Atr Bell?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Really, Slimm, I am all into the study of ancient texts (the earliest from the times of "Turmoil" in Russiia, almost 400 years old).
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Originally posted by tce2506
If the plane didn't hit the pentagon, where DID it go? :eek:
Yesterday I was reading the book by Ian Hogg "Twentieth Century Artillery"(Barnes&Noble Books, New York, 2000) and on page 215 there was the description of "Nike Ajax" Air Defence Missile with the following opening sentence: (quote)
Nike Ajax has the distinction of being the first surface-to-air guided missile to enter regular service with a military force when it was deployed to protect Washington DC in December 1953. (end of quote)
And on the next page of the same book one can find the following lines describing "Nike Hercules" Air Defence Missile: (quote)
Nike Hercules was the second generation of Nike and it was an attempt to produce a system which was more efficient, but at the same time simpler to use. It also had to be compatible with Nike Ajax and use as much of that expensive system as possible. .... The system was deployed in the US by late 1958 and in subsequent years it was supplied to several countries in order to upgrade their earlier Nike Ajax batteries). (end of quote)
The gist of these two pages:
Expensive air defence system of Nike Ajax batteries was first deployed in December 1953 in order to protect Washington DC. Starting in late 1958 the Nike Ajax air defence missiles were replaced with the Nike Hercules system.
This is all that I know.
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So you are insinuating flight 77 was shot down too!! By a decomissioned and retired (in 1979) cold war era Nike Ajax/Hercules system supposedly still in place around DC...
"This is all that I know."
Yea, and it's painfully obvious, genozaur...
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by AWMac
(http://www.geocities.com/lip_gloss_gals/troll13.gif)
Please do not feed the Genozaur !
:rofl
I'm fed up with RAWMacs already.
:D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you are insinuating flight 77 was shot down too!! By a decomissioned and retired (in 1979) cold war era Nike Ajax/Hercules system supposedly still in place around DC...
"This is all that I know."
Yea, and it's painfully obvious, genozaur...
:rofl :aok
Grun, don't ascribe to me what I have not said.
If there was no need to defend Washington DC after 1979, it's pretty much O'key with me.
BTW, who was the president in 1979. :D
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Originally posted by Rude
It's a first....I agree with Pongo:)
Crazy thread....still, the most interesting part of all of it to me is that the goofy folks that post here never put their country of origin in the wherefrom space....why is that?
I don't want to be rude, but I consider this conspiracy theory to be totally unfounded.
I never hid my country of origin. It would be too difficult to do with that really huge Soviet Union. But look, last time I checked the globe, it wasn't there. So, I'm verry much sorry that the most interesting part of this crazy thread originated in Brooklyn, NY. :D
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Originally posted by JB88
no. i genuinely believe that flight 93 was shot down.
irregardless. it is a sad event.
to repeat myself.
i think it was the best thing to do.
and i think the pentagon kept a lid on it.
just that.
the other stuff is interesting reading, but i wouldnt lend to much credibility to it.
like i said, it was a gut instinct.
there have been many many many cases of government cover ups that have been proven and later admitted to.
its just not that unusual.
what i fail to appreciate is your use of the words "hate" and "wacko" when refuting any hypothesis.
i find that it takes away any credibility that your intelligent, albiet dangerously black and white logic that you may have.
dont hate bro. not even you.
TY JB for hijacking my shot airliner. :aok
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Originally posted by genozaur
Grun, don't ascribe to me what I have not said.
If there was no need to defend Washington DC after 1979, it's pretty much O'key with me.
BTW, who was the president in 1979. :D
Right...
You quote somebody asking where flight 77 went if it didnt hit the Pentagon then respond with a detailed cut and paste about a SAM system that you emphasze was installed around washington DC...
Now you try to deny it..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
One more thing. I'm pretty sensitive about Flight 93 since I have a mutual friend with the family of Todd Beamer, the man famous for the "Let's Roll" remark that started the passenger uprising. This was not a random saying, it was an old family remark often used by his father.
Little deatils like this make me extremely skeptical of any bizzare theory, as I have even read some that say all the phone calls were faked which would imply that somobody had toresearch these people and spy on them to find out their speech patterns before the flight - which is extreemely bizzare and unlikely..
So I honestly hope that one day you just let gof these thories.
Grun, so actually you are saying that you were not discussing the thread but were just opposing any notion of unknown to me conspiracy theory.
I never questioned the heroic actions of the passengers aboard the plane.
But I know that a lot of brave people died from the friendly fire, and no matter how sad that is,
such things happen, and they can happen again.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Right...
You quote somebody asking where flight 77 went if it didnt hit the Pentagon then respond with a detailed cut and paste about a SAM system that you emphasze was installed around washington DC...
Now you try to deny it..
Grun, after you gallantly told me that I glued into my post the internet address of some "lunatic" conspiracy site, I had to check it out (thank you for the recommendation). Several fly-by glimpses on its content left the impression that the guys were discussing "the absence of the plane" that hit Pentagon (in my AA understanding that "absence" could only mean "the absence of big parts" of the aircraft). So when such question arose in this thread, I answered quoting the question itself and informing the guy about the existence of the air defence system of Washington DC.
You furiously accused me of another conspiracy,
stating that the system was scrapped in late seventies, never answered my question about the name of the president of the year 1979 who left the federal capital defenceless. :confused:
Really, Grun, what am I trying to deny?
The person in total denial is you. :(
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Genozaur your last few bizzare posts are amazing...
I'll let them stand for themselves...
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Originally posted by lazs2
you internet conspiracy whackos sure put a lot of faith in "witnesses" who see this" or "smell that" and have names and idendities only on far left corners of the internet.
Wouldn't The CommieBroadcatingSeries and blather and friends be on their doorstep interviewing them if they could even be fleshed out?
Wouldn't michele moore be using them in his next fiction opus?
lazs
If a nasty Commie says BigMac is healthy food,
would you believe him?
:confused: :D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Genozaur your last few bizzare posts are amazing...
I'll let them stand for themselves...
What looks bizarre to you is "stiob", a tipically Russian way to still maintain a discussion when the guys like you are doggedly trying to suffocate any exchange of opinions here.
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Originally posted by genozaur
What looks bizarre to you is "stiob", a tipically Russian way to still maintain a discussion when the guys like you are doggedly trying to suffocate any exchange of opinions here.
So I take it, in english, "stiob" means resort to desperate BS when your main point about an evil washington DC missle system accounting for the missing flight 77 is blown out of the water because said system was decomssioned over 2 decades ago?
Or are we all just witness to another old russian tradition of "vodka?"
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So I take it, in english, "stiob" means resort to desperate BS when your main point about an evil washington DC missle system accounting for the missing flight 77 is blown out of the water because said system was decomssioned over 2 decades ago?
Or are we all just witness to another old russian tradition of "vodka?"
Grun, I am a well-educated (18 years of schooling, several degrees) Don Cossack who earned (two years of active service plus a year of military scooling) the rank of Sr Lt of the Soviet Army.
I drink a couple of glasses of Stolichnaya vodka on Revolutionary holidays, on the Day of Victory over Hitler, and on the Day of the Soviet Army and Navy. None of these festive occasions happens to fall on today. I guess it ruins your "vodka theory".
And the above lines are a good example of the Russian styob. Don't even try to understand it.
It's far beyond your comprehension. :D
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This stiob is basically you trying desperatly to change the subject when your pet cold war missle theory proved stupid.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
This stiob is basically you trying desperatly to change the subject when your pet cold war missle theory proved stupid.
Grun, everybody, (even the guys who support you, I guess) are sick of your language full of lunatics, crazies, stupid people.
There is Russian saying : the one who is in pains for something is the one who talks about that something.
This saying is also an example of Russian styob.
That's all for today. :D
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ok... now I get it.. genazoutr is a russian..
Those old women are the worlds biggest conspiracy junkies... especialy if it has to do with the U.S.
Makes sense now.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
ok... now I get it.. genazoutr is a russian..
Those old women are the worlds biggest conspiracy junkies... especialy if it has to do with the U.S.
Makes sense now.
lazs
Lazs, I am a Soviet of Don Cossack-Ukrainian-Celtic-Latvian-Severin-Hun descend who uses three languages including Russian.
And what about your infatuation with old women?
Sorry, I can't help you on that. :D
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Originally posted by lazs2
you internet conspiracy whackos sure put a lot of faith in "witnesses" who see this" or "smell that" and have names and idendities only on far left corners of the internet.
Wouldn't The CommieBroadcatingSeries and blather and friends be on their doorstep interviewing them if they could even be fleshed out?
Wouldn't michele moore be using them in his next fiction opus?
lazs
Sorry lazs. What witnesses do you believe? The ones who testified that someone braved the choking smoldering red hot cauldron of ground zero just hours after the attacks to pull out the only item not to be incinerated to dust. A plastic passport confirming an al queada agent was on the plane? I cant seem to come up with a possible path of that passport from the pocket of the hijacker to the CIA's desk in a timeframe of 12 hours after the attack. Can You? Dont be shy, you could convert a conspiracy kook.
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I don't know... is the passport a tangible thing? Where are these "witnesses" that you believe? Why aren't they being interviewed so that I can get a look at em? Maybe you can convert me to whatever it is you conspiracy junkies call yourselves.
I think that taking the word of some lefty nutcase corner of the internet over all the other tangible evidence seems bizzare.... I think that conspiracies are bizzare.... I can't think of any time when even three people could keep a juicy secret much less the hundreds that it would take to flesh out your nutball theory.
lazs
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
I cant seem to come up with a possible path of that passport from the pocket of the hijacker to the CIA's desk in a timeframe of 12 hours after the attack.
Seems more plausable than the CIA wiring the trade center for demolition, talking four flight crews into committing suicide, or maybe prewiring the planes as UAV's, hijacking them and crashing them ito the prewired targets, then having Osama ultrimately claim credit.
If you want to start a war, there are easier ways than killing 3000 citizens. You could assinate an Archduke for instance.
Even the Reichstag fire was set on a night when parliment was out of session.
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I can't think of any time when even three people could keep a juicy secret much less the hundreds that it would take to flesh out your nutball theory.
Ya know Lazs, I never thought of it like that.......not many people can keep a *truly juicy* secret. Would be really hard to find hundreds that can all in one place, probably impossible.
Heck, I know I have a hard time keeping a REALLY juicy secret myself :rofl
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't know... is the passport a tangible thing? Where are these "witnesses" that you believe? Why aren't they being interviewed so that I can get a look at em? Maybe you can convert me to whatever it is you conspiracy junkies call yourselves.
I think that taking the word of some lefty nutcase corner of the internet over all the other tangible evidence seems bizzare.... I think that conspiracies are bizzare.... I can't think of any time when even three people could keep a juicy secret much less the hundreds that it would take to flesh out your nutball theory.
lazs
There are plenty of examples (the USA including) when the military secrets are kept for several decades an even longer than that.
Sorry, I can't tell you about the secrets that died together with the people who knew them.
:D
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Originally posted by Elfie
Ya know Lazs, I never thought of it like that.......not many people can keep a *truly juicy* secret. Would be really hard to find hundreds that can all in one place, probably impossible.
Heck, I know I have a hard time keeping a REALLY juicy secret myself :rofl
Elfie, don't behave like a child.
Just tell us a little bit of your secret.
We won't tell anybody else.
C'mon, Elfie ! ;)
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Originally posted by genozaur
There are plenty of examples (the USA including) when the military secrets are kept for several decades an even longer than that.
Sorry, I can't tell you about the secrets that died together with the people who knew them.
:D
Name one.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Name one.
I can name one.....the absolute BEST kept secret of the US Army over the last 50 years......depleted uranium penetrators on the armor piercing rounds for the M-60 and M-1 tanks.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Elfie, don't behave like a child.
Just tell us a little bit of your secret.
We won't tell anybody else.
C'mon, Elfie ! ;)
I cant think of any secrets I am keeping Geno.....I spilled the beans on every secret :(
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Originally posted by Elfie
I can name one.....the absolute BEST kept secret of the US Army over the last 50 years......depleted uranium penetrators on the armor piercing rounds for the M-60 and M-1 tanks.
You should read Jane's Almanac a bit more often. You confuse "keeping a secret" with "became news after..."
Come on... just one secret. Not something that simply wasn't in the news... something that was actually kept from the news then revealed by the military later. Hell.. i knew about depleted uranium over 20 years ago... and that's only because I had a definate interest in the subject then. The information was out there, is out there and will always be out there.
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Everything that I read prior to Gulf War 1 was that the armor piercing rounds for the M-1 and M-60 tanks were made from tungsten steel. It wasnt until GW1 when Iraqi tanks were being blown to bits by American tanks that someone found out there were traces of radiation in the destroyed Iraqi tanks. After that the Army admitted the penetrators were not in fact tungsten steel but depleted uranium. At least that was information that I found..../shrug
At least I tryed to answer the question :D
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In 1970something the A-10 was introduced. What was the main selling point of this aircraft? What made it a tank buster?
Somehow, someone decided to put depleted uranium rounds into an aircraft bullet just out of the blue?
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Originally posted by Mini D
Name one.
Can I name two, pleeease?
The first is the US and New Zealand's governments and military violating the anti-nuclear status of New Zealand :
http://www.investigatemagazine.com/busted_June_2000.htm
The second is the Britain's nuclear research secret (mid 1930s - Feb.26,1952) :
http://commkey.net/fussichen/otdatom.htm
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Originally posted by genozaur
Can I name two, pleeease?
Boy the second one is still a secret.
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
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Originally posted by genozaur
The first is the US and New Zealand's governments and military violating the anti-nuclear status of New Zealand :
http://www.investigatemagazine.com/busted_June_2000.htm
And how was this kept secret?
They're nuclear submarines, one of the most stealthy inventions of modern times... and they were seen.
The media broke the story because the Military told them or because it was simply something that was impossible to keep secret?
Come now... you said there were 50 year old secrets revealed by the military. Share please. Not the military being "caught". That's not keeping a secret.The second is the Britain's nuclear research secret (mid 1930s - Feb.26,1952) :
http://commkey.net/fussichen/otdatom.htm
that link doesn't work, though I give you kudos on stretching this to be world militaries. Not enough examples of the U.S. military? Let me refresh your memory... if you're forgetting exactly what you said:
There are plenty of examples (the USA including) when the military secrets are kept for several decades an even longer than that.
Sorry, I can't tell you about the secrets that died together with the people who knew them.
All you've posted so far are situations that weren't kept secret very well at all.
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MiniD why?
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Originally posted by Mini D
In 1970something the A-10 was introduced. What was the main selling point of this aircraft? What made it a tank buster?
Somehow, someone decided to put depleted uranium rounds into an aircraft bullet just out of the blue?
While in the USAF as a weapons loader/mechanic I knew about the depleted uranium projectiles loaded on the A-10, I did not however know about the depleted uranium rounds used by our tanks.
*edit* I knew about the A-10's main selling point as a tank buster (it's 30mm cannon firing depleted uranium projectiles). Iirc the USAF staged a *show* for some skeptical congressmen. An A-10 loaded with Maverick missiles and it's gun demolished several tanks on a range, duly impressing the congressmen.
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Originally posted by indy007
A twin-engine F-16 with a radical new tail design. Neat. No wonder the person couldn't find any pictures of them, I couldn't find one on the internet either. For that matter, I can't really think of any combat aircraft in our inventory that match the eyewitness description. So, in an emergency, someone scrambled an all-white, top secret, unmarked military jet armed with sidewinders, from a hidden base in Pennsylvania, to shoot down a civilian passenger jet. Wow. Oh wait, it was the single-engine F-16s that shot it down, because they were in hot pursuit (so claimed by "anonymous" the ACT), even though they weren't seen in the area by the eyewitnesses.
I don't claim to know what happened, but wow, here's a toast to you JB88. May your underwear have far less holes in it than your theories.
Actually that discription sounds to me alot like a business jet.
The Gulfstream III thru V series has a T-tail, twin fuselage
mounted engines and winglets. Plus most of them are painted
largely white.
Other than the A-10, I'm not aware of any combat aircraft that
feature external engines. I also can't imagine why an "fighter"
would be painted white without markings. Why make your
sooper dooper CIA fighter look different from any other one?
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Originally posted by Rino
Actually that discription sounds to me alot like a business jet.
The Gulfstream III thru V series has a T-tail, twin fuselage
mounted engines and winglets. Plus most of them are painted
largely white.
Other than the A-10, I'm not aware of any combat aircraft that
feature external engines. I also can't imagine why an "fighter"
would be painted white without markings. Why make your
sooper dooper CIA fighter look different from any other one?
Is W still flying?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Boy the second one is still a secret.
Oops, Your Majesty!
:eek:
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Originally posted by Mini D
And how was this kept secret?
They're nuclear submarines, one of the most stealthy inventions of modern times... and they were seen.
The media broke the story because the Military told them or because it was simply something that was impossible to keep secret?
Come now... you said there were 50 year old secrets revealed by the military. Share please. Not the military being "caught". That's not keeping a secret. that link doesn't work, though I give you kudos on stretching this to be world militaries. Not enough examples of the U.S. military? Let me refresh your memory... if you're forgetting exactly what you said:
All you've posted so far are situations that weren't kept secret very well at all.
About violation of New Zealand's anti-nuclear status I can't add much but only label your view in this matter as being rediculous.
If media learns a secret, it's not a secret anymore. I agree with that.
But you swap the term 'secret' with another term 'kept secret', and after that bash me in the head with the rather strange supposition that THE REVEALED SECRET NEVER WAS A SECRET. C' mon, I'm not a baby to be tricked by you using the old inquisition wonder weapon of supplanting one notion with complitely different topic. I was talking about the EXISTENCE OF THE SECRETS KEPT UNDER WRAPS FOR LONG YEARS, EVEN FOR DECADES. But you are talking about THE INFORMATION THAT IS NOT KEPT SECRET BECAUSE IT BECAME KNOWN TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC.
Yeah, my neighbor's grandmother never was a
virgin because she' too old. :rofl
The website address fix for British nuclear secrets :
http://users.commkey.net/fussichen/otdatom.htm
It was working when I hotboted it.
And thirdly, there is the Atomic Veterans of America website which can be very very educational for you :
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/atomicveteran
(quote) "This Web Site is maintained by Atomic Veterans that were involved in nuclear testing. Contact information is also provided for filing claims with the U.S. Department of Justice, for those who were affected by fallout and radiation ...."
I have no time to look for the information on the aftereffects of the expolsure of American soldiers to Agent Orange. So help yourself.
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genozaur,
You're simply being obtuse for the sake of it.
The second link was full of "published papers" describing exactly what was going on. Once again, you are simply mistaken. The secrecy around the atomic bomb was achieved by keeping things very remote and very small in scale. Even the delivery of the bombs and the dropping of the ordinance exemplified that.
The thing is, anybody could have known this was going to happen... though maybe not the wheres and whens... but the atomic bomb was not a secret. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The trick was simply getting it to Japan and using it before people found out.
Nuclear submarines are not secret. The world knows they exist. The only way they can achieve secrecy is through complete isolation. Once they surface, once they dock, once they do anything but run very quietly under the ocean, the secret is out.
The skunkworks facilities operate under a principle of isolation in an attempt ot maintain secrecy. It is the only way they can even come close to it. The weak link in the armor is the simple fact that at some time they are going to have to test out the devices they built. They can do it at night, they can do it out in the middle of the desert, but they always run the risk of being seen. I'd seen my first 117 before a photo was ever released simply because we were stationed close to one of their flight corridors and they had an in-flight emergency that required an immediate landing. Word spread throughout the base that a top-secret jet was on it in no time.
So... you're saying that somehow, in the most densely populated portions of the U.S., in broad daylight and in complete and with complete and total secrecy amongst at least 4 branches of the government, this has been completely concealed? Dude... you're a moron. No if's ands or buts about it.
The links you provide only prove one thing: the military cannot keep a secret. It is simply impossible. Not one item you have listed shows that the military came forward with the information, or that they even managed to keep it a secret for a minimal amount of time. It just doesn't happen.
hell... you'd think they could have kept abu grahib a secret... there were only a handfull of soldiers involved in that one... but no. That just wasn't possible. In this day when the internet and anonymity are available to virtually everyone, there is no such thing as a secret. I know conspiracy theorists are going to have a hard time with this, but it's the simple truth.
This whole thing is full of anonymous testimony, mystery witnesses viewing mystery aircraft and completely conflicting testimony between at least half of the bullets listed. Yet, you're willing to grab onto it simply because the masses are always morons and believing contrary to them proves your smart. You're not. Give it a rest and move onto actually putting thought into something. This just isn't working.
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Get ready for some stiob MiniD... :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't know... is the passport a tangible thing? Where are these "witnesses" that you believe? Why aren't they being interviewed so that I can get a look at em? Maybe you can convert me to whatever it is you conspiracy junkies call yourselves.
I think that taking the word of some lefty nutcase corner of the internet over all the other tangible evidence seems bizzare.... I think that conspiracies are bizzare.... I can't think of any time when even three people could keep a juicy secret much less the hundreds that it would take to flesh out your nutball theory.
lazs
First of all, all I ever thoerized is that OBL had inside help in 911.
My witnesses are my eyes. I ask those who claim to know that 'everything is as they say, to explain certain things that seem impossible. But as you can see, never any evidence, any reasonable expalinations, just a challenge to prove my story.
My story hasnt led to $300,000,000,000.00 worth of wars and god knows how many dead, its those who weave the passport story that should prove it.
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You are surprised that people actually expect that YOU prove your bizzare conspiracy theories about the US govt having done 911 and blamed it on Osama to start a war in Afghanistan....
:rofl
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WhiteHawk, you are wasting your precious time on the guys (Mini&Grun) who pretend to be blockheads in order to stop any meaningful exchange of views in this thread.
You've been asking the same question several times, but instead of the answer, or at least their opinions/suppositions/facts/guesses, you are getting NOTHING.
Somewhere in these BBs I told a fable about how the corporate name 'Microsoft' was born. In the abridged variant it sounds like this: Billy comes home after work, his girlfriend greets him, but ...
Oops! she says, - It's so mini and soft !
If I just supplant the words 'mini and soft' with the nicknames 'Mini&Grun', the whole story will take a sharp turn to the far right.
:D :rofl
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Yes... grun and I work as a team. You can tell if you read all the thread that he and I post in together.
Either that, or it's painfully obvious to both of us based on completely independed conclusions that you are a moron. Of course, your last post is pretty much a confession to that fact.
The military keeps tons of secrets, you have proof. Yeppers... you walked yourself right into that one.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Yes... grun and I work as a team. You can tell if you read all the thread that he and I post in together.
Either that, or it's painfully obvious to both of us based on completely independed conclusions that you are a moron. Of course, your last post is pretty much a confession to that fact.
The military keeps tons of secrets, you have proof. Yeppers... you walked yourself right into that one.
MiniD, what's your rank? What branch of the military? MP?
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Dont know about MiniD, but I work for the NSA and my job is to supress these important facts from the public eye by confronting curageus individuals like you on various internet chat sites. We really are watching you.
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And I'm FBI... which shows what a stupid statement it was that you made about grun and I. Everyone knows the NSA and the FBI hate each other.
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At least, that's what we want em to beleive... eh grun?
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No comment.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Dont know about MiniD, but I work for the NSA and my job is to supress these important facts from the public eye by confronting curageus individuals like you on various internet chat sites. We really are watching you.
God is watching you.
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Originally posted by genozaur
God is watching you.
LOL does this genozaur guy take his lunatic rantings seriously....
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Originally posted by Mini D
And I'm FBI... which shows what a stupid statement it was that you made about grun and I. Everyone knows the NSA and the FBI hate each other.
Won't mean much when they get married. ;) :D
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Originally posted by genozaur
God is watching you.
why do I get the feeling you're talking about yourself here?
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whitehawk... the burden of proof is on you. The governments explanations seem reasonable to me... as reasonable as all they can be. since that is the case.... the people who have CONvinced you of the CONspiracy are to blame for my attitude.
You are all angry at us for not jumping on your conspiracy bandwagon but you give us.... nothing. phantom witnesses and theory.
It is not us that you should be mad at... it is the lefty whackos on your side that somehow convinced you that you should be mad at... Why waste time on us? Get the story to any of a number of lefty media sources (not a web site) and get this stuff out to the public on the airwaves and in the papers.
lazs
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So Lazs... you don't buy the Freemason / Scull and Bones / Bilderberger Group grand conspiracy?
How blind can you be?
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Wasn't kerry a member of "skull and bones" too?
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See how deep the conspiracy is?
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I think lazs put it best. Us "right wingers" arent the real enemy of you leftist conspiracy whackos, we just make fun of your nutty ideas... Your real enemy are the left wing journalists like Michele Moore, Dan Blather, everyone at the LA Times, NY Times and the Washington Post and the Democratic party who are willfully participating in this coverup. Really, coverup lackeys like Bob Woodward who sit always on their hot stories to protect the vast right conspracy should be strung up!!!!
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Originally posted by Mini D
Wasn't kerry a member of "skull and bones" too?
Nope Kerry was in the "Knee cap Hip bones" !!!
:D
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Originally posted by genozaur
Is W still flying?
:confused:
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Originally posted by genozaur
:confused:
Yes. Last I heard was that he just got qualified on a new super secret unmarked white painted trhree tailed twin engined fighter type.. Isn't that cool?
So which is it?
Bush the evil dumb goat story reader?
Or:
Bush the evil fighter pilot who shot down flight 93?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes. Last I heard was that he just got qualified on a new super secret unmarked white painted trhree tailed twin engined fighter type.. Isn't that cool?
So which is it?
Bush the evil dumb goat story reader?
Or:
Bush the evil fighter pilot who shot down flight 93?
No.
And:
No.
A silent hero doing his job.
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Originally posted by genozaur
No.
And:
No.
A silent hero doing his job.
But Bush did personally fly the fighter that shot down Flight 93? Is that what you mean?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I think lazs put it best. Us "right wingers" arent the real enemy of you leftist conspiracy whackos, we just make fun of your nutty ideas... Your real enemy are the left wing journalists like Michele Moore, Dan Blather, everyone at the LA Times, NY Times and the Washington Post and the Democratic party who are willfully participating in this coverup. Really, coverup lackeys like Bob Woodward who sit always on their hot stories to protect the vast right conspracy should be strung up!!!!
Right or left, East or West, home is best, - said the homing device. :D
© GNBS, 2005
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But Bush did personally fly the fighter that shot down Flight 93? Is that what you mean?
A possibility.
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Originally posted by genozaur
A possibility.
WOW.............thats a nice conspiracy thought!!
(Why didnt I come up with this theory??....man I suck in trolling)
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Originally posted by patrone
WOW.............thats a nice conspiracy thought!!
(Why didnt I come up with this theory??....man I suck in trolling)
:rofl
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LAUNCH FAILURE CAUSED BY GLITCH
The failure of an interceptor missile to launch during a Dec.15 test of the Pentagon's soon-to-be-activated missile defense system was caused by a "minor glitch" in its computer software, and the setback will not delay future testing, a senior official said yesterday.
Air Force Lt. Gen. Henry Obering, director of the Missile Defense Agency, said the test will be redone in mid-February, and additional tests in April, July and September will proceed as planned.
(AP) Jan. 13, 2005.
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Name 1 reason why they would cover up a shootdown of one of those hijacked planes? stupidest thread ever....
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Originally posted by Raider179
Name 1 reason why they would cover up a shootdown of one of those hijacked planes? stupidest thread ever....
Such a cover-up can be called today a PR mistake.
But in the situation on 9-11 with all that confusion and uncertainty such cover-up probably seemed to be necessary because of security reasons (the less the unknown enemy knows - the better for us).
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Yeah right Genozaur. So now its a pr error? I asked for a reason not an excuse.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Yeah right Genozaur. So now its a pr error? I asked for a reason not an excuse.
See the second line of my answer.
I'm not the one to be blamed if you can read only one line at a time.
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That is still not a valid reason. America would understand. No Cover up. If you think it is you probably also dont think we went to the moon. There is not only no evidence of that the plane was shot down to the contrary there is the cockpit voice recorder evidence where the terrorists say "end it now" and then the plane crashes as the passengers can be heard storming the cockpit. Unless you believe the families are lying about the tape.
Your thing about me not reading 2nd line was pathetic as is your case for a conspiracy. Have a nice day.
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Originally posted by Raider179
That is still not a valid reason. America would understand. No Cover up. If you think it is you probably also dont think we went to the moon. There is not only no evidence of that the plane was shot down to the contrary there is the cockpit voice recorder evidence where the terrorists say "end it now" and then the plane crashes as the passengers can be heard storming the cockpit. Unless you believe the families are lying about the tape.
Your thing about me not reading 2nd line was pathetic as is your case for a conspiracy. Have a nice day.
All things you said (part I) does not exclude the 'shot down' scenario.
My 'pathetic thing' (about you not reading beyond the 1st line) can be seen as a joke. Or maybe you always need to see a smily in order to grasp that what you read can be a joke ?
Don't be so overly serious ! You need to relax sometimes. I understand that this may be difficult for you with all those conspiracy theorists crowding behind your back.
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i would like to take this opportunity to offer a moment of respect to the longest thread that i have been a part of yet.
well done genozaur.
btw. what exactly is a genozaur?
if it bipedal or quad?
meat eating or carnivor?
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Originally posted by JB88
i would like to take this opportunity to offer a moment of respect to the longest thread that i have been a part of yet.
well done genozaur.
btw. what exactly is a genozaur?
if it bipedal or quad?
meat eating or carnivor?
Omnivor octoped. :D
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Originally posted by genozaur
All things you said (part I) does not exclude the 'shot down' scenario.
My 'pathetic thing' (about you not reading beyond the 1st line) can be seen as a joke. Or maybe you always need to see a smily in order to grasp that what you read can be a joke ?
Don't be so overly serious ! You need to relax sometimes. I understand that this may be difficult for you with all those conspiracy theorists crowding behind your back.
Yeah it does exclude it. The transcript of the last minute of the flight shows it was not shot down. The terrorists deliberately crash it and say as much on the tape.
as for the 2nd part save your jokes for happy hour. I took it as the insult it was intended as responded in kind.
Now back to your "theory"... I just went back and reread your posts and realized there is no point in further discussion. Believe what you want but at least have facts to back it up. The info you give and say proves it was shot down is nothing more than internet junk.
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Cant really see what the argument is about. So what if the goverment ordered a couple of Jets to take the Airliner out?
It presented a great threat in the hands of the hijackers.
And....I don´t blame if they want to hide it. To prevent the Mega-Multi Billion dollar sue that would unmisstakely follow its foot prints.
Just forget about it, the passangers died in a crash.
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Originally posted by patrone
Cant really see what the argument is about. So what if the goverment ordered a couple of Jets to take the Airliner out?
It presented a great threat in the hands of the hijackers.
And....I don´t blame if they want to hide it. To prevent the Mega-Multi Billion dollar sue that would unmisstakely follow its foot prints.
Just forget about it, the passangers died in a crash.
Actually, this discussion can be viewed as the attempt to promote the idea that some people still prefer truth over picturesque lie.
So stupid !
:rofl
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Like I said... you are talking to the wrong people... we don't care because your lefty nutbag internet weirdos and lefty media mogels are not getting your story out there.
They are the real enemies of conspiracy... the gutless pinkos... and now... even oliver stoned is moving to france.
bad times to be a tinfoil hat kinda guy.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Like I said... you are talking to the wrong people... we don't care because your lefty nutbag internet weirdos and lefty media mogels are not getting your story out there.
They are the real enemies of conspiracy... the gutless pinkos... and now... even oliver stoned is moving to france.
bad times to be a tinfoil hat kinda guy.
lazs
LAZS, I'm too right to be left. :D
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shouldn't the little green balloon head guy have a tinfoil hat on... just in case?
lazs
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It can't be stressed enough how important it is to have the shiny side pointing out.
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I have heard that the Concord was shot down by a sholder fired missle and France is covering the whole thing up.
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damn it rolex.... you are starting to make me mad..
How bout this? I am wearing an Omega watch right now and I believe that it is far superior to the poorly made rolex.
lazs
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Originally posted by NUKE
I have heard that the Concord was shot down by a sholder fired missle and France is covering the whole thing up.
http://www.gizmohighway.com/history/tu-144.htm
See also about the French military photographers on collision course under 'Tu-144' at Wikipedia (Internet encyclopedia).
Nuke, I'm so glad you've joined the ranks of 'shot-down theorists'. :D :aok :rofl